1310 White Flags (Denver)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 00:09:41 -0600
From: Lynne Butler <lynneoaks@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: White Flags (Denver)
Wonderful job Tom, et. al!!!!
My thanks to the entire Denver community and all those DJs and performers
who made it so vibrant and magical. I had an amazing time. Julio and
Corina, heart-stopping. Tango Mujer, aaahhhhhh!.
There is one kind of funky thing, though, that my friend and I talked about
on our way home and I d love to hear how others on the list feel about it.
Your suggestions, etc.
It s this question: Is it possible to make a non-threatening,
non-dance-asking, friendly gesture toward a sort-of stranger of the opposite
sex at a milonga? Just a friendly "hello" -- without fearing you ll be
perceived as a heat-seeking missle to be avoided at all costs using
elaborate eye-manipulations or a fast break for the water?
I imagine the dilemma (if there is one) stems a little from our borrowed Bs
As tradition of using eye contact to secure dances (which I know has been
discussed on this list before). And yeah, it works great for asking and
avoiding dances -- but does anyone else feel that it has a twilight zone
result too? There were times I kind of wished I had a little white flag so
I could walk up to someone, even a more advanced dancer than myself, waving
it, and feel free to say, for example, I ve read your comments on Tango-L
and you make a lot of sense or Thanks for being a great DJ, your playlist
is wonderful or "We met a year ago in Chile," or I think you know my
dear friend Jane in Portland, how s she doing, and would you give her a hug
for me?"
A few of my awkward attempts at such brief conversations like this weekend
resulted in really pleasant exchanges. (It always seemed okay to express
appreciation to theTango Mujer women, for example, but maybe that was okay
because there was no fear I was asking for a dance) -- But very often,
when it was a man I didn't know, it felt uncomfortable, if not chilly, --
like I d somehow forgotten to read the rules for meeting the Queen. I m
kidding on that --though not entirely.
Of course, I know milongas are for dancing, not chatting and perhaps any
approach from someone you don't know is suspicious -- because this approach
is also often how the dance transaction is made. But is there a way to
make these big weekends, which bring together strangers, who are not really
strangers, (because of things like Tango-L where we get "familiar" with each
other even if we've never met)-- Is there a way to make them more natural
social situations. Classes seem more relaxed, and parties help, but even
there attempts at casual converation seems to be met with some wariness. Is
it utterly impossible at milongas themselves? Maybe so. (By the way, I
don t want to suggest this is a problem limited to women approaching men, I
imagine many men may experience this as well).
And I want to re-emphasize that the weekend was wonderful and everyone
should come to Denver if you can! I'd just love to know what others think
on this topic.
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:56:19 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: White Flags (Denver)
Friends,
Lynne asks:
> Is there a way to make them (milongas) more natural
> social situations?
I would love to have joined you all in Denver but lately it has been
necessary to put work ahead of play. In addition to working at home, that
has meant very few classes, no practicas, and only occasional milongas. And
in fact, it has changed my perspective of the whole scene. I used to take
care to dance with every follower and I kept a mental record of whom I
missed so that I could be sure I didn't miss them next time. I used to
dance to every piece of music. I used to sponsor workshops and sweat the
details within our local scene. Not now.
The 'pecking order' in tango culture motivates people to become better
dancers, and in that respect it is good. That assumes, of course, that
people have good direction and the opportunity to learn what truly IS good.
However, the motivation to be accepted by the best dancers can also spoil
many lovely moments both on and off the floor because it comes with
insecurity. I've seen enough 'look at me' dancing with cookie-cutter moves
- it can happen in a close embrace just as much as open. And as has been
noted here previously, how often do 'look at me' dancers fit their dance to
the music? Moreover, do they look like they are enjoying the company of
their partner?
Milongas are for 'tango moments'. For that, dancers need to be dancing.
BUT, for tango moments to happen we need to carry the right feelings onto
the floor, and being worried about every detail won't help, believe me. If
the music and the feelings are right, anything other than the fundamentals
of lead and follow loses it's importance. So, on Lynne's behalf I'm
suggesting that relaxing a little is good - not only for your social life
but also for your enjoyment of tango.
Cheers,
Frank - Mpls.
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:08:14 -0600
From: Russell E Bauer <russell_bauer@LYCOS.COM>
Subject: Re: White Flags (Denver)
Lynne Butler wrote:
>Is it possible to make a non-threatening,
>non-dance-asking, friendly gesture toward a sort-of stranger of the opposite
>sex at a milonga? Just a friendly "hello" -- without fearing you ll be
>perceived as a heat-seeking missle to be avoided at all costs using
>elaborate eye-manipulations or a fast break for the water?
>I imagine the dilemma (if there is one) stems a little from our borrowed Bs
>As tradition of using eye contact to secure dances (which I know has been
>discussed on this list before). And yeah, it works great for asking and
>avoiding dances -- but does anyone else feel that it has a twilight zone
>result too?
