2339 New topic (beginner/intermediate)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:56:38 -0800
From: Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi999@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: New topic (beginner/intermediate)
Ilene,
Thanks for introducing this topic. I think this is the best
discussion we've had on the list for a while. _Everyone_ who
responded had really good comments.
I especially agree that a good leader will be able to tell that
you're a beginner. You can SAY that you are a beginner, or not.
Either way is OK. (By your description most people would probably
call you an intermediate.)
You may have heard on this list, or elsewhere, that "all mistakes are
the leader's fault". That's true, and it isn't that the
leader chivalrously takes the blame for the follower's mistakes.
It isn't even that most mistakes are due to problems with the lead,
although about 80-90% of them are, according to several respected
teachers.
The idea is that a good leader should be able to tell what kind of
dancer you are, and only lead steps and figures that you can
follow. If he doesn't do that, he is either a bad dancer or a jerk.
If the follower makes a mistake, it is because the leader led something
badly, or led something he shouldn't have led. (This is only a
rule of thumb, not an absolute law. Sometimes it is OK to play a
bit - to challenge the follower a little. But if the leader
causes you to feel awkward or make bad mistakes, it is the leader's
fault and is really unacceptable.)
If the leader is dancing with someone new, he can start out with
simple steps and figures to gauge the skill level of the follower,
continuing with more difficult stuff. But in tango it really is
easy to tell a good dancer or a not-so-good one. Here is a brief
anecdote:
A few years ago I visited New York and was dancing at a milonga.
I saw an attractive woman and caught her eye. We start to dance,
but the song ended just a we had taken up our embrace. We dropped
our arms to wait for the next tango, and I exclaimed, almost
involuntarily, "Wow, you're really a good dancer". (Turned out that
she taught some classes and did some performances.) The point is
not that I'm psychic, or especially discerning, or even a really
good dancer - I'm not any of those. It's just that tango is like
that - I could tell, so clearly that it startled me, without dancing
a single step, that the person in my arms was a very good tango
dancer.
In summary, it shouldn't matter whether or not you say you're
a beginner. A good leader should be able to give you an enjoyable
dance either way, and his responsibility is to do that. And don't
worry about mistakes - if there are any, they were the leader's
fault.
"Ricardo"
--- Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET> wrote:
> OK.Just to get back to the topic of tango ---
> Was wondering about the etiquette on this matter concerning beginning
> dancers-
>
> You've been dancing a few months- can make your way around the floor
> without tripping or looking too ridiculous, sometimes you even look
> like
> you know what you're doing. You've experienced "the zone" and look
> for
> good dancers to partner with because you know one of the best ways to
> learn is to dance "up", with someone more experienced. But the moves
> you've been learning- all those seemingly necessary steps and
> figures
> that make tango, tango, are not second nature yet.
> Now you're at a milonga and a really good dancer is looking your
> way
> wanting to dance.
> Do you tell the prospective partner that you're a beginner -or just
> leap
> into it and hope he/she doesn't get too frustrated when you get
> caught
> up in a step or don't respond to certain leads?
> The general experience seems to be that if you say you are a
> beginner,
> the experienced dancer will often keep it_ too_ simple, rather than
> leading into basic figures which you may already know and are looking
> forward to dance.
> I suppose the beginner can recite the moves that they can do..but
> does
> that put a damper on the dance?
> What would the more experienced dancer prefer in this case?
> Also, can a tango ever be too simple?
> Just wondering what your thoughts are....
> thanks~
>
>
>
>
>
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:18:14 -0700
From: Fransesca Swynford <Swynford@MAIL.IGLIDE.NET>
Subject: Re: New topic (beginner/intermediate)
This has been a helpful topic for me. The struggle I have is that I will be dancing with a good lead, but my body gets confused. Last night, he clearly lead a rear ocho, and instead of stepping back with my left I stepped forward with my right. Duh! It's like the signal gets crossed in my brain.
My instructors classify me as an "early intermediate", and I dance about 3 - 4 times a week. Any recommendations, suggestions, thoughts as to why I do this?
Fransesca
Pasadena, CA
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:02:56 -0400
From: Keith Elshaw <keith@TOTANGO.NET>
Subject: New topic (beginner/intermediate)
Francesca;
Your post was also helpful in how it was put, I'm sure.
