85 To lead or not to lead
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:19:13 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: To lead or not to lead
--- JC Dill <tango@VO.CNCHOST.COM> wrote:
> How do you keep the follower from changing weight at
> the end of the second
> step when you step together and change weight? Do
> you give some special
> lead that indicates "I'm taking a step, but you
> shouldn't step with
> me"? Or do you just take your step (changing your
> weight) without
> transmitting a lead to your follower?
From the viewpoint of the leader, you have it
backwards. When the leader shifts his weight without
actively doing anything else, the follower can feel
it. This transmits a lead. Just taking a step does,
in fact, transmit a lead.
If the leader wants to take a step without
transmitting a lead, he must do something active to
prevent that spontaneous lead from being transmitted.
He must take measures to conceal the feeling of weight
shift, or he must send a message to "stay put". In
the cases of a carrousel and bridge it's even better,
in my opinion, to lead the woman's left foot into a
position (locked behind) that ensures she won't go
where the leader doesn't want her to. Leading a cross
basic similarly presents a challenge of preventing the
follower from mirroring the leader's syncopated step.
One way of concealing the weight shift is simply to
disconnect. Another is to "lift" on the right side
when putting the right foot down. Disconnecting works
when the leader wants to do some kind of footwork
around his partner. Lifting on the right side works
in the cross basic. Disconnecting isn't an option
with something like a carrousel or bridge, which
require a close connection.
Again, your recommendation that the leader simply step
without transmitting a lead implies that he took
special measures to conceal a lead! If he has a
connection and does nothing but simply step... he has
led!
Mark
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:44:59 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
Heated discussion about such simple thing as Cross is because this is the
place where all the theories, approaches, historical views, achievements,
and mistakes cross. "Corner-Cross" so to speak.
To lead or not to lead depends on what goals one puts for himself.
If you ok with so-so dancing - memorize the pattern and be done with it.
If you want to reach the Great Depth of Tango Ecstasy learn to lead cross
always and never step into cross if not led.
Igor Polk
PS.. I do not want to elaborate much about "how to lead to cross" in front
of the Learned ones.
I just want to mention that "Lead to Cross Starts on the Step 3 of Basic"..
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>, tango-L@mit.edu
There are at least four guys that I dance with here
and in BsAs who never dance the cross, so all those
women who are automatically crossing "at the 5 of the
'Basic 8" are going to be in for some stumbles. There
is a lead for the cross. When I get it, I do it. .
Many guys, failing to get me to do an auto cross, lift
their right shoulder to get me to move. A slight
contra body movement would do it without the strain.
Of course, they are the ones who are accustomed to the
auto-cross followers. And many followers auto-cross
because the leaders don't give them that extra beat to
make their cross.
Hector at Nino Bien and Lo de Celia starts a lead to
a cross and then makes me do a small, tight boleo
around my own right foot.. using the momentum of my
movement just as he would any other boleo.
But what do I know? I am only a follower.
Nancy
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Heated discussion about such simple thing as Cross
> is because this is the
> place where all the theories, approaches, historical
> views, achievements,
> and mistakes cross. "Corner-Cross" so to speak.
>
> To lead or not to lead depends on what goals one
> puts for himself.
>
> If you ok with so-so dancing - memorize the pattern
> and be done with it.
> If you want to reach the Great Depth of Tango
> Ecstasy learn to lead cross
> always and never step into cross if not led.
>
> Igor Polk
> PS.. I do not want to elaborate much about "how to
> lead to cross" in front
> of the Learned ones.
> I just want to mention that "Lead to Cross Starts on
> the Step 3 of Basic"..
>
>
>
>
>
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Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:37:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
To: tango-l list <tango-l@mit.edu>
A cross, which can happen in many, many situations and in many ways, is for me, as a man, the most beautiful and sensual moment in tango if done well. I absolutely love it when a woman allows me to co-design it, because then I can play with it, with its many elements. It is a moment of absolute unification of the two dancers - it is a bliss of tango for me, the most magical moment in its simple and yet so extraordinary beauty. Yes, you guessed it, I could go on and on talking about it, but I'd rather dance it. Anyone?
