3602 narrow-minded religiosity?
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:59:58 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: narrow-minded religiosity?
Manuel (WHITE95) wrote:
"They certainly do not speak of tango whith narrow
minded religiosity and they are much more accepting of
each other and of the realization that there are as
many styles of dancing tango as there are dancers. "
INDEED.
Dear friends,
You don't have to be the REAL THING to enjoy tango and
be good at it. It's OK! Really! You don't need the
approval of the Argentines! Being Argentine does not
make somebody an automatic expert. You are not
required to speak Spanish like a porteno. You don't
have to have witnessed the venerable milongueros ply
their trade. You don't have to have a dozen trips to
BA under your belt. You don't have to execute your
steps JUST SO, as long as they work and feel good. You
don't need to submit to the abuse and snobbery of some
people and say Yes Sir Sorry Sir. You don't have to
wear fishnets or a mournful face. YOU DON'T HAVE TO
*ANYTHING*!
While some familiarity with the place, history and
culture is interesting and definitely helps, really
ALL you need to experience tango is an open mind and
heart, some musicality and creativity, good teachers
wherever they are from, some nice music, frictionless
communication with your partner, and a dance floor
with other nice people.
So please relax and don't worry about approval. You
will probably never get it. And you know what, YOU
DON'T NEED IT. This is a free country (still) and we
do this for FUN.
Tine
www.tangomuse.com
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
Check out our brand new website at www.yaletangoclub.org
To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or visit our website.
To unsubscribe, send us an email, or if you're in a hurry, do it yourself by sending an email to YaleTangoClub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. If it doesn't work, just let us know. We're nice people and we really don't want to aggravate anybody. Thanks!
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:16:27 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Dear Tine, You are absolutely right, but please call
what you do US American Tango, do not tell people it
is Argentine. Thank you. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> Manuel (WHITE95) wrote:
> "They certainly do not speak of tango whith narrow
> minded religiosity and they are much more accepting
of
> each other and of the realization that there are as
> many styles of dancing tango as there are dancers. "
>
> INDEED.
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> You don't have to be the REAL THING to enjoy tango
and
> be good at it. It's OK! Really! You don't need the
> approval of the Argentines! Being Argentine does not
> make somebody an automatic expert. You are not
> required to speak Spanish like a porteno. You don't
> have to have witnessed the venerable milongueros ply
> their trade. You don't have to have a dozen trips to
> BA under your belt. You don't have to execute your
> steps JUST SO, as long as they work and feel good.
You
> don't need to submit to the abuse and snobbery of
some
> people and say Yes Sir Sorry Sir. You don't have to
> wear fishnets or a mournful face. YOU DON'T HAVE TO
> *ANYTHING*!
>
> While some familiarity with the place, history and
> culture is interesting and definitely helps, really
> ALL you need to experience tango is an open mind and
> heart, some musicality and creativity, good teachers
> wherever they are from, some nice music,
frictionless
> communication with your partner, and a dance floor
> with other nice people.
>
> So please relax and don't worry about approval. You
> will probably never get it. And you know what, YOU
> DON'T NEED IT. This is a free country (still) and we
> do this for FUN.
>
> Tine
> www.tangomuse.com
>
> ************************
> Tango Club at Yale
>
> YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
> Check out our brand new website at
>
> To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or
visit our website.
> To unsubscribe, send us an email, or if you're in a
hurry, do it yourself by sending an email to
YaleTangoClub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. If it
doesn't work, just let us know. We're nice people and
we really don't want to aggravate anybody. Thanks!
>
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:19:25 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: narrow-minded religiosity?
I totally agree with you Tine!
With one exception.
If you make your own brand of Tango, please,
do not call it ARGENTINE TANGO.
Otherwise I am totally on your side, no kidding.
Igor Polk
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:27:34 EDT
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Derik:
Can't call it American Tango... that title has already been co-opted by the
ballroom dance group. American Tango, as danced by the ballroom dancers, has
a frame in which the couples arch their backs away from each other [breath
mints, anyone? ;-) ] as opposed to Argentine Tango, whether close or open
embrace, where the couples backs are vertical or leaning forwards.
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 7/8/2005 12:17:21 Pacific Daylight Time,
rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM writes:
Dear Tine, You are absolutely right, but please call
what you do US American Tango, do not tell people it
is Argentine. Thank you. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> Manuel (WHITE95) wrote:
> "They certainly do not speak of tango whith narrow
> minded religiosity and they are much more accepting
of
> each other and of the realization that there are as
> many styles of dancing tango as there are dancers. "
>
> INDEED.
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> You don't have to be the REAL THING to enjoy tango
and
> be good at it. It's OK! Really! You don't need the
> approval of the Argentines! Being Argentine does not
> make somebody an automatic expert. You are not
> required to speak Spanish like a porteno. You don't
> have to have witnessed the venerable milongueros ply
> their trade. You don't have to have a dozen trips to
> BA under your belt. You don't have to execute your
> steps JUST SO, as long as they work and feel good.
You
> don't need to submit to the abuse and snobbery of
some
> people and say Yes Sir Sorry Sir. You don't have to
> wear fishnets or a mournful face. YOU DON'T HAVE TO
> *ANYTHING*!
>
> While some familiarity with the place, history and
> culture is interesting and definitely helps, really
> ALL you need to experience tango is an open mind and
> heart, some musicality and creativity, good teachers
> wherever they are from, some nice music,
frictionless
> communication with your partner, and a dance floor
> with other nice people.
>
> So please relax and don't worry about approval. You
> will probably never get it. And you know what, YOU
> DON'T NEED IT. This is a free country (still) and we
> do this for FUN.
>
> Tine
> www.tangomuse.com
>
> ************************
> Tango Club at Yale
>
> YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
> Check out our brand new website at
>
> To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or
visit our website.
> To unsubscribe, send us an email, or if you're in a
hurry, do it yourself by sending an email to
YaleTangoClub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. If it
doesn't work, just let us know. We're nice people and
we really don't want to aggravate anybody. Thanks!
