3525 Avoiding collisions
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:01:42 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Avoiding collisions
Tanguero Chino wrote:
<<The bad news, it means the follower does not have her eyes closed, so is
not achieving the Tango Zen state.>>>
Rather than pointing a finger at a particular style as the cause of
collisions, let's dance with our eyes open so we are aware of others. When
we are bumped or kicked, aren't the offenders usually dancing with their
eyes closed or looking down at the floor, concentrating on themselves?
Ladies, where did we get the idea that we have to close our eyes when we
tango socially? Perhaps this has become the standard set by those teach and
perform.
Do we feel we have to create a certain look so we can enjoy tango? Are we
dancing for others or for ourselves?
Janis Kenyon
Buenos Aires
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:07:19 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
--- Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR> wrote:
> Ladies, where did we get the idea that we have to
> close our eyes when we
> tango socially? Perhaps this has become the
> standard set by those teach and
> perform.
>
> Do we feel we have to create a certain look so we
> can enjoy tango? Are we
> dancing for others or for ourselves?
Janis,
I close my eyes when following because it is pleasant
to do so. It also helps me to focus more completely
on my partner and the moment rather than becoming
distracted by the room and the other dancers and all
the people. It's the same reason that I close my eyes
when listening to music that I really enjoy.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:40:35 +0200
From: "Christian Lüthen" <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
Razor Girl wrote:
> --- Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR> wrote:
> > Ladies, where did we get the idea that we have to
> > close our eyes when we
> > tango socially? Perhaps this has become the
> > standard set by those teach and
> > perform.
> >
> > Do we feel we have to create a certain look so we
> > can enjoy tango? Are we
> > dancing for others or for ourselves?
>
> Janis,
>
> It also helps me to focus more completely
> on my partner and the moment rather than becoming
> distracted by the room and the other dancers and all
> the people.
When following I also prefer to close my eyes for this reason: it's much
easier to "listen" to the leader without being tempted to interfere with the
leaders leading (sure the leader will avoid crashing).
When leading I have the impression that those followers who close their eyes
follow much "better", with more trust (less conspicious), allowing to better
form a couple.
As in analogy it would be much better if a lot of those on the 2nd chair in
the front of the car close their eyes and not keep on commenting /
distracting the "car leader". ;=) In crowded traffic there could only be one
of the two leading (whereas on an empty floor both could lead at the same
moment, the follower giving leading impulses which the leader could accept
or reject, and dependingly on the lever and trust of both this could go very
far and be extremely enjoyable. (but please: only on an empty floor, do not
endanger others!)).
Happy dancing [leading and following] to everyone!
Christian
--
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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:29:57 -0400
From: Rick Jones <rwjones@FROZENGRAVITY.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
Janis Kenyon wrote:
>Ladies, where did we get the idea that we have to close our eyes when we
>tango socially?
>
This is an excellent point. When my wife and I were first learning to
tango, one of the early lesson we got was that she should keep her eyes
open because part of her "job" (so to speak) is to keep an eye out for
what's behind me. And I find that when I am dancing with my wife, I
rarely have collision problems on the floor (any floor) in part because
she is "watching my six." I think I do a pretty good job of maintaining
situational awareness, but I cannot catch everything that happens behind
my back. My wife's ocassional whisper or pull to indicate that a
collision is imminent is invaluable to our collision-free dancing.
Rick Jones
Washington DC
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:01:26 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
>Ladies, where did we get the idea that we have to close our eyes when we
>tango socially? Perhaps this has become the standard set by those teach
>and
>perform.
>
>Do we feel we have to create a certain look so we can enjoy tango? Are we
>dancing for others or for ourselves?
