3507 Conflicting tango styles
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:48:48 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Conflicting tango styles
Ron says:
"The greatest potential for conflict that I see is when there are
numerous fantasia style dancers at the milongas ".
There are several elements to take into account:
#1 - There are several tango styles, they are here to stay. They are
different, one is not superior or inferior to any other. To dance one style
is a personal choice that should be respected. Should you prefer to dance in
a simple way (Tango liso) without any embellishments, just walking and doing
a few ochos, this is fine. Should you like to dance traditional tango, with
all the embellishments available, in close and open style this is fine as
well. Should you prefer milonguero or nuevo, no objection either.
#2 - Milonga codes must be followed because they are created to allow all
participants to be able to dance without interference from other couples.
These codes must be enforced by the organizers of the milonga. It is best to
give general instructions so that nobody can take it personal.
These general instructions should become more and more specific as needed.
A good dancer never interferes with other couples, he should adjust his
style to the space that is available at the time. He knows to dance in a
very compact way, close embrace to dance on very crowded floors. He knows
that he must follow the line of dance. He knows that he should not touch any
other couple. He is able to use the available space without causing any
disruption.
The ones that disrupt are beginners or poor dancers, it does not matter what
style of tango they cultivate. You could have, for example a Tango liso
dancer that is very slow moving, fails to occupy the available space in
front of him holding the line, etc, etc. A good fantasia dancer could say
with the same authority as Ron's " one of the biggest problems at the
milongas is when you have all those "liso dancers" that always are on you
way and do not move.
#3 - The milonga organizer should make sure everybody can dance without
disruption.
He has to enforce the milonga codes but at the same time he has to provide
room and place for all the styles to be danced. This could mean that he has
to rent a bigger floor or that he has to have certain times early or late to
allow Tango Fantasia to be danced, or that he has to organize different
milongas for different styles or that he has to lose all the Fantasia Tango
dancers that eventually are going to organize their own milonga.
The best dancers know how to have fun under any conditions. Remember * Good
fantasia dancers, or nuevo, or Traditional tango dancers are able to dance
without interfering with each other.
Everything has to do with the amount of space available to dance and with
knowing how to dance.
Have a good day, Sergio.
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 -0400
From: Richard deSousa <mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
In a perfect world, this would be true, but I can tell you that here in
the San Francisco Bay Area there are some tango dancers who don't
observe Sergio's rule No. 2. More often than not, other dancers
(milonguero style) have to adjust their styles to prevent collisions
with fantasia style dancers.
El Bandito de Tango
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:48:48 +0000
Subject: [TANGO-L] Conflicting tango styles
Ron says:
"The greatest potential for conflict that I see is when there are
numerous fantasia style dancers at the milongas ".
There are several elements to take into account:
#1 - There are several tango styles, they are here to stay. They are
different, one is not superior or inferior to any other. To dance one
style
is a personal choice that should be respected. Should you prefer to
dance in
a simple way (Tango liso) without any embellishments, just walking and
doing
a few ochos, this is fine. Should you like to dance traditional tango,
with
all the embellishments available, in close and open style this is fine
as
well. Should you prefer milonguero or nuevo, no objection either.
#2 - Milonga codes must be followed because they are created to allow
all
participants to be able to dance without interference from other
couples.
These codes must be enforced by the organizers of the milonga. It is
best to
give general instructions so that nobody can take it personal.
These general instructions should become more and more specific as
needed.
A good dancer never interferes with other couples, he should adjust
his
style to the space that is available at the time. He knows to dance in
a
very compact way, close embrace to dance on very crowded floors. He
knows
that he must follow the line of dance. He knows that he should not
touch any
other couple. He is able to use the available space without causing
any
disruption.
The ones that disrupt are beginners or poor dancers, it does not
matter what
style of tango they cultivate. You could have, for example a Tango
liso
dancer that is very slow moving, fails to occupy the available space
in
front of him holding the line, etc, etc. A good fantasia dancer could
say
with the same authority as Ron's " one of the biggest problems at the
milongas is when you have all those "liso dancers" that always are on
you
way and do not move.
#3 - The milonga organizer should make sure everybody can dance
without
disruption.
He has to enforce the milonga codes but at the same time he has to
provide
room and place for all the styles to be danced. This could mean that
he has
to rent a bigger floor or that he has to have certain times early or
late to
allow Tango Fantasia to be danced, or that he has to organize
different
milongas for different styles or that he has to lose all the Fantasia
Tango
dancers that eventually are going to organize their own milonga.
The best dancers know how to have fun under any conditions. Remember *
Good
fantasia dancers, or nuevo, or Traditional tango dancers are able to
dance
without interfering with each other.
Everything has to do with the amount of space available to dance and
with
knowing how to dance.
Have a good day, Sergio.
to
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:54:07 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Conflicting tango styles
I see the only problem with Fantasia style is that it is taught more often
than other styles by teachers who have no idea about lead and follow, about
tango connection, alertness, and so forth.
They train and their students dance exclusively a visual appeal of tango,
memorized patterns without understanding its internal body roots. Of course,
such dancers are not able to adjust quickly to the ever-changing situation.
They are not able to minimize their movements preserving their internal
feeling. They are not able to stop at the half-step. ( And they are not able
to get as much pleasure too! )
Well, the same can be said about any other style..
As for milongas, it is simple. Keep feet on the floor, and they will not
kick anybody. It really has nothing to do with a particular style. It is
possible to dance wide and wild and careful at the same time.
Igor Polk
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:24:18 -0500
From: el turco <shusheta@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
Polarization in Tango might be very dangerous.This problem mostly
invented and endorsed by narrow -minded instructors-who is interested
in keeping the control of tango in their towns, or communities.
If the instructor tell the students which is good which bad
subjectively, the polarization starts right there.
Tango fantasia was everywehere starting with J.C. Copes and Gloria&
Eduardo Arquimbau schools, from BsAs to US, Japan, Russia etc. a
decade ago.
What's different now?
- more close embrace fans are around. Some of them are highly
intoxicated by their opininated instructors or friends who suffered in
BsAs milongas. They don't want to see other styles in the same dance
floor because they think other style dancers causes problem in Ronda
formation. Imagine everybody does ocho cortado's or gyros in same way.
Since if you learned how to dance close embrace the different ways of
doing the same move is quite a bit limited. Therefore, you will see an
uniformed dance floor. Which might be so satisfying some people, this
makes me sad. (sorry, but no offense)
- the polarization is going on in two differet ways; directed
polarization and undirected polarization.
Directed polarization being made by some organizers (milonga,
festival-congress etc.) Close embrace Vs Salon
To create "choice" for people is good thing i believe, but this does
not mean negative behavior on the dance floor. good navigational
skills as a topic is a must for everyone who likes to dance tango
socially.
Burak "El Turco"
Minneapolis
www.tangoshusheta.com
an 6/13/05, Richard deSousa <mallpasso@aol.com> wrote:
> In a perfect world, this would be true, but I can tell you that here in
> the San Francisco Bay Area there are some tango dancers who don't
> observe Sergio's rule No. 2. More often than not, other dancers
> (milonguero style) have to adjust their styles to prevent collisions
> with fantasia style dancers.
>
> El Bandito de Tango
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Sent: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:48:48 +0000
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Conflicting tango styles
>
> Ron says:
>
> "The greatest potential for conflict that I see is when there are
> numerous fantasia style dancers at the milongas ".
>
> There are several elements to take into account:
>
> #1 - There are several tango styles, they are here to stay. They are
> different, one is not superior or inferior to any other. To dance one
> style
> is a personal choice that should be respected. Should you prefer to
> dance in
> a simple way (Tango liso) without any embellishments, just walking and
> doing
> a few ochos, this is fine. Should you like to dance traditional tango,
> with
> all the embellishments available, in close and open style this is fine
> as
> well. Should you prefer milonguero or nuevo, no objection either.
