3163 Leaders Listening
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:09:30 -0500
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Leaders Listening
A friend who only reads the archives asked me to post this on the list:
The discussion of leaders "responding" is what I would really like to
see! It is unbelievable what difference in dancing it makes when I feel
that the leader understands and responds to my movement rather than
following his own agenda.
And here's my follow-up question:
Leaders, what do you "listen" to? And how?
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:28:40 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Leaders listening
I think that it is very simple: The leader leads, allows time for the
follower to execute the moves led and if he wishes then he allows extra time
for her to express herself in the form of embellishments .
Problems are: the leader proposes a move and does not allow enough time for
the lady to finish it. He leads something else in the mid of her executing a
step.
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:01:24 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
HMMM! What do I listen to? I listen to my partner collecting her weight so
that I know 1)she finished the step and 2)know which foot is free to move
for the next step. When I lead a boleo, I listen for her to finish the
boleo because she might tack on an adornment and if I move too soon, I'll
throw her off balance.
And then, there's the complete surprise of interleading. Interleading,
exquisitely taught by Virginia Kelly, an Argentine living in New York, is
when the woman signals to the man, "Don't move. I want to do something."
While I was in New York last week, I swept my partner's foot. After the
sweep, I lead her to step over the foot. But she didn't move and sent me a
signal I shouldn't move. She then swept my foot that swept her foot. It
was a surprise. But then, Daniel Trenner said "There's no security in
tango." Another example of interleading is a woman stepping over the man's
foot and dragging it.
If you're interested in interleading, hopefully it will taught at the New
York tango festival in July. If you can't wait, Virginia's web page is
www.virginiakelly.com
During my recent trip to Florida, I danced with a New Yorker who softly
pulled me closer into her. All I heard was her heart -- or was it mine?
Michael Ditkoff
Shovelling snow on cross feet
Washington, DC
> A friend who only reads the archives asked me to post this on the list:
>
> The discussion of leaders "responding" is what I would really like to
see! It is unbelievable what difference in dancing it makes when I feel
that the leader understands and responds to my movement rather than
following his own agenda.
>
> And here's my follow-up question:
>
> Leaders, what do you "listen" to? And how?
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:17:31 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
To begin with, the leader _always_ listens and should always have an
"agenda" - otherwise he wouldn't be able to lead (I should specify here that
I am talking about tango dancing, not tango wrestling).
The most obvious example of follower's expressing herself (choosing the
pace) while leader is _mostly_ listening is this: from the simple sandwich
(parallel feet) follower steps in front with her left foot over the leader's
right foot. Even in this step leader pursues an "agenda" and leads it.
However I often lead it at the beginning of the musical phrase letting
follower to choose the pace and the foot brush (optional) in response to the
music.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
22 days till Valentango
>From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
>Reply-To: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Leaders Listening
>Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:09:30 -0500
>
>A friend who only reads the archives asked me to post this on the list:
>
>The discussion of leaders "responding" is what I would really like to
>see! It is unbelievable what difference in dancing it makes when I feel
>that the leader understands and responds to my movement rather than
>following his own agenda.
>
>And here's my follow-up question:
>
>Leaders, what do you "listen" to? And how?
>
>
>As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at
>
>
>Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:21:45 -0500
From: Darya Kucherova <kucherova@ROGERS.COM>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
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d2lsbCBiZSBtdWNoIGFwcHJlY2lhdGVkIQ0K
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:44:29 -0800
From: Svetlana Didorenko <svetlanadi@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
There is yet another way of "leader listening" which I only learned from
Glenn Corteza, after almost two years of learning and having never heard of
it before. And you are right - it is not just waiting.
He mentioned to some leaders - it is not her movement that's a copy of
yours, it is the other way around.
Basically, his statement was that leading a step involves a simple sequence
of leading (usually by movement of leader's spine/torso), seeing that the
follower initiates the step, then copying her move (matching her step in
both size and time). This is the only way for the leaders to ensure that
both in the couple step at the same time and perfectly to the music. The
leader cannot make a step and expect a follower to copy it. This will
probably result in a slight delay. So, it has to be the other way around.
This is the first time that someone explained to me how the leaders are also
followers. I'm not sure this is what you were after, but this is how I, as a
follower, perceive this aspect of leading which absolutely makes sense.
