551 Goodbye to Tango
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 21:03:03 -0700
From: "Larry E. Carroll" <larrydla@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Goodbye to Tango
I've just about dropped out of tango. It's kind of - ironic? - because
I've been so deeply involved with it, taking lots of lessons over the
last dozen years, dancing 2 or 3 times a week, going to Argentina,
creating and maintaining the Southern California Web site for many
years, even writing a book on how to dance tango and putting it on my
Web site.
What happened is that I've been working more and more in this last
year on writing, including writing several free-lance articles which
are now in the submission process, and ditto a novelette. I'm deep in
a science fiction novel, and six weeks ago had a compelling idea for a
female coming-of-age novel. Since then this latter novel has consumed
much of my waking time - 4 hours each week night, 8-12 hours each
weekend. I even took four days vacation time just to work on it.
So I haven't gone dancing at all in two months, except once at a
benefit for something and then I just showed up, paid my money, said
hello to a few people, and went home. And I've found that I don't miss
tango at all. Indeed, it's a relief not to be out there.
Why? Maybe a few of you will understand.
First, in the last year or so I've been getting more women saying no
to my dance invitations, or saying yes and then very obviously being
bored. I've noticed that these naysayers are more often younger women,
so I've quit asking anyone under 30, and rarely ask anyone under 40 to
dance with me.
This phenomena is one that happens when an activity gets large - the
activity begins to break up into age groups, and other socioeconomics
divisions. I accept that young women are urgently looking for Prince
Charming rather than Polonius, and that someone who is 60 is
definitely on the Polonius side.
Still, my old reflexes from the time when everyone danced with
everyone occasionally get the best of me, and I goof up and ask
someone to dance who I should ignore. It's hard to turn off the White
Knight reflex when I see a woman, especially someone new who knows no
one at a miloga, sitting and being ignored for an hour or more.
Second, I've become less tolerant lately not only of rejection but of
leaders who do show tango regardless of floor conditions. In Los
Angeles at the milongas I go to frequently there are four men in
particular who are always there, and always doing very large, fast
patterns. I'm not sure which is the most dangerous: racing about the
floor, or spinning like a top.
Understand, it's not show tango that is the fault. I love show tango
figures and do them when the floor allows; a number of L.A. men do
them. The difference is that when the floor gets crowded we slow down
and make our figures more compact.
The ironic thing is these four men, because they do this acrobatic
stuff so often and so well (being obsessed with it and practicing it
so much), are accounted great dancers and desirable dance partners. At
least by the majority of women, who (not having to lead) pay little
attention to what goes on around them, and who never realize how often
and how close their partners come to injuring them. And how much the
other men on the dance floor curse their partners under their breath,
and head for safety when they see one of these four men bearing down
on them.
Ah, good. My subconscious came up with a solution to a plot point
while I was relaxing with a good diatribe, and I'm back in high gear.
Tonight I should cross the 100,000 word mark and begin the change in
the plot arc that leads to the last scene of the book. Another four
weeks and the book should be done.
Whether I return to tango dancing, or turn to swing and salsa ...
We'll see.
Larry de Los Angeles
https://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:42:24 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango
Larry Carroll wrote:
>In Los Angeles at the milongas I go to frequently there are four men
>in particular who are always there, and always doing very large, fast
>patterns. I'm not sure which is the most dangerous: racing about the
>floor, or spinning like a top. ...
>The ironic thing is these four men, because they do this acrobatic
>stuff so often and so well (being obsessed with it and practicing it
>so much), are accounted great dancers and desirable dance partners. At
>least by the majority of women, who (not having to lead) pay little
>attention to what goes on around them, and who never realize how often
>and how close their partners come to injuring them. And how much the
>other men on the dance floor curse their partners under their breath,
>and head for safety when they see one of these four men bearing down
>on them.
Dancing in a way that does not respect the ronda -- whether it is by
backing up or jumping in and out of lanes -- is what is the most dangerous.
People dancing big acrobatic figures frequently do both of these things...
I have been told an interesting story about a collision in New York that
resulted when one woman, who was being led by someone who broke the ronda,
ended up stepping on another woman's foot with her heel. The second woman
was severely injured, and ended up with a "handsome" settlement from the
leader who broke the ronda.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:57:11 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango
Larry and friends,
"Larry E. Carroll" wrote:
>
> I've just about dropped out of tango. It's kind of - ironic?
Lets not confuse "dropping out" with "moving on". Like a
romantic relationship, tango can be a tremendous vehicle for self
examination and self affirmation. And in the throes of fascination
with tango's idioms, messages, motivations, and interpersonal
explorations, it's easy to loose oneself. But the self does emerge:
hopefully richer, more sagatious, healthier. Expressive in another
medium? Fantastic!
> Second, I've become less tolerant lately not only of rejection but of
> leaders who do show tango regardless of floor conditions.
Snip
> The ironic thing is these four men, because they do this acrobatic
> stuff so often and so well (being obsessed with it and practicing it
> so much), are accounted great dancers and desirable dance partners. At
> least by the majority of women, who (not having to lead) pay little
> attention to what goes on around them, ...
Face it. Tango is changing as it stays the same, and that's
generally healthy. In some venues, the nattily-suited 'older'
milongueros are totally out of place. I'm not talking about a
dancer's chronological age but more the 'era' of one's musical and
movement appreciation. The 'now' thing is to conduct 'Tango Nuevo'
classes and practicas without tango music - playing stuff like
Van Halen and other compelling but non-Argentine music. Marvelous
to push one's conceptual and technical boundaries... Great!
[...as long as they remember to *walk*, IMHO!]
But let's apply one of Larry's most crystaline observations: "Tango
as a Rorschach test". These newer dancers are projecting into their
'tango' the energy and motivations of the lives that have delivered
them to the milonga. That's the way it should be. [Milonga etiquette
will ALWAYS remain an issue, anywhere in the world. That's a tiresome
thread...] So there are at least two sides to having one's invitations
declined. Of course, our 'conformity side' stings a little and asks,
"what's wrong with me?" But our 'individuality side' gets to say, and
probably correctly, "I doubt you would have understood all that I was
going to show you."
[or... "There are guys who ride their motorcycles fast and there are
guys who like to ride slow. I don't want you aboard unless you like
my driving."]
> Whether I return to tango dancing, or turn to swing and salsa ...
> We'll see.
Whether the cry of the bandonneon, the explosive emotion of the
piano and bass, and the sweet melancholy of the strings mean jack squat
to you... We'll see.