I suggest the issue is your weight shift commitment. After-all, leading AND
following is about this.
There is a place between steps where you are leaving the last step, but have
not committed to the next. You find it by not getting excited, not being in
a hurry, not thinking. You find it when completely lost in the music and
feeling where your partner's weight is NOW. Don't anticipate or guess. Feel
it precisely "now." Waiting - suspension - is the key for both followers
and leaders. In this place of almost nano-second suspension, tango magic
happens. The real communication. The conversation.
When I lead, I'm always waiting/listening for my partner. In every beat,
more-or-less. When following, it's all about where is the leader's weight. I
say this from my bias of believing tango is essentially a walking dance. One
foot, then the other. But not in a hurry. Even in milonga - feel it it
slow-motion.
So, think about not automatically committing your weight to another step.
Make nothing "automatic." Find the nuance of the suspension moment, and when
you are there, there are no "mistakes." Only adjustment, communication.
You'll feel - sense - the direction your leader's weight is going to.
Not trying to sound like I have all the answers! (Would that I did).
Keith
https://ToTANGO.net
>This has been a helpful topic for me. The struggle I have is that I will be
dancing with a good >lead, but my body gets confused. Last night, he
clearly lead a rear ocho, and instead of stepping >back with my left I
stepped forward with my right. Duh! It's like the signal gets crossed in my
>brain.
>My instructors classify me as an "early intermediate", and I dance about 3 - 4
times a week. Any >recommendations, suggestions, thoughts as to why I do
this?
>Fransesca
>Pasadena, CA
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:56:50 -0800
From: Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi999@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: New topic (beginner/intermediate)
I was reading some old tango-l stuff and came across this message
from Robert Hauk. I have taken the liberty to quote it in its
entirety because I think it is relevant to our current discussion,
and maybe some of the new people haven't seen it. I apologize to
those who've already seen it, and I hope Robert doesn't mind.
Robert is an excellent dancer, teacher, and a really nice guy.
My point in posting it is - here is another "really good dancer"
who is happy to dance with a beginner. Leaders would do well to
emulate his approach, and he gives followers an idea of what they
might hope for dancing with a good leader.
"Ricardo" (Sorry about the formatting below)
--- Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> There has been a lot of discussion lately about dancing with
> beginners.
> It seems like everybody talks about dancing with a beginner and
> teaching
> her (I am talking to the leaders here) the things she just has to
> know
> to dance tango. I see this all the time. There are new people all
> the
> time and the women all have to go through this. The men all want to
> teach them something so they go through their first milongas being
> taught everything right there on the dance floor.
>
> When I dance with beginner I don't expect her to know anything. I
> don't tell her what she has to know to dance tango. I just dance
> with
> her. It is possible to dance an entire set without crossing once.
> It
> is possible to dance without ever going into crossed feet, or leading
> a
> single ocho. It is possible to put someone at ease on the dance
> floor
> and share a nice dance and just dance. There are so many
> possibilities
> just dancing in parallel feet that this is all that is needed. I
> dance
> with the music and the rhythm and dance the dance she can do.
> Sometimes
> these dances are quite nice when I am dancing with someone who has no
> pre-concieved ideas of tango, and who will listen to the music. I
> don't
> like to teach on the social dance floor. I asked her to dance, not
> to
> be my student. I want to give her the nicest dance I possibly can,
> and
> when the dance is a nice one she knows, and I tell her it was nice
> for
> me.
>
> I don't teach on the social dance floor. I dance the dance my
> partner
> can dance, and when I confuse her with my lead I apologize. I know
> that
> she will be taught many things on the dance floor by leaders who need
> her to know how to cross and how to do ochos, and molinetes and
> whatever.
>
> Beginners need a nice experience that will make them want to come
> back
> for more. They don't need a roomful of teachers all telling them
> that
> they don't yet know enough to dance. They need the support and
> encouragement, and the fun of nice dances.
>
> When you teach on the dance floor you miss a great oportunity to
> improve
> your dance. You tell them what to do and you never learn how to lead
> things so that they will do them without knowing what they are doing.
> Dancing with beginners can be a reality check like no other. It is
> also
> a great exercize in leading and listening to your partner. When all
> you
> do is teach you pass up practicing a skill that you need to become a
> better dancer.
