4962 to the Dancer and the Musician
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:50:21 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician
> Linda,
> D'Arinezo is simple !?
> Ok. Why not to play like D'Arienzo, then. If it is simple. Or it is so
> simple that our advanced musicians do not even bother to try. But as a test?
> Well, at dancing parties we want sometimes something simple. It goes in
> waves, you know..
> How about Firpo, Canaro, Ortiz, Orquesta Tipica Victor? Their groups, trios
> and quartets? No. You jump to Biagi. Ever seen a musician trying to play
> Chopin before a folk dance is mastered?
>
> What is that pointed you in my message that I have limited knowledge about?
> You did not specify it, please, do! I never learned music theory, but so
> what?
\
so you tread where you do not know what you speak of. That makes a
difference on your statements validity. You make SO many assumptions about
what musicians think but, you know very little in the way of fact as to what
we think or believe. Arrogance based in ignorance is very unimpressive.
>
> "Simple" is not a name-calling. It is the basis. It takes the true
> understanding to make things simple. Mastering "simple" is a sign of
> maturity. My plea to play simple does not insult anyone, except those who
> deserve be insulted. If you are not able to play simple, you should not even
> try to play complex! Otherwise you do not understand what you are doing, and
> that is exactly what I am talking about.
\
That is the ONLY thing you've said that made sense and had some validity.
Sometimes simplicity is sublime.
>
> Biagi style is based on older, more traditional tango. How can you possibly
> study and make conclusions about Biagi, if you do not know the basis Biagi
> stand upon? You must understand that Biagi's audience was savvy, and the
> goals of Biagi was to play music and impress those who knew older staff
> already. That is how I understand it.
By the way the word is 'stuff' not staff.
>
> With modern technology you have way more music examples, material to study
> than any of musicians of the past. Use it!
>
> I do not know the group you was talking about, but I know that there are
> good musicians trying to play good tangos. For example, San Francisco's
> Tango No 9 is very good. They play in many styles and very rhythmically and
> danceably correct. And they can play Piazzolla too. My greatest respect to
> those who play right tangos for us !!!
\
The respect should be for the attempt and then you help nurture. Arrogance
doe snot nurture.
>
>
> Igor Polk.
> PS,
> Aj, there is NO ONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD WHO KNOWS HOW TO PLAY TANGO LIKE IN
> OLD TIMES !
> There is no one to take advice from.
> There is only one source of knowledge - CDs with old records.
>
> And THAT IS GOOD ! It puts everyone in the world on the same starting line !
> Buy 300 Tango CDs, study them - and here you are - with some luck you are a
> TANGO GOD !!!
Hmm ok go learn tango from videos only. That's' exactly what you just told
me! That's also kind of a clueless statement as there are students of the
original players. This exactly what Linda means, "talking about things you
don't know enough about." You still don't seem to comprehend that
transcription alone is not studying music.
>
>
>There is nothing really special about it. The recopy is simple: start with
>beginning ! Start building your house from the basement !
Until you try something yourself you should not attempt advice.
>WHY, WHY, WHY, ( as Aj said ) there are so many great, educated, talented
>tango musicians,
>and there are so many of them who can not play tango right !!!!?????
They may not play tango how you want them to but, that is where your
expertise ends.
>There is only two answers, either they are ignorant, ignorant to dancers, to
>history, or not as good as they think about themselves.
There are only two answers in your mind,. As you've proven many a time you
are very arrogant and centered around your opinion being fact and law. But,
you prove that you really don't have much basis for understanding this topic
in full. Quit while you're behind.
Oh and in the future when posting to the list ask permission to post if it
is quoting a private exchange or do you also lack etiquette?
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:03:40 -0400
From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi?n
My good friends, where is the compassion? We need
discussion but with forgiveness, openness and
compassion.
Music is every bit a language as any other. The
lyrics are a form of communication, tonal
quality, the musical notes that make up the music
convey many things including emotion.
peace, and so it is,
El Duende
> > Linda,
>> D'Arinezo is simple !?
>> Ok. Why not to play like D'Arienzo, then. If it is simple. Or it is so
>> simple that our advanced musicians do not even bother to try. But as a test?
