358 Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:33:24 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
Some have noticed a divergence between the way Argentine tango is danced in
many North American cities and the way it is danced in Argentina. Some
have attributed the difference to the prevalence of stage dancers teaching
in the United States and Canada, but I think the difference is as much
cultural as it is the result of who is teaching.
In most North America cities, tango is typically danced in an embrace that
is more open than the body-on-body embrace used in Argentina. Even those
Argentines dancing salon tango typically use a closer embrace than most
North American tango dancers would find socially comfortable. Americans
and Canadians are typically more reserved people than Argentines, and the
more distant embrace used in many North American cities reflects proper
behavior in dancing with strangers, casual acquaintances and even
significant others.
The difference in the embrace greatly changes the feeling of and
possibilites for the dance. It changes which steps have meaning and which
steps do not. In a close embrace, little rhythmic wiggles and other subtle
moves that are shared between partners are supreme. In contrast, big
movements have no meaning and are phyiscally challenging.
As the embrace opens up, the subtle movements shared between partners lose
meaning and big movements become more easily accomplished. Consequently,
it becomes more attractive to take on more theatrical aspects of tango
dancing, and a blended salon/fantasia style has emerged. Those who dance
in stage shows find a ready-made market for teaching such a style of dance,
which is then danced socially in many North American cities. The process
becomes self-perpetuating.
In the National Geographic special on tango that aired a number of years
ago, it was speculated that the social forms of tango would be supplanted
by the more theatrical forms. I think that has proven wrong.... Theater
cannot really supplant social dancing where participation is valued over
watching. As tango has enjoyed a resurgence in Buenos Aires over the past
decade, it continues to be danced in a close embrace because that better
expresses Argentine culture. In many North American cities, a somewhat
different style with a more open embrace and more theatrical movements has
dominated social dancing because that better expresses the prevalent
culture in those cities.
For many American and Canadian tango dancers, making the transition from
open-embrace, theatrically flavored dancing to one that more closely
resembles the Argentine close-embrace style of dancing may require more of
a cultural transition than anything else.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Stephen Brown
Tango Argention de Tejas
http://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:22:09 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
>
> For many American and Canadian tango dancers, making the transition from
> open-embrace, theatrically flavored dancing to one that more closely
> resembles the Argentine close-embrace style of dancing may require more of
> a cultural transition than anything else.
>
At the risk of endlessly repeating myself, I'd like to point out, that
whether you dance in close embrace is not just a question of sexual mores
and how comfortable you feel with a partner. Dancing as close the Argentines
(and many other people) do, requires a certain posture and balance, and even
a certain type of chest (asthenically flat or sunken won't do in the man,
nor a chest-back-shoulders-forward type of body) that enable the woman to
enter the diagonal without jeopardizing the balance of the couple, and
without having to lean on the man's shoulders. This kind of embrace needs
considerably more training than dancing straight upright at a distance,
where you pretty much just do a synchronized walk, rather than attempting to
move as "one body with four legs".
Astrid
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 00:46:45 -0900
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
Steve writes:
{".........The difference in the embrace greatly changes the feeling of and
possibilites for the dance. It changes which steps have meaning and which
steps do not. In a close embrace, little rhythmic wiggles and other subtle
moves that are shared between partners are supreme. In contrast, big
movements have no meaning and are phyiscally challenging.
As the embrace opens up, the subtle movements shared between partners lose
meaning and big movements become more easily accomplished........."}
I must agree that as the embrace changes, the feeling of the dance changes,
but not *necessarily* so for the size or relative meaning of the movements.
For instance, in close embrace, even apilado, I don't find myself limited to
smaller steps, and certainly, the larger movements don't lose meaning. I
agree that the small rhythmic movements are really golden in apilado, but if
the music is pulsing thickly like Di Sarli's later instrumentals or a really
compelling burst of Pugliese sounds forth, a large movement often results,
especially if the dancers are allowing themselves to be "pulled along" by
the music (and not getting stuck in choreographies). I don't have any
trouble taking large movements if the space allows and the music calls for
it - a large step in close embrace can really be meaningful. I don't
consider them physically challenging either - it just takes proper
technique, as a large step does in open embrace. The fact is, I'm one who
thinks a large dynamic step in parallel feet, open embrace, is pretty
technique-intensive - it's far from automatic.
