382 Getting what you pay for
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:20:50 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Getting what you pay for
----- Original Message -----
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 02:34:34 -0500
From: Jim Singelis <jts@BCN.NET>
Subject: Re: Getting what you pay for
I am a believer of the school that says followers become better followers by
learning to lead and leaders become better leaders by learning to follow.
However, I would rephrase it. We all become better dancers by learning both
lead and follow.
There is a difference here. Lexa's situation is that she already knows how
to follow, whereas I assume from Manuel's post, that he has little
experience following. Lexa needs experience leading. And if the theory holds
true Manuel should become a better dancer by experiencing the followers
role.
No one should spend an entire workshop doing one or the other. For my money,
the "change partners" directive should be alternated with a "change roles"
directive.
All this depends on each person seriously accepting the challenge of the
role they are assuming. The real problem is when the follower who is asked
to lead does so only half heartedly, making no serious attempt. This makes
the whole exercise pointless. The same is true of the leader whose attempts
at following are half baked.
Jim
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:35:34 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for- What is called a half baked attempt
> All this depends on each person seriously accepting the challenge of the
> role they are assuming. The real problem is when the follower who is asked
> to lead does so only half heartedly, making no serious attempt. This makes
> the whole exercise pointless. The same is true of the leader whose
attempts
> at following are half baked.
>
I don't think, it is as simple as that (and I am not saying that changing
roles or living up to a challenge is simple for a lot of people.) I think,
the way you see it, you would also have to say, that "beginners dance badly
because their attempts are half baked." There is some truth in it, those who
work at it seriously will improve much more quickly. But what feels like "a
half baked attempt to follow", or being stuck in a macho role, backleading,
may actually be an inability to execute the necessary technique. I have next
to no experience with leading, but I hear that the balance of the leader is
very different, the weight is more on the heels, while there is also more
push in the chest, while the follower has to be, most of all, light, meaning
trying to defy gravity with major parts of her body, at the same time have a
very firm axis to provide some point for the man to lead her, but not impose
her axis on the leader etcetc. Moreover she has to walk backward most of the
time instead of forward, while keeping her weight slightly in front of her
body, so she needs high heels to put her in the right position for that,
which would not work for the leader... Being confronted with all these
different requirements that the dance partner may not even have to been
aware of, and may still not be, the result of his/her dancing in the other
role may look to the outsider and also to the partner like "a half baked
attempt", I think.
Considering this, it becomes clear that it might be a great help to learn
dancing in the other role before complaining that the partner is not doing
what he is supposed to be doing, when one does not even know what
difficulties may be involved in what he trying to do.
Astrid
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 17:30:15 GMT
From: Michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
Astrid wrote:
>
"I have next to no experience with leading, but I hear that the balance of the leader is very different, the weight is more on the heels, while there is also more push in the chest..."
Astrid:
I don't know where you're getting your information but the leader's weight should NOT be on the heels nor more on the heels. The leader's weight should be at the same place as the follower's - on the balls of the feet. You can't pivot if your weight is on the heels. Also, the leader's weight will be back if the weight is on the heels. I don't see how a person can lead with the weight back.
I suggest you go back to your source.
Michael
Washington, DC
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:59:41 -0800
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
Micheal,
I don't know how your feet can stand it to have your weight constantly
on the balls of your feet and no weight on your heels. If I had to
dance that way my arches would be finished off two songs into an evening
and I would have to quit dancing.
The only time the heels need to be free is when you are pivoting, and I
have never seen enyone who is constantly pivoting. I can easily have
weight in my heels and have my energy forward. I am wildly more stable
with my heels down. When I need to pivot, then of course I pivot on the
balls of my feet.
Robert
Michael wrote:
>
>
> Astrid:
>
> I don't know where you're getting your information but the leader's weight should NOT be on the heels nor more on the heels. The leader's weight should be at the same place as the follower's - on the balls of the feet. You can't pivot if your weight is on the heels. Also, the leader's weight will be back if the weight is on the heels. I don't see how a person can lead with the weight back.
>
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:36:44 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
> The leader's weight should be at the same place as the follower's - on the
balls of the feet. I don't see how a person can lead with the weight back.
>
> I suggest you go back to your source.
>
> Michael
How do you explain the fact, that the woman needs at least 2 inch heels to
be in the right body position for dancing, and if she wants to touch the
floor with her heels as often as possible, better 3 inch heels, and the
leader doesn't ?
And that if she is dancing without heels, she has to be on tip toes ?
Have you tried following, and been complimented for how well you dance in
that role, like "my source", who is a lady, is for leading when she does ?