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 18:04:09 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hey Nancy,
NANCY wrote:
> Hector at Nino Bien and Lo de Celia starts a lead to
> a cross and then makes me do a small, tight boleo
> around my own right foot.. using the momentum of my
> movement just as he would any other boleo.
If this involves, so to speak, only the "unwrapping" part of a boleo,
you could also call it a simple enrosque. That's what I call it, anyway,
when I lead these during back ochos by starting the pivot before the
lady's leg has caught up. (To clarify: usually her free leg rides around
"outside" her support during a pivot. If she's led to collect her free
leg on the _other_ side, the "inside" of her support during a pivot, I
call it an "enrosque." That, anyway, is what you can call it when the
dude does it.)
(Perhaps a "behind" enrosque, as it travels behind the pivot.)
Some people do these without a lead, during ochos, as an embellishment--
albeit they tend to be kicky rather than silky. That, however, takes all
the fun out of it for me.
In any case, ladies who cross automatically usually must undergo a small
adjustment to make what Nancy speaks of (if I understand her right)
available & expressive in their dance. And that adjustment amounts to,
well, _not_ crossing automatically...
To do what I speak of, they have to not _pivot_ automatically. And not
collect automatically.
Short version-- It gets more ticklish when you really follow.
Jake
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:08:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Thanks, Nancy, for addressing what actually happens. It's
nice to know that the men will adjust. I had gotten the
impression that they wouldn't or that they'd think "those
foreigners can't dance!" or something like that.
Any other observations along those lines from anyone else?
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There are at least four guys that I dance with here
> and in BsAs who never dance the cross, so all those
> women who are automatically crossing "at the 5 of the
> 'Basic 8" are going to be in for some stumbles. There
> is a lead for the cross. When I get it, I do it. .
> Many guys, failing to get me to do an auto cross, lift
> their right shoulder to get me to move. A slight
> contra body movement would do it without the strain.
> Of course, they are the ones who are accustomed to the
> auto-cross followers. And many followers auto-cross
> because the leaders don't give them that extra beat to
> make their cross.
>
> Hector at Nino Bien and Lo de Celia starts a lead to
> a cross and then makes me do a small, tight boleo
> around my own right foot.. using the momentum of my
> movement just as he would any other boleo.
>
> But what do I know? I am only a follower.
>
> Nancy
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
http://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:40:18 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead the cross
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I think that most tango dancers do not lead the cross in tango or vals but
almost always lead it in milonga.
Most instructors will teach that when you walk in front of the woman or
"outside"to her left she does not cross but as soon as you walk "inside" to
her right, she crosses automatically, by default.
If you do not wish her to cross, then you prevent her from crossing buy
placing your left foot by her left foot. In this instance she will step back
instead of crossing. You may continue walking in this fashion for several
steps.
If you want to lead the cross in tango you may do so, and this does not
interfere at all with the dance. All you need to do is at step # 4 of the
base, you walk slightly diagonally away from the lady and turn your chest
slightly from your right to straight to the LOD (as described by somebody
before).
Milonga has a basic step where the woman does not cross so normally one has
to lead the cross in milonga.
Summary: Most people do not lead the cross in tango or vals but they do it
in milonga.
You may lead the cross in tango if you wish to do it for any
specific reason.
Most people lead the embellishments, such as boleos, amagues, ganchos, etc.
They even lead the type of boleo : high or low, etc. at times the leader
only allows time so that the woman can express herself the way she wishes as
well. Others may dance in a different way.
A few women will ask for extra time to express themselves by exerting a very
slight pressure on the man's rt. arm.
There are many ways to dance tango.
Best regards, Sergio
A new home for Mom, no cleanup required. All starts here.
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:33:57 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead the cross
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Dear All,
Leading the cross is certainly an interesting subject.
Manuel and Huck are adherents of Gustavob s theory that the first 5 steps of the 8CB, up to and including the cross, follow the
code of the Giro to left. As a result, at the time of the cross, the lady will turn her hips a little to the right and this is how Gustavo
teaches it. He specifically states that for the woman to turn to the left is wrong, as this is contrary to the code of the Giro.
But, recently, Christopher and Sergio have both stated that to cross is best led by a body turn to the left.
Can I ask how Manuel and Huck lead the cross and whether they think, like Gustavo, that Christopher and Sergio are
wrong? Or, are there many ways to lead the cross and Gustavo's theory is not set in stone?