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:34:41 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Hello Derik
That would be incorrect. The name is already taken by
another dance that I hear people enjoy and take quite
seriously.
I can only speak for my community, but every Sunday
here we dance tango nuevo porteno. This is New Haven
after all. When we get some Argentine students
strolling by they do a double take, they thought only
their grandparents did this stuff.
What are you, the Tango Inquisition? Be still, my
trembling tango shoes.
Tine
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Tine, You are absolutely right, but please call
> what you do US American Tango, do not tell people it
> is Argentine. Thank you. Derik
> --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
> wrote:
> > Manuel (WHITE95) wrote:
> > "They certainly do not speak of tango whith narrow
> > minded religiosity and they are much more
> accepting
> of
> > each other and of the realization that there are
> as
> > many styles of dancing tango as there are dancers.
> "
> >
> > INDEED.
> >
> >
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > You don't have to be the REAL THING to enjoy tango
> and
> > be good at it. It's OK! Really! You don't need the
> > approval of the Argentines! Being Argentine does
> not
> > make somebody an automatic expert. You are not
> > required to speak Spanish like a porteno. You
> don't
> > have to have witnessed the venerable milongueros
> ply
> > their trade. You don't have to have a dozen trips
> to
> > BA under your belt. You don't have to execute your
> > steps JUST SO, as long as they work and feel good.
> You
> > don't need to submit to the abuse and snobbery of
> some
> > people and say Yes Sir Sorry Sir. You don't have
> to
> > wear fishnets or a mournful face. YOU DON'T HAVE
> TO
> > *ANYTHING*!
> >
> > While some familiarity with the place, history and
> > culture is interesting and definitely helps,
> really
> > ALL you need to experience tango is an open mind
> and
> > heart, some musicality and creativity, good
> teachers
> > wherever they are from, some nice music,
> frictionless
> > communication with your partner, and a dance floor
> > with other nice people.
> >
> > So please relax and don't worry about approval.
> You
> > will probably never get it. And you know what, YOU
> > DON'T NEED IT. This is a free country (still) and
> we
> > do this for FUN.
> >
> > Tine
> > www.tangomuse.com
> >
> > ************************
> > Tango Club at Yale
> >
> > YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
> > Check out our brand new website at
> www.yaletangoclub.org
> >
> > To subscribe to our event emails, please email us
> or
> visit our website.
> > To unsubscribe, send us an email, or if you're in
> a
> hurry, do it yourself by sending an email to
> YaleTangoClub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. If it
> doesn't work, just let us know. We're nice people
> and
> we really don't want to aggravate anybody. Thanks!
> >
>
>
> protection around
>
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
Check out our brand new website at www.yaletangoclub.org
To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or visit our website.
To unsubscribe, send us an email, or if you're in a hurry, do it yourself by sending an email to YaleTangoClub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. If it doesn't work, just let us know. We're nice people and we really don't want to aggravate anybody. Thanks!
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:41:30 -0400
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
I have been on this list for about a year now and been dancing for 2. I have
yet to hear anyone come up with a definition of what is and is not Argentine
Tango.
Is there a catalogue of steps or music that has been officially approved as
being Argentine Tango? Is there an official secret organization that decides
what is and is not Argentine Tango? If you come up with a new step do you
have to perform it in front of these people and get an official stamp of
approval?
Maybe we do need another name for Argentine Tango? A-Hole Argentine Tango..
it would fit some of the people on this list perfectly. ;-)
All the best,
Clint
clint@tangoevolution.com
https://www.tangoevolution.com
> You are absolutely right, but please call
> what you do US American Tango, do not tell people it
> is Argentine.
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:55:19 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: narrow-minded religiosity?
Dear Clint,
It is not an issue of inventing of new steps.
It is a tango-political issue.
The problem is that some new tango schools are effectively blocking other
Argentine Tango directions and teachers in their community, ignoring other
teachers, aggressively insisting that only their way of tango is good.
Sometimes they sink to direct lies as in the case with Susana Miller and her
Milonguero Style.
That is the problem.
There is no problem inside Argentine Tango whatsoever - it accommodates any
steps as soon as you do it with lead and follow and Authentic Tango music -
dance what you want!
So, please respect openness of Argentine Tango otherwise we may need another
Tango Renaissance in future.
Igor Polk
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:11:41 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Hello everybody,
It walks and talks like Argentine Tango, so it's not a
duck, it's Argentine Tango, seriously. The Argentines
just forgot to patent it.
Tine
www.tangomuse.com
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> wrote:
> I totally agree with you Tine!
>
> With one exception.
>
> If you make your own brand of Tango, please,
> do not call it ARGENTINE TANGO.
>
> Otherwise I am totally on your side, no kidding.
>
>
> Igor Polk
>
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
Check out our brand new website at www.yaletangoclub.org
To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or visit our website.
To unsubscribe, send us an email, or if you're in a hurry, do it yourself by sending an email to YaleTangoClub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. If it doesn't work, just let us know. We're nice people and we really don't want to aggravate anybody. Thanks!
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:44:21 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Dear Igor, I agree with you 100 percent. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> wrote:
> Dear Clint,
>
> It is not an issue of inventing of new steps.
> It is a tango-political issue.
>
> The problem is that some new tango schools are
effectively blocking other
> Argentine Tango directions and teachers in their
community, ignoring other
> teachers, aggressively insisting that only their way
of tango is good.
>
> Sometimes they sink to direct lies as in the case
with Susana Miller and her
> Milonguero Style.
>
> That is the problem.
>
> There is no problem inside Argentine Tango
whatsoever - it accommodates any
> steps as soon as you do it with lead and follow and
Authentic Tango music -
> dance what you want!
>
> So, please respect openness of Argentine Tango
otherwise we may need another
> Tango Renaissance in future.
>
> Igor Polk
>
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:59:18 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
> Sometimes they sink to direct lies as in the case
> with Susana Miller and her
> Milonguero Style.
