4572 Getting students to dances
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:04:59 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Getting students to dances
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I do that every Tuesday - found a nice caf? with half-price bottles of
wine that will let us play tango. Only the regulars come, though!
>The only other thing I've thought of doing is to actually TAKE the
students
>out after class, similar to what a lot of tours to BsAs do.
J
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:59:18 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Getting students to dances
To: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
In Tokyo, the milonga and the classes are often in the same room. Often an
extra class without a fixed level right before a milonga starts. Another
extra class before the practica starts. Many of the students simply stay, go
to put on make up, change their clothes (cocktails dresses, fishnet
stockings etc. are often brought in a bag), the light gets switched off,
music plays, drinks are served, more people start arriving all evening, and
voila, here is the milonga. If they want to have a grand milonga with
hundreds of people, they do it somewhere else and put a show on the program.
Most students sooner or later join the milongas, only the hopeless cases
stay in the classes only forever, and maybe that's why they don't progress
as much.
I do that every Tuesday - found a nice caf・瘢雹with half-price bottles of
wine that will let us play tango. Only the regulars come, though!
>The only other thing I've thought of doing is to actually TAKE the
students
>out after class, similar to what a lot of tours to BsAs do.
J
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:44:08 -0500
From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Getting students to dances
To: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>, astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340608171744p90ab7bfob0953842907cef66@mail.gmail.com>
On 8/17/06, Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net> wrote:
>
> So how does a teacher get her students to a milonga if they don't think
> they're ready? I would love to see my students go out more often.
.
.
.
> Still some beginners won't venture out -
> "not good enough yet" or "won't know anybody".
This is a persisting dilemma!
One thing I've found in our community is that there are 2
counter-intuitive groups in our community:
(1) those who attend milongas, but don't attend classes
(2) those who attend classes, but don't attend milongas.
The remaining 2 groups
(3) those who attend classes and attend milongas
(4) those who do not attend classes and do not attend milongas
are not counter-intuitive.
On 8/17/06, astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:
>
> Most students sooner or later join the milongas, only the hopeless cases
> stay in the classes only forever, and maybe that's why they don't progress
> as much.
>
Perhaps this is true in some communities, but I have seen something
different in my own tango community:
The best dancers indeed are those who both attend classes and milongas
(Group 3), as well as a select few have taken classes for several
years and are no longer taking classes with local instructors but are
taking private lessons with traveling instructors at home or in other
communities, dance at festivals, have danced at Buenos Aires milongas,
etc.
In comparing Groups 1 & 2, I see some patterns:
Group 1 consists of rapid learners, who feel classes go too slow, feel
they have learned enough from classes to dance at milongas and don't
need further instruction. Typically, these are people who have studied
tango 6 months or less. They develop rapidly to an early intermediate
level and dwell there - indefinitely. They do not progress to an
advanced level.
Group 2 consists of people who learn more slowly, perhaps lacking some
self-confidence because Group 1 dancers in the same classes are
learning faster. By year 1 they still may not have acquired the skills
that Group 1 dancers have acquired in 6 months, but by Year 2 they
have surpassed them. What they acquire in additional study is better
technique, better leading and following, better improvisational
skills, better musicality.
The time line for these differences probably varies by community,
local instructors, and style of tango. So do the demographic
characteristics. In our university community, for the most part group
1 consists of university students and group 2 consists of older
people, usually over 40.
Younger dancers generally learn faster and have higher
self-confidence. The older dancers, however, do have the wisdom to
know how much they really don't know. In therir defense, the younger
dancers have some preferences and contraints that affect their
choices. The most important is undoubtedly limited income. If the
choice needs to be made, milongas are usually less expensive than
classes. There are also time constraints. The younger dancers in our
community are mostly graduate students and postdocs, and may not have
sufficient time available for both classes and milongas. On the other
hand, some of them are also exploring other activities, perhaps swing
or salsa dancing, perhaps tai chi or sky-diving.
The problem is to get the students who really are better dancers to go
to the milongas. This is a complex issue and success depends on
numerous factors, but increasing their self-confidence and creating an
environment that is comfortable and fun is important. There are
probably many ways to do this, but addressing this issue is important
because I believe all of us would prefer to have more good dancers at
the milongas.