>
> MAny happy dances to all,
>
> Robert
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:21:01 -0500
From: "Holton, David A." <DHolton@KFORCE.COM>
Subject: A Tango Essay (was: RE: New topic (beginner/intermediate))
I guess I have more thoughts to express on this topic because 1) I think this is a useful topic for any beginner/intermediate dancers who may =
have just joined the list, and 2) I just want to make sure my thoughts were clearly expressed (That's probably just to satisfy my own ego).
Quite honestly some of the discussion on this list a few years ago, almost had me wanting to quit Tango before I had barely gotten started. =
Between discussion of which style is "true" Tango, and the extremely high standard that seemed to be set for leaders, I was sure I would =
never measure up. There were other topics that just made me dread going to an actual Milonga, and it was a long time before I did go. I stuck =
with goup classes and a few practicas when we still had practicas here that I could attend. Luckily we have some very supportive people in =
the Tampa Bay area, who were willing to be patient with me as I struggled to learn the basics. And, they continue to be supportive as a =
person grows to new levels of understanding, skill, etc, etc.
Everyone who responed to Ilene's post has been right on the money, and basically expressed the same thoughts in various different ways. Each =
of us, at different times, are thinking about the different elements of this dance we love so much. To me the most basic ideas can be summed up =
without mentioning anything about style or technique until maybe the end of the list.
Not forgetting why this topic got started: Ilene asked if a beginner should/could mention that he or she is a beginner before they start =
dancing with a more experienced partner. I already expressed that they should not have to, however, I liked Ricardo's comment that it really =
doesn't matter one way or the other. At least it does not to me.
I respect the tradition that Tango Argentino was born out of, and I think it is important to remember and respect that. Those things made =
the dance what it is today. But, I am also not one to hold to a strict interpretation of or action on, what some seem to think are the "LAWS" =
of Tango. Just be a decent, considerate, understanding person in your dealing with others. Sometimes I do have a conversation while dancing, =
but most of the time it don't (I still have a hard time thinking about other things and dancing at the same time).
Most of these ideas have already been expressed, but even if I made a list, I'm sure I would miss some. So, I've give it a try:
1. The embrace, and by that I mean the connection and relationship that takes place during the dance. I think I'm getting to a point where I am =
more sensitive to this now, and I can enjoy and give myself to that feeling a little more than before. It really is a kind of Zen thing =
that happens between the two partners. But, both partners must give of themselves to start and nuture that connection. I think if you have =
this part, the rest of the stuff unique to Tango has or will fall into place for as long as the connection is maintained. Now that does not =
mean that you have to maintain physical contact either. Between songs, you may break physical contact, but the connection could still be there =
and just as intese when you start dancing again. (I have never experienced this connection while having a conversation while dancing, =
so I usually enjoy the "no talking" idea more.)
2. Relax. I know I'm tense when I first get on the floor, so I try to dance with someone I know well. The connection won't happen if one or =
both of the partners are tense. So, as a leader, I feel it is my responsibility to help my partner relax. One of the things that made me =
the most nervous when I started was making a mistake. I had this insane idea that experience leaders did not make mistakes. Everyone makes =
mistakes and in Tango you just learn to Tango out of it.
3. Dance to the music. I can't say anything here because I don't have this down to any level of self satisfaction yet. I'm trying, and some =
say I do well, but I know there are some very important parts of this idea missing in my dancing.
4. Don't go backwards against the line of dance or somewhere you can't see. You are only working against the other leaders on the floor when =
you do that, and you will get a bad reputation. I also think that if you do go backwards and happen to dig your heel into some woman's ankle, =
then she probably won't dance with you, so you have reduced your number of dance partners.
5. When something goes wrong while dancing, I always look at the lead first to find a place to make corrections. Yes, beginner women who have =
not yet learned or been shown proper technique, they will make mistakes that might not be the leaders actual fault. But, the leader should then =
understand that he should avoid that movement if possible while dancing with that partner. At the next Milonga, maybe try it again to see if =
her technique in that areas has improved.