Hello List,
Yes, I think so. The reason I think is the borrowed BsAs tradition of using eye contact. I think we would be better off not talking about that.
The fact is we do communicate non-verbally in North America. But a lot of it is done subconsciously. When we then talk about the eye contact the way it's done in BsAs, then it becomes conscious and our attempt becomes a bit unnatural and awkward.
I dance other dances besides tango. I also dance salsa and west coast swing. I know many of you do also. Next time you go out dancing salsa or WCS or whatever, think about this. Even if you approach someone of the opposite sex, who you don't know very well and who doesn't tango and has never heard of the eye contact thing they do in BsAs, to ask for a dance verbally, don't you usually already have a pretty good idea whether he/she will accept or not? I think many times you're perhaps are not couscous of this, but you have communicated non-verbally.
Moreover, when I'm out dancing salsa, I can make eye contact and approach a woman and chat even if she doesn't want to dance with me. Not always though.
But, I think we in tango in North America when we do get together at a big event like we had here in Denver this past weekend, we are consciously thinking about the eye contact thing they do in BsAs. We think "if I make contact with him/her, then that means I want to dance with him/her". "But, I want to just sit out this time so I have to avoid eye contact". Then as Lynne pointed out it comes off as being a bit chilly.
So, I think we'd be better off relaxing a bit and dropping the talk about the eye contact thing and let our own natural ways of communicating (verbally and non-verbally) come through.
Russell Bauer
"Raul"
Denver, CO
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Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 12:27:09 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: White Flags (Denver)
I dance others styles of dancing too. Typically I watch other men (& i'm sure the vice/versa is true as well) & who they ask to dance. I generally feel fine about approaching a stranger if I've seen them dancing with the other leads. Sometimes I'm the first & if I get shot down, no worries. I always feel pretty good about making the overture, no matter what the outcome. When I did have a problem w.r.t. feeling rejected or whatever, I consciously gave my self a little assignment everytime I went dancing. I found enough courage to ask 3 women I didn't know to dance & felt whatever I felt. Eventually my comfort zone enlarge to where no energy or whatever was associated with the whole thing & it became automatic, if that makes sense. Reminds of what Garrison Keilor said about learning to become a comedian/storyteller/??? He said he found a small venue, where he could go & utterly bomb every week, till he found his footing & figured out what he was doing. Kinda like Toastmasters sort of. That kind of acceptance
or opportunity is invaluable...
Rick
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:25:59 -0500
From: Karen Whitesell <kglass@MNTVERNON.NET>
Subject: Re: White flags
Dear friends,
Lynn states, "But is there a way to make these big weekends, which bring
together strangers, who are not reallystrangers, (because of things like
Tango-L where we get "familiar" with each
other even if we've never met)-- Is there a way to make them more natural
social situations..."
I am not good at the eye contact thing because no one ever looks at me, or,
I forget that they might be asking if they do look at me. I have to resort
to the old fashioned waving the flag technique Lynn speaks of: Let me talk
to you, then maybe you will ask me technique.
Knowing someone when we get there would help. When I travel to dance, my
biggest disappointment is not meeting people on Tango-L. I'm thinking, "How
many of these people do I already know? How many already know me?" It is so
hard to come into a milonga or workshops by yourself, if only they had on
Tango-L badges or white flags or something. Maybe put a star on your
nametag. That alone will cause conversation.
Many of you are celebrities in the written world of tango. Most are just
listeners. We want to meet you. Organizers, introduce them. Have us a
party. I may have to win the lottery, but I would like to have a tango-L
party someday.
Another way to break the social ice barrier ahead of time is to provide
local housing. This gives your guests a real sense of belonging and a one
up on introductions. You already know someone when you get to the milonga,
then you'll know their friends, and the snowball of friendships grows.
I do believe this is why Denver's Labor Day has been so successful. When
those local people invited you in, it made the trip even more wonderful.
Please encourage your community to take in dancers. It's not the money we
save, its the riches we receive from the hearts of out hosts.
Another way to know people before you get there is to write on this forum
and ask for connections, information, etc. This happened in NYC when I
wrote and told them I was coming, I had people to meet and dances to dance.
It was wonderful.
Now here's my white flag: I will be at Sean and Trini's Pittsburg, PA,
workshop with Susana Miller, June 5-9. Please write me, find me, introduce
yourself, and I'll do the same. Hope we will get to dance, for, after all,
that is the agenda.
Happy tangos to all,
Karen, of Mt Vernon Missouri
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 19:12:23 EDT
From: Carole Ekker <HeyCook@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: White Flags
Lynne has got it right. I, too, experienced a couple of really uncomfortable
moments in Denver, and frankly I was surprised since the event overall has
such a wonderful community-building feel to it. Sadly, though, I hear about
this kind of behavior all too often.
