6250  improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions

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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:18:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
Cc: amaurycdsf@gmail.com

I probably should just mind my own business and do as I have said before in other postings.... work instead of reading tango related messages. However I see an opportunity here to help future online interactions.

The problem with text only computer mediated communication (mostly text-based applications such as chat, BBS and email) is that the medium is in itself very 'lean'. By lean I mean we do not have other nuances such as visual and aural cues for us to interpret what someone is 'saying'.

In such situations humans (showing remarkable adaptability) created strategies for coping with the lack of minimal cues. Such strategies include the use of emoticons :-) ... :-( .... ;-/ ; acronyms (LOL, IMHO, LOLAR) ; and certain writing strategies to minimize potential for misunderstandings.

Having said that... we can also really complicate communication in lean text-based communication . Here are some approaches that do not lend themselves to constructive communication...

The use of absolute statements is not very helpful and sometimes alienating. For example Myk writes -->
"... must have _some_ difference";
" ...You cannot lead an underarm...";
"... All leading comes from the chest..."; and etc

(I could go on extracting more text from the message... but this must suffice.

Another helpful hint for successful communication is to avoid complex constructs of ideas... for example our dear Chicho simply stated "not arms... just connection"... that should be enough. I mean I don?t know you guys but I have the sense that our audience has shown over the years a certain amount of fluency and intelligence. So there is no reason to offend the audience by repeating oneself an restating the obvious.

Finally, we should all know that the real experts seldom if ever post to the list... What I mean is that we are all AMATEURS... So we should show some humility and tone down our language and thoughts of intellectual and dance grandeur.


Following these simple rules could help improve the quality of our discussions.

Amaury

PS: On a side note I must note that some of these patterns of behavior are ingrained in people as a result of educational, cultural, and GENDER experiences. So things will not change overnight ... but at least we can try.

-----Original Message-----



Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:19:35 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Amaury de Siqueira wrote:

> In such situations humans (showing remarkable adaptability) created strategies for coping with the lack of minimal cues. Such strategies include the use of emoticons :-) ... :-( .... ;-/ ; acronyms (LOL, IMHO, LOLAR) ; and certain writing strategies to minimize potential for misunderstandings.

If I'm joking, I'll consider using them. But I'm trying to have a
serious discussion about the _differences_ that separate nuevo tango
from what came before (which I refer to as "traditional tango" for sake
of convenience).

> The use of absolute statements is not very helpful and sometimes alienating. For example Myk writes -->
> "... must have _some_ difference";
> " ...You cannot lead an underarm...";
> "... All leading comes from the chest..."; and etc

But sometimes an absolute statement is helpful. Does anyone want to deny
that there _is_ a difference between nuevo and traditional tango? If so,
they're welcome to say so. _That's_ the way to have a discussion.

I welcome anyone to explain how an underarm turn can _possibly_ be lead
without using one's arm. Some absolute statements are entirely justified.

And I was simply repeating other people's "all leading comes from the
chest" statements in order to deconstruct the statement, so you can't
blame that absolute statement on me. I was in fact just saying that it's
not entirely true.

> (I could go on extracting more text from the message... but this must suffice.
>
> Another helpful hint for successful communication is to avoid complex constructs of ideas... for example our dear Chicho simply stated "not arms... just connection"... that should be enough. I mean I don?t know you guys but I have the sense that our audience has shown over the years a certain amount of fluency and intelligence. So there is no reason to offend the audience by repeating oneself an restating the obvious.

No, it isn't enough, because he might just be (gasp!) wrong. When it
comes down to it, people don't always realise what they do with their
own bodies. What does Chicho mean when he says "just connection"? When
his only physical connection to his partner is through his arms, then
surely he _is_ using them?

And what on Earth is _wrong_ with using your arms to dance? Where did
this whole "no arms" schtick come from, and how has it become elevated
to such a high level of worthiness? People are treating this like it's a
touchier subject than religion or politics. It's just dancing, people!
Relax!

> Finally, we should all know that the real experts seldom if ever post to the list... What I mean is that we are all AMATEURS... So we should show some humility and tone down our language and thoughts of intellectual and dance grandeur.

But doing that makes the list a bland nonentity that isn't worth
reading. We become more than amateurs by discussing things, and using
what we learn. Humble posts with little substance and many qualifiers
are _boring_ posts.

Let me just make one thing clear. I _like_ nuevo. I dance nuevo myself
at times (though nowhere near as well as Damian, let alone Chicho).


Myk
in Canberra





From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Myk Dowling
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:20 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions

Amaury de Siqueira wrote:

> In such situations humans (showing remarkable adaptability) created strategies for coping with the lack of minimal cues. Such strategies include the use of emoticons :-) ... :-( .... ;-/ ; acronyms (LOL, IMHO, LOLAR) ; and certain writing strategies to minimize potential for misunderstandings.