Tango has many situational disguises. In a sequel, outside of
'Kansas' and notwithstanding your current fiber, you'll face tango
again, my pretty! ...and your little dog too... You'll flesh it out
with your projected joys and fears, appreciation for elegance, and
impatience for bullshit. Will you recognize it? That chapter isn't
yet written.
Warmly, Larry!
Frank in Minneapolis
--
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:52:40 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango
Larry de LA writes:
> I've just about dropped out of tango. It's kind of - ironic? - because
[...]
> Why? Maybe a few of you will understand.
> First, in the last year or so I've been getting more women saying no
> to my dance invitations, or saying yes and then very obviously being
> bored. I've noticed that these naysayers are more often younger women,
> so I've quit asking anyone under 30, and rarely ask anyone under 40 to
> dance with me.
I can understand your frustration with this, but rejection is
part of tango and it slaps you upside the head right from the beginning,
so at this point it seems a bit weird for you to suddenly be taking
issue with it.
> Second, I've become less tolerant lately not only of rejection but of
> leaders who do show tango regardless of floor conditions. In Los
> Angeles at the milongas I go to frequently there are four men in
> particular who are always there, and always doing very large, fast
> patterns. I'm not sure which is the most dangerous: racing about the
> floor, or spinning like a top.
> Understand, it's not show tango that is the fault. I love show tango
> figures and do them when the floor allows; a number of L.A. men do
> them. The difference is that when the floor gets crowded we slow down
> and make our figures more compact.
Amen to all this, brother. It does seem that some of the younger
dancers in certain cities have no interest whatsoever in researching,
discovering, and honoring the traditions of tango. And as we've
discussed here before, a lot of the blame belongs to many of the
Argentine instructors who come up here and teach too much show tango
and not enough social. So you wind up with young men treating the
dance floor like a mosh pit, where might makes right and he who seizes
the most space gets it, all but hand-flashing an "L" for loser at those
foolish enough to try to be polite out there.
> The ironic thing is these four men, because they do this acrobatic
> stuff so often and so well (being obsessed with it and practicing it
> so much), are accounted great dancers and desirable dance partners.
Ah, to be young and shallow in LA!
Huck
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:11:31 -0300
From: sergio suppa <cachafaz90@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Goodbye to tango
Good bye to tango...this farewell has to do with the feelings of a mature man somewhat frustrated by the rejection from young ladies. Ladies who prefer to dance with men their own age or with fellows who perform complex figures without regards to floor etiquette...he may try swing or salsa instead.
We have discussed the subject from the point of view of the ladies before. Their chances of dancing at a mature age being decreased by competition of a large number of younger women. Let's remember that people dance for many reasons...to go out, to socialize, to meet people of the opposite sex with romantic intentions, for fun or to experience the intense feeling of tango. I am sure that there are many more possible motivatiions.
Tango is unique in some way in the sense that young people do not mind dancing with older partners for "the feeling". This is more likely in the case of young girls dancing with older fellows ( many young men reserve some tangos and mostly valses for the older ladies, at least here in Argentina). They enjoy the experience because he is a good dancer who provides a unique experience. He is concious of the age difference and keeps an emotional distance of respect. The relationship, if any, is of platonic nature, limitted to the dancing moment which seldom may flourish into an exchange of confidences, poems, letters, etc always of a platonic nature. The man or woman that forgets this limitations may be exposed to rejection.
When it comes to physical attraction it is natural that people independently of their age feel inclined to approach the young, the beautiful, the successful, the good dancer, being this more intense in men than in women. The goodnes of life is that it allows all of us to play all the rolls. Babies, toddlers, teenagers, adults, sons/daughters, fathers/mothers...young and old. The secret to a happy life is to know the priviledges and limitations of every stage. There arte certain things that are natural and cannot be changed.
So forget about dancing with the ones that look bored or absent minded when in your arms, look for the others, they are still there... some of the older ladies perhaps could give you a unique experience of sensitivity and sensuous interpretation. Remember...tango belongs to everybody but mostly to the underdog who created it.
an then swing or salsa are not different in this respect. >))
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:43:15 -0300
From: SMC Administracion <adm@SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: goodbye to tango
Frank Williams wrote :
"
But let's apply one of Larry's most crystaline observations: "Tango
as a Rorschach test". These newer dancers are projecting into their
'tango' the energy and motivations of the lives that have delivered
them to the milonga. That's the way it should be."
We are working with our tango teacher , some approach to the attitude of
oneself toward tango.
The word that has been used for the last three lessons was "pride" .
Yesterday our teacher Norma comment . how this word can change , by means of
using a Thesaurus dictionary . i.e. working with the dictionary to find
synonims , and choosing one of this synonims , to a new entry for another
synonim .
It sounds weird, but the random pattern that our teacher has chosen , was
(more or less, I do not take note properly , as it was a tango lesson .. was
it ??)
Pride - vanity - arrogance - authority -power - command-mastership -
energy - motion - faith - self esteem - pride.
As you may see , the "pride" that was the starting point , ended again into
"pride" , after all this conmutations.
So , the person that enter into tango , is not the same when it moves out,
even if this person says " pride I have when I enter, pride I have at my
depart" .
Later we made with our teacher some "mirror" techniques , i.e. the man hold
the woman her waist with his left hand , not the right. And with the right
hand the left hand of the woman. Also the movements of basic steps in mirror
sequence . Soon we students founded that there is a whole world at the right
side of the woman , never walked before.
Just by chance, I have with me some poetry of Walt Whitman , and one piece
of this poetry seemed to fit in purpose for that mirror exercise and the
previous explanation of "pride", it says :
My left hand hooking you round the waist,
My right hand pointing to landscapes of continents and the public road.
Not I, not any one else can travel that road for you,
You must travel it for yourself.
It is not far, it is within reach,
Perhaps you have been on it since you were born and did not know,
Perhaps it is everywhere on water and on land.
Shoulder your duds dear son, and I will mine, and let us hasten forth,
Wonderful cities and free nations we shall fetch as we go.
If you tire, give me both burdens, and rest the chuff of your hand on my
hip,
And in due time you shall repay the same service to me,
For after we start we never lie by again.
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:23:53 -0700
From: Tango B i t c h <latangobitch@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to tango
The men say this, but women say it, also: we dance with the partners who are
fun to dance with. Perhaps it is because they are good looking or sweet, but
mostly it is because they dance well. Although there are always women who are
attracted to flash, most of us just want a competent dancer who understands the
music.
Larry, what you failed to tell us is how many private lessons you've had in the
past year; whether you've made a serious attempt to learn the different tango
styles; whether you are asking the dancers at your level; whether you are a
gracious and supportive leader.