Ron
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:14:22 -0700
From: Hoyt Ng <hoytlee@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Getting students to dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I am postulating there are a few things at work here:
1. most classes that are held before the milongas are usually
arranged- beginners then intermediate/advanced then milonga. Based
on this model, most beginners won't hang around that extra hour for
the milonga, they'll go out and eat and not come back or stay and
watch and get intimated watching the int/adv folks and leave.
I'd be curious if anyone has reversed this model and had the int/adv
class first, then the beg. and then the milonga. more than likely
the int/adv students will stick around for the milonga, they could
even assist the beg students and thus make them feel more comfortable
when the milonga starts right afterwards. of course this requires a
charitable spirit form the int/adv folks.
2. shell shock and intimidation, I remember the first time I went to
a milonga, it wasn't a very good experience at all. personally, i
don't think there are enough practicas around to let the beginner's
ease their way into the milonga milieu. I find practicas a less
threatening way for beginners to nail down the navigation thing,
practicas tend to be less crowded and more forgiving when a student
makes a mistake on the dance floor, they can stop, fix it and
continue without facing the wrath of the other dancers. at a
practica they won't be judged which is a fear of a lot of beginners.
3. i don't think beginners are prepared mentally as to what to
expect at a milonga nor how they should approach it. set the
expectations, including how frequently they may be dancing, how to
handle rejection, etc., etc., ... otherwise their first experience
can be very disappointing.
be well,
hoyt
On Aug 17, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Ron Weigel wrote:
> On 8/17/06, Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net> wrote:
>>
>> So how does a teacher get her students to a milonga if they don't
>> think
>> they're ready? I would love to see my students go out more often.
> .
> .
> .
>> Still some beginners won't venture out -
>> "not good enough yet" or "won't know anybody".
>
> This is a persisting dilemma!
>
> One thing I've found in our community is that there are 2
> counter-intuitive groups in our community:
> (1) those who attend milongas, but don't attend classes
> (2) those who attend classes, but don't attend milongas.
>
> The remaining 2 groups
> (3) those who attend classes and attend milongas
> (4) those who do not attend classes and do not attend milongas
> are not counter-intuitive.
>
>
> On 8/17/06, astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:
>>
>> Most students sooner or later join the milongas, only the hopeless
>> cases
>> stay in the classes only forever, and maybe that's why they don't
>> progress
>> as much.
>>
>
> Perhaps this is true in some communities, but I have seen something
> different in my own tango community:
>
> The best dancers indeed are those who both attend classes and milongas
> (Group 3), as well as a select few have taken classes for several
> years and are no longer taking classes with local instructors but are
> taking private lessons with traveling instructors at home or in other
> communities, dance at festivals, have danced at Buenos Aires milongas,
> etc.
>
> In comparing Groups 1 & 2, I see some patterns:
>
> Group 1 consists of rapid learners, who feel classes go too slow, feel
> they have learned enough from classes to dance at milongas and don't
> need further instruction. Typically, these are people who have studied
> tango 6 months or less. They develop rapidly to an early intermediate
> level and dwell there - indefinitely. They do not progress to an
> advanced level.
>
> Group 2 consists of people who learn more slowly, perhaps lacking some
> self-confidence because Group 1 dancers in the same classes are
> learning faster. By year 1 they still may not have acquired the skills
> that Group 1 dancers have acquired in 6 months, but by Year 2 they
> have surpassed them. What they acquire in additional study is better
> technique, better leading and following, better improvisational
> skills, better musicality.
>
> The time line for these differences probably varies by community,
> local instructors, and style of tango. So do the demographic
> characteristics. In our university community, for the most part group
> 1 consists of university students and group 2 consists of older
> people, usually over 40.
>
> Younger dancers generally learn faster and have higher
> self-confidence. The older dancers, however, do have the wisdom to
> know how much they really don't know. In therir defense, the younger
> dancers have some preferences and contraints that affect their
> choices. The most important is undoubtedly limited income. If the
> choice needs to be made, milongas are usually less expensive than
> classes. There are also time constraints. The younger dancers in our
> community are mostly graduate students and postdocs, and may not have
> sufficient time available for both classes and milongas. On the other
> hand, some of them are also exploring other activities, perhaps swing
> or salsa dancing, perhaps tai chi or sky-diving.
