4758 "Alternative" Music....
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:22:09 -0800
From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi,
When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what goes through my mind
is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily dance tango, vals
or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your mind a bit...and
hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love. Amazing song to dance
tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The Water is Wide, or the
ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of You.... All amazing
songs that are so danceable and perfect for Tango....
So am I wrong in thinking that this is 'alternative' music or is
there perhaps another meaning....
One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by other orchestras
doing classic or golden age tunes....???
Or another is something to Gotan Project, or NarcoTango or,
BalaTango....?
Can anyone enlighten ?
M i l e s.
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:48:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Miles,
Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango that you
might find interesting.
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what goes
> through my mind
> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily dance
> tango, vals
> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your mind a
> bit...and
> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
>
> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love. Amazing
> song to dance
> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The Water is
> Wide, or the
> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of You.... All
> amazing
> songs that are so danceable and perfect for Tango....
>
> So am I wrong in thinking that this is 'alternative'
> music or is
> there perhaps another meaning....
>
> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by other
> orchestras
> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
>
> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or NarcoTango
> or,
> BalaTango....?
>
> Can anyone enlighten ?
>
> M i l e s.
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Want to start your own business?
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:02:06 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
format="flowed"
Hi, Miles, Trini, and everyone,
I am sorry, but the discussion about the "alternative" music always
gets me and I can't not get into it. Serious impulse control problems!
Alternative music for tango is an invention of feverish foreign
(non-Argentine) minds. Tango is a dance that is danced 2x4. But if
you dance it to anything other tango music, meaning tango music that
is POLYPHONIC is its formation, it is NOT tango, but some other dance,
originated outside of Argentina, that is only based on Argentine Tango
moves.
If you ask Argentines what they consider to be "alternative" tango
music, some who think of music will say "Piazzolla". Others who think
lyrics will name singers and songs from Rock Nacional genre, because
those lyrics are just like las letras de tango.
Best,
Nina
Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>:
> Hi Miles,
>
> Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango that you
> might find interesting.
> https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
> --- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what goes
>> through my mind
>> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily dance
>> tango, vals
>> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your mind a
>> bit...and
>> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
>>
>> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love. Amazing
>> song to dance
>> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The Water is
>> Wide, or the
>> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of You.... All
>> amazing
>> songs that are so danceable and perfect for Tango....
>>
>> So am I wrong in thinking that this is 'alternative'
>> music or is
>> there perhaps another meaning....
>>
>> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by other
>> orchestras
>> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
>>
>> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or NarcoTango
>> or,
>> BalaTango....?
>>
>> Can anyone enlighten ?
>>
>> M i l e s.
>>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
> https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
>
>
>
>
> Want to start your own business?
>
Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>:
> Hi Miles,
>
> Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango that you
> might find interesting.
> https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
> --- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what goes
>> through my mind
>> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily dance
>> tango, vals
>> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your mind a
>> bit...and
>> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
>>
>> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love. Amazing
>> song to dance
>> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The Water is
>> Wide, or the
>> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of You.... All
>> amazing
>> songs that are so danceable and perfect for Tango....
>>
>> So am I wrong in thinking that this is 'alternative'
>> music or is
>> there perhaps another meaning....
>>
>> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by other
>> orchestras
>> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
>>
>> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or NarcoTango
>> or,
>> BalaTango....?
>>
>> Can anyone enlighten ?
>>
>> M i l e s.
>>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
> https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
>
>
>
>
> Want to start your own business?
>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:26:39 -0800
From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Nina,
>Alternative music for tango is an invention of feverish foreign
>(non-Argentine) minds. Tango is a dance that is danced 2x4. But if
>you dance it to anything other tango music, meaning tango music that
>is POLYPHONIC is its formation, it is NOT tango, but some other dance,
>originated outside of Argentina, that is only based on Argentine Tango
>moves.
Ok...so why is it NOT Tango ? Let me be clear in my question here
Nina. I respect your opinion but I think you're not allowing for the
dance to grow and to change. Keeping the dance tied to one specific
genre of music when that music is no longer being created on a
regular basis the way it was about 50 years ago (again remember I'm
just a neophyte, what do I know), then I think you're not allowing
for the possibility that the dance will change accordingly (and it is
changing). Look at what happened with Tango itself, it is the child
of a much older dance, Canyengue, where the music is somewhat similar
to what we would consider 'milonga' today. Whereas today's Tango is
more refined and as is the music the accompanies it. So is it
stretch of the imagination that 10 years from now...what we consider
alternative music will become a staple diet of tango music ? And
that the dance you are dancing it to is in fact Tango ?
>If you ask Argentines what they consider to be "alternative" tango
>music, some who think of music will say "Piazzolla". Others who think
>lyrics will name singers and songs from Rock Nacional genre, because
>those lyrics are just like las letras de tango.
And if memory serves Piazzolla was a 'rebel' in his day as well, and
most didn't consider his music 'tango' music either.
And now its a staple diet of 'golden age' tango music.
Best,
Nina
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:30:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Nina,
I am sorry, but people speaking in absolutes about
alternative tango music, women leading, etc, always
gets me. I have similar impulse control problems.
Who died and made you arbiter of what is and is not
tango? I really don't care if Gardel visited you from
the grave and gave you a tablet with The Rules, it's a
freaking dance. An entirely subjective art form. It
is whatever people make it, and whatever people mutate
it to be over time. If it hadn't already mutated, it
never would have come into being, started
incorporating milonga or vals, or adding additional
steps. What you're insisting is like demanding that
we only speak Latin. You tango purists sound like
religious fundamentalists. It's just not practical,
and to me, it comes off as snobby and narrow minded.
Kat
--- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
> Hi, Miles, Trini, and everyone,
>
> I am sorry, but the discussion about the
> "alternative" music always
> gets me and I can't not get into it. Serious
> impulse control problems!
>
> Alternative music for tango is an invention of
> feverish foreign
> (non-Argentine) minds. Tango is a dance that is
> danced 2x4. But if
> you dance it to anything other tango music, meaning
> tango music that
> is POLYPHONIC is its formation, it is NOT tango, but
> some other dance,
> originated outside of Argentina, that is only based
> on Argentine Tango
> moves.
>
> If you ask Argentines what they consider to be
> "alternative" tango
> music, some who think of music will say "Piazzolla".
> Others who think
> lyrics will name singers and songs from Rock
> Nacional genre, because
> those lyrics are just like las letras de tango.
>
> Best,
>
> Nina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
> <patangos@yahoo.com>:
>
> > Hi Miles,
> >
> > Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango
> that you
> > might find interesting.
> > https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
> >
> > Trini de Pittsburgh
> >
> > --- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what
> goes
> >> through my mind
> >> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily
> dance
> >> tango, vals
> >> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your
> mind a
> >> bit...and
> >> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
> >>
> >> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love.
> Amazing
> >> song to dance
> >> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The
> Water is
> >> Wide, or the
> >> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of
> You.... All
> >> amazing
> >> songs that are so danceable and perfect for
> Tango....
> >>
> >> So am I wrong in thinking that this is
> 'alternative'
> >> music or is
> >> there perhaps another meaning....
> >>
> >> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by
> other
> >> orchestras
> >> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
> >>
> >> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or
> NarcoTango
> >> or,
> >> BalaTango....?
> >>
> >> Can anyone enlighten ?
> >>
> >> M i l e s.
> >>
> >
> >
> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> > Want to start your own business?
> >
>
>
>
>
> Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
> <patangos@yahoo.com>:
>
> > Hi Miles,
> >
> > Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango
> that you
> > might find interesting.
> > https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
> >
> > Trini de Pittsburgh
> >
> > --- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what
> goes
> >> through my mind
> >> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily
> dance
> >> tango, vals
> >> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your
> mind a
> >> bit...and
> >> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
> >>
> >> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love.
> Amazing
> >> song to dance
> >> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The
> Water is
> >> Wide, or the
> >> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of
> You.... All
> >> amazing
> >> songs that are so danceable and perfect for
> Tango....
> >>
> >> So am I wrong in thinking that this is
> 'alternative'
> >> music or is
> >> there perhaps another meaning....
> >>
> >> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by
> other
> >> orchestras
> >> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
> >>
> >> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or
> NarcoTango
> >> or,
> >> BalaTango....?
> >>
> >> Can anyone enlighten ?
> >>
> >> M i l e s.
> >>
> >
> >
> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> > Want to start your own business?
>
=== message truncated ===
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:43:52 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
format="flowed"
Hi, Miles,
I have no problem with people dancing tango moves to whatever music they want.
I do have a problem when they call it "Argentine Tango" because there
is nothing Argentine about it.
One major difference between foreign and Argentine tango dancers is
that for Argentines, tango is about the music and for foreigners it is
about the movement. This is the reason WHY dancing with Argentine men
is so very special. Putting movements to whatever music might be a
nice intellectual exercise, but it is not tango and no Argentine
dancer, including social and professional dancers will ever call it
that.
What makes tango music special and unique is its formation - many
intertwined voices of instruments and many overlapping rhythms. It is
music that makes tango tango, not the movements.
Historically, it was the orchestras that changed the music and,
subsequently the dance has changed, particularly Julio de caro and
Miguel Calo. The movements of the dance, such as the turns, followed
the changes in the music.
Many foreign dancers do not understand that the dance, in this case,
follows the music and perceive Argentine tango being about the moves,
and that is where the confusion arrives.
Again, people can dance to whatever music, but it is not Argentine
Tango. Maybe someone should invent a name for this dance that is
danced outside of Argentina to all other music. That way we can carry
on a discussion without constrantly debating the definitions.
Best regards to all,
Nina
Quoting m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>:
> Nina,
>
> >Alternative music for tango is an invention of feverish foreign
> >(non-Argentine) minds. Tango is a dance that is danced 2x4. But if
> >you dance it to anything other tango music, meaning tango music that
> >is POLYPHONIC is its formation, it is NOT tango, but some other dance,
> >originated outside of Argentina, that is only based on Argentine Tango
> >moves.
>
> Ok...so why is it NOT Tango ? Let me be clear in my question here
> Nina. I respect your opinion but I think you're not allowing for the
> dance to grow and to change. Keeping the dance tied to one specific
> genre of music when that music is no longer being created on a
> regular basis the way it was about 50 years ago (again remember I'm
> just a neophyte, what do I know), then I think you're not allowing
> for the possibility that the dance will change accordingly (and it is
> changing). Look at what happened with Tango itself, it is the child
> of a much older dance, Canyengue, where the music is somewhat similar
> to what we would consider 'milonga' today. Whereas today's Tango is
> more refined and as is the music the accompanies it. So is it
> stretch of the imagination that 10 years from now...what we consider
> alternative music will become a staple diet of tango music ? And
> that the dance you are dancing it to is in fact Tango ?
>
> >If you ask Argentines what they consider to be "alternative" tango
> >music, some who think of music will say "Piazzolla". Others who think
> >lyrics will name singers and songs from Rock Nacional genre, because
> >those lyrics are just like las letras de tango.
>
> And if memory serves Piazzolla was a 'rebel' in his day as well, and
> most didn't consider his music 'tango' music either.
>
> And now its a staple diet of 'golden age' tango music.
>
> Best,
>
> Nina
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:48:30 -0800 (PST)
From: DayLightPix <daylightpix@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
Definition of alternative music differs depends on who
you ask. For many, there is a wide range of music
suitable for tango dancing that encompassing a
spectrum:
Classic tango songs by classic tango orchestras on one
end, while non-tango songs not-made-for-tango-dancing,
which may be suitable for dancing is on the other end,
and other variety of music in the middle. People?s
opinions differ on what?s danceable/alternative. For
some people, only alternative music are danceable,
while the really traditionists do not want to hear
anything but music older than 50 years and alternative
music are definitely not danceable. Most people are in
the middle.
Nobody is wrong for having their personal choices,
it?s just that people have different tastes and
expectations. Before the flame wars, consider this:
the more range of music there is, more people will be
interested in dancing, the larger the group, the more
potential there is for better dancers. The energy
discussing your own one-sided opinion, not facts, can
be better spent enjoying yourself, or to promote your
favorite kind of tango to get more people started with
dancing tango. Or go DJ yourself and see how people
like your music.
Anyway, here is what I think of the danceability
spectrum, in a very rough order.
-Classic tango songs by classic tango orchestras
-Classic tango songs played almost note for note by
more recent or current orchestras
-New compositions of argentine tango music following
classic tango rules with tempo and feeling familiar to
classic tangos,
-Classic tango songs arranged for non-typical-tango
instruments,
-Classic songs arranged differently but with
underlying melody by non-golden age orchestras.
-New compositions of argentine tango music with new
tempo and new feeling, but incorporating some elements
of classic tangos.
-Non-traditional tango music made for dancing
-Non-tango music not made for tango dancing (but
danceable by majority of dancers)
-Non-tango music not made for tango dancing (but
viewed undanceable by overwhelming majority of
dancers)
-And beyond danceable, Challenging to dance to songs
by classic tango orchestras or musicians of any
period, for example, songs by classic tango orchestras
for listening. Almost no dancers can dance to these
songs.
People are always going to have different opinions of
what?s traditional music and what?s alternative music.
Like any kind of art, there is evolution as more ideas
are introduced. The music selection cannot stand
still.
Anyway, I think DJs should find the audience?s taste,
and play something suitable for the audience, but not
the same-old-same-old.
David
www.tangolounge.org
--- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what goes
> through my mind
> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily
> dance tango, vals
> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your
> mind a bit...and
> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
>
> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love.
> Amazing song to dance
> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The
> Water is Wide, or the
> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of You....
> All amazing
> songs that are so danceable and perfect for
> Tango....
>
> So am I wrong in thinking that this is 'alternative'
> music or is
> there perhaps another meaning....
>
> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by
> other orchestras
> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
>
> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or
> NarcoTango or,
> BalaTango....?
>
> Can anyone enlighten ?
>
> M i l e s.
>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:56:06 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
format="flowed"
Hi, Kat,
No problem! Dance to whatever you want, however you want. Just do
not call it Argentine Tango, because if you do, you insult the music,
the culture, the Argentine dancers who have created and evolved the
dance and everyone who actually understands, respects, honors and
dances the Argentine Tango.
You can be rude all you want and reel in your own subjective art form.
Argentine Tango has a legacy and is based on respect of its history,
music and its people.
Ignorant foreigners who decide to recreate their own version and still
call it Argentine Tango are liars in words and in dance.