Although some women may be selective to the point of snobbery, most of us just
want a gentleman who leads us well and genuinely appreciates the ten minutes he
spends with us. I feel apologetic that you've had such a bad time, but I hope
you realize that it can't "all" be the women's fault.
hth, and good dancing,
latb
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 21:08:45 -0400
From: Lisandro Gomez <lisandro.gomez@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango
Larry says, "I accept that young women are urgently looking for Prince
> Charming rather than Polonius, and that someone who is 60 is
> definitely on the Polonius side."
Can't say I understand the problem. In our tango place there is a 90 year
old man who comes to dance. A touch of arthritis slows him down, but I've
never seen him rejected by any woman, young or old.
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 21:55:36 -0400
From: Lisandro Gomez <lisandro.gomez@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango
Steve says,
> Dancing in a way that does not respect the ronda -- whether it is by
> backing up or jumping in and out of lanes -- is what is the most
dangerous.
> People dancing big acrobatic figures frequently do both of these things...
>
> I have been told an interesting story about a collision in New York that
> resulted when one woman, who was being led by someone who broke the ronda,
> ended up stepping on another woman's foot with her heel. The second woman
> was severely injured, and ended up with a "handsome" settlement from the
> leader who broke the ronda.
The answer to this serious problem is to wear hard hats, safety boots( with
metal toe of course- ask Fattomano for the latest in style), crotch
protector especially designed for gancho protection ( light ones for the
experienced dancer, and heavy duty ones for if you are dancing with a
beginner).Training heal guards to cover sharp stilletos are, I believe
already on the market. Devices that emit sounds when you back up should
also be imposed so as to immediately warn people that a bad dancer not
following the ronda is approaching. I also think we should have group
psychotherapy for individuals traumatized by tango accidents. Various legal
firms are offering experienced lawyers to deal with disputes and
compensation. Movie producers are looking to tell the story of someone who's
life has been permanently ruined because of an accident resulting from
ignorance of the ronda direction. Certain salons have an illuminated arrow
indicating the direction of the ronda. Yet other salons have implemented
tango police who deliver fines and arrest people who do show tango moves
during a milonga. STATS CANADA has recently released a report stating that
the rate of accidents while dancing tango has increased dramatically with
the use of cellular phones. Cell phone use while dancing should definately
not be permitted. Milongas that carelessly operate without access to
immediate medical attention should be shut down, as they represent public
health risks. I believe that insurance companies will offer way better rates
if safety devices are offered and used. All these features exemplify
characteristics of highly civilized, superior, and progressive societies. We
thank you for bringing heightened awareness of the dangers of tango to the
attention of all of us dancing.
>
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 04:09:01 -0500
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Goodbye to Tango
Dear list
>Can't say I understand the problem. In our tango place there is a 90 year
>old man who comes to dance. A touch of arthritis slows him down, but I've
>never seen him rejected by any woman, young or old.
We had the same scenerio here in the salsa scene, a man of 94, who was never
turned down by any lady he chose.
He also knows which ladies to pick, definately not the inexperienced ones.
I am one of the lucky ladies, so I can tell you with real life experience
rather than guessing the answer from afar. We dance out of respect, a.k.a.
courtesy dance.
Bibi (Chicago)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 16:29:09 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <manuel@TANGO-RIO.COM>
Subject: Who are the most popular dancers? (was: Re: Goodbye to Tango)
Interesting subject for discussion that Larry brings up. Getting
tired of
rejection and danced off the floor by show-off dancers could cause
one to
wanna give up tango or at least cut down on it a bit. The problem
is that
rejection is just part of life and not just part of the tango scene. It
seems surprising that experienced and accomplished dancers would
be running
into rejection just when they should be most desireable. I mean,
is the "old
milongueros are most desireable" paradigm already passe?
How about all the guys and girls out there waxing poetic about the
"minimalist, 3 step tango" or "passion & musicality" being the best?
What
happened to all the folks out there trying to ban boleos and sacadas
from
tango, why are they not at the milongas celebrating the old milongueros?
Larry finds rejection and amazingly the women seem to favor those
flashy,
dangerous dancers! what's the tango world come to?
I find it amusing that suddenly this comes up as a surprise. People have
been writing for years about the codes of the tango and how hard
it is for
the new dancer to get a dance. It's well known that in BsAs, you
have to get
the "cabezeo" before you get a dance and if women will not make eye
contact
with you, you'll never get to dance! Rejection and frustration have
always
been part of the tango scene. I think that in the USA, for many years
a lot
of guys have been getting a free ride just because they are men and more
scarce that women at milongas. Looks like things might be changing.
While I deplore and condemn "floor hogging" tactics and dangerous
show off
dancing in a milonga, I have to wonder if some of these guys who
dance all
kinds of firuletes, might just be pretty good dancers. They must have
something going for them or the women would not want to dance with
them, no?
I don't know how the tango scene in LA or other places is like. I've
only
had the pleasure of visiting NYC and SF of the largest tango cities
in the
USA, so I don't have a lot of exposure to the milongas there (I did
enjoy
them a lot when I was there). In Atlanta, we do not have too much
in the way
of show-off, dangerous dancing, the biggest obstacles in the dance
floor are
the less experienced dancers who do not yet know how to navigate
the floor.
We generally have pretty smooth dancing around here. I also noticed
that in
the cities where I've seen more "fancy" tango dancers, I never had much
trouble at all navigating the floor with them. There will always
be a stray
heel or a careless elbow, but generally nothing that an experienced
dancer
cannot cope with.
For now, my experience with tango has not led me to want to drop out. At
least not because of the reasons that Larry brings up. I do believe
that the
tango scene is changing and the old paradigms are no longer as valid as
before. I also think that it is very good to see a new generation
of dancers
coming along and new standards being presented. I think that the
beautiful
thing about tango is that there is a lot of diversity in it. There will
always be women out there who will like to dance with me so that
should not
become a problem ;-) As far as the fancy guys... well, may be I can
observe
and learn a trick or two, who knows, maybe the women will want to
dance with
me too.
Acceptance in tango to all,
Manuel
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 17:51:26 -0300
From: sergio suppa <cachafaz90@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Goodbye to tango
Yesterday, Sunday evening I went to the Milonga of La Glorieta de las Barrancas de Belgrano. I had been absent for about a year.
Glorieta means Gazebo. It is a beautiful one situated in the middle of a park surrounded by trees brought from all over the country many years ago. This park like most in Buenos Aires is a microcosmos of the flora as the trees are all different from each other and came from all over the nation.
After sunset the music started and people of all ages started to appear wearing heavy overcoats. Many in their twenties, many in their sixties and seventies. Couples formed and the magic of tango evolved. some started dancing with coats on, then they removed them, later pullovers and sweters went, finally they were all dancing wearing shirts and blouses. Tango dancing certainly warms the cool fall air and also the spirits.