Keith, HK
On Sat Aug 25 23:40 , "Sergio Vandekier" sent:
>
>If you want to lead the cross in tango you may do so, and this does not
>interfere at all with the dance. All you need to do is at step # 4 of the
>base, you walk slightly diagonally away from the lady and turn your chest
>slightly from your right to straight to the LOD (as described by somebody
>before).
>
>>
>There are many ways to dance tango.
>
>Best regards, Sergio
Christopher writes on 24 August:
If he twists his spine so that his chest points a bit to the
right of the LOD at an angle, then she need not cross to keep
the frame. In that situation, I would expect her to twist her
to the right so our chests remain parallel while she walks in
the direction I lead. If so, when she steps back with her
right leg, it will open a bit, and when she steps back with
her left leg, she will cross in back a bit.
If the man should decide he does after all want her to cross,
then all he has to do is untwist his spine so that it points
directly down the LOD again, and she must cross to stay in
the frame.
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 17:15:17 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead the cross
To: keith@tangohk.com, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
There's no disagreement. Counts 3 to 6 of the 8CD are certainly a
variation on back, open, front, side.
Christopher
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:33:57 -0400, "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com> said:
> Dear All,
>
> Leading the cross is certainly an interesting subject.
>
> Manuel and Huck are adherents of Gustavo???s theory that the first 5
> steps of the 8CB, up to and including the cross, follow the
> code of the Giro to left. As a result, at the time of the cross, the
> lady will turn her hips a little to the right and this is how Gustavo
> teaches it. He specifically states that for the woman to turn to the
> left is wrong, as this is contrary to the code of the Giro.
>
> But, recently, Christopher and Sergio have both stated that to cross is
> best led by a body turn to the left.
>
> Can I ask how Manuel and Huck lead the cross and whether they think,
> like Gustavo, that Christopher and Sergio are
> wrong? Or, are there many ways to lead the cross and Gustavo's theory is
> not set in stone?
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
> On Sat Aug 25 23:40 , "Sergio Vandekier" sent:
>
> >
> >If you want to lead the cross in tango you may do so, and this does not
> >interfere at all with the dance. All you need to do is at step # 4 of the
> >base, you walk slightly diagonally away from the lady and turn your chest
> >slightly from your right to straight to the LOD (as described by somebody
> >before).
> >
> >>
> >There are many ways to dance tango.
> >
> >Best regards, Sergio
>
>
> Christopher writes on 24 August:
>
> If he twists his spine so that his chest points a bit to the
> right of the LOD at an angle, then she need not cross to keep
> the frame. In that situation, I would expect her to twist her
> to the right so our chests remain parallel while she walks in
> the direction I lead. If so, when she steps back with her
> right leg, it will open a bit, and when she steps back with
> her left leg, she will cross in back a bit.
>
> If the man should decide he does after all want her to cross,
> then all he has to do is untwist his spine so that it points
> directly down the LOD again, and she must cross to stay in
> the frame.
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 03:03:56 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead the cross
To: keith@tangohk.com, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>,
ceverett@ceverett.com
Christopher,
I hate to repeat myself but the LF foot cross of the Giro to left requires a woman's hip-turn to right. Your
description of step 5 of the 8CB has a woman's hip-turn to left. That's not just a variation but a completely
different step and destroys Gustavo's theory that the 8CB follows the same code as a Giro to left.
Gustavo says, quite forcefully, that your method of leading step 5 of the 8CB is WRONG. I still have the video - he
slaps his fist into his palm and says your method will cause the couple to collide and puts them in a position that is
very difficult to get out of.
Now, I can understand your reticence at being at odds with Gustavo, but just saying ... "There's no disagreement"
won't make it go away. You're going to have to do better than that.
Keith, HK
On Sun Aug 26 6:15 , ceverett@ceverett.com sent:
>There's no disagreement. Counts 3 to 6 of the 8CD are certainly a
>variation on back, open, front, side.
>
>Christopher
>
>On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:33:57 -0400, "Keith" keith@tangohk.com> said:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> Leading the cross is certainly an interesting subject.