If I'm joking, I'll consider using them. But I'm trying to have a
serious discussion about the _differences_ that separate nuevo tango
from what came before (which I refer to as "traditional tango" for sake
of convenience).

> The use of absolute statements is not very helpful and sometimes alienating. For example Myk writes -->
> "... must have _some_ difference";
> " ...You cannot lead an underarm...";
> "... All leading comes from the chest..."; and etc

But sometimes an absolute statement is helpful. Does anyone want to deny
that there _is_ a difference between nuevo and traditional tango? If so,
they're welcome to say so. _That's_ the way to have a discussion.

I welcome anyone to explain how an underarm turn can _possibly_ be lead
without using one's arm. Some absolute statements are entirely justified.

And I was simply repeating other people's "all leading comes from the
chest" statements in order to deconstruct the statement, so you can't
blame that absolute statement on me. I was in fact just saying that it's
not entirely true.

> (I could go on extracting more text from the message... but this must suffice.
>
> Another helpful hint for successful communication is to avoid complex constructs of ideas... for example our dear Chicho simply stated "not arms... just connection"... that should be enough. I mean I don?t know you guys but I have the sense that our audience has shown over the years a certain amount of fluency and intelligence. So there is no reason to offend the audience by repeating oneself an restating the obvious.

No, it isn't enough, because he might just be (gasp!) wrong. When it
comes down to it, people don't always realise what they do with their
own bodies. What does Chicho mean when he says "just connection"? When
his only physical connection to his partner is through his arms, then
surely he _is_ using them?

And what on Earth is _wrong_ with using your arms to dance? Where did
this whole "no arms" schtick come from, and how has it become elevated
to such a high level of worthiness? People are treating this like it's a
touchier subject than religion or politics. It's just dancing, people!
Relax!

> Finally, we should all know that the real experts seldom if ever post to the list... What I mean is that we are all AMATEURS... So we should show some humility and tone down our language and thoughts of intellectual and dance grandeur.

But doing that makes the list a bland nonentity that isn't worth
reading. We become more than amateurs by discussing things, and using
what we learn. Humble posts with little substance and many qualifiers
are _boring_ posts.

Let me just make one thing clear. I _like_ nuevo. I dance nuevo myself
at times (though nowhere near as well as Damian, let alone Chicho).


Myk
in Canberra











Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 04:20:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Certainly not from Buenos Aires! I'm currently taking classes with Susanna Miller in Mlongueando 2009. Almost her first statement was that .... "the idea that milongueros lead from the chest is a myth - they use their hands and arms". For the last 2 days, after years of leading from the chest,?I've been struggling to lead a lady's Back Ocho while keeping my chest perfectly still.

I also take privates with Ana Maria Schapira. Same thing. She says to lead the Ocho Cortado, I need to use a strong inward pressure with my right forearm, otherwise the lady is likely to cross behind and not in front.

And please don't flame me and tell me thing?EVERYTHING can be led from chest only. I also believed that, but I'm not about to argue with Susanna Miller or Ana Maria Schapira.

Jack


> From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
>
> And what on Earth is _wrong_ with using your arms to dance? Where did
> this whole "no arms" schtick come from, and how has it become elevated
> to such a high level of worthiness??
>
>










Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:56:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
To: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

It just so happens that I was in that same class, Jack, when Susana shocked me too with her statement about the "myth." But, when you look at her leading, she does it with her whole frame, of course, not only the arms (someone else mentioned that on this list), unless she is exaggerating to illustrate something. Also, I took quite a few private lessons with Ana Maria and I never ever heard her say to lead with arms (only).

On the other hand I followed a few milongueros in various classes to feel what their lead feels like and occasionally I did feel a strong hand lead - perhaps they felt that otherwise I would not get the lead, I don't know.

In my view, there may be some very exceptional cases of dancing chest-to-chest when some more action of arms may be a bit helpful, but in general it should not be necessary at all.

So, no big deal. Whatever works and is comfortable to both partners is fine with me. There is no Central Committee on tango, no?

...dubravko

===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================




________________________________



Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:20:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions

Certainly not from Buenos Aires! I'm currently taking classes with Susanna Miller in Mlongueando 2009. Almost her first statement was that .... "the idea that milongueros lead from the chest is a myth - they use their hands and arms". For the last 2 days, after years of leading from the chest, I've been struggling to lead a lady's Back Ocho while keeping my chest perfectly still.

I also take privates with Ana Maria Schapira. Same thing. She says to lead the Ocho Cortado, I need to use a strong inward pressure with my right forearm, otherwise the lady is likely to cross behind and not in front.

And please don't flame me and tell me thing EVERYTHING can be led from chest only. I also believed that, but I'm not about to argue with Susanna Miller or Ana Maria Schapira.

Jack


> From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
>
> And what on Earth is _wrong_ with using your arms to dance? Where did
> this whole "no arms" schtick come from, and how has it become elevated
> to such a high level of worthiness?
>
>









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