6143  Bs As dancers are not so hot

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:47:41 GMT
From: "larrynla@juno.com" <larrynla@juno.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot
To: tango-L@mit.edu

When I went to Buenos Aires one fact I noticed was that, on the
average, tango dancers there were not nearly as good as those in the
places where I had danced in the US.

I thought about this quite a bit after I returned home. Finally I
realized why the difference in quality.

The key is that phrase "on the average." The situation in Argentina is
unique - the tango there is genuinely popular. Elsewhere it is a niche
phenomena, drawing a lot of very dedicated people who work hard and
long to be better. And in recent years that means not just physically
but also better in other ways.

In Bs As there are, as of a few months back, more than a 160 milongas -
ten to twenty times the number of those in other large metro areas in
the rest of the world. Plus the milongas are often much larger.

Thus there is a much larger range of dancers. Those that are good are
very very good, in all ways. Not just in athleticism and body control,
but in feeling and interpreting the music and making the dance
experience special. And there are many who are mediocre, and some who
can barely dance the tango at all. Or who go to dance the non-tango
tandas, usually swing and "tropical" (meaning latin dances except for
salsa, which has its own large fan universe in Bs As).

There are also plenty of people who go but do not dance any dance at
all. Some go just to listen to tango music, which is an important
musical and poetic art form on Argentina, whereas in the rest of the
world for many if not most it is just an excuse to dance. Some go to
socialize. Most likely they live within walking distance of the
milonga. They snack, smoke, and gossip, and watch the crazy foreign
tango fanatics with amusement - if they bother to watch them at all.

In this forum there has been much discussion about the different styles
of tango dancing. Many tango dancers in Argentina specialize in one
style or another, and are contempuous of those who dance a style they
themselves do not dance. That is human nature. But many are
comfortable with more than one style. In the large and varied tango
venue in Bs As most people have long been exposed to all the styles.
It is all tango to them.

There has also been much talk in this forum about the milongueros and
how tango is dying in Argentina as the elders die out. This is utter
crap. It ignores all the younger people who have been taking up tango.
Some do it because of a parent or grandparent or other relative gets
them interested and nurtures their interest. But tango is quite
capable of grabbing people - young and otherwise - who have no family
or friends to help them get interested.

In forums like these it is natural to assume that young people will be
drawn to tango nuevo and ignore or abandon other and earlier styles.
And certainly there is truth to that. But it is a limited truth. Each
tango style has its appeal and advantages. What is certain about young
people is that they are more willing to try, and often learn, several
different styles. And to use a style that suits the situation. When
the milonga is tight, and some of the young-people's milongas are VERY
tight, they will use one of the compact styles. And when the evening
nears its end and the floor becomes loose, they will use one of the
looser styles.

Thus the average quality of tango dancer in Bs As is less than the
quality elsewhere. But that is all to the good. It means we non-
Argentines can go there confident that there is a place even for those
of us who are not especially good.

And there is the chance to see dance, and to take lessons from, the
very best tango dancers on the planet. Look for them on the tight
dance floors. They may be very old, or very young, not even in their
teens yet. Look for the ones who are like fish in water, sliding
easily and quietly through the crowd, not seeming to do anything
special. Then look for the same ones the hour before dawn, when the
floor empties out, and these quiet fish spread their iridescent fins
for all to see.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com


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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:23:48 -0800 (PST)
From: marquerito tjanos <marqcertz@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla@juno.com)
To: tango-l@mit.edu

interesting observation. i just want to add my 10cents worth. lots of young people in BsAs are drawn to tango these days. as larry has observed, though some of them are drawn to tango nuevo music, a lot of them are tangoing to the golden oldies. from my observation in Practica X and La Viruta, which have a huge number (more than 90% i would say) of young people, they enjoy the golden age tango very much. the ways they dance their tango are very varied too. some open embrace, some close embrace, some milonguero style. but if you look at the large successful schools, e.g. Academia at El Beso, Escuela at Galeria Pacifico,?most of the teachers are just teaching good solid tango, good technique, good postures etc.
and aurora lubiz is a great teacher!
M
?






Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:40:59 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot
(larrynla@juno.com)
To: tango-l@mit.edu

It doesn't really matter what people are
teaching. It is much more important what people
are learning. If the teacher is teaching really
good stuff, but the people are trapped in their
bodies and can't make it move (meaning they are
not controlling their bodies but their bodies are
controlling them), nothing will help other than
some coordination training away from tango. Soccer might be good.

What makes someone a good dancer? The right
attitude! Foreigners don't have it. (Sorry,
folks...) Yup, black and white
generalization. Exceptions are not important for
this discussion.The simplre reason that the
foreigners don't have the right attitude (in
their own land or in BsAs) is that they have
different expectations of their tango experience
than the Argentines do. That's why many
Argentine dancers that don't have as a refined
technique as some foregners do, are much better dancers.

