157 Prioritizing in tango
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:42:54 -0500
From: Emma Sponaugle <sponaugle@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Prioritizing in tango
Dear friends,
As a classically trained cellist (and now a devoted tango enthusiast), I
remember a cello teacher telling me once that to become an "artist" one must
devote themselves to three areas of study: technique, musicality, and
performance. In music, I always found it difficult to prioritize the three,
and now also in tango. Any thoughts?
Emma in Philadelphia
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:59:28 -0700
From: "Larry E. Carroll" <larrydla@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Prioritizing in tango
You can't set one above the other. Technique, musicality, and
performance are like food, drink, and air. You have to have all
three.
Larry de Los Angeles
https://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:07:23 -0700
From: JC Dill <tango@VO.CNCHOST.COM>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
On 08:59 PM 8/22/01, Larry E. Carroll wrote:
>You can't set one above the other. Technique, musicality, and
>performance are like food, drink, and air. You have to have all
>three.
However, if you are suddenly in a survival situation, food, drink and air
DO have priorities. You need air first, if you don't have air you will die
within minutes. You need drink (water) second, without water you will die
in days. You can survive without food for weeks!
In tango, I think musicality comes first. If you don't have musicality,
you aren't dancing and tango is first and foremost a dance. With only a
little bit of musicality a beginner can get out on the floor and be
"dancing tango" the first night. Without musicality, it takes much longer.
Then you need technique, because without technique you may be dancing, but
dancing poorly. Then you need performance, it is the polish that makes
your dance shine. IMHO, YMMV, etc.
jc
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:23:59 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
JC Dill wrote:
> On 08:59 PM 8/22/01, Larry E. Carroll wrote:
> >You can't set one above the other. Technique, musicality, and
> >performance are like food, drink, and air. You have to have all
> >three.
> In tango, I think musicality comes first.
Perhaps it does. But, if it is the most difficult aspect of the dance
for someone, they might as well start out with something they could
do instead of being discouraged. That is, the thing that is easiest to
do about which one feels confident would be the best place for
someone to get their foot inside the argentine tango door.
For a musician, may be it is the musicality; for a dancer(who knows
other dances), may be it is the technique; for others, it may in fact be
repetitive execution of steps trying to put everything in place.
Whatever is done, as long as it is done well, I think that will help.
rajan.
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:43:16 -0500
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Prioritizing in tango
Mr. Carroll,
I am a 4 month new-comer to this culture. Even so green, a lot of us forgot
about food! We just need water and air, enough so that we can tango.... :-)
Bibi
>You can't set one above the other. Technique, musicality, and
>performance are like food, drink, and air. You have to have all
>three.
> Larry de Los Angeles
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:36:08 EDT
From: Jack Karako <JKarako@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
My opinion is that the first step is the technique.
Like playing an insturment or writing, one has to play right before artistic interpretation. Or know nouns and verbs before writing a story.
You cannot expect a beginner to really respond to musical elements of tango before he can execute a movement properly.
As important as it is, music is the last piece of the puzzle.
So ideally here how the progress goes:
1) Technique of the movement for a given level
2) Execution of the movement
3) Adoptaion to music
4) Technique of the movement for the next level
..
Jak
Dancer / politician in New York
www.BailaTango.com
www.ElectJak.org
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:35:46 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
Jack wrote:
{"My opinion is that the first step is the technique.
Like playing an insturment or writing, one has to play right before artistic
interpretation. Or know nouns and verbs before writing a story.
You cannot expect a beginner to really respond to musical elements of tango
before he can execute a movement properly.
As important as it is, music is the last piece of the puzzle.
So ideally here how the progress goes:
1) Technique of the movement for a given level
2) Execution of the movement
3) Adoptaion to music
4) Technique of the movement for the next level"}
"Music is the last piece of the puzzle".....!?????????!!!!
Hmmmmm........... Since dance is an art, I'm sure there's no "right" or
"wrong" answer, but I notice a distinct difference in those people who
derive their movements from the music, and those who try to fit their
movements/technique to the music. To me, dance is a way to express the way
music makes us feel. Learning technique and then trying to plug it into the
music somehow seems a rather mechanical, inhumanly perfect, and forceful way
to learn to "dance". I'd rather dance with someone who really feels the
music and creates movement and expression from the music than someone with
perfect technique who doesn't really feel the music. Once someone feels the
music and begins to move to it, the need for technique becomes apparent and
thus becomes a tangible need, rather than a mysterious requirement to be
explained later. Therefore, I'd prefer to start someone out with an
appreciation and understanding of the music first thing.
A good example: A friend of mine asked me why I was so wound up about
learning to "walk". She could not grasp why the walk was the foundation for
such an exquisite dance. I brought her inside and played 2-3 tangos, a
couple of valses, and a couple of milongas from a few different orchestras.