>>
>> Manuel and Huck are adherents of Gustavo???s theory that the first 5
>> steps of the 8CB, up to and including the cross, follow the
>> code of the Giro to left. As a result, at the time of the cross, the
>> lady will turn her hips a little to the right and this is how Gustavo
>> teaches it. He specifically states that for the woman to turn to the
>> left is wrong, as this is contrary to the code of the Giro.
>>
>> But, recently, Christopher and Sergio have both stated that to cross is
>> best led by a body turn to the left.
>>
>> Can I ask how Manuel and Huck lead the cross and whether they think,
>> like Gustavo, that Christopher and Sergio are
>> wrong? Or, are there many ways to lead the cross and Gustavo's theory is
>> not set in stone?
>>
>> Keith, HK
>>
>>
>> On Sat Aug 25 23:40 , "Sergio Vandekier" sent:
>>
>> >
>> >If you want to lead the cross in tango you may do so, and this does not
>> >interfere at all with the dance. All you need to do is at step # 4 of the
>> >base, you walk slightly diagonally away from the lady and turn your chest
>> >slightly from your right to straight to the LOD (as described by somebody
>> >before).
>> >
>> >>
>> >There are many ways to dance tango.
>> >
>> >Best regards, Sergio
>>
>>
>> Christopher writes on 24 August:
>>
>> If he twists his spine so that his chest points a bit to the
>> right of the LOD at an angle, then she need not cross to keep
>> the frame. In that situation, I would expect her to twist her
>> to the right so our chests remain parallel while she walks in
>> the direction I lead. If so, when she steps back with her
>> right leg, it will open a bit, and when she steps back with
>> her left leg, she will cross in back a bit.
>>
>> If the man should decide he does after all want her to cross,
>> then all he has to do is untwist his spine so that it points
>> directly down the LOD again, and she must cross to stay in
>> the frame.
>>
>>
>>
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 13:46:43 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead the cross
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Not having Gustavo's tape, I'm not in a position to answer directly. So
I'm not going to argue about whether I or Gustavo am correct. And
moreover, in tango there are usually many ways to skin the cat. Some
meed the standard, some don't. Anyway, Gustavo can only speak for his
dance. It's a mighty fine dance he's got, though.
And, I can only speak for my dance:
However, in doing the count 5 of the 8CB and the front cross of a giro
in close embrace, the follower's hip motion is almost the same, the
difference being that with the giro the preceding step is 100% to the
side, and with the 8CB, the preceding step is 100% to the back.
I have not stated that there is a man's body turn to the left. What I
have stated is that one twists the spine to the right ... I did forget
to state that the hips stay pointed in the same direction as the LOD.
This displaces the woman to the right.
On step 4 of the 8CB in the normal system the way I do it in close,
three (of many) possibilities are:
A) exactly where it would be if just walking with the follower in front
of me.
B) one foots-width to the left of item A above
C) one foots-width to the right of item A above
Now remember, I've placed the follower about 4 inches to my right with a
bit of torso twist. If I take option B, and untwist my torso, the
follower must cross to keep the frame ... the lead is so clear that even
beginners catch it. If I take option C, and keep the torso twist, then
I completely take the option to cross away from the woman, the frame
won't permit it, and my left foot is in the way as well (best is if I
touch my left foot to her left foot, as yet a thirt "Don't cross!"
signal). Option A lies in the territory between "Yes, do cross!" and
"No, don't cross", so one oughtn't do it.
I myself have seen no problems with followers having a hard time exiting
>from the cross the way I lead it, nor do I think my teacher would stop
twisting my balls about it until such problems went away. And, I would
expect her to be very familiar with the issues at hand ... she was
around when Chicho started working with Fabian and Gustavo. One the
very first things she started working with me on was the lead to the
cross, and then she had me work on the double-time cross in cross foot
system coming out of half turns to the right and left a la Tete.
Christopher
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 03:03:56 -0400, "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com> said:
> Christopher,
>
> I hate to repeat myself but the LF foot cross of the Giro to left
> requires a woman's hip-turn to right. Your
> description of step 5 of the 8CB has a woman's hip-turn to left. That's
> not just a variation but a completely
> different step and destroys Gustavo's theory that the 8CB follows the
> same code as a Giro to left.
>
> Gustavo says, quite forcefully, that your method of leading step 5 of
> the 8CB is WRONG. I still have the video - he
> slaps his fist into his palm and says your method will cause the couple
> to collide and puts them in a position that is
> very difficult to get out of.
