1350 Rejections
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 01:13:41 -0400
From: Nicole Dowell <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: Re: Rejections
Mark wrote:
(One of the worst is to say no I don't want to dance then turn around and dance to the same song with another man. Use of the cabaceo does away with this ego-deflating eventuality. What's so hard about catching somebody's eye?)
I don't really understand why the men feel they need to have an explanation as to why we refuse a dance. As a woman, sorry....I just don't think I have to explain. We have our reasons. The rejection could come from thousands of reasons...but why worry about it? I just may not feel like dancing at that moment, and then a close friend asks to dance, or someone that I've been promising a dance to and decide in the last minute...ok, I'll go dance since I know I'm leaving soon after. Maybe it's something personal to the guy and maybe it isn't. But guys....don't worry about it so much if a lady refuses you. If many ladies refuse you often, then maybe it's you and you should worry about it then. Otherwise, rejections happen everyday in life...if I pondered always why someone rejected me (work, auditions, relationships) I'd have no confidence in myself.
Unless you are in a city that you are visiting, I've never understood all this confusion as to how we should treat each other at the milongas. In Miami, we have a fairly good size community of tangueros who all know each other, and I can't imagine in most cities where the tango community is so large that the members haven't become friends with each other. So... why is there so much question as to how to treat each other?
As for cabaceo... This is something I still have a hard time with. I guess I never make good enough eye contact with people. I've had many times people have told me...."so-and-so" was signalling you to dance! They were? I always miss it!!! I need someone to be more obvious I guess.
Nicole
Miami
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:04:38 -0700
From: Andrew Allison <Andrew@AALLISON.COM>
Subject: Rejections
Nicole wrote: "I don't really understand why the men feel they need to have
an explanation as to why we refuse a dance."
I don't understand why the women feel that the men need an explanation, or
why a woman would want to dance with somebody who insists on one. A woman
has the absolute right to decline (graciously, of course) an invitation
without explanation. IMO, lying is bad for everybody. Here's an example of
why: At a TangoFantasy milonga last month. I invited a lady to dance, we
failed to connect, and she excused herself after one dance because of "pain
from a pre-existing foot injury." I wasn't offended by the obvious lie, or
by the fact that she danced the next dance with somebody else, just sorry
that she had felt it necessary to demean us both by lying about the reason.
Regards, Andrew
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 12:51:03 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Rejections
To Andrew Allison and list,
"we failed to connect, and she excused herself after one dance because of
"pain from a pre-existing foot injury."
"she had felt it necessary to demean us both by lying about the reason."
It was very graceful to accept your described situation. Just curious, in
this situation, what should the lady say to avoid demeaning both parties:
- when both partners fail to connect after one dance?
- when invitee has recently danced with the invitor and know pretty sure
that if they dance a new tanda, it will not connect?
Yesterday I was approached by a persistent friend, after I declined by
saying, "The next one, ok?", I was then being questioned, "Why?" I had my
genuine reason (promised somebody else beforehand) but had I not know him as
a friend, I almost wanted to take the 5th......
Tango-L advisors, where were you when I need you? :-)
Thx
BB
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 13:33:05 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Rejections
Andrew wrote:
>>>
IMO, lying is bad for everybody. Here's an example of why: At a TangoFantasy
milonga last month. I invited a lady to dance, we failed to connect, and she
excused herself after one dance because of "pain from a pre-existing foot
injury." I wasn't offended by the obvious lie, or by the fact that she
danced
the next dance with somebody else, just sorry that she had felt it necessary
to demean us both by lying about the reason.
<<<
I know what you are saying here, and from the perspective you've chosen,
it's hard to feel good about the situation you describe. An alternative
perspective might be: she may not be lying, she may in fact be noticing her
very real foot pain because the non-connected dance wasn't powerful enough
to distract her attention from the pain. I know many women who dance with
foot pain. I am not qualified to comment on the wisdom of the practice, but
I can understand their decision. My impression is that they endure pain in
order to roll the dice for the chance at a beautiful dance, which will
temporarily move their attention from the pain to the sweet connection with
their partner.
In this case, she may be telling the truth about her pain sensations, AND it
would still make sense for her to be dancing the next dance with someone
else, because...it's another roll of the dice - maybe this dance WILL
distract her from her pain...and there's only so much time left that night
before the pain becomes REALLY unpleasant, so it's best to not invest time
in a non-connected partnership.