6. Don't give advise voluntarily unless you are a teacher or approved by your teach to do so. And, the Milonga is not the forum for teaching. =
This is one traditional idea that I do support. I will sometimes give advise if it is asked of me, but I also keep my limitations in mind. If =
it isn't something basic, then I usually refer them to a teacher. I don't want to be the cause of someone getting into a bad habit because I =
don't fully understand everything about a particular technique. Or, if there was a particular set of steps I was trying that the follower did =
not understand, they will sometimes ask my later, what it was I was trying to lead. Well what good does it do either of us if I simple tell =
her while walking her though what she "should" have done. I will say, lets try it again (in some out of the way place, or later if there isn't =
one available), but I refuse to tell her what I want. I try to lead it in a more clear way, and probably slow the whole thing down without =
trying to keep tempo with the music. I think this approach helps my lead and help her follow in general
Plus, you really do look like a fool/jerk if you have only had a few months worth of lessons, and you think you are ready to give unsolicited =
advise. I don't care if it is at a Milonga, Practica, or group class. Let the teachers do it.
7. Understanding how Tango works, whether you can actually do it on the dance floor or not. What is mean is when you realize the possibilities =
that exist outside of the "figures" you have been taught in classes and workshops.
8. What makes Tango the Tango. I think the Denzels summed it up beautifully in their book. What differentiates us is not so much what =
we do on the dance floor, but it has much to do with how we do it. Tango has a style of movement that makes it Tango, versus ballroom =
dances (including American and International Tango). So, technique and style of movement as an individual and especially as a couple it very =
important.
As, I look at my "little" list. I think we learn this stuff from the bottom up. Beginners are trying to get the hang of the technique first. =
We eventually progress up the list as we learn and understand more about the dance. I don't know if my list is running in the correct =
order. I'm sure others may want it arranged differently. But, that just speaks to my point that we are all in different places with our =
understanding a skill. So, with that said, whether we anounce ourselves to each other as beginners doesn't matter very much. Whatever works to =
get us to the top of the list so we can enjoy our dance together and experience that deep connection with another person: That to me is the =
main goal, and the routes we take to it can be various.
'nough said. If you made it this far, thanks for putting up with my long winded babbling. Oh, and everything here is just my humble =
opinion. I'd love to hear others....
Dave Holton
St. Pete., FL
>
>Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:56:38 -0800
>From: Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi999@YAHOO.COM>
>Subject: Re: New topic (beginner/intermediate)
>
>Ilene,
>
>Thanks for introducing this topic. I think this is the best
>discussion we've had on the list for a while. _Everyone_ who
>responded had really good comments.
>.
>.(clipped)
>.
>In summary, it shouldn't matter whether or not you say you're
>a beginner. A good leader should be able to give you an enjoyable
>dance either way, and his responsibility is to do that. And don't
>worry about mistakes - if there are any, they were the leader's
>fault.
>
>"Ricardo"
>
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:37:08 -0600
From: Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: New topic (beginner/intermediate)
When a lady or leader announces that she/he is a beginner it is
primarily because they are nervous and insecure about their dance.
I tell a lady don't worry about, just relax and we will have fun. I
just start walking with a beginner until I feel the tension start to
drain from their shoulders.
I then find it possible to have ladies doing some simple patterns, they
have no idea of what they are doing, just because I get them to relax,
to trust me and follow the lead. I assure them that I or no one is going
to criticize their dance. It also helps to tell them there are no
mistakes in Tango only missed opportunities. This statement may be a
little stretch but there is also a lot of truth in it. It takes away
the guilt factor and creates an environment where both can have a nice
dance.
Leonardo K
Branson
I
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:58:33 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: New topic (beginner/intermediate)
--- Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET> wrote:
"It also helps to tell them there are no mistakes in
Tango, only missed opportunities."
I agree whole-heartedly with Leonard. Especially when
a (relatively) more experienced lead is dancing with a
less experienced follower. If something breaks their
connection, it is almost always a fault of the lead.
This is because of that most basic convention of
social tango: The lead follows the follower. I dance
with beginners in much the same way that I dance with
everyone else.
I lead a movement that feels right, based on the
music, our connection, our relative axes, and whatever
else compels.
After I lead, I wait for confirmation (or
modification) of my suggestion from the follower. She
may do this by moving, (although more experienced
followers may suggest an alternative movement, and
then wait for my confirmation - but that's another
topic all together.)
