6244  chicho - sorry

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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:06:10 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?vābEPOvOp9c&feature=PlayList&pd2FCECA51E2D428&playnext=1&index=6



Chicho - Nuevo Tango - Open embrace



Sergio

See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life.
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:00:27 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>

Sergio Vandekier wrote:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?vābEPOvOp9c&feature=PlayList&pd2FCECA51E2D428&playnext=1&index=6
> Chicho - Nuevo Tango - Open embrace

He's really leading with his arms in this. There's hardly any chest
connection. It really is a quite different dance, isn't it?

Myk
in Canberra





Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:09:55 +1100
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: tango-L@mit.edu
<cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>

Myk

Chicho is definitely NOT using his arms in this clip. It is often
misconstrued when people use arms and when they don't. Keeping ones
frame is different to using the arms independent of the frame which
would then be 'using the arms'.

Whilst visually different and feeling different, I can't stress this
enough, but the leading is the same. Very hard for most salon/close
embrace dancers to understand as they rarely get enough time/skill to
lead correctly when open. Like anything, it takes practice.

Watch Chicho when he is doing close embrace or salon as well which he
regularly performs. Note that the hand in both close/salon and then
in open stays roughly the same distance in front and to the side,
hence, NOT pushing or pulling.

:-)
Damian

2009/2/10 Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>

>
> Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vābEPOvOp9c&feature=PlayList&pd2FCECA51E2D428&playnext=1&index=6
> > Chicho - Nuevo Tango - Open embrace
>
> He's really leading with his arms in this. There's hardly any chest
> connection. It really is a quite different dance, isn't it?
>
> Myk
> in Canberra





Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:44:23 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Noughts wrote:

> Myk
>
> Chicho is definitely NOT using his arms in this clip. It is often
> misconstrued when people use arms and when they don't. Keeping ones
> frame is different to using the arms independent of the frame which
> would then be 'using the arms'.
>

The frame changes shape far more radically in Chicho's 'nuevo' dancing
than in traditional tango. There are times when the lady is more beside
him than in front of him. I'm not saying that it's bad or evil, just
that it is a quite different style of dance. Wherever you fall in the
debate about whether nuevo dancing belongs in the same milongas as
traditional dancing, you have to agree that they are different styles.

> Whilst visually different and feeling different, I can't stress this
> enough, but the leading is the same. Very hard for most salon/close
> embrace dancers to understand as they rarely get enough time/skill to
> lead correctly when open. Like anything, it takes practice.
>

Sorry, Damian, but I disagree. The leading is not "the same". Chicho is
leading with his frame (using the arms to adjust the shape of the
frame), more like ballroom dancing. Traditional tango leads from the
chest, and your chest is always facing your partner. That's a different
way of leading, and dancing. Chicho abandons the chest connection in
order to make a more visually interesting and varied dance.

> Watch Chicho when he is doing close embrace or salon as well which he
> regularly performs. Note that the hand in both close/salon and then
> in open stays roughly the same distance in front and to the side,
> hence, NOT pushing or pulling.

Did I say pushing or pulling? No. I said "using". When the person you're
dancing with is beside your chest, then in front of your chest, then
beside your chest again, you are not leading with your chest, you are
leading with your arms.

Myk,
in Canberra





Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:44:23 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Noughts wrote:

> Myk
>
> Chicho is definitely NOT using his arms in this clip. It is often
> misconstrued when people use arms and when they don't. Keeping ones
> frame is different to using the arms independent of the frame which
> would then be 'using the arms'.
>

The frame changes shape far more radically in Chicho's 'nuevo' dancing
than in traditional tango. There are times when the lady is more beside
him than in front of him. I'm not saying that it's bad or evil, just
that it is a quite different style of dance. Wherever you fall in the
debate about whether nuevo dancing belongs in the same milongas as
traditional dancing, you have to agree that they are different styles.