>
> The problem is to get the students who really are better dancers to go
> to the milongas. This is a complex issue and success depends on
> numerous factors, but increasing their self-confidence and creating an
> environment that is comfortable and fun is important. There are
> probably many ways to do this, but addressing this issue is important
> because I believe all of us would prefer to have more good dancers at
> the milongas.
>
> Ron
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:45:36 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Getting students to dances
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Great ideas.
I have my beginning class first, then advanced, and of course the
beginners don't stay, especially since my classes are an hour and a half
rather than just an hour. I'm wondering whether I should reverse that! I
let the advanced people come to the beginning classes for free.
You are right about not knowing what to expect. That's why I try to have
events at cafes and bars, rather than renting studios. Everyone knows
how to sit at a bar.
I tell my beginners that whether they take lessons for one week or one
year, the first time they step on the milonga floor will be terrifying.
They've just got to screw up their courage and do it.
Lois
-----Original Message-----
From: Hoyt Ng [mailto:hoytlee@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:14 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Getting students to dances
I am postulating there are a few things at work here:
1. most classes that are held before the milongas are usually
arranged- beginners then intermediate/advanced then milonga. Based
on this model, most beginners won't hang around that extra hour for
the milonga, they'll go out and eat and not come back or stay and
watch and get intimated watching the int/adv folks and leave.
I'd be curious if anyone has reversed this model and had the int/adv
class first, then the beg. and then the milonga. more than likely
the int/adv students will stick around for the milonga, they could
even assist the beg students and thus make them feel more comfortable
when the milonga starts right afterwards. of course this requires a
charitable spirit form the int/adv folks.
2. shell shock and intimidation, I remember the first time I went to
a milonga, it wasn't a very good experience at all. personally, i
don't think there are enough practicas around to let the beginner's
ease their way into the milonga milieu. I find practicas a less
threatening way for beginners to nail down the navigation thing,
practicas tend to be less crowded and more forgiving when a student
makes a mistake on the dance floor, they can stop, fix it and
continue without facing the wrath of the other dancers. at a
practica they won't be judged which is a fear of a lot of beginners.
3. i don't think beginners are prepared mentally as to what to
expect at a milonga nor how they should approach it. set the
expectations, including how frequently they may be dancing, how to
handle rejection, etc., etc., ... otherwise their first experience
can be very disappointing.
be well,
hoyt
On Aug 17, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Ron Weigel wrote:
> On 8/17/06, Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net> wrote:
>>
>> So how does a teacher get her students to a milonga if they don't
>> think
>> they're ready? I would love to see my students go out more often.
> .
> .
> .
>> Still some beginners won't venture out -
>> "not good enough yet" or "won't know anybody".
>
> This is a persisting dilemma!
>
> One thing I've found in our community is that there are 2
> counter-intuitive groups in our community:
> (1) those who attend milongas, but don't attend classes
> (2) those who attend classes, but don't attend milongas.
>
> The remaining 2 groups
> (3) those who attend classes and attend milongas
> (4) those who do not attend classes and do not attend milongas
> are not counter-intuitive.
>
>
> On 8/17/06, astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:
>>
>> Most students sooner or later join the milongas, only the hopeless
>> cases
>> stay in the classes only forever, and maybe that's why they don't
>> progress
>> as much.
>>
>
> Perhaps this is true in some communities, but I have seen something
> different in my own tango community:
>
> The best dancers indeed are those who both attend classes and milongas
> (Group 3), as well as a select few have taken classes for several
> years and are no longer taking classes with local instructors but are
> taking private lessons with traveling instructors at home or in other
> communities, dance at festivals, have danced at Buenos Aires milongas,
> etc.
>
> In comparing Groups 1 & 2, I see some patterns:
>
> Group 1 consists of rapid learners, who feel classes go too slow, feel
> they have learned enough from classes to dance at milongas and don't
> need further instruction. Typically, these are people who have studied
> tango 6 months or less. They develop rapidly to an early intermediate
> level and dwell there - indefinitely. They do not progress to an
> advanced level.
>
> Group 2 consists of people who learn more slowly, perhaps lacking some
> self-confidence because Group 1 dancers in the same classes are
> learning faster. By year 1 they still may not have acquired the skills
> that Group 1 dancers have acquired in 6 months, but by Year 2 they
> have surpassed them. What they acquire in additional study is better
> technique, better leading and following, better improvisational
> skills, better musicality.