Best,
Nina
Quoting Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com>:
> Nina,
>
> I am sorry, but people speaking in absolutes about
> alternative tango music, women leading, etc, always
> gets me. I have similar impulse control problems.
>
> Who died and made you arbiter of what is and is not
> tango? I really don't care if Gardel visited you from
> the grave and gave you a tablet with The Rules, it's a
> freaking dance. An entirely subjective art form. It
> is whatever people make it, and whatever people mutate
> it to be over time. If it hadn't already mutated, it
> never would have come into being, started
> incorporating milonga or vals, or adding additional
> steps. What you're insisting is like demanding that
> we only speak Latin. You tango purists sound like
> religious fundamentalists. It's just not practical,
> and to me, it comes off as snobby and narrow minded.
>
> Kat
>
> --- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Miles, Trini, and everyone,
>>
>> I am sorry, but the discussion about the
>> "alternative" music always
>> gets me and I can't not get into it. Serious
>> impulse control problems!
>>
>> Alternative music for tango is an invention of
>> feverish foreign
>> (non-Argentine) minds. Tango is a dance that is
>> danced 2x4. But if
>> you dance it to anything other tango music, meaning
>> tango music that
>> is POLYPHONIC is its formation, it is NOT tango, but
>> some other dance,
>> originated outside of Argentina, that is only based
>> on Argentine Tango
>> moves.
>>
>> If you ask Argentines what they consider to be
>> "alternative" tango
>> music, some who think of music will say "Piazzolla".
>> Others who think
>> lyrics will name singers and songs from Rock
>> Nacional genre, because
>> those lyrics are just like las letras de tango.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Nina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
>> <patangos@yahoo.com>:
>>
>> > Hi Miles,
>> >
>> > Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango
>> that you
>> > might find interesting.
>> > https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
>> >
>> > Trini de Pittsburgh
>> >
>> > --- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what
>> goes
>> >> through my mind
>> >> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily
>> dance
>> >> tango, vals
>> >> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your
>> mind a
>> >> bit...and
>> >> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
>> >>
>> >> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love.
>> Amazing
>> >> song to dance
>> >> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The
>> Water is
>> >> Wide, or the
>> >> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of
>> You.... All
>> >> amazing
>> >> songs that are so danceable and perfect for
>> Tango....
>> >>
>> >> So am I wrong in thinking that this is
>> 'alternative'
>> >> music or is
>> >> there perhaps another meaning....
>> >>
>> >> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by
>> other
>> >> orchestras
>> >> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
>> >>
>> >> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or
>> NarcoTango
>> >> or,
>> >> BalaTango....?
>> >>
>> >> Can anyone enlighten ?
>> >>
>> >> M i l e s.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
>> most popular social dance.
>> > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> > Want to start your own business?
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
>> <patangos@yahoo.com>:
>>
>> > Hi Miles,
>> >
>> > Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango
>> that you
>> > might find interesting.
>> > https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
>> >
>> > Trini de Pittsburgh
>> >
>> > --- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what
>> goes
>> >> through my mind
>> >> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily
>> dance
>> >> tango, vals
>> >> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your
>> mind a
>> >> bit...and
>> >> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
>> >>
>> >> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love.
>> Amazing
>> >> song to dance
>> >> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The
>> Water is
>> >> Wide, or the
>> >> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of
>> You.... All
>> >> amazing
>> >> songs that are so danceable and perfect for
>> Tango....
>> >>
>> >> So am I wrong in thinking that this is
>> 'alternative'
>> >> music or is
>> >> there perhaps another meaning....
>> >>
>> >> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by
>> other
>> >> orchestras
>> >> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
>> >>
>> >> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or
>> NarcoTango
>> >> or,
>> >> BalaTango....?
>> >>
>> >> Can anyone enlighten ?
>> >>
>> >> M i l e s.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
>> most popular social dance.
>> > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> > Want to start your own business?
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
> TV dinner still cooling?
> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:17:26 -0500
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: nina@earthnet.net, tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Nina, Kat, and everybody else!
It's interesting to see the "alternative tango" discussion bocome a topic.
Personally, I don't have a problem with people dancing in anyway they like
to any muisc they want. However, like Nina I strenuously object to labeling
it as Argentine Tango or even just tango. For me the real tango (yes, there
is a real, genuine tango) is a wonderful thing. The music is inextricably
joined to the dance. IMHO, Argentine tango is a very specific dance done to
very specific music. I love the music, I love the lyrics and the melodies.
Sure, I can perform practically all the tango steps very rhythmically to a
variety of musical genres (oddly enough, the so called neo-tango or the most
commonly played alternative music is the least appropriate for traditional
tango steps). One can easily do half turns to the left and right, ocho
cortado and other tango steps to the rhythm of Bachata and Salsa. The
problem for me is that the whole flavor of the tango is missing along with
the tango music.
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:56:06 -0700
>
>Hi, Kat,
>
>No problem! Dance to whatever you want, however you want. Just do
>not call it Argentine Tango, because if you do, you insult the music,
>the culture, the Argentine dancers who have created and evolved the
>dance and everyone who actually understands, respects, honors and
>dances the Argentine Tango.
>
>You can be rude all you want and reel in your own subjective art form.
>Argentine Tango has a legacy and is based on respect of its history,
>music and its people.
>
>Ignorant foreigners who decide to recreate their own version and still
>call it Argentine Tango are liars in words and in dance.
>
>Best,
>
>Nina
>
>
>
>Quoting Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com>:
>
> > Nina,
> >
> > I am sorry, but people speaking in absolutes about
> > alternative tango music, women leading, etc, always
> > gets me. I have similar impulse control problems.
> >
> > Who died and made you arbiter of what is and is not
> > tango? I really don't care if Gardel visited you from
> > the grave and gave you a tablet with The Rules, it's a
> > freaking dance. An entirely subjective art form. It
> > is whatever people make it, and whatever people mutate
> > it to be over time. If it hadn't already mutated, it
> > never would have come into being, started
> > incorporating milonga or vals, or adding additional
> > steps. What you're insisting is like demanding that
> > we only speak Latin. You tango purists sound like
> > religious fundamentalists. It's just not practical,
> > and to me, it comes off as snobby and narrow minded.
> >
> > Kat
> >
> > --- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi, Miles, Trini, and everyone,
> >>
> >> I am sorry, but the discussion about the
> >> "alternative" music always
> >> gets me and I can't not get into it. Serious
> >> impulse control problems!
> >>
> >> Alternative music for tango is an invention of
> >> feverish foreign
> >> (non-Argentine) minds. Tango is a dance that is
> >> danced 2x4. But if
> >> you dance it to anything other tango music, meaning
> >> tango music that
> >> is POLYPHONIC is its formation, it is NOT tango, but
> >> some other dance,
> >> originated outside of Argentina, that is only based
> >> on Argentine Tango
> >> moves.
> >>
> >> If you ask Argentines what they consider to be
> >> "alternative" tango
> >> music, some who think of music will say "Piazzolla".
> >> Others who think
> >> lyrics will name singers and songs from Rock
> >> Nacional genre, because
> >> those lyrics are just like las letras de tango.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Nina
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
> >> <patangos@yahoo.com>:
> >>
> >> > Hi Miles,
> >> >
> >> > Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango
> >> that you
> >> > might find interesting.
> >> > https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
> >> >
> >> > Trini de Pittsburgh
> >> >
> >> > --- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >>
> >> >> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what
> >> goes
> >> >> through my mind
> >> >> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily
> >> dance
> >> >> tango, vals
> >> >> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your
> >> mind a
> >> >> bit...and
> >> >> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
> >> >>
> >> >> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love.
> >> Amazing
> >> >> song to dance
> >> >> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The
> >> Water is
> >> >> Wide, or the
> >> >> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of
> >> You.... All
> >> >> amazing
> >> >> songs that are so danceable and perfect for
> >> Tango....
> >> >>
> >> >> So am I wrong in thinking that this is
> >> 'alternative'
> >> >> music or is
> >> >> there perhaps another meaning....
> >> >>
> >> >> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by
> >> other
> >> >> orchestras
> >> >> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
> >> >>
> >> >> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or
> >> NarcoTango
> >> >> or,
> >> >> BalaTango....?
> >> >>
> >> >> Can anyone enlighten ?
> >> >>
> >> >> M i l e s.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> >> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> >> most popular social dance.
> >> > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >> > Want to start your own business?
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
> >> <patangos@yahoo.com>:
> >>
> >> > Hi Miles,
> >> >
> >> > Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango
> >> that you
> >> > might find interesting.
> >> > https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
> >> >
> >> > Trini de Pittsburgh
> >> >
> >> > --- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >>
> >> >> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what
> >> goes
> >> >> through my mind
> >> >> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily
> >> dance
> >> >> tango, vals
> >> >> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your
> >> mind a
> >> >> bit...and
> >> >> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
> >> >>
> >> >> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love.
> >> Amazing
> >> >> song to dance
> >> >> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The
> >> Water is
> >> >> Wide, or the
> >> >> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of
> >> You.... All
> >> >> amazing
> >> >> songs that are so danceable and perfect for
> >> Tango....
> >> >>
> >> >> So am I wrong in thinking that this is
> >> 'alternative'
> >> >> music or is
> >> >> there perhaps another meaning....
> >> >>
> >> >> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by
> >> other
> >> >> orchestras
> >> >> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
> >> >>
> >> >> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or
> >> NarcoTango
> >> >> or,
> >> >> BalaTango....?
> >> >>
> >> >> Can anyone enlighten ?
> >> >>
> >> >> M i l e s.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> >> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> >> most popular social dance.
> >> > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >> > Want to start your own business?
> >>
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > TV dinner still cooling?
> > Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
> >
>
>
>
>
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Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:35:00 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I agree with Miles.
For me alternative music is any other music than classical tango I can dance
Tango, Milonga, Canyengue and everything else what comes to mind and have
fun. With the exception of Valtz. I can not dance tango vals to non-tango
valtz music. It just does not go.
That is personal.
But "Alternative music" has another meaning. It is music specially choosen
to suit the style of dancing at alternative milogas - Neo Tango, Nuevo
Milonguero. Mostly it is tailored to the specific style, one of many of
tango styles we know now.
Yes that is true what Sharna Fabiano said that this sort of "Alternative"
music, milongas is mostly tailored to, expected, and attended by young
people, but that does not mean that classical tango is forgotten and no
suitable to young crowd. Many of them just plainly do not know how to dance
to classical tango music ( say Argentinean ). ( Interesting, that their
teachers know very well how to dance classical tango. ) Once they become
familiar with it - they appreciate it.
I guess there are people who think that modern sounds in modern
"alternative" music can smooth pop- and rock- and rap- accustomed youngsters
to the reachness of classical tango ( which is similar to classical music -
no one said that it is "obsolete" and "too old" ).
I do not know. May be..
Igor.
Some notes to students.
1. Tango has specific rhythm and feel. You can not learn real tango to
non-tango music. It is impossible. It the same that you can not learn Waltz
to non waltz music, you can not learn Salsa to non-Salsa music. If you learn
and dance to non-Tango music - it is not tango. Exactly. "Evolution". It has
a lot to do with it. New specie is not the old specie. "Evolution" is about
appearance of new species. It is different than "Progress".
It is not the problem that Tango music is old. It is the problem that modern
musicians do not write Tango music ( rather are unable to because of absence
of appropriate musical abilities ). They write something else with some
tango feel.
2. Canyengue is not Milonga. Not even close to.
3. Piazzolla wrote an alternative tango music exactly because he was a
rebel. Otherwise it would be tango music, isn't it?
==========
Yes Nina, it is not tango. It is Neo Tango, Alternative Tango.
This is not tango, as you can not call a dance Valtz if it is danced to
non-Valtz rhythm.
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:15:56 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
Putting movements to whatever music might be a nice
intellectual exercise, but it is not tango and no Argentine
dancer, including social and professional dancers will ever
call it that.
Hmmm...did anyone remind Luciana Valle, Andres Amarilla, El
Pulpo or Chicho of that? :)
"The times - they are a'changing"
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:24:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> writes:
>
> And if memory serves Piazzolla was a 'rebel' in his day as
> well, and most didn't consider his music 'tango' music either.
>
> And now it's a staple diet of 'golden age' tango music.
Huh? No it isn't.
Huck
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:25:56 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
format="flowed"
Hmmm... did these dancers actually announce that they were dancing
"Argentine tango"? Just because they are Argentine does not mean that
they cannot take some artistic license and dance whatever they want to
whatever music they want. But did they call it Argentine tango? Has
anyone ever asked them?
Nina
Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>:
>
> --- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
>
> Putting movements to whatever music might be a nice
> intellectual exercise, but it is not tango and no Argentine
> dancer, including social and professional dancers will ever
> call it that.
>
>
> Hmmm...did anyone remind Luciana Valle, Andres Amarilla, El
> Pulpo or Chicho of that? :)
>
> "The times - they are a'changing"
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
> https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
>
>
>
>
> Looking for earth-friendly autos?
> Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:43:56 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:51:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> writes:
> One major difference between foreign and Argentine tango
> dancers is that for Argentines, tango is about the music
> and for foreigners it is about the movement.
You meant to say, "foreigners who are ignorant
on the subject," not "foreigners." Although admittedly,
in most cases they are probably the same thing.
> Many foreign dancers do not understand that the dance, in
> this case, follows the music and perceive Argentine tango
> being about the moves, and that is where the confusion arrives.
Precisely. Without the dance moves associated
with tango, there would still be tango. Without
the tango music, there would be no tango.
> Again, people can dance to whatever music, but it is not Argentine
> Tango. Maybe someone should invent a name for this dance that is
> danced outside of Argentina to all other music.
How about Teeny Bopper To Twenty-Something (And
TBTTS Wannabees) Tucked Out Shirt Over Cargo Pants And
Resoled Converse Sneakers Dancing?
Huck
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:05:24 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
format="flowed"
Hi, Jay,
I will answer each one of your questions according to my experience.
> Do not many Argentines dance tango steps to non-tango or pop music?
Correct. Almost no one does it. Those who do, do not call it
Argentine Tango.
> Can you say that these generally younger Argentines did not
> originate the practice?
Correct. They did not. The very first time that the possibility of
tango being danced to anything other than tango was presented by
Daniel Trenner and Rebecca dancing to piece by Bob Telson in 1997-1998
or so. Argentines frowned on it.
> Do you have evidence in the history of the evolution of the
> non/neo-tango music phenomenon to justify your contention that it
> is "foreigners" who have started this behavior?
