208  Live

ARTICLE INDEX


Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:32:52 -0700
From: "Larry E. Carroll" <larrydla@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Live

I thought of staying home from work today.

I thought of not going dancing in the upcoming milongas.

But if I did that they would have beaten me. So I went to work,
and did my best.

And I'm going to dress my best, no mourning clothes, and dance
this week and weekend. And I will have a good time. I will not
be beaten.

Meet me there.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla




Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:22:30 -0600
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Live band or not

To the list members,

From the discussion of live bands vs. recorded music, this new comer has
another question which is a spin-off from my earlier question on dancing to
the music.

In a nutshell: as all live bands have their freedom to interpret music their
own ways, and as a lot of tango music has the uniqueness of combining
different tempo and feeling within the same piece, is it more difficult to
dance to live bands?

Here we are on the floor, the lead is interpreting the music-- thus setting
the tone of the dance (assuming he knows the tune), his mood, and he is
ready to interact with his partner's dance ability, his partner's mood, his
partner's musicality and alas, while responding to the floor traffic. All
impromptu. There are even talks about arriving zen elation from dancing
tango....

But what if the band interprets the music differently, so that at any
anticipated moment, be it a melody, a beat or the transitional bridge, when
both dancers are about to enjoy each other, the band switches their
interpreation on the tempo; would the dancers be disappointed? I was.

I love live bands performances in general, but I notice the more "regularly
rhythmic" the tune is played by the band, the easier for the dancers.
However, after a whole night of Pugliese-ized music, would that be a bit
monotonous?

Bibi (Chicago)




>dancers that drive the creation of truly great
>dance orchestras.

>This might be true because we are so used
>to music coming from a box that we forget that there are real people
>playing and we must include the musicians in our enjoyment by letting
>them know, in more ways than just enjoying our dance, that they are a
>significant source of the joy of our evening. If they play at concerts
>they are applauded by hundreds of people who pay handsomely for the
>pleasure of only listening. There is a synergy that can exist between
>dancers and musicians but it is difficult to develop the sense of it if
>we mostly dance to recorded music.
>






Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:55:16 -0900
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Live band or not

Bibi asks:


"{But what if the band interprets the music differently, so that at any
anticipated moment, be it a melody, a beat or the transitional bridge, when
both dancers are about to enjoy each other, the band switches their
interpreation on the tempo; would the dancers be disappointed? I was."}

This brings up the interesting point of "anticipated moment". Is the moment
"anticipated" because the dancers are thinking of a recorded version of the
song the live band is playing, and when the live band does something else,
this unsettles the dancers? To me this is sad.

When live music is playing, we cannot rely on our memory to dance from - we
have to dance in the moment. We cannot expect or anticipate anything. We
have to really sink into the feeling of the music and try to let the music
pull us along, rather than try to anticipate it. It is just this feeling
that I so love about dancing to live music. I just read the note Robert
Hauk wrote about all this, and he mentions the band at the TangoFest
recently. I really appreciate Robert's note and his unwavering, self-less
commitment to building dance communities, but I want to address something
different here.

I, too, crave the magic of the dance bands from the 30's and 40's. That
said, at the TangoFest, I had some of the very best dances of my life to the
live band. I also had many great dances at Denver on Labor Day to the band
that played there. Frankly, I was surprised, at both of these events, by
the lack of enthusiasm for the music that I heard from some people. I loved
the live music and so did my partners. But how many people really listened
to the music, really took the time to get a feeling for what they were
creating? Before I could dance, I stood right near the stage listening
intently and watching each musician play and how they interacted, for at
least 2 or 3 full songs. Only then did I feel I was prepared to dance. I
noticed that a few other dancers did the same and it showed in their dancing
and in the look on their partners' faces. One of them turned out to be
quite new to tango, and he was really swept away by the music and he said he
had some great dances. (This tells me that the beginners DO have a chance
to enjoy this music and that perhaps we might want to consider changing our
teaching around somehow to help them out more.) Once in awhile, we'd go
back to the stage and just sit and soak up the feeling of the music. By the
end of the night it felt as if we were playing music with the band, that our
dancing was an extension of what they were creating. The other dancers who
were paying attention felt the same. We got deeper and more immersed in
their sound. It was incredible and I left the live milonga at the TangoFest
with a very electric feeling running through my body. I really feel that we
need these kinds of opportunities and I hope I'm not the only one who got
high by this music.