I paid special attention to the combination older man-younger woman. They were about 40% of couples on the floor. Old man-young girl were about 20%. The men invariably were good dancers, old timers with excellent sense of music and rhythm, no extra-ordinary moves. The girls in their arms, eyes closed with an expression of peace, joy and concentration.
...it seems to me that the special magic of those old milongueros is very much alive here in Buenos Aires at least.
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:43:35 -0700
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re-Goodbye to tango
Hey Larry, your problems are popular not only in the LA milongas but all
over.
> Second, I've become less tolerant lately not only of rejection but of
> leaders who do show tango regardless of floor conditions. In Los
> Angeles at the milongas I go to frequently there are four men in
> particular who are always there, and always doing very large, fast
> patterns. I'm not sure which is the most dangerous: racing about the
> floor, or spinning like a top.
Here in Seattle we have two dancers like you describe, scaring the other
dancers, it makes me happy that we don't have four of them.
In my trip to Argentina I found a few of them, they are flashy but it
seems those show steps and racing like an ambulance around the floor are
the only way they can dance, if you watch them dancing salon style they
look like beginners.
They make tango dancing interesting and challenging, you have to be more
skilled to dance when they are around.
Elemer
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:44:15 +0200
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Re-Goodbye to tango
Listeras y Listeros!
Having read through all the answers on Larry de LA's posting on quiting
tango I am quite surprised that only one of them IMHO focused on the reasons why
LdLA "left" tango [TangoBitch's posting] but most of the rest immediatly
vanished away to other items. Does LdLA belong to the holy Grail, totally
untouchable for discussion? Sometime I get the impression.
But I won't leave it to that point and will point out my *personal* (!)
observations of the case.
LdLA:
I've just about dropped out of tango. It's kind of - ironic? - because
I've been so deeply involved with it, taking lots of lessons over the
last dozen years, dancing 2 or 3 times a week, going to Argentina,
creating and maintaining the Southern California Web site for many
years, even writing a book on how to dance tango and putting it on my
Web site.
CL:
Does 'taking lessons' automatically imply having got the point? I used to
have lessons for years ... now that I stoped having lessons for about two
years, dancing a lot focussing on the basics and trying to 'unlearn' (very
difficult) all the bad habbits aquainted (and tought) at the beginning and dancing a
lot in high quality tango-country netherlands, I am slowly (!) improving ...
perhaps being ready to finally restart taking lessons again.
Does 'dancing 2-3 times a week' automatically mean one got the point?
Does 'going to the promised land' automatically mean you ate the real manna?
Does 'maintaining a web site' means anything? [I used to have a website on
Dresden tango in the old days ... didn't mean that I had any *real* idea on
tango!]
Does 'writing a book' nowadays means anything?
LdLA:
What happened is that I've been working more and more in this last
year on writing, including writing several free-lance articles which
are now in the submission process, and ditto a novelette. I'm deep in
a science fiction novel, and six weeks ago had a compelling idea for a
female coming-of-age novel. Since then this latter novel has consumed
much of my waking time - 4 hours each week night, 8-12 hours each
weekend. I even took four days vacation time just to work on it.
CL:
What's the message in there, Larry? IMHO it comes over as a sort of 'here am
I' and 'I am doing such and such great things'. Selfpresentation, do you
perform the same manner on the dance floor / in the Milonga? A good milonguero
will not put him in the frontrow, will more act from the back, I'd guess.
[Nobody was actually asking him/herself wether you'd be putting novels on the
market soon.]
LdLA:
Why? Maybe a few of you will understand.
First, in the last year or so I've been getting more women saying no
to my dance invitations, or saying yes and then very obviously being
bored. I've noticed that these naysayers are more often younger women,
so I've quit asking anyone under 30, and rarely ask anyone under 40 to
dance with me.
CL:
Well, Larry, to be honest: If you'd be a newcomer to a local tango scene I
might follow your argumentation. BUT: You've been dancing in that area for
long ... so for me [IMHO !] this would more indicate that you should inquire
within yourself why the ladies do not like dancing with you (any more)!
Well, as far as I know usually young women like to dance with experienced,
layed back dancers. But the young ladies do not like it anymore once the older
men start to get to close. Those older men who are treating the young ladies
with charing respect usually are honored to be loved to dance with. [As a
young dancer I could get jealous to the old milongueros!]
LdLA:
This phenomena is one that happens when an activity gets large - the
activity begins to break up into age groups, and other socioeconomics
divisions. I accept that young women are urgently looking for Prince
Charming rather than Polonius, and that someone who is 60 is
definitely on the Polonius side.
CL:
Sorry, but can't follow your argumentation! Once a community gets larger
usually the newbies get in contact with the 'olders' ... and those will tell the
newcomers whom to dance with and whom not ... !
LdLA:
Still, my old reflexes from the time when everyone danced with
everyone occasionally get the best of me, and I goof up and ask
someone to dance who I should ignore. It's hard to turn off the White
Knight reflex when I see a woman, especially someone new who knows no
one at a miloga, sitting and being ignored for an hour or more.
CL:
Don't you think that "knight reflex" is a sort of self-over-estimation?
LdLA:
Second, I've become less tolerant lately not only of rejection but of
leaders who do show tango regardless of floor conditions.
CL:
Well, you own a website, you perhaps even teach. So you have got the means
to educate!
But you're absolutely right: Those dancers who do perform *their* figures
regardless the situation on the dancefloor *are* extremely anoying!
LdLA:
Understand, it's not show tango that is the fault. I love show tango
figures and do them when the floor allows; a number of L.A. men do
them. The difference is that when the floor gets crowded we slow down
and make our figures more compact.
CL:
Absolutely right: The more crowded the floor, the smaller the steps you've
got to take.
The problem with show tango: Show tango is taught by many many of the
teachers internationally known (I would not say reknown) through their tangoshows
or movies.
I've never heard of a teacher as i.e. Eric Jeurissen as a show dancer ...
but if you ever attended his milonga where more than 200 people are dancing on
a dance floor of approx. 100 m2 *without* major crashing but extreme respect
for the others you'll know that it actually *is* possible to "control" the
crowds, i.e. by giving good example. Eric teaches in the U.S. quite regulary (I
think he's in New York at the moment, has been in Denver recently), but also
U.S. teachers as i.e. Alex Krebs regulary frequent Eric's Milonga here in
the netherlands - and now the spirit and will definitly "spread the word". Take
lessons with those people, Larry!