Igor,
I have to take issue with calling anyone's version of
tango a lie. It is simply their truth, which might
not be your truth.
As a beginning student, I asked my tango teacher what
music to buy for practicing. He suggested Carlos
Gardel. Was he lying to me that Gardel made good
practice music? By the way, I enjoy Gardel's music,
but I would never suggest it for practicing.
So many Argentines are passionate about their version
of tango. After all, it is their personal artistic
expression. You may not like it or agree with it, but
that doesn't make it a lie.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:58:45 -0400
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
> Sometimes they sink to direct lies as in the case with Susana
> Miller and her
> Milonguero Style.
I don't disagree with your assessment of Susana Miller.. I flushed money
down the toilet a few weeks ago taking workshops with her. It was just a lot
of marketing talk. I must have heard the term, "Expensive Steps" about a
hundred times. She kept referring to those teachers that take your money
teaching "expensive steps," while she proceeded to teach nothing.
The most expensive step I ever learned was the crossed foot basic from
Susana Miller for $80. It was in a class labeled as a class in the newest
move/footwork/etc.. being performed in BA. Well.. she spent most of the
class teaching the crossed foot basic and then the last bit of the class
teaching the exact same move that I learned 1 and 1/2 years ago from another
teacher here in Atlanta. Yet, another teacher from here in Atlanta, also,
teaches that move as a regular part of his weekly classes. So, if it is the
newest move in BA? How did these other 2 teachers learn about it over a year
ago?
I also loved that she referred to people who danced open embrace as
children, who will dance close when they grow up. We recently had some
wonderful visiting teachers in Facundo and Kely Posadas. I learned something
new every moment of their classes. I wonder how they would like it, being
referred to as children. Maybe they would take it as a compliment.
Actually, children are very inventive and creative... so maybe it is good to
be called a child.
My biggest complaint that I see with Milonguero style is it seems to be all
about conformity. Everyone dancing the same exact way. It seems you can do
everything in Salon Close-embrace that you can do in Milonguero. In Salon
close-embrace, you can walk heel to toe, flat footed, sharing an axis,
buttons to buttons, etc.. it is up to you how you dance.
All the best,
Clint
clint@tangoevolution.com
https://www.tangoevolution.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:06:17 -0500
From: Mark Johnson <mark.johnson@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
You're kidding right? Tell me what "real" Argentine Tango is like? I feel
robbed...damn it! Here I've been dancing for 9 years only to discover I'm a
fake.
On 7/8/05 2:16 PM, "Derik Rawson" <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Dear Tine, You are absolutely right, but please call
> what you do US American Tango, do not tell people it
> is Argentine. Thank you. Derik
> --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
> wrote:
>> Manuel (WHITE95) wrote:
>> "They certainly do not speak of tango whith narrow
>> minded religiosity and they are much more accepting
> of
>> each other and of the realization that there are as
>> many styles of dancing tango as there are dancers. "
>>
>> INDEED.
>>
>>
>> Dear friends,
>>
>> You don't have to be the REAL THING to enjoy tango
> and
>> be good at it. It's OK! Really! You don't need the
>> approval of the Argentines! Being Argentine does not
>> make somebody an automatic expert. You are not
>> required to speak Spanish like a porteno. You don't
>> have to have witnessed the venerable milongueros ply
>> their trade. You don't have to have a dozen trips to
>> BA under your belt. You don't have to execute your
>> steps JUST SO, as long as they work and feel good.
> You
>> don't need to submit to the abuse and snobbery of
> some
>> people and say Yes Sir Sorry Sir. You don't have to
>> wear fishnets or a mournful face. YOU DON'T HAVE TO
>> *ANYTHING*!
>>
>> While some familiarity with the place, history and
>> culture is interesting and definitely helps, really
>> ALL you need to experience tango is an open mind and
>> heart, some musicality and creativity, good teachers
>> wherever they are from, some nice music,
> frictionless
>> communication with your partner, and a dance floor
>> with other nice people.
>>
>> So please relax and don't worry about approval. You
>> will probably never get it. And you know what, YOU
>> DON'T NEED IT. This is a free country (still) and we
>> do this for FUN.
>>
>> Tine
>> www.tangomuse.com
>>
>> ************************
>> Tango Club at Yale
>>
>> YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
>> Check out our brand new website at
> www.yaletangoclub.org
>>
>> To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or
> visit our website.
>> To unsubscribe, send us an email, or if you're in a
> hurry, do it yourself by sending an email to
> YaleTangoClub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. If it
> doesn't work, just let us know. We're nice people and
> we really don't want to aggravate anybody. Thanks!
>>
>
>
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:33:18 -0700
From: Larry Richelli <dancekauai@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
I must say, Clint, if you think that taking a lesson
with Susana is flushing money then I would hate to see
you dance, glad I don't have to see that!
--- Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM> wrote:
> > Sometimes they sink to direct lies as in the case
> with Susana
> > Miller and her
> > Milonguero Style.
>
> I don't disagree with your assessment of Susana
> Miller.. I flushed money
> down the toilet a few weeks ago taking workshops
> with her. It was just a lot
> of marketing talk. I must have heard the term,
> "Expensive Steps" about a
> hundred times. She kept referring to those teachers
> that take your money
> teaching "expensive steps," while she proceeded to
> teach nothing.
>
> The most expensive step I ever learned was the
> crossed foot basic from
> Susana Miller for $80. It was in a class labeled as
> a class in the newest
> move/footwork/etc.. being performed in BA. Well..
> she spent most of the
> class teaching the crossed foot basic and then the
> last bit of the class
> teaching the exact same move that I learned 1 and
> 1/2 years ago from another
> teacher here in Atlanta. Yet, another teacher from
> here in Atlanta, also,
> teaches that move as a regular part of his weekly
> classes. So, if it is the
> newest move in BA? How did these other 2 teachers
> learn about it over a year
> ago?