>
> #2 - Milonga codes must be followed because they are created to allow
> all
> participants to be able to dance without interference from other
> couples.
> These codes must be enforced by the organizers of the milonga. It is
> best to
> give general instructions so that nobody can take it personal.
> These general instructions should become more and more specific as
> needed.
>
> A good dancer never interferes with other couples, he should adjust
> his
> style to the space that is available at the time. He knows to dance in
> a
> very compact way, close embrace to dance on very crowded floors. He
> knows
> that he must follow the line of dance. He knows that he should not
> touch any
> other couple. He is able to use the available space without causing
> any
> disruption.
>
> The ones that disrupt are beginners or poor dancers, it does not
> matter what
> style of tango they cultivate. You could have, for example a Tango
> liso
> dancer that is very slow moving, fails to occupy the available space
> in
> front of him holding the line, etc, etc. A good fantasia dancer could
> say
> with the same authority as Ron's " one of the biggest problems at the
> milongas is when you have all those "liso dancers" that always are on
> you
> way and do not move.
>
> #3 - The milonga organizer should make sure everybody can dance
> without
> disruption.
> He has to enforce the milonga codes but at the same time he has to
> provide
> room and place for all the styles to be danced. This could mean that
> he has
> to rent a bigger floor or that he has to have certain times early or
> late to
> allow Tango Fantasia to be danced, or that he has to organize
> different
> milongas for different styles or that he has to lose all the Fantasia
> Tango
> dancers that eventually are going to organize their own milonga.
>
> The best dancers know how to have fun under any conditions. Remember *
> Good
> fantasia dancers, or nuevo, or Traditional tango dancers are able to
> dance
> without interfering with each other.
>
> Everything has to do with the amount of space available to dance and
> with
> knowing how to dance.
>
> Have a good day, Sergio.
>
> to
>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:15:51 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
I love dancing tango fantasia, and spend quite a bit of my time in Buenos
Aires dancing this way in practicas and with select partners and select
venues there. I also dance open embrace with certain partners - leading and
following. This way of dancing is great, but I firmly believe it is the
wrong way to start learning tango. I have great success starting people in
close embrace, because they can't so easily lead with their arms, or look at
their partner's feet - two signs of a badly taught "open embrace" leader.
Leaders who start in close embrace can start to feel the power of leading
with a strong torso, understand the importance of posture and feel the flow
of the dancefloor better. If "open embrace" leaders would spend more time in
close embrace they would not have to look at their partner's feet, and
wouldn't be such dangers on the dancefloor.
Of course, many people get addicted to that close embrace and have trouble
letting it go. :)
Bad tango is bad tango. I get quite an earful from local women, as I'm sure
other teachers do, who believe that we can fix every guy in town if we just
knew about their foibles. The followers depend on us to create good leaders,
and I take that responsibility very seriously. (I want good leaders, too!!)
The leaders who come to me for lessons don't get away with bad posture or
arm-leading just because they've only danced open embrace. The problem is,
more of them are afflicted and have a stronger habit. That gives them two
choices - lots of hard work to overcome it, or find partners who are not so
fussy. Too many choose the latter.
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis
> I see the only problem with Fantasia style is that it is
> taught more often than other styles by teachers who have no
> idea about lead and follow, about tango connection,
> alertness, and so forth. They train and their students dance
> exclusively a visual appeal of tango, memorized patterns
> without understanding its internal body roots. Of course,
> such dancers are not able to adjust quickly to the
> ever-changing situation. They are not able to minimize their
> movements preserving their internal feeling. They are not
> able to stop at the half-step. ( And they are not able to get
> as much pleasure too! )
>
> Well, the same can be said about any other style..
>
> As for milongas, it is simple. Keep feet on the floor, and
> they will not kick anybody. It really has nothing to do with
> a particular style. It is possible to dance wide and wild and
> careful at the same time.
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:41:49 -0500
From: Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
Wow Burak,
Yours is one of the best post that I have seen on this site. Being one
who enjoys both styles of milonguero style and salon I appreciate your
perspective.
On this list I see those that complain are usually those that only
prefer close embrace. I rarely ever have seen a posting of salon
dancers complaining about milonguero style.
Lets look at the practicality of mixing salon and milonguero on the
same floor. I was wondering if perhaps it is the limiting of vision on
the dance floor that perplexes those that enjoy close embrace. Salon
dancers will move, at times, faster and into available spaces more
quickly frustrating a milonguero who had his eye on the same area.
Milongueros can feel that they are always the ones having to avoid a
collision. Yet when i dance salon I am much more aware and in control
of where everyone is and able to move quickly enough to avoid any
collision appearing to come my way. Dancing salon I feel freedom more
expression with open mind and spirit. Dancing milonguero I feel more
passion, more seduction, more intimacy, more connected.
I actually hear a woman instructor tell her students that everyone must
dance in milongas only on the very outside of the dance floor. Never,
never pass always staying behind the couple in front of you. I have
been in milongas in a number of different cities where this has been so
ingrained in students minds that all the couples stay bunched up on 1/3
to 1/4th of the dance floor. Fearing if they pass they will be expelled
from the milongas forever. This may be great for milongueros but
frustrating for salon.
Her approach which may be one of those things that can be a good
guideline should not be a rule. It does solve the problem of a leader's
vision being cut off to the leaders right. If the couples heads are
placed side by side, you can never interfere or bump into someone if
you allow no one to ever be on your right.
Followers should be taught to be alert to that side but many followers
in close embrace dance with their eyes closed. In fact many times in
Milonguero style dancing I find myself with my eyes closed. (Not good
for navigation and I am not advocating it). But great for the feeling
of marrying music, partner and dance.
In milongas the only ones to bump into me have been those in close
embrace mostly beginners. But never am I bumped by someone in salon.
Could the problem of mixing salon and milonguero be mostly about
having a clear vision of the dance floor and the different styles
moving at different paces.
To solve this may be problematic.
Dancing salon I usually dance to the inside where leaders have as clear
a view of me as I have of them. Dancing Milonguero I dance to the
outside protecting myself and my partner from anyone coming from my
blind side.
Salon dancers should realize that milongueros have less vision and
don't want to be interrupted in feeling the dance. And milongueros
should realize that salon may be moving more quickly and expressing
themselves more openly. i recommend salon dancers learn at least some
milonguero style. It may be the only opportunity that you have to
safely dance when floors become crowded.
I personally like the option of adjusting between the two styles
depending on the music, my partner and the space available.
Each style has its advantages and limitations. To truly appreciate each
other I think we all should get to know and understand the likes and
limitations of both styles. Don't just get mad. Find out the real
reason you are mad. Coming to an understanding of one's self is the
first step to finding peace.
May your tango prosper,
Leonardo K.
On Jun 13, 2005, at 5:24 PM, el turco wrote:
> Polarization in Tango might be very dangerous.This problem mostly
> invented and endorsed by narrow -minded instructors-who is interested
> in keeping the control of tango in their towns, or communities.
> If the instructor tell the students which is good which bad
> subjectively, the polarization starts right there.
> Tango fantasia was everywehere starting with J.C. Copes and Gloria&
> Eduardo Arquimbau schools, from BsAs to US, Japan, Russia etc. a
> decade ago.
>
> What's different now?
> - more close embrace fans are around. Some of them are highly
> intoxicated by their opininated instructors or friends who suffered in
> BsAs milongas. They don't want to see other styles in the same dance
> floor because they think other style dancers causes problem in Ronda
> formation. Imagine everybody does ocho cortado's or gyros in same way.
> Since if you learned how to dance close embrace the different ways of
> doing the same move is quite a bit limited. Therefore, you will see an
> uniformed dance floor. Which might be so satisfying some people, this
> makes me sad. (sorry, but no offense)
>
> - the polarization is going on in two differet ways; directed
> polarization and undirected polarization.