LdLA:
Ah, good. My subconscious came up with a solution to a plot point
while I was relaxing with a good diatribe, and I'm back in high gear.
Tonight I should cross the 100,000 word mark and begin the change in
the plot arc that leads to the last scene of the book. Another four
weeks and the book should be done.
CL: What's the relation with the subject again, appart from promoting your
book? [I actually missed the (c) notice. <g>]
Perhaps one more word about your online-tango-book: As tango is a community
thing, improving through socialising and communication wherefore *sharing* is
IMHO a key word: I know that some time ago somebody send you a translation
of the book into german [at the times you were considering a check by your
lawyer first before putting in online ...] - you received the translation for
free as a gift - why don't you share it with the rest of tango community?
To end: Larry, I do *not* believe you'll seriously quit tangoeing ... but at
least you've put a long running thread up. Continue applying "tango" to your
life ... to your daily life (in all aspects, esp. love and respect). Do
further tango travels with open eyes and mind, and in this order perhaps take
into consideration travels to the netherlands to tango: High quality dancing,
respectfully in crowded places! Here they know the art of small steps, here
people go out to *dance*! And therethrough enjoy their times.
Regards
Christian
--
just my personal 50th of an Euro
christian.luethen@gmx.net
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!
GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
https://www.gmx.net
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:30:34 -0700
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango
--- "Larry E. Carroll" <larrydla@JUNO.COM> wrote:
>In Los
> Angeles at the milongas I go to frequently there
> are four men in
> particular who are always there, and always doing
> very large, fast
> patterns. I'm not sure which is the most
> dangerous: racing about the
> floor, or spinning like a top.
...
> The ironic thing is these four men, because they
> do this acrobatic
> stuff so often and so well (being obsessed with it
> and practicing it
> so much), are accounted great dancers and
> desirable dance partners. At
> least by the majority of women, who (not having to
> lead) pay little
> attention to what goes on around them, and who
> never realize how often
> and how close their partners come to injuring
> them...
Ahhhhh, the infamous Gang of Four! A group of four
hard-core show-tango exhibitionists who dream of a Los
Angeles with the most show-off form of tango on Earth.
They push for total destruction of traditional tango
ronda culture to be replaced by show-tango ideology
and culture.
Their very large, fast patterns enabled them to win
support among naive, young women. They have become the
leading forces in Tango Anti-Ronda Revolution. But
they should be reminded about the China's Gang of Four
and the Cultural Revolution which was rejected by the
Communist Party. They were sentenced to death, but
later had their sentences reduced to life in prison.
Only one member of the Gang of Four was released. The
rest died under mysterious circumstances while under
state custody.
La Ronda For Ever,
El Duke.
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 00:05:51 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: who are the most popular dancers? (was Re: Goodbye to Tango)
Interesting subject for discussion that Larry brings up. Getting tired of
rejection and danced off the floor by show-off dancers could cause one to
wanna give up tango or at least cut down on it a bit. The problem is that
rejection is just part of life and not just part of the tango scene. It
seems surprising that experienced and accomplished dancers would be running
into rejection just when they should be most desireable. I mean, is the "old
milongueros are most desireable" paradigm already passe?
How about all the guys and girls out there waxing poetic about the
"minimalist, 3 step tango" or "passion & musicality" being the best? What
happened to all the folks out there trying to ban boleos and sacadas from
tango, why are they not at the milongas celebrating the old milongueros?
Larry finds rejection and amazingly the women seem to favor those flashy,
dangerous dancers! what's the tango world come to?
I find it amusing that suddenly this comes up as a surprise. People have
been writing for years about the codes of the tango and how hard it is for
the new dancer to get a dance. It's well known that in BsAs, you have to get
the "cabezeo" before you get a dance and if women will not make eye contact
with you, you'll never get to dance! Rejection and frustration have always
been part of the tango scene. I think that in the USA, for many years a lot
of guys have been getting a free ride just because they are men and more
scarce that women at milongas. Looks like things might be changing.
While I deplore and condemn "floor hogging" tactics and dangerous show off
dancing in a milonga, I have to wonder if some of these guys who dance all
kinds of firuletes, might just be pretty good dancers. They must have
something going for them or the women would not want to dance with them, no?
I don't know how the tango scene in LA or other places is like. I've only
had the pleasure of visiting NYC and SF of the largest tango cities in the
USA, so I don't have a lot of exposure to the milongas there (I did enjoy
them a lot when I was there). In Atlanta, we do not have too much in the way
of show-off, dangerous dancing, the biggest obstacles in the dance floor are
the less experienced dancers who do not yet know how to navigate the floor.
We generally have pretty smooth dancing around here. I also noticed that in
the cities where I've seen more "fancy" tango dancers, I never had much
trouble at all navigating the floor with them. There will always be a stray
heel or a careless elbow, but generally nothing that an experienced dancer
cannot cope with.
For now, my experience with tango has not led me to want to drop out. At
least not because of the reasons that Larry brings up. I do believe that the
tango scene is changing and the old paradigms are no longer as valid as
before. I also think that it is very good to see a new generation of dancers
coming along and new standards being presented. I think that the beautiful
thing about tango is that there is a lot of diversity in it. There will
always be women out there who will like to dance with me so that should not
become a problem ;-) As far as the fancy guys... well, may be I can observe
and learn a trick or two, who knows, maybe the women will want to dance with
me too.
Acceptance in tango to all,
Manuel
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:19:46 -0400
From: Georgia Littleton <glit10go@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re-Goodbye to tango
>From: Christian Lthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
>LdLA:
>
> It's hard to turn off the White
> Knight reflex when I see a woman, especially someone new who knows no
> one at a miloga, sitting and being ignored for an hour or more.
>
>CL:
>Don't you think that "knight reflex" is a sort of self-over-estimation?
How shall I say this?...
B*I*N*G*0
Whether new, accomplished, alone, gay, depressed, proficient, struggling, or
sitting out...
I have never wanted anyone's... pity.
Don't do me any favors!
The man I want to dance with is SELFISH. He invites me because my presence
and dancing will give him pleasure and he wants it. It's so satisfying and
normal, I'm happy to receive that kind of invitation from anyone; old,
young, expert, or outright beginner.
But only from someone who respects himself, who believes he is worthy of my
acceptance, who is confidant he merits his own cultivation in his dancing,
his dress, his grooming... and his manners.
I don't feel better when someone "helps" me. I pay teachers for that.
While dancing, I like it when someone takes care of me. Self-appointed
teachers may get a certain amount of indulgence from me if I can think of
some good reason to overlook the gaff.
