4732 Fisking Chris and Neil
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:27:41 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fisking Chris and Neil
On Jan 26, 2007, at 11:46 PM, Tango Tango wrote:
> Chris.
>
> Most people in the US treat tango as a sport, so they are most
> comfortable
> approaching it in a sweatpants-wearing, water bottle-toting, dance
> sneakers-wearing setting such as a class or a practica.
> ...
> Neil
Neil, This is simply not true.
Most people in the US treat tango as a way to get out, meet people,
have some fun. Most spend one or two nights per week, but a few
really get the bug and work 10 or more hours.
Most people wear leather soled shoes and attire that ranges from
casual to party depending on the situation. At a milonga they dress
up a bit more. It also depends on the city. Denver and Portland are
more casual than LA and New York. You rarely see athletic garb
outside a workshop. Newcomers, often come to their first classes in
tennis shoes.
> On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 02:20 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
> tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
>>
>> OK, I stand corrected:
>>
>>> Denver, a metro area of perhaps 3 million people
>>
>> has not 2 milongas a week, but 2.5. Along with approx. 20 classes
>> etc.
>>
>>> I'll bet it is the same in pretty much everywhere.
>>
>> No, Tom. A European city of that size has about ten times as many
>> milongas.
Chris, are you engaging in hyperbole or gross hyperbole?
Denver proper is 500,000. Add in the suburbs (30 mile radius) and you
get 2.5 million. We have 3 well-attended milongas per week. We may
have as many as 500 different people doing tango any particular
month, not counting beginners who aren't yet hooked.
By Chris's formula:
London at 7 million would have 70 milongas per week, and Birmingham
at 1 million would have 10.
The 15th through 26th largest cities in the UK each has about 300,000
people. So, you must have 3 milongas per week in the following
cities: Wakefield, Cardiff, Dudley, Wigan, East Riding, South
Lanrakshire, Coventry, Belfast, Leicester, Sunderland, Sandwell and
Doncaster.
The sense of space and population is a lot different in the US when
compared to Europe.
Colorado is twice the land area of England, but has one tenth the
population, of which half live within 30 miles (50 km) of Denver. The
nearest cities of any size are about 300-400 miles away (Albuquerque
and Salt Lake City).
Dusseldorf is a little larger than Denver in population, but there
are 20 million people within a 60 mile (100 km) radius. The Denver
metro area covers Dusseldorf, Wuppertal, Essen, Dortmund and Cologne.
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:05 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fisking Chris and Neil
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Tom, Neil, Nina
> Chris, are you engaging in hyperbole or gross hyperbole?
Just reporting the facts, Tom.
> Denver .... 2.5 million. We have 3 well-attended milongas per week.
Paris, slightly smaller, has about 50 milongas a week.
Berlin, a bit larger, has about 25 milongas a week.
If you don't believe it, just ask around.
> By Chris's formula
I gave no formula.
Anyway, enough statistics. What I was asking about is not Denver's lack of
milongas, but its surfiet of classes relative to milongas. Neil and Nina's
comments on this are most interesting - thanks, both - as are yours, Tom:
> Most people in the US treat tango as a way to get out, meet people,
> have some fun.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Here, if you want to "get out,
meet people, have fun" you go to a milonga rather than a class.
> a few really get the bug and work 10 or more hours.
And here work is something you do when /not/ dancing.
The USA must be the only place in the world where social tango is
considered work. Everywhere else, it is play.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* [Tango-L] Fisking Chris and Neil
*From:* Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
*Date:* Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:27:41 -0700
On Jan 26, 2007, at 11:46 PM, Tango Tango wrote:
> Chris.
>
> Most people in the US treat tango as a sport, so they are most
> comfortable
> approaching it in a sweatpants-wearing, water bottle-toting, dance
> sneakers-wearing setting such as a class or a practica.
> ...
> Neil
Neil, This is simply not true.
Most people in the US treat tango as a way to get out, meet people,
have some fun. Most spend one or two nights per week, but a few
really get the bug and work 10 or more hours.
Most people wear leather soled shoes and attire that ranges from
casual to party depending on the situation. At a milonga they dress
up a bit more. It also depends on the city. Denver and Portland are
more casual than LA and New York. You rarely see athletic garb
outside a workshop. Newcomers, often come to their first classes in
tennis shoes.
> On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 02:20 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
> tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
>>
>> OK, I stand corrected:
>>
>>> Denver, a metro area of perhaps 3 million people
>>
>> has not 2 milongas a week, but 2.5. Along with approx. 20 classes
>> etc.
>>
>>> I'll bet it is the same in pretty much everywhere.
>>
>> No, Tom. A European city of that size has about ten times as many
>> milongas.
Chris, are you engaging in hyperbole or gross hyperbole?
Denver proper is 500,000. Add in the suburbs (30 mile radius) and you
get 2.5 million. We have 3 well-attended milongas per week. We may
have as many as 500 different people doing tango any particular
month, not counting beginners who aren't yet hooked.
By Chris's formula:
London at 7 million would have 70 milongas per week, and Birmingham
at 1 million would have 10.
The 15th through 26th largest cities in the UK each has about 300,000
people. So, you must have 3 milongas per week in the following
cities: Wakefield, Cardiff, Dudley, Wigan, East Riding, South
Lanrakshire, Coventry, Belfast, Leicester, Sunderland, Sandwell and
Doncaster.
The sense of space and population is a lot different in the US when
compared to Europe.
Colorado is twice the land area of England, but has one tenth the
population, of which half live within 30 miles (50 km) of Denver. The
nearest cities of any size are about 300-400 miles away (Albuquerque
and Salt Lake City).
Dusseldorf is a little larger than Denver in population, but there
are 20 million people within a 60 mile (100 km) radius. The Denver
metro area covers Dusseldorf, Wuppertal, Essen, Dortmund and Cologne.
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:42:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fisking Chris and Neil
To: tango-l@mit.edu
tl2@chrisjj.com ("Chris, UK") writes:
>
> The USA must be the only place in the world where social
> tango is considered work. Everywhere else, it is play.
Your generalizations are getting tedious, Chris.
And where do you get off calling yourself European
anyway--the English Channel is there for a reason,
to wit, to keep off the continent (or at least stem
the tide of) Brit wankers like you, whose idea of
culture is cracking a beer bottle over the head of
anyone whose football blouse is a different color
than his own.
Huck
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:43:27 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fisking Chris and Neil
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Jan 29, 2007, at 2:05 PM, Chris, UK wrote:
> Tom, Neil, Nina
>
>> Chris, are you engaging in hyperbole or gross hyperbole?
>
> Just reporting the facts, Tom.
>
>> Denver .... 2.5 million. We have 3 well-attended milongas per week.
>
> Paris, slightly smaller, has about 50 milongas a week.
> Berlin, a bit larger, has about 25 milongas a week.
>
> If you don't believe it, just ask around.
> ...
> Chris
You are pretending that Berlin and Paris as typical, average European
tango communities?
As I understand it, the new wave of Tango started in Berlin before
1980, and Paris probably around the samte time. In North America,
Tango started before 1990 in a few cities: Montreal, New York, Los
Angeles, San Francisco.
The big tango wave in the Canada and the US started in the mid-90s.
Denver in 1995. So, Berlin has 25 years and Denver has 10.
When did tango start in London? When did it start outside of London?
Is there tango in Slough?
There are cultural aspects to this, of course.
Big cities, especially world capitals like London, Paris, New York
are usually ahead of the wave, and smaller cities trailing. These
days in the US most big ciities and a lot of University towns have
tango.
I suspect that the story is not that different in Europe, but it
started particularly early in Germany, Switzerland and France.