I'm just speculating here, and would welcome any follower's feedback.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
============================
"...after that tango, we are no longer strangers..."
--- Robert Heinlein, "The Number of the Beast"
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 14:31:22 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rejections
Bibi has written:
> Yesterday I was approached by a persistent friend, after I declined by
> saying, "The next one, ok?", I was then being questioned, "Why?" I had my
> genuine reason (promised somebody else beforehand) but had I not know him
> as a friend, I almost wanted to take the 5th......
It sounds that you were gracious, as usual. Naturally, all manner of
situations can develop among acquaintances, and the solutions are all
unique. My comment was meant to say that not *feeling inspired* is a
perfectly good reason to decline a dance. You can soften up what you say
with a little creativity, but it is a matter of respect to not lie about it.
Dancing without inspiration is pointless. I know many people who would
rather sit than simply go kinetic (much less struggle) on the floor. They
are waiting, by choice, for the RIGHT music and partner to say with their
bodies what needs to be said.
I sometimes arrange with friends well in advance to find each other on the
next tanda of a particular music (e.g., vals), whenever it happens to be
played. It leaves less to chance.
> For instance, you bet that I will hunt you down next time with a
> specific waltz. I would be very sympathetic to any lovely gentlemen
> getting in the way unawaringly, but my answer to them, regretfully,
> would still be a no ... :-)
Hunting not necessary, BB - your reservation is welcome! ;-)
Cheers, all!
Frank - Mpls.
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 14:15:26 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@EARTHNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Rejections
From Brian's message:
>"...after that tango, we are no longer strangers..."
>--- Robert Heinlein, "The Number of the Beast"
And Oscar Wilde said, "Familiarity breeds contempt... and children".
Gentlemen,
If a lady lies to you about her foot pain and she really does not want to
dance with you after the first dance, then it is better that you know that
right away and move on to dancing with the partners who WANT to dance with
you. At that point, you have no business to even wish to continue with her
because your creative energy can be placed much better with another partner
who will enjoy dancing with you.
And you should not feel bad about it! It is great that she decided to quit
because the point is to enjoy, and one simply cannot enjoy a dance with
someone who does not enjoy it in return. It is not even a rejection.
I say, boundaries, boundaries. A well defined personal space guarantees
that we will not overreact to the actions of other people. One of my
favorite quotes is by Victor Frankl, who said that it the ultimate human
freedom to control how we respond to our circumstances.
So take nothing personally and move on dancing with people who enjoy your
company!
Happy dancing to all!
Nina Pesochinsky
Tango Maverick Ent.
Denver, Colorado
720/434-4342
At 01:33 PM 6/4/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>Andrew wrote:
> >>>
>IMO, lying is bad for everybody. Here's an example of why: At a TangoFantasy
>milonga last month. I invited a lady to dance, we failed to connect, and she
>excused herself after one dance because of "pain from a pre-existing foot
>injury." I wasn't offended by the obvious lie, or by the fact that she
>danced
>the next dance with somebody else, just sorry that she had felt it necessary
>to demean us both by lying about the reason.
><<<
And Brian
>In this case, she may be telling the truth about her pain sensations, AND it
>would still make sense for her to be dancing the next dance with someone
>else, because...it's another roll of the dice - maybe this dance WILL
>distract her from her pain...and there's only so much time left that night
>before the pain becomes REALLY unpleasant, so it's best to not invest time
>in a non-connected partnership.
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 01:51:17 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Rejections
Today I asked a friend of mine why it was that, even though I know a few
men are attracted to me, that nobody asks me out? He thought awhile and
said "You're too honest. Men don't like that"
So, what'll it be - the nice little lie or the hard truth?
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 00:18:42 -0700
From: Ward Stevens <wcstevens@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Rejections
Dear Lois,
I vote for the hard truth.
-Ward.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 11:51 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Rejections
Today I asked a friend of mine why it was that, even though I know a few
men are attracted to me, that nobody asks me out? He thought awhile and
said "You're too honest. Men don't like that"
So, what'll it be - the nice little lie or the hard truth?
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 23:13:05 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Rejections
Brian wrote:
An alternative perspective might be: she may not be lying, she may in fact
be noticing her
> very real foot pain because the non-connected dance wasn't powerful enough
> to distract her attention from the pain. ... My impression is that they
endure pain in
> order to roll the dice for the chance at a beautiful dance, which will
> temporarily move their attention from the pain to the sweet connection
with
> their partner.