There is a video of Daniel and Rebecca dancing to Bob Telson. Also, I
was there when this phenomena had began, was a part of it, danced it
every which way and felt pleased with myself for being so "radical".
Argentines continued to frown on it, but I did not care then. We even
tried to do it in BsAs when we (me and my European roommates) lived
there in the late 90s and we embarassed ourselves terribly trying to
dance tango to rock-and-roll when it was played in the milongas. So,
the evidence is the actual experience.
Not, the whole thing just makes me laugh. When people begin to do
tango moves to non-tango music with an air of artistic avant-guard, I
realize how stupid we looked then and feel sorry for these people now.
But eventually they will learn, I have no doubt about it.
Did I answer all your questions?
Best regards,
Nina
J TangoMoments.com
>
>
> Explore the seven wonders of the world
>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:11:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu> wrote:
> How about Teeny Bopper To Twenty-Something (And
> TBTTS Wannabees) Tucked Out Shirt Over Cargo Pants
> And
> Resoled Converse Sneakers Dancing?
Ooh, does that mean we can start alternately calling
pure Argentine Tango "Slicked-Back-Hair,
Rose-in-the-Teeth, Pretentious Windbag Dancing?"
It's here! Your new message!
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Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:39:32 -0800
From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....[DONE]
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Gentlepersons,
Now before devolve into a flame war....
(I'm still giggling over 'pretentious windbag...' line, too funny
Kat...too funny)
Might I remind you that I asked a very simple question.
I can see I've struck a chord with you all.
And my apologies as the NoooB in the room. So my apologies to the
traditionalists, and to the acceptance crowd. And if its not clear
to you I'm in the Acceptance Crowd.
I can see the we all need a slight reality check...not to mention
some clear instructions on hitting the delete key before hitting the
SEND key.
I digress.
My point here is I asked a simple question and I see that the answer
is very multifaceted and rather complex...so I withdraw the question.
And if you folks want to debate the finer points herein, you all go
right ahead. I however am removing myself from the obvious flame war
that hath erupted.
M i l e s
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:11:41 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Huck, you are not careful. You shouldn't call people names !
See? Now you are what you always hated to be "Rose-in-the-teeth".
( A propaganda method N 345 - "Assign a property to a subject this subject
does not posses and they blame the subject for that." )
I know, I know, Kat just wanted to point out that Huck is "not right".
How about "I-Am-Another-Piazzolla" for the Alternatives?
Igor Polk
--------------------------
--- Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu> wrote:
> How about Teeny Bopper To Twenty-Something (And
> TBTTS Wannabees) Tucked Out Shirt Over Cargo Pants
> And
> Resoled Converse Sneakers Dancing?
Ooh, does that mean we can start alternately calling
pure Argentine Tango "Slicked-Back-Hair,
Rose-in-the-Teeth, Pretentious Windbag Dancing?"
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:41:28 -0800
From: "anfractuoso x2" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600702231741s14ab6ba2q279161a0b499b139@mail.gmail.com>
On 2/23/07, Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Ooh, does that mean we can start alternately calling
> pure Argentine Tango "Slicked-Back-Hair,
> Rose-in-the-Teeth, Pretentious Windbag Dancing?"
Ah, "rose in the teeth", that's funny. Did you just conflate argentine
tango with Valentino hollywood images from around 1921 associated with
european/american/ballroom tango? Thus proving Huck and Nina's point
about foreigners and ignorance? Sorry I am just trying to follow the
ideas here..
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:08:08 -0500
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
>On 2/23/07, Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ooh, does that mean we can start alternately calling
> > pure Argentine Tango "Slicked-Back-Hair,
> > Rose-in-the-Teeth, Pretentious Windbag Dancing?"
>
Oh no, this is really going in a strange direction. I think that the
traditional tango is not known or understood if traditional tango dancers
are characterized as "Slicked-Back-Hair, Rose-in-the-Teeth, Pretentious
Windbag[s]". No wonder some folks are going to the alternative route. They
don't know how really good the traditional tango really is... It saddens me,
not angers me to see the tango music and dance that I know and love to be so
maligned.... Truly, the tango (the real deal) is so captivating and
fulfilling that it needs nothing more. No offence, but all this
"alternative" tango and tango dancing is nothing compared to the real thing.
Please don't give up on the real tango without giving it a chance. I would
beg of all you iconoclastic souls to please learn the authentic tango before
discarding it in favor of some synthetic form of music and dance. Please do
not cast away the tango that some of us know and love.
Sincerely,
Manuel
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Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:48:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com> writes:
> Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu> wrote:
>
> > How about Teeny Bopper To Twenty-Something (And
> > TBTTS Wannabees) Tucked Out Shirt Over Cargo Pants
> > And Resoled Converse Sneakers Dancing?
>
> Ooh, does that mean we can start alternately calling
> pure Argentine Tango "Slicked-Back-Hair,
> Rose-in-the-Teeth, Pretentious Windbag Dancing?"
I was thinking of just calling it "Argentine tango,"
because that's what it is. Besides, it wouldn't be
fair to name an entire dance just after me. :)
But to explore this "pretentious" idea a bit
further--I don't think it's pretentious to vastly
prefer to enjoy Argentine tango for what it actually
is. Is preferring to play football on a football
field instead of a baseball diamond pretentious? Is
preferring to dance fox trot to Sinatra instead of
cha-cha music pretentious, even if you are able to
make the fox trot moves fit the cha-cha music (which
one most certainly can)?
As Nina points out, tango is the music--the
dance is just icing on the cake. If anything need be
labeled, I'd say presuming to hijack someone else's
culture and transform it into something entirely
different, while still calling it the same name, is
presumptuous. I also agree with Nina that doing so
betrays a confusion between dance movement that has
evolved around tango, and tango itself.
Now having said that, actually I'm all for the
American tango festivals offering alternative-music
milongas in the late afternoon the way many of them
have been doing the last few years, because that way
the people who like to do that sort of thing can just
be together and get it out of their systems all at
once, rather than diminishing the actual AT milongas
that occur later in the evening by clamoring at the
DJ all night hoping to get him to insert some
alternative-music tandas.
And if I were in a town someplace and the choice
of what was available that night was either an
alternative milonga or nothing, I wouldn't choose
nothing just to stubbornly prove some kind of purist
point, as if by going to the alternative milonga
I'd be "selling out the Argentines!!" or something.
I'd no doubt go to the alternative milonga, have some
fun, and enjoy it for what it was--hey, dancing of
just about any kind is fun, and as Stephen Stills once
said in a song, if you can't be with the one you love,
love the one you're with--but after it was over,
I certainly wouldn't delude myself into thinking I'd
just enjoyed an evening of Argentine tango. And if
the choice were three-way, between an alternative
milonga, nothing, and, say, a movie, if the movie was
good enough, it might be awfully tempting, whereas if
the milonga were genuine instead of alternative, the
movie wouldn't stand a chance.
Huck
PS By the way, the slick-backed hair idea is coolly
authentic, but to the best of my knowledge, the
rose-in-the-teeth caricature is more associated
with International Standard ballroom tango. :)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 04:28:39 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Dear Nina,
Pesochinsky> Hmmm... did these dancers actually announce that they were dancing
Pesochinsky> "Argentine tango"? Just because they are Argentine does not mean that
What is argentine tango? According to all contemporary description is a way of dancing. Originally danced to music that was not stylistically well-defined. Now, of course, it is. There is an almost fixed idea what "tango-like" music is.
But when I test it on new students I find that they
a) sometimes are unable to identify certain performers as tango (such as Gardel...)
b) will not (unable to) distinguish between different rythms and therefore will dance to anything that I put in, including canyengue, vals, milonga...
c) are not really giving a damn about originality, but will be interested in music they like and consider danceable (not frowned upon in Europe...)
This also reminds me, that the different styles that are called tango are so diverse, that you could as well play Bach and still dance tango to it, there would be no less difference.
Of course tango FOR DANCING is a different issue. Many tangos were not intended for dancing. These tango were different because they encompassed other styles or used unusual arrangements, or maybe just used 'the tango feeling' as a dramatic tool.
However, some of them later became part of the milonga-repertoire.
Now with neotango, why not? With other world-music/lounge/jazz, and especially pop and rock'n'roll it is a bit more tricky, but using the same extrapolation basing it on rythmical/mood/theme/arrangement similarities, it is just contemporary music, to which people dance tango.
They could dance a mixture of polka, slow fox and hip-hop as well, but they choose tango with some changes. This is what they feel right.
As for calling this phenomenon argentine tango... Well I disapprove.
It is DEFINITELY not Argentine. But it is tango. A sub-class (or rather evolved class) of it. Maybe you could call the dancing style using the naming of electro-tangomusic as neotango (to distinguish it from the nuevo technique)... It is not pure old-style original tango as it is using technique and movement from many other dancing styles (but well processed, so they are quite hard to identify), but a child of tango nevertheless...
NB: Argentine Tango is a way to distinguish tango from other tango styles. AT is usually referred to as 'tango' by natives and will include all styles danced.
NB2: I am not a proponent of neotango, but I like to dance to it at times. However, may hard drive contains about 80Gbs of 'traditional' tango (14000+ songs), and maybe only 4-5Gbs of modern (got recently from my 25 yo dancepartner, who is very fond of it).
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:03:10 -0800
From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Manuel,
I think you believe you have us 'iconoclasts' at a disadvantage.
That some how we're neophytes out in the tango world and that we're
just learning tango for the first time. "What's an ocho ?". If so,
then I know you've got me wrong.
I can't speak for any of the other iconoclasts, nor the bleeding
heart Acceptance Crowd...however if I may make a gross generalization
here, I believe you're talking as though we've left the tango fold as
it were. That we *REFUSE* to dance tango to anything EXCEPT non-
traditional music (which so many of you have pointed out is NOT tango
but something else, so noted, your opinion has been duly noted,
logged, and classfied...you'll be hearing from the tango authorities
soon enough).
Nothing could be further from the truth for me. I'm a fan (which is
a huge understatement if you've read my blog) of all the music, I was
simply asking (since I started this thread and ended it several msgs
ago) a question which would help me to classify what I'm hearing.
And musically speaking I don't give a rats damn about genre or
style...just as long as I'm in connection with my partner.
And isn't that the idea that is so prevalent in every tango class, at
every practica, at every milonga...to create and maintain the
connection with said partner ?
And as an up and coming lead in the tango world isn't it the job of a
good lead to adapt, engage, and lead your follower via whatever means
necessary ?
Again, not speaking for anyone but myself...as we iconoclasts are
very independent and just absolutely hate it when others speak for
us. For *ME* its not about the patterns or steps as Nina would
imply. Its about the connection baby. Nothing more...nothing less.
Its the meshing of two bodies moving in near perfect unison, and what
adds icing to the cake is the floating, lulling melodic sounds of
passion, patience, grace, and beauty...the music. And whatever music
that works for you...great. You have what does it for you, I'm happy
for you. I have what does it for me, and the rest of my iconoclastic
brethren. And that works.
One more point of note here: Let's not confuse the sizzle for the
steak folks. Which is to say that whatever gets you to that place,
where you connect with your partner, musically, emotionally,
spiritually, is what works. If its traditional, golden-age, non-
traditional, alternative, whatever label you want to put it on...as
long as its between you and your partner, and it works. I say go do.
Just my .02 cents worth.
M i l e s.
TANGOBLISS - - - BUILDING TANGO WEBSITES FOR TANGO TEACHERS
M i l e s info@tangobliss.com
MagicMiles Software (415) 686 - 6164
https://www.tangobliss.com/ AIM/Yahoo/MSN: magikmiles
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:06:55 -0800
From: "ELEMER DUBROVAY" <Elemer_7@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: "Tango-L" <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
When you are dancing argentine tango, it means that you are dancing to argentine tango music.
If you are using the same tango steps to dance to a different music, it is not tango dancing anymore, you can call it dancing "whatever...." with tango steps.
Elemer in Redmond
----- Original Message -----
From: Ecsedy ?ron<mailto:aron@milonga.hu>
To: Tango-L<mailto:TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
Dear Nina,
Pesochinsky> Hmmm... did these dancers actually announce that they were dancing
Pesochinsky> "Argentine tango"? Just because they are Argentine does not mean that
What is argentine tango? According to all contemporary description is a way of dancing. Originally danced to music that was not stylistically well-defined. Now, of course, it is. There is an almost fixed idea what "tango-like" music is.
But when I test it on new students I find that they
a) sometimes are unable to identify certain performers as tango (such as Gardel...)
b) will not (unable to) distinguish between different rythms and therefore will dance to anything that I put in, including canyengue, vals, milonga...
c) are not really giving a damn about originality, but will be interested in music they like and consider danceable (not frowned upon in Europe...)
This also reminds me, that the different styles that are called tango are so diverse, that you could as well play Bach and still dance tango to it, there would be no less difference.
Of course tango FOR DANCING is a different issue. Many tangos were not intended for dancing. These tango were different because they encompassed other styles or used unusual arrangements, or maybe just used 'the tango feeling' as a dramatic tool.
However, some of them later became part of the milonga-repertoire.
Now with neotango, why not? With other world-music/lounge/jazz, and especially pop and rock'n'roll it is a bit more tricky, but using the same extrapolation basing it on rythmical/mood/theme/arrangement similarities, it is just contemporary music, to which people dance tango.
They could dance a mixture of polka, slow fox and hip-hop as well, but they choose tango with some changes. This is what they feel right.
As for calling this phenomenon argentine tango... Well I disapprove.
It is DEFINITELY not Argentine. But it is tango. A sub-class (or rather evolved class) of it. Maybe you could call the dancing style using the naming of electro-tangomusic as neotango (to distinguish it from the nuevo technique)... It is not pure old-style original tango as it is using technique and movement from many other dancing styles (but well processed, so they are quite hard to identify), but a child of tango nevertheless...
NB: Argentine Tango is a way to distinguish tango from other tango styles. AT is usually referred to as 'tango' by natives and will include all styles danced.
NB2: I am not a proponent of neotango, but I like to dance to it at times. However, may hard drive contains about 80Gbs of 'traditional' tango (14000+ songs), and maybe only 4-5Gbs of modern (got recently from my 25 yo dancepartner, who is very fond of it).
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:15:46 -0800
From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Manuel,
>And as an up and coming lead in the tango world isn't it the job of a
>good lead to adapt, engage, and lead your follower via whatever means
>necessary ?
I should have added ... via whatever means necessary within the
bounds of 'floorcraft' ?