>
> Now, I can understand your reticence at being at odds with Gustavo, but
> just saying ... "There's no disagreement"
> won't make it go away. You're going to have to do better than that.
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
> On Sun Aug 26 6:15 , ceverett@ceverett.com sent:
>
> >There's no disagreement. Counts 3 to 6 of the 8CD are certainly a
> >variation on back, open, front, side.
> >
> >Christopher
> >
> >On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:33:57 -0400, "Keith" keith@tangohk.com> said:
> >> Dear All,
> >>
> >> Leading the cross is certainly an interesting subject.
> >>
> >> Manuel and Huck are adherents of Gustavo???s theory that the first 5
> >> steps of the 8CB, up to and including the cross, follow the
> >> code of the Giro to left. As a result, at the time of the cross, the
> >> lady will turn her hips a little to the right and this is how Gustavo
> >> teaches it. He specifically states that for the woman to turn to the
> >> left is wrong, as this is contrary to the code of the Giro.
> >>
> >> But, recently, Christopher and Sergio have both stated that to cross is
> >> best led by a body turn to the left.
> >>
> >> Can I ask how Manuel and Huck lead the cross and whether they think,
> >> like Gustavo, that Christopher and Sergio are
> >> wrong? Or, are there many ways to lead the cross and Gustavo's theory is
> >> not set in stone?
> >>
> >> Keith, HK
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat Aug 25 23:40 , "Sergio Vandekier" sent:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >If you want to lead the cross in tango you may do so, and this does not
> >> >interfere at all with the dance. All you need to do is at step # 4 of the
> >> >base, you walk slightly diagonally away from the lady and turn your chest
> >> >slightly from your right to straight to the LOD (as described by somebody
> >> >before).
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >There are many ways to dance tango.
> >> >
> >> >Best regards, Sergio
> >>
> >>
> >> Christopher writes on 24 August:
> >>
> >> If he twists his spine so that his chest points a bit to the
> >> right of the LOD at an angle, then she need not cross to keep
> >> the frame. In that situation, I would expect her to twist her
> >> to the right so our chests remain parallel while she walks in
> >> the direction I lead. If so, when she steps back with her
> >> right leg, it will open a bit, and when she steps back with
> >> her left leg, she will cross in back a bit.
> >>
> >> If the man should decide he does after all want her to cross,
> >> then all he has to do is untwist his spine so that it points
> >> directly down the LOD again, and she must cross to stay in
> >> the frame.
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:57:11 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
To: "Dubravko Kakarigi" <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>, "tango-l list"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
I understand and agree, Dubravko. However, the worst part is when the woman rushes it. I can understand if the man rushes the lead. However, there's no good excuse to lead nor follow a rushed cross when the music is a S-L-O-W sensusal DiSarli. My favorite DiSarli, El Jaguel, is so slow and emotional, it defies anyone to rush.
Another example of a rushed step is the stepover. This is an opportunity for the woman to play with the music (and the man). However, so many women just step over the foot like it's an obstacle on the sidewalk. Too many dancers concentrate on the "what" and not enough on the "how."
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Danced in NY last night then took Greyhound home at 3:45 AM. What I put myself through for tango. My parents will never understand.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
A cross, which can happen in many, many situations and in many ways, is for me, as a man, the most beautiful and sensual moment in tango if done well. I absolutely love it when a woman allows me to co-design it, because then I can play with it, with its many elements. It is a moment of absolute unification of the two dancers - it is a bliss of tango for me, the most magical moment in its simple and yet so extraordinary beauty. Yes, you guessed it, I could go on and on talking about it, but I'd rather dance it. Anyone?
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 15:08:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
To: tango-l list <tango-l@mit.edu>
You can use suspension to slow her down.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
> I understand and agree, Dubravko. However, the worst part
> is when the woman rushes it. I can understand if the man
> rushes the lead. However, there's no good excuse to lead
> nor follow a rushed cross when the music is a S-L-O-W
> sensusal DiSarli. My favorite DiSarli, El Jaguel, is so
> slow and emotional, it defies anyone to rush.
