42 Ballroom tango
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:46:53 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Ballroom tango
I went to see a friend of mine compete in a ballroom
event. During the event there was also a
demonstration of Argentine tango. I've seen some
other presentations of Argentine tango choreographed
by ballroom instructors.
It's definitely not American tango that I'm seeing,
but it sure ain't Argentine either! What gives?
I think it looks very peculiar. It isn't just because
it's choreography. The style is weird. For example,
the woman's ochos are done without the ankles
together. They've all done that, so it seems like a
stylistic choice. I find it unappealing.
Does anybody know the style I'm talking about? I
think it would be fun to work out choreography with a
partner and dance one of these demonstrations, but is
there some (non-Argentine) standard we must conform
to, the way you have to conform to International
standards in ballroom? Or can I put together a
routine the way I like it?
Mark
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:10:51 -0700
From: "Larry E. Carroll" <larrydla@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom tango
There are two major kinds of "ballroom" tango.
The "International" kind was created by the British and is specified in
the kind of detail you see
in manufacturing blueprints. This is the kind you see in so-called
Dancesport competitions, with
its lizard-like head flicks and both partners leaning far away from each
other as if to avoid the
other's bad breath. I don't recall if it has ochos or not. If so, they
are not used much in
competitions.
The American tango is the kind you used to see in old Hollywood movies.
It is a little bit closer to
the Argentine tango. Its ochos are called fans; the feet do not come
close together, as they do in
the Argentine style.
The Danes have a third variety which you rarely see outside their
country.
_____
The Argentine tango has changed a lot since its creation. The kind you
see in Argentine movies
made in the 1940s, the "Golden Age" of tango, resembles the style that
'Mingo Pugliese and his
family teach. It is based on the molinete, and has the two partners
circling each other all the time.
These figures were done in very crowded floors but the partners had a
little distance separating
them, reflecting the mass culture of the time that wanted the tango to be
genteel.
The rectangular figures that we see outside Argentina today seem to have
been created by show
dancers rather than social dancers. It's ironic that much of Nuevo tango
focuses on the molinete
and its "straightened out" variations, a return to the older figures. But
then the core teachers of
Nuevo tango seem to have dropped the "Nuevo" label for themselves.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:13:36 EDT
From: Clifton Chow <TangoPassionMoon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Ballroom Tango & Argentine Tango
Hello my fellow Tangueros y Tangueras,
As I have been following the discussion on American and International Styles
of Ballroom Tango, I must share a story with you all about my experiences
with ballroom Tango. On New Year's Eve I attended a private party in Beverly
Hills, CA. At this party there were at least 2 or 3 male escorts whose
primary function was to dance with females at the party who do not have
partners. Whenever the host would announce he was playing "Tango," I and my
partner would go out on to the dance floor with these other couples. While
we were dancing Argentine Tango, these other couples with their head arched
outwards, would glide to Ballroom Tango. The music was awkward. I had
considerable difficulty following the rhythm. But the more I danced the more
I felt very self-conscious because we were the only couple dancing Argentine
Tango. In fact, I found it easier to follow traditional Waltz music than I
did their rendition of "Tango."
The highpoint came when there was a game called "musical dance," in which,
like musical dance, we must dance around the ballroom as music plays and find
vacant chairs as quickly as possible when the music stops playing. We won
the game because, using technique we learned in Argentine Tango, we were able
to maneuvre around the floor more efficiently and easily (around other
couples) than did the ballroom tangueros (who seemed too restricted to their
rigid form. I mean, how can they see the chairs that are located in the
center of the room if their heads keep pointing outwards?).
Keep dancing,
Clifton de Boston
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:55:47 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: cortes y quebradas - Ballroom Tango origins
Hey, Tom!
You just have mentioned something which I was thinking recently for days!
Watching Ballroom Tango I have found for myself that most elements they
dance are really taken from Argentine Tango.
Yes, they are changed, stripped from many wonderful things, but I just feel
the roots. Even their woman's hold with the left hand - it is ennobling
"grip"!
Except "jerking" with the heads and
except these "lunges":
http://members.isp01.net/hfsears/imAlbumPg/figures6.html
I was wondering where they are from. I have thought it is from waltz.
And you said that "deep lunges seem to refer back to a vestigial Quebrada"
It is a great insight, thank you!!!
So the hypothesis now is that "lunges" came from Quebrada.
Now, knowing how they transformed tango elements, we have to go dipper to
find out what the real quebrada was, was it danced by a man too?
There are plenty of tango images from 1910s. I have one. May by somebody
could look through their collection, and find anything looking like "lunge"?
So, what these "jerking" with the heads came from?