> Whilst visually different and feeling different, I can't stress this
> enough, but the leading is the same. Very hard for most salon/close
> embrace dancers to understand as they rarely get enough time/skill to
> lead correctly when open. Like anything, it takes practice.
>

Sorry, Damian, but I disagree. The leading is not "the same". Chicho is
leading with his frame (using the arms to adjust the shape of the
frame), more like ballroom dancing. Traditional tango leads from the
chest, and your chest is always facing your partner. That's a different
way of leading, and dancing. Chicho abandons the chest connection in
order to make a more visually interesting and varied dance.

> Watch Chicho when he is doing close embrace or salon as well which he
> regularly performs. Note that the hand in both close/salon and then
> in open stays roughly the same distance in front and to the side,
> hence, NOT pushing or pulling.

Did I say pushing or pulling? No. I said "using". When the person you're
dancing with is beside your chest, then in front of your chest, then
beside your chest again, you are not leading with your chest, you are
leading with your arms.

Myk,
in Canberra





Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:29:15 +1100
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>

Myk

This is my point. The lead IS the same. Style and emphasis are
different. The same principle and techniques are employed. In actual
fact, the better the lead (Chicho, Veron, Naviera etc) the less you
would even notice. The lead is SOLELY through the chest. Maintaining
the frame is NOT pushing or pulling, relaxing the frame and allowing
your arms to move is NOT pushing or pulling (what you see in these
videos).

Again, as I stated before - using the arms as you say automatically
means that a person is pushing, or pulling, if you don't understand
this, then there is not much I can say or do other than demonstrate it
with you - it is something you feel, not something you observe. As
you stated, in a lot of his dancing, he has no chest connection.. does
that automatically mean no chest lead? Answer - no. Simple. Cecilia
Gonzalez and other great dancers for years have showed how to maintain
a connection without contact. If you think that, then you are truly
quite naive in the way of open dancing and nuevo and only expousing
one perspective quite possibly. An excellent lead in open uses
nothing but chest. This you possibly have yet to experience.

In contrast, then you would say that all 'Salon/Close' embrace dancers
only use chest - and almost every woman would tell you that the
majority of 'Salon/Close' embrace dancers also use their arms, hands,
wrists, forearms and fingers to change a lead, change direction and or
execute some other lead. Is it correct? Is it wrong? Well, that is
an entire debate in itself. Watch most "milonguero's" (definition,
self taught dancer) and they have their own style, but really, that
does not automatically make them a good dancer. Most are too strong
in the frame, squeeze the life out of a woman or man (women do it too
unfortunately).

So, at the end of the day, closed, open, salon, canjengue, candombe,
nuevo, stage... any other dance you like - lead correctly, uses
basically chest only. The technique is the same. Having danced and
competed internationally in many different dances, ballroom included -
this is quite synonymous.

Again, your perogative to disagree - hope that one day you experience
a good dancer in all the styles, then maybe you will understand. Or,
you and any other person could just decide that no, my teachers, me,
other teachers that teach this and almost any good dancer has no idea
and you may never actually explore or learn it further.

At no point have I even entered into a debate about Nuevo in a
Traditional milonga - both co-exist at basically every milonga in BA -
even the most traditional. That is another debate entirely.

> The frame changes shape far more radically in Chicho's 'nuevo' dancing
> than in traditional tango. There are times when the lady is more beside
> him than in front of him. I'm not saying that it's bad or evil, just
> that it is a quite different style of dance. Wherever you fall in the
> debate about whether nuevo dancing belongs in the same milongas as
> traditional dancing, you have to agree that they are different styles.
>
> Sorry, Damian, but I disagree. The leading is not "the same". Chicho is
> leading with his frame (using the arms to adjust the shape of the
> frame), more like ballroom dancing. Traditional tango leads from the
> chest, and your chest is always facing your partner. That's a different
> way of leading, and dancing. Chicho abandons the chest connection in
> order to make a more visually interesting and varied dance.
>
> Did I say pushing or pulling? No. I said "using". When the person you're
> dancing with is beside your chest, then in front of your chest, then
> beside your chest again, you are not leading with your chest, you are
> leading with your arms.
>





Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:11:28 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: "Noughts" <damian.thompson@gmail.com>, "tango-l" <tango-l@mit.edu>

No it is not. Not in salsa where there is no connection but lots of hand
leading. Not Latin ballroom. Yes I have/am doing both. Frankly I thought
the dancing somewhat staged in the video.