>
> Another example of a rushed step is the stepover. This is
> an opportunity for the woman to play with the music (and
> the man). However, so many women just step over the foot
> like it's an obstacle on the sidewalk. Too many dancers
> concentrate on the "what" and not enough on the "how."
>
> Michael Ditkoff
> Washington, DC
> Danced in NY last night then took Greyhound home at 3:45
> AM. What I put myself through for tango. My parents will
> never understand.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dubravko Kakarigi" <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
> To: "tango-l list" <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 5:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
>
>
> A cross, which can happen in many, many situations and in
> many ways, is for me, as a man, the most beautiful and
> sensual moment in tango if done well. I absolutely love
> it when a woman allows me to co-design it, because then I
> can play with it, with its many elements. It is a moment
> of absolute unification of the two dancers - it is a
> bliss of tango for me, the most magical moment in its
> simple and yet so extraordinary beauty. Yes, you guessed
> it, I could go on and on talking about it, but I'd rather
> dance it. Anyone?
>
> ===================================
> seek, appreciate, and create beauty
> this life is not a rehearsal
> ===================================
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
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Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 15:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
A few thoughts?
Here?s the terminology I?ve used for years in teaching and
discussions.
Outside Partner: Man is on the woman?s right side.
Inline: Man is directly facing the woman.
Inside Partner: Man is on the woman?s left side.
Some people are reasoning that if the cross happens
automatically in outside partner, then it should happen
automatically in inside partner. Except that doesn?t
consider the woman?s comfort (if she ain?t comfortable, it
ain?t gonna? happen), which differs because of the
asymmetry of the embrace, as a several people have noted.
The molinete is a woman?s default, which takes years for
her to do really well (at least 5 years, I?d say to get a
good one), which opens doors to more possibilities than
having each step being led (which really doesn?t happen,
anyway). Changing or adjusting the default is not that
difficult if the man pays attention to timing and her hip
position.
I?ve tested in open embrace (demonstrating it in beginning
classes) that completely novice women will usually
automatically do back-open-front if the man asks for
molinete that begins with a back step/cross. If you start
her on a front step, she?s likely to continue doing forward
steps around you. If you start her on a side step (unless
you?re using it to set up a back step), she?s again likely
to go forward. Left to their own devices, women won?t do a
clean side step during a molinete, which is critical to a
good back step. Hence, their tendency toward forward
steps.
What?s interesting, though, is that her natural tendency
during her front step of the giro and the first time she?s
invited to a cross (whether it?s the ocho cortado or a led
8CB) will be to turn her hips away and then pivot back
toward her partner. So, what she needs to learn for the
cross is to not pivot her hips away from her partner and to
remain on one foot (she?ll normally want to revert to a
balanced 2-leg stance). This will also keep her in time to
the music.
So in a salida, what causes me to cross or not cross?
Quite simply, in step 4, the bottom part of my right hip is
taken past my left hip as I extend backwards, and if my
left hip is not allowed to "catch up" with my right hip, I
either cross or kick myself. The man doesn?t even need to
turn his shoulders toward his left. If my left hip is
allowed to "catch up" with my right, I continue walking
straight back. That?s my current analysis anyway.
In my favorite invitation to cross (which is in
close-embrace), the man uses a slight lifting of his chest
(like taking a breath) to gently lift my left leg and moves
ever slightly to place it into the cross. From there he
can shift my weight (like an exhale) or not, as he pleases.
Perfect for my favorite orchestra of DiSarli, though I'm
loving D'Agostino/Vargas more and more.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
http://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:08:43 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
Trini,
This is also my favourite lead for the cross as it has no ambiguity
and the woman doesn't need to 'interpret' the lead. For this reason,
I find it works well with beginners. But I know that some women prefer
a slight body turn and I'd be interested to hear from other experienced
followers on how they like the cross to be led.
Keith, HK
On Mon Aug 27 6:38 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>A few thoughts?
>
>
>In my favorite invitation to cross (which is in
>close-embrace), the man uses a slight lifting of his chest
>(like taking a breath) to gently lift my left leg and moves
>ever slightly to place it into the cross. From there he
>can shift my weight (like an exhale) or not, as he pleases.
> Perfect for my favorite orchestra of DiSarli, though I'm
>loving D'Agostino/Vargas more and more.
>
>Trini de Pittsburgh
>