> Directed polarization being made by some organizers (milonga,
> festival-congress etc.) Close embrace Vs Salon
>
>
> To create "choice" for people is good thing i believe, but this does
> not mean negative behavior on the dance floor. good navigational
> skills as a topic is a must for everyone who likes to dance tango
> socially.
>
>
> Burak "El Turco"
> Minneapolis
> www.tangoshusheta.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:10:07 +0200
From: hotmail <Peter_Jouliard@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
"Yet when i dance salon I am much more aware and in control
of where everyone is and able to move quickly enough to avoid any
collision appearing to come my way"
That's the way i drive my motor bike in Paris. Apparently drivers in cars
do not really appreciate it. but I have fun. they do not. they may have
limited vision
as well. who knows.
peter jouliard
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Conflicting tango styles
> Wow Burak,
> Yours is one of the best post that I have seen on this site. Being one
> who enjoys both styles of milonguero style and salon I appreciate your
> perspective.
>
> On this list I see those that complain are usually those that only
> prefer close embrace. I rarely ever have seen a posting of salon
> dancers complaining about milonguero style.
>
> Lets look at the practicality of mixing salon and milonguero on the
> same floor. I was wondering if perhaps it is the limiting of vision on
> the dance floor that perplexes those that enjoy close embrace. Salon
> dancers will move, at times, faster and into available spaces more
> quickly frustrating a milonguero who had his eye on the same area.
> Milongueros can feel that they are always the ones having to avoid a
> collision. Yet when i dance salon I am much more aware and in control
> of where everyone is and able to move quickly enough to avoid any
> collision appearing to come my way. Dancing salon I feel freedom more
> expression with open mind and spirit. Dancing milonguero I feel more
> passion, more seduction, more intimacy, more connected.
>
> I actually hear a woman instructor tell her students that everyone must
> dance in milongas only on the very outside of the dance floor. Never,
> never pass always staying behind the couple in front of you. I have
> been in milongas in a number of different cities where this has been so
> ingrained in students minds that all the couples stay bunched up on 1/3
> to 1/4th of the dance floor. Fearing if they pass they will be expelled
> from the milongas forever. This may be great for milongueros but
> frustrating for salon.
>
> Her approach which may be one of those things that can be a good
> guideline should not be a rule. It does solve the problem of a leader's
> vision being cut off to the leaders right. If the couples heads are
> placed side by side, you can never interfere or bump into someone if
> you allow no one to ever be on your right.
>
> Followers should be taught to be alert to that side but many followers
> in close embrace dance with their eyes closed. In fact many times in
> Milonguero style dancing I find myself with my eyes closed. (Not good
> for navigation and I am not advocating it). But great for the feeling
> of marrying music, partner and dance.
>
> In milongas the only ones to bump into me have been those in close
> embrace mostly beginners. But never am I bumped by someone in salon.
> Could the problem of mixing salon and milonguero be mostly about
> having a clear vision of the dance floor and the different styles
> moving at different paces.
>
> To solve this may be problematic.
> Dancing salon I usually dance to the inside where leaders have as clear
> a view of me as I have of them. Dancing Milonguero I dance to the
> outside protecting myself and my partner from anyone coming from my
> blind side.
> Salon dancers should realize that milongueros have less vision and
> don't want to be interrupted in feeling the dance. And milongueros
> should realize that salon may be moving more quickly and expressing
> themselves more openly. i recommend salon dancers learn at least some
> milonguero style. It may be the only opportunity that you have to
> safely dance when floors become crowded.
>
> I personally like the option of adjusting between the two styles
> depending on the music, my partner and the space available.
>
> Each style has its advantages and limitations. To truly appreciate each
> other I think we all should get to know and understand the likes and
> limitations of both styles. Don't just get mad. Find out the real
> reason you are mad. Coming to an understanding of one's self is the
> first step to finding peace.
>
> May your tango prosper,
> Leonardo K.
>
>
> On Jun 13, 2005, at 5:24 PM, el turco wrote:
>
> > Polarization in Tango might be very dangerous.This problem mostly
> > invented and endorsed by narrow -minded instructors-who is interested
> > in keeping the control of tango in their towns, or communities.
> > If the instructor tell the students which is good which bad
> > subjectively, the polarization starts right there.
> > Tango fantasia was everywehere starting with J.C. Copes and Gloria&
> > Eduardo Arquimbau schools, from BsAs to US, Japan, Russia etc. a
> > decade ago.
> >
> > What's different now?
> > - more close embrace fans are around. Some of them are highly
> > intoxicated by their opininated instructors or friends who suffered in
> > BsAs milongas. They don't want to see other styles in the same dance
> > floor because they think other style dancers causes problem in Ronda
> > formation. Imagine everybody does ocho cortado's or gyros in same way.
> > Since if you learned how to dance close embrace the different ways of
> > doing the same move is quite a bit limited. Therefore, you will see an
> > uniformed dance floor. Which might be so satisfying some people, this
> > makes me sad. (sorry, but no offense)
> >
> > - the polarization is going on in two differet ways; directed
> > polarization and undirected polarization.
> > Directed polarization being made by some organizers (milonga,
> > festival-congress etc.) Close embrace Vs Salon
> >
> >
> > To create "choice" for people is good thing i believe, but this does
> > not mean negative behavior on the dance floor. good navigational
> > skills as a topic is a must for everyone who likes to dance tango
> > socially.
> >
> >
> > Burak "El Turco"
> > Minneapolis
> > www.tangoshusheta.com
>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:46:08 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM> writes:
> Lets look at the practicality of mixing salon and milonguero on the
> same floor. I was wondering if perhaps it is the limiting of vision on
> the dance floor that perplexes those that enjoy close embrace.
Nope. A good dancer of any style has no
problem keeping track of reasonably predictable
floor movement.
> Salon dancers will move, at times, faster and into
> available spaces more quickly frustrating a milonguero
> who had his eye on the same area.
Well you've unwittingly said it all right
there. In a crowded milonga (obviously things
change on a sparse floor), space doesn't belong to
whichever macho speedster races to it first--it
belongs to the leader in that lane directly behind
that space in the line of dance.
Unless this person reneges on his responsibity
and fails to take up the space (by, for example,
selfishly doing circular figures over and over, or
just sitting there playing endless footsie games,
oblivious to the floor while people start to pile
up behind him), as that space opens up it belongs
to him to move into as he progresses forward down
the line of dance.
If somebody else, no matter what style he is
dancing, "moves faster" and takes that space, the
only way he did it was either by passing, dancing
backwards against the line of dance, or by zig-zagging
across different lanes, all three of which are
extremely rude on a crowded floor if done as a matter
of course (and not in defensive response to somebody
just sitting still endlessly as discussed above,
which occasionally happens to us all).
By only taking space in front of us instead
of anywhere the heck we see it, and just as important,
by conversely not failing to take up that space in
front of us reasonably quickly as it opens up, we
create an orderly pista with an atmosphere of unity,
predictability, and cooperation as opposed to
a chaotic free-for-all in which each man selfishly
tries to grab whatever he can get for himself.
Many of us are capable of doing fast, fancy figures
that travel quickly across an open floor, and we do so
on a sparse floor when it doesn't infringe upon the
enjoyment of others; but if we all were to attempt to
indulge ourselves with that kinf of stuff on a crowded
floor, most of us would be miserable. By toning down
our magnificent vast repertoires (sarcasm here, it often
needs to be explicitly labelled as such on this list),
and using smaller, more social moves, and cooperating
with our fellow dancers, everyone can dance and have
a good time.
Huck
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:40:55 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <CRojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
Huck,
Nicely said, another big factor that affects line of dancing that I have
observed, is that many leaders think that in order to dance they have to
move forward, I think we have to make an effort to learn to dance in place,
and respect the distance with the couple in front of us, that way the couple
in front can dance and so can we.