And again, this is WAY off topic here folks...way.
M i l e s.
TANGOBLISS - - - BUILDING TANGO WEBSITES FOR TANGO TEACHERS
M i l e s info@tangobliss.com
MagicMiles Software (415) 686 - 6164
https://www.tangobliss.com/ AIM/Yahoo/MSN: magikmiles
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:03:17 -0800
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: "Kat" <hellkat_13@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hi Kat..You seem to be implying that EVERYTHING is Tango. Then......
Why do we call it "Tango"?..Why are we compulsively addicted to it?
Why do we take "Tango" lessons or workshops or fly to festivals to dance?
Why do we keep buying "Tango "shoes and cds? Why do we decide whether or not
to go to a certain milonga merely on the basis of who the Dj is?
Because the music and the dance do not matter as long as we accept it as
"evolution of Tango"? I don't think so.
I don't have a problem with alternative milongas. I go and I have fun.
But I do not think of it of "dancing Tango". I know something is missing.
If you want to call it "Alternative music for dancing Tango" or "Alternative
milonga",
that is fine with me.
But "nuevo"? , "contemporary"? "Neo"? "Argentine"???????(you must be
kidding!!)
No way. It has to be Tango in the first place before it can be any of those.
Ignoring this common sense approach only means that you wish to present
yourself
as "evolved" , "avant garde" and down that path you have no trouble with
insulting and ignoring history, art, culture, traditions and people who
created this music and dance for you to love, but NOT for you to claim.
Gabriel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
> Nina,
>
> I am sorry, but people speaking in absolutes about
> alternative tango music, women leading, etc, always
> gets me. I have similar impulse control problems.
>
> Who died and made you arbiter of what is and is not
> tango? I really don't care if Gardel visited you from
> the grave and gave you a tablet with The Rules, it's a
> freaking dance. An entirely subjective art form. It
> is whatever people make it, and whatever people mutate
> it to be over time. If it hadn't already mutated, it
> never would have come into being, started
> incorporating milonga or vals, or adding additional
> steps. What you're insisting is like demanding that
> we only speak Latin. You tango purists sound like
> religious fundamentalists. It's just not practical,
> and to me, it comes off as snobby and narrow minded.
>
> Kat
>
> --- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Miles, Trini, and everyone,
>>
>> I am sorry, but the discussion about the
>> "alternative" music always
>> gets me and I can't not get into it. Serious
>> impulse control problems!
>>
>> Alternative music for tango is an invention of
>> feverish foreign
>> (non-Argentine) minds. Tango is a dance that is
>> danced 2x4. But if
>> you dance it to anything other tango music, meaning
>> tango music that
>> is POLYPHONIC is its formation, it is NOT tango, but
>> some other dance,
>> originated outside of Argentina, that is only based
>> on Argentine Tango
>> moves.
>>
>> If you ask Argentines what they consider to be
>> "alternative" tango
>> music, some who think of music will say "Piazzolla".
>> Others who think
>> lyrics will name singers and songs from Rock
>> Nacional genre, because
>> those lyrics are just like las letras de tango.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Nina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
>> <patangos@yahoo.com>:
>>
>> > Hi Miles,
>> >
>> > Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango
>> that you
>> > might find interesting.
>> > https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
>> >
>> > Trini de Pittsburgh
>> >
>> > --- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what
>> goes
>> >> through my mind
>> >> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily
>> dance
>> >> tango, vals
>> >> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your
>> mind a
>> >> bit...and
>> >> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
>> >>
>> >> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love.
>> Amazing
>> >> song to dance
>> >> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The
>> Water is
>> >> Wide, or the
>> >> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of
>> You.... All
>> >> amazing
>> >> songs that are so danceable and perfect for
>> Tango....
>> >>
>> >> So am I wrong in thinking that this is
>> 'alternative'
>> >> music or is
>> >> there perhaps another meaning....
>> >>
>> >> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by
>> other
>> >> orchestras
>> >> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
>> >>
>> >> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or
>> NarcoTango
>> >> or,
>> >> BalaTango....?
>> >>
>> >> Can anyone enlighten ?
>> >>
>> >> M i l e s.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
>> most popular social dance.
>> > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> > Want to start your own business?
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
>> <patangos@yahoo.com>:
>>
>> > Hi Miles,
>> >
>> > Sharna Fabiano wrote an article about NeoTango
>> that you
>> > might find interesting.
>> > https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
>> >
>> > Trini de Pittsburgh
>> >
>> > --- m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> When I hear the term..."Alternative Music" what
>> goes
>> >> through my mind
>> >> is a series of songs that you wouldn't ordinarily
>> dance
>> >> tango, vals
>> >> or milonga to...but you can, if you stretch your
>> mind a
>> >> bit...and
>> >> hear the beat, the rhythm, the opportunities...
>> >>
>> >> Take for instance Sade's - No Ordinary Love.
>> Amazing
>> >> song to dance
>> >> tango to by the way.... Or James Taylor's - The
>> Water is
>> >> Wide, or the
>> >> ubiquitous, Norah Jones's - The Nearness of
>> You.... All
>> >> amazing
>> >> songs that are so danceable and perfect for
>> Tango....
>> >>
>> >> So am I wrong in thinking that this is
>> 'alternative'
>> >> music or is
>> >> there perhaps another meaning....
>> >>
>> >> One that springs to mind is 'alternate' songs by
>> other
>> >> orchestras
>> >> doing classic or golden age tunes....???
>> >>
>> >> Or another is something to Gotan Project, or
>> NarcoTango
>> >> or,
>> >> BalaTango....?
>> >>
>> >> Can anyone enlighten ?
>> >>
>> >> M i l e s.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
>> most popular social dance.
>> > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> > Want to start your own business?
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
> TV dinner still cooling?
> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
>
>
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:08:00 -0500
From: "Neil Liveakos" <neil.liveakos@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<737e9d3f0702232108i885079at4139f0bf1c8d618@mail.gmail.com>
This is such an incredible thread that I couldn't resist blogging it on
milonga.us .
If anyone objects to me posting their posts then send me a note and I'll
delete your words and revert to your tango_L archive link.
Thanks,
Neil
On 2/23/07, m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> wrote:
>
> Manuel,
>
> >And as an up and coming lead in the tango world isn't it the job of a
> >good lead to adapt, engage, and lead your follower via whatever means
> >necessary ?
>
> I should have added ... via whatever means necessary within the
> bounds of 'floorcraft' ?
>
> And again, this is WAY off topic here folks...way.
>
> M i l e s.
>
> TANGOBLISS - - - BUILDING TANGO WEBSITES FOR TANGO TEACHERS
> M i l e s info@tangobliss.com
> MagicMiles Software (415) 686 - 6164
> https://www.tangobliss.com/ AIM/Yahoo/MSN: magikmiles
>
--
Neil Liveakos
https://milonga.us
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:16:32 -0800 (PST)
From: musette fan <musettefan@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: ELEMER DUBROVAY <Elemer_7@msn.com>, Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
I agree with Elemer. I call it "freestyle partner
dancing" for lack of a catchier name, because that's
what it feels like it is to me, and I don't think has
to use only tango steps. I think it's great fun to
do, but I also enjoy dancing other partner dances, so
that may have something to do with it.
When I dance Argentine tango, which I adore, I am a
purist or "traditionalist" for sure. They seem like
two completely different things, but I do think there
is a difference between dancing to totally non-tango
music and to stuff like Gotan Project, and then it's
neo or nuevo tango, in my mind and body at least.
Terri
--- ELEMER DUBROVAY <Elemer_7@msn.com> wrote:
> When you are dancing argentine tango, it means that
> you are dancing to argentine tango music.
> If you are using the same tango steps to dance to a
> different music, it is not tango dancing anymore,
> you can call it dancing "whatever...." with tango
> steps.
>
> Elemer in Redmond
>
Want to start your own business?
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 05:49:36 -0300
From: "Meredith Klein" <meredithleeklein@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
<34cd2b720702240049h7c534557h59536a35f731fd5b@mail.gmail.com>
While it's true that you're more likely to hear alternative music
played at a milonga in the US, it's also happening here in Buenos
Aires, especially at practicas like Villa Malcolm. I've even, late at
night, heard non-tango songs played at a couple of traditional
milongas. For example, I once heard a Llasa song played late at night
at Confiteria Ideal and, if I remember correctly, it was played after
a cortina (in other words, it wasn't the cortina.) At Malcolm, when
an alternative song comes on, it's just like any other song. If you
want to dance, you look for a partner, and if you don't like the
music, you refrain from dancing. But no one dances differently
because Llasa came on or claims that they're not dancing tango
anymore.
I've noticed that in the past year it's become more popular for the
younger teachers to perform in the milongas and practicas to
alternative music. I've recently seen couples like Pablo Inza &
Eugenia Parrilla, Gaston Torelli & Mariela Sometband, and Ricky &
Soledad (an incredible new couple that is performing a lot now) give
performances in the milongas where they chose to dance 1-3 alternative
songs out of 3-4 total songs performed. Often, the other songs that
they chose were traditional "golden age." I think the variety of
music enables them to show more of their range as dancers and
therefore helps them keep the attention of the audience for 3-4 songs.
I think that DJs are using alternative music for much the same
reason. Introducing non-tango music brings new moods, emotions,
tempos, and dynamics into the room and when you use tango movements to
express these other affects, it can be pretty interesting. At the
least, when you hear Di Sarli or D'Arienzo again afterward, you're
even happier than you would have been otherwise.
By the way, I heard a fabulous orquesta tipica, "El Afronte," at Villa
Malcolm tonight. All of the musicians are young, they have a great
singer, and they play fantastic new arrangements of golden age tangos.
They sound a bit like another orquesta tipica I like, "Fernandez
Fierro," but without the self-conscious and somewhat exhausting
intensity of Fierro. It's really exciting to see young people taking
tangos that are 60-80+ years old and giving them new life. Hearing a
brand-new arrangement of Bahia Blanca that makes you reflect on the Di
Sarli recording, while challenging you by emphasizing parts of the
music that you may not generally hear, is wonderful. Apparently they
play in San Telmo every Monday night. Details are on their website
at: https://www.elafronte.com.ar/
On 24/02/07, musette fan <musettefan@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I agree with Elemer. I call it "freestyle partner
> dancing" for lack of a catchier name, because that's
> what it feels like it is to me, and I don't think has
> to use only tango steps. I think it's great fun to
> do, but I also enjoy dancing other partner dances, so
> that may have something to do with it.
>
> When I dance Argentine tango, which I adore, I am a
> purist or "traditionalist" for sure. They seem like
> two completely different things, but I do think there
> is a difference between dancing to totally non-tango
> music and to stuff like Gotan Project, and then it's
> neo or nuevo tango, in my mind and body at least.
>
> Terri
>
>
> --- ELEMER DUBROVAY <Elemer_7@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > When you are dancing argentine tango, it means that
> > you are dancing to argentine tango music.
> > If you are using the same tango steps to dance to a
> > different music, it is not tango dancing anymore,
> > you can call it dancing "whatever...." with tango
> > steps.
> >
> > Elemer in Redmond
> >
>
>
>
>
> Want to start your own business?
>
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 08:31:36 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Kat wrote:
> You tango purists sound like
> religious fundamentalists.
Thank you for making this analogy. I quit the dance five years ago
because I was tired of "dance doctrine" being thrown in my face by
arrogant leads, in the middle of the dance floor. It has often struck
me that many tango purists are trying to time-travel and live in another
place and time.
When we consider the origins and evolution of tango (or frankly, any
other organically developed street dance) the hypocrisy is doubly
laughable. There are these same arguments going on right now in the
lindy hop community, with certain upper-middle-class white college
students screechin' and preachin' about why one can only dance lindy hop
to music from certain approved black jazz artists in the early 30's.
Popular dance (street dance) cannot help but evolve. It reverberates
with the cultural memes, body movements, clothing, images and beats from
the popular culture surrounding it. If it ain't movin', it's dead.
To fix a dance in a style, a syllabus, a choreography chart, a set of
pre-ordained and pre-approved musical tracks, is to fossilize it like an
insect in amber. And then we call it vintage dance, to distinguish it
and its practitioners from organic, live, popular dance. There are
plenty of people out there who do vintage dance and it's a very cool
thing--with costumes and period music on period instruments and
sometimes even elaborate reenactments of certain historical events, such
as an inaugural ball. Vintage dance is a valid art form, but it is a
historical, traditionally accurate artform. It is not innovative.
So now we have identified the genesis of Miles' flamewar: different sets
of expectations. Both styles of dance are valid (vintage vs. live). As
a dancer, and as a dance promoter, here are your issues:
How do I manage (my own, others') expectations?
As a dancer I can observe someone's dancing on the floor, and then
decide whether I want to dance with them (having observed that they are
obviously a vintage dancer or obviously a neotango dancer).
Will I dance with someone either way? Yes. Will I have a good time?
Depends. I am focusing on having an enjoyable three minutes of social
dancing. Obviously, many dancers do not share the same goal, some are
on the floor to precisely recreate a 1930's period mood in their own
mind with the aid of a dance partner, or to perfect the execution of a
methodology or a chain of dance figures as exemplified in some dance
guru's teaching method. If one of us is looking for anything more than
a social dance (with all its inherent discoveries, inventions and
imperfections), then we are on the floor for two very, very different
things. I am capable of flexing a little towards the doctrinal but at
some point it becomes "not fun." I also recognize that for those
"execution of a methodology" type leads, dancing with me is not their
idea of fun, because they are looking for a highly specific dance
experience where a follow gives them exactly the response they are
intending to evoke.
It's too bad there are so many people in the tango community on the
extreme ends of this spectrum, and not too many in the middle, it makes
for a lot of mismatched expectations.
How do we call a spade a spade?
I'm sorry, but the words "tango" and "Argentine tango" are not
trademarked. The tango purists and the vintage dancers are not allowed
to forbid the use of these terms to all except the certified and
sanctified brethren who worship at the same altar.
That being said...it is misleading to call a dance which only features
blues, jazz, and electrotango music a "milonga" or a night of "tango".
People are going to read publicity, show up, and their expectations for
their evening's entertainment are not going to be met. So I think we
should use "neotango" or "alternative milonga" to describe dances
featuring only these types of tandas, and I think we should give some
thought to using "traditional tango" and possibly "vintage tango" to
describe the dance as it is narrowly defined to a period of music and a
stylistic set of moves coming from an era--at least in discussion, if
not also in promotion.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
business, technology, entertainment and media law
"practical legal solutions for creative people"
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://www.arborlaw.com
"When grain is made into refined white flour, more than 30
essential nutrients are largely removed. Only four of those
nutrients are added back in a process called "enrichment."
