4763 Dance what you like
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:47:31 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dance what you like
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hello, everyone,
I am picking up where Deby left off.
So why is it that as Deby had put it, it is the people from the U.S.
that try these strange "innovations" and call it Argentine tango?
My theory is that in order to respect another culture, one has to
have respect either for one's own culture that he/she was born into
or a culture he/she has chosen as theirs. In my experience, most
Americans do not respect their own culture because they do not know
it. So how can they respect another culture, such as Argentine?
I am speaking in absolutes now. There are exceptions and there are
American people who know, love and understand their own
culture. However, in my experience, this is not the case with the
majority. American culture is rich and anyone who is fond of road
trips knows it. People in tiny rural places had taught me many
things about American culture - its value of honesty and genuine
friendliness, trusting the strangers and extreme politeness, among
many other things.
On the other hand, what culture excepts trends such as re-making
classic films? What arrogance has to be there tor emake great films
such as "The Manchurian Candidate", "La Femme Nikita", "Shall We
Dance?", among many others?!
When I first heard that Americans were remaking great movies, my
first questions were "What was wrong with the original one? Was it
not good enough? Did it need improvement?"
If you look at diluted remakes of these great films, you will see
that they lack intensity and they have "Hollywood endings" where all
ends well. Is it because the people who remake these movies feel
that Americans cannot take the intensity or acce[t unhappy endings?
Argentine tango is intense. It is disturbing. True, differently for
different people, but disturbing nevertheless. It messes with deep,
almost primal emotions. It is not intellectual for most people who
dance it. The culture where it emerged is rich, joyful and
tragic. There is a reason why Argentine tango as a dance did not
emerge in any other part of the world.
Perhaps, the alternative non-tango is the "tango light" (fat-free,
sugar-free, will-not-disturb-your-illusions-about-yourself) of those
individuals who cannot handle the real thing, who need a diluted
version to never be disturbed, and to always have a happy ending.
Perhaps, there is a deeper psychological reason for thie ( I am
speculating now). Americans, as a cultural group, are known for
their fear of intimacy (pilgrims, introverts, looking to live in
great distance from others - long historical practice of
this). Perhaps the "tango light" offers them an escape from the
intense intimacy of Argentine Tango where no one is safe. After all,
if you dance the real thing, you have to be willing and able to be
close and intimate with another person in a real way, and yet to be
able to say goodbye, and still hold it in your heart, and still feel
its joy, and to never, ever try to possess it or the other person.
But then... if a person is crippled, you can tell them "Dance!" all
you want and they still cannot do it. So maybe the real thing is not
for everyone.
Best regards to all,
Nina
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:28:03 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dance what you like
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Pesochinsky> that try these strange "innovations" and call it Argentine tango?
Are we talking about music or dancing? Because to me it seems that 'new' tango is quite a contemporary Argentine invention. As for the dancing, it is definitely made by some young(er) Argentines.
Check (made a few days ago in BsAs, performance by Mariana and Sebastian)
https://www.tangomania.hu/bsas_2007/sebastian_mariana.wmv
It is Color Tango (does that qualify as tango for you? Compared to even Juan Maglio or Firpo, not to mention Gardel it is a completely different style of music), but the dancing is not canyengue either... :)
If you are disturbed by tango dance being danced to non-tango music, then reminder: it is something that happened before tango became 'Argentine'... If you would dance to early European recordings of tango (by military orchestras pre 1911...) then it is just as much of a perversion to contemporary tangos as when you dance to Llhasa de Sela, still it was the main trigger why tango DANCING was accepted in Argentina later on...
Pesochinsky> Perhaps, the alternative non-tango is the "tango light" (fat-free,
Pesochinsky> sugar-free, will-not-disturb-your-illusions-about-yourself) of those
Pesochinsky> individuals who cannot handle the real thing, who need a diluted
Pesochinsky> version to never be disturbed, and to always have a happy ending.
I believe that the 'traditional tango' you refer to is like Turkish Coffee, while nuevo is something like the mixed, spiced stuff you get at Starbucks. Some like the former, some the latte(r). :)
We have pretty good cafeterias around here (Europe), but I don't say what Starbucks sells is worse. It is different. It is also coffee...
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:44:03 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dance what you like
To: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>, TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
> In my experience, most
> Americans do not respect their own culture because they do not know
> it. So how can they respect another culture, such as Argentine?
>
You win the prize for broad generalization of the week (and please
note I'm not one of those EEUUienses).
Unless, of course, some US natives respond with some cultural stereotypes
about Argentines - God knows there are plenty of those around too, if the
need arises.
It's particularly inappropriate because the Americans who do
not know their own culture aren't likely to be on this list anyway -
chances are they know no culture at all and don't subscribe to tango-l.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 04:58:43 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dance what you like
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
Hi, Alexis,
Now I pass this generalization prize to you!
You must not have been reading carefully. Everything is understood
only in context. You took my words OUT of the context in which they
were presented, especially with my disclaimer that this
generalization was from MY experience. YOUR experience must be
different, so please do not confuse YOUR experience with mine.
I will explain:
Some Americans get offended when a statement show up like "most
Americans do not know their own culture", but when you ask them "what
is your culture? what are some elements of your culture?", they
cannot say, and some say "I don't know."
In regard to this discussion about alternative music for tango and is
it still Argentine tango when the steps are danced to other music,
Americans betray a huge disrespect for their own culture and for
Argentine culture when they dance what they call tango to the music
that is American swing, for example, and still try to insist that it
is Argentine tango.
Swing has a great cultural significance, both as music and as
dance. It is no less culturally bound than Argentine tango.
Back to the significance of context - if you read carefully and pay
attention to the context that surrounds the words that get your
hackles up, then you will see right away that things are a lot less
volatile than you thought.
Best,
Nina
At 03:44 AM 2/26/2007, Alexis Cousein wrote:
>Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>>In my experience, most Americans do not respect their own culture
>>because they do not know it. So how can they respect another
>>culture, such as Argentine?
>You win the prize for broad generalization of the week (and please
>note I'm not one of those EEUUienses).
>
>Unless, of course, some US natives respond with some cultural stereotypes
>about Argentines - God knows there are plenty of those around too, if the
>need arises.
>
>It's particularly inappropriate because the Americans who do
>not know their own culture aren't likely to be on this list anyway -
>chances are they know no culture at all and don't subscribe to tango-l.
>
>
>
>--
>Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
>Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
>--
><If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
