4528  Double time

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:41:46 +1200 (New Zealand Standard Time)
From: "Melroy" <melroyr@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: [Tango-L] Double time
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>

Double time?
I don't think its a case of playing a 4 minute song fast so that it takes 2
minutes.

My understanding: The underlying beat doubles but the actual melody on top
stays at the same pace. Imagine the singer keeps singing a ballad while the
drummer plays it as a hoedown.

Does that make sense ?
Maybe not, maybe I'll keep quite for a while, leave it to Jake.

Gee, I didn't want to get into syncopation, and now double time pops up!
(and what happened to Derik?)

I better go, Bye .....
Mel.




Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:39:48 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Double time
To: tango-l@mit.edu

"Double time?
I don't think its a case of playing a 4 minute song fast so that it takes 2
minutes.

My understanding: The underlying beat doubles but the actual melody on top
stays at the same pace. Imagine the singer keeps singing a ballad while the
drummer plays it as a hoedown."

Melroy is right - double time just means twice the beat but same length of
song. Like sixteen beats instead of eight.

Play Q6 for your chance to WIN great prizes.
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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 08:40:55 -0700
From: "Jonathan Thornton" <obscurebardo@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Double time
To: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<f9247e8a0607250840j53407814g990f5b851866dafb@mail.gmail.com>

Carol and anyone else interested,

I found this definition:

*Double time*: A tempo twice as fast, with the time feel, bar lines and
chords moving at twice the speed.
http://www.apassion4jazz.net/glossary.html

As far as I recall double time really means playing the piece at twice the
tempo, say a song whose score says 60 bpm is played at 120 bpm, which would
mean half the time. There is also:

*Double time feel*: A time feel twice as fast, so that written eighth notes
now sound like quarter notes, while the chords continue at the same speed as
before.
http://www.apassion4jazz.net/glossary.html

I'm not sure what you mean by "twice the beat" but perhaps you are talking
about an eighth
note rhythm but that doesn't change the tempo.

Jonathan Thornton

On 7/25/06, Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> "Double time?
> I don't think its a case of playing a 4 minute song fast so that it takes
> 2
> minutes.
>
> My understanding: The underlying beat doubles but the actual melody on top
> stays at the same pace. Imagine the singer keeps singing a ballad while
> the
> drummer plays it as a hoedown."
>
> Melroy is right - double time just means twice the beat but same length of
> song. Like sixteen beats instead of eight.
>

--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges







Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:54:16 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Double time
To: obscurebardo@gmail.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

You're right, it's twice the tempo.

caroline


----Original Message Follows----



From: "Jonathan Thornton" <obscurebardo@gmail.com>
To: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
CC: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Double time



Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:26:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Double time
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Maybe someone already mentioned this, but ... the way I heard folks use the term double time ("doble tiempo" - not "doble ritmo") in Buenos Aires is referring to when we step twice during a beat, or, put it differently, we step on each of the two eights comprising a quarter-note long beat. Some ppl call that, presumably incorrectly, syncopation (we heard enough about that here).

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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:11:49 -0500
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Double time

Trini:
Good explanation. My explanation is based on how a man sets up ochos. He does a double time step to get onto the SAME foot as the woman. In syncopated rhythm, instead of ONLY the man dancing double time, BOTH partners dance double time so there is no change between parallel (same foot) and cross (opposite foot) dancing.

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message -----



Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:58:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Double time


--- On Sun, 12/21/08, Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:

> Good explanation. My explanation is based on how a man sets
> up ochos. He does a double time step to get onto the SAME
> foot as the woman. In syncopated rhythm, instead of ONLY the
> man dancing double time, BOTH partners dance double time so
> there is no change between parallel (same foot) and cross
> (opposite foot) dancing.


That's just both partners dancing double-time, not syncopated. I believe your usage reflects the different uses of the word "syncopated" in the dance and music worlds. I've found it much more useful to use the music definition instead of a dance definition that I think comes from ballroom. I've noticed that teachers with ballroom backgrounds tend to use syncopated as synonymous with double-time, perhaps because ballroom music isn't as complex as tango music (to my ear, anyway).

Let's imagine a clock with the rhythm going in a continuous circle around the clock - around and around it goes. If the rhythm only strikes at the 12, then it is single-time.

If the rhythm strikes at 12, 6, and 12, then the rhythm is double-time. Suppose the man changes weight at 12 & 6 for backward ochos (stepping out for the ocho when the rhythm strikes 12 again), then he is doing double-time.

If, however, the man changes his weight at 12 & 3, and steps out for the ocho at 12, then he is dancing a syncopated rhythm.


Trini de Pittsburgh









Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 01:01:01 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Double time
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>


>
> If, however, the man changes his weight at 12 & 3, and steps out for the ocho at 12, then he is dancing a syncopated rhythm.
>

Isn't it that if he dances on the 12 & 3, he's doing the synchopa? If he dances on the 6 and the 6, he's dancing synchopated.

J

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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:32:40 EST
From: TimmyTango@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Double time

In a message dated 12/21/08 7:01:57 PM Central Standard Time,
jayrabe@hotmail.com writes:

<< Isn't it that if he dances on the 12 & 3, he's doing the synchopa? If he
dances on the 6 and the 6, he's dancing synchopated.
>>
Pablo Aslan, the bass player from Avantango, and The New York - Buenos Aires
Connection
explained it to me as
stepping on the 1, or the 2, or the 3, or the 4 would be double time
In tango and milonga we step on the 1 and the 3. The down beat.
Accent on the 1

Stepping on the 2 and the 4 are the up beats
In milonga there is a mark between the 2 and the 3. Sycopa
or said a different way a 1/4 note

I like to tell my students a sycopa is a
Quicker, quick, slow step
not a quick, quick, slow step

To many people dance slows and quick's (whole notes and half notes)
but never 1/4 notes, which we all need to do for a sycopa

1 2 , 3 4

Timmy in Cleveland<BR><BR><BR>**************<BR>One site keeps you connected
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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:41:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Double time
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>

Warning - if you're only in the "feel and move" camp and don't care for thinking, hit your delete key.

--- On Sun, 12/21/08, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > If, however, the man changes his weight at 12 & 3,
> and steps out for the ocho at 12, then he is dancing a
> syncopated rhythm.
> >
>
> Isn't it that if he dances on the 12 & 3, he's
> doing the synchopa?

Yes, it really only takes the 12 (left foot) & 3 (right foot) to do the syncopa. I added stepping out on 12 (left foot) to help complete the picture.


If he dances on the 6 and the 6,

> he's dancing synchopated.
>

Yes, since that would be skipping the 12 (or the strong beat of 1), but I don't see why anyone would do that. Got any examples?

I've been reviewing Norman's link to Gustavo & Giselle (http://public.me.com/natiber) again. I think my earlier analysis was off. I now think that at 39 seconds, the following was happening.

piano: milonga rhythm
other instruments: pause (not syncopa)
Gustavo: milonga rhythm

However, at 35 seconds, Gustavo matches the syncopa of one the instruments (the absence of beats). This is similar to what he does at 25-26 seconds. Any thoughts?

Also, I forgot to mention another common syncopa of "12 41" in my explanation of syncopas. A useful phrase to remember this with is "kiss ME good NIGHT" with an up accent on the words in caps. The clock equivalent would be 12 3 8 12.


Trini de Pittsburgh












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