Fourteen years ago, tango nuevo was called
nuevo. So what could be another alternative name
for "tango nuevo" that is not "nuevo"
anymore? When does the term "nuevo" expire? It
is not quite old yet, or antique, just a little
worn :) Maybe now, after so many years, it
should be called "tango nuevo polvoriento". That
would free up the term "tango nuevo" for something really new.

Nina

At 10:23 PM 11/6/2008, marquerito tjanos wrote:

>interesting observation. i just want to add my
>10cents worth. lots of young people in BsAs are
>drawn to tango these days. as larry has
>observed, though some of them are drawn to tango
>nuevo music, a lot of them are tangoing to the
>golden oldies. from my observation in Practica X
>and La Viruta, which have a huge number (more
>than 90% i would say) of young people, they
>enjoy the golden age tango very much. the ways
>they dance their tango are very varied too. some
>open embrace, some close embrace, some
>milonguero style. but if you look at the large
>successful schools, e.g. Academia at El Beso,
>Escuela at Galeria Pacifico,? most of the
>teachers are just teaching good solid tango,
>good technique, good postures etc. and aurora
>lubiz is a great teacher! M ? Find your
>perfect match today at the new Yahoo!7 Dating.
>Get Started







Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 15:07:48 +0800
From: "Clif Davis" <clif@clifdavis.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot
(larrynla@juno.com)
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I
become nauseated.
Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish.

Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the
dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant
for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's
not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar
dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars.

The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style.
None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their style
as possible. Not just the people in some far away place.

Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of
bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance
with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves.

Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as
anyone in Argentina.

Clif, from China.







Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 07:39:18 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot
(larrynla@juno.com)
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Clif,

Nausea is a good thing. It tells you that there might be something
to look at inside yourself that might need your attention. Perhaps
the envy of the divine?:)

I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list. They
pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and
can't accept their own inferiority. Or maybe they do accept it and
know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about
it. It is always very funny to observe foreigners claim "We are as
good as Argentines, or even better!". At what? Moves? Yes, of
course! Feeling? No. Evidence? Either any milonga outside of the
BsAs or any milonga in BsAs that many foreigners attend is the
evidence. The quality of these milongas is distinctly different
from milongas where only Argentines are present, without
exceptions. The quality of dance is difference also.

Argentines, as arrogant as they are nationally, are able to accept
their inferiorities. I have heard dancers in BsAs say that they will
never be as good as dancing swing as the Americans are.

BTW, accepting that your tango is inferior to Argentine dancers'
should not prevent you from enjoying it, wherever you are. :)

Best,

Nina


At 12:07 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:

>I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I
>become nauseated.
>Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish.
>
>Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the
>dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant
>for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's
>not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar
>dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars.
>
>The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style.
>None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their style
>as possible. Not just the people in some far away place.
>
>Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of
>bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance
>with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves.
>
>Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as
>anyone in Argentina.
>
>Clif, from China.
>
>






Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 23:24:49 +0800
From: "Clif Davis" <clif@clifdavis.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot
(larrynla@juno.com)
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Nina, it is nice to see that your shrink license is working well from afar.
Your ability to judge a persons thoughts and feelings from a few lines is
amazing. Not to mention your massive ego that just can't stand being looked
at. I am sure you are a fine dancer. Maybe even a great dancer. But is it
because of the blood in your veins or the time you put on the floor?
Remember, Argentine blood is messed up as American blood. It isn't pure, so
which is the influencing part. Is it German? Is it from the plains? Is it
from the blacks and other slaves that were brought in? Which is the true
Argentine blood that makes you so special? I mean if you are saying that
"only Argentines" can truly dance tango, then let's have some science to
back it up. Or is it really just your personal bias and massive ego that is
putting everyone else down.

Look in the mirror Nina, post some video if you haven't already, let's see
your true Argentine magic. And which of the 9 or 10 "true" tangos is your
specialty. Have you created your own? Oh wait, you are a follower, doesn't
that mean you are only as good as the person leading you? Or, are you really
special and back lead?

Just curious, I mean, since YOU know more than anyone about the abilities of
dancers and their ability, please dear god Nina, bestow upon us your wisdom
and oh by the way, when is your book coming out? Surely someone as sage as
you has a book in the offing.

Me, I am just a silly American living in China and enjoying it. You know,
they even think I can dance. They even want to dance with me, which I am
sure a snob like would never want to do. I may not be perfect enough.

Have a great day. I hope you don't block out the sun.

Clif

-----Original Message-----



Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:39 PM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla@juno.com)

Clif,

Nausea is a good thing. It tells you that there might be something
to look at inside yourself that might need your attention. Perhaps
the envy of the divine?:)

I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list. They
pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and
can't accept their own inferiority. Or maybe they do accept it and
know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about
it. It is always very funny to observe foreigners claim "We are as
good as Argentines, or even better!". At what? Moves? Yes, of
course! Feeling? No. Evidence? Either any milonga outside of the
BsAs or any milonga in BsAs that many foreigners attend is the
evidence. The quality of these milongas is distinctly different
from milongas where only Argentines are present, without
exceptions. The quality of dance is difference also.