Learning to dance in place is something that not only us (foreigners) need
to learn, many Argentine dancers also need to learn it, but it takes time
and practice. As we have experienced, sometimes the line of dancing does
not move, or the guy in front decides to stay in place for a while, whatever
the reason, dancing in place allows us to stay cool and keep enjoying the
dance.
As my yoga instructor says: "Don't let anyone steal your peace"
Carlos Rojas
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 8:46 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Conflicting tango styles
Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM> writes:
> Lets look at the practicality of mixing salon and milonguero on the
> same floor. I was wondering if perhaps it is the limiting of vision on
> the dance floor that perplexes those that enjoy close embrace.
Nope. A good dancer of any style has no
problem keeping track of reasonably predictable
floor movement.
> Salon dancers will move, at times, faster and into
> available spaces more quickly frustrating a milonguero
> who had his eye on the same area.
Well you've unwittingly said it all right
there. In a crowded milonga (obviously things
change on a sparse floor), space doesn't belong to
whichever macho speedster races to it first--it
belongs to the leader in that lane directly behind
that space in the line of dance.
Unless this person reneges on his responsibity
and fails to take up the space (by, for example,
selfishly doing circular figures over and over, or
just sitting there playing endless footsie games,
oblivious to the floor while people start to pile
up behind him), as that space opens up it belongs
to him to move into as he progresses forward down
the line of dance.
If somebody else, no matter what style he is
dancing, "moves faster" and takes that space, the
only way he did it was either by passing, dancing
backwards against the line of dance, or by zig-zagging
across different lanes, all three of which are
extremely rude on a crowded floor if done as a matter
of course (and not in defensive response to somebody
just sitting still endlessly as discussed above,
which occasionally happens to us all).
By only taking space in front of us instead
of anywhere the heck we see it, and just as important,
by conversely not failing to take up that space in
front of us reasonably quickly as it opens up, we
create an orderly pista with an atmosphere of unity,
predictability, and cooperation as opposed to
a chaotic free-for-all in which each man selfishly
tries to grab whatever he can get for himself.
Many of us are capable of doing fast, fancy figures
that travel quickly across an open floor, and we do so
on a sparse floor when it doesn't infringe upon the
enjoyment of others; but if we all were to attempt to
indulge ourselves with that kinf of stuff on a crowded
floor, most of us would be miserable. By toning down
our magnificent vast repertoires (sarcasm here, it often
needs to be explicitly labelled as such on this list),
and using smaller, more social moves, and cooperating
with our fellow dancers, everyone can dance and have
a good time.
Huck
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:50:54 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Conflicting tango styles
1.
I think that there is even more important thing that keeping up with the
line of dance - it is maintaining the line of dance "as close to the edge as
possible".
Practically nobody dances as close as possible. In most cases, there is
enough room to bypass a couple ON THE RIGHT SIDE, which I often do. Sorry.
One just have to set up his mind "I am stepping as close to the edge as
possible, I am!".
If one can.
You have to find pleasure in it. It means finding pleasure in dancing in
strict line.
I do not think that this advice will work, even noticed. It looks like small
floors and over-crowded milongas work better then ideology.
2. I can dance compact and I like it. But it seem to me that most of
correspondents here declared a war against "wide and wild" dancing. This is
not good. Of course, if we are talking about beginners, that is another
matter, but I do not see emphasis on that.
In my practice I have found that a couple standing still on one place is
more of the obstacle that a wild fast moving experienced couple. We all have
to move. Here and there. Making a space for everybody around. Than a way to
progress will be found easier.
And most problems are created by people who rigidly dance 8 count the way it
is taught by most teachers. Beginners. They blindly step back ( invading
somebody's space ) than side ( again invading somebody's space and moving
away from the edge, so the whole room becomes smaller), and so on.
3. Why to progress. Most people think that it is some sort of a rule. No. It
is fun.
Many tango moves are done in line. In the strict line. And that is fun.
Rotational movements become richer and more satisfying if they are done
progressing in a direction. It is more fun, not some sort of rule. It is
pretty difficult. Comparable is only dancing on one spot the whole dance -
dancing on a square when you even do not have space for 8-count.
Again it all comes not to the rules and "etiquette" but to the level of
dancing. It all happens naturally. Good dancers do not have any problems.
4. I like to see the dancing floor as a collective of dance partners. We are
all dance partners and dancing together in one huge connection. So the
relation to other couples can be similar to the relation within a couple.
Dance floor is a dancing organism. We should "feel" other couples, their
bodies and legs. We should establish connection with them the way we
establish connection with a partner. No connection, no dance.
Igor Polk
PS. My last message was not published for some reason. If this message also
is not published, please, forgive me for posting it again.
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:37:48 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
Carlos Rojas wrote:
>...move forward, I think we have to make an effort to learn to
> dance in place...
Dancing is heavenly.
Pausing, at the right moments, divine.
Just don't hold up the line for too long. ;-)
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:16:09 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <CRojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
Tanguero Chino wrote:
"Just don't hold up the line for too long. ;-)"
At El Beso en BA, there are a couple of corners in the dance floor where
most couples enter the dance floor, sometimes there are so many people
trying to enter the dance floor that it takes almost an entire song,
sometimes one is unlucky to be right behind, then what does one do?
My point is that it is not necessary to move forward to dance, I think we
should be teaching this concept, I think it will reduce collisions and
problems in a crowded dance floor.
Carlos Rojas
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Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:26:09 -0500
From: Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Conflicting tango styles
Thanks for an interesting series of statements concerning different styles.
As a middle-of-the-road sort of dancer, prefering the close embrace, I spend
more effort avoiding salon dancers on the floor than listening to my partner
or the music.
Sometimes, I give up and watch the bull-fight from the seats at the sides of
the dance floor.
There are a couple of salon-style leaders who have a characteristic backward
plunge of up to 10 feet, often right into me or my partner. It would be
inconsiderate of me to even think of 'filling in the space' behind these
leaders - my partner would be stepped on for sure.
Live and let live, sure. It is just a dance. But I consider leaving tango
for a different dance form at times in part because of these salon dancer
who think they are sooo damn good.
Gibson
Minneapolis
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:04:42 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <CRojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
Gibson Batch wrote:
"There are a couple of salon-style leaders who have a characteristic
backward plunge of up to 10 feet, often right into me or my partner."
We have 1 in Portland as well, and for what I seen, they are everywhere,
including BA. Sometimes we have to practice "defensive driving", I usually
put my arm/hand out before they run into me, and it usually works.
Good luck
Carlos Rojas
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:01:49 +0200
From: hotmail <Peter_Jouliard@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
assuming these dancers, that jump into empty space before other dancers, zig-zag, do a backward plunge, block the other dancers
standing at a place, turning forever on spot or doing elaborate figures on the spot, etc.are NOT
aware that they are making dance difficult, miserable, a bad experience for other dancers, then how can they be made
aware of it? It is a know problem, so talking may not help much.
if they are aware of it and do not care(what they are getting out of it is too important), then it is a social/psychological issue not a
dance/tango issue per se. Still, how would one try to influence it, if at all?
peter jouliard
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:16:06 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
Hello everybody,
I wonder if it is a common practice for the follower
to apply an urgent squeeze the leader's shoulder when
she sees a collision coming. Rather like you would use
a quick squeeze or gentle pinch stop a friend from
crossing the street if there's oncoming traffic. If
the leader can be made to freeze or prevented from
taking a step backward or on the blind side, a
collision can often be averted. Sometimes it's the
third party who is set on a collision course. In any
case, I do this all the time and I find that leaders
are often very appreciative of your looking out for
both of you.
Recently I have been doing a lot of leading myself but
I have yet to experience this kind of assistance from
the followers I've danced with.