> In this case, she may be telling the truth about her pain sensations, AND
it
> would still make sense for her to be dancing the next dance with someone
> else, because...it's another roll of the dice - maybe this dance WILL
> distract her from her pain...>
I'm just speculating here, and would welcome any follower's feedback.
As a woman, I think, it is a rather far fetched idea, that women should
dance more in order to distract themselves from footpain (which was brought
on by dancing in the first place). I think, a much more likely explanation
is, and that may also go for the lady who rejected someone because o "a sore
back", that some men bring on or aggravate a woman's pain by the way they
dance, and some don't. As simple as that.
I once had private lessons with a dance teacher, who started his dance
education at the age of five. He always stretched the importance of having
"perfect balance at all times"to me. He was very tall, so I wore my highest
heels, and danced with him for one or two hours every day. The amazing thing
was, my feet never hurt! Maybe for ten minutes after the lesson, but by the
time I had changed my shoes, the pain was already gone.
While there are other men who put weight on me, which goes right down on my
already hard working arch and severely aggravates the strain of dancing in
high heels. There are men, who will not let me finish my pivot properly, and
pull me of balance at the end of it, when they start their next step too
soon. This also distributes the weight on my pivoting foot unevenly, and
causes strain. There are men who will lean on me, or throw me off my axis
during turns, giving me a lower backache after half a song, which then gets
more uncomfortable every minute (women's bodies are not made for carrying
men, not even for half of every minute, and especially not, when the lady is
wearing high heels. Women also do not like to be pulled and thrown around in
circles, it pulls the muscles of her back and makes her feel like he is
treating her like a wet towel.)
The way to deal with these men, is to smile noncommittally and say "Thank
you" after one song. Or, if one already knows, that this is what they tend
to do, to politely decline their invitations to dance, til they have become
better dancers. It is not even necessary to tell them "My back hurts/ My
foot hurts".
But if a woman declines a dance with a certain man, he should think about
what he can improve in order to make himself a more desirable dance partner,
instead of planning revenge for having his ego insulted.
Sorry for bringing on more misery for the rejectees, but taking these things
into consideration can only improve your situation in the long run. And
Brian, you wanted feedback, right ?
Astrid
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 09:16:00 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Rejections
Astrid writes:
> As a woman, I think, it is a rather far fetched idea, that women should
>dance more in order to distract themselves from footpain (which was >brought on by dancing in the first place). I think, a much more likely
> explanation is, and that may also go for the lady who rejected someone
> because o "a sore back", that some men bring on or aggravate a
> woman's pain by the way they dance, and some don't. As simple as that.
Hi Astrid!
How's things in JP? I'm going to come visit some day & we'll dance a ton of Tangos. We'll have a so much fun. I've been partner dancing for 14 years & Tango for 4.17 years (yes I was an engineer, barf...;o) & I know how to lead really well & take a lot of care of my partners. I dance ~5,6 nights/week, lots of styles & am so careful. Anyway, this person, with the "sore back", had no issue with sneaking into my bday line & we dance extra-ordinarily well together with lots of my more challenging moves. Perhaps it was pain-killers, that's a joke. So, no worries.
Ok, couple more postings & its back to making a woo-ing CD for the new gal. ;o) you remember the Jesus Christ Superstar song, sung by Sarah Brightman/Mary Magdalene: "I don't know how to love him?" ;o)
Rick
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 16:58:30 +0200
From: DW-private <dwajn@IMAGE.DK>
Subject: rejections
Dan Wajnman
pw@dwajn.dk
Subject: rejections
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 16:58:30 +0200
From: DW-private <dwajn@IMAGE.DK>
Subject: rejections
Dan Wajnman
pw@dwajn.dk
Subject: rejections
Nicole wrote: "I don't really understand why the men feel they need to
have
an explanation as to why we refuse a dance."
Rejection is a painful thing. You ladies need to understand that a man
makes an effort asking you to dance and risking rejection and is
therefore entitled to kind treatment. And there is no 'gracious'
rejection without lying. How could it be? Tell me 'graciously' that you
prefer another man? How would you go about it? Perhaps: 'I don't want to
dance with you but I'll marry you?' ?? This is gracious enough, but a
bit dangerous, isn't it?
