298 keeping on the beat when the leader doesn't
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:23:27 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: keeping on the beat when the leader doesn't
I also got a lot of responses off-list, as Bibi did,
when I asked last week what the best thing was to do
if the leader did not himself move on the beat. I'd
like to share a couple of them here (without
identifying each author, since they didn't actually
post to the list). I am grateful, though, and I think
other newish followers might find some of these
suggestions helpful also. So:
[A message with a similar suggestion to the one Astrid
has just made to Bibi]
'There is one thing that helps a lot. Put your weight
down at the beat. This sounds like what we call
"walking", but it is more than that. By being really
solid, putting your weight into the ground, being
"grounded", then the leader feels "when" you are and
has to deal with it. What happens is that you are
easy to move the moment you step at the beat, but
harder to move at other times.'
[Another similar suggestion, but with a caveat]
'Gavito demonstrated something very interesting in a
workshop this weekend. He showed how he could take a
huge amount of time in the cross and make a leader
wait on him. He claimed that when women wish men
would allow them time to do something, the problem is
often that the women simply don't take the time. So
it's a led dance, but there is a dialogue going on.
He frequently says that, as a leader, he leads AND he
follows.
Hopefully, your leaders will improve in their rhythmic
sense. Being with the music is definitely more
gratifying. In the mean time, the most important
thing is to be together. '
[another with teh same idea]
'If you don't let him rush you through movements, and
you do them musically, then chances are you will
slow him down enough that he might start to feel the
music as well. If a begining lead doesn't lead
something well, don't follow it, but if he asks you to
step, take your time and stay with the music. This
will help your own balance and enjoyment of the dance,
and will tacitly tell the guy he needs to pay more
attention.'
[And finally, one that made me think of another
question]
'Unfortunately you shouldn't try to back lead even if
for sake of the rhythm. Follow the best you can with
the lead you're given.'
So - is it backleading to hold off to step on the
beat? I'm trying desperately to follow, but it is
agonizing to step: off the beat, off the beat, off the
beat, on - just because theleader is doing so.
Marisa
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:54:25 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: keeping on the beat when the leader doesn't
Hi Marissa and list!
> So - is it backleading to hold off to step on the
> beat? I'm trying desperately to follow, but it is
> agonizing to step: off the beat, off the beat, off the
> beat, on - just because theleader is doing so.
My $0.02: There are (at least) two sides to each lead and follow
problem.
Heads: Don't follow in agony! Dance to the music as best you
can. Ask yourself why you're dancing with this particular leader
in the first place.
Tails: If the answer to the 'why' question has one of your buzzwords in
it (eg. "art" or "handsome"), then the more accurately you follow the
more helpful you are to that leader. Even if the dance becomes total
hash, the leader should learn. Good leaders give you no option but to
do what they expect, sometimes in your own time, sometimes in theirs.
There's nothing wrong with making the leaders lead! If you back lead,
you'll look a little better but be giving all the wrong feedback to the
hapless leader. Then he will only be able to dance with beginners who
execute memorized patterns and after dancing with somebody who really
follows (but seems to not follow at all) he'll want to quit in
frustration. On the surface, the follower's role may seem passive but
never believe that! It is passive-aggressive to whatever degree the
follower's personality likes to push!
Back-lead for now (heads) or follow for the future (tails)?
Gotta run,
Frank in Mpls.
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:22:48 -0800
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: The lead
There are many styles, there are many ways to dance tango, every one has
his/her own way of doing it, they are all good.
I accept all of them as valid. Interesting variations of a very rich dance.
I would like to share with you my thoughts about the lead being conscious
that there may be many people that think differently.
As I move I take the lady with me. If I step to my side (left) I take my
partner with me.
I do not move first and then expect her to follow. I exert some minimal
pressure with my right arm on the left side of her thorax as I step to the
side.
I am then taking her with me it does not matter in what direction I move. We
move in synchrony as a unit.
The lady, good dancer perceives this direction of motion and reacts
immediately by stepping with her partner, she is "light" to dance with.
There are some women that are always a fraction of a second too late to
start moving. It feels as if you are forcibly placing her at every step,
they are "heavy" to dance with, they leave you exhausted. This is even worse
if they lean on you "downward".