Thanks
Tine
--- Carlos Rojas <CRojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG> wrote:
> Gibson Batch wrote:
> "There are a couple of salon-style leaders who have
> a characteristic
> backward plunge of up to 10 feet, often right into
> me or my partner."
>
> We have 1 in Portland as well, and for what I seen,
> they are everywhere,
> including BA. Sometimes we have to practice
> "defensive driving", I usually
> put my arm/hand out before they run into me, and it
> usually works.
>
> Good luck
>
> Carlos Rojas
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
************************
Tango Club at Yale
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Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:52:58 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
Yale Tango Club wrote:
>Hello everybody,
>I wonder if it is a common practice for the follower
>to apply an urgent squeeze the leader's shoulder when
>she sees a collision coming. .....
Good news and bad news
The good news is that, YES, it sure helps.
The bad news, it means the follower does not have her eyes closed, so is not achieving the Tango Zen state. :-(
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:21:49 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
Carlos Rojas asked:
"At El Beso en BA, there are a couple of corners in the dance floor where
most couples enter the dance floor, sometimes there are so many people
trying to enter the dance floor that it takes almost an entire song,
sometimes one is unlucky to be right behind, then what does one do?"
The El Beso navigational problem is solved simply: since it happens in the
beginning of the tanda the middle of the floor is fairly empty so if you
wish to progress you simply move into the second lane. However if you dance
at Wednesday matinee in Salon Canning where by the third song of the tanda
couples progress approximately one meter per minute because it's so crowded
(the most tightly packed yet orderly milonga I have ever been to) - now
there you really need to hone your turns-on-the-spot skills.
Cheers, Oleh Kovalchuke, El Ucraniano
https://TangoSpring.com
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Conflicting tango styles
https://TangoSpring.com
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Conflicting tango styles
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:19:24 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
> Hello everybody,
> I wonder if it is a common practice for the follower
> to apply an urgent squeeze the leader's shoulder
> when she sees a collision coming.
...
> Recently I have been doing a lot of leading myself
> but I have yet to experience this kind of assistance
> from the followers I've danced with.
It is common - and if the follower is strong enough
and quick enough she may simply refuse to step into
the space where trouble is about to occur. She may
also actually take over the lead for the second it
takes to move the leader in a different direction.
Note: At no time have I said that this will _not_
cause trouble with leaders who are disconcerted by
temporary interruptions in the normal lead-follow
relationship.
Maybe your leading is good enough that the followers
don't have to help you! ;-) I find in leading that
there is also a less urgent signal - a little
stiffness, or blip in the follower's attention, that
means that something is not quite right - and I
usually try to see if I can figure out what's going
on, just in case. It often is one of the local repeat
offenders crawling up our tails. Of course, sometimes
it is just that she has seen someone she would rather
dance with and she is busy making eye contact. Or
looking at herself in the mirror.....
Marisa
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Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out!
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:01:24 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
Wait a second - now you're asking the followers to fix this?
First of all, if a follower has to watch out for the leader, he's not doing
his job, and certainly not giving the follower a good dance.
Also, it was suggested that followers not accept dances with leaders who do
not have good floorcraft. Great idea, but it doesn't work. Let's say a good
follower turns down a leader because he doesn't keep her safe. Of course
this guy is a teacher (and of course he yells at all the other teachers in
town for not teaching floorcraft!) Who is actually suffering? This leader
can still get lots of people to dance with him - there are just as many
women who prefer the "show-off" aspect of tango to other aspects. But this
leader can ruin the reputation of that follower. She can also be blacklisted
by students of this leader. She may even be blamed for contributing to rifts
in the community.
I always tell my students and other followers that they never have to accept
a dance with a leader, for whatever reason they choose. However, since I saw
the above happen, I now add a caveat - there may be consequences. Men who
would defend to the death a follower's right to protect herself, get mighty
hurt and indignant when they are on the receiving end of the rejection.
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:03:09 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
--- Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU> wrote:
> By only taking space in front of us instead
> of anywhere the heck we see it, and just as
> important,
> by conversely not failing to take up that space in
> front of us reasonably quickly as it opens up, we
> create an orderly pista with an atmosphere of unity,
> predictability, and cooperation as opposed to
> a chaotic free-for-all in which each man selfishly
> tries to grab whatever he can get for himself.
I've read this thread as far as it's gone, and I come
back to Huck's comment. We need to move only into our
space - but we do need to move into it. I know we
often hear complaints about the leader who rushes
around the room, but there is also a problem with the
leader who stays in one place. And I mean the close
embrace dancer who noodles around in one place doing
little jigs and jogs to enjoy the rhythmic
possibilities of the music AND the open embrace guy
who whips off big florid turns with sacadas and boleos
to enjoy the dramatic possibilities of the music.
Somebody (Sean?) has suggested that three leaders
working together can control the flow of movement on
the floor. I see evidence every week that two
leaders, working separately, can virtually stop the
flow of movement on the floor, and that in a place
which is not crowded. I think that dancing in a tight
space or in a temporarily stopped ronda is an
excellent skill and one that it's good to practice.
But on a dance floor which is _not_ crowded, there is
no reason at all to create - or to attempt to enforce
- a ronda that barely moves.
I am satisfied to dance small and tight on a crowded
floor - especially with rhythmic music that encourages
playing with little weight changes, rocks, etc. But
when the floor is half empty and a big flowing waltz
is playing, I would like to be able to travel around
the room - and not find some self-righteous "small is
best" plodder or some self-impressed "look at me"
exhibitionist holding up the ronda. Social tango is a
walking dance - in the name of all that is holy, Walk!
Marisa
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:36:22 -0400
From: jhapark@PENNSWOODS.NET
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
<<I always tell my students and other followers that they never have to
accept
a dance with a leader, for whatever reason they choose. However, since I saw
the above happen, I now add a caveat - there may be consequences. Men who
would defend to the death a follower's right to protect herself, get mighty
hurt and indignant when they are on the receiving end of the rejection.>>
LOL! For a minute, I thought you were talking about relationships not
tango...
-J
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
Wait a second - now you're asking the followers to fix this?
First of all, if a follower has to watch out for the leader, he's not doing
his job, and certainly not giving the follower a good dance.
Also, it was suggested that followers not accept dances with leaders who do
not have good floorcraft. Great idea, but it doesn't work. Let's say a good
follower turns down a leader because he doesn't keep her safe. Of course
this guy is a teacher (and of course he yells at all the other teachers in
town for not teaching floorcraft!) Who is actually suffering? This leader
can still get lots of people to dance with him - there are just as many
women who prefer the "show-off" aspect of tango to other aspects. But this
leader can ruin the reputation of that follower. She can also be blacklisted
by students of this leader. She may even be blamed for contributing to rifts
in the community.
I always tell my students and other followers that they never have to accept
a dance with a leader, for whatever reason they choose. However, since I saw
the above happen, I now add a caveat - there may be consequences. Men who
would defend to the death a follower's right to protect herself, get mighty
hurt and indignant when they are on the receiving end of the rejection.
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:35:29 -0500
From: Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
It is unfortunate but we always remember that one offender but forget
the 50 to 200 who are managing the floors well. For all of the rhetoric
here on this site the grievous offenders are probably not a part of
this list and will never be influenced by the advice here.
I will often move and give ground to someone who appears out of control
to avoid collisions and I am sure that others do the same. But then the
offender never gets the message. To relay the message they should rein
in their dance I have used on a few occasions a technique of allowing
the impact. I used this technique on another teacher once who was
always self absorbed in his dance. Instead of moving out of the way
allowing him to have his way, I turned my partner away to protect her
and then braced for impact. It took two times but he got the message
and from that time on he always avoided me.
My concern with this topic is that many teachers have become so
paranoid about offending someone else on the dance floor their students
are becoming introverted in their dance.
The most common thing I deal with people coming to privates lessons is
simply a loss of confidence.