Somehow, if the dancing community is going to really appreciate live music,
we must understand that what we do is an extension of the music, and not the
other way around. We have to make a concerted effort to understand the
music we're dancing to and not come into the event with a pre-conceived idea
of what we're going to do. We have to prepare ourselves to have a dialogue
with the musicians. If we truly know how to walk and pause, that is all we
need to dance to live music. However, if we don't really understand how to
take exactly one quality step at a time so that we can react to tempo
changes and such, we will not be able to dance to live music. If we don't
appreciate the fact that a LOT of dancing can take place in between steps,
we're going to continue having difficulty dancing to the slower, lush music.
It won't work. If we don't make an attempt to really connect deeply with
our partners and the music, it won't work. If we consider dancing to be a
cal esthetic exercise only rather than a dialogue with the musicians, we
send the message to the musicians that we don't care what they play. If we
feel strongly about this, we need to provide useful, honest feedback to the
organizers of these events as well. These people generally have a big
interest in improving their events and are very eager to get feedback.

Like I said, I'm with a lot of people who crave the magic of the sound that
the great dance bands of the 30's and 40's made. But we need to grow with
the musicians we have now and make an attempt to meet them in the middle.
We need to get a feel for what is quality music and what is not quality
music, and encourage those who play quality music to keep doing what they're
doing, but with a constant stream of positive feedback and a real attempt on
our part to understand and appreciate their music. We may need to change
our instructing around a little bit to help this all out. Think about it.
We need to be sure we're thinking with an open mind. We need to all work
together to make the magic happen.

Many great dances to everyone -

Dan




Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:01:57 -0500
From: Patricia Thompson <alaskatango@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: A Dance to Live

Friends~

In my musings about Argentine Tango today, this thought formed in my mind:

Some of us 'Live to Dance'.

Argentine Tango is a 'Dance you Live'!

Wishing you all many wonderful tangos~

Patricia of Anchorage
--









Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:53:10 -0700
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Tango a safe place to live dangerously - Real Men III

I received many private mails in reference to our discussion on two
subjects, "Real Men" and "Is Tango Evolving".
I was surprised to see that they prefer a private discussion rather the
public forum.
Most correspondents express the idea that they lost interest in our Tango
List long ago due to the platitude and narrow-mindness of the usual
correspondents.

It seems that many of them prefer their "small circle" of friends
discussions. They work on their own web pages, newsletters and tango
publications. I have felt the same way for a long time but with certain
regret.
Despite this it is obvious that most of us still read this list as
frequently as we can and are somewhat disillusioned when we do not find
anything of interest.

Returning to my note on "Real Men" and the subsequent discussions (which
will appear in the winter edition of the specialized tango magazine from
London called "El Once"), I had written it in reference to tango and nothing
other than tango. Many of the correspondents on the other hand thought of it
as a metaphor for real life. From that perspective life gives birth to tango
and tango gives birth to life.

I would like to share with you one such note sent by Brian Rosino from
Modern Muse (Denver Colorado).

"Tango: A Safe Place To Live Dangerously
Roger Ebert reviewed Carlos Saura's film Tango, and said, "The tango is
based on suspicion, sex and insincerity. It is not a dance for virgins. It
is
for the wounded and the wary." To say that Tango is a passionate dance is an
understatement. It may be that Roger has a fear of deep feelings, whether
those feelings include insincerity or suspicion is a matter of your
perspective. Sex, as in all life, is a major aspect. It is no surprise to me
that Tango has become so popular around the world and especially the United
States. Like any art it is a reflection of a cultural "what's next"-what's
emerging from the collective unconscious? So what draws us to tango? Do we
really know? Bueno Aires teacher Graciela Gonzalez says, "Tango attracts
divorced or single people in their thirties, because of the element of
physical contact and romance." She says, "Tango has very clear roles. It is
neither sexist, nor feminist. I believe it brings us back to the sources."
(Our core sexual essence, male or female). Now I think she's on to
something.
Men have to be masculine and women feminine-"without fighting." That's
safe. Passion and romance-obvious polarity (sparks) between the sexes-in a
controlled social environment. The man leads, the woman follows. The man
takes care of the woman and makes her look good and feel good. He navigates,
like a ship on the vast feminine ocean. The woman gives up her masculine
control. She responds, reacts to the subtleties of the man's lead. His
masculine qualities of confidence, poise and direction inspires her feminine
qualities. There you have it-polarization, passion, sex. What if Tango is a
metaphor for life? What if tango says that our society of whining, wimpy men
should be finished exploring their feminine side and stop being afraid of
the
responsibility of taking care of a woman the way women deserve to be taken
care of? To take such good care of her with unwavering intention and
integrity that she is inspired to trust enough to let go of her own
masculine
protection and independence. In the dance, the woman must trust the man's
masculine direction more than her own. It's not that difficult. What about
everyday life? Holy shit, what a challenge for the man-scary proposition for
the woman. If we want to restore passion to our relationships, it's the
direction we should be headed. . Or should we settle for Tango two or
three times a week? Until we move
to the next stage of evolution in our relationships between men and women,
tango will be based on suspicion, and insincerity. It will be for the
wounded and the wary, for the little boys and their mommies. A friend of
mine
says Tango suffers from "Weenie Dude" syndrome. In a majority of cases, the
men who are the best on the dance floor are the last to step up to the plate
in everyday life to take care of a woman. That's too dangerous. The guys
that
make an effort to lead in life take longer to learn the dance....they have
less time. One thing is for sure, the dance will always be based on sex.
Copyright, Brian Rosino from Modern Muse




Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:39:07 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango a safe place to live dangerously - Real Men III

>Tango suffers from "Weenie Dude" syndrome. In a majority of cases, the
> men who are the best on the dance floor are the last to step up to the

plate

> in everyday life to take care of a woman.

I guess I would have to say that for me tango has nothing to do with "taking
care" of people. Personally, I think it would be presumptuous of me to
assume the "care taker" or "paternal" role with anyone other than my own
children (and only until they grow up). Actually, the quote from Roger Ebert
"The tango is based on suspicion, sex and insincerity. It is not a dance for
virgins. It is
for the wounded and the wary." is quite on the mark. Of course, it is also
much more. One need to be wounded or wary to love and enjoy the tango, but
many tangueros and tangueras do fit that description.

I don't think that it is my place to assume some sort of "care taking",
heroic role just because I want to dance tango. I've danced with lots of
different women and I cannot think they ever wanted me to become their
protector or care taker. The only obligation I have is to treat my dance
partners with due care and respect. The only caretaking I must do is to make
sure they are not in danger of collisions or physical damage. I think the
vast majority of women I've met are much more comfortable in the knowledge
and confidence that they are quite capable of taking care of themselves and
need no man to handle their lives.

Manuel




Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 12:51:13 EST
From: Champagne Tango <ChampagneTango@AOL.COM>
Subject: NA/E Mardi Gras Milonga in Virginia with live music

Mar. 3, Monday.
Cecilia’s Restaurant, Mardi Gras Party, Live music by Champagne Tango
Orchestra. 8pm-midnight. $15 admission includes 2 drink tickets,
refreshments.
Dress in something colorful & flamboyant — no black allowed!
Cecilia's Nightclub, 2619 Columbia Pike, Arlington, VA 22204  703-685-0790




Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:31:07 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Live, traditional, and non-tango co-existing peacefully

This past weekend I attended an event that featured two nights of
dancing to live and recorded music. The live musicians are interested
in playing music for dancers and put a good effort forward in that
direction and I enjoyed dancing to them. The support they got from the
dancers will surely foster more effort in the future for them to get
better at playing for dancers. It's a supportive, fun, win-win
situation. The DJs played a variety of music, including some
non-traditional pieces at appropriate times - they were firmly focused
on pleasing the dancers rather than showing off their music collections.
There were 2 all-night milongas back-to-back..I walked back to my car
both mornings in full sunlight with the birds chirping - the tango El
Amanecer came crisply to mind. Both DJs played great traditional and
non-traditional music, very tastefully. Dancers from all over North
America, a few from Europe, etc. attended and had a fabulous time.

Live, traditional, and non-traditional music was blended tastefully
together in perfect peace and fine taste.

These DJs understand their art and know how to manage the energy of the
room. They know that people who dance tango more often than they write
on the internet like great TANGO music. They know IF, when, and where
to play non-traditional tangos. They don't play anything but first-rate
tango music unless there is a very good reason to do otherwise. When
the milonga stretches out for 8+ hours, there is room for creativity.
Taking the music played from 4-6am in these kinds of milongas out of
context, into the shorter regular milongas is not appropriate.

I wish more DJs and internet jockeys (IJs) would understand this.