In the end, what's twelve or fifteen minutes of your life? If you dance with
a man or woman you don't know and they're awful, so be it. It's good
practice for you as a leader or follower to make that dance (and that dancer) better
through your own skill. On the other hand, if the man or woman is wonderful,
what a gift!
This is not a competition in which we "keep up" with each other, after all.
Tango is a collaborative venture (isn't that what those Tango orgasms are all
about?), and it is our mutual pleasure and enjoyment of the music, the moment
and each other that make it so special. Everyone, even the clumsiest or most
inexperienced dancer, does at least one thing well.
I know that none of this is news to any of you, and all of it is more than
obvious. Just like those beginning classes we go back to, though, every once in
a while you have to state the obvious for the sake of regrouping and
remembering.
I love the Denver event and go twice a year. I always enjoy the classes,
have many friends with whom I can gather, make new ones, and share those special
moments. Sometimes they're a gift, and sometimes they're not, but they are
all important, every one.
Thank you Tom, the Denver community, and all the dancers from around the
country who came and made my experience so wonderful. I can't wait to come back.
Carole Ekker
Washington, DC
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:13:49 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: White Flags (Denver)
I almost always go on the assumption, that first & foremost, people are there to dance. Anyone I'm talking to is fair game to ditch me & go dance with someone. Um, If I'm doing the asking, there are a couple exceptions: if the gal I want to dance with is obviously really engaged in a conversation, I probably wouldn't butt in. If they make the sign of the cross/vampire-avoider thing with their fingers, I'll run the other way. Another one of my pet peeves, is when a guy sits there & blabs away to a gal they don't know, after they are finished dancing, applying the full court pressure, for god knows what reasons. Perhaps there is something to this eye thing?
Rick
PS: There's a world hidden in songs & poetry, or so I'm finding out! No sense fighting a few million years of evolution, stupid life force ;o)
Who can say
Where the road goes,
Where the day flows?
Only time
And who can say if your love grows
As your heart chose?
Only time
Who can say why your heart sighs
As your love flies?
Only time
And who can say
Why your heart cries when your love lies?
Only time
Who can say
When the roads meet
That love might be
In your heart?
And who can say
When the day sleeps
If the night keeps
All your heart?
Night keeps all your heart
Who can say if your love grows
As your heart chose?
Only time
And who can say where the road goes,
Where the day flows?
Only time
Who knows? Only time
Who knows? Only time
enya- only time
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:24:38 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: White Flags (Denver)
Rick FromPortland wrote:
>>>
If I'm doing the asking, there are a couple exceptions: if the gal I want to
dance with is obviously really engaged in a conversation, I probably
wouldn't butt in...Another one of my pet peeves, is when a guy sits there &
blabs away to a gal they don't know, after they are finished dancing,
applying the full court pressure, for god knows what reasons. Perhaps there
is something to this eye thing?
<<<
When a woman I'd like to dance with is engaged in conversation, I position
myself behind and slightly to one side of her conversation partner and start
staring. If the conversation is paramount to her at that time, she won't
notice me and I'll head for greener pastures. Otherwise, this positioning
allows her to make eye contact with me with minimal social embarassment to
her conversation partner, from whom she can then gracefully excuse herself.
This also works well with your pet peeve - or one of its variants. Besides
the case you describe, I know many women who greatly resent being solicited
"only for conversation" by a male dancer who might otherwise (or in
addition) ask them to dance. After a monopolizing "conversational pause"
with one woman, which might lead her to suspect she's about to be asked to
dance, the male dancer then leaves, asking someone ELSE to dance instead of
the woman whose ear he has been bending.
I can understand why women resent this. To talk to a woman with "full-court
pressure" takes her out of "circulation," and costs her opportunities to be
asked by other men for dances.
I'd encourage women who suspect they're being "used" this way to, perhaps,
listen politely while still scanning the room with their gaze. I'd
encourage the men who resent this kind of shtik on the part of other men to
position themselves to offer a woman so monopolized the escape hatch of
catching your eye. Then the "conversation-only" partner might think twice
as his prey slips out between his fingers, back onto the floor, and cut to
the chase next time... ;>
Abrazos,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
==============================
"...after that tango, we are no longer strangers..."
--- Robert Heinlein, "The Number of the Beast"
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 06:57:45 -0700
From: Mark Rector <rmarkrector@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: White Flags
Crikey! If there's as much anxiety out there at
Milongas as it seems from the posts on this topic,
it's a wonder anybody is ever relaxed enough to just
dance! :)
I guess we do it a little differently in Chicago.
Tango here is a social event. We approach it socially.
Every Milonga is a party. People chat with each other,
table hop, introduce themselves to strangers and
invite them to dance or to sit at their table, ask
friends to dance--dance with 'em--sit with them and
chat for a while--dance with somebody else, scan the
room for a partner--make eye contact--nod and meet to
dance.
There's really very little "sturm und drang" involved.
We talk to whom we want and dance with whom we want
and then go home when the host finally kicks us out of
the hall.
Cheers! -Mark