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:35:44 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: cortes y quebradas - Ballroom Tango origins
> So the hypothesis now is that "lunges" came from Quebrada.
They came right from ballet dancing...
> So, what these "jerking" with the heads came from?
This is what Europeans considered (NB: still consider) dramatic and
passionate. There is no real promenade position in argentine tango, while it
was an integral part of ballroom dances at the time. So they transformed
some tango steps using ballroom technique. The jerky movements came MUCH
MUCH later. I saw ballroom competitions from the 1950s. The tango resembled
the argentine form a lot more than it does today. The change from closed
position to promenade was the main cause for the jerky movement, and it was
invented by ballroom dancers (probably it was picked up as a trend at some
time and it stuck).
Best wishes,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
http://www.milonga.hu/
"Follow those who seek the truth.
Run from those who claim to have found it."
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:22:07 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: cortes y quebradas - Ballroom Tango origins
Bruno, thank you!
I will try to do what I imagine from your suggestion, should be good!
Thank you!
Aron,
I sort of do not feel like I agree with you.
For example.
Say we dance "cheek to cheek looking in opposite directions". Then if I do
something what Bruno suggested in a way that I go into promenade position
which is very tango, we have to change to "cheek to cheek looking in the
same direction".
A woman must rotate her head. And since this "quebrada"-like move is pretty
sharp, it may produce the impression of "jerking", which was exaggerated in
Ballroom Tango.
So it may originate from any element requiring to change "cheek to cheek"
directions which has perfect sense in close embrace tango. For example going
to the left in promenade, then going to the right, and so on, and so on..
What about an open style when a woman deliberately do not look at the
partner, but away from him? In ochos it should produce something like "fast
head rotation". Should look cool in forward ochos!
Igor Polk
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:26:27 +0100
From: John Ward <johnofbristol@TISCALI.CO.UK>
Subject: Ballroom tango - head snaps, etc
I quote from "The History of English Ballroom Dancing" by PJS Richardson:
About this time [1934] a considerable change came into the "style" (not the steps) of the tango, due to the introduction of an exaggerated =
staccato movement which certainly did not improve the dance. As originally introduced by the Argentines about 1933, this crisp and =
snappy movement was not unattractive but was confined to the legs and feet - the body still preserving its smooth carriage. In Germany this =
style became very popular and was soon exaggerated and in its exaggerated form crept into England. Mr Camp, an amateur, was one of the =
first to exploit it. Undoubtedly, too, the very theatrical steps of the Paso Doble, in which the movements of a bullfighter are suggested, had a =
very big effect on the tango. Competitors found that these exaggerated movements, particularly a sudden turn of the head when changing =
direction, earned the plaudits of the spectators if not the marks of the judges.
And in the following chapter:
The tango controversy reached a somewhat acute pitch when Mr and Mrs Fichter, doing a smooth quiet tango, were awarded the Dorothy Cole =
Challenge Bowl at the Hammersmith Palais [in 1936], just beating the popular favourites, Mr Camp and Miss Pasqual, doing a very staccato =
tango, by the odd vote.
I have an EP "Strict Tempo Dancing - Tango" by Horst Wende which I bought about 1965. "Recommended as a dance disc by the German Dancing =
Teachers Association". It is very fast, very staccato - particularly the last tune on the disc. "Championship Tango". When dancing to it one has =
to do the head snaps. It would do an injustice to the music to leave them out.
John Ward
Bristol, UK
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:51:59 -0700
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: early tango and ballroom tango circa 1997
I have personal experience with the joys of speculating about things you haven't looked into that thoroughly, but I would like to point out an ancient post regarding early tango and ballroom tango, among other things.
Here's a quote. "I imagine that some listmembers might refuse to believe that the early Buenos Aires tango was similar to today's European/American social
ballroom tango."
See for yourselves in the archives -
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:53:21 -0700
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:38:36 -0400
From: Richard deSousa <mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: early tango and ballroom tango circa 1997
I guess my history of tango is not as extensive as I believed.
Sent: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:51:59 -0700
Subject: [TANGO-L] early tango and ballroom tango circa 1997
I have personal experience with the joys of speculating about things you haven't
looked into that thoroughly, but I would like to point out an ancient post
regarding early tango and ballroom tango, among other things.
Here's a quote. "I imagine that some listmembers might refuse to believe that
the early Buenos Aires tango was similar to today's European/American social
ballroom tango."