It doesn't happen often. Do they ever wonder why I'm always "resting"? Why
I don't greet them? I don't care. I waste exactly no time considering
them. They are too callow to understand the ugly implications: that I'm
deficient and that attention to my improvement will bring me up to a
standard which will (perhaps) garner their approval.
Aren't they, too, a little dull? And what could possibly be attractive
about that? On any level? The topic is discussed enough on this list and
everywhere socially that no one can be unaware of it. Don't teach me on the
dance floor! Yet there are dull men, or insecure ones, who don't care about
me. They care more about preserving the pretense that they are wise and
accomplished, and they believe a lecture will do more to demonstrate it to
me than a cozy embrace and an effective lead. These are men who are selfish
in a very mean way, a kind of selfishness that diminishes me, not a
selfishness that praises and dignifies me.
Real gentlemen appreciate me. If they are rare or busy with other partners,
that's okay. I would rather sit out an entire evening than return home
feeling low after one dance with a White Knight who felt sorry for me or a
"teacher" who wanted to "help" me be a better dancer.
That's what Georgia says.
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 01:46:47 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re-Goodbye to tango
Friends,
This is all meant to stimulate discussion in a friendly way.
Any similarity to the REAL Georgia and Frank is purely accidental!
Here's the setup - the question is below.
> Don't do me any favors!
...pretty sure of yourself, aren't you? Cool. Let's PRETEND
that I'm allot more experienced than you. What if I invite you
for a tanda and your following during the first song is, oh,
maybe, self absorbed? ...a little too... MUCH! ...technically
flawed in little ways that limit my leading. ...but of course,
you are gorgeous, you smell wonderful, and I wouldn't mind
taking you after the milonga for an omelet. You still have
my attention. But after a first song that was little more than
perfunctory, if we're going to make ANYTHING but chopped liver
out of the tanda then it's time for a change. What do YOU want?
> I don't feel better when someone "helps" me. I pay teachers for that.
> While dancing, I like it when someone takes care of me.
[Again, this is pretend but the situation arises all the time...]
Without a word I can 'take care' to show you if you are
anticipating, or that you're hanging on me, or that you can't
feel and respond to the energy in my leads with that posture...
I can even take you through something that you flubbed using
an easier tempo, then try it again later full speed. Would that
be annoying?
There are SO many cases where normal dance situations are didactic.
What is 'ungenerous' and what is 'challenging'? If I merely lead
a little (wooden!) 'showcase' for you am I doing you a favor or not?
> Aren't they, too, a little dull? And what could possibly be attractive
> about that? On any level?
Since bad following can be as dull as bad leading, my imaginary tanda
with Georgia is quickly spiraling into a clash of egos. [Too bad, I
was hoping to be invited to her place to meet her cats. ;-) ]
...now for real...
My REAL question to Georgia and the list: What exactly is and what
is not 'teaching' in the milongas? Clearly, dancing with somebody
better than ourselves is instructive - we all know that. So, where
and when does the ego get bruised? Stopping to re-establish a decent
frame? Coaxing a more comfortable frame with one's arms? [Poor
follower's posture can cramp up even a healthy back! I am direct
about this - that the wrong frame can spoil my whole evening due
to back pain, hence the adjustments are 'to help me'.] My opinion?
No stopping longer than a parada and no discussion about mistakes.
But some followers can be VERY touchy about leads, expecting
leaders to forego enjoying their role and to dance at the damsel's
level.
White Knights - damned if they do and damned if they don't...
Cheers all,
Frank - Mpls.
[Georgia, I hope you're a good sport!]
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:38:47 -0400
From: Maria Lemus <mlemus@THE-BEACH.NET>
Subject: Re: Re-Goodbye to tango
Hello all,
It seems that the very nature of this dance requires that every new partner
break one's comfort zone to a certain extent, regardless of whether you are
a leader or a follower. That perfect sympatico and that perfect timing
doesn't happen with everyone, right? And sometimes it doesn't happen
immediately. How can tango possibly be neutral and consistent from one
person to another? That's the challenge and beauty of this ... each partner
provides a whole new world, personality, communication.
I understand Georgia's point. I still consider myself a newbie and I would
rather not have a 'consolation tango' and I certainly don't want 'chopped
liver tango' either! (Good one, Frank ;-).
But ... there are some leaders who have offered some tips merely with a few
brief comments, accommodated my level and made for some very enjoyable
tangos. I guess they must enjoy dancing with me because they come back, but
the one thing these types of leaders have in common is that their dances
aren't as ego-driven. And then there are some leaders who act as if I am
supposed to live up to some princess in the tower expectation of theirs
(back to the White Knight theme). Their approach is so aggressive and
self-centered. One just feels this intuitively and you can sense it in
their moves. Way too much pressure. How about just enjoying what each
partner has to offer, enjoying the moment? For pete's sake ... sometimes a
dance is just a dance! And if it isn't 'working out,' well then, end the
dance politely when the song is over and move on.
Bottom line: the minute ego gets involved, it's no longer dance.
Best regards
Maria
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:35:42 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <manuel@TANGO-RIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Re-Goodbye to tango
The discussion of LdLA's disenchantment with tango has turned to
the virtues and vices of "white knighthood" and the problems of "teaching"
on the dance floor at milongas. That's all well and good, those are
good topics and probably very applicable to those who bring them
up.
I would like to bring up another facet to this discussion, namely
why we get and stay involved in tango. I did it for the fun of it.
I really like tango and thoroughly enjoy dancing to the 4x4 rhythm.
The only reason for me to keep participating in tango is because
I enjoy it. I guess one could say that the positive outweights the
negative. If the hassles and problems with tango begin to outnumber
or outweight the positive and the enjoyment, I will like LdLA, get
out of the scene.
Maria opined that she enjoyed a man who was "selfish" in his reasons
to ask her to dance. I think she hit the nail on the proverbial head.
I know that when I ask someone to dance, I'm pretty sure I'm going
to enjoy dancing with her. I've already watched her dance or probably
already have danced with her in the past. Also, the feeling is mutual,
otherwise the dance would not be enjoyable. If I ever find myself
not enjoying the vast majority of my dances, or I cannot find partners
to dance with (highly unlikely since my life and dance partner is
my favorite ;-))I will probably seriously consider staying away from
the tango scene too.
Manuel
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:49:22 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re-Goodbye to tango
Friends,
> [Too bad, I
> was hoping to be invited to her place to meet her cats. ;-) ]
Hit the "HOT BUTTON", did I?!?! What firestorm would have fallen
if I had written "PET her cats"! ;-) It was all fiction!!!
...sorry if this little wise crack detracted from my straight-faced
point for writing:
Now, seriously...
