693  REAL men ? (was: bailatangotrip to Istanbul)

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:56:42 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: REAL men ? (was: bailatangotrip to Istanbul)

"REAL men"... I wonder what a

> REAL man is (tango wise) and also, what a REAL woman is ...cause IMHO

women

> in tango do not always behave perfectly,or do they ?
> Helene from Geneva

Now this is an interesting subject, at last. Hereby I would like to start an
inquiry with the other tango-l ladies and gentlemen, what a "real man" is in
tango.
Is a real man in tango particularly male and macho ? Or is he more sensitive
and caring than the general European idea of "real men", or anything
promoted in the Marlboro advertisements ?
Does a "real man" take a woman back to her seat after a dance? Or is a "real
man" such a rare pleasure to be found on the dance floor, that she will
forgive him such a little oversight, if he doesn't ? Does a "real man"
accept invitations to dance, or does he turn them down and insist on his own
timing, like some Argentines, I have encountered at milongas ? Is a "real
man" always a better dancer, or does he become a "real man" gradually, while
(and -if ?) he learns how to dance tango?
Sergio, your turn, if you are there

Astrid

(the incessant summer heat is getting to me ; ) )

>

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:48:13 -0700
From: Andrew Allison <Andrew@AALLISON.COM>
Subject: Real Men

Sergio wrote:

>There is no doubt that a man in tango is male and macho . . . He cares for
>the well-being, safety and happiness of his woman . . . .

Well of course! But this has little to do with the social interaction at a
milonga. Sergio describes the relationship between a couple who have no
interest in dancing with anybody else (because no polite individual would
presume to intrude upon such a close "embrace"). However, many, if not
most, tanguerros want to dance with as many people as possible, and this
calls for different, albiet equally courteous behavior.

One should always respect the mores of the culture in which one finds
oneself -- which means, for example, using the Argentinian woman's indirect
way of inviting a man to invite her (eye contact), rather than the more
direct approach which is perfectly acceptable in the US when in Argentina
or another country in which the mores are different (and when not, treating
a direct invitation as the compliment it represents rather than a threat to
your manhood!). When in Rome . . ., but always with mutual respect. Andrew

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:59:31 -0700
From: sarah La Rocca <danzisima@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: real men

Dear List,

I find this scrambling to define a "real man" rather
absurb and yes, even offensive. It is a big complex
and diverse world. A "real man" is anyone with the
appropriate equipment between his legs, whether he
leads, follows, dances with men, women or both at the
same time reguardless of where he was born and lives.
I keep waiting for tango to join the 21st century, but
often it seems to be a loosing battle. why cant we
just dance in peace without these limited outdated
stereotypes? And you wonder why more young people
don't get into tango? Who born after 1970 wants to
subscribe to that definition of man hood?

Makes me shudder to think what the concept of a "real
woman" is.

Sarah La Rocca
NYC

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Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 08:30:03 -0400
From: DANCE MORE TANGO TEES 'N THINGS <24tango@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: REAL MEN

Please tell me where I can find the gentleman portrayed below in Sergios
post....Have shoes, will travel.

> To be Macho the Argentinean way is to be self confident, to be certain of
> where a man stands and where he is going. He is in charge, he is reliable
> and accepts responsibility. He cares for the well-being, safety and
> happiness of his woman.
>
> When walking on the side-walks he allows the lady the inner side, the side
> closer to the wall and away from the street for her protection. He enters
> the milonga holding her hand in a ceremonious way and allows her to walk in
> front following the maitre to the table. There he grants her the area behind
> the table as he sits to the side with his legs exposed. He pases his arm
> accros her shoulders for everybody to know that he is in charge of all her
> needs.
>
> When dancing he acts with conviction, poised and certain of his rol, he
> leads. He talks for some time awaiting to get the feeling of the music. He
> initiates the embrace allowing her to decide how close she wishes to be. The
> musics evokes in his mind the moves of the dance, he leads by transferring
> that feeling to her. He is always in charge, moves through the floor
> effortlessly, without interfering or disturbing the other couples. Navigates
> with grace and determinatio. He makes sure that she is enjoying the moment.
> He allows time for her artistic expression, is attentive to her spiritual
> and physical needs.
> After the music stops he holds her in his arms for a few more instants, like
> the real treasure that she is. Then he walks slowly to the table allowing
> her to walk in front. He pays for all the expenses, never allowing a lady to
> pay for anything.
> He is happy to be male, she is happy to be female. Both are equal in their
> relatioship. They do not compete, rather cooperate, they walk hand in hand
> helping and respecting each other. The strenght of the woman is in her
> femeneity, something mysterious that the man treasures and respects. His
> strenght is in his masculinity, something different that she also respects .
> Yes, some Argentinean men may object to a woman taking a masculine rol. They
> may strongly dislike such behavior. Most Argentinean. women will as well.
> Tango then reflects the cultural elements of Argentinean society at the time
> of its evolution. Even when some of those values are rapidly disappearing
> they are still alive and prevalent in the tango world. It is my impression
> that they are some of the strongest attractions to the modern couples, a
> place where for an instant the man and the woman can still be masculine and
> feminine without further consequences.

