2068 Tango/milonga/waltz
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:30:37 EST
From: Crrtango@AOL.COM
Subject: Tango/milonga/waltz
Keith @totango wrote:
"The time signature of tango is 4/4 (4 beats per bar or measure). Milonga is
2/4. Vals is 3/4 or 6/8."
In a strictly musical sense but even this is deceptive. Early tangos were in
2/4 time also so the tempo of either could be at times identical. Gradually
the time changed to 4/4, as in Di Sarli's tangos. Milonga appears to predate
tango not only as a word but could even be the first dance form more or less of
tango. Early tangos and milongas were often indistinguishable from each other.
Sheet music of the period and later often labeled songs like "El Portenito,"
as a tango/milonga but it depends on which version you hear - D'Agostino's
(tango/)milonga version or Orquesta Tipica or Juan D'Arienzo's tango versions. The
two evolved apart and the milonga rhythm, also influenced by African and
folklore elements, like candombe and chacarera, became more distinct. Tango
eventually evolved into 4/4 time rhythm and gradually lost any vestiges of the
milonga rhythm. This is why some early tangos or milongas like Firpo's (who
conserved the old sound even in his recordings of the fifties so we can still get an
idea of it) sound often very similar.
Waltz is 3/4 time but unlike what Rick said it is not strictly danced on the
one beat. The step can be on the second or the third, whatever as long as you
are consistent. Anyone who has taken a waltz workshop with Pablo Veron will be
familiar with this concept. He will teach a figure then dance it starting on
the second beat or third beat. It is often very enlightening to dance it that
way. A person's sense of rhythm or choice of emphasis can almost be a separate
issue from dance technique and not something that has rigid rules. One person
can dance with a different emphasis than another person.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:32:23 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango/milonga/waltz
Charles wrote:
>>>
Early tangos and milongas were often indistinguishable from each other.
Sheet music of the period and later often labeled songs like "El Portenito,"
as a tango/milonga but it depends on which version you hear - D'Agostino's
(tango/)milonga version or Orquesta Tipica or Juan D'Arienzo's tango
versions.
<<<
Charles' comment motivated me to produce the following list, culled from
some of the sheet music I have. The following designations are used to
describe the "tango sub-genre", printed right below the song title in
smaller type:
"Tango" (various),
"Tango Criollo" (El Cachafaz, Yunta Brava),
"Tango Argentino" (A Media Luz),
"Tango Sentimental" (Comme il Faut),
"Gran Tango" (Inspiracion),
"Gran Tango Milonga" (El Amanacer).
"Gran Milonga Tangueada" (La Punalada),
"Milonga" (various),
"Milonga Federal" (La Mulateada),
"Milonga Campera" (Milonga Triste),
=========
"Vals" (various),
"Vals Criollo", (Flor de Lino, Noche de Estrellas),
My sense as a dancer suggests that "Vals" seems to be its own thing,
rhythmically, while "tango" and "milonga" appear to be on a continuum with
much more blurred distinctions. This is supported by my notes from various
musicality workshops with Pablo Aslan (www.avantango.com), Color Tango
(www.colortango.com.ar), and Dan Diaz (www.rioplata.org).
Dan Diaz has a version of "El Choclo" on his "Live at Stanford" CD that
starts as a tango and transitions into a familiar-feeling danceable milonga.
In concert, he plays an "El Choclo" arrangement that "evolves" in one song
through the gaucho/payadores 3-3-2 rhythm, the habanera-influenced milonga
campera, the canyengue-style tango milonga, tango, and fast-tempo milonga.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:41:18 EST
From: Crrtango@AOL.COM
Subject: tango/milonga
Tom Stermitz wrote:
"It is my understanding that milonga (as we know it) did NOT predate
tango. Rather that the music of the 1910s & 1920s had a generalized
tango/milonga feeling. As tangos slowed down in the 1930s with the
"de Caro sensibility", milongas sped up. Certain orchestras added a
more African or Candombe beat to the milonga. I don't hear much
condombe in the earlier, tango/milonga music."
This is not true. There are already references to milonga as early as the
mid-to-late 1800s. Ventura Lynch, a contemporary student of dances and folklore
of Buenos Aires Provinces published a book in 1883 (La Provincia de Buenos
Aires Hasta la Definicion de la Cuestion Capital de la Republica. Buenos Aires,
1883, 2nd Ed. 1925) in which she notes "the milonga is danced only by the
compraditos of the city, who have created it as a mockery of the dances the blacks
hold in their own places."
Milonga has always had more or less candombe influence in it but it did not
just develop later, it was always there but became more noticeable as it
evolved with specific tempos and rhythms like those heard by Biagi or late Canaro.