From: "Noughts" <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:29 PM
To: "tango-l" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry


>
> So, at the end of the day, closed, open, salon, canjengue, candombe,
> nuevo, stage... any other dance you like - lead correctly, uses
> basically chest only. The technique is the same. Having danced and
> competed internationally in many different dances, ballroom included -
> this is quite synonymous.
>







Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:29:18 +1100
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: tango-l <tango-L@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0902092329n6f638cb1v5aee48991a2c97a8@mail.gmail.com>

With Chicho's permission, I am posting this part of our conversation.

Damian

chicho, would you say you lead with your arms? Esp when you danced with Eugenia?

a great debate is raging!

on this video :-):-) LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?vābEPOvOp9c&feature=PlayList&pd2FCECA51E2D428&playnext=1&index=6
6:23pmMariano

nice video this...long time ago...Thanks.
6:24pmDamian

si, agree, but I am fighting saying that there is no arm leading, you
are not pushing or pulling, it's all lead and freestyle.. yes?

por favor, si/no?

???
6:24pmMariano

never arms

is the conection
6:24pmDamian

gracias - may I quote you for this?
6:24pmMariano

in the soul in the hearts


Any further questions for the man that not only lead it, but danced
it? One of our greatest tango dancers ever?

Damian


Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you
will become a better dancer than you already are...





Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:45:56 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: "Noughts" <damian.thompson@gmail.com>, "tango-l" <tango-L@mit.edu>


> Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
> are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you

Mate it is Vince. Even mum would never dare call me Vincent.

But they do not teach leading with the chest. And yes I have studied under
one of the great ballroom teachers. Nor has anyone from any of the schools
I have done salsa at have taught chest leads.

And I was only disagreeing with you on salsa/ballroom only. Maybe you had
unique teachers before you began tango?

> will become a better dancer than you already are...

Oh was that a compliment? I wonder from where.......

See you soon.......




From: "Noughts" <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:29 PM
To: "tango-l" <tango-L@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry

>







Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:34:57 +1100
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0902100434x13e41a9br15f405a14343e667@mail.gmail.com>

Well, Vince... Vincenzo, Vincent, Vinnie.. Vinny...

Take if personally if you must and if you must take the personal line,
then really, please don't be familiar with me and call me 'mate'.

Every ballroom studio teacher worth their salt will teach the lead
coming from their chest. They phrase it differently like - "keep that
frame rigid, move it all together" or some other variant I'm sure you
will come up with. At the end of the day, the turn always, always
begins with the core muscles. Guess what, it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to
begin any turn or rotation without that - physiologically impossible.
That 'Vince' is basic anatomy and physiology 101.

So, your Salsa Cross body lead, you don't move your chest hey? Wow,
that is impressive, love to see that. Basic turns, you don't move
your chest, not even a slight rotation to lift your arm...
Impressive... Have to see that!


2009/2/10 Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com>:

>
>> Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
>> are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you
>
> Mate it is Vince. Even mum would never dare call me Vincent.
>
> Oh was that a compliment? I wonder from where.......

Not any more, you have made it perfectly clear where you come from and
it is quite a tight fit in there....

Now this may be an inflammatory post for you and I may be banned....
but now, I'm not losing out.... you will.

See me soon? Why, you wanna ask me out on a date? Sorry. Not that
way inclined 'Vinnie'.... You wanna beat me up in the carpark? Ok,
good luck, really, you will need lot's of friends that day.

Bye Tango-l.





Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:39:02 +1100
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: tango-l <tango-L@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0902100439g7b12b56dje524ab34ce76a1a0@mail.gmail.com>

Interestingly enough.... Many people warned me not to bother with this
forum, due to the very very theoretical armchair experts.

I would have to concur now....

Get out and dance people.

I am now unsubscribed.