Good analogy Glenn used - yo-yo. You send it out, and then you receive it -
just like a step, you send her foot out with your body, and receive it by
your own step.
Svetlana.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Leaders Listening
>
> I have to say, my expectations from this very promising subject were
rather larger. Meaning, I do not equate "listening" with "waiting."
"Listening" includes "waiting," but as I can see from those leaders whose
tangos drive me into ecstasy, it's way more than that. I can only
communicate the follower's perspective, which lacks the exact knowledge of
how the effect is achieved, but what it feels like is... Is that my own
dedication, commitment, patience, and tuning in to most intricate movements
in my partner's body are met with the same interest and enthusiasm. It is
great, when my partener is sharing his understanding of the music, but when
he is also listening and showing interest in what goes on with me, it feels
like he is reading into my understanding and response to the music; then it
turns into wholly another tango - experience which lies beyond "good,"
"nice," or "lovely." Possibly, because we travel deeper into the jungles of
mutual feeling ;-)))) I really wonder what and how it happens, all ideas
will be much appreciated!
>
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:26:49 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
Darya wrote:
>I have to say, my expectations from this very promising subject were
>rather larger... <and so on on tango connection, trance, zone etc.>
Ah, then the answer is simple: Magic!
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Darya Kucherova" <kucherova@ROGERS.COM>
>To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:21 PM
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Leaders Listening
>
>
> >
> > I have to say, my expectations from this very promising subject were
>rather larger. Meaning, I do not equate "listening" with "waiting."
>"Listening" includes "waiting," but as I can see from those leaders whose
>tangos drive me into ecstasy, it's way more than that. I can only
>communicate the follower's perspective, which lacks the exact knowledge of
>how the effect is achieved, but what it feels like is... Is that my own
>dedication, commitment, patience, and tuning in to most intricate movements
>in my partner's body are met with the same interest and enthusiasm. It is
>great, when my partener is sharing his understanding of the music, but when
>he is also listening and showing interest in what goes on with me, it feels
>like he is reading into my understanding and response to the music; then it
>turns into wholly another tango - experience which lies beyond "good,"
>"nice," or "lovely." Possibly, because we travel deeper into the jungles of
>mutual feeling ;-)))) I really wonder what and how it happens, all ideas
>will be much appreciated!
> >
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:21:12 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
--- Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
Ah, then the answer is simple: Magic!
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Magic it is, but simple it is not.
I think the followers who have responded are bravely
exploring the depths of this idea, while the leaders
have just mucked about in the shallows. I think the
followers know when they are participating in a tango
dialog, and when they are attending a lecture. I'd
like to hear from more followers about leaders
listenening.
Sean
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:32:09 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
>
> Magic it is, but simple it is not.
>
> I think the followers who have responded are bravely
> exploring the depths of this idea, while the leaders
> have just mucked about in the shallows. I think the
> followers know when they are participating in a tango
> dialog, and when they are attending a lecture. I'd
> like to hear from more followers about leaders
> listenening.
>
> Sean
>
When a woman touches a man, she knows very well whether he is "there" or
not. This applies to tango, hand shakes, kissing, love making, and of
course, to conversation too. If you go back to that posting by Jackie (Ling?
Ong?) a while ago, and follow the link to her homepage to the interview with
Antonio Cervila junior, read what he has to say about that -for some men,
tango is just a way to express themselves on the dancefloor (translate that
into showing off) in complete disregard of the woman they are dancing with.
For some, the woman is just an accessory to their dance, a dummy to be moved
around while they are the ones acting out. The woman, of course, feels
exactly what the man is doing. And the man- well- he is unfortunately
missing out on the depth of the tango experience, on the opportunity of
creating a beatiful dance by showing off the *woman* he is dancing with and
make her look beautiful on the dance floor in her own way, creating a
delightful experience for her, for both of them and for the people who are
watching.
Once, a tanguera from Buenos Aires told me:"When I watch men on the dance
floor, trying to decide who I want to dance with, which man is a good tango
dancer, I do not look at the man- I watch the moves and face of the follower
!"
Astrid
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:12:46 -0500
From: Darya Kucherova <kucherova@ROGERS.COM>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:52:34 -0800
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
Followers, what do they really want? always curious..thanks Darya, Svetlana, Astrid....