See for yourselves in the archives -
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:53:21 -0700
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:10:51 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: early tango and ballroom tango circa 1997
Here's a link to one of Richard Powers' postings:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.dance/msg/fa926802e893866c
> Yes, I have detailed, illustrated descriptions of El Tango
> Argentino de
> Salon written by Argentine dance instructors in Buenos Aires in
> 1914, and
> it is (was) VERY similar to today's social ballroom tango, and not too
> much like today's tango Argentino. Again because 'gringo' dancers
> have
> had no reason to change it, and Argentines have.
>
> Richard
He does point out that the International style tango is much changes,
for example the head snaps.
On Apr 12, 2006, at 8:51 AM, steve pastor wrote:
> Richard Powers
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:31:32 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Early tango and Ballroom tango
Dear Richard,
The early Argentine Tango did not remble Ballroom Tango at
all. It was like the tango Canyengue.
The europeans were introduced to Argentine Tango by visiting Argentines that
belonged to the high class and whose families owned homes both in Buenos
Aires and in Paris, London or Rome.
Those families usually sent their children to study in Europe.
The tango introduced to Europe had already been "sanitized" somewhat in
argentina to make it more acceptable.
It was totally different from ballroom in many aspects: It was
asymmetrical, (man and woman execute different foot work), it was danced
with an unusual freedom to follow the music (it could be danced , single
time, double time, with pauses, fast or slow, etc), it had an un usual
embrace, (upper body close and lower body apart), it was danced
concentrating in the music, for feeling rather than for fun, the gaze
directed to the left hand of the man or to each other.
Richards Powers claims that "Yes, I have detailed, illustrated descriptions
of El Tango Argentino de
Salon written by Argentine dance instructors in Buenos Aires in 1914, and
it is (was) VERY similar to today's social ballroom tango, and not too
much like today's tango Argentino. Again because 'gringo' dancers have
had no reason to change it, and Argentines have. "
The truth (IMO) is that the illustrated descriptions of Tango Argentino de
Salon written in 1914 is the version of Nicanor Lima . Who was over
concerned with making the tango acceptable by respectable people of high
class in Europe.
Judge by yourselves: The argentine Tango preserved during its evolution its
characteristics as described above.
The Ballroom tango changed everything to make it similar to the other
ballroom dances.
It became symmetrical (the woman and the man do the same foot work, one the
mirror of the other), it has to be danced to a prescribed tempo, sets of
Slow-Slow- quick- quick-slow or some variations of the same. The embrace was
changed to conform to the other dances, upper body apart the gaze directed
in different directions, the bodies closer at the lower part. The feeling
and concentration was changed, snaps of the head were added. The
choreography modified to adjust to the new embrace and fixed patterns of
slows and quicks.
The result of all this was the creation of a beautiful new dance the
Ballroom tango which is different from the original and present Argentine
Tango.
This is my opinion others may think differently.
Sergio
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:05:20 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Early tango and Ballroom tango
Sergio,
Do you want to tell that tango danced in high-class salons of Buenos Aires
in 1914 was not Argentine Tango?
Igor Polk
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 01:30:50 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Argentine and Ballroom Tango
Igor asks: "Sergio,
Do you want to tell that tango danced in high-class salons of Buenos Aires
in 1914 was not Argentine Tango?
Igor Polk"
I never said that. I said or implied that the tango as it came from the
periphery was "purified" of the so called "indecent moves" such as certain
"cortes and quebradas" so that it could be presented in society and taken to
the high class of Europe.
This modified tango was as Argentine as the prior one, even when this
variation was not acceptable in Argentine either. Argentine society only
recognized it when it was accepted in Europe.
Actually a part of Argentine society has continued to show conptempt for our
dear tango till nowadays.
I hope that this explains your doubts.
Sergio
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:46:33 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENINET.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
Sergio writes:
> The Ballroom tango changed everything to make it similar to the other
> ballroom dances.
>
> It became symmetrical (the woman and the man do the same foot work, one the
> mirror of the other), it has to be danced to a prescribed tempo, sets of
> Slow-Slow- quick- quick-slow or some variations of the same. The embrace was
> changed to conform to the other dances, upper body apart the gaze directed
> in different directions, the bodies closer at the lower part. The feeling
> and concentration was changed, snaps of the head were added. The
> choreography modified to adjust to the new embrace and fixed patterns of
> slows and quicks.
Two other thing you might mention is that they
threw away most of the music and limited it to
tangos that sound more like clipped, military marches,
and as a result of this, all the different beautiful
subtle moods of tango were trashed as well, the only
emotion allowed being some sort of fierce, macho parody
somewhat akin to a man raping a woman (I'm speaking
of international-standard here), or some clowns on
psychedelics (American tango).
> The result of all this was the creation of a beautiful
> new dance the Ballroom tango
Yeah, I suppose, if you're tripping on drugs.