>> Well, at dancing parties we want sometimes something simple. It goes in
>> waves, you know..
>> How about Firpo, Canaro, Ortiz, Orquesta Tipica Victor? Their groups, trios
>> and quartets? No. You jump to Biagi. Ever seen a musician trying to play
>> Chopin before a folk dance is mastered?
>>
>> What is that pointed you in my message that I have limited knowledge about?
>> You did not specify it, please, do! I never learned music theory, but so
>> what?
>\
>so you tread where you do not know what you speak of. That makes a
>difference on your statements validity. You make SO many assumptions about
>what musicians think but, you know very little in the way of fact as to what
>we think or believe. Arrogance based in ignorance is very unimpressive.
>>
>> "Simple" is not a name-calling. It is the basis. It takes the true
>> understanding to make things simple. Mastering "simple" is a sign of
>> maturity. My plea to play simple does not insult anyone, except those who
>> deserve be insulted. If you are not able to play simple, you should not even
>> try to play complex! Otherwise you do not understand what you are doing, and
>> that is exactly what I am talking about.
>\
>That is the ONLY thing you've said that made sense and had some validity.
>Sometimes simplicity is sublime.
>>
>> Biagi style is based on older, more traditional tango. How can you possibly
>> study and make conclusions about Biagi, if you do not know the basis Biagi
>> stand upon? You must understand that Biagi's audience was savvy, and the
>> goals of Biagi was to play music and impress those who knew older staff
>> already. That is how I understand it.
>
>By the way the word is 'stuff' not staff.
>>
>> With modern technology you have way more music examples, material to study
>> than any of musicians of the past. Use it!
>>
>> I do not know the group you was talking about, but I know that there are
>> good musicians trying to play good tangos. For example, San Francisco's
>> Tango No 9 is very good. They play in many styles and very rhythmically and
>> danceably correct. And they can play Piazzolla too. My greatest respect to
>> those who play right tangos for us !!!
>\
>The respect should be for the attempt and then you help nurture. Arrogance
>doe snot nurture.
>>
>>
>> Igor Polk.
>> PS,
>> Aj, there is NO ONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD WHO KNOWS HOW TO PLAY TANGO LIKE IN
>> OLD TIMES !
>> There is no one to take advice from.
>> There is only one source of knowledge - CDs with old records.
>>
>> And THAT IS GOOD ! It puts everyone in the world on the same starting line !
>> Buy 300 Tango CDs, study them - and here you are - with some luck you are a
>> TANGO GOD !!!
>
>
>Hmm ok go learn tango from videos only. That's' exactly what you just told
>me! That's also kind of a clueless statement as there are students of the
>original players. This exactly what Linda means, "talking about things you
>don't know enough about." You still don't seem to comprehend that
>transcription alone is not studying music.
>>
>>
>>There is nothing really special about it. The recopy is simple: start with
>>beginning ! Start building your house from the basement !
>
>Until you try something yourself you should not attempt advice.
>
>>WHY, WHY, WHY, ( as Aj said ) there are so many great, educated, talented
>>tango musicians,
>>and there are so many of them who can not play tango right !!!!?????
>
>They may not play tango how you want them to but, that is where your
>expertise ends.
>
>>There is only two answers, either they are ignorant, ignorant to dancers, to
> >history, or not as good as they think about themselves.
>
>There are only two answers in your mind,. As you've proven many a time you
>are very arrogant and centered around your opinion being fact and law. But,
>you prove that you really don't have much basis for understanding this topic
>in full. Quit while you're behind.
>
>
>Oh and in the future when posting to the list ask permission to post if it
>is quoting a private exchange or do you also lack etiquette?
>
>
--
Costa rica
?2004, por Duende de Tango, viviendo en el para?so,
todos de los derechos reservados del mundo
Rich coast,
of flowers and dreams,
dancing nights,
and candle lights.
as the mist passes
into the night ...
I miss her breath
of life and ...
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:31:32 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi ? n
You'll notice the arrogance and animosity is most often not generated by the
musician(s) in this discussion.
_A
> From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@mac.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:03:40 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi?n
>
> My good friends, where is the compassion? We need
> discussion but with forgiveness, openness and
> compassion.