The sequence of events before a step is taken is then, I decide in which
direction I am going to step (a mental process) I proceed to step and in
doing so I take the lady with me (a motor function). As I move my body
remains straight on its axis, I do *not lean the body in that direction and
then move my foot, *not at all, I move my vertical body at the same time as
I step taking with me my partner who is hypersensitive to its language and
therefore moves in perfect synchrony.
Even when I do a barrida (drag) and then lead her to drag my leg back or in
some other direction, even here there is a mental process to suggest her
that action, I think about it and suggest without leaning my body, without
moving it and only by allowing time and perhaps applying some minimal
pressure with my right hand on the left side of her thorax that I wish she
would drag my leg. This is done most frequently as a prelude to a "colgada"
for instance where one leads the lady to drag the leader's foot after "una
parada" (stop). The lady complies because she is experienced, conversant
with this language otherwise she will not follow.
In any case, at the most, the wait of the man being away from the lady the
hand pressure on her back suggests this motion without any body leaning. If
you doubt that she knows this language *do not use it!
A lead (IMO) then has several components some static (no motion) and some
dynamic (with motion).
Deciding in what direction to move or ask the lady to move (mental process),
then moving taking the lady at the same time (action) or applying a slight
pressure on her body to suggest a motion on her part (an action). The
movement of my upper body does not precede rather is synchronous with hers.
Somebody could argue that the mental process is not part of the lead. Think
that when your mind is not clear with respect to what you want to do the
lady perceives that immediately and becomes confused, they will say - " ...I
am sorry, I did not understand..?" thinking that it was her fault but you
know that it was that your mind was not decided as to what to do next.
**However there are times when an action for her to take is suggested by
both a pressure and a movement of the leader's body. Many times leaders
move their upper body to one side and then to the other to lead a change of
weight to the other leg during "balanceo" for instance.
Other times for instance when one leads a low boleo, here let's say, from
the cross one applies a downward motion to her body with the right hand at
the same time one *lowers the body. This cause her to extend her right leg
back now we do an oscillating movement with our body right and left so that
she performs a low boleo. The same happens when we lead a "planeo" (glide)
or when we wish to suggest that she extends her leg to the side. The lower
our body goes the lower she will extend her leg.
At times we hold her "up" to make sure she stays on one leg or to change her
axis to the other leg or to indicate that she should raise her leg and to
apply it to the side of our body such as in "Adagio" and other moves.
In summary the leader feels the music, decides how to make an interpretation
to that music, determines in which direction to move and then moves taking
the lady with him...or I am wrong?
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:55:02 -0300
From: SMC Administracion <adm@SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: The lead
Sergio wrote
" In summary the leader feels the music, decides how to make an
interpretation
to that music, determines in which direction to move and then moves taking
the lady with him...or I am wrong?
"
The sufis , are a school of thought that from ancient times have tried to
improve the human knowledge,
basically about ourselves and the "other" . They use tales to explain better
their thoughts .
I will change from this tale , the words "lover" to "leader", and
"beloved" to "follower".
The door that keeps closed is the tango music.
The leader knocks the door , at the other side the follower is waiting.
"Who´s there? " asks the follower.
"It´s I " says the leader.
The door keeps closed.
The leader knocks the door again.
"Who´s there? " asks the follower.
"It´s I" says the leader.
The door still keeps closed.
The door will only open when at the question of the follower " Who´s there
?"
The leader answers
" It´s you ".
*************
warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:37:28 -0700
From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: On the Beat
Dear Listeros, In watching people tango(including top level performance dancers), it would appear they don't always dance to the rhythm of the music. It appears that rhythm in tango is not always necessary. I have also noticed that because of the need for musicality and artistic interpretation, rhythm at times seems to get ignored. Yet there are those who insist that tango should always be danced rhythmically and always on the beat. I have thus far been unable to account for this seeming conundrum. Could anyone help me resolve this. Thanx Warm Regards Tango Guy
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:17:03 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Beat
Dear Tango guy:
The reason some men are off the beat is that they pay an inordinate amount of attention to figures, especially their own feet. They learned a figure and they will force it into the dance, regardless if there is space or the partner can follow it.
Michael
Wash, DC
--- Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
Dear Listeros, In watching people tango(including top level performance dancers), it would appear they don't always dance to the rhythm of the music. Could anyone help me resolve this. Thanx Warm Regards Tango Guy
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:40:33 -0700
From: a tango newbie <tangaux02@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Beat
Hi Tango guy et al,
I think it depends largely on the music. Take
Pugliese, for example--"La Mariposa" or even "La
Yumba" comes to my mind. Both have beats that are
extremely hard to miss, i.e. it's hard to NOT dance on
the beat for these.
