1840  Milonguero vs. Salon at milongas

Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:15:02 -0500
From: Riccardo Fanciulli <riccardo@PHYSICS.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Milonguero vs. Salon at milongas

Hello Tango-L,

after reading the explanation about the different styles by Sergio
"Cachafaz" I felt like I finally had to ask a question that had been
occupying my mind in the past months....

Let's say that here in the US we have mainly two styles, Milinguero (as
danced by Tete, always closed position, not too many firuletes, designed
for crowded milongas) and the Salon (as danced by Naveira, variable
embrace, figures that require more space and that would "clog" the line of
dance in a crowded milonga).
I'll tell you upfront that I like both, but have a distinctive preference
for what I just called Salon.

As Sergio was saying (and I also experienced) the Salon style seems to be
more appealing than the Milonguero to younger generations and is being
taught more and more around the US.

Now, coming to my question...

Are there milongas that are organized having in mind this "Salon" style of
tango at all?
Here is an example of what I'm saying:
Last week there was a beautiful workshop in Atlanta taught by Gustavo
Naveira (i.e. Salon tango). All the participants seemed to enjoy the
teaching and the style very much and at the end of the day we were all
happy and exhausted. Every night(*) for the duration of the w/shop
milongas were organized and every night the music and the floor wouldn't
allow anybody (anybody!) to dance the steps we were learning during the
day.

It feels like... "Ok kids, play with your big steps, dream of the stage
tango during the day, but at night... let's get serious and dance the only
true tango".
I'm not saying that it's necessarily like that, I'm only expressing a
personal feeling and asking for feedback.

And don't get me wrong, the example in Atlanta was just one of many, just
what seems to be normality.

Here comes another issue (part of the same initial one actually): what
music do we play at milongas?
Not every piece is good for dancing milonguero as not every piece is good
for dancing salon style. You can dance milonguero or salon on everything,
sure, but the results are not as good.
In my little experience it seems that at milongas (I'm talking of the US)
tangos with a strong and very regular beat are the rule (more suitable for
milonguero style), while music like Pugliese's (and some Piazzolla, yes!)
is hardly played at all and usually towards the last 15 min of the
milonga.
I may be wrong here, but... that's why I'm writing, to hear how things are
in places that I haven't been at :) ... give me some hope!

Finally, I would like to say that I fully understand that organizers that
strongly prefer milonguero style will "DJ" their milongas with music
suitable for that style. No problem, but many instructors are teaching
salon style to attract younger generations (but not only for those,
mainly, because it's more catchy for an outsider) and then still organize
their weekly milongas with music not really suitable for what they
teach... or not?

I'm really curious to see if I'm the only one that had the same feeling of
(mild) frustration...

Thanks for reading this!

- Riccardo

PS: By the way, the event that just took place in Atlanta with Gustavo
Naveira and Giselle Anne and organized by Manuel and Ronda Patino was
simply beautiful. Everything was organized very well and Mr. Naveira
(besides being a great teacher) performed four songs that left all of us
breathless.Thanks Ronda and Thanks Manuel !!!

(*) The first night the DJ was Gustavo Naveira himself, but I wasn't able
to attend. Anybody who was there can tell me something about his choice of
the music?

Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:11:36 +0200
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: part 1 ... Re: Milonguero vs. Salon at milongas

sorry, have to reply through 2 postings ...
... listserv rejects long answers, have to cut into 2 parts.


part 1:


hola riccardo, hola list.

no frustration, but joy, that's what I experience during my tango-
outs ... to start with the end of riccardo's posting.


interesting enough, esp. with all those name-giving to styles and
everything: until now I had a total different perception of the
style,
more or less opposite to how you just described them. :-?


On 27 Sep 2003 at 11:15, Riccardo Fanciulli wrote:

> Let's say that here in the US we have mainly two styles, Milinguero
> (as danced by Tete, always closed position, not too many firuletes,
> designed for crowded milongas) and the Salon (as danced by Naveira,
> variable embrace, figures that require more space and that would
> "clog" the line of dance in a crowded milonga). I'll tell you
> upfront that I like both, but have a distinctive preference for what
> I just called Salon.