>
> The time line for these differences probably varies by community,
> local instructors, and style of tango. So do the demographic
> characteristics. In our university community, for the most part group
> 1 consists of university students and group 2 consists of older
> people, usually over 40.
>
> Younger dancers generally learn faster and have higher
> self-confidence. The older dancers, however, do have the wisdom to
> know how much they really don't know. In therir defense, the younger
> dancers have some preferences and contraints that affect their
> choices. The most important is undoubtedly limited income. If the
> choice needs to be made, milongas are usually less expensive than
> classes. There are also time constraints. The younger dancers in our
> community are mostly graduate students and postdocs, and may not have
> sufficient time available for both classes and milongas. On the other
> hand, some of them are also exploring other activities, perhaps swing
> or salsa dancing, perhaps tai chi or sky-diving.
>
> The problem is to get the students who really are better dancers to go
> to the milongas. This is a complex issue and success depends on
> numerous factors, but increasing their self-confidence and creating an
> environment that is comfortable and fun is important. There are
> probably many ways to do this, but addressing this issue is important
> because I believe all of us would prefer to have more good dancers at
> the milongas.
>
> Ron
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 01:57:59 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Getting students to dances (one exemple in
detail)
To: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Great ideas.
> I have my beginning class first, then advanced, and of course the
> beginners don't stay, especially since my classes are an hour and a half
> rather than just an hour. I'm wondering whether I should reverse that! I
> let the advanced people come to the beginning classes for free.
>
> You are right about not knowing what to expect. That's why I try to have
> events at cafes and bars, rather than renting studios. Everyone knows
> how to sit at a bar.
In Tokyo, we have a few studios that specialise in tango only, and they are
open all week.. Luna de Tango, e.g., which is owned by Argentines, uses
daytime and late night (after 10pm) for privadas. The evenings of the
weekdays are mostly for classes: Monday milonga, then beginners. Tuesdays a
practica. Wednesdays intermediate. Thursdays tango fantasia. Fridays and
Saturdays a milonga and Sundays a practica. Fri, Sat, and Sun have a class
each before the milonga/practica starts, and these are different from the
other classes: no fixed regular clientele, anybody who wants to show up, can
participate (you can for the others too,but you'll meet a lot of the same
people whenever you do). The teachers look who is there in those weekend
classes, and then decide on what to teach, ad hoc. If there are very
different levels, and enough people, they make two groups taught by two
teachers each. Once I brought a friend who had never tangoed before, and she
got taken aside by one of the assistents who showed her the very basics. If
there are not enough men, the assistents join in the class to dance with the
extra women. If there is a huge imbalance, they make people change roles.
The advanced women have to lead other women. If some teachers are out for a
performance somewhere, whoever is there, teaches: two male teachers
together one doing the woman's role, or two female teachers together, one
doing the man's role. Or a couple. Or one teacher alone who does the demos
with one of the students.
They adjust to the situation of the day.
For a while they even had a folklore class on Saturday afternoons, and I
learned to dance a bit of the Gato and the Chacarera. Great fun, by the way.
Laura came out in an adorable pink folklore skirt , rather than in one of
her usual drop dead tango outfits.
Once in a while, they have a performance in the middle of the milonga. Every
Saturday there is a little tombola, where you can win a t-shirt, a free
milonga, a bottle of wine or a cd or whatever with your entrance ticket..
One of these is often won by a new man who has come for the first time to
the milonga, I noticed...
They have been fairly successful with their studio. Up from the teaching
couple who started 6 years ago or so, to their own studio, to two, then
four, now five assistents brought over from BA who get trained to be
teachers and performers, and now also a cute tango tenor who is learning in
his free time to double as a passionate but untrained taxi dancer who sings
into your ear and occasionally, as a bar keeper.
This year again, two of the assistant teachers are participating in the
mundial de tango and are in BA right now with their Japanese partners
(recruited from among the students, often pro teachers themselves of another
dance). Cristian, who won 4th place last year in tango escenario stayed here
this time, so I get to dance with him for a tanda each week in the milongas
and sometimes the milonga class . ; )
>
----------------------
On 8/17/06, astrid wrote:
>
> Most students sooner or later join the milongas, only the hopeless cases
> stay in the classes only forever, and maybe that's why they don't progress
> as much.