At the same time, continually dancing on the (slow)
beat, beat, beat, beat can get...well, boring. The
music is not flat. The changes in tempo create
movement, a push and pull, tension and release. We
hear these flourishes, maybe they'll resonate with us
at that moment, and we feel a need to translate these
musical flourishes (or our feelings resulting from
them) into movement.
That doesn't come easy; it takes lots of time and
practice to develop such sensibilities. We work on
our basic steps and learn how to build on them; words
become sentences.
Also, I think listening to lots of tango music is key.
We become familiar with its basic structure, and we
also see the various approaches taken. For instance,
I've found it fun to listening to different versions
of the same song. My favorite is "El Choclo"; the
version by the Sexteto Mayor is quite a far cry from
the more straightforward version (by Villoldo? Is
that right?).
Having some sort of musical background helped me
coming in to tango. But I would be curious to know,
is it absolutely necessary? What are other people's
experiences with this?
Thanks,
ATN
--- Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Dear Listeros, In watching people tango(including
> top level performance dancers), it would appear they
> don't always dance to the rhythm of the music. It
> appears that rhythm in tango is not always
> necessary. I have also noticed that because of the
> need for musicality and artistic interpretation,
> rhythm at times seems to get ignored. Yet there are
> those who insist that tango should always be danced
> rhythmically and always on the beat. I have thus
> far been unable to account for this seeming
> conundrum. Could anyone help me resolve this. Thanx
> Warm Regards Tango Guy
>
>
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:23:50 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Beat
Tango Guy wrote:
>>>
Dear Listeros, In watching people tango(including top level performance
dancers), it would appear they don't always dance to the rhythm of the
music. It appears that rhythm in tango is not always necessary. I have also
noticed that because of the need for musicality and artistic interpretation,
rhythm at times seems to get ignored.
<<<
I recall a secondhand story, told by a post-beginner in Tango who had just
returned from a first trip to Buenos Aires. He said that, in a dance with a
very experienced Argentine tanguera, she said to him something like, "Do you
know, you are always dancing perfectly on the beat?" or something to that
effect. He assumed at the time she was giving him a compliment, but I
understand he now feels differently in the light of his greater
experience...
>>>
Yet there are those who insist that tango should always be danced
rhythmically and always on the beat.
I have thus far been unable to account for this seeming conundrum. Could
anyone help me resolve this.
<<<
Consensus on tango issues like this is very elusive, and may be a
contradiction in terms - developing an ability to integrate multiple
strongly opinionated perspectives on tango questions can be useful for tango
dancers. As a personalized example of how this happens: pick a song you
like, try both "always rhythmic" and "sometimes non-rhythmic" dancing, and
pick your favorite. And if your followers like it - then you get to have an
"expert opinion" too!
Have fun integrating,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
http://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:00:16 -0400
From: Ba Tango <rhink2@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: On The Beat
Hello Listeros,
This issue of dancing on the beat in tango is confusing. After being
around tango for over 10 years, I'm still not clear on it. This is what I
know about it:
Tangueros talk about dancing "ritmo" or dancing "compas". Both translate
roughly into English as "rhythm". The difference is perhaps most
evident in milonga. In this dance the follower dances ritmo (i.e.
on the beat). In effect the follower is keeping time, maybe with
embellishments, but always following the base line beat.
In contrast the leader may dance compas by introducing syncopations.
That is the leader may split the beat or fake a step. The movement
follows more the melody line.
It all works out, because when all is said and danced both are dancing
to the same music at the same tempo within the same rhythmic structure.
If anyone can shed more light on this question, please do. I'm still
confused.
Bob Hink
Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:39:21 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: On The Beat
In tango we dance the melodies and in other dances, i.e. ballroom dances we
dance to the beat. Dancing the melodies allows
improvisation/creativity,interpretation, and expression. Through
interpretation, it is also possible, from what I read, to dance the part of
a musical instrument that is not present. I am not at this level. I enjoy
tango for it allows me to express myself through the dance, the expression
possiblities seem unlimited. I guess that the challenge for me is what a
particular tango inspires me to dance. I heard Daniela Arcouri said that a
writer told her that tango has over 400 sources of inspiration.
Bruno
