3944 Alberto is talking to himself
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:11:18 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Alberto is talking to himself
Since on ATOF this mailing list so often comes up as the subject, I've
decided to entertain you with some events at Argentine Tango Open Forum:
I've just been moderated out by our beloved Alberto Paz for simply
contributing to the list... (he especially disliked that I made a reference
to Uruguay concerning tango) For those not familiar with his achievements,
please search around in the Tango-L archives or just delete this message.
I've included the original message by him posted to himself (it is kinda
typical...) on the list, then my intended post, then the message I got from
him when he rejected the post (as the owner of the list).
The interesting part is that he just assured someone on the list less than
24 hours ago that on ATOF people are not censored (vs. Tango-L!!!):
" So feel
> special that in this forum we don't ban or unwelcome anybody
> on account of behavior.
>
> My take on your modest proposal was mostly offered as an
> antidote for some masochist, impressive and gullible lurker
> friends who are members of that illustrious list which,
> according to you, legislates behavior and bans or not welcome
> people according to some criteria which is contradictory,
> given the repulsive nature of the majority of its contents."
Obviously, I expected this much from him after what happened before on
Tango-L, so I am not upset. It is just plain funny.
Cheers,
Aron
********original post by AP
> -----Original Message-----
> From: argentine-tango@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:argentine-tango@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TangoMan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 7:12 PM
> To: ATOF
> Subject: [ATOF] Memo to self
>
> The Argentine tango was first conceived as the illegitimate
> child of the poor, the slaves, and the less-than-respectable
> members of a simmering socially challenged and
> disenfranchised class. By the time it became of age, it had
> grown into a respectable role model for a new generation of
> porteńos, the inhabitants of Buenos Aires, who took pride in
> the interpretation of the music, the versification of its
> songs and the crafting of a genial choreography that is
> purely based on the expression of emotions and the ritual of
> the embrace.
>
> Every porteńo claims it rightfully as their unique patrimony
> and their gift to the world. No claim is made though about
> the conglomerate of emotions, feelings and other traits that
> characterizes the human race.
>
> That is why people can embrace the Tango as their own
> anywhere, anytime. It’s a spontaneous love affair that no
> logical reasoning can define. Total strangers connecting at
> the floor level in a mystical realization that there is
> something that transcends rational thought to be shared.
>
> The tango already exists for the world to enjoy and have a
> life in it. It has so much to offer in a multidimensional
> sort of ways that one lifetime is not enough to go around at
> least once. That is why, intruders, poachers and scavengers
> who want to make it something else encounter rejection and
> face challenges. They are not thrilled with just being
> allowed to take the tango out of Argentina, they want to take
> the Argentina out of the tango.
>
> The tango ignites a kaleidoscopic array of emotions that
> includes sweet love, pure passion, blind faith, admiration,
> respect, friendship, jealousy, envy and oddly occasional
> spontaneous outbursts of hate. They all form part of the
> dynamics available to every single Tango community around the
> world. Good and bad emotions somehow find in the Tango a
> redeeming reason to exist within the truth or lie of the
> embrace because they all form part of the joy and sorrow of a
> brief life stopover on the way to eternal solitude.
>
> Alberto Paz
*****my (intended) post
> The Argentine tango was first conceived as the illegitimate child of
> the poor, the slaves, and the less-than-respectable members of a
> simmering socially challenged and
[...]
> grown into a respectable role model for a new generation of porteńos,
> the inhabitants of Buenos Aires, who took pride in
[...]
> the conglomerate of emotions, feelings and other traits that
> characterizes the human race.
[...]
> That is why people can embrace the Tango as their own anywhere,
> anytime. It’s a spontaneous love affair that no
I believe there is nothing mystical about this: tango has a little from the
values and vices of almost every social class, using the cultural heritage
of dozens of ethnicities, mixed in the pan of the developing Buenos Aires
and Montevideo, then later involving more than half the planet in the
process. No suprise people of any class and nationality will find something
interesting in it.