Astrid
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:26:43 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
>
> > The leader's weight should be at the same place as the follower's - on the
>balls of the feet. I don't see how a person can lead with the weight back.
>>
>> I suggest you go back to your source.
>>
>> Michael
>
>How do you explain the fact, that the woman needs at least 2 inch heels to
>be in the right body position for dancing, and if she wants to touch the
>floor with her heels as often as possible, better 3 inch heels, and the
>leader doesn't ?
>And that if she is dancing without heels, she has to be on tip toes ?
>Have you tried following, and been complimented for how well you dance in
>that role, like "my source", who is a lady, is for leading when she does ?
>
>Astrid
Proper technique depends on the individual and the circumstance.
One should never blindly listen to a single teacher (or school, or
style) when it comes to technique.
What is appropriate for a 20 year old stage tango dancer with a
ballet background just might not be appropriate for a 40 year old
social dancers.
Some tango teachers ask the woman to be up on her toes, especially
those who have ballet or modern backgrounds.
Some teachers have injured their backs, and have modified their
teaching to ask the ladies to lower their heels (among other
adjustments).
Some have not yet injured their backs, nor have they modified their teaching.
Some suggest that tango as a social dance should be more relaxed, and
always ask the women to lower their heels.
Yes, she'll rise to the balls of her feet to pivot depending on the
height of her heels, but even 2 inch heels are pretty high to be used
for 4 or 6 hours of social dancing.
What I notice when we get a visitor who chooses the tippy-toe
technique, is that a bunch of the ladies try to go up on their toes,
a line of tension runs from the back of their calf all the way up to
their lower back, and they immediately lose a lot of the balance they
had before the teacher came.
If you want to pursue a more stage-oriented technique like being up
on your toes, fine, but understand that this presumes a lot of
underlying athleticism and training...and perhaps more youth than
some of us will ever regain, no matter how many pilates classes we
take.
Some teachers say the guys should be step with the heels, others say
it should be the toes. What an intelligent observer might conclude
given the disagreement is that this is a stylistic issue, not a
technical requirement of the dance.
As Robert points out, with the heels down, tango gains more of that
balanced, grounded, solid feeling that is so characteristic of Buenos
Aires dancers.
Trying to be grounded while at the same time as being up on your toes
is a funny way to dance. Imagine sneaking around with bent knees
while up on your toes and then start doing ochos.
N. Americans do not come to tango with a grounded, earthy
sensibility. Since being grounded is so typical of authentic tango,
then the teachers need to explain it.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 22:11:26 -0500
From: "Sa, Na-W, Na-C, Na-E, Misc" <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
Astrid asked:
> > > Michael:
> How do you explain the fact, that the woman needs at least 2 inch >
heels to> be in the right body position for dancing, and if she wants to
touch > the> floor with her heels as often as possible, better 3 inch
heels, and > the> leader doesn't ?
> And that if she is dancing without heels, she has to be on tip toes > ?
> Have you tried following, and been complimented for how well you >
dance in> that role, like "my source", who is a lady, is for leading when
she > does ?
------------
I'm not convinced women need high heels to dance tango. I think it's a
style decision. My ex fiance who was short with back problems wanted to
wear heels even though it hurt her back. When I told her she was hurting
her back, she said "I want to look good." I find it hard to believe that
a woman needs very high heels to dance tango well. I don't understand how
the size of heels can help technique.
As for following, I've followed at workshops. My private dancer leads me
in my lesson to help understand better what I'm trying to lead.
Michael
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 01:06:27 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
I think we can agree that most of the pivots in tango are best accomplished
on the balls of the feet... Usually the women are asked to do a lot more
pivoting than the men. Consequently, the women will tend to spend more
time on the balls of their feet than the men. It would follow that the men
spend a greater proportion of their time with a higher percentage of their
weight on their heels than the women...
Nonetheless, tango movements are grounded (like modern dance) rather than
being up (like ballet)*... Dancing on the toes does not work particularly
well in tango... Ironically, many of the women who dance in low-heeled
shoes or flats end up dancing on their toes as they attempt to pivot... And
then they stay there if they do not want to bob up and down with every
pivot... That is how I interpreted Astrid's comment: "[I]f she is dancing
without heels, she has to be on tip toes ..." Even for a ballet-trained
dancer, staying up on the toes can put a tremendous strain on the feet, and
it doesn't help the backs or legs either....
Many Argentine women achieve grounded movements while wearing 3- 4 inch
(75-100 mm) heels... Sometimes, wearing a little bit higher heels can help
the woman be more in touch with the floor--by providing support on which
she can rest her heels between pivots without bouncing up and down and
enabling her to rise onto her balls rather than her toes with relatively
little movement.