So, ladies, please lie to us if you must. And fully expect never to be
asked again by the man you refused, that's only fair.
If the rejection is not absolute, just concerning the next dance, make
it clear - but then it's not a rejection, of course. And in that case
you don't need explaining, just say: 'in an hour', or 'at the next
milonga'.
Men - when a lady asks us to dance - never refuse!! Never and under no
circumstances, if your back hurts to much hurry to the nearest emergency
ward.
Dan
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 08:38:41 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Rejections
Nicole Dowell wrote on Wed, 4 Jun 2003:
>I don't really understand why the men feel they need to have an
>explanation as to why we refuse a dance. As a woman, sorry....I just
>don't think I have to explain. We have our reasons. The rejection
>could come from thousands of reason s...but why worry about it? I just
>may not feel like dancing at that moment, a
Human diversity. You don't *have* to explain. But consider, if I ask a
woman to dance and she simply says "No, thank you", then, I will not
pester her by asking her to dance at some other time. If she would rather
never dance with me that is probably the easiest for both of us.
If she does have a reason for not dancing at that time but would like to
dance with me at other times, then I need to know that she wants me to ask
her again. I am pretty poor at reading minds so she should flat out tell
me that she would like me to ask her again, perhaps that means later in
the dance, or perhaps that means another day.
I don't know how representative my approach is but I would suggest that if
you are saying no to someone because you are tired, or need to leave, or
don't like the music but would otherwise enjoy dancing with then it would
probably be best to let them know or they might decide as I would to not
pester you again.
peace,
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:39:09 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: rejection
This whole thing about the pain of rejection seems ... not sure even what
words to use. Whining? Whatever. We're MEN. We're supposed to be stable and
grounded, secure and confident in our masculine yang INTENTION. That's what
we Must evoke in order to lead with sureness and clarity. So my first
reaction is, get off it, just get back to working on improving our dancing
and making the experience as comfortable as possible for our followers.
That's what it's all about, isn't it?
I also subscribe to don Miguel Ruiz's Four Agreements, one of which is never
take anything personally. People reject you for reasons of their own, and
most of the time they have Nothing to do with you. Another of the 4
agreements is to always do your best. I can't speak for other men, and don't
want to respond to what seems to be obvious gender stereotyping about men
not taking directions, or maybe I'm outside the norm, but speaking for
myself, I welcome a follower telling me when I'm doing something wrong. I
will admit it is often a difficult message to hear, and I could tell you an
incident from a couple of years ago of such a corrective comment from a
follower. But I still ask her to dance, and have always appreciated her
integrity and honesty and helpfulness in being candid with me. That said,
the truth is that I didn't know how to fix the problem, and struggled with
it for another year or more before someone else commented on the same defect
in a different way that made me understand exactly What I was doing that was
causing the problem.
That said, it's important to remember there are gentle and non-judgemental
and non-guilt-tripping ways to make such suggestions, and there are hurtful
ways. I know when I am dancing with a new follower, and I can see something
she's doing wrong that she is struggling with, I try to be very cafeful and
gentle, and will ask first if she'd like a pointer, and assuming she agrees,
make my suggestion.
J in Portland
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 16:14:01 +0000
From: ahshol Kahn <kahn44@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Rejections
Somebody wrote:
"I'm not suggesting a woman teach a man how to dance, but I am suggesting a
woman doesn't have to endure pain and should tell a man when she is in pain.
"My hand hurts." "I losing my balance." Indirectly, the woman is telling the
man he's doing a poor job of leading. If he is smart, he will try to
understand what the woman is talking about. If he gets defensive and
offensive, the woman should write down his name AND NEVER DANCE WITH HIM
AGAIN!!"
You could save yourselves lots of trouble by following some simple rules,
present in any milonga in Buenos Aires.
You go to the milonga to have a good time not to do charity.
You arrive to the milonga and first look around to see how the women/or the
men dance.
Once you find somebody you feel attracted to dance with and who is at your
dancing level, either average or advanced for beginners do not belong in the
milonga, then you try to invite her with the proper ritual of "Cabeceo". She
tries to stare at him to see id he will invite.
Once you have danced for a while and are having fun then you may wish to
dance with someone out of a special frienship or because you wish to help
her/him to improve her/his dancing.