>
Ron:
Perhaps this is true in some communities, but I have seen something
different in my own tango community:
The best dancers indeed are those who both attend classes and milongas
(Group 3), as well as a select few have taken classes for several
years and are no longer taking classes with local instructors but are
taking private lessons with traveling instructors at home or in other
communities, dance at festivals, have danced at Buenos Aires milongas,
etc.
Ron, you misread me, I wrote: classes only forever.
We have the group 3 here too.
Astrid
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:06:07 -0600
From: dschmitz@magellan.teq.stortek.com (Dave Schmitz)
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Getting students to dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu, donnay@donnay.net
Cc: dschmitz007@yahoo.com
> I tell my beginners that whether they take lessons for one week or one
> year, the first time they step on the milonga floor will be terrifying.
> They've just got to screw up their courage and do it.
>
> Lois
Wow!
That sounds very discouraging.
Recently, while home to see my folks and all, I took a piano lesson
from my aunt. She's a phenomenon, improvises anything, plays in
any key, transposing on the fly, van Cliburn competition, etc.
I quit piano way back at the age of 12, and though I'd played maybe
one hour per year since then, I knew I was rusty. Couldn't even
read sheet music any more.
She had a great exercise. Pick a favorite tune, any one. Now hit
a piano key without looking. Now play the tune.
Mistakes? Yep!
I was really uncomfortable making mistakes,
especially on her beautiful Steinway grand.
After one mistake, I mumbled somthing like "oops", and she
replied,
"don't worry, that's just an embellishment".
And went on to say that even pros make mistakes, and
they just play through it.
With those little phrases, she took all my fears away.
Teach these to beginners
"oops" is just an embellishment
just play through
Take their fears away.
Don't give them fears they might not have.
Don't tell them it will be terrifying.
Tell them it will be fun.
Have them all go together, as a cub pack.
Have them support each other, & be loyal to their classmates.
DJ Dave de Denver
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:07:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Hoyt Ng <hoytlee@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Getting students to dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<9220225.1155928066072.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
That's actually a good approach. Improv teaches folks to make their mistakes "up", that is laugh it off so you don't punish yourself for it, that includes how you physically carry yourself after the error.
I also had some great advice once from an Argentine tango instructor who said, what's the big deal you're only one beat away from fixing any problem, you've only got two feet and you're on one of them just change feet. kinda puts it all in perspective.
>Wow!
>That sounds very discouraging.
>
>
>Recently, while home to see my folks and all, I took a piano lesson
>from my aunt. She's a phenomenon, improvises anything, plays in
>any key, transposing on the fly, van Cliburn competition, etc.
>
>I quit piano way back at the age of 12, and though I'd played maybe
>one hour per year since then, I knew I was rusty. Couldn't even
>read sheet music any more.
>
>She had a great exercise. Pick a favorite tune, any one. Now hit
>a piano key without looking. Now play the tune.
>
>Mistakes? Yep!
>I was really uncomfortable making mistakes,
>especially on her beautiful Steinway grand.
>
>After one mistake, I mumbled somthing like "oops", and she
>replied,
>
>"don't worry, that's just an embellishment".
>
>And went on to say that even pros make mistakes, and
>they just play through it.
>
>With those little phrases, she took all my fears away.
>
>
>Teach these to beginners
> "oops" is just an embellishment
> just play through
>
>Take their fears away.
>
>Don't give them fears they might not have.
>Don't tell them it will be terrifying.
>
>Tell them it will be fun.
>Have them all go together, as a cub pack.
>Have them support each other, & be loyal to their classmates.
>
>
>DJ Dave de Denver
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:08:26 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Getting students to dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
What I like about my school is that advanced students would join beginner
classes by way of getting extra practice. Thus the beginner students get to
know the more advanced. The more advanced are the ones who tend to go to
Milongas. Beginners are then emboldened to go to Milongas because of the
confidence they had gained from dancing with more advanced students in the
classroom. So, it's nice to go to a Milonga and be welcomed by the more
advanced students that you've had a chance to become friends with. It's more
difficult going to Milongas where you are not yet familiar with other
people.
So, I think it's good practice to encouraged advanced students to dance with
the beginners - it creates the bridge from classroom to Milongas.
Why do I feel as though I've just written an if and then argument for
Philosophy of Logic class?
Play Q6 for your chance to WIN great prizes.
https://q6trivia.imagine-live.com/enca/landing