> face challenges. They are not thrilled with just being allowed to take
> the tango out of Argentina, they want to take the Argentina out of the
> tango.
Hmm. Ask the Uruguayans about that... :)) Anyway, I do not think that anyone
would want to take tango from Argentina, as these things don't belong to a
nation. It belongs to the people performing it - nationality does not really
play a role there. Just a few examples: ballet is a French made thing, it
was 'French' for centuries. However, a century ago nobody would have argued
that ballet is owned and ruled by the Russians... Or how about soccer? It is
British isn't it? Why do Argentines even bother to try? I mean: what they do
is not soccer then, I guess...
I think it is quite normal for any group to protect their interests if they
can. As the popular name of tango is not tango rioplatense or tango de
urugay, but argentine tango, the reaction is normal. However, I find it
strange in a sense: most good dancers are from Argentina, due to the
economic problems in AR and the strong government support this will probably
continue, not to mention the hunger for everything 'latin' and 'authentic'
in the Northern hemisphere. There is absolutely no need to link mystical
powers with an Argentine passport. Not the passport makes the dancer, but
the dancing...
Cheers,
Aron
****rejection message:
>I believe there is nothing mystical about this: tango has a little from
>the values and vices of almost every social class, using the cultural
>heritage of dozens of ethnicities, mixed in the pan of the developing
>Buenos Aires and Montevideo, then later involving more than half the
>planet in the process. No suprise people of any class and nationality
>will find something interesting in it.
You are entitled to believe anything that justifies your existence.
I, for one, have no time to listen to non sense such as ask the Uruguayans.
Especially when it comes mascaraded under a racist subtext which is no
longer accepted in civilized societies.
Argentina really hurts, don't cry for me ballerina...
Visit us,
https://www.planet-tango.blogspot.com/
https://www.planet-tango.com
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:37:24 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Alberto is talking to himself
Not defending Alberto Paz's behavior in any way,
I'd like to comment your comments on that, Aron.
Russian ballet earned honsety to be called Russian because it is French to
the last step!
Football ( Sorry, Americans, soccer, of course, but this is a world-wide
list ) is played everywhere, and everybody can compete because it is played
under the strict British-born rules.
While in tango I do not observe exactly the same respect to Argentinian
roots. I can see the opposite trend: Neo Tango.
Igor Polk.
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:58:50 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Alberto is talking to himself
Maybe I wasn't using 100% analogies, but you see that was not really my
point:
I was indicating that nationality and performance was not linked. I did not
dispute the preeminence of Argentine style/technique/traditions or alike. It
was just about being or not being Argentine.
> Russian ballet earned honsety to be called Russian because it
> is French to the last step!
Well. My ballet-history teachers don't agree. The Russians practically
created those rules in ballet in the late XIX. century (Vaganova-technique).
> Football ( Sorry, Americans, soccer, of course, but this is a
> world-wide list ) is played everywhere, and everybody can
> compete because it is played under the strict British-born rules.
You are right, but as I wrote it above it was not my point. However -
following your line of thought - you also agree that many other variations
of football games exist with different but somehow still similar rules.
> While in tango I do not observe exactly the same respect to
> Argentinian roots. I can see the opposite trend: Neo Tango.
Well, the in the US they love American Football... Here we don't even know
the rules. The British play cricket, in the States they play baseball. Here
in Hungary, we only see them in movies.
Don't forget: those rules and traditions remained because most people liked
them. Not because someone installed a dictatorship to keep the rules intact.
Cheers,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
Skype: ecsedyaron
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
https://www.milonga.hu/
"Follow those who seek the truth.
Run from those who claim to have found it."
"There is more than one way to cook an omlette."
"A quitter never wins and a winner never quits."
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:08:14 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Alberto is talking to himself
> > ... and oddly
> > occasional spontaneous outbursts of hate
Well, they are odd. Not nearly occasional enough, and
I guess I couldn't say if they were spontaneous.