Hmm, from my experience here in the netherlands I would call the Tete
style 'Salon' ... . Do not know whether I'd really name Naveira's
style 'Milonguero' as this for me stands more for a style where the
couple is leaning more or less against each other - in opposite to
'Salon' where both persons of the couple stronly maintain there own
axis! The way you described it Naveira's style seems to me more being
some 'tango de espectaculo'.

> As Sergio was saying (and I also experienced) the Salon style seems
> to be more appealing than the Milonguero to younger generations and
> is being taught more and more around the US.

Hmm, reading this I ask myself whether I really should dare to dance
in the US within a fortnight. =:-?

I would not agree that this is really a generation problem for the
show off factor ('appealing') but perhaps with the very young a
problem with the close embrace ... youngsters aren't really
experienced anymore in touching each others. [I could imagine that
that extreme close contact could also be a socialisation problem in a
country with a lot of 'don'ts' and 'tabus'. [?]

> Now, coming to my question...
>
> Are there milongas that are organized having in mind this "Salon"
> style of tango at all?

Definitely a question of space on the floor. Expressive dancing is
not
possible on a crowded floor ... at least not if the couples are
respecting each others.

> Here is an example of what I'm saying: Last
> week there was a beautiful workshop in Atlanta taught by Gustavo
> Naveira (i.e. Salon tango). All the participants seemed to enjoy the
> teaching and the style very much and at the end of the day we were
> all happy and exhausted. Every night(*) for the duration of the
> w/shop milongas were organized and every night the music and the
> floor wouldn't allow anybody (anybody!) to dance the steps we were
> learning during the day.

No surprise to me. Big name for big figures ... luckily for us here
in
the netherlands there are a lot of teachers teaching 'silent',
'respectful', 'subtile' tango ... instead of the bigg show off
things!

> It feels like... "Ok kids, play with your big steps, dream of the
> stage tango during the day, but at night... let's get serious and
> dance the only true tango".

Sure! All night just big mokking around ... this will get boring
after
a very short while! Real tango, as in Bs.As. is more on the subtile
side: Every now and then a little embelishment is much more effectful
and impressive (to the follower/leader as well as to the spectator)
than and big pose after another. (Guess why ballroom, esp.
competition, gets boring so fast ... but people stick to argentine
tango for decades???)

Being in a Milonga in Bs.As. you'd watch Naveira doing big figures
[which he probably/definitely won't do on a crowded floor, only in
the
afterhours ... when most of the tangotouristos allready are lying in
their hotel-beds :-( ], as you watch one big star big figures you'd
be
easily attracted (read: distracted) by the next star coming up ...
and
so on. But watchin Tete (and sort alikes) ... you'd be happy to get
enough glimpse of what he's doing ... "move no move", "internal
movement" as my old tai chi teacher william c.c. chen would say ...
and stare for hours and hours. There's so much to explore with those
... !!!

I talked to a woman in Bs.As. who heard the following comment from
another woman after dancing with Tete (the other woman nearly broke
down on a chair): "*that* was tango!" After dancing with one of the
show-offers she'd probably just be exhausted ... and then ready for
the next to come up.

> And don't get me wrong, the example in Atlanta was just one of many,
> just what seems to be normality.

Absolutely correct!!!

Allthough there might be differences depending on town and location.
I.e. here in the netherlands I'd say that the Amsterdam scene stands
more for the action side of the tango, more show off, whereas the
eastern parts of the country, mainly grouped around 'mekka' Nijmegen
('El Corte') and sister milonga 'Flor de Fango' in Arnhem, hold a
strong reputation for the more subtile side of dancing ... esp. with
a
lot of respect for other couples on the floor. (this is the area with
the lowest numbers of crashing and bumping into other couples on the
dancefloor I ever experienced).



to be continued ... christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/

Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:11:42 +0200
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: part 2 ... Re: Milonguero vs. Salon at milongas

continued from part 1:

> Here comes another issue (part of the same initial one actually):
> what music do we play at milongas?

Hopefully music according to the dancers (and their abitilies, but
also their mood) and the crowdedness of the floor!

> Not every piece is good for dancing
> milonguero as not every piece is good for dancing salon style. You
> can dance milonguero or salon on everything, sure, but the results
> are not as good. In my little experience it seems that at milongas
> (I'm talking of the US) tangos with a strong and very regular beat
> are the rule (more suitable for milonguero style), while music like
> Pugliese's (and some Piazzolla, yes!) is hardly played at all and
> usually towards the last 15 min of the milonga.