In the open embrace, I find the subtle movements to be VERY meaningful -
they symbolize a very connected partnership. I once followed a friend of
mine in a lesson, dancing very open embrace, and was amazed at how small of
a movement, in this case literally just a twitch of his muscles, could
translate into precise, musical movement of my feet. I don't believe that
open embrace necessarily means that the connection is less able to transmit
subtle details of the dance. However, the feeling and (as Astrid rightly
mentions) the technique is very different.
Open embrace does not necessarily result in so-called "theatrics". To me,
theatrics or disruptive movement on the social dance floor is an attitude,
not a style of dance. It is no problem to dance open embrace in very tight
quarters if you really know what you're doing and aren't stuck in
choreographies - there are several people I know who are good at open
embrace and understand the importance of floorcraft - I love having them on
the floor. It's all attitude and courtesy, and in my view, this very
fundamental human characteristic transcends styles.
Cheers to everyone, let's all have a GREAT new year!
Dan
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:53:57 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
Astrid wrote:
>I'd like to point out, that whether you dance in close embrace
>is not just a question of sexual mores and how comfortable you
>feel with a partner. Dancing as close the Argentines (and many
>other people) do, requires a certain posture and balance, and even
>a certain type of chest.
Dan Boccia added:
>I must agree that as the embrace changes, the feeling of the dance
>changes, but not *necessarily* so for the size or relative meaning
>of the movements.
I agree with these comments, and a couple of private comments that
suggested that I may have overgeneralized about the styles of dance. What
I have observed is a filtering process in which people select their
preferred style of tango dancing...
The prevalence of a particular style in a city is a combination of
historical accident and the local tastes.... A style that does not appeal
to local tastes cannot be sustained because it does not address the basic
reasons for dancing.... Those who are more interested in looking cool and
exotic will be attracted to the more theatrical styles... Those who like
romance and being close will gravitate to the closer, less showy styles....
I think much of the rest follows.
One might argue, of course, that cities in which tango is dominated by the
theatrical styles will tend to discourage participation by those who like
romance and being close. And that cities in which tango is dominated by
the closer, less showy styles will tend to discourage those who like
looking cool and exotic... While I think this has an element of truth,
visiting instructors and locals who change styles provide ample
opportunities for other styles to emerge.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
http://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 00:10:54 -0800
From: Lisa Dollar <ldollar@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
Thanks Steve & Astrid for discussion of close embrace.
In my experience, while preference/culture determines who even attempts
close embrace, the bottom line is it isn't possible w/o the yummy connection
that comes of good body fit, similar height, projected chests, etc.
I've only been dancing Tango a year & a half & though I found moving in
close embrace physically awkward in the beginning, the first time I
experienced the effortless melding that happens in a good connection, there
was no going back. Showy steps can't hold a candle to the sensation of
merging with one's partner. Gone --for the most part-- are the problems of
being thrown off-balance by a man leading w/his arms or of not taking me
with him when he moves. In their place, the trust, the intimate sense of
familiarity even w/strangers, the whole-body sigh that I feel in his arms is
delicious. Heavenly even.
I wish it were possible with more partners. But because it's not, I dance
less. And enjoy way more.
Lisa
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 12:02:32 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
I love doing, say, 1/3 to 1/2 (of the time) close embrace & the rest a more
open style. I just physically get too hot. Jokingly, I always say its akin
to dancing with a furnace or a hot-water heater. That's a joke. I never
choose the style w/ someone I don't know well, only w/ people that I know &
its already clear to me that they prefer this style. For people that I don't
know well, I offer a little door opener after I've gotten to know them some
by saying that I know how to do it & if they would like to dance
close-embrace to let me know.