1. Women have had stupid leaders be verbally critical to them. The
result is the follower losing confidence, becoming tense, technique may
alter and then the problems with the dance escalate. The easiest fix
may entail some technique adjustment but is usually just teaching them
to relax under the circumstances. Remain confident. Women should
always realize any leader who resorts to verbal instruction and
criticism is admitting without knowing it that he is still a beginner.
2. Or men who are afraid to step out on the floor because they fear
getting in someone's way. So much talk is being discussed about those
very few offenders that polarization occurs and skills in navigation
deteriorate because of lack of intent and courage.
Dancers should be confidence in their dance. Never be intimidated by
anyone whatever their skill level. For that moment you own that real
estate and it is for you to use as you see fit. In dealing with
adjacent real estate, be respectful, in control yet never intimidated.
I have a formula for success in all endeavors which I feel applies also
to tango.
To succeed you need all 4 of these elements:
1. vision
2. intention
3. means
4. courage
If any one of these is missing then failure will occur.
For tango:
Vision - A plan of how you will dance and interact with your partner
and the music.
Intention - The inter drive to want to step out onto the dance floor
and move with clear leads.
The Means - Have developing skills and then available space, music, and
an agreeable partner.
Courage - Having the confidence in yourself, allowing yourself to make
a mistake, being unconcerned with small minds that may criticize.
May your tango prosper,
Leonardo K.
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:29:58 -0600
From: Chas Gale <hotchango@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
---Leonard wrote---
"""For all of the rhetoric here on this site the grievous offenders are
probably not a part of this list and will never be influenced by the
advice here."""
Not true. 2 such individuals have contributed to this tread in the last
48 hours (one more than once). Each would defend themselves by saying
proudly, "I never run into anyone". And that's largely true. But if you
were a fly on the ceiling you would notice a dead zone around these guys
like ground zero. With their aggressive, busy style they commandeer more
space then they are due. Our willingness to give them a wider birth
doesn't solve the problem of having to watch out for them in the first
place, thereby tainting our tango experience.
It's like Peter in Paris zipping around on his motorcycle: He has fun
but everyone around him feels threatened.
Chas "You're in my space!" Gale
https://www.thetangohouse.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:29:19 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
I think I often dance wild %) . It depends on the partner ( first of all ),
on the music, on the mood,... I just hope I am dancing pretty careful.
Here in San Francisco there is a couple with whom I had collided many times.
Even on empty floor. It is hard to believe but they are practically only
couple I had collided with. Now they are avoiding me, just run away from me
keeping not less than 30 feet ( 10 meters ) distance.
I wonder why? Why it happened between our couples only?
Igor Polk
PS.
And if YOU do not move to that empty space in front of you, I WILL!
That supposed to be a joke :)
.
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:55:46 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
I have to make a little clarification here.
There are 2 kinds of collision.
1. When a couple makes senselessly a lot ganchos, high boleos, back sacadas,
and so forth colliding with them is very dangerous. One will get a kick!
2. If you do elements carefully, I would say controllable, ladies keep feet
on the ground during boleos, keep higher level of tension in the free leg to
restrain the flying moves ( it is felt goooood!) - there is nothing too bad
about the collisions, you just get a push, or a click with heels (Cool!).
This is it. It happens!
I hope I have made the difference I am talking about clear?
Igor Polk
I can tell you, there are ladies whose flying legs are so controllable, they
actually sense the object of collision, and stop the leg with the minimal
impact. Aren't they Masters?
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:04:55 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Conflicting tango styles
Marisa Holmes writes:
> I am satisfied to dance small and tight on a crowded
> floor - especially with rhythmic music that encourages
> playing with little weight changes, rocks, etc. But
> when the floor is half empty and a big flowing waltz
> is playing, I would like to be able to travel around
> the room - and not find some self-righteous "small is
> best" plodder or some self-impressed "look at me"
> exhibitionist holding up the ronda. Social tango is a
> walking dance - in the name of all that is holy, Walk!
Yes, tell it, sister!
A lot of this boils down to some people only
knowing how to dance everything the same. The rank
beginner will even try to dance his one and only
tango to milonga music! Fortunately this is one of
the first things he figures out, that milonga is
different, but alas, even many people who have been
dancing several years will still dance the same to
a tango and a waltz, never mind actually
differentiating between a D'Arienzo and a Pugliese.
Now the following is only my opinion (and
evidently yours too!), but many Argentines I've met
share it as well. A waltz should evoke the feel of
a carousel. Do the horses ever stop on a carousel?
No, they don't, and neither should the dancers in
a waltz ronda. So anything that stops dead and just
sits there, like playing footsie or let's cuddle
awhile, should be absolutely taboo to the experienced
waltz dancer. Save that stuff for later.
The whole idea of waltz is continuous, flowing
movement. If you do have to stop because you can't
move forward, then it is far better to do nice
flowing giros than something inane like just stop
and invite your partner to shine her shoe on your leg.
I should add that it is possible to do certain
things normally associated with stopping, like paradas,
mordidas, and frenos, in waltz, but the stop has to be
a mere one-or-two beat pause, in time with the music,
that almost gets overrun by surrounding movement on
either end. Julio teaches a nice sequence with
a flowing, one-beat morida, and Pablo Veron offers one
that contains a barely perceptable freno that just
gets overrun with the movement before you even realize
it's happened. But both of these are a bit more open
and, as such, are done on a more open floor.
On a very crowded floor, obviously everything has
to be more compact and you can't flow as much as you'd
like, but you can still strive for the feeling as best
you can, and try to eliminate outright dead-stop behavior.
Huck
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:22:21 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Incomplete Education [was conflicting tango styles]
Huck Kennedy writes:
>A lot of this boils down to some people only
>knowing how to dance everything the same.
Some of this owes to beginners taking to the floor with a limited
knowledge of tango.
As Huck points out:
>The rank beginner will even try to dance
>his one and only tango to milonga music!
Particularly if the beginner's instructor has been teaching tango,
encourages attendance at a milonga, and hasn't said anything about dancing
milonga!
But much of it owes to people who really shouldn't be beginners, but have
an incomplete education in tango.
There are three principal methods for teaching Argentine tango: step
patterns, small elements, structural systems
In learning to play jazz music, there are analagous pedagogical concepts:
step patterns = memorized pieces of music
small elements = short phrases
structural systems = scales and chord progressions
No one learning to play jazz would even expect to develop sufficient skill
in playing jazz by learning only to play memorized pieces of music, short
phrases or scales and chord progressions. They learn all three. In
tango, however, most dancers develop most of their knowledge through only
one of the three principal teaching approaches.
To overgeneralize, step patterns are most frequently used to teach salon-
and fantasia-style tango; small elements are most frequently used to teach
milonguero-style tango, and a structural system is most frequently used to
teach nuevo-style tango.
What is the consequence? To continue with the over-generalization, the
poorly educated salon style dancers try to improvise by using the various
patterns they have learned and find trouble with navigation and rhythm.
The poorly educated milonguero-style dancers have good navigational skills
and are free to express the rhythm, but the dancing lacks any sense of
composition or style. It's just noodling The poorly educated nuevo
dancers are busy pursuing the movement variations in their system whether
it fits the available space or rhythm of the music. None of these dancers
really has the skill for expression--self, musical or any other kind.
Of course with persistent work, some individuals will break through the
limitations of the method by which they learned tango, but it is much
easier to actually learn by pursuing all three methods of instruction.
With best regards,
Steve
syncopations).
Cheers, Oleh K., El Ucraniano
https://TangoSpring.com
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Incomplete Education [was conflicting tango styles]
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:11:35 -0700
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
--- Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM> wrote:
> It is unfortunate but we always remember that one offender but
> forget the 50 to 200 who are managing the floors well.
There is a good reason for this. It only takes a few offenders
en la pista to make life miserable for everyone.