I didn't say a word other than encouraging her to just listen and feel the
music, telling her the answer to her question was in the music. She'd never
heard tango music before and she's never danced much but after listening to
the songs I played she understood completely why the walk was so important -
she picked the walking beat out of each song very quickly. I then embraced
her and we "walked" around the room to one of the valses. It was a great
dance, and she was so focused on feeling the walking beat that she didn't
get a bunch of inhibitions about the embrace and how she was stepping, etc.
She stated with amazement that she felt like she was dancing even though all
we did was "walk".
Good enough for me.
Dan
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:33:12 EDT
From: Jack Karako <JKarako@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
Dan writes...
I'd rather dance with someone who really feels the
music and creates movement and expression from the music than someone with perfect technique who doesn't really feel the music.
-------------------------
The topic of the conversation is not which one of the elemenets can be missing in tango. It is which one, one should focus on first. Feeling the music cannot be taught (except making someone to listen to tango, which doesn't mean they will feel it). Where does one START learning tango (art)? From the beginning, not from it's ultimate end.
Don also wrote:
Since dance is an art, I'm sure there's no "right" or
"wrong" answer, ...
------------------
I beg to differ. Art does not have to be subjective. The widely accepted view is that it is, which is only serving bad art (since it is as valid as the good one). It is not an easy process but art can be defined objectively. There are rights or wrongs, especially in art (and tango).
Jak
Tango dancer / poltician in NY
www.Bailatango.com
www.electjak.org
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:25:59 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
I think that it may be useful to distinguish between learning and dancing.
As a sometime musician, I often find myself playing through new pieces on
the guitar without worrying about the tempo, phrasing, etc. I am simply
trying to get the right notes under my fingers. Then I work on timing,
phrasing and technique. When I am playing, the timing and phrasing come
first. I get the rhythm right. I take the same approach to learning and
dancing tango.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:29:05 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
> Dan writes...
>
> I'd rather dance with someone who really feels the
> music and creates movement and expression from the music than someone with
perfect technique who doesn't really feel the music.
> -------------------------
If a dancer has developed "perfect technique", it is almost a certainty that
he or she has mastered all aspects of the dance. This person would be much
more adept and able to create movement and express themselves through the
dance than any "average" dancer, let alone one who has poor or no technique.
Give me a "perfect technique" partner anytime!!
> Don also wrote:
> Since dance is an art, I'm sure there's no "right" or
> "wrong" answer, ...
> ------------------
> I beg to differ. Art does not have to be subjective. The widely accepted
view is that it is, which is only serving bad art (since it is as valid as
the good one). It is not an easy process but art can be defined objectively.
There are rights or wrongs, especially in art (and tango).
>
> Jak
I definitely agree with Jack on this. There are many "wrong" ways to dance
tango (and almost all other types of dance). Although there is a comforting
sound in the "touchy-feely" theory of "there is no rigth or wrong way" to do
almost anything, it is in fact far from the truth. There is indeed bad art
and abominable dancing perpetrated all the time (not, of course, by any of
the gentle readers;-))
Cheers,
Manuel
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:46:30 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
A private email suggested to me that perhaps my previous comments were a
bit unclear.
I think that it may be useful to distinguish between learning and dancing
in setting priorities.
When learning to dance tango, I find myself first trying to understand the
follower's part, then the lead, then the leader's footwork. Once I
understand the mechanics of the figure, I work on improving my technique.
I may not even take the trouble of trying to match the movements to the
rhythm of the music. When I am dancing tango socially, I start with the
feeling, then the music. Technique and footwork take a secondary role.
What I seek in a dance partner also differs between the classroom and the
dance floor. In the classroom I want flawless technique from my partner.
When dancing socially, feeling and musicality is what I want.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:14:58 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
Manuel Patino wrote:
> > Don also wrote:
> > Since dance is an art, I'm sure there's no "right" or
> > "wrong" answer, ...
> > ------------------
> > I beg to differ. Art does not have to be subjective. The widely accepted
> view is that it is, which is only serving bad art (since it is as valid as
> the good one). It is not an easy process but art can be defined objectively.
> There are rights or wrongs, especially in art (and tango).
> > Jak
>
> I definitely agree with Jack on this. There are many "wrong" ways to dance
> tango (and almost all other types of dance).
>
While there may be 'rights' and 'wrongs', it seems to be generally accepted
that
there are many different styles of tango and each style has some difference in
technique as well(I am referring to the notes from Steve Brown to the list a
while ago.)
So, I guess, one would want to know when is it that something not a difference
in
technique but is in fact a wrong way of dancing tango (and I am not trying to
imply
that everything, rights and wrongs, is just a matter of difference in
technique.)
May be that is even an acceptable way of rephrasing Don's original comments.
rajan.