At the milonga you do not give any instruction and much less criticism of
any sort.
If there are severe problems for either of the dancers the dance is
interrupted at the end of that tango.
You do not invite women that you do not like to dance with, women do not
accepte dancing with men that they do not enjoy dancing with.
Each person has several repetitive partners at the milongas and limits
dancing with them, once in a while appears somebody else.
Criticism, experimentation, etc, is done at the practicas. There you can
help people that you like.
*not at the milongas. The beginner belongs in the practicas. He/she goes to
the milongas for the fun af being there but not to expect dancing too much.
Every lesson should be followed by a little practica.
If nobody wants to dance with you get the hint, go to lessons and practicas
to improve your dancing.
Brush your teeth, change your perfume, wash your hair.
This is my opinion after spending some time at the milongas. I naturally
could be wrong...but I doubt it!
I seldom have the chance to use English so accept my apologies for any
possible mistake.
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 09:49:09 -0700
From: Andrew Allison <andrew@AALLISON.COM>
Subject: rejections
Dan wrote:
>Rejection is a painful thing. You ladies need to understand that a man
>makes an effort asking you to dance and risking rejection and is
>therefore entitled to kind treatment. And there is no 'gracious'
>rejection without lying. How could it be? Tell me 'graciously' that you
>prefer another man? How would you go about it? Perhaps: 'I don't want to
>dance with you but I'll marry you?' ?? This is gracious enough, but a
>bit dangerous, isn't it?
1. It's only a rejection if the man chooses to view it as such.
2. The man is entitled to kind treatment not because of the effort
involved in asking a woman to dance and risking rejection, but because
courtesy demands it.
3.Here are three gracious responses that should cover all the bases:
No thank you. [= please don't ask again]
Not just now, but thank you for asking. [= maybe later]
Please ask me again later [ = I want to dance with you, but not now]
and by the way, if the man is sufficiently uncouth that he doesn't take the
first no for an answer, i.e., repeats the invitation, he loses his right to
courtesy and deserves something along the lines of: "what part of no is
unclear to you."
>So, ladies, please lie to us if you must. And fully expect never to be
>asked again by the man you refused, that's only fair.
How childish!
>If the rejection is not absolute, just concerning the next dance, make
>it clear - but then it's not a rejection, of course. And in that case
>you don't need explaining, just say: 'in an hour', or 'at the next
>milonga'.
Declining an invitation is only a rejection if it doesn't include an
invitation?
>Men - when a lady asks us to dance - never refuse!! Never and under no
>circumstances, if your back hurts to much hurry to the nearest emergency
>ward.
A man, of course, has the same absolute right as a woman to graciously
decline an invitation.
Regards, Andrew
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:04:50 +0000
From: ahshol Kahn <kahn44@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: rejections
Somebody wrote:
" I know when I am dancing with a new follower, and I can see something
she's doing wrong that she is struggling with, I try to be very cafeful and
gentle, and will ask first if she'd like a pointer, and assuming she agrees,
make my suggestion."
How absurd can you be! Your obligation is, if you know how to dance tango,
to lead in such a way that her problem does not have any oportunity to
appear or you compensate for anything she does not follow. If she has any
problem turning to the left then you do not lead any left turns, if she does
not lock her feet in front then you dance walking straight.
*You do not teach at the milongas*. Let's see if you can get it once and for
all!
At the milongas you concentrate in the music and you communicate with your
partner whatever her/his skill may be. *No wander you are into hip-hop
tango. :))
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 20:29:53 -0400
From: Nicole Dowell <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: Re: Rejections
Dan wrote:
"So, ladies, please lie to us if you must. And fully expect never to be asked again by the man you refused, that's only fair."
I wish it WAS that easy Dan. Unfortunately, it normally turns out that the guy that you REALLY don't ever want to dance with will continue to ask you to dance no matter how many times you turn him down! Isn't that the case, ladies? I'm sorry, but there are a few times that there is somebody who just cannot dance and it is uncomfortable to dance with him (or worse yet, he has bad body odor...) and I just don't want to dance with him ever again. Why should I have to continuously refuse him? If he asks me three times in a night to dance, and I turn him down three times, why does he keep asking?!? There are guys like that, who don't know how to take a NO. It's like a bad date.