> For all of the rhetoric
> here on this site the grievous offenders are probably not a
> part of
> this list and will never be influenced by the advice here.
I think one or two may be lurking. :-)
> I will often move and give ground to someone who appears out
> of control
> to avoid collisions and I am sure that others do the same. But
> then the
> offender never gets the message.
During a class with Hugo and Miriam, I once yanked my partner
and I back vigorously to prevent us being slammed into by a
tall, reckless leader. Miriam saw it, and corrected me. "No,
then he will never learn. Let the collision take place."
> To relay the message [that] they should rein
> in their dance I have used on a few occasions a technique of
> allowing the impact.
I have learned something quite interesting about incentives, and
"effective knowledge", as defined by Dr. Thomas Sowell
(Knowledge and Decisions), from dealing with this problem.
When I can see one of these selfish dancers barrelling toward
me, and have time to rotate my partner and I so that my left arm
and elbow are sharply pointed towards the idiot, the collision
simply doesn't take place. Frankly, I don't completely
understand the mechanics, since a good part of the time, they
are backing towards me.
Clearly, they know when they are about to run into people, but
they simply Don't Care. Once I give them a reason to care, an
Incentive, they change their behavior.
It has a somewhat lingering effect, too. The offender usually
appears more circumspect in his motion when I see him again in
the ronda.
Although they "know" what they are doing is causing problems for
other people, this is not "effective knowledge" [op. cit.]
> I used this technique on another teacher once who
> was
> always self absorbed in his dance. Instead of moving out of
> the way
> allowing him to have his way, I turned my partner away to
> protect her
> and then braced for impact. It took two times but he got the
> message
> and from that time on he always avoided me.
Ditto.
> My concern with this topic is that many teachers have become
> so
> paranoid about offending someone else on the dance floor their
> students
> are becoming introverted in their dance.
There are some teachers with a bit firmer constitution.
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:45:57 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
There is little more offensive than sticking an elbow out, Ramiro!
Please, do not do it !
This is a sign of ignorance and of poor ability to lead. It looks bad and
reveals that you are not able to handle the situation.
This is a sign of a week leader!
You are arrogantly offensive, not proactive as a leader should be.
When I feel the collision, which happens rare, but with everybody, I am
sure, I always, try to soften it, to make it feel like a friendly touch,
cushion the effect. Sort of a tango element possible between different
couples. I believe this is the right approach.
Unfortunately, most accidents are caused by a flying foot. Are you going to
try damage a sensitive lady's little foot with your sticking out elbow?
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:03:36 -0400
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
I agree completely - WITH RAMIRO. Leaders need to be aware of where they are
going. Sometimes, they pay attention ONLY to what they are doing. The first
rule of dancing for the leader is to protect the partner. Stopping a runaway
leader, with an outstretched elbow, is an excellent way to get the attention
of an errant leader. Why should the leader absorb the force of a collision,
possibly sending his partner off her balance?
I understand the concept of "defensive driving" on the highway. "Defensive
dancing" is not always possible, especially when a careless leader
encroaches on somebody else's space.
After a leader gets poked in the ribs, he learns very quickly to pay
attention to where he is going, especially when moving backwards. Some
people think that for the price of admission, they bought ALL the real
estate on the dance floor. WRONG!!!
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Enjoyed "Las Chantas" last night in Annapolis, MD and will
hear them again at the NY Tango Festival (www.celebratetango.com)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 1:45 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
> There is little more offensive than sticking an elbow out, Ramiro!
> Please, do not do it !
>
> Igor Polk
>
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:13:59 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
Oh, we have more than one ( I new it! ) proponent of elbow-boxing!
When you stick out your elbow, you can hit a lady. If a couple moves in a
wrong direction crossing your way, it is most likely because they do not see
you, or they are thrown of balance by some other reason. If they can not see
you, why do you think they see your elbow?
But if they noticed it, they will avoid you, not because they have learned
better ways of navigation, but because they think you are a freak, an idiot
better be avoided!
I just came back from a horse riding. The instructor told me that everybody
falls from horses, and there are all sorts of strange reasons for that from
getting scared of something to over-relaxation and fatigue, sometimes even a
little object can cause a horse to stumble.
So, if fall is unavoidable, it has to be learned how to deal with the
situation. I mean learn how to avoid collision, how to soften it, causing
less, not more damage.
All of you, macho guys, why you are so sure, that you will not get a kick
back in return?
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:57:07 -0400
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
Igor:
You need to pay attention. I don't dance with my elbow out. I only put it
out WHEN I see a leader getting ready to step into me. I read Ramiro's post
to mean he only puts it out when necessary, it's not always out there. I
didn't write that the errant leader, seeing my elbow, will avoid the
collision. I wrote that after the errant leader backs up into my elbow, he
will realize he shouldn't be where he doesn't belong.
If I see a follower getting ready to collide, I do my best to adjust my
position and let her run into my back. It's not her fault her leader dances
like a blind man.
As for horses, I've NEVER been thrown from one.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
AHH! It's been so many years since I've ridden a horse at summer camp in the
Adirondack Mountains of New York.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 6:13 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
> Oh, we have more than one ( I new it! ) proponent of elbow-boxing!
>
> When you stick out your elbow, you can hit a lady. If a couple moves in a
> wrong direction crossing your way, it is most likely because they do not
see
> you, or they are thrown of balance by some other reason. If they can not
see
> you, why do you think they see your elbow?
>
> But if they noticed it, they will avoid you, not because they have learned
> better ways of navigation, but because they think you are a freak, an
idiot
> better be avoided!
>
> I just came back from a horse riding. The instructor told me that
everybody
> falls from horses, and there are all sorts of strange reasons for that
from
> getting scared of something to over-relaxation and fatigue, sometimes even
a
> little object can cause a horse to stumble.
>
> So, if fall is unavoidable, it has to be learned how to deal with the
> situation. I mean learn how to avoid collision, how to soften it, causing
> less, not more damage.
>
> All of you, macho guys, why you are so sure, that you will not get a kick
> back in return?
>
> Igor Polk
>
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:24:45 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
I see..
I am reading a little book "The Tao of Tango". My previous letters were
written by my male energy (It shows). Now here is one inspired by my female
energy (I hope).
Would you stick out your elbow, if you are invited to a private party where
everybody are your friends?
Probably you say "No".
So, what difference does that make with any other tango party?
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:29:17 -0700
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> wrote:
...
> When you stick out your elbow, you can hit a lady.
This is not correct. I have never aimed my elbow at a woman, and
I have never collided with a woman that way. In fact, they are
softer and more compressible than the men. Being run into by
woman would be no great hardship. Well, most women, anyway. A
collision with a denser, more massive man is significantly more
unpleasant.
> If a couple moves in a
> wrong direction crossing your way, it is most likely because
> they do not see
> you, or they are thrown of balance by some other reason.
You don't know why they behave the way they do. You are
inventing things here.
Behavior is objective, observable, and provable. Motives are
pure speculation.
> If they can not see
> you, why do you think they see your elbow?
I have no idea why they can see my elbow. I indicated in my
original post that it was a mystery to me. Nonetheless, this is
what has happened to me. I can theorize about motive and
mechanics, but I don't like to invent things.
> But if they noticed it, they will avoid you, not because they
> have learned better ways of navigation,
By my definition, a man that takes care to avoid collisions with
the surrounding couples is navigating better.
> but because they think you are a
> freak, an idiot better be avoided!
You are inventing things again. You are not in a position to
know the thought processes of the other couples on the floor
unless you ask them.
In any case, I am willing to sacrifice the good opinion of a
selfish, reckless, inconsiderate, rude, maniac who has found his
freedom to slam into other couples has been curtailed, for the
greater good of a more peaceful, harmonious dance floor. :-)
> All of you, macho guys, why you are so sure, that you will not
> get a kick back in return?