>
> Music is every bit a language as any other. The
> lyrics are a form of communication, tonal
> quality, the musical notes that make up the music
> convey many things including emotion.
>
> peace, and so it is,
>
> El Duende
>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 02:50:32 +0200
From: Thorsten Z?rner <mail@thorstenzoerner.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi?n
Cc: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
My dear friend _A,
in my humble opinion you are totally mistaken with your last statement.
To me _Arrogance and _Animosity are sparking off your every posting.
How strange! I only know very friendly and open minded musicians -
and I know many.
May I ask you, what your main instrument/discipline is?
And please, what is your name in the first place?
Lastly I second to El Duende.
Kind regards,
Thorsten.
On 24.05.07, at 02:31, AJ Azure wrote:
> You'll notice the arrogance and animosity is most often not
> generated by the
> musician(s) in this discussion.
>
> _A
>
>
>> From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@mac.com>
>> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:03:40 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi?n
>>
>> My good friends, where is the compassion? We need
>> discussion but with forgiveness, openness and
>> compassion.
>>
>> Music is every bit a language as any other. The
>> lyrics are a form of communication, tonal
>> quality, the musical notes that make up the music
>> convey many things including emotion.
>>
>> peace, and so it is,
>>
>> El Duende
>>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:54:08 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi?n
Aj said:
"You'll notice the arrogance and animosity is most often not generated by
the
musician(s) in this discussion."
Yes?
Aj, are you a musician?
What other music you play beyond tango?
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:00:49 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi ? n
I am merely being reactionary to the arrogance and animosity levied at
musicians. I am very open minded when approached with some respect.
My comments are not coming from a place of arrogance or animosity. Clearly
that is not the case with Chris or Igor's postings.
My main instrument is steel guitar but, I have played standard guitar since
the age of 10 (23 years), have studied at the Berklee College of Music, the
New England Conservatory of Music AND my grandmother was tango singer in
BsAs. SO I am not just blowing wind.
Now I am glad to have a civilized discussion when both sides are respectful
and realistic about their knowledge. For example, I don't; claim to be a
master tango dancer nor an authority on it and I do not attempt to speak as
if I am.
> From: Thorsten Z?rner <mail@thorstenzoerner.de>
> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 02:50:32 +0200
> Cc: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi?n
>
> My dear friend _A,
>
> in my humble opinion you are totally mistaken with your last statement.
> To me _Arrogance and _Animosity are sparking off your every posting.
>
> How strange! I only know very friendly and open minded musicians -
> and I know many.
> May I ask you, what your main instrument/discipline is?
> And please, what is your name in the first place?
>
> Lastly I second to El Duende.
>
> Kind regards,
> Thorsten.
>
>
> On 24.05.07, at 02:31, AJ Azure wrote:
>> You'll notice the arrogance and animosity is most often not
>> generated by the
>> musician(s) in this discussion.
>>
>> _A
>>
>>
>>> From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@mac.com>
>>> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:03:40 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi?n
>>>
>>> My good friends, where is the compassion? We need
>>> discussion but with forgiveness, openness and
>>> compassion.
>>>
>>> Music is every bit a language as any other. The
>>> lyrics are a form of communication, tonal
>>> quality, the musical notes that make up the music
>>> convey many things including emotion.
>>>
>>> peace, and so it is,
>>>
>>> El Duende
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:07:49 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi ? n
I am a musician and play most music out there but, my group concentrates on
music of the 1900-1940s
Hot jazz
Italian
French
Latin
Gypsy jazz
Dixieland
Blues
klezmer
Swing
bigband and of course tango.
Beyond a musician I am also a producer, arranger / orchestrater, composer
and film score composer. Then in audio I teach and run recording sessions
and I DJ.
> From: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:54:08 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi?n
>
> Aj said:
> "You'll notice the arrogance and animosity is most often not generated by
> the
> musician(s) in this discussion."
>
> Yes?
> Aj, are you a musician?
> What other music you play beyond tango?
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:21:25 +1000
From: Roger <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi?n
To: tango-l@mit.edu
AJ Azure wrote:
> You'll notice the arrogance and animosity is most often not generated by the
> musician(s) in this discussion.
>
> _A
>
>
AJ you are very good.