My remarks should not be interpreted as advocating that women wear 3-4 inch
heels to dance tango. Wearing heels that high for 4-6 hours of dancing
requires greater flexibility in the ankles and can put stress on the back,
feet and legs. Two inch heels may suffice, if the woman is able to rest on
her heels between steps. It is her choice...
What we ask the women to endure for an embrace that is danced.... :-)
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
*Anyone who thinks modern dance is up should watch a few videos of the late
Martha Graham and her dance company. The movements show a strong
relationship with the floor.
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 16:19:04 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
Tom wrote:
>
> Proper technique depends on the individual and the circumstance.
>
> One should never blindly listen to a single teacher (or school, or
> style) when it comes to technique.
I am not "blindly listening to just one teacher" and I hope you have been
aware of that.
>
>
> What is appropriate for a 20 year old stage tango dancer with a
> ballet background just might not be appropriate for a 40 year old
> social dancers.
> Some tango teachers ask the woman to be up on her toes, especially
> those who have ballet or modern backgrounds.
> Some teachers have injured their backs, and have modified their
> teaching to ask the ladies to lower their heels (among other
> adjustments).
If you read my posting well, you would notice that I wrote
"if she wants to touch the
floor with her heels as often as possible, better 3 inch heels,...And that
if she is dancing without heels, she has to be on tip toes"
I never said that anybody asked me to be on tip toes while I am wearing
heels. I have been asked to put my heels down, and that is easier on 3
inches. If you don't believe me, ask e.g. Robin Tara or Helaine Treitman for
reference.
> Some suggest that tango as a social dance should be more relaxed, and
> always ask the women to lower their heels.
I also have not noticed that stage dancers are constantly dancing on tip
toes. Only ballerinas do, and they are literally on the tips of their toes,
which has nothing to do with tango.
And I have not noticed that 40 year old women dance in flat or low shoes
either.
Forgive me, Tom, but you seem to be saying that everybody who is making a
priority of good technique and elegance belongs on stage, and that ordinary
"social dancers" should not feel any such obligations. I'd rather not dance
at a milonga where such ideas are widespread.
>
> What I notice when we get a visitor who chooses the tippy-toe
> technique, is that a bunch of the ladies try to go up on their toes,
> a line of tension runs from the back of their calf all the way up to
> their lower back, and they immediately lose a lot of the balance they
> had before the teacher came.
That just shows what poor dancers that bunch of ladies are. I have not heard
of the "tippy-toe" technique, that excludes the point of gravity on the
metatarsal area. And I have never had a teacher who told me to keep my heels
up in the air all the time.
>
> If you want to pursue a more stage-oriented technique like being up
> on your toes, fine, but understand that this presumes a lot of
> underlying athleticism and training...and perhaps more youth than
> some of us will ever regain, no matter how many pilates classes we
> take.
I also have not noticed that younger people are necessarily better dancers.
>
> As Robert points out, with the heels down, tango gains more of that
> balanced, grounded, solid feeling that is so characteristic of Buenos
> Aires dancers.
As I said, put the high heels down as often as possible, with 3 inches a
woman can spend almost the entire dance on the ground. If she can stretch
her achilles tendons and the muscles on the back of her legs more, she can
also stay down on medium high heels. So, maybe you can check if younger
dancers are able to manage better on lower heels than the older ones,
because their tissues are more elastic still.
>
> Trying to be grounded while at the same time as being up on your toes
> is a funny way to dance. Imagine sneaking around with bent knees
> while up on your toes and then start doing ochos.
Rubbish. This is neither grounded nor elegant. The idea is to dance with
almost straight legs while keeping the knees loose AND the heels down, and
then try to be slightly in the diagonal, if the woman wants to look really
elegant.
>
> N. Americans do not come to tango with a grounded, earthy
> sensibility. Since being grounded is so typical of authentic tango,
> then the teachers need to explain it.
And how do you explain the fact that the Argentine women all dance in high
heels ? When I went to Mexico for a tango festival, the Argentine cobbler
did not even carry anything below 3 inches in his luggage to sell there, I
made him search all his boxes.
And then the Maestro from BA (a milonguero who dances salon) told me to
throw out my dance sneakers, because "these shoes don't belong on the dance
floor". At least this is what I understood. At dinner he just took my
sneakers in his hand and pretended to throw them out the window and said:
"This is what you should do with your shoes"...