Just for the record, the handful of alternative-music dances that pop up
from time to time are specifically advertised as such. That way, the
dancers know what to expect. I don't see any problems with this at all.
However, when I go to a dance that is advertised as being an Argentine
tango milonga, I expect to hear Argentine tango dance music, period.
Don't try to impress me with a bunch of European pop, Piazzolla, and
Hugo Diaz. These are specials. An entire evening of this is not
special, it's inappropriate.

Dan Boccia
Anchorage




Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:03:19 +0800
From: Donald Hsu <donaldhsu@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Dancing in London and Liverpool

I will be in London and near Merseyside during the
week of 7 September and would appreciate any
suggestion on where to dance tango.

Thank you in advance.

Donald
from Hong Kong






Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:52:24 EDT
From: Alieduo03@AOL.COM
Subject: NA-E Live music fundraising in Washington DC

Nueva Vida. Support Network for Latinas with Cancer
Invites
“Tango por la Vida”
Alicia Bokser - Piano
Eduardo Fernandez- Bandoneon
Dance demonstration
Wednesday, October 22 of 2003
7:00 to 9:00 PM
Divino Lounge and Restaurant
7345-B Wisconsin Ave. - Bethesda, MD 20814
$ 15 individual - $ 25 couple
Limited space – R.S.V.P. 202 223 9100




Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:10:41 EST
From: Alieduo03@AOL.COM
Subject: NA-E Milonga with Live Music in Virginia

Milonga with Live Tango Music
Friday, January 16
9pm-12am

Alicia Bokser, Piano
Eduardo Fernandez, Bandoneon

Common Grounds
3211 Wilson Blvd. Arlington, Virginia

Call Sharna at 202-337-7647




Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:15 -0500
From: Riccardo Fanciulli <riccardo@PHYSICS.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Tango music live: looking for

Dear list,

I would like to know if anybody is aware of any group playing tango music in
the Midwest (we are based in Indiana). In particular I'm looking for
danceable tango music, so... For example, Piazzolla is great, but we don't
want a whole evening of Piazzolla. You probably know what I mean.
I will really appreciate any info that you may provide.
Thank you,
- Riccardo




Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:05:22 -0800
From: Burak Ozkosem <burakozkosem@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango music live: looking for

Loring Tango Orchestra of Minneapolis play golden age and post-golden age tangos,
you can find their details on The Tango Society of Minnesota-TSoM website calendar www.mntango.org (look for Sundays)


El Turco
www.tangoshusheta.com

Riccardo Fanciulli <riccardo@PHYSICS.PURDUE.EDU> wrote:
Dear list,

I would like to know if anybody is aware of any group playing tango music in
the Midwest (we are based in Indiana). In particular I'm looking for
danceable tango music, so... For example, Piazzolla is great, but we don't
want a whole evening of Piazzolla. You probably know what I mean.
I will really appreciate any info that you may provide.
Thank you,
- Riccardo

Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online




Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:25:24 EST
From: Alieduo03@AOL.COM
Subject: NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music

This Saturday March 27 - Tango Night at Mayorga Coffee Factory
Join us for LIVE MUSIC and dancing at this totally hip cafe on Georgia
Avenue!
Featuring live music by Alicia Bokser, piano; Eduardo Fernandez, bandoneon;
and
Ricardo Varrenti, bass.
Intro Lesson with Sharna at 7:30pm, dancing til 1am!
Enjoy some truly outstanding espresso (Mayorga's own label, roasted
locally), full bar, and fresh and delicious sandwiches, appetizers, and
desserts.
Admision free
Parking lot behind the cafe.
Cafe Mayorga Coffee Factory, 8020 Georgia Avenue,
Silver Spring, MD. (METRO: Silver Spring, red line)





Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:46:32 -0800
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music

Please do not send this notice to Tango-L .
I could not care less about your free milonga, I don't see a description
of the free plane ticket and the free hotel accommodations.
So have somebody with a higher IQ send this advertisements.
I am in Seattle and we have many milongas here, the time spent in driving
to a milonga should be less than half an hour or it is too far.
Please pay attention to the following:
should be sent to
send the
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
Elemer in Redmond



On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:25:24 EST Alieduo03@AOL.COM writes:

> This Saturday March 27 - Tango Night at Mayorga Coffee Factory





Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:51:48 -0800
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:05:44 EST Alieduo03@aol.com writes:
Your Seattle events are also in the list, and we care, the List is to get
to know what is going on in other communities. There are also visitors,
people from other cities and most of the time are very grateful to have
this information.
So, do not thing in yourself only. The list is a community service.
Regarding your IQ, probably yours is very high, about your sense of being
part of tango community I can see your are very far.
Eduardo

Thak you for this nice E-Mail, Please read the Following:
should be sent to
send the
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.