Argentines, as arrogant as they are nationally, are able to accept
their inferiorities. I have heard dancers in BsAs say that they will
never be as good as dancing swing as the Americans are.

BTW, accepting that your tango is inferior to Argentine dancers'
should not prevent you from enjoying it, wherever you are. :)

Best,

Nina


At 12:07 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:

>I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I
>become nauseated.
>Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish.
>
>Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the
>dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant
>for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's
>not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar
>dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars.
>
>The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style.
>None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their

style

>as possible. Not just the people in some far away place.
>
>Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of
>bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance
>with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves.
>
>Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as
>anyone in Argentina.
>
>Clif, from China.
>
>







Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:51:25 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot
(larrynla@juno.com)
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Cliff, you are right!

Best,

Nina


At 08:24 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:

>Nina, it is nice to see that your shrink license is working well from afar.
>Your ability to judge a persons thoughts and feelings from a few lines is
>amazing. Not to mention your massive ego that just can't stand being looked
>at. I am sure you are a fine dancer. Maybe even a great dancer. But is it
>because of the blood in your veins or the time you put on the floor?
>Remember, Argentine blood is messed up as American blood. It isn't pure, so
>which is the influencing part. Is it German? Is it from the plains? Is it
>from the blacks and other slaves that were brought in? Which is the true
>Argentine blood that makes you so special? I mean if you are saying that
>"only Argentines" can truly dance tango, then let's have some science to
>back it up. Or is it really just your personal bias and massive ego that is
>putting everyone else down.
>
>Look in the mirror Nina, post some video if you haven't already, let's see
>your true Argentine magic. And which of the 9 or 10 "true" tangos is your
>specialty. Have you created your own? Oh wait, you are a follower, doesn't
>that mean you are only as good as the person leading you? Or, are you really
>special and back lead?
>
>Just curious, I mean, since YOU know more than anyone about the abilities of
>dancers and their ability, please dear god Nina, bestow upon us your wisdom
>and oh by the way, when is your book coming out? Surely someone as sage as
>you has a book in the offing.
>
>Me, I am just a silly American living in China and enjoying it. You know,
>they even think I can dance. They even want to dance with me, which I am
>sure a snob like would never want to do. I may not be perfect enough.
>
>Have a great day. I hope you don't block out the sun.
>
>Clif
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
>Nina Pesochinsky
>Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:39 PM
>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla@juno.com)
>
>Clif,
>
>Nausea is a good thing. It tells you that there might be something
>to look at inside yourself that might need your attention. Perhaps
>the envy of the divine?:)
>
>I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list. They
>pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and
>can't accept their own inferiority. Or maybe they do accept it and
>know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about
>it. It is always very funny to observe foreigners claim "We are as
>good as Argentines, or even better!". At what? Moves? Yes, of
>course! Feeling? No. Evidence? Either any milonga outside of the
>BsAs or any milonga in BsAs that many foreigners attend is the
>evidence. The quality of these milongas is distinctly different
>from milongas where only Argentines are present, without
>exceptions. The quality of dance is difference also.
>
>Argentines, as arrogant as they are nationally, are able to accept
>their inferiorities. I have heard dancers in BsAs say that they will
>never be as good as dancing swing as the Americans are.
>
>BTW, accepting that your tango is inferior to Argentine dancers'
>should not prevent you from enjoying it, wherever you are. :)
>
>Best,
>
>Nina
>
>
>At 12:07 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:
> >I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I
> >become nauseated.
> >Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish.
> >
> >Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the
> >dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant
> >for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's
> >not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar
> >dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars.
> >
> >The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style.
> >None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their
>style
> >as possible. Not just the people in some far away place.
> >
> >Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of
> >bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance
> >with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves.
> >
> >Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as
> >anyone in Argentina.
> >
> >Clif, from China.
> >
> >
>
>






Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 07:09:00 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot
(larrynla@juno.com)
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Do trolls dance?

Only if they are Argentinean I guess.


>I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list. They
>pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and
>can't accept their own inferiority. Or maybe they do accept it and
>know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about
>it.







Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 08:41:43 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <antonst@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot
<00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF788@stancosbs1.stanco.local>

In my opinion there are many folks who dance tango that really don't
know the difference between having sex and making love. And if they
don't, they really don't understand tango. And anyone that thinks that
I'm really talking about intercourse, don't understand either.
Every day I see people on the floor treating tango as just an activity,
whereas I believe tango is an emotional experience. In my opinion it's
not about steps or routines or impeccable technique, it's about the
brief union of two people. I feel sorry for tango dancers that can't
experience it. So much of the tango codec in Buenos Aires contributes to
it. We ignore it at our loss.

Anton









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