>
>Janis Kenyon
>Buenos Aires
Janis, you bring up an interesting question. I've noticed that some women
seem to affect a "dreamy" look when they dance. I'm thinking it's a
affectation because they wear the same look no matter who they are dancing
with, what the music is or even if they seem to be having some balance or
navigation problems (from my perspective as an observer). I tend to think is
some sort of de rigueur part of the apilado system in some parts of the
USA..... I do have the same question as you. Are they dancing for the
onlookers? Dancing with eyes closed all the time can certainly be a
hindrance to collision avoidance.
I still think it's up to everyone to avoid collisions. I tend to take
responsability for navigating the floor safely no matter what sort of
pinball style dancers might be on the floor. However, I've noticed lately
that the suddenly appearing couple who materializes in front of me (or the
other dancers who are following the LOD) are a serious hazzard to
navigation. The other big hazzard is caused by dancers who actually go
against the LOD!?!!... I think these horrible unpredictable navigation
tricks are due to people trying to execute steps and moves the have not yet
mastered.... I do wish that some tango dancers would first learn to do
simple walking and half turns very reliably and with complete control before
they attempt any sort of complicated change of direction or fancy sequence
of steps.
Manuel
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:40:22 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
Okay, I have to chime in on this dicussion.
My opinion:
When it comes to avoiding collisions the followers
responsibility is to keep her footwork tight, not
overstep what is lead, not perform high embellishments
when space is restricted, and be able to stop on a
dime.
It not her responsibility to be looking at the space
around her and advise her leader on how to manage the
space. That job is for the leader.
That is one of the reasons the leader is the leader.
If a follower is too concerned about helping her
leader avoid collisions then she won't be following,
thereby making it more difficult for her leader to
make quick changes to avoid said collisions.
There are bound to be times when the leader is
challenged, the follower may be taller than he and so
he can't see as well, or there might be an
unpredictable leader dancing crazy near him. But the
leader can adjust for this by dancing only in the
space that he can see, making turns in place, and
dancing sideways around the line of dance rather than
in a straight line so that his partner is on the
outside of the line of dance where she won't get hit.
Certainly there have been times that I have danced
with leaders who have been "navigationally challenged"
and have had to take agressive measures as a follower
to keep us from getting smashed. But that is rare.
The majority of the time the best thing a follower can
do for a leader is place her complete trust in him and
focus on following.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:27:47 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
I've got to side with Ramiro on this issue. It is
clear from his post that his elbow technique is aimed
only at men, and never at women. It's also clear that
it is a technique he reserves for repeat offenders.
I can also understand Igor's objection. As he pointed
out, most leaders make mistakes, at least
occasionally, and collisions or near misses happen. It
would be brutish and rude to react violently to
infrequent accidents. When these are a rare
occurrence, it is sufficient to acknowledge your
mistake and imply an apology by brief eye contact with
the other man. Nonetheless, let us be very clear that
any time there is any sort of collision, one or both
leaders have made a mistake.
It is only when these collisions become frequent, that
something else must be done. If it happens with the
same man twice in one month, then turning your back to
the man and taking the full impact is certainly an
acceptable response. If it were to happen 3 times in a
month, then for sure, a sharp elbow to the kidney
might be called for.
In the past, Manuel and I have disagreed on a few
points, but in this matter I think he has exactly
identified one root of the problem. He wrote "I think
these horrible unpredictable navigation tricks are due
to people trying to execute steps and moves they have
not yet mastered." I think his observation is more
accurate than the general assumption that these
leaders are selfish narcissists that care nothing for
their fellow dancers. One example that immediately
leaps to my mind is the beginner who has to look at
his follower's feet in order to execute a sacada. As
soon a man looks down at his followers feet, he stops
navigating (and dancing, for that matter). Yet I see
this all of the time, even from men who supposedly
teach sacadas. And of course, they pass this rude
behavior on to their students.
Today's wisdom for the leaders: If you can not execute
a step without looking at your partner's feet (or your
own feet!), you do not know the step, and you have no
business using that step at a milonga. Save it for the
practica. That is why we hold separate practicas and
milongas. And for everyone's sake, if you can't
execute a step properly; don't spread your ignorance
by teaching others to copy your mistakes.