The differences were there but not as clear defined as later ones. Candombe
existed as a separate dance long before tango and milonga but it too evolved as
it became incorporated into the milonga over the years. Lucio DeMare's milonga
"Carnavalito" is actually a combination of folklore and the african candombe
played in a sort of two-rhythm counterpoint.
There may be some dispute over which word came first but it is generally
accepted that milonga preceded tango as a dance form and greatly influenced it in
the early stages.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:13:40 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: tango/milonga
Sorry to quote the whole thing, but it probably helps.
I believe my reference about the history of milonga is Pablo Aslan,
who said that the 1800s word "milonga" actually referred to another
dance. I could be wrong...
The milonga "as we know it" is from the 1930s. From the twenties (and
even into the thirties) you hear pieces that are not clearly one or
the other. Candombe rhythms were put into the milonga by various
"nostalgic" arrangers, which we can easily hear in Milonga Brava done
by Canaro in the 1930s, or Azabache done by Calo in the 1940s.
Carnavalito is a bit later than the period we're talking about,
right? Some feel it is inappropriate to play it in a milonga, but I
don't really agree with that, as it is a great song.
I'm not expert in the early tangos (or tango/milongas), but to my
ears, I don't hear much that I would describe as condombe in them.
In any case, CANDOMBLE is a Brazilian-african tradition, and the
CANDOMBE is a strong folk tradition in Uruguay, and presumably dates
back to African rhythms and dances of the 1800s. I would assume that
early forms of Candombe took place on both sides of the river. I
would NOT assume that Candombe was part of the tango development
(except in an oblique way) until it became obvious in those milongas
candombera in the 1930s.
The presence of Candombe in the early tangos would depend on how much
that particular expression of African culture rubbed up against the
cultures of sailor, gaucho and European immigrant.
There are many more rhythms to worry about as well: Malambo,
Chacarera, Ranchera, Habanera, etc. Which ones made it to tango, and
how much influence from each is a bigger topic.
>Tom Stermitz wrote:
>
>"It is my understanding that milonga (as we know it) did NOT predate
>tango. Rather that the music of the 1910s & 1920s had a generalized
>tango/milonga feeling. As tangos slowed down in the 1930s with the
>"de Caro sensibility", milongas sped up. Certain orchestras added a
>more African or Candombe beat to the milonga. I don't hear much
>condombe in the earlier, tango/milonga music."
>
>This is not true. There are already references to milonga as early as the
>mid-to-late 1800s. Ventura Lynch, a contemporary student of dances
>and folklore
>of Buenos Aires Provinces published a book in 1883 (La Provincia de Buenos
>Aires Hasta la Definicion de la Cuestion Capital de la Republica.
>Buenos Aires,
>1883, 2nd Ed. 1925) in which she notes "the milonga is danced only by the
>compraditos of the city, who have created it as a mockery of the
>dances the blacks
>hold in their own places."
>
>Milonga has always had more or less candombe influence in it but it did not
>just develop later, it was always there but became more noticeable as it
>evolved with specific tempos and rhythms like those heard by Biagi
>or late Canaro.
>The differences were there but not as clear defined as later ones. Candombe
>existed as a separate dance long before tango and milonga but it too
>evolved as
>it became incorporated into the milonga over the years. Lucio DeMare's milonga
>"Carnavalito" is actually a combination of folklore and the african candombe
>played in a sort of two-rhythm counterpoint.
>
>There may be some dispute over which word came first but it is generally
>accepted that milonga preceded tango as a dance form and greatly
>influenced it in
>the early stages.
>
>Cheers,
>Charles
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:19:08 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: tango/milonga
It is my understanding that the early milonga was absorbed into tango, and
that milonga disappeared as a dance. According to this account, the
current milonga was created during the golden era by taking a subset of
tango steps and using them to dance to the new milonga music. I working
from recollection here, not having the proper reference material at hand.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:02:19 -0800
From: Kos Zahariev <Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Tango/milonga/waltz
Here's my two cents, in the context of tango/milonga/vals.
A tango is a tango and a milonga is a milonga regardless of whether you dance
it or just listen to it. I think trying to marry the definition of what
composition is a tango/milonga with the way to dance it could a bit
misleading.
The number of beats per measure, as glanced from the notes, 2/4 versus 4/4,
for tango, could also be misleading to use. Here we have the same music
played by e.g. D'Arienzo and by Di Sarli. The musical phrases are locked by
the way the piece was composed. 2/4 or 4/4 does not really tell you much since
it could take 2 2/4 measures for D'Arienzo to play the same stream of music
for Di Sarli's 1 4/4 measure. Or, to have the same number of measures, you can
think of D'Arienzo's version as scored in 4/8 so we have four counts/beats for
each measure in both pieces. Does it matter how you write it down - it's just
a notation.
I think it matters more how it sounds. Keep in mind I am only talking about
tango/vals/milonga here. In formal musical theory writing something as 2/4 or
4/8 or 4/4 would probably have formal implications.