> What exactly is and what is not 'teaching' in the milongas?
Your opinions earnestly solicited!
All my best,
Frank in Minneapolis
PS ...but I'm always happy to hear from you...
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:57:16 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Re-Goodbye to tango
Frank Williams wrote:
>White Knights - damned if they do and damned if they don't...
The ideal of the white knight is purity of intent, i.e. egoless. In
reality, most who represent themselves as white knights can have quite a
bit of ego--as some posts have made quite evident. The self-appointed
white knights see themselves as offering newcomers an opportunity to dance
with more experienced dancers (and receive a little bit of guidance,
teaching, whatever). In fact, some of these knights may have a bit of
trouble getting more experienced dancers to dance with them, and frequently
have to move on to newer and newer newcomers... Consequently, it is
sometimes difficult to see the difference between the white knights and
those who prey on newcomers who are too inexperienced to avoid them...
There is a simple and observable scorecard: the amount of ego involved is
inversely correlated with the knight's purity of intent.
As Maria Lemus observed:
>Bottom line: the minute ego gets involved, it's no longer dance.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
A noncommercial online resource with information about Argentine tango
including reviews of instructional videos, guides to tango music, articles
about learning and dancing tango, and extensive links.
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:50:32 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Re-Goodbye to tango
Among the relatively few tango subjects that matter to me, some are
inherently difficult. Examples: walk / mouvement / balance technique; musical
interpretation; idiomatic development; vocabulary building.
Others are readily understandable to anyone not seriously impaired, but have
been made arcane and convoluted because poor approaches have become
ingrained. Examples: the ronda; understanding of authentic (i.e., social,
widely shared) contemporary ways of dancing; appropriateness of one's dance
to the conditions in the dance space.
Others are fairly difficult, though not transcendental. Examples: connection
/ embrace; awareness of, and consonance with, other dancers around.
Others are of greatly varying difficulty, depending on factors such as the
social and psychological "quotient" and life-long accumulated savvy of the
dancer (woman or man). In all but hopeless cases, the difficulties in
question eventually yield to experience, trial and error, the school of hard
knocks, a pair of open eyes. Examples:
what, when, how much, with whom or what, to study and practice;
where and when to go do tango;
how to fix oneself for the various occasions;
how to avoid turn-offs;
how to inculturate into the customs and manners at each tango location;
how to ask for a dance, when, and of whom;
whose invitations to accept, and whose to decline, and how;
how to handle rejections, or a "sitting bath";
how to minimize the chances of such outcomes, if it matters;
how to project availability and non-availability;
how to have the best possible time at a milonga, given one's manifold
assets and liabilities;
how to have a selfish grand time while being also amiable, civilized,
courteous, respectful, sensitive to the human landscape, even generous in a
non-insulting way;
how to create and appreciate (as a man, or as a woman!) an enjoyable dance
at almost any skill level, on the best surface in town, or on a pavement of
gravel.
And then there are Really Easy Things. Just one example: understand that
there must be NO unsolicited teaching, and the Devil only knows about
solicited.
Shall we establish the base line from which the very (very) rare exception
that all principles are entitled to may be, maybe (maybe), considered? Here
is my idea of the base line.
NO teaching (of either sex by either sex) in milongas / parties, EVEN BY
TEACHERS or by that visiting famous master.
NO teaching in practicas, unless you have been engaged to guide the
practica, or assigned by the leader to help some willing subject.
NO teaching in group classes, unless you are one of the teachers of that
class, or have been asked to come in and assist in that particular way.
NO teaching in seminars / work shops, celebrity ones or others.
NO unsolicited teaching in mano-a-mano practices, even between partners of
significantly different skill.
(I think that teaching in lobbies, corridors, elevators, and other public
spaces is not strictly prohibited. Teaching on the streets can be quite
exciting.)
But now, what is teaching, exactly? It is what teachers do. Some common
synonyms. Instruction. Help. Advice. Guidance. Explanations. Telling how to.
(Telling how not to.) Demonstrating with running subtitles.
Things recognizable as proper leads, or cleverly disguised as such, are
normally exempt. (Back leading is a whole separate subject matter.) What
about coaxing through non-verbal communication? After a lot of experience, a
man can, subtly, induce a better frame, sometimes, or inspire a less skilled
woman to move in a more controlled way. Is it cleverly disguised, appearing
no different from regular leading? Fine, and I hope it does so appear to the
woman. To manhandle a woman to avoid having to simplify the dance to a level
that "she can handle"? Not a good idea. (In a sense it is the man who cannot
handle it.) I will say that non-verbal coaching is a temptation I try to
resist, but forgive myself for occasionally.
After accepting the above extremist views without hidden reservations, one
can start thinking of carefully worded exceptions relating to special
situations. It is always safe not to do it at all.
Ciao,
PS - I get advice only from teachers in their classes or practicas,
beginners, and perennially improvement-resistant dancers. Some well known
tango ... personalities think that teaching is the ultimate outrage, but only
if they are the victims. Their own teaching is OK. Heck, no, it is wonderful.
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 22:26:28 -0700
From: david hodgson <tangoman7@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re-Goodbye to tango
I want to say that I have been watching much on this
list from afar and making my comments every so often.
I applaud you in your disition. Not in choosing to
step away (for that community and Tango will be
missing a very passionate and active dancer) but in
following what you feel strongly about.
I would have to agree with you about what some of the
dancers are doing with the show/fantasia/nuevo Tango
styles (Yes I am aware each is an individual style). I
like each of these styles a lot and do incorporate the
elements not only into the pieces I have danced
onstage with but also on the dance floor. I applaud
Fabian and Gustavo for being instrumental in
developing Nuavo Tango. Having met Fabian he is a good
teacher, dancer and person.
However (and my comment is the same as others) I do
all I can to respect the space I have to work with.
As far as pointing the finger at the traveling
teachers. Generally they have to cater to what sells,
and for a lot of Americans that tends to be flashy
moves.
Concerning being rejected I have met several older
gentlemen that often dance with women of a wide range
of ages. I am not sure what is happening in your area,
but the general idea I have seen is that most every
body tends to dance with every one else here. If I am
turned down for a dance, it is not personal, I judge
it not. Perhaps she is resting or perhaps she just
does not want to dance with me, big deal. I will
simply say thank you and ask another.
Having been a long time dancer I will finish by saying
that The door of the dance hall is open if you wish to
return, though I will assume you may simply find Tango
in the beat of your own heart.
David~
=====
I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.
-Groucho Marx-
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 21:31:42 -0700
From: "Larry E. Carroll" <larrydla@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango?
I had so many emails on this that I can't answer them individually. So
let me thank you here for your thoughtful reply, which I read and
appreciated a lot.