2009/2/10 Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>:

> Well, Vince... Vincenzo, Vincent, Vinnie.. Vinny...
>
> Take if personally if you must and if you must take the personal line,
> then really, please don't be familiar with me and call me 'mate'.
>
> Every ballroom studio teacher worth their salt will teach the lead
> coming from their chest. They phrase it differently like - "keep that
> frame rigid, move it all together" or some other variant I'm sure you
> will come up with. At the end of the day, the turn always, always
> begins with the core muscles. Guess what, it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to
> begin any turn or rotation without that - physiologically impossible.
> That 'Vince' is basic anatomy and physiology 101.
>
> So, your Salsa Cross body lead, you don't move your chest hey? Wow,
> that is impressive, love to see that. Basic turns, you don't move
> your chest, not even a slight rotation to lift your arm...
> Impressive... Have to see that!
>
>
> 2009/2/10 Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com>:
>>
>>> Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
>>> are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you
>>
>> Mate it is Vince. Even mum would never dare call me Vincent.
>>
>> Oh was that a compliment? I wonder from where.......
>
> Not any more, you have made it perfectly clear where you come from and
> it is quite a tight fit in there....
>
> Now this may be an inflammatory post for you and I may be banned....
> but now, I'm not losing out.... you will.
>
> See me soon? Why, you wanna ask me out on a date? Sorry. Not that
> way inclined 'Vinnie'.... You wanna beat me up in the carpark? Ok,
> good luck, really, you will need lot's of friends that day.
>
> Bye Tango-l.
>





Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:49:58 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Noughts wrote:

> As
> you stated, in a lot of his dancing, he has no chest connection.. does
> that automatically mean no chest lead? Answer - no. Simple. Cecilia
> Gonzalez and other great dancers for years have showed how to maintain
> a connection without contact. If you think that, then you are truly
> quite naive in the way of open dancing and nuevo and only expousing
> one perspective quite possibly. An excellent lead in open uses
> nothing but chest. This you possibly have yet to experience.

It's a different type of connection, and gives the dance a different
look. Part of what makes traditional tango such an emotive dance is the
fact that the partners are always facing each other, chest to chest,
while their legs are wandering in different directions. There's
something about that visible connection that helps give tango its
mystique. Nuevo discards this particular element of the dance. (And not
all traditional tango dancers manage to keep it in place, either)

> In contrast, then you would say that all 'Salon/Close' embrace dancers
> only use chest - and almost every woman would tell you that the
> majority of 'Salon/Close' embrace dancers also use their arms, hands,
> wrists, forearms and fingers to change a lead, change direction and or
> execute some other lead. Is it correct? Is it wrong? Well, that is
> an entire debate in itself. Watch most "milonguero's" (definition,
> self taught dancer) and they have their own style, but really, that
> does not automatically make them a good dancer. Most are too strong
> in the frame, squeeze the life out of a woman or man (women do it too
> unfortunately).

Indeed. If all the leading came from the chest, there would be no need
for arms, other than embracing. But then, isn't that something we do in
practice at times? Drop the arms and lead purely with the chest? Which
would indicate that there is a definite goal or intention to lead from
the chest. But there is no way that Chicho could lead many of those
moves without his arms. He'd have to change to a salon style, keeping
his partner in front of his chest.

> So, at the end of the day, closed, open, salon, canjengue, candombe,
> nuevo, stage... any other dance you like - lead correctly, uses
> basically chest only. The technique is the same. Having danced and
> competed internationally in many different dances, ballroom included -
> this is quite synonymous.

No, sorry, I disagree. The chest is where the motion starts, but the
arms modify and transmit the motion. In some dances, they modify it more
than others. Nuevo dancing is closer to the ballroom level of arm input
than the traditional tango level.

I guess it's partially a difference in definitions. The term "leading
from the chest" is not something that you can look up in a dictionary
and get a precise definition of. From one perspective, you can say that
all partner dances are lead "from the chest", since that is the root of
all body motion. But to say that removes the purpose of the distinction
between arm leading and chest leading. At one end of the spectrum are
dances like ceroc and lindy hop, where it's almost all adjustment of
arms and hands that define the lead. At the other end, in my experience,
is milonguero style, with a a physical chest to chest connection that
hardly ever breaks, and the arms are almost superfluous.