Rick Anderson
Portland, OR
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:02:16 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
I offer a little door opener after I've gotten to know them some
> by saying that I know how to do it & if they would like to dance
> close-embrace to let me know.
>
Sorry to say so, Bugs, there may be a cultural difference, but this must be
the silliest thing I have heard in relation to tango. It sounds like: "I
know how to kiss, if you are going to let me and do not mind, please let me
know at your convenience."
The woman lets you know by the way she places her left hand or arm on your
shoulder which allows you to move in or functions like a buffer to stop you.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:23:05 -0800
From: Deborah Holm <dmholm@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
Hello, all.
Hope everyone had a nice holiday.
I was very happy to see Astrid's comments:
>>At the risk of endlessly repeating myself, I'd like to point out, that
>>whether you dance in close embrace is not just a question of sexual mores
>>and how comfortable you feel with a partner. Dancing as close the
Argentines
>>(and many other people) do, requires a certain posture and balance, and
even
>>a certain type of chest (asthenically flat or sunken won't do in the man,
>>nor a chest-back-shoulders-forward type of body) that enable the woman to
>>enter the diagonal without jeopardizing the balance of the couple, and
>>without having to lean on the man's shoulders. This kind of embrace needs
>>considerably more training than dancing straight upright at a distance,
>>where you pretty much just do a synchronized walk, rather than attempting
to
>>move as "one body with four legs".
I'm sorry to hear that "this" kind of embrace needs considerably more
training
than dancing straight upright at a distance.
When I was in Buenos Aires I didn't dance with a man who had a "chest-back-
shoulders-forward" type of body. And there was no diagonal (in an embrace).
I wonder how the women from Buenos Aires feel when they dance with a man
from ... wherever?
Deborah Holm
San Francisco, California, USA
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:47:10 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
Dan wrote:
>Close embrace may be affected by cultural, psychological, and temperment
>but certainly not strongly contrasted between the US and Argentina.
The word "strongly" makes these comments difficult to interpret... Despite
a sincere desire on the part of most Americans to dance tango
authentically, our approach differs from that of the Argentines. Most of
us have to learn the rhythm. In addition, dancing on the body has a
different meaning in our culture because we are less oriented toward
cuddling with acquaintances.
In many US cities, the culture is such that people are less selective about
their partners. The women compensate by assuming a more distant embrace.
If a man proves his dance skills, the woman may or may not pull herself
into a tight embrace.... The less selective approach to choosing partners
means less practice in dancing in a close embrace.
I recognize that I am writing in generalizations that can be picked apart
in the details, but I think culture does affect the choice of dance styles.
I do not completely accept the notion that theatrically flavored tango
continues to be danced in some US communities strictly out of ignorance...
It must also be shaped by local tastes.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
http://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:41:46 -0600
From: Lisandro <lisandro.gomez@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
"In most North America cities, tango is typically danced in an embrace that
is more open than the body-on-body embrace used in Argentina. Even those
Argentines dancing salon tango typically use a closer embrace than most
North American tango dancers would find socially comfortable. Americans
and Canadians are typically more reserved people than Argentines", says
Stephen P Brown.
I hold a different point of view. In Canada for example, there are many
different cultures that have contributed to the character of the country.
Some would say that those of French or even Maritime extraction may be
characterized as open and warm, and far less reserved than peoples of
British decent-but this too, is prejudicial. And tango is danced in big
cities in Canada, and attracts many people of multiple ethnicities-Chinese,
Italian, Eastern European, Mexican, Chilean etc. etc. etc.So what exactly do
you mean when you say "Canadian" or "American"? And why do you assume that
Canadians and Americans are the same? Multiple nationalities contribute to
the North American landscape and many of these people would find your
observations of them as "reserved", a bit prejudiced. My observation is
that many factors contribute to how people dance. Being of "latin
extraction" rarely means the individual will necessarily dance in a closer
embrace. Rather people dance according to mood, music, and according to who
has taught them. My own experience in B. Aires was that people dance in all
sorts of ways, some favouring more open embrace-others , more close. In
other words I am tired of the "myth" that in B. Aires they "all dance this
way or that way". Additionally, some Argentine women complained that at
times, the closer embrace reflects male dominance and abuse of power via the
dance, rather than warmth. And this happens right here, in N. America too.