I will never turn down a TRYING beginner. I don't know anyone in the tango community who will. Everybody is trying to encourage new dancers. We ladies are refusing to dance with the guy who never goes to a class, never attends a practica, never washes hisself, but then wants to try to execute acrobatic feats on the dancefloor (and he's been at the same milongas for 2 years!).
I know when I walk into a milonga in my town, I know most every face. I walk around and greet people. Everyone knows each other. So, if we refuse a dance for any particular reason from the ones we know, we aren't taking it personally. But to be honest, guys and ladies, if you've been going to the same milongas all the time, and you are constantly getting refused, take a look at your own dance habits, not at everyone elses etiquette.
Nicole
Miami
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 14:22:32 -0700
From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Rejections
Why is there so much talk of rejection. Life is full of rejections: Job rejections, rejection by parents, children, spouces, friends, credit card companies, lenders, etc. It would seem that after all that practice at being rejected, one would get used to it and adapt. How is tango so different? Isn't tango a reflection of life?
I have been rejected many times in life. I have done my share of rejection. It's part of life. What's so hard about it???
Warm Regards
Tango Guy
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 00:17:22 EDT
From: Joanne Prochaska <JOANNEPROCHASKA@AOL.COM>
Subject: rejections
Someone once wrote:
"If you learn how to handle rejection, then you will learn how to get
anything you want."
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:56:04 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Rejection
Hector says:
"In my opinion, the dancer who is tired should remove
him/herself from the
perimeter of the dance floor towards the background."
I will give my opinion knowing that others may disagree with me.
Many people go to the milongas to see their friends, to enjoy the music and
ambiance, to look at the dancers. They need to relax and have some wine
before they start dancing, they like dancing to certain orchestras and rest
when others are playing. Some do not feel like dancing that particular day
or at that particular moment. Some are waiting for their favorites partners
to arrive.
They like to sit in the first line close to the perimeter of the dancing
floor. They made reservations to sit there.
There are many dancers, on the other hand, that are sitting in the
background and like to dance right now.
Where you are sitting (IMO) is threfore irrelevant.
I realize that the customs are different in certain communities from the
prevalent ones in Buenos Aires. But...even in smaller cities in Argentina
where one can ask a lady to dance by walking to her table, one respects her
preference. She may accept this time but she will be absent minded showing
lack of interest in dancing with you. You should respect that feeling by not
asking her again.
Body language is always very clear. If she looks, smiles, acknowledges you
when arriving and leaving, stares, etc. ---No doubt she wishes to dance with
you. If she ignores you,---she does not want to dance with you.
I do not understand what is the big deal about this. This is natural,
something to be expected.
There is no room for resentment. There is no need to use strong words such
as "being snubbed".
It is very simple, she chooses not to dance with you,... big deal! . You go
ahead and dance with somebody that wants to dance with you. If nobody wants
to dance with you... sit down and enjoy the music or go hiking but
resentment, here is totally misplaced.
Men should preferably dance with women of their same dancing skills. Women
on the other hand may accept to dance with more skilled leaders as it is
very important to learn by following a good leader.
Summary: Nobody has an obligation to dance with you. Be respectful of other
dancers feelings and preferences. Learn to accept being rejected with grace
and without holding a grudge. Dance with those that enjoy dancing with you.
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:19:33 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Rejection
Aaron says (Re: to declearing war to a woman that rejects you):
"IMO This is pretty normal. Sort of "alpha male" behaviour (or at
least this is
that creates the alpha male).
(consider that this sort of reactions (emotional needs) evolved before
civilised
society)
If you make the rejecting female uncomfortable somehow, it could
- make her leave his "area" and stop causing emotional
distress
by her simple presence
- show other females what waits them if they reject him
- show other males that he is not to be triffled with.
Of course this is not nice, but can be effective: If you are really good at
focusing your punishment to this person, the lady will stop attending the
milonga, the others will actually blame her and the guys will consider you
strong character - no matter how unlikely it sounds. Women rarely tolerate
constant conflicts in a leisure environment.
Now you may start throwing the stones."
--- When I read Aaron's note, I initially thought that he was joking but
later on I re-read it and decided that perhaps he was not. In any case I
made a copy of it, took it to the milonga last night and asked some male
friends (age 22 to 65) for their opinion about it.
They all agreed that this would be a most unusual reaction to a rejection at
the milonga.
An alfa male, due to the charisma and animal magnetism that he possesses,
has always a number of ladies at his disposal to dance or to date.