Yes, the chest is still an important part of nuevo, but the arms play a
much greater role than they do in traditional tango. And for me, this
seems to be almost the defining difference between the styles. Every
other difference between the two styles I have seen posited has been
shot down by the regulars on this list.

> At no point have I even entered into a debate about Nuevo in a
> Traditional milonga - both co-exist at basically every milonga in BA -
> even the most traditional. That is another debate entirely.

I think we're pretty much in agreement there, though we probably have
different opinions on the exact mix of music. That particular phrase was
more aimed towards the rest of the list than yourself.

Myk
in Canberra





Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:09:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>

I've been trying to stay away from Ballroom discussions but, c'mon Damian!

I've studied Ballroom in the UK with the world's greatest dancers and teachers,
including my personal?favourite - John Wood. NOT ONE EVER mentioned a
chest lead.

If they used another term that you're interpreting as a 'chest lead' and it works
for you - fine. But please don't say ... "Every ballroom studio teacher worth their
salt will teach the lead coming from their chest" because it just isn't true.

Jack



> From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
>
> Every ballroom studio teacher worth their salt will teach the lead
> coming from their chest..? They phrase it differently like - "keep that
> frame rigid, move it all together" or some other variant I'm sure you
> will come up with.?










Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:21:06 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
To: "Noughts" <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>

Damian of Jeditango your reputation proceeds you ever since I saw you in
action at BASH II You really don't know who I am do you? Maybe you should
make some enquiries in Canberra before you mouth off further. You really do
no favours for yourself as a potential teacher to the tango community who
read this post.


To think that I was wanting get tips from you when I move to Melbourne this
Sunday.

Cheers

>
> Not any more, you have made it perfectly clear where you come from and
> it is quite a tight fit in there....
>
> Now this may be an inflammatory post for you and I may be banned....
> but now, I'm not losing out.... you will.
>
> See me soon? Why, you wanna ask me out on a date? Sorry. Not that
> way inclined 'Vinnie'.... You wanna beat me up in the carpark? Ok,
> good luck, really, you will need lot's of friends that day.
>
> Bye Tango-l.
>





Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:33:15 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: chicho - sorry
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Dear Sir/Madam,

In responding to this to what appears to be an insult, to my sexuality etc,
I did not trim my post.

I do apologize sincerely. Just lost it there for a while.

Vince



From: "Noughts" <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:34 PM
To: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Cc: "tango-l" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry

> Well, Vince... Vincenzo, Vincent, Vinnie.. Vinny...
>
> Take if personally if you must and if you must take the personal line,
> then really, please don't be familiar with me and call me 'mate'.
>
> Every ballroom studio teacher worth their salt will teach the lead
> coming from their chest. They phrase it differently like - "keep that
> frame rigid, move it all together" or some other variant I'm sure you
> will come up with. At the end of the day, the turn always, always
> begins with the core muscles. Guess what, it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to
> begin any turn or rotation without that - physiologically impossible.
> That 'Vince' is basic anatomy and physiology 101.
>
> So, your Salsa Cross body lead, you don't move your chest hey? Wow,
> that is impressive, love to see that. Basic turns, you don't move
> your chest, not even a slight rotation to lift your arm...
> Impressive... Have to see that!
>
>
> 2009/2/10 Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com>:
>>
>>> Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
>>> are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you
>>
>> Mate it is Vince. Even mum would never dare call me Vincent.
>>
>> Oh was that a compliment? I wonder from where.......
>
> Not any more, you have made it perfectly clear where you come from and
> it is quite a tight fit in there....
>
> Now this may be an inflammatory post for you and I may be banned....
> but now, I'm not losing out.... you will.
>
> See me soon? Why, you wanna ask me out on a date? Sorry. Not that
> way inclined 'Vinnie'.... You wanna beat me up in the carpark? Ok,
> good luck, really, you will need lot's of friends that day.
>
> Bye Tango-l.
>



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