And if you further review tango in Argentina, you will be reminded of the
fact that at one point the "close embrace" was rejected by the Argentine
upper class based on "lack of decency". The other aspect I would add, is
tango is relatively new in N. America. In Argentina, it had been for a very
long time, part of the social and cultural fabric of the people, and had
evolved as an expression of the people. In N. America by contrast, people
dance an interpretation of tango, as it is still relatively foreign here,
and has never been part of this mainstream culture. Tango here, will
hopefully continue to evolve with people exploring and experimenting with
different styles- some close, others open, etc., and in my opinion, all
valid. So even though it may seem appealing to categorize how people dance
tango , I would be careful with generalizations.
Tatiana
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:09:11 -0800
From: "Larry E. Carroll" <larrydla@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
Steve's basic point is true, of course. Our culture influences every
thing we do and become.
But concluding (as some have done) that Argentines dance close and
intimate and foreigners dance apart and exhibitionistic is to make a
rainbow world binary black-and-white.
In Los Angeles and San Francisco you'll see every style of tango. Some
people, such as myself, dance them all, depending on the music and the
mood and the partner. Because teachers of every style come through these
two cities and tango fanatics attend their classes, become enthusiastic
about a style, and spread it to others. We buy video tapes and study
them, access the internet and read articles about tango from various
professional and fan web sites, communicate via email, etc.
The culture of California (and the rest of the US and of Europe) is one
of jet travel, personal autos, video tapes, etc.
Argentina is also a cosmopolitan country, colored by its corrupt
political system and inept economy, but still a complex society. To say
that "Argentines do <something>" is automatically wrong, except of such
universal activities as breathing.
Not every Argentine family can afford a car, but the barrios are no
longer islands with few immigrants. The buses and the subte and
motorcycles and cabs make it easy to travel to any milonga in central
Buenos Aires. In the hot and humid summer (January and February) people
of moderate means can travel to cooler climes, and the milongas there. A
retired woman who I met in BsAs can carefullly save enough money to make
a monthly pilgrimage from the Lakes District to get her monthly fix of
tango in BsAs.
People who come back from BsAs and say that Argentines only dance in one
style are ignorant. Some of them because they timidly or stubbornly
stuck to the milongas where their favorite style was done. Some of them
lying to themselves and others because they want to force their own
favorite style on others.
The microculture of the individual milonga DOES affect the styles danced
there. Go the hangout of Gustavo and Fabian and you will see more of
what used to be called Tango Nuevo. Go to another frequented by one
particular older crowd and most of them will be dancing apart,
contempuous of the vulgar "belly-to-belly" style (as one man there
called it).
Go to one youth-oriented milonga and you will see a lot of apilado style
and some hot-and-heavy petting masked by a crowd so packed that all you
can do is shift from foot to foot. Go to another youth-oriented milonga
which has a much-looser floor and you will see very acrobatic stuff,
including saltations (leaps/lifts).
But even this tendency to see more of one style at a milonga is only a
tendency. There are always those who come to any milonga and do exactly
as they please, despite the microculture.
Then there are practicas, of which there are many in BsAs, often after a
dance class, and sometimes longer than the class. They have a
microculture different from milongas. Milongas have a lot of strangers,
including tourists, who may be incompetent or impertinent. The eye-game
is assiduously practiced there, protecting women from dancing with
anyone they do not want to.
In practicas, however, almost everyone is a dedicated and oftentimes
very skilled dancer. Women think little of verbally asking a man (who
she may have known for years, or who is simply a foreigner with some
interesting technique) for a dance. The music at practicas is not
necessarily in tandas (sets of four/five similar pieces of music), and
the custom does not decree that you dance with anyone for more than one
piece of music. Music at practicas tend to be more modern, complex, and
rhythmically challenging.