Wow. Either you're a lot more generous than I am,
or I'm witnessing an admirable example of the marvellous
Argentine diplomacy. :)
Huck
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:51:02 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
After reading the Huck's message I have to reply.
Music for tango dancing in salons of Buenos Aires and Paris, and Berlin, and
Moscow in 1915-1940 was very similar.
I refer to the style I would call "Salon style of 20s". Good music. For
example, German Oskar Joost. Argentinean point of reference: Lomuto "Bacan
Fulero", 1927. In France there was a lot of Argentinean orchestras. Canaro
was there too! Well, everyone knows that.
The dance they have danced was not like your passionate description of the
modern ballroom tango.
Than something happened. When I listen to recording of Russian Oskar Strok,
tangos recorded in 1940s where rhythmically elaborate and melodically reach
and sounded very much like Argentinean of the same style. Recorded in 50s
and since then - a bunch of, what you would call, "military marches",
ballroom "easy music", crap. Pop-culture?
What you, Huck, is referring, does not represent the epoch we are talking
about: 1914. It is, I believe, of misunderstanding that "Salon" dancing (
Which I guess we finally figured out was the same throughout the world) and
modern "Ballroom" tango are totally different things in music and style of
dancing. Why? I do not know. Someone has an idea?
I am very limited in my knowledge of non-argentinean good tangos: I do not
have much time to dig deep. If you know someone, please, tell me: I want to
restore an atmosphere when every one danced tango: tango was the most
popular social dance in the world for a long long time. Especially, I am
looking for American and British tango. I know tango was danced widely in
here.
Regarding pure "Ballroom" Tango music. Come to a store. Look what Argentine
tango selection they have - they do not have good dancing music there.
Diamonds are not on the surface!
I hope there is very good modern ballroom music. Tell me, please, about it!
Thank you!
Igor Polk
PS
I have seen the recording of Richards Powers's staging of 1914 Salon Style
Tango made with his group. It is beautiful! On the same tape there was 2
dances of Ballroom tango in International and American styles made by good
dancers... It is an amazing and very complex dance. Very high class. Way
above average "master" level in our beloved hobby.
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:46:13 -0800
From: Kim Papineau <kim@PAPINEAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
Huck,
Surely it isn't necessary to bash one style of dance in order to praise
another. Whatever the history, ballroom (American / International) tango and
Argentine tango are now two distinct dances. But different does not equal
bad.
While Argentine tango is my preference and passion, I've done and seen
enough of the other styles to appreciate and respect them. Done correctly,
all are passionate and elegant.
If you sincerely think all ballroom tango is macho rape parody / psychodelic
clowning, your exposure to the dance must be sadly limited. Too much reality
tv, perhaps?
Kim
> Two other thing you might mention is that they
> threw away most of the music and limited it to
> tangos that sound more like clipped, military marches,
> and as a result of this, all the different beautiful
> subtle moods of tango were trashed as well, the only
> emotion allowed being some sort of fierce, macho parody
> somewhat akin to a man raping a woman (I'm speaking
> of international-standard here), or some clowns on
> psychedelics (American tango).
>
> > The result of all this was the creation of a beautiful
> > new dance the Ballroom tango
>
> Yeah, I suppose, if you're tripping on drugs.
>
> Wow. Either you're a lot more generous than I am,
> or I'm witnessing an admirable example of the marvellous
> Argentine diplomacy. :)
>
> Huck
>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:27:55 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Argentine and Ballroom Tango
It is nice we are getting more information about this. Please Sergio,
which were the cortes and quebradas that were removed from 1910
tango. It would be nice to have the specific moves described so we
can see the differences.
This is two decades before I have any good information about tango IN
Argentina.
I do know from my readings and talking with Eduardo Arquimbau and
Juan Bruno that many clubs in the late 1930s and 1940s did not permit
cortes and quebradas, as they were considered vulgar. That is very
late in the tango development. Sergio is describing an earlier
purification. I really know very little about those earlier argentine
tango forms. Most of the practitioners are probably dead and we don't
have films from that era.
The earliest tango video images I have seen are Rudy Valentino in the
1920s film "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse". He danced a sort of
rustic "ballroom-like" tango in the famous bordello scene. As
Valentino was a dance teacher and taxi-dancer in the 1910s, I imagine
that he performed what he thought was "real tango as he knew it".
Also, I imagine that hollywood gussied it up a little for the movie.
The gaucho outfit is pretty wild. However, if you watch his dance
during the scene in the little cottage in the pampas, it is clear
that they are dancing a waltz. That's pretty interesting!