> --
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 03:14:22 -0600
From: Lisandro Gomez <lisandro.gomez@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
> I'm not convinced women need high heels to dance tango. I think it's a
> style decision. My ex fiance who was short with back problems wanted to
> wear heels even though it hurt her back. When I told her she was hurting
> her back, she said "I want to look good." I find it hard to believe that
> a woman needs very high heels to dance tango well. I don't understand how
> the size of heels can help technique.
>
> As for following, I've followed at workshops. My private dancer leads me
> in my lesson to help understand better what I'm trying to lead.
>
> Michael
The women (and the man too) need technique first, and then they can ware any
kind of hill they want with out hurting their back or knee!! If you don't
have the adequate technique what may happen is: if your hill has some weight
on the floor when you are pivoting will create a much grater resistance to
the motion, since your hip rotation creates this pivot, this resistance will
be directly absorbed by your spine, if your abdomen is not sufficiently
contracted and your back muscle is not strong enough to support the spine,
you are putting your spine at risk of injury. Some times the muscles of the
legs are not properly trained, may cause the pivot happening in you knee
rather than in the BALL OF YOUR FEET.
And yes,if you dance bare foot, you definitely do it in the ball of your
feet with you hill lifted the highest possibly range, keep your stomach and
your butt tight and your upper body strait tall to achieve balance and
support your spine, will cause a lot of muscular pain at the beginning but
you will developed the strength and technique to ware any size of hill with
out hearting your back.
And now, when you ware high hill shoes, you have to make it look tango by
grounding the hill to the floor, meaning that you are going to create the
illusion that you are touching the floor by lifting your hill just enough to
put a paper under it, how close you are going to get will depend on the
floor and on you own ability.
For man is about the same thing, however we may go in our hill some times to
give ourselves more balance support when we need it to lead or to allow her
to make adornments.
Remember it is better to be a little ungrounded than back injured . And
remember the old canyengue, the woman lean on the man, knees bent and on the
ball of her feet and hills up.
Lisandro
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 00:13:07 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: : Getting what you pay for
For what its worth:
I've seen a instructional video by Rebecca Shulman (assisted by Daniel
Trenner) called "Follower's Technique" & in her demos at the beginning & end
she spends most of her time on the balls of her feet. I'm not advocating one
way or the other, it probably feels the most natural for her. I do the same,
although I'd have to watch my feet before I could say where my weight it. I
just do what feels the best for me, sounds like a good idea for anyone...
Rick Anderson
Portland, OR
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:52:56 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
Durn, what I'd like is an attractive shoe with a heel
lower than two inches. I was looking at the Tara
shoes page a month ago and let out a great whoop of
delight when I saw what looked like a new shoe with a
comfortable-for-practice, good-for-the-long-haul kind
of heel. Unfortunately, my companion promptly pointed
out to me that it was a man's shoe.
Disappointedly,
Marisa
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:23:33 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Getting what you pay for-
>Tom wrote:
>>
>> Proper technique depends on the individual and the circumstance.
>>
> > One should never blindly listen to a single teacher (or school,
> > or style) when it comes to technique.
>
>I am not "blindly listening to just one teacher" and I hope you
> have been aware of that.
> >
I'm sure you don't fit in that category.
I notice that many women take privates to improve their technique,
and then get committed or habituated to one technique. The woman's
role in tango is one of dancing with many different guys & different
styles, therefore the woman typically needs a wider variety of
techniques then do the guys.
Perhaps I overreacted to your phrase:
"if she is dancing without heels, she has to be on tip toes ...".
I do NOT agree with that statement.
I'm very quick to respond to things that contribute to injury.
My wife has significant training in Ballet, Modern, Jazz & African.
She can easily find that long, tall look of tango, high on the
metatarsal, with extended legs. She injured her back pretty seriously
when she added in the ochos to that extended look.
As a result she interviewed every female tango teacher who came to
town, discovering that a very high percentage have injured backs.
By far the majority of female travelling teachers have stage or
ballet/modern training.
The distinction of being high on your metatarsal (not tip-toe) vs
lower with heels down correlates strongly with stage or ballet/modern
trained vs social dancers.
The performance-tango teachers advocate higher heels and up on your
toes, while the social tango teachers advocate heels down.
"Milonguero" style dancing is much more grounded and "down." It does
not require much pivoting on the ground, and one can even dance on
concrete without any pivots at all, if you have the appropriate
technique. One of the most extraordinary dances I had in Buenos Aires
was with a woman who normally dances on cobblestones. She had this
amazing grounded sensibility that was exquisite.
The good Neuvo-style tango dancers tend to be both grounded and
balanced on the metatarsal. My view is that Nuevo tango requires a
much higher level of training than other styles for both the men and
the women.
I'm not a fan of those jazz-sneakers. I think they look blocky and
athletic, not elegant, but I have to admit that is a stylistic
opinion of mine.