>
> I also loved that she referred to people who danced
> open embrace as
> children, who will dance close when they grow up. We
> recently had some
> wonderful visiting teachers in Facundo and Kely
> Posadas. I learned something
> new every moment of their classes. I wonder how they
> would like it, being
> referred to as children. Maybe they would take it as
> a compliment.
>
> Actually, children are very inventive and
> creative... so maybe it is good to
> be called a child.
>
> My biggest complaint that I see with Milonguero
> style is it seems to be all
> about conformity. Everyone dancing the same exact
> way. It seems you can do
> everything in Salon Close-embrace that you can do in
> Milonguero. In Salon
> close-embrace, you can walk heel to toe, flat
> footed, sharing an axis,
> buttons to buttons, etc.. it is up to you how you
> dance.
>
> All the best,
>
> Clint
> clint@tangoevolution.com
> https://www.tangoevolution.com
>
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Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:47:51 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
>From: Larry Richelli <dancekauai@YAHOO.COM>
>I must say, Clint, if you think that taking a lesson
>with Susana is flushing money then I would hate to see
>you dance, glad I don't have to see that!
>
Ease up on Clint. He's only relating his personal experience. I don't know
what you would think of Clint's dancing but in my estimation he gets around
the floor very well which is a lot more than I can say for a lot of very
vocal contributors to this forum..... By the way, there is a group of
dancers in Atlanta who dance in other than the so called milonguero style. I
was at milonga not long ago and had the pleasant experience of dancing with
all these folks and thoroughly enjoying it. They danced very nicely around
the floor, maintaining the LOD and moving along with the music. Personally,
I prefer to dance in a close embrace and in a more simple, rhythmic style.
However, I prefer dancing with these folks who know how to respect the line
of dance and the music (as well as the rest of the dancers) than to suffer
agony behind some self-styled, practically immobile shuffler.
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:14:15 -0700
From: Rick Jones <rwjones52@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity? - Susana Miller
--- Someone wrote:
>
> Sometimes they sink to direct lies as in the case
> with Susana Miller and her Milonguero Style.
>
OK, think I'll add my two cents worth...
For starters, I don't get involved in discussions
about tango styles. I barely know what it is you
people are talking about when you say "milonguero" or
"apilado" or "salon". Not a clue. Mainly because it
doesn't even remotely interest me. I think it's
totaly crap. All I really care about is that a woman
enjoys her dance with me.
But here's what I have to say about Susana Miller...
My wife and I went to BsAs on two separate trips last
year and spent a considerable amount of time taking
tango lessons with an old milonguero Roberto Pujol.
He's not a big name milonguero like Gavito or Tete,
but just an old guy in his sixties who's been dancing
in milongas since he was 14 or so.
Roberto never taught me a step. Not one. He focused
relentlessly on my posture...my walking...my
embrace...my weight shifting...my
breathing...relaxing...etc. We went to milongas
together on several occasions, and he would point out
the things he had been trying to teach me as they were
being exhibited in other older dancers. And the guys
he pointed out to me **seemed** to be the better
dancers on the floor. Certainly they had styles that
I'd want to try emulating in my own dancing. So to
me, Roberto was a milonguero who had something valid
and valuable to teach me.
Cut to...
This past April Susana Miller came to Washington DC,
and I took a few private lessons with her. And guess
what? She focused totally on my walking...my weight
shifting...etc. And guess what else? What she had to
say was pretty much exactly what Roberto Pujol had had
to say, the only difference being that she speaks much
better English and could communicate cause-and-effect
better. It was almost identical, and certainly just
as valuable.
But wait, I'm not done yet.
I also took some group lessons from her in April that
were advertised as showing the latest from Buenos
Aires. And I learned a few interesting things. I
learned a couple of nice variations on molinettes and
sacadas and a few other things.
Cut to...
Then in May my wife and I went to BsAs again, and
while we were there we took some lessons from an old
milonguero named (I think) Nestor LaVitola. Nestor
mainly taught steps. And guess what? The steps he
taught were pretty much the same steps Susana Miller
had taught as the latest from Buenos Aires. There was
very much overlap.
So, you guys can say whatever you will about whether
Susana Miller teaches some particular style that you
all seem to feel you have the last word on. But in my
experience, she is teaching exactly on par with the
milongueros of Buenos Aires -- at least the ones I've
studied with -- only she's able to communicate and
teach better, and it costs a hell of a lot less to
take a lesson with her up here than fly down to Buenos
Aires to take a lesson with a milonguero down there.
OK, go back to your squabbles and name calling.
Cheers,
Rick Jones
Washngton DC
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 15:00:13 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Dear List,
This one of _those_ debates...again.
Derik: if you accept that there were several styles in tango during it's
history, and if you accept that such tango was influenced by non-argentine
cultures then you can't possibily label one or another style a fake which is
basing the technique on the same rules and ideas as seen during those
historical times. Just imagine how many styles were there which were
invented and done by Argentines for the stage... Salon style in itself is a
version of the tango exported from the suburbs to Europe and imported back.
Not to mention the criticized label: _Argentine_ Tango.
Have you seen how people in Montevideo dance tango??? It is essentially the
same thing as in BsAs. Of course we can invent a name for that: Uruguayian
Tango maybe? Then we are making everything very easy to understand, aren't
we?
Argentine Tango is most likely a name that was given to tango by
non-argentines. Since portenos call it simply tango and it would not make
sense any other way. The reasons maybe to distinguish between the European
and the South-American variation or maybe just to emphasize the exoticism of
the dance.
Actually, AT became a label for a dance, which (in strict 'scientific'
(European/American) technical terms) is not ONE dance, but rather a group of
dances. Just think: when you say AT you will include all styles (stage and
non-stage, open and closed embrace) and all dances (milonga, vals, tango and
maybe we can call canyengue a separate dance and not just a style?). Since -
as with most labels in lanugages - the actual _use_ of the word precedes
artificial definitions, I don't see any point in arguing about whether nuevo
or anything else is AT or not. (actually nuevo IS Argentine: it was invented
in Argentina by Argentines for Argentine and neotango music is made by
Argentines, in Argentina, for Argentines)
Of course you can still start debates whether a style is authentic or not.