Elemer In Redmond





Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:15:37 -0500
From: Gulden Ozen <gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
Subject: Re: NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music

Somebody's mistake or ignorance about sending an event announcement to a
discussion list shouldn't allow you to disvalue the importance of
interaction among the tango communities. If any tango venue more than 30
minutes away from you is just too far away then why are you on this list?
Why is it important to you to know the opinions of tangueros who live
hundreds and thoudands of miles away from you? In any case, some
moderation in your reactions, even for a just reason, could get your
message across better, I believe.

Best,

Gulden

> On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:05:44 EST Alieduo03@aol.com writes:
> Your Seattle events are also in the list, and we care, the List is to get
> to know what is going on in other communities. There are also visitors,
> people from other cities and most of the time are very grateful to have
> this information.
> So, do not thing in yourself only. The list is a community service.
> Regarding your IQ, probably yours is very high, about your sense of being
> part of tango community I can see your are very far.
> Eduardo
>
> Thak you for this nice E-Mail, Please read the Following:
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
> Elemer In Redmond
>
>





Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:15:02 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music

Gulden,
it is a fact that announcements should go to the other list. I live in
Japan, does that qualify me enough in your eyes for being annoyed at these
announcements ?

Astrid

----- Original Message -----



Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music


> Somebody's mistake or ignorance about sending an event announcement to a
> discussion list shouldn't allow you to disvalue the importance of
> interaction among the tango communities. If any tango venue more than 30
> minutes away from you is just too far away then why are you on this list?
> Why is it important to you to know the opinions of tangueros who live
> hundreds and thoudands of miles away from you? In any case, some
> moderation in your reactions, even for a just reason, could get your
> message across better, I believe.
>
> Best,
>
> Gulden
>





Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 02:28:09 -0500
From: Gulden Ozen <gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
Subject: Re: NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music

Astrid,
I think I couldn't make it clear in my message but my point is that even
though it is not proper to send these event announcements to this list, I
don't think it should be a reason for any member of this list to degrade
the value of interactions among communities while criticizing the
improper act.
People are on this list to hear each other's opinions about tango
regardless of their location. You are certainly entitled to get annoyed
at anything you want, including my message about being more moderate with
our replies to this list. However,in my opinion, it would be better if a
message could be able to convey more than just being an angry and
arrogant voice. There were other messages on this list that also
criticized these wrongfully addressed event announcements either
cynically, aggressively or subtly. Weren't they strong enough without
degrading some commonly shared values like the interactions among
communities? I think they were and I hope that's the case with most
people on this list...

Gulden


> Gulden,
> it is a fact that announcements should go to the other list. I live in
> Japan, does that qualify me enough in your eyes for being annoyed at these
> announcements ?
>
> Astrid
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gulden Ozen" <gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music
>
>
>> Somebody's mistake or ignorance about sending an event announcement to a
>> discussion list shouldn't allow you to disvalue the importance of
>> interaction among the tango communities. If any tango venue more than 30
>> minutes away from you is just too far away then why are you on this
>> list?
>> Why is it important to you to know the opinions of tangueros who live
>> hundreds and thoudands of miles away from you? In any case, some
>> moderation in your reactions, even for a just reason, could get your
>> message across better, I believe.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Gulden
>>
>
>




Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:26:11 +0100
From: Ecsedy ron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music

Pardon my cynism, but I am not sure whether the 1 (one) misplaced ad or the 5 consecutive messages criticising it cause more nuisance to =
listmembers... (also the one ad wasn't "emotionally disturbing" - most of the messages were...)

Aron ECSEDY
Hungary




Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:40:51 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music

Aron ECSEDY (Hungary) wrote:

>>Pardon my cynism, but I am not sure whether the 1 (one) misplaced ad or

the 5 consecutive messages criticising it cause more nuisance to
listmembers... (also the one ad wasn't "emotionally disturbing" - most of
the messages were...)<<

uhhh! Make that a sixth message criticizing the critcs and a
seventh--this one. ;-)

Steve




Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 08:54:25 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: NA/E Washington DC milonga with live music

For heaven's sake, Gulden! Get a grip!! Nobody is
criticizing the "interactions among communities" here,
just the inappropriate way they choose to do so. If
you can't see the difference, well, I rest my case.