Using this same logic, if a person were robbed of 30 dollars
and the thief then returned 4 dollars to his victim for cab
fare home, then that person should be considered "enriched"
by 4 dollars, not robbed of 26." -- Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.
Updates in business, technology, entertainment and media law
a r b o r l a w -- https://www.arborlaw.com/blog/
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:08:55 +0100
From: "Mauro Casadei" <m_casadei67@tin.it>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Kat
<mailto:tango-l%40mit.edu?Subject=%5BTango-L%5D%20%22Alternative%22%20Music.
...&In-Reply-To4cd2b720702240049h7c534557h59536a35f731fd5b%40mail.gmail.co
m> hellkat_13 at yahoo.com
Sat Feb 24 08:38:59 EST 2007
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_____
My personal preference is to dance with people that
are laid back and fun. who do not take themselves too
seriously, and can laugh and be my friend, as well as
have some soul, be creative, and surprise me when they
are dancing. In my experience, the tucked out shirt,
cargo pants crowd is much better at establishing that
feeling.
Kat,
I am attending to Milongas in another continent, so I cannot say I agree or
disagree with you.
However, I can tell you the feeling I have about what goes on here in Italy.
Quite often, here, people who dance Tango dressed up like a "laid-back cool
rapper" are even more snotty than someone wearing a Tuxedo.
Many of them (not all of course) seem to dance tango to showoff, and their
way of dressing is like "Look, I am so good at dancing tango that I can
dress like a homeless instead of wearin' classical clothes".
Quite often, such people walk about 1 meter above the ground, transmitting
the feeling that they really feel "cool".
My point is that in my opinion (or at least my experience from this corner
of the world) the *really* laid back people are those that do not indulge
into extremes, either in tango style, nor in the way of dressing: quite
often, the most "ordinary-looking" person do not give importance to the
appearance or to the "showoff", but they rather try to enjoy the music and
creating harmony with the partner.
And I agree with you that trying to dance with a smile on the face and a
little less seriousness is a big pus :-)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:23:57 -0500
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: hellkat_13@yahoo.com, TANGO-L@mit.edu
Good grief Kat, why are you so angry? I don't know if we've ever met but I
can assure you that "aryan" is the last adjective that would apply to my
tango..... I am sad to hear and read such hatred towards something that I
really love. I respect your desire to dance sloppily to whatever music or
noise you like. And I don't care if you only like people who wear cargo
pants and shirt tails out of their pants (actually I've worn such clothing
before). What bothers me is your polarizing and insulting comments. Your
posts sound like some politicians inflammatory rhetoric "If you don't
support my viewpoint or policy, you are with the enemies..."
I and others who disagree with you are not hide bound reactionaries or
slick-haired, costumed caricatures of some ugly, patronizing, derogatory
tango parody. Personally, I'm very proud of my non-aryan, Spanish-American
heritage. I'm not a stiff, rule-following tango dictator. The thing that I
believe with all my heart is that the tango is not a collection or series of
steps and movements performed to just any music. The tango is the dance
"and" the music.
Many of the steps and movements that I see performed under the guise of
tango while some other genre of music plays in the background, do not even
resemble the Argentine tango. I just don't accept that tango is some
performance of tango-based movements performed to some electronic lounge
music, or some circus soundtrack, or some 1970's rock for that matter.
Please do what you want to do, but please stop your sarcastic, venomous
attacks on the tango and some of us who love it.
Thank you,
Manuel
>In any case, don't worry, I'm not coming to your town
>to pollute your aryan tango. I don't want it. i'd
>much rather have dirty, sloppy, broken tango with some
>balls.
Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as
fast as 1 year
https://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s@79&pQ16
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:05:38 -0500
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: miles@tangobliss.com, tango-l@mit.edu
>From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
>Manuel,
>
>
>And as an up and coming lead in the tango world isn't it the job of a
>good lead to adapt, engage, and lead your follower via whatever means
>necessary ?
>
Hi Miles, I don't remember responding to your post, so I'm at a loss for
appropriate answers. However, "whatever means necessary" sounds a little
like an excerpt from a discussion on mayhem and street fighting ;-)
>Its about the connection baby. Nothing more...nothing less.
>Its the meshing of two bodies moving in near perfect unison, and what
>adds icing to the cake is the floating, lulling melodic sounds of
>passion, patience, grace, and beauty...the music. And whatever music
>that works for you...great.
Wow, I certainly will not argue against lovemaking ;-)... Lovemaking is
indeed a wonderful thing and should definitely not be regulated or codified
in any way shape or form. These types of intimate physical connections are
strictly the business of the people involved.
I was actually responding to post by hellkat. It was something against
traditional Argentine tango and it's adherents. Without judgment against
anyone, I just want to say that traditional tango is not such a horrible
thing. Also, for me the tango is the dance "and" the music. For me the tango
music is the inspiration to the dance.
Manuel
Dont miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft.
Office Live https://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:29:00 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Sharna Fabiano has given me permission to post this article to the list,
so we can read and discuss.
-------------
The Rise of Neo Tango Music
? copyright Sharna Fabiano 2003
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
The reawakening of the argentine tango at the turn of the new century is
that of a great spirit rising after a deep slumber. In its recent
revival since the late eighties, the tango has inspired legions of new
dancers all over the globe with its powerful partner connection and
intricate, elegant movements. Of late, momentum is gathering for a
revolutionary wave to crash into the tango world. Young dancers are
experimenting with new concepts in tango social dance, and along with
them contemporary tango musicians are inventing a hybrid sound that
blends traditional instrumentation with modern electronic music. I call
this new wave "Neo Tango."
The breakthrough creations of contemporary artists such as the Gotan
Project, BajoFondo TangoClub, and most notably Carlos Libedinsky are
heralds of the new global tango. These artists have blended tango with
contemporary electronic music. Commenting on his newly released CD,
NARCOTANGO, Carlos writes:
"At the hour when there are only a few couples left on the dance floor,
magic sneaks into the Milonga, and I watch people dancing and
experimenting with a new kind of Tango dance. When my body is exhausted
>from dancing for hours and I don't want the night to end, at that hour
NARCOTANGO was born. It was then that I could imagine the music that I
wanted to dance to, and to see others dance to."
Until very recently, nearly all of the music used for dancing today's
social tango has been taken from old recordings of Golden Age
orchestras. Even most young tango bands tend to fill their repertoire
with compositions from that period. But our era is different from the
Golden Age of tango in Buenos Aires (1930s-50s). We have different
musical instruments and technologies, different social venues, and
different styles of dress. All of these things inspire today's tango
dancers and musicians to play and improvise in new ways.
However, there is something familiar about this creative urge. One might
say, in fact, that invention and experimentation are at the very root of
the tango tradition. Let's recall that in the early 1900's, hopeful
immigrants from Italy, Germany, Eastern Europe, Africa, and various
South American countries all converged on Argentina?s port city of
Buenos Aires, bringing with them not only their hopes and dreams, but
also their portable instruments and their cultural traditions. Like
today, it was an atmosphere of discovery, conflict, and social
adjustment. As the disparate members of Buenos Aires' early century
melting pot gathered together, the tango was born. Today, we witness its
re-birth. Creeping into the souls of enthusiasts around the globe, the
tango is searching for a current musical context.
This is why modern and culturally relevant music is so essential to
effectively renew the spirit of the tango. The "Neo Tangos" that the
aforementioned groups have produced are hybrids of traditional
instrumentation and electronic sound, artistically bridging the gap
between the Golden Age and the new millenium. This hybrid tango music
strikes a chord with mass audiences, and its vibration has the potential
to generate not only small gatherings of aficionados, but an
international social and artistic movement.
Neo Tango cannot be dismissed as the latest addition to the thriving
'world music' genre because it is not limited to the fusion of
electronic music with traditional instruments. On the contrary, so deep
is the need for new tangos that adventurous dancers of today are
claiming music from genres across the board: blues, rock, disco, fado,
and countless world music sub-categories. Phrases like 'alternative
tango' and 'non-tango' are already standard lingo. At a workshop on this
subject in Rochester, NY, my students came up with three essential
characteristics that a compelling Neo Tango shares with a Golden Age
Tango: 1. It has a consistent, walkable tempo; 2. It tells a story
through melodic and rhythmic sophistication; 3. It has powerful
emotional substance.
Popular music and tango music are circling each other out there in the
collective unconscious, like two planets approaching alignment.
Starbucks' new record label Hear Music accidentally (as far as I know)
produced a few Neo Tango albums recently. More than half the songs on
volumes 1, 2, 4, and 5 are functional for dancing tango. Even more
exciting is local phenomenon Thievery Corporation's latest album Richest
Man in Babylon, which Rolling Stone describes as "stories of a better
world." Several tracks on this album fits requirements 1-3 above.
Earlier this year I gave a tango performance at a screening of the film
The Truth About Charlie (a remake of the classic Charade). The script
now has a tango bar scene in place of the original jazz bar scene, and
shockingly enough features the music of the Gotan Project and Llasa de
Sela, an utterly non-tango artist widely played by tango
experimentalists. Coincidence? I think not. Someone in the film industry
has a finger on the pulse, so to speak. Already, regional music
preferences have begun to emerge within the global tango community, and
DJs are beginning to win accolades for their distinctive tastes in
non-traditional tangos. Dan Kesmayr writes from Germany:
"Here in Munich, we have a milonga called "Tango-Fusion" which basically
is a mix between a milonga and a dance club event. The music that gets
played is [traditional] tango (3 out of 20 songs?), stuff like Gotan
project, Bajofondo, some songs from soundtracks to the movies "Amelie",
"Chicago", and some more music that I cannot categorize, probably
nujazz, house etc. It was never intended as a replacement for classical
milongas, but in my world it is a really essential addition."
Dan's description of 'his world' reminds me suspiciously of the 1940's,
when most Buenos Aires neighborhoods had their own orchestras, and
dancers would choose where to go dancing depending on who was playing.
Today, we have a wider variety to choose from, and I think we will soon
see more events like Dan's cropping up in cities around the globe. Even
in Buenos Aires there is an avant-gard milonga called "La Catedral"
where you hear classical music, jazz, and other unexpected sounds
innocently floating out of the sound system and the very end of the night.
Dancers today have music available to them that spans many decades and
many countries. It has been the general assumption until now that there
was a natural ceiling on the growth of tango, namely because traditional
music and traditional atmosphere only appeal to a small segment of
today's population. The manifestation of neo tango music in the tango
world breaks that ceiling. Young people especially are drawn by the
eclectic sound and by the fun and experimental atmosphere that typically
accompanies it. Andrew Burt writes from Portland,
"I DJ the 'mixed music' practica here in Portland, and I think it's
great for the younger side of community building. It infuses a lot of
joy, gaiety, and humor into the dancing, and there's a lot more laughing
than you normally hear."
We can get a glimpse of what might happen with tango by observing the
development and integration of latin music and dancing into the latino
bar and club scene. Exposed to jazz, rock, and other external influences
since 1950, salsa dancing has persisted, through infinite permutations,
as it began, a natural part of social life in latino social communities.
Because Neo Tango reaches into a multitude of genres, its ramifications
if a similar integration takes place are likely to be enormous. Tango
dancing is proving to be a natural match with the majority of musical
genres found in today's mainstream dance clubs. If social tango dancing
becomes the norm in even 1% of such venues, social culture as we know it
will be altered beyond recognition, and we just might find ourselves in
the Platinum Age of Tango. [For more on the power of tango in social
culture, see Sharna's previous article, The Social Dance Network.]
The truth is that young dancers have been restless for several years
now, anticipating the appearance of this new music. Using as a base the
work of the "tango investigation" practice group begun by Argentine
visionaries Gustavo Naveira and Fabian Salas in Buenos Aires, young
dancers are inventing new moves, new embraces, and new clothes for
dancing. Tango has benefited immensely from the influence of salsa and
swing vocabulary, and underarm turns, spins, and changes of arms provide
rich material for this next evolution of social dance.
And so the contemporary tango music library is growing, and with it the
allure of tango for a key portion of the 20- and 30-something
demographic. The songs have the tango's unmistakable 'walking beat' and
the edge of the new millenia in their melodies. The urge to innovate and
reinvent is at the very core of the tango - contemporary evidence
includes mixing string instruments with sythnesizers, salsa turns with
conventional tango figures, denim with fishnets.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
business, technology, entertainment and media law
"practical legal solutions for creative people"
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://www.arborlaw.com
"When grain is made into refined white flour, more than 30
essential nutrients are largely removed. Only four of those
nutrients are added back in a process called "enrichment."
Using this same logic, if a person were robbed of 30 dollars
and the thief then returned 4 dollars to his victim for cab
fare home, then that person should be considered "enriched"
by 4 dollars, not robbed of 26." -- Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.
Updates in business, technology, entertainment and media law
a r b o r l a w -- https://www.arborlaw.com/blog/
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:39:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>, TANGO-L@mit.edu
I think it's strange that you see my last email as
angry and one-sided, and that you still think all I
dance is wacky open-embrace nuevo, when the majority
of my experience is close-embrace to traditional
music. if anything, I was trying to communicate that
what I was avoiding with my preference in who I dance
with, how I dance, what I dance to, and what I respond
to, are absolutes, on either end of the spectrum. the
first two emails were very sarcastic, the last one was
simply direct. I have no gripe with classic tango, I
have a gripe with the people who vehemently believe
that that can only mean one thing, and that they are
the person to tell me what that is.
It's amazing to me how many thank you emails I've
gotten from people on the list, who have been
browbeaten out of dancing altogether by these kinds of
tirades.
I'm not angry, I'm irritated and defending the small
patch of ground that I stand on, that I didn't ask for
any company on, but was under attack anyways. Believe
me, if I was trying to conquer, you would know it.
Everybody needs to lighten up. The rose in the teeth
thing was a joke. A comment on living a stereotype.
I understand that tango is about being intense, and
anguish, saudaude, etc. A person can feel those
things without looking a certain way, or listening to
ONE type of music. Honestly, the tango purists are
worse than the cliquiest bunch of goth kids. The
irony of that being that if one is so concerned with
how others percieve loneliness and anguish to be, they
can't possibly understand what it means to truly be
lonely.