That's enough. I should be finishing up an article for Variety Magazine,
not seduced away from serious writing by TANGO-L.
All my love to tango dancers everywhere and may you have a terrific new
year.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:35:54 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
I'm curious, if the dance styles in Argentina are varied, can the same be
said for the dance music?
Rick Anderson
Portland, OR
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 06:31:37 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
Larry Carroll wrote:
>Steve's basic point is true, of course. Our culture influences every
>thing we do and become.
>But concluding (as some have done) that Argentines dance close and
>intimate and foreigners dance apart and exhibitionistic is to make a
>rainbow world binary black-and-white.
I am glad that Larry wrote, "as some have done," because it certainly would
be a misinterpretation to find a binary statement in my original comments,
"Some have noticed a divergence between the way Argentine tango is danced
in many North American cities and the way it is danced in Argentina ... In
most North America cities, tango is typically danced in an embrace that is
more open than the body-on-body embrace used in Argentina."
For one thing, more than one style uses a close embrace.
>In Los Angeles and San Francisco you'll see every style of tango. ...
>People who come back from BsAs and say that Argentines only dance in one
>style are ignorant.
I would agree with both of these statements, but it would also be a
mistaken extrapolation to conclude that the dominant styles of tango
dancing in the United States and Buenos Aires are essentially the same...
Some people have attributed that difference to the influence of the
teachers. Another contributing factor could be inexperience with the
music. I would add the externally focused culture of the United States as
also being among the influences on the choice of styles....
Unlike some, I do not claim that one style is superior to another--although
I do have reservations about the use of fantasia elements in social dancing
because their use can be dangerous in such a setting.
With best regards to all and a Happy 2002,
Steve
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 12:00:39 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
Steve's original comment:
>I am glad that Larry wrote, "as some have done," because it certainly would
>be a misinterpretation to find a binary statement in my original comments,
>"Some have noticed a divergence between the way Argentine tango is danced
>in many North American cities and the way it is danced in Argentina ... In
>most North America cities, tango is typically danced in an embrace that is
>more open than the body-on-body embrace used in Argentina."
>
>For one thing, more than one style uses a close embrace.
Larry's Response
> >In Los Angeles and San Francisco you'll see every style of tango. ...
>>People who come back from BsAs and say that Argentines only dance in one
>>style are ignorant.
>
>I would agree with both of these statements, but it would also be a
>mistaken extrapolation to conclude that the dominant styles of tango
>dancing in the United States and Buenos Aires are essentially the same...
>Some people have attributed that difference to the influence of the
>teachers. Another contributing factor could be inexperience with the
>music. I would add the externally focused culture of the United States as
>also being among the influences on the choice of styles....
I'm willing to make a binary, "black-&-white" statement:
* Tango is different between the US & Buenos Aires. *
This is certainly due to many factors:
- Cultural differences
- Lack of information or awareness
- Non-typical styles being taught
- Inauthentic modeling by the majority of the local dancers
- Inexperience with the music.
- A fascination with a complex or stage-oriented approach to tango
But, the main difference isn't so much a STYLISTIC issue.
The fundamental difference between Tango in the US and Argentina, has
more to do with the "FEEL" or the "HEART & SOUL" of tango. The issues
are:
- connection & internal
- drive & energy
- rhythm & musicality,
- masculinity & femininity
- intimacy & sexuality
In Buenos Aires, tango is an earthy, sensual, sweaty, LATIN dance,
while in the US it feels more like a lighter, "ballroomy" dance.
In Buenos Aires the men EMBRACE the women, and the women really "give
themselves up to" the embrace.
Does it Matter?
It may be that an authentic FEEL doesn't matter to many newcomers;
they're looking for a fun social time, a possibility of romance, and
what the hell, tango is pretty romantic. Maybe next week I'll go
contra dancing.