Luda



Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 02:28:09 -0500
From: Gulden Ozen <gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
Subject: Re: NA/E Washington DC milonga with live
music

Astrid,
I think I couldn't make it clear in my message but my

point is that even
though it is not proper to send these event
announcements to this list, I
don't think it should be a reason for any member of
this list to degrade
the value of interactions among communities while
criticizing the
improper act....


=====






Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:21:33 +1100
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Live music for milongas - touring musicians

We don't get a lot of live tango music here in Australia - though there are
a few excellent musicians.

But occasionally, tango musicians or bands travel here from Argentina,
Europe, USA or elsewhere, with a show or to play a concert somewhere.

Often, no-one else in Australia knows they are here till the advertisements
go out, or even after the show! So other tango communities here miss out on
the chance to offer them more work - and get more live music happening.

I would love some discussion of the various tango orchestras and groups
around the world who do some touring, particularly at the .. affordable ...
end of the spectrum. And of the practicality of touring to Australia, how
they manage their touring schedule, whether they work through agents etc.

And musicians: maybe, if you are planning to come to Australia to play, let
us know with an announcement on TANGO-A? Or email me...

--

Gary Barnes
President
Tango Social Club of Canberra

"more tango, more often"
www.tangocanberra.asn.au




Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:33:28 -0400
From: Selena Caldera <Selena.Caldera@CBO.GOV>
Subject: Live tango music?

I'm helping to arrange scheduling for a live music coffeehouse milonga
in DC, and we're looking to expand our line-up of groups. Our open
dates are: Oct. 8th, Nov. 12, Dec. 10. If you're in the East Coast
area, or will be traveling in the area, and play in a tango group, sing,
know a fabulous tango group, etc. please drop us a line (privately
please) -- we love suggestions!




Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:37:10 EDT
From: Vivitango@AOL.COM
Subject: NA- E :Washington DC, LIVE MUSIC Daniel Diaz and his Tango Camerata

Saturday september 11.
LIVE MUSIC MILONGA at Dushor.
Tango Camerata , maestro Daniel Diaz on bandoneon.
9 PM. to 2 AM.
$20.




Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:23:18 -0700
From: Rick Barbarash <rbarbarash@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: But The Dance Lives On...

I wanted to share this with all of you cause it was pretty funny. I was searching out regional tango yahoo groups to add to our database & I came across this Yahoo Group called the Tango Database Web Connection with several hundred members. It's description is "This is a meeting place for Tango Developers and Newbies to meet and learn more about Tango." The welcoming message reads:
"We just need a public site to learn and share info about Tango. So lets get the word out and tell others about this site so we all can make great sites using Tango. So lets get in from the code and learn how to Tango."

So I joined it & started scanning the messages. It was really confusing. It started with brief messages on learning tango , then lots of computer stuff. Then Milonga announcements, then some questions like setting up microsoft email for tango, then your typical workshop tango announcements, then more really technical computer software postings, then Tours to Buenos Aires and so on, back & forth... I figured this was the Tango Computer Geeks webpage. Then I came across this message and it all made sense... enjoy.



Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:26:32 EDT
From: JFPaloma@AOL.COM
Subject: NA-W: Live music Tuesday at the Tango Room

Tuesday, April 12th.
at The Tango Room Dance Center
4346 Woodman Avenue
Sherman Oaks, CA
Pablo Motta (the bass player of FOREVER TANGO) is bringing a group of
exciting musicians to play for our casual Tuesday milonga.
Cost is only $10
9pm to 12pm
Join us!




Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:05:19 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Fw: prophecy lets! But Darwin lives!

Al least we seem to agree that Tango is subject to
evolution...

Lucia

--- Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
escribis:

> Amen....
> Daniel
>
> seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> On 9/30/05, cella wrote:
> >
> > may be , I thought I can make you REMEMBER what
> Argentine Tango is ALL
> > about.
> >
> >
> >
> > @---- -- this is a rose, but I dont know how to do
> it :) may be you can
> > complete
>
>
> cella:
>
> Please help me understand: do we have to have pious
> revelations while
> dancing Tango and banish all impure thoughts?
>
> Seth
>
>
>
> Daniel Lapadula
> ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
>
>
> www.tangoestilodelcentro.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! for Good
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina
> relief effort.
>













Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:08:48 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: prophecy lets! But Darwin lives!

