4917 Abuse of tourists for rentals
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 18:51:48 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Abuse of tourists for rentals
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I don't know of anywhere in the world that one can rent a fully
furnished apartment which includes cable tv, telephone, and internet for
the same price as a local can rent an empty apartment. A local person
furnishes the apartment (which includes buying your own refrigerator),
pays all the expenses, AND plans to stay for more than a couple of
months. Here in Buenos Aires to rent an apartment such as this one must
have a garantia. This means there needs to be real property to hold
against in the event the renter defaults. You also need to rent for 2
years. This is true regardless of where you are from, and it includes
Argentines.
If you don't have this, then you have to pay for the ENTIRE span of the
lease up front. SO, if you want to rent an empty apartment for a year,
you need to pay the whole year up front, plus deposit, plus the
commission for the real estate agent. This does not matter if you are
born and have lived in Buenos Aires your whole life or you are here from
another country.
I am not saying that some of the prices aren't a little high, but you
need to look at facts and not emotion. It costs to keep an apartment
nice. Believe me, I know. I rent two rooms in my apartment. I use
quality linens and towels. If something is damaged, I replace it. My
guests do not sleep on torn or stained sheets. The towels are not
threadbare. The TV works. I need to keep the plumbing in order. I have
a maid to keep the place clean. I have had guests stop up my toilet,
use so much toilet paper I thought they were eating it, destroy the
blinds in the bedrooms, lose the cell phone they are given, break
dishes, steal towels, (oh yes they do!)and many other things too
numerous to mention. In two years my apartment expenses have gone up,
my cable has almost doubled, and because people do not like to turn
lights off - my electric bill sometimes hits the sky.
I am not complaining. I rent my rooms as a business and because I
really do like having people stay with me. However, someone needs to
support the expenses I incur doing this. What that means is that I
charge more for a room in my apartment to a foreigner who is here for
usually a month or less, than I would for a person who would be here for
a year or longer - and of course they would supply their own sheets,
towels, etc. They would pay half the bills.
Let's be realistic. A hotel is usually around $65 a day or higher.
(Usually higher) A youth hostel is $30 a day ( a decent one) with a
private room. A nicely furnished apartment is less. My rooms are
less. Why is it people always want to complain about this? Why is this
such a problem with people only here in Argentina? I get so sick of
hearing people complain "I am being charged more for my accent:" Any
Argentine will tell you that a bad person is a bad person and he or she
will treat whoever they can bad - Argentine or foreign.
I used to live in Oakland California. Right across the bay from San
Francisco. A furnished studio apartment overlooking Lake Merritt rents
for about $900 a week. The same apartment rents unfurnished for $1500 a
month. I don't remember anyone ever complaining about this. In San
Francisco a furnished tourist apartment rents for $1200 a week The same
apartment rents for $1800 a month.
And while I am on a roll let me add one more thing. Inflation is
rampant here. Prices are skyrocketing. Every time I go to the store
something costs more. The same yogurt I bought 2 years ago for 79
centavos is now 1.69. Tango shoes that were 160 pesos 2 years ago are
now between 210 and 240. Restaurant prices, costs of milonga entrances,
taxis have gone up. Everything has gone up but salaries. I am still
making 25 pesos an hour teaching English. I live in a 1 to 1 economy. I
just love to hear people who come here with 3 to 1 and 4 to 1 money
complain that we are charging too much.
Alberto, shame on you. You ought to know better. That article about
the renters was filler for a Sunday.
No virus found in this outgoing message
Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (3.1.0.17 - 9.072.003).
https://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 02:05:28 -0500
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Abuse of tourists for rentals
To: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Hola Listeros,
Deby certainly makes realistic distinctions. Short-term rentals can
never be compared to long-term. Here in Vallarta an apartment that might
rent for $600 a month long-term (year's lease) will certainly go for at
least $500 per week or $80 per day short-term (high season). Al and I
rented a sweet tiny one-room apartment in Bs As in November in the
center of town for $600 US for a month. It was immaculate and
well-furnished with all conveniences such as a mate cup, phone, cable TV
and high-speed internet. That seemed beyond reasonable as a short-term
rental and we would hope to stay in the same place again the next time
we go. Some of the prices quoted in the previous posting seemed pretty
high, but there are various sources for Bs As rentals and an intelligent
consumer should be able to find a good deal. In every market people will
overcharge, a consumer of any product can research if (s)he wants to
avoid rip-offs.
A number of complaints and warnings about situations in Buenos Aires for
tango tourists seem to reflect simple naivete. Like don't walk down
Florida wearing a Rolex watch, or count your money walking out of a
bank. A couple of the scams described have been common for centuries.