In fact, there is nothing wrong with taking your tango in a much more
casual sense.
Why not use regular canvas sneakers? The red or purple ones look
pretty cool with jazz pants or blue jeans. I'm not being sarcastic in
the least...I prefer tango as a social dance, not as a performance
dance.
Again, there is a technique to use when the floor is sticky or your
feet don't pivot easily. Without understanding this it is possible to
injure your knees.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 01:20:18 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
> Durn, what I'd like is an attractive shoe with a heel
> lower than two inches.
Maybe you should check the shoes on www.flamenco-world.com
You can order the same shoes without nails, and that should work pretty well
for dancing tango, it is practically the same style sometimes, without the
pointy shoe box but a rounder one, which might be a nice change for your
toes. If what you are after is something like a Cuban heel.
Or you could buy "teacher's shoes" from that English company Supa (?). Just
check for teacher's shoes on the internet.
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 01:38:23 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Getting what you pay for-
(Tom's wife) interviewed every female tango teacher who came to
> town, discovering that a very high percentage have injured backs.
The only time I almost injured my back (I was lucky, I just could not dance
for the next two hours, that was all), was in Mexico when I had 10 hours of
jetlag, was dancing 8 hours a day, and on the third day, when in the fourth
hour I danced with an Argentine from Canada, who had a rather short wife he
was used too, danced apilado, and then, instead of leaning against me,
leaned DOWN on me (I am quite a bit taller than his wife). The weight bore
down on my spine, and almost compressed a disc in an already tense, fatigued
body.
I have also noticed that dancing with beginner men is often very hard on my
feet. Do not EVER lean on a woman who is wearing high heels, you guys, if I
may use this opportunity to tell you.
> I'm not a fan of those jazz-sneakers. I think they look blocky and
> athletic, not elegant, but I have to admit that is a stylistic
> opinion of mine.
> Why not use regular canvas sneakers? The red or purple ones look
> pretty cool ...
I am not a fan of dance sneakers either, but under those conditions in
Mexico (first three 90 minute tango classes with 15 breaks in between, then
a shower, dinner, and a 3 hour milonga til 2 am every day), they certainly
helped me survive, putting them on for one of the 3 classes every day. I was
one of the very few people who never skipped a class, nor a milonga. And I
did not throw them out the window, as was suggested. ; )
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:51:33 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Getting what you pay for-
Steve de Tejas writes:
> Many Argentine women achieve grounded movements while wearing 3- 4 inch
> (75-100 mm) heels... Sometimes, wearing a little bit higher heels can help
> the woman be more in touch with the floor--by providing support on which
> she can rest her heels between pivots without bouncing up and down and
> enabling her to rise onto her balls rather than her toes with relatively
> little movement.
and Astrid adds:
> As I said, put the high heels down as often as possible, with 3 inches a
> woman can spend almost the entire dance on the ground.
By way of a data point of agreement, one time in a seminar Corina de
la Rosa told those of us in attendance that she finds it much easier and
much less tiring to dance the follower's part while wearing heels.
Huck
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:53:40 -0800
From: George Nicol <george@INSCENES.COM>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
Marisa,
Try www.inscenes.com. Then click on the "Shoes" category in the left hand
column.
Or just go to www.inscenes.com/shoes.
George
At 06:52 AM 1/10/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Durn, what I'd like is an attractive shoe with a heel
>lower than two inches. I was looking at the Tara
>shoes page a month ago and let out a great whoop of
>delight when I saw what looked like a new shoe with a
>comfortable-for-practice, good-for-the-long-haul kind
>of heel. Unfortunately, my companion promptly pointed
>out to me that it was a man's shoe.
>
>Disappointedly,
>Marisa
>
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:12:51 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRYHART.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: : Getting what you pay for-
<snip>
Proper technique depends on the individual and the circumstance.
In my view it is impossible to achieve the embrace without the proper
posture and that includes standing on your axis (both men and women),
balanced on the balls of your feet with your weight forward and chest up.
Some suggest that tango as a social dance should be more relaxed,
and
always ask the women to lower their heels.
High heels can be more comfortable than low heels (I'm told), because the
support the lady on her axis without having to continually reach up on tip
toe. She can then stand on her whole foot and still maintain her balance and
axis. Men wear the "french heel" for the same reason.
What I notice when we get a visitor who chooses the tippy-toe
technique, is that a bunch of the ladies try to go up on their toes,
a line of tension runs from the back of their calf all the way up to
their lower back, and they immediately lose a lot of the balance
they
had before the teacher came.