But, what I find odd is the high percentage of teachers who approach
tango with an external, ballroom or acrobatic sensibility..."do
these steps & figures, and now you're doing tango", or "get really
good at this boleo technique".
In my experience, many N. Americans are certainly capable of finding
the passion, drive and feel of tango ("just like in Buenos Aires"). I
will go further and say that, they really love it and pursue these
aspects of tango.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:18:35 -0800
From: JeffryesSussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultural Influence on Styles of Tango
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> Sorry to say so, Bugs, there may be a cultural
> difference, but this must be
> the silliest thing I have heard in relation to
> tango. It sounds like: "I
> know how to kiss, if you are going to let me and do
> not mind, please let me
> know at your convenience."
> The woman lets you know by the way she places her
> left hand or arm on your
> shoulder which allows you to move in or functions
> like a buffer to stop you.
Well put, Astrid. This dialogue you caricatured is
precisely the kind of exchange that emerged from
Antioch College some years back, when a whole protocol
for sexual "escalation" was mandated. It led to a
whole PC methodology for dating which required verbal
consent for every progression to the "next level" of
intimacy. While focusing on a real need to protect
victims from sexual harrassment, the consequences of
this kind of mincing on romance and eroticism have
been hotly debated ever since.
As for closeness of embrace, a partner suggested to me
a way to approach it which your post mentions. I
offer my left hand first. I don't embrace my partner
with my right hand until she embraces me with hers,
showing me how close she is willing to dance to me.
I would rather not ask her verbally. In fact, I'd
rather not talk at all. I talk too much the rest of
the time anyway! It's nice to dance and shut up for a
while. I want to hear what's being said without
words.
Jai
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:45:55 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
For many years, there was an old woman in San Telmo on Sundays, in
trashy outfits, sometimes intoxicated, dancing tango alone. There
was a bandoneon next to her and some pictures of tango dancers and
she tried to collect money. There was something quaint about her...
How foolish of me not to look to her for tango inspiration!
Does anybody know if she is still there?
:)
Nina
At 08:33 PM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote:
But Argentina is more than the BsAs milongas, it's the street
dancers and stage shows as well.
>--
>Myk Dowling
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:53:44 +1000
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
> From what I hear, Australia is not a very crowded place. Maybe
> Piazzolla could be considered social dancing there, but probably no
> place else.:)
Well, it depends more on the size of the dance floor than the size of
the country, surely. Yes, we often have a fair amount of space to play
with, but certainly not always.
> So how about designating what is acceptable as social Argentine tango
> country-by-country, such as Piazolla for Australia, Milonga Gay in
> every city in the U.S., stage tango in Russia, etc. Instead of other
> fake styles, such as milonguero, nuevo, etc., there could be new
> styles,. such as "Argentine tango US style", or "Argentine tango
> Australian style", etc. :)
How about recognising that people dance according to the conditions? If
there is space on the floor, it is perfectly acceptable to make use of
some of it. When things get crowded, you bring your movements in
tighter. In any case, it is certainly possible to dance to Piazzolla in
crowded conditions.
Like David said, it's a case of what you're used to. If you choose never
to dance to nuevo music, you'll never be very practised at dancing to
it. I take difficult music as a challenge, especially when the music has
as much beauty as Piazzolla's. Dammit, I _want_ to dance to that. I want
to turn that fantastic music into movement.
Personally, I'm against "splitting up" tango, other than by music.
Milonga is different to Tango is different to Vals is different to
Nuevo. You dance to each type of music in a different way. I don't dance
to a milonga the same way I dance to a tango, any more than I dance
nuevo style to a tango or vals.
Can anyone claim to dance "true Argentine Tango"? Do they dance the same
way in BsAs now as they did in the twenties? Is Tango something to be
fossilised and enshrined in a strict form, or is it a living art form?