And for the students: watch your teachers dance at the
milonga. If you see them looking at their feet,
politely ask for a refund, and find new teachers.
Happy dancing,
Sean
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:58:08 -0400
From: Rick Jones <rwjones@FROZENGRAVITY.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
Razor Girl wrote:
>It not (the follower's) responsibility to be looking at the space
>around her and advise her leader on how to manage the
>space. That job is for the leader.
>
Although on the one hand I agree with you that the follower's "job" is
not to be looking at the space around her and advising the leader on how
to manage that space, on the other hand, the follower has a unique
perspective into what is going on behind the leader's back. There are
many, many times when a leader has good situational awareness and can be
doing perfect tango navigation...and someone else plays the part of a
bonehead and cuts across dance lanes into someone's line of dance just
as they are, say, doing some step that entails walking backwards. It
is nice at that point if the follower can/will subtlety alert the leader
that the situation has changed and that what was once a clear line of
dance is now not. (Note: it takes two to tango.)
I do not ever discuss this with ladies; they either feel that way about
it and behave accordingly (which I prefer), or they don't. But to
improve my own odds in dancing, I try to avoid dancing with ladies who I
see out on the floor dancing with their eyes closed.
Rick Jones
Washington DC
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:16:09 +0200
From: hotmail <Peter_Jouliard@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
somebody who is executing a pattern of steps where he is so occupied with
his steps/technique that he cannot avoid collisions is NOT making technical
errors, but putting his interest in doing patterns over the interest of
other dancers to dance without being disturbed, hit, etc.
As for dancing with closed eyes. If I, as a leader, rely on the follower
having her eyes open I am doing a poor job. It IS MY job to dance in a way
that my follower is protected.
On having the eyes closed as a leader: I would say, that a good leader in a
milonga where the couple relates with the other couples, you are getting a
feel for the other dancers, I am not relying exlusively on my eyes to
navigate. And I ocasionally do close my eyes as a leader and I NEVER
collided with anybody while
having my eyes closed and I still had been moving. (of course, they are
closed always for a short moment, and I am dancing "milonguero" style) .
peter jouliard
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:53:21 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
Hi All,
Trini, here. Peter alluded to something that hasn't
been discussed yet on this thread, which is using
other senses to avoid collisions. Much of the
discussion seems to be focused on visual aids. As a
follower who closes her eyes (because I want to enjoy
my partner), I can often sense a collision coming from
hearing more noises around me, feeling a change in
temperature, feeling a movement of air nearby, feeling
his body tense up basically getting a sense that
something is different. It helps to be fully relaxed
and fully trusting of my partner (including trusting
that he has accounted for enough room for me to
stretch out my leg full length when the step, his
energy, and the music invite me to do so).
Rather than squeezing my partners shoulder to avoid
collisions, I have learned to send myself into the
ground to slow/stop us from colliding, something a few
listeros mentioned. For women, I highly recommend
learning to stretch yourself both up (from the
abdomen) and down (from the leg) to create this pause
something we learned with Alicia Pons & Robert Hauk.
(I do my best imitation of a 7 foot tall marble
statue, even though I'm only 5 foot 4). Before my
partner has realized it, the danger has usually
passed.
As for milonga organizers explaining etiquette when
necessary, I am all for it. Sometimes it takes a
little while for the message to get across, but it
does. My feeling is that the role of milonga
organizer includes setting a standard - that is part
of the trust dancers, especially students, place in me
when they hand over their entrance fee.
My two cents worth.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:22:00 -0700
From: Larry Richelli <dancekauai@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
Boy Rick,
If you avoide the followers that have their eyes
closed you are missing dancing with some of the best
dancers out there not to mention having the ladies
complete trust feels wonderful!
--- Rick Jones <rwjones@FROZENGRAVITY.COM> wrote:
> But to
> improve my own odds in dancing, I try to avoid
> dancing with ladies who I
> see out on the floor dancing with their eyes closed.