Marisa
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:26:20 -0800
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Alberto is talking to himself
Dear Aron
Why do you guys constantly bother the list with your wrestlemania with Alberto? ;)
You are right, no one can own an art form. Best dancers are from Argentina not because 'they are poor', because they are GOOD, is it so difficult to accept?.
IL
Ecsedy Aron <aron@MILONGA.HU> wrote:Since on ATOF this mailing list so often comes up as the subject, I've
decided to entertain you with some events at Argentine Tango Open Forum:
I've just been moderated out by our beloved Alberto Paz for simply
contributing to the list... (he especially disliked that I made a reference
to Uruguay concerning tango) For those not familiar with his achievements,
please search around in the Tango-L archives or just delete this message.
I've included the original message by him posted to himself (it is kinda
typical...) on the list, then my intended post, then the message I got from
him when he rejected the post (as the owner of the list).
The interesting part is that he just assured someone on the list less than
24 hours ago that on ATOF people are not censored (vs. Tango-L!!!):
" So feel
> special that in this forum we don't ban or unwelcome anybody
> on account of behavior.
>
> My take on your modest proposal was mostly offered as an
> antidote for some masochist, impressive and gullible lurker
> friends who are members of that illustrious list which,
> according to you, legislates behavior and bans or not welcome
> people according to some criteria which is contradictory,
> given the repulsive nature of the majority of its contents."
Obviously, I expected this much from him after what happened before on
Tango-L, so I am not upset. It is just plain funny.
Cheers,
Aron
********original post by AP
> -----Original Message-----
> From: argentine-tango@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:argentine-tango@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TangoMan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 7:12 PM
> To: ATOF
> Subject: [ATOF] Memo to self
>
> The Argentine tango was first conceived as the illegitimate
> child of the poor, the slaves, and the less-than-respectable
> members of a simmering socially challenged and
> disenfranchised class. By the time it became of age, it had
> grown into a respectable role model for a new generation of
> porteqos, the inhabitants of Buenos Aires, who took pride in
> the interpretation of the music, the versification of its
> songs and the crafting of a genial choreography that is
> purely based on the expression of emotions and the ritual of
> the embrace.
>
> Every porteqo claims it rightfully as their unique patrimony
> and their gift to the world. No claim is made though about
> the conglomerate of emotions, feelings and other traits that
> characterizes the human race.
>
> That is why people can embrace the Tango as their own
> anywhere, anytime. Its a spontaneous love affair that no
> logical reasoning can define. Total strangers connecting at
> the floor level in a mystical realization that there is
> something that transcends rational thought to be shared.
>
> The tango already exists for the world to enjoy and have a
> life in it. It has so much to offer in a multidimensional
> sort of ways that one lifetime is not enough to go around at
> least once. That is why, intruders, poachers and scavengers
> who want to make it something else encounter rejection and
> face challenges. They are not thrilled with just being
> allowed to take the tango out of Argentina, they want to take
> the Argentina out of the tango.
>
> The tango ignites a kaleidoscopic array of emotions that
> includes sweet love, pure passion, blind faith, admiration,
> respect, friendship, jealousy, envy and oddly occasional
> spontaneous outbursts of hate. They all form part of the
> dynamics available to every single Tango community around the
> world. Good and bad emotions somehow find in the Tango a
> redeeming reason to exist within the truth or lie of the
> embrace because they all form part of the joy and sorrow of a
> brief life stopover on the way to eternal solitude.
>
> Alberto Paz
*****my (intended) post
> The Argentine tango was first conceived as the illegitimate child of
> the poor, the slaves, and the less-than-respectable members of a
> simmering socially challenged and
[...]
> grown into a respectable role model for a new generation of porteqos,
> the inhabitants of Buenos Aires, who took pride in
[...]
> the conglomerate of emotions, feelings and other traits that
> characterizes the human race.
[...]