When rejected, he will accept that, at face value, no means no. To start
thinking that she said no when actually she meant yes, something not
impossible to occur, is the effort of an inferior male to rationalize such
rejection.
A man here knows that the woman lives in her own feminine world that is
mysterious and highly respected by him. She must have her reasons for
rejecting, he accepts that without feeling offended, he does not take it
personally.
He will try to be kind and polite towards her, in the future.
He cannot "punish" or persecute a lady. This would be way below what is
expected from an alfa male or any decent man. To do so would make him loose
face in front of his male and female friends.
Finally if he was perceived as "bothering" a lady he would be asked to leave
the milonga.
Customs are quite different in other places of the world. I pass no judgment
and do not ascertain that some customs are better than others. I am amazed
to see how different things could be.
I wish you all very pleasant and peaceful milongas.
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 13:52:04 +0000
From: Rick Jones <rwjones2001@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Rejection
Frankly, I find this entire discussion kind of weird. It's only a dance.
It's not like getting rejected on a marriagel proposal, or a sexual advance,
or a date, or something like that. You ask someone to dance, and she
doesn't feel like it for whatever reason. Who cares?
I don't know how you folks define alpha males, but I'll tell you, it's not
even remotely part of my definition that an alpha male would carry around a
grudge or whatever if a woman declines a dance. Even if she does it as
gracelessly as humanly possible.
The original screenplay of "Gone With The Wind" allegedly had a line by
Clark Gable/Rhett Butler that went, "The world is full of beds, and beds are
full of women." To those tangueros who get rejected when asking a woman to
dance, I would offer this derivative piece of advice:
"The world is full of milongas, and milongas are full of women who will
dance with you."
Get over it and go ask someone else to dance.
Best wishes,
Rick Jones
Washington DC
Aaron says (Re: to declearing war to a woman that rejects you):
"IMO This is pretty normal. Sort of "alpha male" behaviour (or at
least this is
that creates the alpha male).
(consider that this sort of reactions (emotional needs) evolved before
civilised
society)
If you make the rejecting female uncomfortable somehow, it could
- make her leave his "area" and stop causing emotional
distress
by her simple presence
- show other females what waits them if they reject him
- show other males that he is not to be triffled with.
Of course this is not nice, but can be effective: If you are really good at
focusing your punishment to this person, the lady will stop attending the
milonga, the others will actually blame her and the guys will consider you
strong character - no matter how unlikely it sounds. Women rarely tolerate
constant conflicts in a leisure environment.
Now you may start throwing the stones."
--- When I read Aaron's note, I initially thought that he was joking but
later on I re-read it and decided that perhaps he was not. In any case I
made a copy of it, took it to the milonga last night and asked some male
friends (age 22 to 65) for their opinion about it.
They all agreed that this would be a most unusual reaction to a rejection at
the milonga.
An alfa male, due to the charisma and animal magnetism that he possesses,
has always a number of ladies at his disposal to dance or to date.
When rejected, he will accept that, at face value, no means no. To start
thinking that she said no when actually she meant yes, something not
impossible to occur, is the effort of an inferior male to rationalize such
rejection.
A man here knows that the woman lives in her own feminine world that is
mysterious and highly respected by him. She must have her reasons for
rejecting, he accepts that without feeling offended, he does not take it
personally.
He will try to be kind and polite towards her, in the future.
He cannot "punish" or persecute a lady. This would be way below what is
expected from an alfa male or any decent man. To do so would make him loose
face in front of his male and female friends.
Finally if he was perceived as "bothering" a lady he would be asked to leave
the milonga.
Customs are quite different in other places of the world. I pass no judgment
and do not ascertain that some customs are better than others. I am amazed
to see how different things could be.
I wish you all very pleasant and peaceful milongas.
Premium!
Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:42:44 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: Rejection
> --- When I read Aaron's note, I initially thought that he
> was joking but later on I re-read it and decided that
> perhaps he was not. In any case I made a copy of it, took it
> to the milonga last night and asked some male friends (age
> 22 to 65) for their opinion about it.
>
> They all agreed that this would be a most unusual reaction
> to a rejection at the milonga.