>
> Rick Jones
> Washington DC
>
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:52:26 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
Trini wrote:
>Trini, here. Peter [J.] alluded to something that hasn't
>been discussed yet on this thread, which is using
>other senses to avoid collisions.
One thing about people who talk when they are dancing. They
may distract, but their presence sure is a hell of a lot
easier to detect when my eyes are closed. ;-)
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:28:11 -0400
From: Rick Jones <rwjones@FROZENGRAVITY.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
Larry Richelli wrote:
>Boy Rick,
>If you avoide the followers that have their eyes
>closed you are missing dancing with some of the best
>dancers out there not to mention having the ladies
>complete trust feels wonderful.
>
Then I guess I'll just have to go through life as an incomplete human
being...
RJ
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:55:50 -0700
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
Rick, will you stop using women and get a real rear view mirror?;)
Personally, i enjoy dancing with ladies who tend to close their eyes. Mostly women do so because they trust leader and want to to give it all. I am not suggesting women should "fake" closing their eyes when they dont feel a thing.
Strangely my own navigation is at best when I close my eyes.
Rick Jones <rwjones@FROZENGRAVITY.COM> wrote:Larry Richelli wrote:
>Boy Rick,
>If you avoide the followers that have their eyes
>closed you are missing dancing with some of the best
>dancers out there not to mention having the ladies
>complete trust feels wonderful.
>
Then I guess I'll just have to go through life as an incomplete human
being...
RJ
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:10:46 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
--- Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Strangely my own navigation is at best when I close
> my eyes.
If that were true of my navigation, I don't think I
would mention it.
;-)
Marisa
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:28:51 -0400
From: Rick Jones <rwjones@FROZENGRAVITY.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
You know, if you learn to eat holding the fork in your right hand, that
tends to be the way you go through life.
When my wife and I were first learning to tango, one of our early
seminal teachers made it a point of emphasizing that the woman **should
not** be dancing with her eyes closed. The point was well made, and
that's probably how we'll both go through the rest of our lives thinking
about tango.
Such is life...
Ricardo Honaze de Washington DC
Iron Logic wrote:
>Rick, will you stop using women and get a real rear view mirror?;)
>
>Personally, i enjoy dancing with ladies who tend to close their eyes. Mostly women do so because they trust leader and want to to give it all. I am not suggesting women should "fake" closing their eyes when they dont feel a thing
>
>
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:38:58 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <CRojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions
To the leaders: do you think a woman likes to hit or be hit/smashed into
another couple?, will you?, of course not.
If a follower has had a bad experience, then of course she is going to stay
alert and help out, especially if we as leaders have not yet developed good
navigation skills, and they know when we are developing our skills, and when
they are good or bad. We as leaders have to "earn" a follower's trust, and
we can only do it by taken care of her and others in the dance floor.
If you run into another person, apologize to your partner and the other
couple even if you think that the other guy is at fault (he is thinking the
same of you). Learn why it happened and how you could have avoided it.
WE ALL have been beginners and WE ALL make mistakes. Remember, we are only
human and that is why we love tango.
Carlos Rojas
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 10:29 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Avoiding collisions
You know, if you learn to eat holding the fork in your right hand, that
tends to be the way you go through life.
When my wife and I were first learning to tango, one of our early
seminal teachers made it a point of emphasizing that the woman **should
not** be dancing with her eyes closed. The point was well made, and
that's probably how we'll both go through the rest of our lives thinking
about tango.
Such is life...
Ricardo Honaze de Washington DC
Iron Logic wrote:
>Rick, will you stop using women and get a real rear view mirror?;)
>
>Personally, i enjoy dancing with ladies who tend to close their eyes.
Mostly women do so because they trust leader and want to to give it all. I
am not suggesting women should "fake" closing their eyes when they dont
feel a thing
>
>