It's not the ladies causing these problems, it's the men. It's
not the ladies slamming into me, it's the men.
I don't see what you are objecting to, Igor. I repeat: I have
observed this to PREVENT collisions. They don't happen. No
contact, no violence, no ouchies. The dance continues
peacefully. No one is hurt. It's all good.
As for your implied threat, "It's the empty can that rattles the
loudest."
ramiro
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:37:16 +0200
From: Peter Jouliard <Peter_Jouliard@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
the difference is, that at a private party with friends they normally do not
behave like these selfish
guys who think they own the dance floor.
Secondly, i could talk to my friends and discuss the disturbing behaviour
with them. Did you ever try
to discuss these things with these guys at the side of a dance floor?
Finally do not make Ramiro the offender. it is not a secret how to behave on
the dance floor. And if someone
looses control, is thrown off balance, etc. the normal thing for that person
is to apologize.
But, my experience is, that these offenders do NOT apologize, so for them it
is their right to do what they
are doing.
peter jouliard
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 1:24 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
> I see..
>
> I am reading a little book "The Tao of Tango". My previous letters were
> written by my male energy (It shows). Now here is one inspired by my
female
> energy (I hope).
>
> Would you stick out your elbow, if you are invited to a private party
where
> everybody are your friends?
> Probably you say "No".
> So, what difference does that make with any other tango party?
>
> Igor Polk
>
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:20:39 -0400
From: Rick Jones <rwjones@FROZENGRAVITY.COM>
Subject: Re: Avoiding collisions (was: Conflicting tango styles)
Igor Polk wrote:
>When you stick out your elbow, you can hit a lady.
>
I agree that that would be totally bad form. That's why I take the
extra time and effort to take aim and kick the guy solidly in the shins
to make sure I get him and not the lady he is dancing with. Sometimes
that is followed by a swift kick in the groin (his, not mine).
It's such a delightful dance, yes?
Rick Jones
Washington DC
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:33:40 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Conflict
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
to all that Brick said, I'll add:
There's another hidden cost to the community: There are people who lurk on the list, just reading and learning and forming impressions, who see these ridiculous flame wars, these vicious personal attacks and lack of giving anyone the benefit of the doubt in such an imperfect communication medium as email, and say, "this is not for me," and are lost to the community without anyone ever even knowing.
Rules for avoiding conflict on mailing lists:
from:
https://www.madmanweb.com/archives/0102avoiding_personal_conflict_on_mailing_lists.html
1. Attack the opinion, not the person.
2. Avoid sarcasm. It doesn't come across well in email, which doesn't transmit tone of voice or facial expression.
3. When you disagree with someone, say just that. Saying, "I disagree" is not the same as "You're wrong".
4. When possible, show empathy for the receiver.
5. Don't be cryptic. Say what you mean, as simply and straight-forward as possible. Avoid innuendo.
6. When in doubt over what the other person meant, ask him or her. Don't assume anything. Real wars have been fought over assumptions.
7. Humor is always good to diffuse a tense situation. When you suspect that the other person may misinterpret you, use emoticons.
All of this of course assumes that everyone on the list sees value in the list being free of conflict...
J
TangoMoments.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:10:34 -0700> From: brick@fastpack.com> To: tango-l@mit.edu> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] traditional tango music> > ----You are not totally alone, but all of you should stay home.> ----They are probably doing it to make you leave. I would.> ----Are you sure it is tango you want to learn?> ----Cheers (and please don't move to New York),> > ====> > "How to Grow the Tango Community" is a common theme I come across in> Tango communities.> > This thread was started by a member expressing a preference for> alternative music like "west coast swing." His post saying he finds> "much of the traditional tango music, whiney and uninspiring" was> turned by another lister into a "bias and hatred of tango."> > IMHO, Tango is not a good "entry level dance:" it is simply too> difficult (though not impossible) to learn as a first dance. So it> might be, that attracting dancers with prior experience from other> dances would be a good way to "grow the community."> > Howeve!
Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger?
https://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:08:01 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Conflict
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hmmm. I don't mind people giving their opinions on whatever they want, provided I have the opportunity to reply. And I don't mind being
flamed for anything I might say. People can say whatever they want - I'm a very liberal guy.
But one thing that really gets up my nose is when people start to tell me HOW I should give my opinions.
Jay, I stopped listening to nannies a long time ago. You post in your way and let others post in their way.
Keith, HK
On Sun Sep 30 2:33 , Jay Rabe sent:
>to all that Brick said, I'll add:
>
>There's another hidden cost to the community: There are people who lurk on the list, just reading and learning and forming impressions, who
see these ridiculous flame wars, these vicious personal attacks and lack of giving anyone the benefit of the doubt in such an imperfect
communication medium as email, and say, "this is not for me," and are lost to the community without anyone ever even knowing.
>
>Rules for avoiding conflict on mailing lists:
>from:
>https://www.madmanweb.com/archives/0102avoiding_personal_conflict_on_mailing_lists.html
>1. Attack the opinion, not the person.
>2. Avoid sarcasm. It doesn't come across well in email, which doesn't transmit tone of voice or facial expression.
>3. When you disagree with someone, say just that. Saying, "I disagree" is not the same as "You're wrong".
>4. When possible, show empathy for the receiver.
>5. Don't be cryptic. Say what you mean, as simply and straight-forward as possible. Avoid innuendo.
>6. When in doubt over what the other person meant, ask him or her. Don't assume anything. Real wars have been fought over assumptions.
>7. Humor is always good to diffuse a tense situation. When you suspect that the other person may misinterpret you, use emoticons.
>
>All of this of course assumes that everyone on the list sees value in the list being free of conflict...
>
> J
>TangoMoments.com
>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 08:18:01 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Conflict
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Keith, I wasn't in any way telling you how to post. I merely pointed out that one of the costs of conflict and flame wars is an unwelcoming environment for new dancers. And I pointed out that IF one values growing the community, and IF one values a list that is productive in discussing substantive issues in tango, then the guidelines proposed would help achieve those goals. If you don't value those things, then feel free to carry on as you have in the past. J
> From: keith@tangohk.com> To: tango-l@mit.edu> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:08:01 -0400> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Conflict> > Hmmm. I don't mind people giving their opinions on whatever they want, provided I have the opportunity to reply. And I don't mind being > flamed for anything I might say. People can say whatever they want - I'm a very liberal guy. > > But one thing that really gets up my nose is when people start to tell me HOW I should give my opinions.> > Jay, I stopped listening to nannies a long time ago. You post in your way and let others post in their way.> > Keith, HK> > On Sun Sep 30 2:33 , Jay Rabe sent:> > >to all that Brick said, I'll add:> > > >There's another hidden cost to the community: There are people who lurk on the list, just reading and learning and forming impressions, who > see these ridiculous flame wars, these vicious personal attacks and lack of giving anyone the benefit of the doubt in such an imperfect > communication medium as email, and say, !
"this is not for me," and are lost to the community without anyone ever even knowing.> > > >Rules for avoiding conflict on mailing lists:> >from:> >https://www.madmanweb.com/archives/0102avoiding_personal_conflict_on_mailing_lists.html> >1. Attack the opinion, not the person.> >2. Avoid sarcasm. It doesn't come across well in email, which doesn't transmit tone of voice or facial expression.> >3. When you disagree with someone, say just that. Saying, "I disagree" is not the same as "You're wrong". > >4. When possible, show empathy for the receiver. > >5. Don't be cryptic. Say what you mean, as simply and straight-forward as possible. Avoid innuendo.> >6. When in doubt over what the other person meant, ask him or her. Don't assume anything. Real wars have been fought over assumptions.> >7. Humor is always good to diffuse a tense situation. When you suspect that the other person may misinterpret you, use emoticons.> > > >All of this of course assumes that everyone on the list s!
ees value in the list being free of conflict...> > > > J> >TangoMoment
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