> That is why people can embrace the Tango as their own anywhere,
> anytime. Its a spontaneous love affair that no
I believe there is nothing mystical about this: tango has a little from the
values and vices of almost every social class, using the cultural heritage
of dozens of ethnicities, mixed in the pan of the developing Buenos Aires
and Montevideo, then later involving more than half the planet in the
process. No suprise people of any class and nationality will find something
interesting in it.
> face challenges. They are not thrilled with just being allowed to take
> the tango out of Argentina, they want to take the Argentina out of the
> tango.
Hmm. Ask the Uruguayans about that... :)) Anyway, I do not think that anyone
would want to take tango from Argentina, as these things don't belong to a
nation. It belongs to the people performing it - nationality does not really
play a role there. Just a few examples: ballet is a French made thing, it
was 'French' for centuries. However, a century ago nobody would have argued
that ballet is owned and ruled by the Russians... Or how about soccer? It is
British isn't it? Why do Argentines even bother to try? I mean: what they do
is not soccer then, I guess...
I think it is quite normal for any group to protect their interests if they
can. As the popular name of tango is not tango rioplatense or tango de
urugay, but argentine tango, the reaction is normal. However, I find it
strange in a sense: most good dancers are from Argentina, due to the
economic problems in AR and the strong government support this will probably
continue, not to mention the hunger for everything 'latin' and 'authentic'
in the Northern hemisphere. There is absolutely no need to link mystical
powers with an Argentine passport. Not the passport makes the dancer, but
the dancing...
Cheers,
Aron
****rejection message:
>I believe there is nothing mystical about this: tango has a little from
>the values and vices of almost every social class, using the cultural
>heritage of dozens of ethnicities, mixed in the pan of the developing
>Buenos Aires and Montevideo, then later involving more than half the
>planet in the process. No suprise people of any class and nationality
>will find something interesting in it.
You are entitled to believe anything that justifies your existence.
I, for one, have no time to listen to non sense such as ask the Uruguayans.
Especially when it comes mascaraded under a racist subtext which is no
longer accepted in civilized societies.
Argentina really hurts, don't cry for me ballerina...
Visit us,
https://www.planet-tango.blogspot.com/
https://www.planet-tango.com
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 15:22:48 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Alberto is talking to himself
- Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM> escribis:
> Dear Aron
>Best
> dancers are from Argentina not because 'they are
> poor', because they are GOOD, is it so difficult to
> accept?.
The world also accepts that many of the best musicians
and conductors of the last and this century were
Hungarians.
Liszt, Bartok, Kodaly, von Dohnanyi, and on a lighter
note Kalman and Lehar...Szell, Solti, Ormandy,
Fricsay, Joachim, Szigeti, Geza Anda, Fisher, Lili
Kraus, Schiff and the list goes on and on.
Quite disproportionate and extraordinary for such a
small country.
Why? Tradition, Tradition, Tradition, good popular
music and excellent music schools.
Isn't it so, Aron?
Lucia ;->
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 01:03:42 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Alberto is talking to himself (OFF)
Dear Lucia,
Thank you for your obviously well meant intentions. However, I do not share
your optimism.
> >Best
> > dancers are from Argentina not because 'they are poor',
> because they
> >are GOOD, is it so difficult to accept?.
>
> The world also accepts that many of the best musicians and
> conductors of the last and this century were Hungarians.
Poor Ravel, Berlioz, Dvorak, Grieg, Rachmaninoff, Sibelius or Arturo
Toscanini, Karajan, Furtwangler, Karl Bohm, Leonard Bernstein, Mehta, Ozawa
...
Of course, there were many, many great Hungarian musicians. As we also had
several not so well known names, such as Neumann whose theories and models
are still form the basis for todays computers, or Ede Teller the inventor of
the hydrogen bomb (questionable fame though), or Bíró inventor of the
ballpoint pen, Leo Szilard inventing (but not building) the cyclotron,
linear accelerator, electron microscope, discovering the nuclear chain
reaction, and dreaming up the nuclear reactor...etc...etc...