I've not seen the Richard Powers source material, so I can't comment
directly on it. I'm ready to believe both sides, i.e. that the
ballroom tango has roots in 1910 Argentine tango and it changed, plus
that Argentine tango itself changed. It just makes sense when we are
dealing with living cultures.
I have also not seen anyone showing the tango of the 1910s. I've seen
a few people presenting (what they imagine is?) the tango of the
early 1930s, which I believe they called canyengue. I'm not sure what
label to give to earlier forms of tango from the 1910s. You listen to
the music of the 10s, and it is often sort of march-like. The music
from the 20s is sort of tango-milonga, then from the 30s we get the
de Caro and D'Arienzo split, and in the 1940s all the richness of the
other famous orchestras.
So, we must have three versions of tango before the 1940s version
that we are familiar with: Canyengue, pre-canyengue and pre-pre-
canyengue?
I know from my reading that tango was also present in the port cities
of France, so it wasn' just "jailaifs" from rich families, but also
sailors, who must have known a lower class of tango. Also, there are
references to 100s of argentines teaching tango in France (possibly
an exaggeration), but the complaint was that it was hard for an
argentine to make a living because of the competition from previous
instructors. I can imagine these teachers might present some parts of
tango, and possibly not others, but I have no good documentation. Did
they teach a performance version or the social style? Open or close?
Who knows for sure?
The British codified things in the 1930s, and possibly in the 1920s.
The American form came from Paris in the 1910s with the Castles, so
that pre-dated the British rules.
Also, I know that ballroom tango has lunges and dips. Are these
examples of cortes and quebradas? Maybe not all the moves were purified?
On Apr 12, 2006, at 7:30 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> Igor asks: "Sergio,
>
> Do you want to tell that tango danced in high-class salons of
> Buenos Aires
> in 1914 was not Argentine Tango?
>
> Igor Polk"
>
> I never said that. I said or implied that the tango as it came from
> the
> periphery was "purified" of the so called "indecent moves" such as
> certain
> "cortes and quebradas" so that it could be presented in society and
> taken to
> the high class of Europe.
>
> This modified tango was as Argentine as the prior one, even when this
> variation was not acceptable in Argentine either. Argentine society
> only
> recognized it when it was accepted in Europe.
>
> Actually a part of Argentine society has continued to show
> conptempt for our
> dear tango till nowadays.
>
> I hope that this explains your doubts.
>
> Sergio
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:39:03 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
For good vintage ballroom music, see the three self-recorded CDs and
Videos (silent movies with music!) by the Denver orchestra:
Mont Alto Ragtime & Tango Orchestra.
http://www.mont-alto.com/
Fine musicians, very nice music. There are a few tangos; also some
foxtrots, waltzes, quicksteps, even some half-and-halfs. Order
directly from the orchestra.
Mont Alto is accustomed to playing for dancers once a month in the
Denver area. I've seen them play orchestra music to "Four Horsemen of
the Apocalypse" and it was the Mont Alto band leader who pointed out
the waltz for the pampas cottage scene.
Once, when the movie stuck and blew up, they ad-libbed for five
minutes while the projectionist fixed the projector. That is classy
musicianship.
On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:51 PM, Igor Polk wrote:
> ...What you, Huck, is referring, does not represent the epoch we
> are talking
> about: 1914. It is, I believe, of misunderstanding that "Salon"
> dancing (
> Which I guess we finally figured out was the same throughout the
> world) and
> modern "Ballroom" tango are totally different things in music and
> style of
> dancing. Why? I do not know. Someone has an idea?
>
> I am very limited in my knowledge of non-argentinean good tangos: I
> do not
> have much time to dig deep. If you know someone, please, tell me: I
> want to
> restore an atmosphere when every one danced tango: tango was the most
> popular social dance in the world for a long long time. Especially,
> I am
> looking for American and British tango. I know tango was danced
> widely in
> here.
> ...
> Thank you!
>
> Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:16:22 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENINET.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
Kim Papineau writes:
> Huck,
>
> Surely it isn't necessary to bash one style of dance in order to praise
> another.
Correct.
> Whatever the history, ballroom (American / International) tango and
> Argentine tango are now two distinct dances. But different does not equal
> bad.
Correct, it doesn't. Bad equals bad.
> If you sincerely think all ballroom tango is macho rape parody / psychodelic
> clowning, your exposure to the dance must be sadly limited.
That does not logically follow at all. You're confusing
your opinion of ballroom tango with some sort of universal
absolute.
Unfortunately, my exposure is not sadly limited. I've
seen many ballroom competitions. Alas, one must sit through
the tango to watch the good stuff, like the waltz and foxtrot.