At first I took all the vitriol to be genuine. But now I see it is a
setup.
Obviously, I should have twigged at the point where you picked on Igor's
misuse of "staff" where he meant "stuff", despite your own litany of
split infinitives, inconsistent spelling and array of typpos (oops,
sorry - make that typos). After all, who would seek to make a debating
point from a spelling error in what (I suspect) is the writer's second
language? No - you sucked me in with that as well. Clever. You're good.
But - you finally went to far with the self-referential sarcasm above -
and even I realised that you have been taking the micky all this time.
Ha ha.
You should take this routine on the road.
rde
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:57:22 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi ? n
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I'll be succinct for you, Roger. Whatever!
> From: Roger <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:21:25 +1000
> To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician - Compasi?n
>
> AJ Azure wrote:
>> You'll notice the arrogance and animosity is most often not generated by the
>> musician(s) in this discussion.
>>
>> _A
>>
>>
> AJ you are very good.
>
> At first I took all the vitriol to be genuine. But now I see it is a
> setup.
>
> Obviously, I should have twigged at the point where you picked on Igor's
> misuse of "staff" where he meant "stuff", despite your own litany of
> split infinitives, inconsistent spelling and array of typpos (oops,
> sorry - make that typos). After all, who would seek to make a debating
> point from a spelling error in what (I suspect) is the writer's second
> language? No - you sucked me in with that as well. Clever. You're good.
>
> But - you finally went to far with the self-referential sarcasm above -
> and even I realised that you have been taking the micky all this time.
> Ha ha.
>
> You should take this routine on the road.
>
> rde
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:16:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<60658.65.93.195.196.1179972992.squirrel@webmail8.pair.com>
I'm wondering if I'm not far off in thinking that a high percentage of
people reading this discussion can relate to both "sides" of the argument
we have been reading. ;-)
Who does not appreciate the years of study, work and dedication the
musician has invested to be able to stand up there and play? To
watch/listen to a fine musician is always a touch daunting for one who
cannot play. (An oft-heard refrain: "If only I hadn't stopped my lessons
when I was young ..."). Anyone who has had this thought will be generous
in judging performance.
When non-musicians applaud after a performance, some of the energy in
their clap is for that appreciation - often mixed with the wistful tinge
of personal regret.
It might be easy to almost dismiss the opinions of excitable dancers/dj's;
but in my lifetime, I have found that good musicians are such because they
have attained (through singular dedication and learned/earned humility) a
state-of-grace which does not allow them to dismiss easily. Even if they
are maybe being so dismissed. Musicians do typically have a high ground.
As was mentioned in the thread today, style of "argument" presentation is
important.
If you were to ask me which side of this "argument" today I am on, I would
tell you that I come down firmly on ... both sides.
I completely understand the excited generalizations of the dancer who
wants what they want now because we want to dance. Been there, done that.
The moment is all there is right now. A band without a sense of timing or
ability to appreciate what the dancers want is asking for feedback they
don't want. And they'll get it.
Being a musician and 2 bucks gets you a coffee.
Being a dj or dancer and 2 bucks gets you a coffee.
In terms of musicians playing in a milonga setting for dancers and being
accepted, play SHORT and tight and varied and only if you are having fun
doing that.
A milonga setting is for dancers. Seems to me dancers have a right to
demand music for dancing. There are so many concert venues and so few
dancing venues.
Playing for dancing is a specialty. If you accept the challenge, it would
be wise to pay attention to the non-musicians who are your
patrons/audience. No?
I think it all comes down to how wise and motivated to please the band
leadership is.
If the band accepts an engagement to play for dancers, make dance music.
Make 'em get up because your music is so spirited they can't sit.
If your energy is infectious and your evening flows along putting smiles
on faces and happiness in hearts, you can slow it down and get as
expressive, artistic, creative you want later on. Don't be too serious
early.
Make their feet move for a while - THEN break their hearts with your
passion for inventiveness.
A good musician has done nothing but challenge themself all their lives.
What - now there is no need to any more? You can just do what you want
without regard to where you are playing and for who?
Fine. Don't put yourself in front of dancers.