The world is not always the same as one's hometown (other places are
often way more interesting and more fun, as well as maybe less secure!).
I remember going to New York City in the early '70s and all the dire
precautions that New York friends taught me. Pretty weird, walking only
in the middle of the street with keys in hand ready to lash out and
flee. A doorman on East 59th, not a bad neighborhood?) was freaked out
when I arrived in a taxi at 3:30 am: he literally yanked me out of the
cab and into the safety of the apartment building. However now whenever
I feel that the neighborhood isn't entirely friendly, those old New York
habits are useful. I understand that all this changed under Giuliani??
IMHO the best protection from street crime, in Buenos Aires, Paris, or
Indianapolis, is tango posture, a purposeful stride and a confident
demeanor (even the legendary Argentine arrogance). As for economic
rip-offs, do your homework.
Abrazos,
Barbara in Vallarta
,
Deby Novitz wrote:
>I don't know of anywhere in the world that one can rent a fully
>furnished apartment which includes cable tv, telephone, and internet for
>the same price as a local can rent an empty apartment. A local person
>furnishes the apartment (which includes buying your own refrigerator),
>pays all the expenses, AND plans to stay for more than a couple of
>months. Here in Buenos Aires to rent an apartment such as this one must
>have a garantia. This means there needs to be real property to hold
>against in the event the renter defaults. You also need to rent for 2
>years. This is true regardless of where you are from, and it includes
>Argentines.
>
>If you don't have this, then you have to pay for the ENTIRE span of the
>lease up front. SO, if you want to rent an empty apartment for a year,
>you need to pay the whole year up front, plus deposit, plus the
>commission for the real estate agent. This does not matter if you are
>born and have lived in Buenos Aires your whole life or you are here from
>another country.
>
>I am not saying that some of the prices aren't a little high, but you
>need to look at facts and not emotion. It costs to keep an apartment
>nice. Believe me, I know. I rent two rooms in my apartment. I use
>quality linens and towels. If something is damaged, I replace it. My
>guests do not sleep on torn or stained sheets. The towels are not
>threadbare. The TV works. I need to keep the plumbing in order. I have
>a maid to keep the place clean. I have had guests stop up my toilet,
>use so much toilet paper I thought they were eating it, destroy the
>blinds in the bedrooms, lose the cell phone they are given, break
>dishes, steal towels, (oh yes they do!)and many other things too
>numerous to mention. In two years my apartment expenses have gone up,
>my cable has almost doubled, and because people do not like to turn
>lights off - my electric bill sometimes hits the sky.
>
>I am not complaining. I rent my rooms as a business and because I
>really do like having people stay with me. However, someone needs to
>support the expenses I incur doing this. What that means is that I
>charge more for a room in my apartment to a foreigner who is here for
>usually a month or less, than I would for a person who would be here for
>a year or longer - and of course they would supply their own sheets,
>towels, etc. They would pay half the bills.
>
>Let's be realistic. A hotel is usually around $65 a day or higher.
>(Usually higher) A youth hostel is $30 a day ( a decent one) with a
>private room. A nicely furnished apartment is less. My rooms are
>less. Why is it people always want to complain about this? Why is this
>such a problem with people only here in Argentina? I get so sick of
>hearing people complain "I am being charged more for my accent:" Any
>Argentine will tell you that a bad person is a bad person and he or she
>will treat whoever they can bad - Argentine or foreign.
>
>I used to live in Oakland California. Right across the bay from San
>Francisco. A furnished studio apartment overlooking Lake Merritt rents
>for about $900 a week. The same apartment rents unfurnished for $1500 a
>month. I don't remember anyone ever complaining about this. In San
>Francisco a furnished tourist apartment rents for $1200 a week The same
>apartment rents for $1800 a month.
>
>And while I am on a roll let me add one more thing. Inflation is
>rampant here. Prices are skyrocketing. Every time I go to the store
>something costs more. The same yogurt I bought 2 years ago for 79
>centavos is now 1.69. Tango shoes that were 160 pesos 2 years ago are
>now between 210 and 240. Restaurant prices, costs of milonga entrances,
>taxis have gone up. Everything has gone up but salaries. I am still
>making 25 pesos an hour teaching English. I live in a 1 to 1 economy. I
>just love to hear people who come here with 3 to 1 and 4 to 1 money
>complain that we are charging too much.
>
>Alberto, shame on you. You ought to know better. That article about
>the renters was filler for a Sunday.
>
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message
>Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (3.1.0.17 - 9.072.003).