Hmm, Pugliese and Piazzolla ... for dancing IMHO to different things.
Well, at least Pugliese is - justified - very present here in the
netherlands. Not only because some off his 'children' are serving the
scene with music ("Sexteto Canyengue", dutch orquesta! in the
tradition of Pugliese and "Color Tango".)

> I may be wrong here, but... that's why
> I'm writing, to hear how things are in places that I haven't been at
> :) ... give me some hope!

Come to Europe ... easy answer! :-) But: Get's me more curious on the
music played in the US. :-))

One important thing - as mentioned during earlier discussions: The DJ
of the night is to serve the dancers!!! And *not* his/her own ego
concerning music styles etc. pp.

> Finally, I would like to say that I fully understand that organizers
> that strongly prefer milonguero style will "DJ" their milongas with
> music suitable for that style.

Of course ... or do you (and your partner) want to return home every
tangonight blue and yellow because of all the received kicks?

> No problem, but many instructors are
> teaching salon style to attract younger generations (but not only
> for those, mainly, because it's more catchy for an outsider) and
> then still organize their weekly milongas with music not really
> suitable for what they teach... or not?

Let them teach their catchy figures! But please let them leave their
milongas low pace for safe and sound dancing. I have not been taking
masterclasses or anything catchy the last years since living in the
netherlands, even not during my 4+ weeks in Bs.As. earlier this year.
Allthough far from perfect (or a glimpse of that) my dancing improve
a
lot by just concentrating on the basics, on the inside, on the
energy,
on the 'qi of tango'.

Remember: A meal without salt is not tasty ... but too much (only?)
salt ... hmm, you won't appreciate it.

> I'm really curious to see if I'm the only one that had the same
> feeling of (mild) frustration...

As said at the beginning: No frustration, esp. not at crowded
milongas where people know how to behave. [And yes: From time to
time,
with the right partner, I love to do some crazy things ... can
remember fantastics (late) nights that way in Leipzig (germany) and
also Bs.As. ('La Catedral').


Your posting makes me very very curious on what I will find over a
bit more than a week ... at TangoFornia and TangOregon!

regards
Christian


christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/

Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:41:21 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonguero vs. Salon at milongas

----Original Message Follows----

Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:30:13 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonguero vs. Salon at milongas

Hello list,

Riccardo's post sums up a lot of questions of dance style and
organization of milongas that seem to come up again and again on this
list. Sergio has answered well in his posts, and I would like to add a
bit. I am not just responding to Riccardo's post, but to ideas that
have come up in other people's response to his post.

There is the recuring idea that you have to dance different styles to
different orchestras, dancing 'milonguero' to D'Arienzo, or 'salon' to
Di Sarli, and so on. I don't know where this idea comes from. I have
never heard a single master teacher ever say anything like this. If you
watch them dance they dance their dance, their own personal style, to
every orchestra. They use their personal dance to interpret all of the
music.

Then there is the question of how to run a milonga, and what music
should be played. You learn one set of things in a class, dancing to
Pugliese, or more modern music, and then at the milonga you don't hear
much of that music, and nothing seems to come together.

These questions aren't as hard to answer as this list makes them seem to
be. We are dancing Argentine tango after all. Airfares are not so high
now, and travel in Argentina is not so expensive. Now more than ever it
is possible to experience tango at the source. Go to Buenos Aires, sit
and watch, and learn. Dance among people who have danced for 40 - 50
years, and see what they do. Listen to the DJs at the milongas and see
what they play, and if you don't recognize the music ask people.
Argentines are delighted to talk with someone who is interested. This
is the time to do it, enough of the older dancers are still there, and
the knowledge is being transfered from that generation to the younger
generation.

Get to know tango as it is. Then if you decide you want to go off in
some different direction you will at least know what you are leaving
behind, and your knowledge will fruitfully inform what you are doing.

Then dance, dance, dance. Dance until you forget who taught you what
steps. Dance until the steps happen to you because of the changing
situation around you and the music you are hearing. Dance until you
don't have to think about dancing any more so that you don't just dance,
you interpret every song as though you were a member of the orchestra.
Dance until you don't know how to answer when someone asks you what
style of tango you dance.

We can talk forever but if people don't dance we will never know more
than we know about tango today.

Happy tangos to all,

Robert