As I said earlier, nobody has to join me. In fact,
please don't! I just want people to recognize my
right to disagree, that maybe their gospel is not
right for everyone. It's amazing that my poking fun
at their dogma has unsettled people to the point of
denouncing an entire nation. Believe me, there are
much better reasons to not like Americans.
Again, I never called it Argentine.
Kat
--- WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Good grief Kat, why are you so angry? I don't know
> if we've ever met but I
> can assure you that "aryan" is the last adjective
> that would apply to my
> tango..... I am sad to hear and read such hatred
> towards something that I
> really love. I respect your desire to dance sloppily
> to whatever music or
> noise you like. And I don't care if you only like
> people who wear cargo
> pants and shirt tails out of their pants (actually
> I've worn such clothing
> before). What bothers me is your polarizing and
> insulting comments. Your
> posts sound like some politicians inflammatory
> rhetoric "If you don't
> support my viewpoint or policy, you are with the
> enemies..."
>
> I and others who disagree with you are not hide
> bound reactionaries or
> slick-haired, costumed caricatures of some ugly,
> patronizing, derogatory
> tango parody. Personally, I'm very proud of my
> non-aryan, Spanish-American
> heritage. I'm not a stiff, rule-following tango
> dictator. The thing that I
> believe with all my heart is that the tango is not a
> collection or series of
> steps and movements performed to just any music. The
> tango is the dance
> "and" the music.
>
> Many of the steps and movements that I see performed
> under the guise of
> tango while some other genre of music plays in the
> background, do not even
> resemble the Argentine tango. I just don't accept
> that tango is some
> performance of tango-based movements performed to
> some electronic lounge
> music, or some circus soundtrack, or some 1970's
> rock for that matter.
> Please do what you want to do, but please stop your
> sarcastic, venomous
> attacks on the tango and some of us who love it.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Manuel
>
>
>
> >In any case, don't worry, I'm not coming to your
> town
> >to pollute your aryan tango. I don't want it. i'd
> >much rather have dirty, sloppy, broken tango with
> some
> >balls.
>
>
> Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school
> degrees online - in as
> fast as 1 year
>
>
>
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:44:07 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Musicians of tango, WHERE ARE YOU?!
Sharna Fabiano wrote in her article "The
breakthrough creations of contemporary artists
such as the Gotan Project, BajoFondo TangoClub,
and most notably Carlos Libedinsky are heralds of the new global tango. "
Is this a joke?
Discussing these works with real musicians, I
learned that his is simplistic music that cannot
even be compared with depth, complexity and
challenge of tangos that are written in the
traditional formation of tango, meaning
polyphonic. Gotan, Lebidinsky and the rest of
them create simple music, not polyphonic. IT IS
THE POLYPHONIC FORMATION OF TANGO THAT MAKES IT A TANGO.
I think that musicians need to discuss
this. Sharna might be misinformed. In Buenos
Aires today, only one orchestra is actually
getting the attention and respect for doing
something new in the real formation of tango and
that is the Fierro orchestra. They are making
their own arrangements and they are actually
innovating tango, real polyphonic tango.
But where are the musicians? Please show up and
discuss this from your perspective so that there
is some accuracy to this discussion of music.
Best,
Nina
At 11:29 AM 2/24/2007, Carol Shepherd wrote:
>Sharna Fabiano has given me permission to post this article to the list,
>so we can read and discuss.
>
>-------------
>The Rise of Neo Tango Music
>? copyright Sharna Fabiano 2003
>https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
>
>The reawakening of the argentine tango at the turn of the new century is
>that of a great spirit rising after a deep slumber. In its recent
>revival since the late eighties, the tango has inspired legions of new
>dancers all over the globe with its powerful partner connection and
>intricate, elegant movements. Of late, momentum is gathering for a
>revolutionary wave to crash into the tango world. Young dancers are
>experimenting with new concepts in tango social dance, and along with
>them contemporary tango musicians are inventing a hybrid sound that
>blends traditional instrumentation with modern electronic music. I call
>this new wave "Neo Tango."
>
>The breakthrough creations of contemporary artists such as the Gotan
>Project, BajoFondo TangoClub, and most notably Carlos Libedinsky are
>heralds of the new global tango. These artists have blended tango with
>contemporary electronic music. Commenting on his newly released CD,
>NARCOTANGO, Carlos writes:
>
>"At the hour when there are only a few couples left on the dance floor,
>magic sneaks into the Milonga, and I watch people dancing and
>experimenting with a new kind of Tango dance. When my body is exhausted
>>from dancing for hours and I don't want the night to end, at that hour
>NARCOTANGO was born. It was then that I could imagine the music that I
>wanted to dance to, and to see others dance to."
>
>Until very recently, nearly all of the music used for dancing today's
>social tango has been taken from old recordings of Golden Age
>orchestras. Even most young tango bands tend to fill their repertoire
>with compositions from that period. But our era is different from the
>Golden Age of tango in Buenos Aires (1930s-50s). We have different
>musical instruments and technologies, different social venues, and
>different styles of dress. All of these things inspire today's tango
>dancers and musicians to play and improvise in new ways.
>
>However, there is something familiar about this creative urge. One might
>say, in fact, that invention and experimentation are at the very root of
>the tango tradition. Let's recall that in the early 1900's, hopeful
>immigrants from Italy, Germany, Eastern Europe, Africa, and various
>South American countries all converged on Argentina?s port city of
>Buenos Aires, bringing with them not only their hopes and dreams, but
>also their portable instruments and their cultural traditions. Like
>today, it was an atmosphere of discovery, conflict, and social
>adjustment. As the disparate members of Buenos Aires' early century
>melting pot gathered together, the tango was born. Today, we witness its
>re-birth. Creeping into the souls of enthusiasts around the globe, the
>tango is searching for a current musical context.
>
>This is why modern and culturally relevant music is so essential to
>effectively renew the spirit of the tango. The "Neo Tangos" that the
>aforementioned groups have produced are hybrids of traditional
>instrumentation and electronic sound, artistically bridging the gap
>between the Golden Age and the new millenium. This hybrid tango music
>strikes a chord with mass audiences, and its vibration has the potential
>to generate not only small gatherings of aficionados, but an
>international social and artistic movement.
>
>Neo Tango cannot be dismissed as the latest addition to the thriving
>'world music' genre because it is not limited to the fusion of
>electronic music with traditional instruments. On the contrary, so deep
>is the need for new tangos that adventurous dancers of today are
>claiming music from genres across the board: blues, rock, disco, fado,
>and countless world music sub-categories. Phrases like 'alternative
>tango' and 'non-tango' are already standard lingo. At a workshop on this
>subject in Rochester, NY, my students came up with three essential
>characteristics that a compelling Neo Tango shares with a Golden Age
>Tango: 1. It has a consistent, walkable tempo; 2. It tells a story
>through melodic and rhythmic sophistication; 3. It has powerful
>emotional substance.
>
>Popular music and tango music are circling each other out there in the
>collective unconscious, like two planets approaching alignment.
>Starbucks' new record label Hear Music accidentally (as far as I know)
>produced a few Neo Tango albums recently. More than half the songs on
>volumes 1, 2, 4, and 5 are functional for dancing tango. Even more
>exciting is local phenomenon Thievery Corporation's latest album Richest
>Man in Babylon, which Rolling Stone describes as "stories of a better
>world." Several tracks on this album fits requirements 1-3 above.
>
>Earlier this year I gave a tango performance at a screening of the film
>The Truth About Charlie (a remake of the classic Charade). The script
>now has a tango bar scene in place of the original jazz bar scene, and
>shockingly enough features the music of the Gotan Project and Llasa de
>Sela, an utterly non-tango artist widely played by tango
>experimentalists. Coincidence? I think not. Someone in the film industry
>has a finger on the pulse, so to speak. Already, regional music
>preferences have begun to emerge within the global tango community, and
>DJs are beginning to win accolades for their distinctive tastes in
>non-traditional tangos. Dan Kesmayr writes from Germany:
>
>"Here in Munich, we have a milonga called "Tango-Fusion" which basically
>is a mix between a milonga and a dance club event. The music that gets
>played is [traditional] tango (3 out of 20 songs?), stuff like Gotan
>project, Bajofondo, some songs from soundtracks to the movies "Amelie",
>"Chicago", and some more music that I cannot categorize, probably
>nujazz, house etc. It was never intended as a replacement for classical
>milongas, but in my world it is a really essential addition."
>
>Dan's description of 'his world' reminds me suspiciously of the 1940's,
>when most Buenos Aires neighborhoods had their own orchestras, and
>dancers would choose where to go dancing depending on who was playing.
>Today, we have a wider variety to choose from, and I think we will soon
>see more events like Dan's cropping up in cities around the globe. Even
>in Buenos Aires there is an avant-gard milonga called "La Catedral"
>where you hear classical music, jazz, and other unexpected sounds
>innocently floating out of the sound system and the very end of the night.
>
>Dancers today have music available to them that spans many decades and
>many countries. It has been the general assumption until now that there
>was a natural ceiling on the growth of tango, namely because traditional
>music and traditional atmosphere only appeal to a small segment of
>today's population. The manifestation of neo tango music in the tango
>world breaks that ceiling. Young people especially are drawn by the
>eclectic sound and by the fun and experimental atmosphere that typically
>accompanies it. Andrew Burt writes from Portland,
>
>"I DJ the 'mixed music' practica here in Portland, and I think it's
>great for the younger side of community building. It infuses a lot of
>joy, gaiety, and humor into the dancing, and there's a lot more laughing
>than you normally hear."
>
>We can get a glimpse of what might happen with tango by observing the
>development and integration of latin music and dancing into the latino
>bar and club scene. Exposed to jazz, rock, and other external influences
>since 1950, salsa dancing has persisted, through infinite permutations,
>as it began, a natural part of social life in latino social communities.
>Because Neo Tango reaches into a multitude of genres, its ramifications
>if a similar integration takes place are likely to be enormous. Tango
>dancing is proving to be a natural match with the majority of musical
>genres found in today's mainstream dance clubs. If social tango dancing
>becomes the norm in even 1% of such venues, social culture as we know it
>will be altered beyond recognition, and we just might find ourselves in
>the Platinum Age of Tango. [For more on the power of tango in social
>culture, see Sharna's previous article, The Social Dance Network.]
>
>The truth is that young dancers have been restless for several years
>now, anticipating the appearance of this new music. Using as a base the
>work of the "tango investigation" practice group begun by Argentine
>visionaries Gustavo Naveira and Fabian Salas in Buenos Aires, young
>dancers are inventing new moves, new embraces, and new clothes for
>dancing. Tango has benefited immensely from the influence of salsa and
>swing vocabulary, and underarm turns, spins, and changes of arms provide
>rich material for this next evolution of social dance.
>
>And so the contemporary tango music library is growing, and with it the
>allure of tango for a key portion of the 20- and 30-something
>demographic. The songs have the tango's unmistakable 'walking beat' and
>the edge of the new millenia in their melodies. The urge to innovate and
>reinvent is at the very core of the tango - contemporary evidence
>includes mixing string instruments with sythnesizers, salsa turns with
>conventional tango figures, denim with fishnets.
>
>
>--
>Carol Ruth Shepherd
>Arborlaw Associates PLLC
>business, technology, entertainment and media law
>"practical legal solutions for creative people"
>Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
>734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
>https://www.arborlaw.com
>
>"When grain is made into refined white flour, more than 30
>essential nutrients are largely removed. Only four of those
>nutrients are added back in a process called "enrichment."
>Using this same logic, if a person were robbed of 30 dollars
>and the thief then returned 4 dollars to his victim for cab
>fare home, then that person should be considered "enriched"
>by 4 dollars, not robbed of 26." -- Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.
>
>Updates in business, technology, entertainment and media law
>
>a r b o r l a w -- https://www.arborlaw.com/blog/
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 03:35:45 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Great posting, Deby. I may delete a lot of other stuff while diagonally
browsing throug but yours I always read in deatil and with greart pleasure !
Manuel informs us:
"Personally, I'm very proud of my non-aryan, Spanish-American
heritage. I'm not a stiff, rule-following tango dictator"
That's a sweet things to say, Manuel. The stuff people come up with to
publish on tango-l never fails to surprise me at times (or not).
I may be a whole lot more "Aryan" than you, minus the blonde and all that,
but I completely agree with what you said in an earlier posting. See below:
>Argentine tango is a very specific dance done to
> very specific music. I love the music, I love the lyrics and the melodies.
...One can easily do half turns to the left and right, ocho
> cortado and other tango steps to the rhythm of Bachata and Salsa. The
> problem for me is that the whole flavor of the tango is missing along with
> the tango music.
Astrid ; )
P.S.
Calling a tango dancer a nazi is like calling a smoochie romantic dance
"zen".
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:59:16 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
(Answering the first Carol Ruth Shepherd letter.)
Carol, you writing so well !
That is why I decided to spent some time answering you.
Carol> Thank you for making this analogy. I quit the dance five years ago
because I was tired of "dance doctrine" being thrown in my face by
arrogant leads, in the middle of the dance floor. It has often struck
me that many tango purists are trying to time-travel and live in another
place and time.
Igor- That states clearly that you do not know how to dance tango. You quit
5 years ago!
But for some reason you feel yourself appropriate to criticize it.
>When we consider the origins and evolution of tango (or frankly, any
other organically developed street dance) the hypocrisy is doubly
laughable. There are these same arguments going on right now in the
lindy hop community, with certain upper-middle-class white college
students screechin' and preachin' about why one can only dance lindy hop
to music from certain approved black jazz artists in the early 30's.
- Because old music carries a blue print for advanced dancing !
It is proven with time. It looks like you belong to such people who once
meet any difficulties, instead of diligent learning, give up. And do
whatever is easier for you, like making your own dance.
And you are so arrogant that you call others "vintage" and yours -
"progress". To save your face:
you was not able to learn the dance !
> Popular dance (street dance) cannot help but evolve. It reverberates
with the cultural memes, body movements, clothing, images and beats from
the popular culture surrounding it. If it ain't movin', it's dead.
- Alternative Tango is not a street dance. Yes, it does reverberates with
what happens in culture nowadays, and that is precisely why many do not like
it, but I am not about it.
Alternative Tango is not a street dance, it is very very complex. More
complex than traditional tango. It is very difficult to learn it. And most
people just stop in the beginning, they luck culture and school of the old
dance. They move clumsy. They do not understand lead. They are unable to
make molinetes. They do not collect feet! Old tango was danced for 100 years
by millions of people with loads of music written in all continents, and
Alternative Tango is only no more than 10 years old danced by a handful of
freaks. You are totally aberrate the truth. It is opposite,
that is Tango what is a "street" dance, not Alternative Tango.