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:38:45 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
----- Original Message -----
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:04:02 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
I think the problem--which was identified by one of the first responses--is
in trying to establish absolute and immutable priorties. Priorties are
relative. Can one dance tango well with poor technique, a poor sense of
musicality, or a poor knowledge of dance steps? Obviously all are
essential to some degree whether learning, practicing, dancing socially or
dancing in performance. I would argue that each of us would value most
that which we find relatively scarce at the moment. I would further argue
that what we consider relatively scarce would depend upon our own skills,
those of our partners and the situation. To go back to the air, water and
food analogy, we would place a higher priority on food if air and water are
relatively abundant and it has been a long time since we last ate.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:07:21 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
Manuel Patino wrote:
> Disdaining "perfect technique" as not being an
> integral part of good dancing is one of these oximoronic statements.
There is nothing wrong with having 'perfect technique'. Who would
not want it?(I am sure even those who say they do not want it will
take it if it came for free-- without effort). It is a part of good
dancing -- just that it is not an 'integral' part.
Robert Frost, explains that he decided to start writing even though
he was not there yet, with the imperfect knowledge, the reason being
something like: "If one were to wait until one had perfect knowledge,
one would be fifty before writing the first word".
For a social dance, like argentine tango, imperfect technique may
be ok, as long as it does not cause anyone injuries ;-)
rajan.
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:54:28 GMT
From: "Sa, Na-W, Na-C, Na-E, Misc" <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Prioritizing in tango
There's been a lot of discussion on the sequence of
learning tango: musicality, figures, and I forget
the third.
Everybody learns differently so to suggest that
there is a prescribed "correct" sequence is dangerous.
Everybody learns at a different rate.
Everybody learns differently because they bring
their own skills and problems to dance.
Some analyze too much, some not enough. Some feel
music, some feel nothing.
IMHO, it's good to emphasize the three elements (of
which I remember two.) As dancers progress, they
should understand the three elements. It should
never be "I'll learn everything about figures. Then
I'll learn everything about musicality. Then I'll
learn everything about (the third element)."
We learn each element in pieces and many times
return to what we thought we understood.
What amazes me about tango, is the more I dance,
the more I dance, I more I realize how little I know.
My teacher showed me a clipping from a newspaper
"Supreme confidence is the feeling you have before you
truly understand the problem." It must have been
written by a tango teacher.
Michael Ditkoff
Still trying to figure out tango in Washington, DC
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:50:27 -0700
From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Prioritizing in tango
--- Jack Karako <JKarako@AOL.COM> wrote:
> Feeling the music
> cannot be taught (except making someone to listen to
> tango, which doesn't mean they will feel it). Where
> does one START learning tango (art)? From the
> beginning, not from it's ultimate end.
>
Bullocks. Music can definitely be taught. Musicality
can definitely be taught. I think the misconception
that musicality (within tango communities) cannot be
taught comes down 2 reasons:
1. The person who's teaching the musicality course
either has very little clue on what musicality is
himself/herself, or does not understand how it relates
to dancers.
2. The student is not interested in learning
musicality. He/she is just interested in a quick fix
way to make their dancing look better.
> I beg to differ. Art does not have to be subjective.
> The widely accepted view is that it is, which is
> only serving bad art (since it is as valid as the
> good one). It is not an easy process but art can be
> defined objectively. There are rights or wrongs,
> especially in art (and tango).
>
This statement is complete absurd. I beleive that art
is completely subjective. To define it otherwise, I
would not call it art. Maybe we differ in our
definition of art then.
Different things appeal to different people. To have a
concept of right and wrong, you first have to create a
framework to in order to test whether or not what it
is you're talking about is "right" or "wrong".
Creating this framework destroys the meaning of art in
my mind.
I believe music is art. There are many forms of music.
But if in someone's veiw, music is 4/4 time signature
in G minor key with a tempo of 80 beats per minute and
x number of measures in a song. Any song that does not
fit this description is not music - eg. it's wrong.
And any song that does fit this description is music -
eg. it's right. You are making it objective and it's
absurd.
There are many different genre of music - Indian,
Gamelan, etc. Most people are only familiar with
Western music. If it's not Western music, does that
mean that it's not art? Is Piazzolla not tango? So, I
disagree completely with your statement Jak. Sorry.
To address the original question:
technique, musicality, performance...
I would venture to generalize (and forgive me for
doing so) that most of North America concentrates most
on performance. People here loves to watch and loves
to be seen. They sometimes explore technique but only
to make their performance better. Much less so with
musicality but again, first and formost is
performance. Most people in tango are driven visually.
It's sad but it's almost certainly a fact. Again, this
is a hugh generalization.
Leopoldo
=====
Leopoldo Betrico
Buenos Aires