To my ear there are four major categories - two of tango, one of vals, one of
milonga. There are patterns in beat accents/stresses and characteristic ranges
tempo. I am aware that there could be different weights for the accented beats
in a measure, but for the purposes of this discussion this is not relevant.
For the same piece of music, early tangos, and interpreters like D'Arienzo
tend to have all four beats accented where Di Sarli/Pugliese will only accent
1 and 3. All of this on the down-beat. So tango has as a (accented) beat
pattern two major types. Lets think of 4 fourths per measure, which means we
also have 8 eights. The dots below are eights; two dots make up one fourth.
---TANGO---
Earlier tango/D'Arienzo beat:
1. 2. 3. 4. (numbers are where the beat accent occurs).
Di Sarli/Pugliese and others:
1. .. 3. ..
I've done a lot of bpm counting (beats per minute) for tango music. In the
above two types of beat patterns, I count as a beat (towards the beat per
minute count) the 1 and 3. It just makes sense if you play it. Also, dancers
usually step on the 1 and 3 in both cases above.
Additionally, 1.2.3.4 tends to be played faster than 1...3... Di Sarli clocks
so many tangos right at 60 bpm. So does Pugliese. D'Arienzo and many early
tangos clock at 66-68 bpm. However, notice how we tend to throw in a traspie
(the quick-quick steps) in D'Arienzo tangos more, despite that it also is
played faster. Isn't that strange - it is harder to do it to a faster tango
and yet this is where it fits. Well I think this is because of the beat
pattern - accents on all 4 beats. It just drives you to do steps from time to
time that fall on the 2 or 4 of D'Arienzo.
---MILONGA--
I posted examples of compositions played both as a tango and as a
milonga. Partly justified by these, here is my recipe to how a milonga could
be made from the early tangos (or vice versa):
Take 1.2.3.4. beat pattern of early/D'Arienzo tangos.
Move the second accented beat to fall on the up-beat (instead of the down-beat
as it did before), i.e.
1. .2 3. 4. instead of
1. 2. 3. 4. from D'Arienzo tango
Speed it up a bit (or a lot) - a bit to 82 bpm (only 1 and 3 count for the bpm
- play it and you will see why) as in a slow Canaro milonga, or to 96 bpm as
in El Portenito by D'Agostino, or a lot more to 110 and up to 120 bpm.
This is not the only beat pattern possible for a milonga and it is not for the
candombe milongas for example or to milongas that are still 1.2.3.4 but
sped-up and can feel like milongas if sped-up enough, but it is the most
easily recognizable milonga pattern, I think.
Rick McGarrey wrote that to him milonga is not faster than tango. Well it
is. It is a different beat pattern but also typically faster than typical
tango.
Keith just wrote an amazing post about milonga and his love for it. I share so
much as an experience of what he has written about milongas and am also in the
phase of enjoying (and playing as a DJ) mostly slow milongas. I also play a
tanda of milongas every hour. Just to add to his post:
Milonga, despite seemingly having an (undeserved) reputation of
being a "stomping"/running dance without much creativity allowed (this seems
to come not from the melody, which is as varied as in tango, but from the
driving rhythm), is, tempo-wise, the most-diverse dance of the three. Milongas
range from about 74 bpm (there are faster tangos!) to in excess of 120
bpm. Tangos range from about 55 bpm to about 76 bpm. And thus we come to
---VALS---
Because of its 3 counts per measure signature, vals is in a totally different
universe. In tango vals, there is only one accented beat (the first one) per
measure.
1. .. ..
Only the accented beat counts towards the bpm. Have a listen and you will
see this is natural.
In addition to a totally different beat pattern (or even time signature)
valses tend to be faster in bpm than tango but there are also a lot of slower
valses - Canaro for example. De Angelis just loves 69 bpm. D'Arienzo's fast
valses could be 68-75 bpm. Canaro's fast valses are up there in low 70s
too. Canaro's slow valses are in the 50s. That popular El bandoneon disk "La
Melodia de Nuestro Adios" has a few of them, e.g. Las Margaritas - 52
bpm. Note that tango vals squeezes 3 beats into 2 beats for tango but a 69 bpm
vals would not be danced faster than a 69 bpm D'Arienzo tango if you only step
on the 1 3 of D'Arienzo and the 1 of a vals. However it may feel faster
because of hearing the 3 beats and the way the composition uses that as well.
Dancers tend to throw in traspie in valses - either on the 2 beat or on the 3
beat but generally not both in the same measure. So even traspie does not feel
faster than D'Arienzo tango with traspie. I guess traspie is more frequently
done in slower valses since you have so much time at 52-54 bpm to throw in
extra steps. As a side note, I wish all instructors would play slow valses in
a vals class - try carefully practicing your new vals step with traspie to
D'Arienzo's "Amor y Celos" - a pain for some of us who in class have trouble
trying to dance out of sync with the music in order to slow the step down!