Actually, I enjoy studying both American and I.S. tango since
I take lessons for free (and have done so for years) at the
university where I work, and I think both are barrels of fun
to dance. But that doesn't change my opinion about what I said
about them. It's also barrels of fun to get drunk at a party
and wear a lampshade on your head.
Huck
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:24:47 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENINET.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
Igor Polk writes:
> Music for tango dancing in salons of Buenos Aires and Paris, and Berlin, and
> Moscow in 1915-1940 was very similar.
> I refer to the style I would call "Salon style of 20s". Good music. For
> example, German Oskar Joost. Argentinean point of reference: Lomuto "Bacan
> Fulero", 1927. In France there was a lot of Argentinean orchestras. Canaro
> was there too! Well, everyone knows that.
>
> The dance they have danced was not like your passionate description of the
> modern ballroom tango.
>
> Than something happened.
Well I don't know if it's true or not, but a former
ballroom champion I know who teaches at the university
and who's spent his life on ballroom has done research and
claims that none other than Adolph Hitler himself disapproved
of Argentine tango music as too "sissified," didn't consider
it fit for German men to dance to for that reason, and was
very influential in effecting the change of International
Standard to the more crisp, macho military style. My
friend's ballroom credentials are impeccable, but I can't
vouch one way or the other for his research. It would seem
to at least come close to your timeline, however.
Huck
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:34:52 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
Well, the latest German tango I have is 1942.
It is pretty "sissified" ;)
Here is a funny citation from Eyewitness Books's "Dance", 2005, page 9:
"Banned Dances.
Some dances are disapproved of so much by society that they are banned. In
1913, German army and navy personnel could be dismissed for dancing the
tango...".
It looks like tango in America was danced well before 1914 ( Castles ).
See Maurice, "The tango and the new dances for ballroom and home", Chicago,
Laird & Lee, inc., c1914
Igor Polk.
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 02:57:38 -0600
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
Here are some pictures from early Tango and Candombe or Cayengue/Canyengue.
http://www.milonga.org/Tango_Pictures.html
Cheers,
Bruno
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:12:57 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
> claims that none other than Adolph Hitler himself disapproved
> of Argentine tango music as too "sissified," didn't consider
> it fit for German men to dance to for that reason, and was
> very influential in effecting the change of International
> Standard to the more crisp, macho military style.
> Huck
I have never heard such a thing in my life, but I did a most unusual search
on google for hitler+tango. Good grief, there were more than pages of links
in regard to that subject. Anybody willing to fork through all that, tell me
what they came up with.
still shaking my head
Astrid
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:07:40 +0200
From: Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Argentine and Ballroom Tango
> from 1910 tango. It would be nice to have the specific moves
> described so we can see the differences.
> Also, I know that ballroom tango has lunges and dips. Are
> these examples of cortes and quebradas? Maybe not all the
> moves were purified?
I was a (international style) ballroom dancer once in the distant past... :)
My impression is that most of the fancy moves in international standard are
almost universal through many even if not all the dances (the Viennese Waltz
is always an exception, as it has only a handful of figures).
Said lunges,dips along with a lot of quasi-tango like figures are also
present in slow waltz, slow fox, quickstep.
My theory is that ballroom dancers of the early 1900's simply used their
already existing set of figures and adopted them to the tango style (which
evolved then according to competition requirements and fashions). The same
thing happened in international latin (rumba, cha-cha and even samba has
identical figures with a change in style and rythm), with an interesting
quirk: paso doble is more like standard than latin. Having an overview on
these dances, I believe that - in their present form - they are pretty much
using figures from each other, with little connection to the original
sources. This does not mean however, that there is no connection, just the
connection is probably pretty irrelevant.
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
AIM: ecsedya
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Az iWiW-en megtalálhatsz - Find me at iWiW (http://www.iwiw.net/)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:03:47 EDT
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
I'm currently reading Robert Farris Thompson's book "Tango: the Art History
of Love" and it is an eye opener! Yes, there is a lot of black influence in
tango! Highly recommended!
El Bandido de Tango
In a message dated 4/13/2006 02:01:51 Pacific Daylight Time,
romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET writes:
Here are some pictures from early Tango and Candombe or Cayengue/Canyengue.
http://www.milonga.org/Tango_Pictures.html
Cheers,
Bruno
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:22:17 +0100
From: John Ward <johnofbristol@TISCALI.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Argentine and Ballroom Tango
The earliest English-language books dealing with tango are "The Tango and
How to Dance it" by Gladys Beattie Crozier (1913) and "Modern Dancing" by
Vernon and Irene Castle (1914). Both describe a number of figures, but none
resemble the "picture figures" (oversway, right lunge, same foot lunge,
contracheck, etc) of modern ballroom tango; though Crozier mentions "the
Dip, or Sea Bathing, figure" where the knees are flexed for two beats.