The stationary (or feet together) balance is on the front of the foot,
giving good balance and allowing the lady to be ready for the next step in
any direction. She should stand on her whole foot when stepping, for
balance and comfort, and come right back to her balance for the next step.
Some teachers say the guys should be step with the heels, others say
it should be the toes. What an intelligent observer might conclude
given the disagreement is that this is a stylistic issue, not a
technical requirement of the dance.
It is almost impossible to move the torso first to mark clearly and move the
lady's feet first if you step with the heel first. Again, whilst you step
on the balls of your feet first, you land on the whole foot, knees flexed,
giving balance and the grounded look.
As Robert points out, with the heels down, tango gains more of that
balanced, grounded, solid feeling that is so characteristic of
Buenos
Aires dancers.
N. Americans do not come to tango with a grounded, earthy
sensibility. Since being grounded is so typical of authentic tango,
then the teachers need to explain it.
All this is less important if you want to dance apart, though. Trust this
adds usefully to the debate.
El Abrazo
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:46:13 -0000
From: Mike Lavocah <mikelavocah@FREENETNAME.CO.UK>
Subject: Heels (was: Getting what you pay for)
Dear list
I've been following this discussion, prompted by Astrid's iniquiry. Tom
Sternitz's post in particular I thought very helpful. I've got a few points
to make.
Tango is danced on the ground. Eduardo Arquimbau has said that, whilst other
dancers move across the surface of the floor, in tango we step down into the
ground. The only way to achieve this groundedness is "apoyarse en el
suelo" - to lean on the floor.
In order to pivot, and to help keep the intention forward towards the
partner, the woman needs her weight on the ball of the foot.
You've got two ways to do this:
- wear a flat shoe and pull your heels into the air
- wear a shoe with a heel, which automatically puts your weight in the
right place
Generations of milongueras have selected option two.
Now, having got a shoe with a heel, you must *let the shoe do the work* and
have the intention of sending your heels towards the ground. You don't need
to do it any more; the shoe is doing it for you. Picking up your heels sets
up a tension system right up the legs and into the back that destroys the
connection with the floor. This is something I can feel instantly in my
partner's body. As Tom and others have said, it's also very bad for the
back.
If you don't believe me, just dance in flats but with your heels three
inches of the floor! It feels and looks *horrible*.
I especially want to pick up on Tom's point that the conservatoire-trained
young dancers we are seeing a lot of recently have got ballet backgrounds
rather than having come up through the milonga, and that therefore they are
not necessarily the best guide to tango technique.
Female stage dancers use shoes with a particular high heel and I wonder if
there is a technical benefit as well as a stylistic one. My feeling is that
it might help them to take the very big steps used in stage dancing. As you
stretch back for a big step, the foot has to bend back more at the ankle to
push the toe back, which means that the heel is further and further from the
floor. The higher heel gets the heel back down more quickly. Try dancing big
steps without shoes and you'll see what I mean straight away.
Finally, let's not forget that there are early styles of dancing which
evolved dancing on cobbles that did not use the pivot very much. Even today
milonguera women pivot much less than stage performers. They also wear
relatively low heels. It seems that, the more you want to pivot, and the
bigger the step you want to take, the higher the heel needs to be.
Saludos
Mike Lavocah
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:11:33 -0800
From: JeffryesSussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Posture (was Getting what you pay for)
--- Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> wrote:
> >
> > > The leader's weight should be at the same place
> as the follower's - on the
> >balls of the feet. I don't see how a person can
> lead with the weight back.
> >>
> >> I suggest you go back to your source.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >
> >How do you explain the fact, that the woman needs
> at least 2 inch heels to
> >be in the right body position for dancing, and if
> she wants to touch the
> >floor with her heels as often as possible, better 3
> inch heels, and the
> >leader doesn't ?
> >And that if she is dancing without heels, she has
> to be on tip toes ?
> >Have you tried following, and been complimented for
> how well you dance in
> >that role, like "my source", who is a lady, is for
> leading when she does ?
> >
> >Astrid
>
> What I notice when we get a visitor who chooses the
> tippy-toe
> technique, is that a bunch of the ladies try to go
> up on their toes,
> a line of tension runs from the back of their calf
> all the way up to
> their lower back, and they immediately lose a lot of
> the balance they
> had before the teacher came.
>
> Tom Stermitz
I think one reason this thread is turning into such a
hot debate is that people aren't in front of one
another demonstrating what they mean. My attempt
might not clear it up, either, but here goes...
If I'm thinking of the same thing that is being
referred to as a "tippy-toe" technique, then it isn't
simply a matter of weight forward/back and weight on
the ball or heel of the foot. I touched on this some
months ago, and it sparked some hot responses (I even
blocked somebody who sent me the most strange and
hostile letter!).