> To fix a dance in a style, a syllabus, a choreography chart, a set of
pre-ordained and pre-approved musical tracks, is to fossilize it like an
insect in amber. And then we call it vintage dance, to distinguish it
and its practitioners from organic, live, popular dance. There are
plenty of people out there who do vintage dance and it's a very cool
thing--with costumes and period music on period instruments and
sometimes even elaborate reenactments of certain historical events, such
as an inaugural ball. Vintage dance is a valid art form, but it is a
historical, traditionally accurate artform. It is not innovative.
- Popular dance is Argentine Tango. Not alternative Tango. The whole Buenos
Aires is dancing Argentine Tango, not like one club Meredith was talking
about. It is opposite to what you have said !! "fix a dance in style" ! Then
learn it first to have grounds to judge it. "pre-ordained musical tracks"!
Thousands of musical pieces! Masterpieces ! Tons of music ! And you do not
know it. I bet you are not able to distinguish between DiSarli and D'Arinezo
not to speak about others. Tango is not a vintage dance, it is a live dance,
and it is very innovative. And you just do not know about it.
In 1911 (!) they counted at least 800 tango figures ! Tango is forgotten.
Innovate inside it, nobody prohibits you, and in fact many do. But it
requires learning. It requires listening to those "arrogant leaders" who
through "dance doctrine" to you. Have you listened to good teachers? By the
way, when you dropped tango dancing 5 year ago, have you became an avid
dancer of Alternative Tango instead? Do you dance it well?
You said "To fix a dance in a style, a syllabus, a choreography chart, a set
of
pre-ordained and pre-approved musical tracks, is to fossilize it like an
insect in amber.". There is nothing farther from the truth than that. Any
dancing requires culture. It is complex phenomena. When one dances a certain
dance he has to know many thing about the dance to dance right. Like Salsa.
It is very popular dance. More popular than Tango, but it has very strict
rules. And nobody say it is fossilized. Once you obtain the skill of those
rules - you became free to express yourself in millions of ways! Rules are
set to make you more creative ! They show you the ways to be creative ! They
teach you to be creative ! They are to create common ground for all the
dancers around the world to dance together and have fun !
When you said below "As a dancer I can observe someone's dancing on the
floor, and then
decide whether I want to dance with them (having observed that they are
obviously a vintage dancer or obviously a neotango dancer)." That is exactly
you are looking for: "A fossilized" traces of Alternative Tango which has a
lot of them despite the fact that it is a very young dance. You are turning
the facts your own way ! You are unable to accept innovations in classical
dance. It is innovations to you if you do not know it, isn't it? Just
starting your own history, claming that you are alive and innovative, you
already became super-conservative. Just look at yourself in this light.
> As a dancer I can observe someone's dancing on the floor, and then
decide whether I want to dance with them (having observed that they are
obviously a vintage dancer or obviously a neotango dancer).
- Ask better either a "vintage" dancer would dance with you!
> It's too bad there are so many people in the tango community on the
extreme ends of this spectrum, and not too many in the middle, it makes
for a lot of mismatched expectations.]
- "In the middle" means dancing both? Traditional styles and Neo Styles?
There are many of such dancers. All good dancers of Neo Tango know how to
dance classical Argentine Tango well. It is just you are stupid enough not
to understand that this is exactly the reason why they are dancing Neo Tango
well. It is because they have the solid foundation of Classical Argentine
Tango.
> I'm sorry, but the words "tango" and "Argentine tango" are not
trademarked. The tango purists and the vintage dancers are not allowed
to forbid the use of these terms to all except the certified and
sanctified brethren who worship at the same altar.
- A lawyer says so ? Indeed. "Purists" "are not allowed to forbid" !? Jeee,
what a jargon.
They can not forbid. I guess someone disallowed them from it as you
mentioned. But they say that it is unethical to use the word in a wrong
contest. It is unrespectful. It is misleading.
So, I am sorry that they hit the wall. It looks like people like you do not
know the word Ethic.
> That being said...it is misleading to call a dance which only features
blues, jazz, and electrotango music a "milonga" or a night of "tango".
People are going to read publicity, show up, and their expectations for
their evening's entertainment are not going to be met. So I think we
should use "neotango" or "alternative milonga" to describe dances
featuring only these types of tandas, and I think we should give some
thought to using "traditional tango" and possibly "vintage tango" to
describe the dance as it is narrowly defined to a period of music and a
stylistic set of moves coming from an era--at least in discussion, if
not also in promotion.
- Thank you very much for your suggestions. What would we do without your
professional advice !
> Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
business, technology, entertainment and media law
"practical legal solutions for creative people"
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
-
Igor, a street real-live modern dancer of Argentine Tango
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:24:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
>
> m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com> writes:
>
> And if memory serves Piazzolla was a 'rebel' in his day
> as well, and most didn't consider his music 'tango' music
> either.
>
> And now it's a staple diet of 'golden age' tango music.
Huh? No it isn't.
Huck
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:15:42 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Nina,
Yes, you answered my questions. Muy bien.
Muchas gracias.
J
> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:05:24 -0700> From: nina@earthnet.net> To: tango-l@mit.edu> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....> > Hi, Jay,> > I will answer each one of your questions according to my experience.> > > Do not many Argentines dance tango steps to non-tango or pop music?> > Correct. Almost no one does it. Those who do, do not call it > Argentine Tango.> > > Can you say that these generally younger Argentines did not > > originate the practice?> > Correct. They did not. The very first time that the possibility of > tango being danced to anything other than tango was presented by > Daniel Trenner and Rebecca dancing to piece by Bob Telson in 1997-1998 > or so. Argentines frowned on it.> > > Do you have evidence in the history of the evolution of the > > non/neo-tango music phenomenon to justify your contention that it > > is "foreigners" who have started this behavior?> > There is a video of Daniel and Rebecca dancing to Bob Telson. Also, I > was there when !
this phenomena had began, was a part of it, danced it > every which way and felt pleased with myself for being so "radical". > Argentines continued to frown on it, but I did not care then. We even > tried to do it in BsAs when we (me and my European roommates) lived > there in the late 90s and we embarassed ourselves terribly trying to > dance tango to rock-and-roll when it was played in the milongas. So, > the evidence is the actual experience.> > Not, the whole thing just makes me laugh. When people begin to do > tango moves to non-tango music with an air of artistic avant-guard, I > realize how stupid we looked then and feel sorry for these people now. > But eventually they will learn, I have no doubt about it.> > Did I answer all your questions?> > Best regards,> > Nina
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:05:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music.... - who was first?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I am not sure if Nina's account of Daniel & Rebecca being
the first to dance tango to alternative music is correct.
I am sure Daniel & Rebecca did, but perhaps it was the
first public demonstration.
Last fall, I asked El Pulpo about his use of alternative
music. He laughed and said that with his father and
grandfather being bandoneonists, he got sick of tango music
when he was young and wanted to get away from it. Hence,
his interest in rock 'n roll.
In Jackie Wong's interview with him, he describes how he
and his friends would experiment and how he felt that he
had to hide it. His website also tells that he first
practiced tango to rock 'n roll, which were certainly
before the late 90's.
https://www.tangopulse.net/tango_interviews.htm
El Pulpo isn't interested in creating mini-Pulpos. Rather,
El Pulpo appreciates the freedom his teachers, the Dinzels,
gave him to create his own tango. It should be no surprise
that people in BsAs do not dance like him, because he is
not trying to recreate himself in others. However, I do
see glimpses of his teaching in others.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Nina,
>
> Yes, you answered my questions. Muy bien.
>
> Muchas gracias.
> J
>
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:05:24 -0700> From:
> nina@earthnet.net> To: tango-l@mit.edu> Subject: Re:
> [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....> > Hi, Jay,> > I will
> answer each one of your questions according to my
> experience.> > > Do not many Argentines dance tango steps
> to non-tango or pop music?> > Correct. Almost no one does
> it. Those who do, do not call it > Argentine Tango.> > >
> Can you say that these generally younger Argentines did
> not > > originate the practice?> > Correct. They did not.
> The very first time that the possibility of > tango being
> danced to anything other than tango was presented by >
> Daniel Trenner and Rebecca dancing to piece by Bob Telson
> in 1997-1998 > or so. Argentines frowned on it.> > > Do
> you have evidence in the history of the evolution of the
> > > non/neo-tango music phenomenon to justify your
> contention that it > > is "foreigners" who have started
> this behavior?> > There is a video of Daniel and Rebecca
> dancing to Bob Telson. Also, I > was there when !
> this phenomena had began, was a part of it, danced it >
> every which way and felt pleased with myself for being so
> "radical". > Argentines continued to frown on it, but I
> did not care then. We even > tried to do it in BsAs when
> we (me and my European roommates) lived > there in the
> late 90s and we embarassed ourselves terribly trying to >
> dance tango to rock-and-roll when it was played in the
> milongas. So, > the evidence is the actual experience.> >
> Not, the whole thing just makes me laugh. When people
> begin to do > tango moves to non-tango music with an air
> of artistic avant-guard, I > realize how stupid we looked
> then and feel sorry for these people now. > But
> eventually they will learn, I have no doubt about it.> >
> Did I answer all your questions?> > Best regards,> > Nina
>
> Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with
> Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
>
https://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:05:58 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music.... - who was first?
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Re: Pulpo & 'alternative' discussion...
I have hosted Luiza and Pulpo several times at Woodstock Tango, a three
year old community based on classic, traditional tango - music and
dance. Altho his reputation as an innovator attracts many 'neo/nuevo'
dancers to our sessions, their classes and workshops are always steeped
in and based upon classic tango technique...very precise, very detailed,
very technical. Altho his personal style might be considered
avant-garde...it is completely grounded in traditional technique
...something we don't see very often in many 'nuevo' social
dancers....not even close.
As the great jazz musician Lee Konitz has said... "you can't play
outside the tune if you can't play the tune...."
As for the comment by someone that classic tango music is 'not boring,
but 'almost' the opposite"...????? Helloooo???
what the heck does that mean... ? Since the opposite of Boring can be
said to be Interesting... does that mean he/she thinks tango music is
Almost Interesting????!!
For those of us who love classic tango, this music is among the most
interesting, beautiful, complex, soul-stirring music on earth and is
essential for dancing Argentine Tango.
my .02
Ilene
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
I am not sure if Nina's account of Daniel & Rebecca being
the first to dance tango to alternative music is correct.
I am sure Daniel & Rebecca did, but perhaps it was the
first public demonstration.
Last fall, I asked El Pulpo about his use of alternative
music. He laughed and said that with his father and
grandfather being bandoneonists, he got sick of tango music
when he was young and wanted to get away from it. Hence,
his interest in rock 'n roll.
In Jackie Wong's interview with him, he describes how he
and his friends would experiment and how he felt that he
had to hide it. His website also tells that he first
practiced tango to rock 'n roll, which were certainly
before the late 90's.
https://www.tangopulse.net/tango_interviews.htm
El Pulpo isn't interested in creating mini-Pulpos. Rather,
El Pulpo appreciates the freedom his teachers, the Dinzels,
gave him to create his own tango. It should be no surprise
that people in BsAs do not dance like him, because he is
not trying to recreate himself in others. However, I do
see glimpses of his teaching in others.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Nina,
>
> Yes, you answered my questions. Muy bien.
>
> Muchas gracias.
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:05:24 -0700> From:
>>
>>
>nina@earthnet.net> To: tango-l@mit.edu> Subject: Re:
>[Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....> > Hi, Jay,> > I will
>answer each one of your questions according to my
>experience.> > > Do not many Argentines dance tango steps
>to non-tango or pop music?> > Correct. Almost no one does
>it. Those who do, do not call it > Argentine Tango.> > >
>Can you say that these generally younger Argentines did
>not > > originate the practice?> > Correct. They did not.
>The very first time that the possibility of > tango being
>danced to anything other than tango was presented by >
>Daniel Trenner and Rebecca dancing to piece by Bob Telson
>in 1997-1998 > or so. Argentines frowned on it.> > > Do
>you have evidence in the history of the evolution of the
>
>
>>>non/neo-tango music phenomenon to justify your
>>>
>>>
>contention that it > > is "foreigners" who have started
>this behavior?> > There is a video of Daniel and Rebecca
>dancing to Bob Telson. Also, I > was there when !
> this phenomena had began, was a part of it, danced it >
>every which way and felt pleased with myself for being so
>"radical". > Argentines continued to frown on it, but I
>did not care then. We even > tried to do it in BsAs when
>we (me and my European roommates) lived > there in the
>late 90s and we embarassed ourselves terribly trying to >
>dance tango to rock-and-roll when it was played in the
>milongas. So, > the evidence is the actual experience.> >
>Not, the whole thing just makes me laugh. When people
>begin to do > tango moves to non-tango music with an air
>of artistic avant-guard, I > realize how stupid we looked
>then and feel sorry for these people now. > But
>eventually they will learn, I have no doubt about it.> >
>Did I answer all your questions?> > Best regards,> > Nina
>
>
>
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>I am not sure if Nina's account of Daniel & Rebecca being
>the first to dance tango to alternative music is correct.
>I am sure Daniel & Rebecca did, but perhaps it was the
>first public demonstration.
>
>Last fall, I asked El Pulpo about his use of alternative
>music. He laughed and said that with his father and
>grandfather being bandoneonists, he got sick of tango music
>when he was young and wanted to get away from it. Hence,
>his interest in rock 'n roll.
>
>In Jackie Wong's interview with him, he describes how he
>and his friends would experiment and how he felt that he
>had to hide it. His website also tells that he first
>practiced tango to rock 'n roll, which were certainly
>before the late 90's.
>https://www.tangopulse.net/tango_interviews.htm
>
>El Pulpo isn't interested in creating mini-Pulpos. Rather,
>El Pulpo appreciates the freedom his teachers, the Dinzels,
>gave him to create his own tango. It should be no surprise
>that people in BsAs do not dance like him, because he is
>not trying to recreate himself in others. However, I do
>see glimpses of his teaching in others.
>
>Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Nina,
>>
>> Yes, you answered my questions. Muy bien.
>>
>> Muchas gracias.