But obviously you will not be able to find enough evidence for the
preeminence of any one particular style - especially, that these styles are
not properly documented. However, authenticity is not really a factor when
we come about deciding whether the dance is tango or not tango. Since the
world relates practically everything tango which exhibits certain
characteristics (note: most of them are utterly inauthentic, such as the
rose in the teeth thing) and since these characteristis were attributed to
tango at the same time the alleged authentic forms were developed, we are
not entitled to exclude the alleged inauthentic ones as non-tango. They
share the same roots, even though their development diverged. Probably this
is the reason, why we use the term Argentine Tango to separate certain types
of tangos from others. However, there is no agreement that the term
Argentine Tango covers ONLY the authentic styles. In the minds of people
(who use the language and this term in particular), Argentine Tango is every
tango that is based on the dance(s) before the splitting (to European line
and the South-American line - if you want a date: from 1912-1920, but the
differences became truly visible only later on) and obviously on the dances
evolved from those on the South-American line of development. Naturally,
this definiton is not complete, but with arts and culture this is not really
possible either. (obviously there was also some European-US influence in the
SA-line as well after the splitting, but note: those are influences and not
changes.)
If someone wants a better label where authenticity counts, and to describe
the way milongueros danced and still dance in BsAs (in any age) than I'd
suggest using the term Tango Porteno. That would solve the debate, even
though it would still not define any particular style, but it would describe
that the kind of tango it is refferring to is the one that was or is danced
by natives of BsAs, in the milongas.
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:11:25 -0700
From: Rick Jones <rwjones52@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
--- Ecsedy Aron <aron@MILONGA.HU> wrote:
>
> Argentine Tango is most likely a name that was given
> to tango by non-argentines. Since portenos call it
> simply tango...
>
Exactly. Just like in China. They don't call it
"Chinese Food"...they just call it "food."
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:44:20 -0400
From: Martin Waxman <martin@WAXMAN.NET>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
At 09:00 AM 7/9/2005, Aron wrote:
>...I'd suggest using the term Tango Porteno.
I'd suggest Apilongo.
Just dance to the music.
Marty Waxman
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:42:22 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Just made some comments on the post from Ecsedy Aron:
>Salon style in itself is a version of the tango exported from the suburbs
to Europe and imported back.<
I do not think salon was exported from the suburbs rather it was copied and
sanitized to make people from upscale classes feel better they were not
dancing like low status people from the arrabales (orillas).
The Tango that came back from Paris was derided by the locals (criollos).
Nicanor Lima in his manual "El Tango Argentino de Salon" (1916?) criticized
the Parisian Tango as inauthentic and of bad taste. Also, the tango from
Hollywood portrayed by Rudolph Valentino was scorned as of bad taste because
of the way the tango choreography had been altered -- very long steps and
funny lateral corridas.
-
>Have you seen how people in Montevideo dance tango??? It is essentially the
same thing as in BsAs.<
The movements may be similar but the intention would be different.
>Argentine Tango is most likely a name that was given to tango by
non-argentines.<
Nicanor Lima gave the name "El tango Argentino de Salon" circa 1916 possibly
to differentiate it from the Parisian Tango.
>Since portenos call it simply tango and it would not make
sense any other way.<
There were tango orilleros, tango americanos (habaneras), tango de salon,
tango compadritos, etc.
>Just think: when you say AT you will include all styles (stage and
non-stage, open and closed embrace) and all dances (milonga, vals, tango and
maybe we can call canyengue a separate dance and not just a style?).<
Canyengue a.k.a. Paso Candombe appears to be a transition between the
Milonga and the Tango Orillero.
-
>Of course you can still start debates whether a style is authentic or not.
But obviously you will not be able to find enough evidence for the
preeminence of any one particular style - especially, that these styles are
not properly documented.<
Styles such as Tango Orillero and its choreography was first documented in
the plays for "Justicia Criolla" by Ezqeuiel Soria in 1897 the theme of this
play come as result of interactions of blacks in daily life in Buenoa Aires.
Other plays with Tango Orillero choreography danced on stage were "Ensalada
Criolla" by Enrique De Maria, and "Los Disfrazados" by Carlos Mauricio
Pacheco.
Bruno
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 17:45:16 -0400
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Thanks for your defense Manuel.
I may have come off a bit strong in my posting, but it was just an opinion.
I realize that many many people enjoy Miller's classes and proclaim to get a
lot out of them. Maybe I caught her on an off day, but I do feel that a
teacher with as much experience as she has should know how to organize a
class for everyone to get something out of it.
I think the main point I would like to make is this: If social dancing is
your primary goal, which it is in my case. Take classes with many teachers.
Take classes with teachers of many styles. Master all of them. Then remove
what you don't like. Don't dismiss something just because a teacher of one
style turns their nose up at it. Filter everything teachers tell you through
your own sense of what is "right and wrong for you".
The problem is that many people that dance Milonguero, don't seem to think
of it as A style but rather THE style. Miller clearly propogates this and
students believe her.
I just want to be clear... I don't dislike Miller... or think that she is a
bad teacher... I just don't like her ideas and attitudes.. I don't think
that they are positive for Tango. It is nothing personal.
You have to understand that the vast majority of students do not read
Tango-L, nor are they able to afford to go to BA. So they may spend years
paying for Milonguero lessons thinking that they are learning the ONLY
authentic style of tango.
Milonguero is a perfectly valid form of tango and I think if you were to
take only classes with Miller and her proteges.. from what I hear you will
be able to find plenty of people to dance with in BA.
But I would argue that if you learn proper Salon Open and Close technique,
you will be able to go ANYWHERE that Argentine Tango is danced and dance
with woman in the room. Again, because learning Salon Close embrace will
teach you all of the elements found in Milonguero. It is does not put limits
on what you can learn.