If you try to put your weight forward on your toes
while simultaneously trying to stand straight up, you
get yourself into this peculiar, precarious position
with straight legs and butt back. It's very hard to
move and to maintain your balance.
This is what happens to some people when they are
first trying to understand what is meant when they are
told to maintain their weight forward.
If you are actually going to lean, that's another
thing. That requires support (and trust that there
will be support) from your partner. When you do that,
your posture still has to be the same! Your body
looks exactly the same as if you were standing
straight up; it's just tilted, but with the same
appearance with respect to itself.
When people first attempt that, they can get into that
"tippy-toe" look that I think is being referred to.
If you're going to lean, ya gotta lean. You can't try
to stand up, too. You often see this error when newer
dancers are trying to follow the weight forward
admonition and trying to imitate the beautiful
advanced dancers they see.
I suggest that the hotness of the debate in this
thread has something to do with people making their
points about a couple of different things. People are
debating apples and oranges.
The choice of weight on the ball or the heel of the
foot isn't the only point about the "tippy-toe" look.
It's also a matter of posture.
Stand up straight. Be on your own balance. Then you
can move. I suppose that will be true whether your
choice is to be on your ball or heel. But if you're
going to lean, you have to really do it. Your body
must have the same posture, albeit tilted. You can't
lean AND pull yourself up to stand up on your own.
This is one mistake that is common to see. A frame
with a lean is advanced, and you have to be partnered
with somebody who is up to it.
Jai
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:43:19 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Posture (was Getting what you pay for)
You can't
> lean AND pull yourself up to stand up on your own.
> This is one mistake that is common to see. A frame
> with a lean is advanced, and you have to be partnered
> with somebody who is up to it.
>
I have had strict tango teachers who danced in a lean with me, and if I made
a larger mistake, suddenly let go of me in order to stare at me with a
reproachful look, or at least tell me to start all over again. Now, if what
you are saying were true, I would have fallen flat on my nose the moment the
guy let go of me. I didn't. (I am not talking about the
sweep-the-woman-off-her-feet-into-your arms-kind of low lean, just a dance
frame)
One of the necessary conditions for a lean, if the woman does not want to
wreck the man's back and have him develop a dislike for her, is, that her
axis is quite fully developped. NO sagging in the middle, it should be like
carrying a board for the man, not a sack of potatoes. And the woman can only
lean on a man like that, if he is offering his chest, or at least a solid
frame for her, built upon his axis, otherwise he is going to MAKE her sag,
or, worst scenario, even sag in the diagonal slightly towards the side of
her feet. If that's all you can do, don't even try.
Astrid
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:20:39 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Posture (was Getting what you pay for)
>If you are actually going to lean, that's another
>thing. That requires support (and trust that there
>will be support) from your partner. When you do that,
>your posture still has to be the same! Your body
>looks exactly the same as if you were standing
>straight up; it's just tilted, but with the same
>appearance with respect to itself.
I'm not at all in the "leaning" school of close embrace.
For me the posture should be almost the same whether in close or open
embrace, i.e. each dancer on their OWN balance, even as they have a
semi-forward posture and share an axis in close embrace.
There are styles of close-embrace that advocate leaning, other styles
that ask for a fist between the tummies, but those aren't my
preference.
There is even one style that asks for the woman's sternum to be on
the leaders chest!
There are two important things to say about this.
(1) Asking for a lean or leaving a fist between the tummies is highly
dependent on the size of the two people, while being more vertical
allows you to "connect where you connect".
I'm short, so a large woman who leans on me kills my fun (and my
back). It removes the wonderful shared embrace from tummy to solar
plexus, and makes me feel like she is pulling away or stepping away
from me, rather than sharing a connection.
(2) Non-choreographed Tango has the structural requirement of the man
leading & the woman following.
Even though tango is a dance of two coming together, the impulse or
lead in tango comes from the man (or leader), and tango requires the
woman to "give herself up to the lead." (entregarse). It isn't like
swing or foxtrot where the woman keeps more of her own movements.
This means that the style/technique chosen by the woman enables or
disables the dance proposed by the leader.
For example: Leaning forward in the "A-Frame" style, prohibits
single-axis turns, and reduces the amount of pivot available. This
affects the way the leader can navigate or interpret the music.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:47:06 -0800
From: Benjamin Koh <benkoh@STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Posture (was Getting what you pay for)
Tom Stermitz wrote:
<snip>
> This means that the style/technique chosen by the woman enables or
> disables the dance proposed by the leader.