>https://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 09:16:52 +0200
From: " Christian L?then " <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Abuse of tourists for rentals
To: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
On 1 May 2007 at 2:05, Barbara Garvey wrote:
> IMHO the best protection from street crime, in Buenos Aires, Paris, or
> Indianapolis, is tango posture, a purposeful stride and a confident
> demeanor (even the legendary Argentine arrogance). As for economic
> rip-offs, do your homework.
> Abrazos,
> Barbara in Vallarta
Well said, Barbara!
You're absolutely right: people should just use their common senses!
My partner was in Bs.As. during 'the crisis', the demonstrations and
'riots'. Never felt unsafe ... as she knew about reasonable
comportment! If there's trouble arising; get away. So easy.
During my stay in Bs.As. I withdrawn 1000 Pesos from an ATM at my
neighbourhoods Subte Station. At the little outlet there I saw some
batteries I would need so I bought them. Suddenly I was
simultaneously (!) touched on my left hip and right shoulder ... =;-o ... I
immediately ducked and turned around ... to relieve: my young
personal tango teachers saying hello! They hadn't seen that I had just
gotten all that money out of the wall so they did not understand my
rapid reaction at first hand. ;-) Actually security personal of the Subte
station was allerted by my rapid movement but also realized that just
some friends were joking. All in all: i did not feel unsafe.
And of course I was aware of the risk taking that amoun out at once.
In these situations: in the worst case "just" handout the money to stay
uninjured.
People peeing their pants after 7 pm on the street in their local village
community should neither travel to Bs.As. nor any other town with
more than 150 inhabitants or any form of night life. ;-)
Take care, happy & safe dacing!
Chris
P.S.: During all my last stays in Bs.As. I usually felt more safe out on
the streets than out on the streets here in Rotterdam, The Netherlands.
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 01:30:43 +0200
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Abuse of tourists for rentals
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Dear Carol,
I 100% agree.
But as many people apparently misunderstood me (I received some mails in private), I must emphasize:
I simply made an observation, that with the excessive boom of the market, prices will soar and people with less money won't be able to afford these places, so the the article (published in Clar?n) should have concentrated more on that part. From the point of view of a local (who is not renting out apartments for tourists), this should be something to contemplate about.
I don't think it is a rip-off, I don't think that the difference means anything wrong. It find it somewhat ridiculous that I receive first class food and service in a restaurant for the price of a McDonalds meal (as in Hungary, which is approx. half as much as in London). Nevertheless, as I run a business myself, I do understand if something can be sold for twice as much, it will be. If there are enough people to pay twice as much for the same thing, those who can only afford half will be in trouble.
Of course it is off-topic, but is it? The same problem exists in the rates of tango teachers who travel. Some of them live outside Argentina, charging a 100?+ for a private lesson, or 20? for a group class. I know a few who started to tailor their rates to the countries they are travelling to: Argentine prices in Argentina, US prices in the US. Very sensible move - even if it does mean substantially less for them...of course, better "reach" means better overall recognition for them, so the difference can be considered "marketing expenses", but I my guess is that, the motives are also quite personal.
Cheers,
Aron
Wednesday, May 2, 2007, 1:27:17 PM, you wrote:
Shepherd> Not that I think this thread is really on-topic for tango (neither is
Shepherd> banking in Argentina, etc), but isn't this just market economics? BA is
Shepherd> no different than any other big city tourist destination -- prices can
Shepherd> vary by 1000% and several businesses make a living by taking advantage
Shepherd> of the tourist's lack of information. (That sounds like a business
Shepherd> opportunity for someone enterprising to make that information more
Shepherd> available so prices can be more competitive--and the Internet would be a
Shepherd> great place to make the information available to tourists planning to go
Shepherd> overseas).
Shepherd> If people in Argentina have figured out how to make good money off tango
Shepherd> tourists, kudos for them--Argentina desperately needs industries like
Shepherd> tourism to bring decent revenue into their economy.
Shepherd> Is this list about tango dancing, or is it about whinging that the world
Shepherd> is not fair? Nobody in BA owes anyone on this list a cheap place to
Shepherd> stay so they can study tango.
Shepherd> Ecsedy ?ron wrote:
>> I guess the biggest problem with the overcharging and the phenomenon Alberto described is not the general "ripped off" feeling of tourists, but the local economics of the situation.
>> If prices are pushed into the sky by tourists, and if they still feel that going to BsAs is a good deal for them, slowly certain BsAs real estate prices will reflect this extra value, which will essentially make the locals unable to buy or rent them.
>> Cheers,
>> Aron
--
Cheers,
Ecsedy mailto:aron@milonga.hu