All the best,
Clint
clint@tangoevolution.com
https://www.tangoevolution.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of WHITE 95 R
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:48 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] narrow-minded religiosity?
>
>
> >From: Larry Richelli <dancekauai@YAHOO.COM>
>
> >I must say, Clint, if you think that taking a lesson
> >with Susana is flushing money then I would hate to see
> >you dance, glad I don't have to see that!
> >
>
>
> Ease up on Clint. He's only relating his personal experience.
> I don't know
> what you would think of Clint's dancing but in my estimation
> he gets around
> the floor very well which is a lot more than I can say for a
> lot of very
> vocal contributors to this forum..... By the way, there is a group of
> dancers in Atlanta who dance in other than the so called
> milonguero style. I
> was at milonga not long ago and had the pleasant experience
> of dancing with
> all these folks and thoroughly enjoying it. They danced very
> nicely around
> the floor, maintaining the LOD and moving along with the
> music. Personally,
> I prefer to dance in a close embrace and in a more simple,
> rhythmic style.
> However, I prefer dancing with these folks who know how to
> respect the line
> of dance and the music (as well as the rest of the dancers)
> than to suffer
> agony behind some self-styled, practically immobile shuffler.
>
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 18:29:51 -0400
From: rtara <rtara@MAINE.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
If you have really learned to "Dance" you ought to be able to dance to any
music, with anyone, anywhere, if they're willing.
best,
Robin
> From: Clint Rauscher <clint@axialpartners.com>
> Reply-To: clint@axialpartners.com
> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 17:45:16 -0400
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] narrow-minded religiosity?
>
> Thanks for your defense Manuel.
>
> I may have come off a bit strong in my posting, but it was just an opinion.
> I realize that many many people enjoy Miller's classes and proclaim to get a
> lot out of them. Maybe I caught her on an off day, but I do feel that a
> teacher with as much experience as she has should know how to organize a
> class for everyone to get something out of it.
>
> I think the main point I would like to make is this: If social dancing is
> your primary goal, which it is in my case. Take classes with many teachers.
> Take classes with teachers of many styles. Master all of them. Then remove
> what you don't like. Don't dismiss something just because a teacher of one
> style turns their nose up at it. Filter everything teachers tell you through
> your own sense of what is "right and wrong for you".
>
> The problem is that many people that dance Milonguero, don't seem to think
> of it as A style but rather THE style. Miller clearly propogates this and
> students believe her.
>
> I just want to be clear... I don't dislike Miller... or think that she is a
> bad teacher... I just don't like her ideas and attitudes.. I don't think
> that they are positive for Tango. It is nothing personal.
>
> You have to understand that the vast majority of students do not read
> Tango-L, nor are they able to afford to go to BA. So they may spend years
> paying for Milonguero lessons thinking that they are learning the ONLY
> authentic style of tango.
>
> Milonguero is a perfectly valid form of tango and I think if you were to
> take only classes with Miller and her proteges.. from what I hear you will
> be able to find plenty of people to dance with in BA.
>
> But I would argue that if you learn proper Salon Open and Close technique,
> you will be able to go ANYWHERE that Argentine Tango is danced and dance
> with woman in the room. Again, because learning Salon Close embrace will
> teach you all of the elements found in Milonguero. It is does not put limits
> on what you can learn.
>
> All the best,
>
> Clint
> clint@tangoevolution.com
> https://www.tangoevolution.com
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
>> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of WHITE 95 R
>> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:48 PM
>> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] narrow-minded religiosity?
>>
>>
>>> From: Larry Richelli <dancekauai@YAHOO.COM>
>>
>>> I must say, Clint, if you think that taking a lesson
>>> with Susana is flushing money then I would hate to see
>>> you dance, glad I don't have to see that!
>>>
>>
>>
>> Ease up on Clint. He's only relating his personal experience.
>> I don't know
>> what you would think of Clint's dancing but in my estimation
>> he gets around
>> the floor very well which is a lot more than I can say for a
>> lot of very
>> vocal contributors to this forum..... By the way, there is a group of
>> dancers in Atlanta who dance in other than the so called
>> milonguero style. I
>> was at milonga not long ago and had the pleasant experience
>> of dancing with
>> all these folks and thoroughly enjoying it. They danced very
>> nicely around
>> the floor, maintaining the LOD and moving along with the
>> music. Personally,
>> I prefer to dance in a close embrace and in a more simple,
>> rhythmic style.
>> However, I prefer dancing with these folks who know how to
>> respect the line
>> of dance and the music (as well as the rest of the dancers)
>> than to suffer
>> agony behind some self-styled, practically immobile shuffler.
>>
>
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:53:27 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Dear Clint:
Exactly. I agree with ever thing that you are saying
here...
My personal direct experience with Susana Miller was
exactly the same as yours, when I took her class here
in Houston. I am the one who first introduced her
here to Houston. No one here had ever heard of her
before that to my knowledge, although now, I am sure
that they will claim otherwise. Janell came down here
from the Washington D.C. tango group to dance with me
at a milonga here in Houston, and Susana Miller had
just taught Janell a class the same week in D.C., so
Janell told me about Susana Miller and I told the
people here to contact her, which they did. When I
took my first class with Susana Miller, I thought that
she was cool, and that out of her disorganized way of
teaching, something interesting would finally appear.
Unfortunately, as time went on, she became more and
more disorganized. I finally wrote her off completely
when I saw her be rude to a local tango teacher here
in Houston who was not teaching her style. She
embarrassed him in public, on purpose, in front of his
students. He is a very nice Argentine man, and he did
not deserve this kind of treatment. When I saw that,
I knew that the woman was a problem, and lacked the
social skills needed for me to really enjoy dancing
tango. As time went on, I also saw the local group
here, which now "preaches" her style, become more and
more anti-social and dogmatic, so I just let them go
off and do their thing. Now, I am enjoying just
dancing tango as a social experience, and life is
good. People do forget that tango is more a social
experience than a dance. If dancers lack social
skills, the joy is gone. I have only one rule in
tango, and that rule is, "If they are not fun, do not
dance with them." It has worked so far. My personal
direct experience, and my opinion. Thanks.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM> wrote:
> Thanks for your defense Manuel.