>
> For example: Leaning forward in the "A-Frame" style, prohibits
> single-axis turns, and reduces the amount of pivot available. This
> affects the way the leader can navigate or interpret the music.
>
This is directly related to the point I was trying to make in my earlier
post. If, whether as a leader or follower, you only dance one style or
the other (whether "A-Frame" or otherwise), and your partner only dances
some other style, it's not going to be much fun for either of you, even
if you are pretty good at your particular style, since both of you are
dancing something you're not too good at.
This is also another argument for expanding your dance vocabulary, of
course. As in a literary language, many things can be used to express
the same thing, and should certain words be unavailable, ideally you
should be able to substitute something that works just as well, or
almost as well.
The most practical advantage of a broad dance vocabulary is probably in
navigation. I am sure that most of us have at one time or another been
either the cause or the victim of a collision, either from blind-side
movement or because we/they can't figure out how to convert one figure
into another by changing the sequence of steps and thus the
direction/type of movement.
As an example, many people learn the molinete as a complete circle, but
since it's made up of individual steps, as leader/follower you should be
able to change the step taken at any point into something else and go
off into another direction and keep on dancing. It's like spelling a
word... APPLE can become APPEAL if you make a change after APP.
I sometimes broadly group the styles in my head as "A" and "11" since
they describe the posture of the couple pretty well. There is everything
else in between, of course, though I haven't seen many "V" style
embraces in tango. "V" is fairly common in waltz-type dances, since it
helps with the spinning aspect, and can work quite well in tango waltz
given sufficient space and technical ability.
I personally prefer to learn enough from a few styles to be able to cope
with whatever my current partner happens to offer and still be able to
have fun - and let my partner have fun too, of course. I've danced with
many followers with whom one style works very well and another doesn't
work at all. Usually it's clear from the initial embrace, but sometimes
it's only when we begin moving that I realize I should switch.
Safe navigation to all,
Benjamin
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:50:30 -0600
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Heels (was: Getting what you pay for)
Dear List,
I also have been following this discussion thread. I have read numerous
replies from the male (lead) members and most of them were dissecting the
finite and logical deduction of the height of heels (from metric to imperial
system!).
I started to wonder, have these contributors try putting the heels on
themselves before coming to the conclusion of singling out the only 2
criteria are the height of heels and where the weight to rest?
None of the entry even touches the fundamental criterion: the lady
(follower) MUST FEEL comfortable in these shoes in all positions, not just
where to leaning.
How many list members mentioning about the quality of the shoe construction
and the dynamics of foot that includes which part of the shoes would absorb
the weight of the person? Without addressing the static and dynamic, and
without wearing the heels themselves, but jumping into the conclusion of the
height of the heels sounds like the blindly praising certain part of the
body with "the bigger the better" theory.
Shoes that are whatever height (high heel) *endorsed* by this forum could
squeeze the toes or the width of the foot, could be poorly arched, the heels
could be installed off-centre or unreinforced. It is hard to walk on, let
alone dancing on.
If the ladies just blindly follow the only "golden rules of the height of
heels" from this thread so far, then suffering from pain without knowing the
true reason, they could only be led to the conclusion of they are not a good
dancer.... But that IS NOT THE TRUTH!
This creates a flash back on how the ladies in the Ching dynasty of China
with bound feet. The males (who do not bind their feet) theorized that the
women should; the women accepted it and with generations, suffered from bone
deformation. If the women could not tolerate the pain, they were led to
think that they were not socially fitted.
When I am the follower, I dance on a pair of 1-inch normal street shoes for
13 hours without pain, even by resting on the balls of the feet most of the
time due to frequent pivots. I feel pain with a pair of 3 inch
"professionally manufactured" after a few hours, and the quality of my
dancing soon deteriorates. I have also danced with a pair of Latin dance
shoes which grasps the "neck" of the foot (between the ball and the arch),
thus relieving the pressure of the toes from jutting forward. This allows
the toes to spread to maintain balance-- that is a pair of good shoes.
Heels? Irreverent and frankly I don't care, although I know it is way lower
than a 3 or 4 inch.
There is another entry at the list about relationship of high heels with
professional dancers. Humbly I do not agree; professional dancers can wear
heels because the social standard pre-determines that it looks better (a la
the Chinese bound foot) while the dancers are so good in their balance that
they can work around it. The bigger the striding forward motion with the
higher heels, the more pressure it would be on the ankles. I would ask the
contributor to physically put some heels on, trying it before commenting.
I wonder: why so few ladies who actually wear these (high) heel shoes
commented ???? Or should the lady do what the male thinks best?
Bibi