I have not danced tango for that long, nevertheless my feeling is leaders cannot hope to create a memorable dance by simply DOING a, b and c. The key is like someone pointed out, is to BE there and more importantly BE the dance, I hope I am not causing confusion with this languaging.
This requires that dancers "stop thinking", which may not be that easy in general. However Music and a sensitive physical contact can be great help. Like Darya pointed out genarally tango teaching is focussed on physical side not so much on not so trivial psychological or emotional domain. Of course music is the dancers best friend, when the 2 dancers listen to the music and feel the say way and each emphasize the same feeling in the other, it has a cyclic effect and ultimately it seems there are no two dancers any more and its hard to tell who leads and who follows. And you know you had a great dance when all you remember is the experience and not steps you danced. It seems time stopped for 3 minutes;).
Darya Kucherova <kucherova@ROGERS.COM> wrote:
Thanks to Sean, Michael, Svetlana and Astrid for your postings - I have already started wondering if "leaders listening" was a phantome of my imagination. What Svetlana said about Glenn Corteza and Michael - of Virginia Kelly was indeed inspiring - the fact that this "listening" may and has to be taught. What I have said about followers earlier seems to apply to leaders, too, in the sense that half of the preparation is psychological, and there are even teachers who instruct in this approach. I have only met one instructor so far who would understand the psychological domain of both followers and leaders' dancing and give the essential preparation for apporaching a mutually sensitive dance - Robert Hauk (big fan here!). It is inspiring to know there are listening leaders not least for selfish reasons :-))) As I am working on my techique and trying to be more and more understanding, responsive and sensitive to my leaders, it is great to know that there is somone equally learning to be
responsive to me.
responsively,
Darya
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:10:06 -0800
From: David <pachelbels_canon_in_d_major@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
Well said Mr. Logic :)
> I have not danced tango for that long, nevertheless my feeling is
> leaders cannot hope to create a memorable dance by simply DOING a, b
> and c. The key is like someone pointed out, is to BE there and more
> importantly BE the dance, I hope I am not causing confusion with this
> languaging.
>
> This requires that dancers "stop thinking", which may not be that
> easy in general. However Music and a sensitive physical contact can
> be great help.
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:48:03 -0800
From: obscure bardo <obscurebardo@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leaders Listening
This is such an important area to explore and one that seems so
difficult to put into words.
Dance as a conversation between two people. For it to be a
conversation there must be listening and expressing. What is the
subject? The performance of steps is one. I can imagine a situation of
seduction as another. The subject that I wish to address is the
feelings experienced in the music the partners are dancing to.
So the first listening is to the music. Both partners listening to the music.
The next listening included with this is both partners listening to
themselves, to their feeling response as the melody flows. By
listening and being opening and allowing themselves to feel the
changes in the melody, the shifts in the mood they allow their bodies
to express in breathing, quality of movement, and attitude the subtle
qualities of what they are feeling,
The third listening is listening to these expressive qualities in the
partners embrace, breathing, tensings and releasings, and movement.
We "hear" the quality of our partners touch and response and we
respond. It is a conversation. And we began to speak this non verbal
conversation in infancy. It may be our most native language.
Does the music inspire a sense of light joy in me? Does my partner
respond in a way that I sense she too feels this joy in the music? Do
I respond in a way that says "yes, I hear your joy"? Does she respond
in an affirmation of pleasure that we both shared this? Does then the
music grow more somber and our mood shifts and we find our bodies feel
subtly different as our feelings change? Not only how my body feels to
myself but how she feels to me.
These are the listenings, simultaneous heard that carry meaning. There
is especially when learning technique the need to listen for technical
information, axis, weight, impetus, etc. But if that is all dancing
ever was, I would not be dancing for I find it sadly empty and
meaningless. Only when the technique is used unconsciously by the
dancers as they share and communicate their feelings in the music in
the moment does dancing become something that I long to do and find
rewarding.
To not listen to your partner is to lose the meaning and satisfaction
of sharing the music with another in the dance. And this sharing is
available even using the most basic of walks as long as both partners
listen and are willing to be open to one another in this conversation.
There is much more I could say on this topic but I think this is as
succinct an expression of the crux of what dancing with a partner
means to me.
Peace,
Jonathan Thornton