As for how much credibility "just" an excitable dancer or dj should have,
I offer this McLuhan-cited quote:
"Critics? Don't even ignore them."
:-)
Keith Elshaw
ToTANGO.net
Should I declare the biases I hold which make sme respect everybody?
Yah, I dance and dj. But, I produce and engineer music; which means I
record WONDERFUL players but edit them so they never make a mistake you
will ever hear. Ha!
We all have our place.
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:25:46 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
There seems to be a misconception that I am arguing for dancers not saying
anything, that is not the case. I am saying have some tact and respect when
asking for something. Don't criticize, request.
I want to play for dancers. I welcome guidance and requests. What I do not
want is arrogance, pomposity and rudeness sent my way.
I've seen both Igor and Chris do this to other dancers on this list as well.
It's just not civil and certainly not conducive to open discussion or growth
of a community.
Other than that, I can't disagree with anything you've said.
-AJ :)
> From: Keith Elshaw <keith@totango.net>
> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:16:32 -0400 (EDT)
> To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Subject: [Tango-L] to the Dancer and the Musician
>
>
> I'm wondering if I'm not far off in thinking that a high percentage of
> people reading this discussion can relate to both "sides" of the argument
> we have been reading. ;-)
>
> Who does not appreciate the years of study, work and dedication the
> musician has invested to be able to stand up there and play? To
> watch/listen to a fine musician is always a touch daunting for one who
> cannot play. (An oft-heard refrain: "If only I hadn't stopped my lessons
> when I was young ..."). Anyone who has had this thought will be generous
> in judging performance.
>
> When non-musicians applaud after a performance, some of the energy in
> their clap is for that appreciation - often mixed with the wistful tinge
> of personal regret.
>
>
> It might be easy to almost dismiss the opinions of excitable dancers/dj's;
> but in my lifetime, I have found that good musicians are such because they
> have attained (through singular dedication and learned/earned humility) a
> state-of-grace which does not allow them to dismiss easily. Even if they
> are maybe being so dismissed. Musicians do typically have a high ground.
>
> As was mentioned in the thread today, style of "argument" presentation is
> important.
>
>
> If you were to ask me which side of this "argument" today I am on, I would
> tell you that I come down firmly on ... both sides.
>
> I completely understand the excited generalizations of the dancer who
> wants what they want now because we want to dance. Been there, done that.
> The moment is all there is right now. A band without a sense of timing or
> ability to appreciate what the dancers want is asking for feedback they
> don't want. And they'll get it.
>
> Being a musician and 2 bucks gets you a coffee.
>
> Being a dj or dancer and 2 bucks gets you a coffee.
>
>
> In terms of musicians playing in a milonga setting for dancers and being
> accepted, play SHORT and tight and varied and only if you are having fun
> doing that.
>
> A milonga setting is for dancers. Seems to me dancers have a right to
> demand music for dancing. There are so many concert venues and so few
> dancing venues.
>
> Playing for dancing is a specialty. If you accept the challenge, it would
> be wise to pay attention to the non-musicians who are your
> patrons/audience. No?
>
> I think it all comes down to how wise and motivated to please the band
> leadership is.
>
> If the band accepts an engagement to play for dancers, make dance music.
> Make 'em get up because your music is so spirited they can't sit.
>
> If your energy is infectious and your evening flows along putting smiles
> on faces and happiness in hearts, you can slow it down and get as
> expressive, artistic, creative you want later on. Don't be too serious
> early.
>
> Make their feet move for a while - THEN break their hearts with your
> passion for inventiveness.
>
> A good musician has done nothing but challenge themself all their lives.
> What - now there is no need to any more? You can just do what you want
> without regard to where you are playing and for who?
>
> Fine. Don't put yourself in front of dancers.
>
> As for how much credibility "just" an excitable dancer or dj should have,
> I offer this McLuhan-cited quote:
>
> "Critics? Don't even ignore them."
>
> :-)
>
>
> Keith Elshaw
>
> ToTANGO.net
>
>
> Should I declare the biases I hold which make sme respect everybody?
>
> Yah, I dance and dj. But, I produce and engineer music; which means I
> record WONDERFUL players but edit them so they never make a mistake you
> will ever hear. Ha!
>
> We all have our place.
>
>