>
> I may have come off a bit strong in my posting, but
> it was just an opinion.
> I realize that many many people enjoy Miller's
> classes and proclaim to get a
> lot out of them. Maybe I caught her on an off day,
> but I do feel that a
> teacher with as much experience as she has should
> know how to organize a
> class for everyone to get something out of it.
>
> I think the main point I would like to make is this:
> If social dancing is
> your primary goal, which it is in my case. Take
> classes with many teachers.
> Take classes with teachers of many styles. Master
> all of them. Then remove
> what you don't like. Don't dismiss something just
> because a teacher of one
> style turns their nose up at it. Filter everything
> teachers tell you through
> your own sense of what is "right and wrong for you".
>
> The problem is that many people that dance
> Milonguero, don't seem to think
> of it as A style but rather THE style. Miller
> clearly propogates this and
> students believe her.
>
> I just want to be clear... I don't dislike Miller...
> or think that she is a
> bad teacher... I just don't like her ideas and
> attitudes.. I don't think
> that they are positive for Tango. It is nothing
> personal.
>
> You have to understand that the vast majority of
> students do not read
> Tango-L, nor are they able to afford to go to BA. So
> they may spend years
> paying for Milonguero lessons thinking that they are
> learning the ONLY
> authentic style of tango.
>
> Milonguero is a perfectly valid form of tango and I
> think if you were to
> take only classes with Miller and her proteges..
> from what I hear you will
> be able to find plenty of people to dance with in
> BA.
>
> But I would argue that if you learn proper Salon
> Open and Close technique,
> you will be able to go ANYWHERE that Argentine Tango
> is danced and dance
> with woman in the room. Again, because learning
> Salon Close embrace will
> teach you all of the elements found in Milonguero.
> It is does not put limits
> on what you can learn.
>
> All the best,
>
> Clint
> clint@tangoevolution.com
> https://www.tangoevolution.com
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:37:57 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Derik,
No kidding, you accuse Susana of lacking social skills
and being umm, RUDE, and MEAN in PUBLIC to nice people
who have a different opinion from hers?
What do you think you do, every day, on this list? You
do all that and more, you are mean even to people who
defend the RIGHT of people to have a different
opinion.
Tine
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Dear Clint:
>
> Exactly. I agree with ever thing that you are
> saying
> here...
>
> My personal direct experience with Susana Miller was
> exactly the same as yours, when I took her class
> here
> in Houston. I am the one who first introduced her
> here to Houston. No one here had ever heard of her
> before that to my knowledge, although now, I am sure
> that they will claim otherwise. Janell came down
> here
> from the Washington D.C. tango group to dance with
> me
> at a milonga here in Houston, and Susana Miller had
> just taught Janell a class the same week in D.C., so
> Janell told me about Susana Miller and I told the
> people here to contact her, which they did. When I
> took my first class with Susana Miller, I thought
> that
> she was cool, and that out of her disorganized way
> of
> teaching, something interesting would finally
> appear.
> Unfortunately, as time went on, she became more and
> more disorganized. I finally wrote her off
> completely
> when I saw her be rude to a local tango teacher here
> in Houston who was not teaching her style. She
> embarrassed him in public, on purpose, in front of
> his
> students. He is a very nice Argentine man, and he
> did
> not deserve this kind of treatment. When I saw
> that,
> I knew that the woman was a problem, and lacked the
> social skills needed for me to really enjoy dancing
> tango. As time went on, I also saw the local group
> here, which now "preaches" her style, become more
> and
> more anti-social and dogmatic, so I just let them go
> off and do their thing. Now, I am enjoying just
> dancing tango as a social experience, and life is
> good. People do forget that tango is more a social
> experience than a dance. If dancers lack social
> skills, the joy is gone. I have only one rule in
> tango, and that rule is, "If they are not fun, do
> not
> dance with them." It has worked so far. My
> personal
> direct experience, and my opinion. Thanks.
>
> Derik
> d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>
> --- Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your defense Manuel.
> >
> > I may have come off a bit strong in my posting,
> but
> > it was just an opinion.
> > I realize that many many people enjoy Miller's
> > classes and proclaim to get a
> > lot out of them. Maybe I caught her on an off day,
> > but I do feel that a
> > teacher with as much experience as she has should
> > know how to organize a
> > class for everyone to get something out of it.
> >
> > I think the main point I would like to make is
> this:
> > If social dancing is
> > your primary goal, which it is in my case. Take
> > classes with many teachers.
> > Take classes with teachers of many styles. Master
> > all of them. Then remove
> > what you don't like. Don't dismiss something just
> > because a teacher of one
> > style turns their nose up at it. Filter everything
> > teachers tell you through
> > your own sense of what is "right and wrong for
> you".
> >
> > The problem is that many people that dance
> > Milonguero, don't seem to think
> > of it as A style but rather THE style. Miller
> > clearly propogates this and
> > students believe her.
> >
> > I just want to be clear... I don't dislike
> Miller...
> > or think that she is a
> > bad teacher... I just don't like her ideas and
> > attitudes.. I don't think
> > that they are positive for Tango. It is nothing
> > personal.
> >
> > You have to understand that the vast majority of
> > students do not read
> > Tango-L, nor are they able to afford to go to BA.
> So
> > they may spend years
> > paying for Milonguero lessons thinking that they
> are
> > learning the ONLY
> > authentic style of tango.
> >
> > Milonguero is a perfectly valid form of tango and
> I
> > think if you were to
> > take only classes with Miller and her proteges..
> > from what I hear you will
> > be able to find plenty of people to dance with in
> > BA.