Valses have quite a range too - from 40 bpm to 78 bpm or so.
El Búlgaro
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:08:58 +0000
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: tango/milonga
Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> writes:
> It is my understanding that the early milonga was absorbed into
> tango, and that milonga disappeared as a dance. According to this
> account, the current milonga was created during the golden era by
> taking a subset of tango steps and using them to dance to the new
> milonga music. I working from recollection here, not having the
> proper reference material at hand.
Christine Denniston has written a little about milonga:
<https://www.totaltango.com/acatalog/tango_milonga_vals_92.html>.
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:40:00 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango/milonga
I've been enjoying the recent thread on this topic a
great deal. In fact, I don't remember when I enjoyed
reading about "shop talk" so much, even though a lot
of it is over my head. Thank you, gentlemen, for
elevating the frequently banal nature of discussions
on this List a few notches, which was sorely needed.
Luda
=====
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:55:06 -0800
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango/milonga/waltz
Charles wrote:
"Waltz is 3/4 time but unlike what Rick said it is not strictly danced on
the
one beat. The step can be on the second or the third, whatever as long as
you
are consistent. Anyone who has taken a waltz workshop with Pablo Veron will
be
familiar with this concept. He will teach a figure then dance it starting on
the second beat or third beat. It is often very enlightening to dance it
that
way. A person's sense of rhythm or choice of emphasis can almost be a
separate
issue from dance technique and not something that has rigid rules. One
person
can dance with a different emphasis than another person."
Is it a Waltz workshop or a VALS workshop with Pablo Veron? Is the term
waltz used in Argentine circles for dances done at milongas?
3/4 time does not mean 3 beats per measure. It means 3 quarters per
measure -- or notes of equivalent value in each measure. For example, a
dotted half-note could appear in a measure since it has the same value as 3
quarter notes.
There are not 3 beats in VALS. Try tapping your foot 190 times per minute
for a full VALS tune. It is not fun. Those are tiny pulses, not beats. My
contention is that understanding this will improve one's dancing as well as
musical performance. If you think of them as beats, then your dancing and
performance may tend to be clunky (disjointed) -- not smooth. If you think
of them as pulses you can dance on the beat and slip in a light step on
pulse 2 or 3 occasionally.
If you start a figure on pulse 2 and hold it into three, that would be a
good example of syncopation -- because you are failing to step on the
beat -- slightly off the beat. Same thing if you stepped on pulse 3 and held
it into pulse 1, but here you are coming in slightly ahead of the beat. If
you just step on pulse 3 and move directly into pulse 1 of the next beat ,
that's just a "pick up" not a syncopation.
Quiz: Could VALS be notated in 2/4 time? Yes, it could. Can you think how?
Why would that sometimes be a good idea?
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 05:59:59 -0800
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango/milonga/waltz
--- Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM> wrote:
"If you start a figure on pulse 2 and hold it into
three, that would be a
good example of syncopation -- because you are failing
to step on the
beat -- slightly off the beat. Same thing if you
stepped on pulse 3 and held
it into pulse 1, but here you are coming in slightly
ahead of the beat. If
you just step on pulse 3 and move directly into pulse
1 of the next beat ,
that's just a "pick up" not a syncopation.
Quiz: Could VALS be notated in 2/4 time? Yes, it
could. Can you think how?
Why would that sometimes be a good idea?"
This is nothing new, or specific to Tango. In the
world of Baroque music, I found the following
discussion.
"These rhythmical features or counter-rhythms in much
Baroque music give the music a kind of dynamic,
energetic flavour. It is as if, instead of being
content with lazily trudging on in always the same
dull rhythm, the musicians have too much energy which
they cannot refrain from letting burst out on regular
intervals by throwing in a rhythmical somersault,
after each of which they simply fall back with a
straight face into the old rhythm as if nothing
strange had happened.
Note that despite these rhythmical tricks, the beats
themselves always keep having the same length
(duration) and rate. The basic clock-tick or
heart-beat of the music simply keeps on going evenly.
It is only the grouping of the beats into groups of
two/three/four beats where each 1st beat of such a
group gets the strong accent, that is changed in the
course of the music. Alternatively expressed, the
places where some of the accents fall are changed from
their normal positions where we would have expected
them regarding the periodicity suggested by the
barlines in the printed music."
by Menno Rubingh (c) 2000
https://www.rubinghscience.org/music/baroquerhythm1.html
We humans like to put variety into most things that we
do.
=====
Larry Gmucs 216 433-8644
ASE Chief Engineer Pager: 216 529-2291
NASA Glenn Research Center Fax: 216 433-5020
Cleveland, Ohio 44135