If it's a living art form, which is certainly what I want to be part of,
then you can never really define it precisely. And you shouldn't even
try. That's what happened to ballroom dancing, and now there's no room
for creativity any more in it. As has been pointed out, "Strictly
Ballroom" is a scarily accurate portrayal.
If people aren't interested in dancing "Argentine Tango", then they'll
dance something else. Anyone who calls what they do "Argentine Tango" is
presumably looking to Argentina as the source for their art form. But
Argentina is more than the BsAs milongas, it's the street dancers and
stage shows as well.
--
Myk Dowling
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:55:32 +1000
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
> For many years, there was an old woman in San Telmo on Sundays, in
> trashy outfits, sometimes intoxicated, dancing tango alone. There
> was a bandoneon next to her and some pictures of tango dancers and
> she tried to collect money. There was something quaint about her...
>
> How foolish of me not to look to her for tango inspiration!
How foolish of me to assume that other people can tell the difference
between good dancing and bad dancing other than by its location!
--
Myk Dowling
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:59:06 +1000
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Myk Dowling wrote:
> Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>> For many years, there was an old woman in San Telmo on Sundays, in
>> trashy outfits, sometimes intoxicated, dancing tango alone. There was
>> a bandoneon next to her and some pictures of tango dancers and she
>> tried to collect money. There was something quaint about her...
>>
>> How foolish of me not to look to her for tango inspiration!
>
> How foolish of me to assume that other people can tell the difference
> between good dancing and bad dancing other than by its location!
>
And actually, who is to say that a drunken trashy dancer by herself
might not provide some kind of inspiration? Is there no story of
interest to be told there? A sad tale of failure and an uncaring
society? The sort of story that very few styles of dance could tell?
--
Myk Dowling
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:29:15 -0700
From: "Brick Robbins" <brick@fastpack.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ca2c2380807251029w3b7c5589g17754ff378361431@mail.gmail.com>
I recently had the great pleasure of listening to a symposium at a
tango festival entitled "Many styles of authentic Argentine Tango."
The panel was composed of some great dancers from all over the world,
and the discussion was interesting and lively.
It was pointed out that each of the great Milongueros has his own
unique style, influenced by where he primarily dances:
-the space available
-the style of his peers
-the house orchestra (or more recently the DJ)
So even within BsAs, and among the old guard, styles vary greatly.
It was also pointed out that some of those great Milongueros dance
VERY differently when they travel than they do at home. When they have
the space, they use it. People famous for compact movement to rhythmic
music suddenly make large movements to dramatic music, and they do it
well.
I came away with this major point:
It is all "good tango" as long as you:
1)respect yourself
2)respect your partner
3)respect the music
4)respect the people around you
I think a lot of the resentment against "Nuevo" dancers is because,
when they violate the 4th rule they usually do it in "big way." But
I've seen plenty of bad "traditional" dancers violate all 4.
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:43:37 -0700
From: "Huck Kennedy" <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ecf43f370807251143w4c683babgf496c05e7fde0eae@mail.gmail.com>
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 10:29 AM, Brick Robbins <brick@fastpack.com> wrote:
>
> I came away with this major point:
>
> It is all "good tango" as long as you:
> 1) respect yourself
> 2) respect your partner
> 3) respect the music
> 4) respect the people around you
>
> I think a lot of the resentment against "Nuevo" dancers is because,
> when they violate the 4th rule they usually do it in "big way." But
> I've seen plenty of bad "traditional" dancers violate all 4.
Good point. But with that in mind, observe how close-embrace
leaders have a huge advantage complying with rule #4 right off the
bat: It is physically impossible for them to look at their feet (as
so many amateur nuevo dancers do), and it is also physically
impossible for them to ogle their partner's hot little outfit and
bedroom eyes (as so many amateur nuevo dancers do--and which the close
embrace leaders do as well, of course, except they do it between songs
rather than during :-). With those major distractions gone from the
equation, the close-embrace leader is left with the freedom to
actually look at the other dancers and navigate with little to no
effort.