> >
> > But I would argue that if you learn proper Salon
> > Open and Close technique,
> > you will be able to go ANYWHERE that Argentine
> Tango
> > is danced and dance
> > with woman in the room. Again, because learning
> > Salon Close embrace will
> > teach you all of the elements found in Milonguero.
> > It is does not put limits
> > on what you can learn.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Clint
> > clint@tangoevolution.com
> > https://www.tangoevolution.com
>
>
>
>
> mobile phone.
>
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
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Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:44:07 EDT
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Well said, Tine... Derik's been that way the moment he signed on this list.
In a message dated 7/10/2005 10:38:23 Pacific Daylight Time,
yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM writes:
Derik,
No kidding, you accuse Susana of lacking social skills
and being umm, RUDE, and MEAN in PUBLIC to nice people
who have a different opinion from hers?
What do you think you do, every day, on this list? You
do all that and more, you are mean even to people who
defend the RIGHT of people to have a different
opinion.
Tine
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Dear Clint:
>
> Exactly. I agree with ever thing that you are
> saying
> here...
>
> My personal direct experience with Susana Miller was
> exactly the same as yours, when I took her class
> here
> in Houston. I am the one who first introduced her
> here to Houston. No one here had ever heard of her
> before that to my knowledge, although now, I am sure
> that they will claim otherwise. Janell came down
> here
> from the Washington D.C. tango group to dance with
> me
> at a milonga here in Houston, and Susana Miller had
> just taught Janell a class the same week in D.C., so
> Janell told me about Susana Miller and I told the
> people here to contact her, which they did. When I
> took my first class with Susana Miller, I thought
> that
> she was cool, and that out of her disorganized way
> of
> teaching, something interesting would finally
> appear.
> Unfortunately, as time went on, she became more and
> more disorganized. I finally wrote her off
> completely
> when I saw her be rude to a local tango teacher here
> in Houston who was not teaching her style. She
> embarrassed him in public, on purpose, in front of
> his
> students. He is a very nice Argentine man, and he
> did
> not deserve this kind of treatment. When I saw
> that,
> I knew that the woman was a problem, and lacked the
> social skills needed for me to really enjoy dancing
> tango. As time went on, I also saw the local group
> here, which now "preaches" her style, become more
> and
> more anti-social and dogmatic, so I just let them go
> off and do their thing. Now, I am enjoying just
> dancing tango as a social experience, and life is
> good. People do forget that tango is more a social
> experience than a dance. If dancers lack social
> skills, the joy is gone. I have only one rule in
> tango, and that rule is, "If they are not fun, do
> not
> dance with them." It has worked so far. My
> personal
> direct experience, and my opinion. Thanks.
>
> Derik
> d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>
> --- Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your defense Manuel.
> >
> > I may have come off a bit strong in my posting,
> but
> > it was just an opinion.
> > I realize that many many people enjoy Miller's
> > classes and proclaim to get a
> > lot out of them. Maybe I caught her on an off day,
> > but I do feel that a
> > teacher with as much experience as she has should
> > know how to organize a
> > class for everyone to get something out of it.
> >
> > I think the main point I would like to make is
> this:
> > If social dancing is
> > your primary goal, which it is in my case. Take
> > classes with many teachers.
> > Take classes with teachers of many styles. Master
> > all of them. Then remove
> > what you don't like. Don't dismiss something just
> > because a teacher of one
> > style turns their nose up at it. Filter everything
> > teachers tell you through
> > your own sense of what is "right and wrong for
> you".
> >
> > The problem is that many people that dance
> > Milonguero, don't seem to think
> > of it as A style but rather THE style. Miller
> > clearly propogates this and
> > students believe her.
> >
> > I just want to be clear... I don't dislike
> Miller...
> > or think that she is a
> > bad teacher... I just don't like her ideas and
> > attitudes.. I don't think
> > that they are positive for Tango. It is nothing
> > personal.
> >
> > You have to understand that the vast majority of
> > students do not read
> > Tango-L, nor are they able to afford to go to BA.
> So
> > they may spend years
> > paying for Milonguero lessons thinking that they
> are
> > learning the ONLY
> > authentic style of tango.
> >
> > Milonguero is a perfectly valid form of tango and
> I
> > think if you were to
> > take only classes with Miller and her proteges..
> > from what I hear you will
> > be able to find plenty of people to dance with in
> > BA.
> >
> > But I would argue that if you learn proper Salon
> > Open and Close technique,
> > you will be able to go ANYWHERE that Argentine
> Tango
> > is danced and dance
> > with woman in the room. Again, because learning
> > Salon Close embrace will
> > teach you all of the elements found in Milonguero.
> > It is does not put limits
> > on what you can learn.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Clint
> > clint@tangoevolution.com
> > https://www.tangoevolution.com
>
>
>
>
> mobile phone.
>
************************
Tango Club at Yale
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Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:06:13 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: narrow-minded religiosity?
Dear Tine and Richard:
It is one thing for me, as a tango consumer, to be
really tough on the so-called professional people who
are shamelessly promoting their businesses on a
semi-public FREE consumer mailing list during a heated
discussion, and quite another thing for a person like
Susana Miller, to be rude to a fellow professional in
front of his students just in order to get business
for herself and make money. I am not trying to sell
and promote dance lessons. She is.
Sometimes we consumers have to be rude to survive all
this marketing BS. It is a very sad thing indeed.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM> wrote:
> Well said, Tine... Derik's been that way the moment
> he signed on this list.
>
>
> In a message dated 7/10/2005 10:38:23 Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM writes:
> Derik,
> No kidding, you accuse Susana of lacking social
> skills
> and being umm, RUDE, and MEAN in PUBLIC to nice
> people
> who have a different opinion from hers?
> What do you think you do, every day, on this list?
> You
> do all that and more, you are mean even to people
> who
> defend the RIGHT of people to have a different
> opinion.
> Tine
>
> --- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
> > Dear Clint:
> >
> > Exactly. I agree with ever thing that you are
> > saying
> > here...
> >
> > My personal direct experience with Susana Miller
> was
> > exactly the same as yours, when I took her class