Evolution??? I thought that the correct thinking these days is "intelligent
design" ;-)

(with tongue firmly in cheek)

Manuel


>From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>

:19 +0000

>
>Al least we seem to agree that Tango is subject to
>evolution...
>
>Lucia
>
> --- Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
>escribis:
>
> > Amen....
> > Daniel
> >
> > seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > On 9/30/05, cella wrote:
> > >
> > > may be , I thought I can make you REMEMBER what
> > Argentine Tango is ALL
> > > about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > @---- -- this is a rose, but I dont know how to do
> > it :) may be you can
> > > complete
> >
> >
> > cella:
> >
> > Please help me understand: do we have to have pious
> > revelations while
> > dancing Tango and banish all impure thoughts?
> >
> > Seth
> >
> >
> >
> > Daniel Lapadula
> > ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > www.tangoestilodelcentro.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! for Good
> > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina
> > relief effort.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:13:31 -0400
From: Richard deSousa <mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: prophecy lets! But Darwin lives!

Tango evolution is "intelligent design?" At times on the dance floor
it seems like chaos to me... tongue also firmly planted in cheek... ;-)

El Bandito de Tango




-----Original Message-----



Sent: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:08:48 -0400
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Fw: prophecy lets! But Darwin lives!

Evolution??? I thought that the correct thinking these days is
"intelligent
design" ;-)

(with tongue firmly in cheek)

Manuel

>From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
:19 +0000
>
>Al least we seem to agree that Tango is subject to
>evolution...
>
>Lucia
>
> --- Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
>escribis:
>
> > Amen....
> > Daniel
> >
> > seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > On 9/30/05, cella wrote:
> > >
> > > may be , I thought I can make you REMEMBER what
> > Argentine Tango is ALL
> > > about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > @---- -- this is a rose, but I dont know how to do
> > it :) may be you can
> > > complete
> >
> >
> > cella:
> >
> > Please help me understand: do we have to have pious
> > revelations while
> > dancing Tango and banish all impure thoughts?
> >
> > Seth
> >
> >
> >
> > Daniel Lapadula
> > ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > www.tangoestilodelcentro.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! for Good
> > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina
> > relief effort.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 23:31:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Hello everybody,

OK, not much happening on the list today,
so.....here's an issue about which I would like to see
some opinions. I don't recall having read anything
about it in the past.

I want to know why some dancers seem attracted to live
bands. I've heard, and danced to (or at least tried to
dance to), Extasis, Tango Lorca, Tango Berretin, Color
Tango, and Glovertango/Tosca.

Glovertango is good dancing music (Tosca was their old
incarnation; no bueno por bailar), Tango Berretin was
good about two years ago, when I first heard them, but
deteriorated quickly. Tango Lorca and Extasis have
always been bad (for dancing), in my opinion.

But wait....they are all very talented musicians, the
music they play is beautiful and lovely, and I respect
them all for their hard work and for their love of
tango music. I was a musician (guitar, sax, piano),
and I appreciate the hard work that goes into their
music. The way Alex Krebs learned bandoneon is nothing
short of miraculous.

But it sucks trying to dance to it. I can't stand it.
It's TORTURE. I don't want to work hard trying to
interpret music into dance. I CAN do it. I've been
dancing for quite a while, and have reached a level
where I can actually put together some steps that move
WITH that sort of music. But it's no fun; it just
sucks....big time.

And when I look at the dance floor at one of these
events, it doesn't work. There is music, and there are
people dancing, but the two don't go together at all.
It's like you could be playing jazz, or classical
music, and the people just keep on dancing, not having
any clue that what they're doing has nothing to do
with the music.

About six weeks ago I went to a milonga here in
Houston. Sarah was out of town, so I decided to check
it out, and hopefully have a good time, and a good
dance or two. The organizer is a very talented dancer
and can dance to anything. I believe he has a
background in ballet, and can swing, jitterbug, tango,
etc, etc, you name it. Very, very impressive.

I stayed about 45 minutes, danced a couple tandas. The
music SUCKED...... for dancing. He played 1960 and
later Pugliese, and Piazzola-type stuff. Color Tango,
etc..... I can dance to it, and he can, but nobody
else in this city can. They can't even come close to
interpreting this stuff into a dance.