regards to the list,
norma
www.dancemoretango.com

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:39:59 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: REAL men ?

Greetings all,

...a belated response to Astrid from a very distracted listero...

> Now this is an interesting subject, at last. Hereby I would like to start an
> inquiry with the other tango-l ladies and gentlemen, what a "real man" is in
> tango.

I personally question whether an idealized "real man" even dances.
...any dance - not only tango... Those among us who find it necessary
to soothe our animal soul in a milonga, to desire and to seek the
emotional affirmation of sharing a musical embrace, we're frankly pretty
needy. Perhaps that affirmation is acceptance by the opposite sex. Or
perhaps it's more to assuage homesickness or another longing - it
doesn't matter. Those needs seem rather contrary to the image of
independence and strength that many ideals of manhood incorporate
(IMHO). But accepting the 'weakness' (said with a wink) that he dances,
Sergio's reply was particularly interesting. ...especially in light of
the significant differences in customs and mores that somewhat follow
various nationalities. The "real man" he describes is considerate and
generous, qualities that are not so dependent on culture. Perhaps the
particular ways in which those qualities are manifest differ
significantly among places around the world where tango is danced. But
I think those details don't matter. Consideration and generosity for
the woman - quality one.

> Is a real man in tango particularly male and macho ?

Good question. Every person has a limit to their generosity and
consideration. If you ask me, a "real man of tango" should know exactly
what his limits are. I have seen follower's expectations for
consideration during the dance and away from the music become remarkably
trivial and manipulative. At some point, our "real man" has to have the
character to say 'thank you', and literally or figuratively deliver her
to her table and walk away. Self respect and respect for tango itself -
quality two.

Finally, Is he a good dancer? He definitely *thinks* he is!
Confidence is important. But IMHO the "real man of tango" shouldn't
emulate a 'compadrito' or even other dancers. Nothing gives me a worse
impression of a dancer than to see him hiding behind a fadora.
Ridiculous. ...and there are other icons that are almost as telling -
including certain patterned tango figures. Costumes and figures rarely
succeed, IMHO. The guy with disingenuous looks and steps does NOT
project confidence. Is there any more important quality in tango, on or
off the floor, than emotional honesty and openness? How can a guy who
wants you to think he is somebody else (even if it's a role model like
Chicho) then take you out on the floor and succeed in showing you
something so personal - how *HE* feels the tango???

There are many traps and mis-steps in the learning of tango. We all
have our reasons for dancing. Until we know whether they are virtues or
vices, I think there is no single ideal to which we can aspire nor from
which we can judge ourselves and others. Probably the "real men" aren't
even dancing.


Best wishes and sorry I can't contribute more regularly just now,

Frank in Minneapolis

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:17:32 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: REAL men ?

Frank wrote:
Those among us who find it necessary

> to soothe our animal soul in a milonga, to desire and to seek the
> emotional affirmation of sharing a musical embrace, we're frankly pretty
> needy. Perhaps that affirmation is acceptance by the opposite

sex....Probably the "real men" aren't

> even dancing.

Well, there are "real men" and real men, Frank.. In my opinion, a real man
admits his need for a woman. The milonga is a perfect place for expressing
that, (in a more or less artistic way) and enjoying the outcome. I would
say, women are probably not much different from that.
Tango can be images of the art of seduction. And art that appears out of
nowhere and then vanishes instantly as the music fades. Unless you record it
on video. Then it is like watching yourself when you were painting a picture
with a friend of the interplay between you.

Astrid

>