>> J
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:05:24 -0700> From:
>>>
>>>
>>nina@earthnet.net> To: tango-l@mit.edu> Subject: Re:
>>[Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....> > Hi, Jay,> > I will
>>answer each one of your questions according to my
>>experience.> > > Do not many Argentines dance tango steps
>>to non-tango or pop music?> > Correct. Almost no one does
>>it. Those who do, do not call it > Argentine Tango.> > >
>>Can you say that these generally younger Argentines did
>>not > > originate the practice?> > Correct. They did not.
>>The very first time that the possibility of > tango being
>>danced to anything other than tango was presented by >
>>Daniel Trenner and Rebecca dancing to piece by Bob Telson
>>in 1997-1998 > or so. Argentines frowned on it.> > > Do
>>you have evidence in the history of the evolution of the
>>
>>
>>>>non/neo-tango music phenomenon to justify your
>>>>
>>>>
>>contention that it > > is "foreigners" who have started
>>this behavior?> > There is a video of Daniel and Rebecca
>>dancing to Bob Telson. Also, I > was there when !
>> this phenomena had began, was a part of it, danced it >
>>every which way and felt pleased with myself for being so
>>"radical". > Argentines continued to frown on it, but I
>>did not care then. We even > tried to do it in BsAs when
>>we (me and my European roommates) lived > there in the
>>late 90s and we embarassed ourselves terribly trying to >
>>dance tango to rock-and-roll when it was played in the
>>milongas. So, > the evidence is the actual experience.> >
>>Not, the whole thing just makes me laugh. When people
>>begin to do > tango moves to non-tango music with an air
>>of artistic avant-guard, I > realize how stupid we looked
>>then and feel sorry for these people now. > But
>>eventually they will learn, I have no doubt about it.> >
>>Did I answer all your questions?> > Best regards,> > Nina
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>>Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with
>>Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
>>
>>
>>
>https://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:51:49 -0700
From: "Darrell Sanchez" <darsan@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Igor Polk wrote:
>- All good dancers of Neo Tango know how to dance classical Argentine Tango
well. It is just you are stupid enough not >to understand that this is
exactly the reason why they are dancing Neo Tango well. It is because they
have the solid foundation of Classical >Argentine Tango.
I have observed just the opposite. Most of the people I see in the
US doing neo-type tango are generally doing some odd and tangential
variation on the theme of classic tango and do not seem to have taken into
their bodies good foundations of the tango form.
I think there is distinction about music and tango today that is
important. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong and that is all
right, but, from my understanding, traditionally as the tango grew, changed
and developed there were many musicians that loved the tango. They created
and developed music specifically with that love of the music and the dance
in them. The dance and the music meant something to them and their culture.
Musicians and dancers were in a creative mutually enhancing relationship as
the music and the dance were evolving more closely together.
Today we are caught, to some degree, in a dilemma. With the lack of
a great pool of tango musicians and composers creating new developments of
the music from and through the foundations of tango we, as dancers, can feel
ourselves left waiting for the music to support our expanding explorations
of the dance. As dancers we cannot wait for a new batch of Troilos,
DiSarlis, Puglieses, Canaros, etc., to ride the crest of tango's
developments of the dance. Our choice is to dance to new music, which
ideally would come with respect to tango music origins, or to find something
new in the existing music.
Then there is the anxiety that, with the extensive volume of music
in the world and our easy accessibility to it, we will lose the relationship
between the music and the movement and we will lose what makes tango what it
essentially is. Bringing in music from other cultures and movement forms and
trying to fit the tango movements to these other independently developed
music forms, means a very different relationship of the music to the
movement than what traditionally occurred in the history of tango. In
addition, we may fear losing the respect and connection with the origins and
history of tango. As tango dancers we would be foolish to allow this to
happen. As a large global tango community involved, like it or not, in a
creative process, we must be able to hold both polarities.
As far as music, I think there is promise in groups like Narcotango,
Bajofundo, Gotan, et.al. They are creating new tango music. As far as tango
and foreigners, there is an interesting relationship of tango in Argentina
and tango in the rest of the world. A while ago I was at dinner with some
friends that included a quite well known Argentine tango teacher and long
time dancer. While conversing he confessed to us his sadness that Argentines
don't fully appreciate the value of tango. He lamented that it continually
took the rest of the world bringing tango back to Argentina for them to
repeatedly realize how important tango was to them. I think this is also
part of the history of tango.
Darrell Sanchez
Boulder, CO
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:02:58 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
To: Darrell Sanchez <darsan@mindspring.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Darrell Sanchez wrote:
> I have observed just the opposite.
And I have observed both - good dancers with the connection which
you should strive for in "classical" Argentine tango, but dancing
to something new, and dancers that can't seem to fathom how Argentine
tango works and then try "something else" to avoid having to learn
things alien to them.
No prizes for guessing which is more enjoyable to look at (let alone to be).
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Nina wrote:
>> Sharna Fabiano wrote ... Gotan Project, BajoFondo TangoClub, and most
>> notably Carlos Libedinsky are heralds of the new global tango.
>
> Is this a joke?
No, it is "brand development". But at least it is not as barefacedly
misrepresentative as Ms Fabiano's
> Tango dancing is proving to be a natural match with the majority of
> musical genres found in today's mainstream dance clubs.
What's saddest is that this stuff is mostly coming from those trying to
sell lessons in the "new" tango dancing. No wonder newcomers are confused.
> Sharna might be misinformed.
;)
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] "Alternative" Music....
*From:* Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:44:07 -0700
Musicians of tango, WHERE ARE YOU?!
Sharna Fabiano wrote in her article "The
breakthrough creations of contemporary artists
such as the Gotan Project, BajoFondo TangoClub,
and most notably Carlos Libedinsky are heralds of the new global tango. "
Is this a joke?
Discussing these works with real musicians, I
learned that his is simplistic music that cannot
even be compared with depth, complexity and
challenge of tangos that are written in the
traditional formation of tango, meaning
polyphonic. Gotan, Lebidinsky and the rest of
them create simple music, not polyphonic. IT IS
THE POLYPHONIC FORMATION OF TANGO THAT MAKES IT A TANGO.
I think that musicians need to discuss
this. Sharna might be misinformed. In Buenos
Aires today, only one orchestra is actually
getting the attention and respect for doing
something new in the real formation of tango and
that is the Fierro orchestra. They are making
their own arrangements and they are actually
innovating tango, real polyphonic tango.
But where are the musicians? Please show up and
discuss this from your perspective so that there
is some accuracy to this discussion of music.
Best,
Nina
At 11:29 AM 2/24/2007, Carol Shepherd wrote:
>Sharna Fabiano has given me permission to post this article to the list,
>so we can read and discuss.
>
>-------------
>The Rise of Neo Tango Music
>? copyright Sharna Fabiano 2003
>https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
>
>The reawakening of the argentine tango at the turn of the new century is
>that of a great spirit rising after a deep slumber. In its recent
>revival since the late eighties, the tango has inspired legions of new
>dancers all over the globe with its powerful partner connection and
>intricate, elegant movements. Of late, momentum is gathering for a
>revolutionary wave to crash into the tango world. Young dancers are
>experimenting with new concepts in tango social dance, and along with
>them contemporary tango musicians are inventing a hybrid sound that
>blends traditional instrumentation with modern electronic music. I call
>this new wave "Neo Tango."
>
>The breakthrough creations of contemporary artists such as the Gotan
>Project, BajoFondo TangoClub, and most notably Carlos Libedinsky are
>heralds of the new global tango. These artists have blended tango with
>contemporary electronic music. Commenting on his newly released CD,
>NARCOTANGO, Carlos writes:
>
>"At the hour when there are only a few couples left on the dance floor,
>magic sneaks into the Milonga, and I watch people dancing and
>experimenting with a new kind of Tango dance. When my body is exhausted
>>from dancing for hours and I don't want the night to end, at that hour
>NARCOTANGO was born. It was then that I could imagine the music that I
>wanted to dance to, and to see others dance to."
>
>Until very recently, nearly all of the music used for dancing today's
>social tango has been taken from old recordings of Golden Age
>orchestras. Even most young tango bands tend to fill their repertoire
>with compositions from that period. But our era is different from the
>Golden Age of tango in Buenos Aires (1930s-50s). We have different
>musical instruments and technologies, different social venues, and
>different styles of dress. All of these things inspire today's tango
>dancers and musicians to play and improvise in new ways.
>
>However, there is something familiar about this creative urge. One might
>say, in fact, that invention and experimentation are at the very root of
>the tango tradition. Let's recall that in the early 1900's, hopeful
>immigrants from Italy, Germany, Eastern Europe, Africa, and various
>South American countries all converged on Argentina?s port city of
>Buenos Aires, bringing with them not only their hopes and dreams, but
>also their portable instruments and their cultural traditions. Like
>today, it was an atmosphere of discovery, conflict, and social
>adjustment. As the disparate members of Buenos Aires' early century
>melting pot gathered together, the tango was born. Today, we witness its
>re-birth. Creeping into the souls of enthusiasts around the globe, the
>tango is searching for a current musical context.
>
>This is why modern and culturally relevant music is so essential to
>effectively renew the spirit of the tango. The "Neo Tangos" that the
>aforementioned groups have produced are hybrids of traditional
>instrumentation and electronic sound, artistically bridging the gap
>between the Golden Age and the new millenium. This hybrid tango music
>strikes a chord with mass audiences, and its vibration has the potential
>to generate not only small gatherings of aficionados, but an
>international social and artistic movement.
>
>Neo Tango cannot be dismissed as the latest addition to the thriving
>'world music' genre because it is not limited to the fusion of
>electronic music with traditional instruments. On the contrary, so deep
>is the need for new tangos that adventurous dancers of today are
>claiming music from genres across the board: blues, rock, disco, fado,
>and countless world music sub-categories. Phrases like 'alternative
>tango' and 'non-tango' are already standard lingo. At a workshop on this
>subject in Rochester, NY, my students came up with three essential
>characteristics that a compelling Neo Tango shares with a Golden Age
>Tango: 1. It has a consistent, walkable tempo; 2. It tells a story
>through melodic and rhythmic sophistication; 3. It has powerful
>emotional substance.
>
>Popular music and tango music are circling each other out there in the
>collective unconscious, like two planets approaching alignment.
>Starbucks' new record label Hear Music accidentally (as far as I know)
>produced a few Neo Tango albums recently. More than half the songs on
>volumes 1, 2, 4, and 5 are functional for dancing tango. Even more
>exciting is local phenomenon Thievery Corporation's latest album Richest
>Man in Babylon, which Rolling Stone describes as "stories of a better
>world." Several tracks on this album fits requirements 1-3 above.
>
>Earlier this year I gave a tango performance at a screening of the film
>The Truth About Charlie (a remake of the classic Charade). The script
>now has a tango bar scene in place of the original jazz bar scene, and
>shockingly enough features the music of the Gotan Project and Llasa de
>Sela, an utterly non-tango artist widely played by tango
>experimentalists. Coincidence? I think not. Someone in the film industry
>has a finger on the pulse, so to speak. Already, regional music
>preferences have begun to emerge within the global tango community, and
>DJs are beginning to win accolades for their distinctive tastes in
>non-traditional tangos. Dan Kesmayr writes from Germany:
>
>"Here in Munich, we have a milonga called "Tango-Fusion" which basically
>is a mix between a milonga and a dance club event. The music that gets
>played is [traditional] tango (3 out of 20 songs?), stuff like Gotan
>project, Bajofondo, some songs from soundtracks to the movies "Amelie",
>"Chicago", and some more music that I cannot categorize, probably
>nujazz, house etc. It was never intended as a replacement for classical
>milongas, but in my world it is a really essential addition."
>
>Dan's description of 'his world' reminds me suspiciously of the 1940's,
>when most Buenos Aires neighborhoods had their own orchestras, and
>dancers would choose where to go dancing depending on who was playing.
>Today, we have a wider variety to choose from, and I think we will soon
>see more events like Dan's cropping up in cities around the globe. Even
>in Buenos Aires there is an avant-gard milonga called "La Catedral"
>where you hear classical music, jazz, and other unexpected sounds
>innocently floating out of the sound system and the very end of the night.
>
>Dancers today have music available to them that spans many decades and
>many countries. It has been the general assumption until now that there
>was a natural ceiling on the growth of tango, namely because traditional
>music and traditional atmosphere only appeal to a small segment of
>today's population. The manifestation of neo tango music in the tango
>world breaks that ceiling. Young people especially are drawn by the
>eclectic sound and by the fun and experimental atmosphere that typically
>accompanies it. Andrew Burt writes from Portland,
>
>"I DJ the 'mixed music' practica here in Portland, and I think it's
>great for the younger side of community building. It infuses a lot of
>joy, gaiety, and humor into the dancing, and there's a lot more laughing
>than you normally hear."
>
>We can get a glimpse of what might happen with tango by observing the
>development and integration of latin music and dancing into the latino
>bar and club scene. Exposed to jazz, rock, and other external influences
>since 1950, salsa dancing has persisted, through infinite permutations,
>as it began, a natural part of social life in latino social communities.
>Because Neo Tango reaches into a multitude of genres, its ramifications
>if a similar integration takes place are likely to be enormous. Tango
>dancing is proving to be a natural match with the majority of musical
>genres found in today's mainstream dance clubs. If social tango dancing
>becomes the norm in even 1% of such venues, social culture as we know it
>will be altered beyond recognition, and we just might find ourselves in
>the Platinum Age of Tango. [For more on the power of tango in social
>culture, see Sharna's previous article, The Social Dance Network.]
>
>The truth is that young dancers have been restless for several years
>now, anticipating the appearance of this new music. Using as a base the
>work of the "tango investigation" practice group begun by Argentine
>visionaries Gustavo Naveira and Fabian Salas in Buenos Aires, young
>dancers are inventing new moves, new embraces, and new clothes for
>dancing. Tango has benefited immensely from the influence of salsa and
>swing vocabulary, and underarm turns, spins, and changes of arms provide
>rich material for this next evolution of social dance.
>
>And so the contemporary tango music library is growing, and with it the
>allure of tango for a key portion of the 20- and 30-something
>demographic. The songs have the tango's unmistakable 'walking beat' and
>the edge of the new millenia in their melodies. The urge to innovate and
>reinvent is at the very core of the tango - contemporary evidence
>includes mixing string instruments with sythnesizers, salsa turns with
>conventional tango figures, denim with fishnets.
>
>
>--
>Carol Ruth Shepherd
>Arborlaw Associates PLLC
>business, technology, entertainment and media law
>"practical legal solutions for creative people"
>Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
>734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
>https://www.arborlaw.com
>
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