So almost by definition, close-embrace is a much more
socially-oriented dance than nuevo. There is a much greater focus on
the other dancers on the floor. Dancing becomes a cooperative project
shared by many, rather a self-centered, private little world
comprising just two people.
The many private little two-person worlds behavior that nuevo
tends to induce resembles the scientific model of molecules easily
prone to random collisions. The cooperative behavior that close
embrace fosters, on the other hand, more resembles the graceful
collective movement of a school of fish in the ocean.
Huck
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:12:46 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Huck wrote:
> The many private little two-person worlds behavior that nuevo
> tends to induce resembles the scientific model of molecules easily
> prone to random collisions.
Robert Hauk of Portland uses the expression "gas molecules."
With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you.
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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:24:45 -0700
From: "Huck Kennedy" <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ecf43f370807251224i6e8da68aw7b0b0a060124fe05@mail.gmail.com>
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Darya Khripkova
<dkhripkova@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Close-embrace leaders have a "blind spot" and their follower's eyes are
> closed too :) Call it even?
Actually no, to be honest. The blind spot is easily dealt with
through turning relatively frequently (so as to get other viewpoints),
and through trust that the other dancers will behave as they are
supposed to behave, ie. not pass you, not overrun you from behind, not
dance backwards in the line of dance, not zig-zag in and out of lanes,
etc.
Btw, this brings up an interesting problem that ballroom dancers
often bring to tango. They are taught that the slower dancers should
be in the inside lanes, while the faster dancers should be on the
outside. So a ballroom dancer will think nothing of passing somebody
on the outside. Passing (since it is allowed in the first place) on
the outside rather than the inside is actually good in ballroom,
because it helps prevent the dance floor from decaying into the
middle. And the maneuver works out fine, because the follower's head
is way back and out of the way and the all the leaders can see
everywhere; but it can be disastrous in the tango world, because the
blind spot prevents the leader from seeing the passer coming, and the
leader doesn't expect him in the first place due to traditional
no-passing codigos.
Some of the rudest behavior I've seen on a tango dance floor is
some clown trying to squeeze himself and his partner through the half
meter blind spot between me and my partner (in the outside lane) and
the front row of tables.
Huck
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:32:00 -0500
From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Huck,
> So almost by definition, close-embrace is a much more socially-
> oriented dance than nuevo.
It appears that your "definition" of close embrace is, somehow,
dancing so that it is physically impossible to see your partner and
the dance floor.
Is that because close embrace dancers dance with their eyes closed? I
have noticed that among self-described close embrace dancers, but I
didn't realize it was de rigueur.
And "nuevo" dancing implies that you look down and ogle your partner's
outfit. Can't say that I've noticed the ogling part. But, my eyes are
getting old.
Now that tango has evolved into two types, close embrace and nuevo,
all that remains is for everyone to choose a side and declare their
allegiance.
Which would be simplified if we would all just admit what everyone is
already thinking: "close embrace" means good dancing, and "nuevo"
means bad dancing.
Is there anyone out there who self identifies as a "nuevo" ?
Didn't think so.
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:24:21 -0600
From: David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
>> And "nuevo" dancing implies that you look down and ogle your partner's
>> outfit.
Forget this outfit business Joe. I've been working very hard on my Tango Doble Frente
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tymrs60k3dU
so that I could look down and ogle my partners backside, I mean, high-heels.
Cheers,
David
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Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:18:39 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
To: "David Thorn" <thorn-inside@hotmail.com>, "tango-l"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: antontango@yahoo.com
In ballroom, this is called shadow position. Anton Gazeenbeek knows a lot about this and teaches it at the School of Traditional Argentine Tango in New York. (I hope I got the name right.) Watch this clip of dancing with sticks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsuIuxz5_Eo
Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
>> And "nuevo" dancing implies that you look down and ogle your partner's
>> outfit.
Forget this outfit business Joe. I've been working very hard on my Tango Doble Frente
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tymrs60k3dU
so that I could look down and ogle my partners backside, I mean, high-heels.
Cheers,
David
Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008