P.J.S. Richardson, in "The History of Modern Ballroom Dancing" (1946)
describes the first conference of the Teachers of Ballroom Dancing in May
1920:
Mr Edward Scott then moved the first formal resolution: "That the teachers
present agree to do their very best to stamp out freak steps particularly
dips and steps in which the feet are raised high off the ground and also
side steps and pauses which impede the progress of those who may be
following."
At the second conference in October, steps were standardised for the first
time. Those for the tango were:
Paseo
Corte
Marche Argentine
Carre
Huit
Of the "staccato tango": "As originally introduced by the Argentines about
1933, this crisp and snappy movement was not unattractive but it was then
confined to the legs and feet - the body still preserving its smooth
carriage. In Germany this style became very popular and was soon exaggerated
and in its exaggerated form crept into England." Still no mention of picture
figures; in fact they are not mentioned at all in the book. I would guess
they arose some time after the war. I can confirm that by the time I took up
ballroom in 1961 they were an established part of all dances, not just the
tango.
As has already been pointed out, the same figures are found in all ballroom
dances. The double reverse spin, which looks like a Viennese waltz reverse
turn crammed into one bar, is in fact originally a foxtrot variation
(devised in 1928 by Maxwell Stewart, according to Richardson). The quick
open reverse is a speeded-up quickstep reverse turn found in all dances,
even the tango, for which it is not really suitable.
John Ward
Bristol, UK
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:56:39 -0600
From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy@MILONGAS.COM>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
Hola Naifas y Garabos,
Once again, Godwin's Law is proven correct:
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law )
Damm you Hitler! Not satisfied with working overtime to kill millions of people you took the time to ban Tango!!
Oh, wait, the Nazi party came to power in 1933 -- a good 20+ years after the Tango arrived in Europe... hummm.
Maybe you meant Kaiser Wilhelm who reputedly forbade his officers from dancing tango while in uniform. Not because
he didn't care for Tango per se, mind you, but because the Vienese Waltz, aside from being Germanic,
made the strapping young men in their fancy uniforms and their majestic handlebar moustaches look soooo
gay... I mean good :-)
On a more serious note, I would like to address one of Tom Stermitz' comments.
I do know from my readings and talking with Eduardo Arquimbau and Juan Bruno that many clubs in the
late 1930s and 1940s did not permit cortes and quebradas, as they were considered vulgar.
Cortes y quebradas were banned way before the 30's and 40's. According to a report
by J.A Diego (as quoted in Jose Gobello's, Cronica General del Tango) "on September 9th, 1862,
were arrested at the tenement house of Paraguay 58, Daniel Molina, Feliciano Orsine,
Rufino Olguin and Jose Sandoval as well as the women Catalina Barsolo and Francisca Diaz
for 'bailando y tirando cortes' [dancing with cortes] which is 'prohibited'."
So, what is a "corte" and what is a "quebrada"? why were they banned?
A corte (literally translates to 'a cut') was a specific move that a dancer performed as
a prelude to a quebrada (literally translates to 'a break').
Vicente Rossi describes the corte: "When the dancer's reptilean movements in the correct
path (that was called 'bailando corrido') comes to a sudden turn and stops to show off his
abilties [as a dancer] or to perform a disconcerting quebrada, the famous corte was born
because the interruption literally cut the march [forward progress] of the couple."
Carlos Octavio Bunge wrote in Nuestra America, 1906: "'bailar con corte'" that is
"con puro corte a la quebrada" in other words, to break [bend your partner backwards at her waist]
and balancing on top of her, come into full body contact and move slowly and rythmically
to the music. The contact is so complete and intimate that there was "no light" [no hay luz]
between the dancers."
The society at large was not ready to tolerate such immoral behaviour (the quebrada) and thus
it banned it and the step that led to it (the corte). To wit:
"El tio de la novia, que se ha creido / obligado a fijarse si el baile toma / buen caracter, afirma,
medio ofendido, / que no se admiten cortes, ni aun en broma"
[The bride's uncle who thinks is his duty to make sure that the dance remains respectable
asserts (half miffed) that cortes are not permited, not even as a joke.] Evaristo Carriego's
poem "El Casamiento" [The wedding], 1913.
There are many written accounts of what the (for lack of a better term) "pre-purification" tango
looked like. Here's one from the Revista de Policia [Police Gazzette], March 1904:
"The public dances demand effective police intervention. The tango before, and the tango and the cake-walk now,
threaten to do to our theaters what the Can-Can did to the Paris theaters of yesteryear. Moreover, [the tango] is a
low class spectacle with its contortions and the inpudent gestures of its figures. It's worth noting that several of the
competitions that are born out of the elements that like it, have ended at the tip of the knife."