Once I receive confirmation from the follow, I try to
move with her, regardless of my original intention. If
I am unable to follow her, then I apologize for
breaking the connection (interrupting the dance). This
is a sincere apology, not an attempt to put the
follower at ease.
As a "leader", I accept responsibility for
(1) delivering a clear message to the follower,
(2) waiting for confirmation of the message, and
(3) adapting to changes in the message introduced by
the follower.
Of these three, I think that number two is often the
most important. Remember, leadership is not at all
similar to dictatorship. Leaders lead with the consent
of their followers. Dictators are just beneath
contempt.
Sean
The mostly silent half of PATangoS
P.S. On this same thread, Keith Elshaw wrote, "There
is a place between steps where you are leaving the
last step, but have not committed to the next." This
is so true. Alicia Pons expressed it beautifully at a
workshop she recently taught with Robert Hauk. She
said something along the lines of Visit your axis
between each step. Often, it s just a short visit, to
say Hola . Sometimes, it s a long visit, for cafi and
a chat. But, never pass by your axis without
visiting. If you get a chance to dance with a
follower like Alicia, count on that follower
suggesting alternatives to your lead. Especially count
on long, breathtaking conversations while visiting
your axes. Your dancing will never be about steps
again
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:01:22 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: New topic (beginner/intermediate)
Trini or Sean wrote about three step sequence in tango lead follow
interaction (see below).
I agree with general idea of listening to each other - there is no
connection otherwise. However I do not think there is a division of the lead
in the three or five or ten discreet consecutive steps - all elements (lead,
feeedback, adjustment) are present all the time throughhout steps.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] New topic (beginner/intermediate)
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:58:33 -0800
>
>--- Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET> wrote:
>"It also helps to tell them there are no mistakes in
>Tango, only missed opportunities."
>
>I agree whole-heartedly with Leonard. Especially when
>a (relatively) more experienced lead is dancing with a
>less experienced follower. If something breaks their
>connection, it is almost always a fault of the lead.
>This is because of that most basic convention of
>social tango: The lead follows the follower. I dance
>with beginners in much the same way that I dance with
>everyone else.
>I lead a movement that feels right, based on the
>music, our connection, our relative axes, and whatever
>else compels.
>After I lead, I wait for confirmation (or
>modification) of my suggestion from the follower. She
>may do this by moving, (although more experienced
>followers may suggest an alternative movement, and
>then wait for my confirmation - but that's another
>topic all together.)
>Once I receive confirmation from the follow, I try to
>move with her, regardless of my original intention. If
>I am unable to follow her, then I apologize for
>breaking the connection (interrupting the dance). This
>is a sincere apology, not an attempt to put the
>follower at ease.
>
>As a "leader", I accept responsibility for
>(1) delivering a clear message to the follower,
>(2) waiting for confirmation of the message, and
>(3) adapting to changes in the message introduced by
>the follower.
>Of these three, I think that number two is often the
>most important. Remember, leadership is not at all
>similar to dictatorship. Leaders lead with the consent
>of their followers. Dictators are just beneath
>contempt.
>
>Sean
>The mostly silent half of PATangoS
>
>P.S. On this same thread, Keith Elshaw wrote, "There
>is a place between steps where you are leaving the
>last step, but have not committed to the next." This
>is so true. Alicia Pons expressed it beautifully at a
>workshop she recently taught with Robert Hauk. She
>said something along the lines of Visit your axis
>between each step. Often, it s just a short visit, to
>say Hola . Sometimes, it s a long visit, for cafi and
>a chat. But, never pass by your axis without
>visiting. If you get a chance to dance with a
>follower like Alicia, count on that follower
>suggesting alternatives to your lead. Especially count
>on long, breathtaking conversations while visiting
>your axes. Your dancing will never be about steps
>again
>
>
>=====
>PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
>dance.
>https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:36:30 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: New topic (beginner/intermediate)
Oleh is right of course. But I can only talk about one
element at a time. The sequential ordering of sensate
experience is an artifice to facilitate organizing and
communicating ideas.
~Sean
--- Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@hotmail.com> wrote:
I agree with general idea of listening to each other -
there is no connection otherwise. However I do not
think there is a division of the lead in the three or
five or ten discreet consecutive steps - all elements
(lead, feeedback, adjustment) are present all the time
throughhout steps.
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