Three months into a tango-less life I still can't imagine ever wanting
to dance the tango again. Intellectually I am sure I will, that this is
a temporary phenomenon, but emotionally I cannot feel it.
So I am setting myself a test. Here in Los Angeles in a few weeks there
is going to be a weeklong tango conference (TANGO FIREWORKS 2002,
www.apurotango.com). It will happen during the July 4th week, starting
the Friday before (June 28th).
There will be nine milongas, one for each night. This includes the first
Friday, a sort of informal, relaxed welcome-to-LA dance. The last two
will be formal, with a live orchestra (Color Tango). The very last (the
Gala) will include performances by the teachers, including the likes of
Milena & Ezequial and Carlos & Alicia. I intend to go to several,
especially the last two.
I also expect to meet some of you, who I have known only from your
emails. If all of that does not get me back in the mood for tango, I
cannot imagine what will.
In occasional moments, I have been idly thinking about the reasons for
tango burnout. I do not mean the falling away that we are all familiar
with the boy/girl friend dragged to milongas, the mate-seekers hoping
this new venue that is described as so sexy will pay off in a bed-mate,
and so on. I mean fanatics like you and me (who has spent almost
thirteen years studying and dancing and obsessing about tango).
Some of the reasons are likely general. Others are purely personal.
Thinking about my original message I detect the whine of self-pity,
probably the result of just turning one of the Big Ten Birthdays. Even
as I write I feel a couple more complaints coming on.
Like, how come in all the years that I have been putting out my Web
site, including L.A. events and milongas, and I have only once been
offered free entrie into a milonga? (I turned it down; I know how much
work goes into putting one on.) Only two or three times have I even
gotten a thank you. (And do not send me one now; it is way too late!)
And how come I so rarely get a compliment about my dancing? Maybe two or
three a year, and none of those from the very best dancers. Am I that
boring, despite the thirteen years of hard (but usually happy) work? Or
is competence something to be taken for granted? Or am I just too
insensitive to read the subliminal messages?
Like that. Finer whines than Fran Drescher's "Nanny" ever gave.
But there are some reasons that I think most of us sometimes feel. Tango
is the easiest dance in the world to begin, what with the core "step" of
tango being the walk. And with the leader creating different rhythms
rather than a set rhythm being ordained by custom as in all other social
dances which means that almost any rhythm the leader adopts can be
thought the right one.
But it is the hardest social dance to master, because it has depth.
First it segues into show-tango techniques. And when we master those and
think we know it all, it unexpectedly morphs (for those of us who really
master it rather than fooling ourselves) back into utter simplicity and
sublime elegance.
It gets very discouraging for some of us to see that there is no end to
learning tango. And it can be Hell when we reach the periodic plateau in
our learning and it seems we are not only NOT IMPROVING, we are getting
WORSE!
Another reason paradoxical as it seems, given what I have just said
is that when you get really good, everything can seem old hat. Part of
this is that just doing a "step" is not enough. Once you master
something so that it becomes automatic (as easy as breathing or
speaking) you have to do more than perform it mechanically for it to be
fun.
For instance, I must have had the old rubbing-her-leg-down-mine done to
me hundreds (thousands?) of times. Most of the time her attitude is
obviously "Oh, aren't I clever to do one of these sexy tango moves?" And
I could be an elephant or an uncle for all she cares about me. Instead I
want to see a mischievous gleam in her eye as she looks at me. Or a
seductive smile. Or a chuckle of sly complicity, not because we care
romantically about each other, but because we are dear friends just
having a great time together.
And surely there are other reasons that you can supply. But now the
Siren call of THE BOOK calls me back to it. My subconscious has solved a
problem that hung me up, while I have been dribbling away here.
Larry de Los Angeles
https://home.att.net/~larrydla
PS. I am getting no financial or other rewards from TANGO FIREWORKS. I
am not even friends with the organizers, though we don't seem to be
enemies (this month)!
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 23:44:03 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango?
Larry Carroll wrote:
>For instance, I must have had the old rubbing-her-leg-down-mine done to
>me hundreds (thousands?) of times.
In a recent workshop I attended, the instructors included this
embellishment among those that are considered out of fashion in Buenos
Aires. They described some steps and embellishments as being from the 80s
or 90s. They described the leg rub as never having been in fashion. They
said it was really an insult to the man for a woman to polish her shoe on
his pants.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:24:00 -0700
From: david hodgson <tangoman7@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango?
It is just as much so to show the bottom of your shoes
to another dancer, according to a few of the older
"Tanguero's".
D~
> Stephen Brown wrote:
> In a recent workshop I attended, the instructors
> included this
> embellishment among those that are considered out of
> fashion in Buenos
> Aires. They described some steps and embellishments
> as being from the 80s
> or 90s. They described the leg rub as never having
> been in fashion. They
> said it was really an insult to the man for a woman
> to polish her shoe on
> his pants.
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
> Stephen Brown
> Tango Argentino de Tejas
> https://www.tejastango.com/
=====
It is said that films are as reflections of real life......
I will then need to see My Friend Flicka again.
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 08:07:07 -0400
From: Maria Lemus <mlemus@THE-BEACH.NET>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango?
See what happens when the man wears the pants? And how do we polish the
left shoe? ;-)
>
>> Stephen Brown wrote:
>> In a recent workshop I attended, the instructors
>> included this
>> embellishment among those that are considered out of
>> fashion in Buenos
>> Aires. They described some steps and embellishments
>> as being from the 80s
>> or 90s. They described the leg rub as never having
>> been in fashion. They
>> said it was really an insult to the man for a woman
>> to polish her shoe on
>> his pants.
>>
>> With best regards,
>> Steve
>>
>> Stephen Brown
>> Tango Argentino de Tejas
>> https://www.tejastango.com/
>
>
> =====
> It is said that films are as reflections of real life......
> I will then need to see My Friend Flicka again.
>
>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:17:24 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Goodbye to Tango?
Larry de LA writes:
> So I am setting myself a test. Here in Los Angeles in a few weeks there
> is going to be a weeklong tango conference (TANGO FIREWORKS 2002,
> www.apurotango.com). It will happen during the July 4th week, starting
> the Friday before (June 28th). [...]
>
> I also expect to meet some of you, who I have known only from your
> emails.
Good, see you there!
> PS. I am getting no financial or other rewards from TANGO FIREWORKS.
I believe you, Larry, the quality of the faculty assembled for
this event speaks for itself (not to mention the extra treat of Color
Tango for two nights). I went last year and can vouch that it was
very well organized -- I had a great time.
Huck