This was due to many things, but the worst of all: the lack of
possibilities... That's why it is no wonder that most great Hungarians
became great OUTSIDE Hungary, or emmigrated at some point in their lives.
In any case: the link between being good at something and belonging to one
nation is not defendable - I hope we can agree on that. For example: I suck
at applied nuclear physics or music theory. Even if it would turn out that I
am any good at dancing maybe, I am still as Hungarian as an average
Argentine is Argentine: my father was born in present Ukraine, in a partly
German (Saxon), partly Carpathian-Slavic family with also a tint of Jewish
blood, my mother was half German (Svabisch), half Kun (that's a nomadic
ethinicity settling in the Carpathian Basin at the same time with
Hungarians).
> Liszt, Bartok, Kodaly, von Dohnanyi, and on a lighter note
> Kalman and Lehar...Szell, Solti, Ormandy, Fricsay, Joachim,
> Szigeti, Geza Anda, Fisher, Lili Kraus, Schiff and the list
> goes on and on.
>
> Quite disproportionate and extraordinary for such a small country.
It wasn't always that small. Not many foreigners know that before 1920
(Treaty of Trianon) the territory of the country was three times (that is
300%) bigger, with twice the population.
(Before this time in the middle ages (for a short period though) the
Hungarian crown even reached two seas: the Baltic and the Adriatic including
today's Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia along with a
smaller or bigger part of many other (present) countries such as Rumania,
Austria, Italy, Chech Republic, Ukraine.)
> Why? Tradition, Tradition, Tradition, good popular music and
> excellent music schools.
> Isn't it so, Aron?
Depends. Bartok and Kodaly were the ones who actually reinvented the meaning
of tradition. They did not follow the traditions of society. They reached
out for the folk culture in the last minute - just moment before modern life
made them disappear. However, Bartok was only using folk music to spice up
his music. It was something what Piazzolla did (actually, Astor said that he
did the same thing as Bartok or Dvorak did: used the music of his native
country to create his own music).
As for good popular music: popular music of recorded times fits quite well
to the international mainstream. Before that time popular music was todays
classical music (mainly opera, operetta) or was not really popular (regional
- folk).
Music schools: Kodaly was the one who created a new approach for teaching
music (based on the folk music of a nation) in the mid-20th century used in
many parts of the world today. Before that, Vienna was a greater power for
music. As for the Kodaly-method: most specialists say that it is a good
method to teach would-be musicians, but it is a failure to teach average
elementary school students.
Just to make it clear: I believe that Hungary as a nation is not a success
story. We were governed by non-Hungarian rulers and powers in our thousand
year history for almost 2/3 of the time. We were late with the building up
the class of citizens (vs. agrarian-feudal structure), to start
capitalisation, to introduce a parliamentary system, to introduce a
democracy (which happened only 15 years ago). We had successful individuals
created by an elitist approach of the society (on the surface) combined with
the lousy financial status and possibilities within Hungary - so they left
and became successful elsewhere. According to official estimates a Hungarian
diaspore worth half the population of Hungary all over the planet.
(sidenote: many of these successful Hungarians were Jewish who or whose
families emmigrated to avoid harassment then later: deportation).
In any way, I do not believe that these people became great composers,
conductors or inventors because they were Hungarians. Most of them were
motivated by many things, but in many case it was to be successful
_elsewhere_. Actually, for most artists and inventors it is STILL the way:
you have to score big, otherwise you gonna have to stay here and struggle.
Now it is not even necessarily about the money. We are not rich in Western
terms, but we are fine. The lack of possibilities is the problem.
Multinationals suck brains away (they can afford it), artist leave without
asking - in an era of reality shows, mass media and mass music art became an
almost exclusively state funded business (which has better things to do at
the moment). Art requires too much resources to create with no or little
profits to make.
So much about country image building.
Sorry for taking up your time
[az erős magyarérzelműektől, pedig elnézést kérek, nekem ez a privát
véleményem...]
Best wishes,
Aron