Getting back to Tom's desire to learn about the early tango. As you know, Tango, the dance,
predates Tango, the music. That is, people started dancing tango steps to existing music (polcas,
mazurcas, tarantelas, etc.) before there was real tango music to dance to. [Therein lies
the ultimate irony to folks (like me) who dislike "alternative music tango". Tango started as
alternative insert-dance-X-here !! i.e., dancing tango steps while listening to non-tango music (sigh)]
In the beginning there were two types of tango with a gray area separating the two.
The "real" tango was obscene, wild, full of lust and bravado. The same adjectives can be
used to describe its practitioners. The written accounts present a picture that by modern
standards would be defined as a date-rape done to music with lots of groping, fondling
and violence. The second type was a more circumspect version of the first. This was the
kind danced at places like Hansen's, at the theaters, or in public. Here the clientele
was better educated, had more wealth and had to behave within the confines that
society has declared as rules of acceptable behavior. The gray area was where these
two worlds met: the brothels, carnaval, private parties, tenement houses and such.
Here's an example of the raw tango from a work written by Ramon Romero in 1886,
Los Amores De Giacumina. I'll do my best to translate but be aware that the original
was written in "cocoliche genoves" (a form of derogatory/stereotypical slang used to make
fun of italian immigrants, something like "Mamma mia! Datza a greata meetzaboll!"
should give you an idea).
"Giacumina took the opportunity to go to the mascarade dance at the Politeama theater.
On the way there she bought a green mask to get in to the theater. As soon as she was
in she was confronted by a group of long-haired compadritos that wanted to dance with
her. Some of them tried to grab her skirt as she passed and she defended herself by hitting them
with her fan. Just so that they would leave her in peace she agreed to dance with one of them.
But this savage compadron was breaking [doing quebradas] so much and would place his
legs in between hers that the poor girl's legs were becoming swollen [...] After they finished
dancing the milonga, the long-haired compadrito took her by the hand into the storeroom
that exists right there at the theater [...] as soon as they were inside they started dancing
a 'cuadrilla cancaniera' [a quadrille with a can-can beat] The compadrito put on a white
kerchief around his neck, adjusted his hat and started to dance. Giacumina wanted to dance
like a little lady but what her partner wanted was to shimmy a lot, lift up her legs high, hit and make
gestures with his hands, squeeze her forcefully and rub his face against her. Giacumina
wanted to leave, but the other compadritos would grope her and lift up her skirts so that the
rest of them could see her fat legs."
The circumspect tango was, one can only hope, devoid of the sexual abuse. Puting aside the
quebradas, the figures done to it were similar. Media lunas, sentadas, corridas, calesitas
and just plain walks were part of the repertoire. One has to remember also that the music was
"happy music", i.e., El Queco, Don Juan, El Entreriano, La C...ara de la l...una, Ataniche, El
Portenito, etc. all demand a faster style of dancing and a bit more "sway" in the steps.
Because tango was being danced to non-tango music as well, some of the steps used in other
dances became part of tango as well. Thus, the canyengue hold presents a strong simile with
the chamame hold. Some orillero steps were borrowed from malambo, vals cruzado got some
bits from the waltz and some from the polca, etc.
So, where did the purified tango come from? Well, that's another posting....
Best regards,
--
ruddy
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:57:41 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Early tango and Ballroom tango
Thanks Rudy,
The quebrada sounds a lot like a lunge from ballroom tango.
On Apr 13, 2006, at 3:56 PM, Ruddy Zelaya wrote:
> Hola Naifas y Garabos,
> ...So, what is a "corte" and what is a "quebrada"? why were they
> banned?
>
> A corte (literally translates to 'a cut') was a specific move that
> a dancer performed as
> a prelude to a quebrada (literally translates to 'a break').
> Vicente Rossi describes the corte: "When the dancer's reptilean
> movements in the correct
> path (that was called 'bailando corrido') comes to a sudden turn
> and stops to show off his
> abilties [as a dancer] or to perform a disconcerting quebrada, the
> famous corte was born
> because the interruption literally cut the march [forward progress]
> of the couple."
>
> Carlos Octavio Bunge wrote in Nuestra America, 1906: "'bailar con
> corte'" that is
> "con puro corte a la quebrada" in other words, to break [bend your
> partner backwards at her waist]
> and balancing on top of her, come into full body contact and move
> slowly and rythmically
> to the music. The contact is so complete and intimate that there
> was "no light" [no hay luz]
> between the dancers."