At a milonga. It should be. Though it is a basic human instinct, it is definitely not the appropriate behaviour "civilized" society expects. =
Those males who don't concieve these rejections as threats will not act accordingly. The element of feeling threatened is key. Also, threat is =
interpreted differently based on social status, skills, previous experience, mental abilities ("intelligence"), strength of self-control =
etc.
To cut this debate short and stop writing a full essay on evolutionary psychology: just think WHY the cabeceo has evolved... Those guys =
(etnographic and social background well known to everyone I presume) could not take a no OPENLY. Those guys considered an open rejection as =
tragedy. (actually, as some texts say: it truly had pretty devastating effects on his reputation)
> An alfa male, due to the charisma and animal magnetism that
> he possesses, has always a number of ladies at his disposal
> to dance or to date.
Yes. But if any male who feels truly threatened by a rejection will seek a way to repel the threat.
> When rejected, he will accept that, at face value, no means
> no. To start thinking that she said no when actually she
> meant yes, something not impossible to occur, is the effort
> of an inferior male to rationalize such rejection.
Yes you are right: a TRUE alpha male (I mean: the one who would really be the Man in the group) does that. However, I wasn't talking about =
alpha males in an objective sense (being an "alpha" is a subjective thing: see later). The males in question DON'T have to be actually the =
best guys on the block. Every single human male has the motivation to become the best. What I called "alpha male behaviour" was that normally =
every male aspires to be the "alpha". This will trigger certain emotions in case someone or something threatens the male's achieved position in =
the community.
There is no strict definition of the alpha male (with homo sapiens). Is it the guy who dominates it's peers and the females in it's community =
(says who?)? Is it the one who gets laid the most times (can you tell?)? Is it the one who is CONSIDERED to be the best male in town (by the =
community, which is the sum of subjective impressions)? Is it the one with the most power to control it's environment (Are there to witness? =
Do you believe him if he says so?)?
The entire hierarchy of human society and
> A man here knows that the woman lives in her own feminine
> world that is mysterious and highly respected by him. She
> must have her reasons for rejecting, he accepts that without
> feeling offended, he does not take it personally.
Sure. He is a gentleman. Being fair is very civilised, but an alpha is the winner of a competition. To compete means that there must be losers. =
If she is in the way, well, bad for her... Just think why politicians and feminist talk about "gender mainstreaming" and "gender equality". =
Man are more competitive (it IS genetic). If the women appears to be hindering them, they may consider her a competitor.
> He cannot "punish" or persecute a lady. This would be way
> below what is expected from an alfa male or any decent man.
> To do so would make him loose face in front of his male and
> female friends.
This would be logical, isn't it?
However, it is usually not the case. If the male in question does not use direct force and open agression, but "covert" aggression only: =
negative attitude, nagging, cynism, gossip etc. (which only appear to be feminine traits, however it was male society that made women use covert =
warfare thus "feminizing" these methods) against the lady (preferably face-to-face or in a small group), she will grow frustrated. She =
probably tries to pour this frustration on the male, who may use this to hurt her more (legitimately, it is "self-defence" to a spectator) and =
this usually leads to a downward spiral. He only has to keep his calmness (which suggests innocence). She will probably get frustrated =
enough (which suggests guilt) to say harsh things about the male in public(most of the community doesn't know HOW nasty were he with her!) , =
which slowly undermines her moral basis (as the community will not see her point well founded). And there you go... She will be more or less =
"excommunicated" or made irrelevant (in a political sense) soon.
> Finally if he was perceived as "bothering" a lady he would
> be asked to leave the milonga.
:) I wonder how you could achieve that? You would soon see that such an action would split the community and there would be "waring" =
fractions... (I AM talking from experience)
> Customs are quite different in other places of the world. I
I think customs may be different, but people aren't that much. However, their motives, their attachment to a milonga or tango itself may differ =
greatly. Just to remind you again: this whole behaviour is based on (subjective sense of) threat. If this event is not sufficiently crucial =
to the person, this type of behaviour will not emerge.
> pass no judgment and do not ascertain that some customs are
> better than others. I am amazed to see how different things could be.
Don't think that such events happen all the time and everywhere. I've seen such a behaviour only a few times in many different dancing =
communities (in several countries in Europe) and not just over one dance. Also, I read an awful lot about psychology.
I don't think that any community or nation is exception though.
Usually, the smaller the community, the higher the probability that you get to know that someone were acting like this. In large communities =
such events simply remain below the "noise level".
Cheers,
Aron