I was just going to leave, but I forced myself to go
back and ask him where the hell he came up with this
music, and what made him play it. He said that it is
beautiful, fantastic music. I agreed, "Yes, it is
gorgeous, beautiful music, and very pretty to listen
to, but LOOK AT THE DANCE FLOOR. Is anybody dancing
WITH the music?"

His response was that it was a good "challenge" for
them.

My response is this (and this is my opinion); I pay
damn good money for plane tickets, hotels, and
entrance fees to attend festivals all over the US.
Keep your live bands out of the festivals that I pay
to support. If one of these bands wants to learn how
to play music just like DiSarli, D'Arienzo, Calo,
Troilo, etc, from the '30s, '40s, 50s....that would be
great. I could really get into it. But until that
happens, get the hell out of my milongas.

You don't ever hear this kind of music in the milongas
in Buenos Aires. How do the old milongueros interpret
the music so well? Because they've heard the song
about 5000 times. And there is always something new to
it, something you never heard before, or something
that finally sinks in, and feels a different way, with
a different way to dance it. A pause/suspension in a
new spot, or a traspie where you never put one before.

I have no qualms about alternative music; I dance to
good blues all the time. I can dance tango to blues,
country, pop, rock. But why do people think that
"alternative tango music" has to have some sort of
"connection" to tango??????? Gotan Project and
Narcotango have a couple things that are just "ok",
but by and large their stuff is NOT to dance to. Might
as well just take up break dancing and the fine art of
"rap".

As you can tell, I feel very strongly about this
subject, and it's importance is growing, to me, at
least. With the proliferation of tango festivals in
the US, it may very well soon become a deciding factor
in which festivals I choose to attend. I will NOT be
present at the Mercury Cafe milongas in Denver
anymore. But next time you're there look around; many
important teachers/dancers no longer attend,
(but I'll be there Saturday and Sunday, at least). I'm
looking forward to the Atlanta festival next year
(where there is no thought of live music, yet). And I
was not in attendance during the live music session in
Mt Vernon last weekend.

An aside here....Marilyn, I love your place; the
Mercury is a great venue, even with the moguls, but
it's way too crowded now, and I'm sick of the live
music. I was there for the first time five years ago,
when all of the milongas were at your place, and that
experience was instrumental in determining my tango
fate. But it's way, way, way out of hand, the
festivals have
outgrown your capacity. There are many who choose not
to attend anymore because there is no place to sit,
stand, walk, dance, put stuff, etc......please release
Tom and let him hold an alternate event that night for
those of us too claustrophobic to attend.

I know that many out there seem to love live music.
And I will do my best to understand, and see it from
your side, so I'm looking forward to reading your
responses, either private or on the list. It may be
that I am in such a minority that I must just learn to
live with it, or move to Buenos Aires!

So, why are people attracted to music they cannot
dance to? What makes them think that its cool to dance
to live music, whether they can, or not?

Best wishes to all,

Michael Figart II, Houston Tx






Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:49:58 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Oh, Michael how right you are !!!

Hey, live musicians ! If we come to your concerts and we applause it does
not mean we really think your are the best !
( I am sorry for "we", I usually say "I", but there are at least 2 of us :
Michael and me - we ! )

It is because we are supporting you. Why don't you support us? Spend some
time researching good tango music, become good DJs first? Forget about all
music made after 1952. You HAVE TO know all tango music 1920-1952 very well
in order to play it right. All 17 great bands, right Keith? You want to play
"modern"? If you know what you play, you will play not only "modern", but
also "right". And "great"!

I remember Glover's concert at Verdi. A bandoneonist present even stopped
playing. He was not able to follow exquisite Glover's arrangements and
rhythmical patterns. Frankly, most poor dancers of that club were not able
to dance to the music either, but I was on the seventh heaven. That was in
the past.

I must say that here, in San Francisco, our local bands go in very good
direction. Tango N 9 plays pretty good tangos in classical style. ( Their
1-st CD made years ago is not ok ). Trio Garufa moved slowly but surely to
more refined and classical style - similar to Troilo, I would compare it to.
Roman Rosso, a young professional (!) genius bandoneonist from BA with a
band of local supporters made very good milonga recently at El Valenciano.

And I expect absolutely fantastic tango event in December:
http://www.virtuar.com/tango/index.htm ( this is my site, see the large ad
with links their own sites: 7 women orchestra on the main SF stage and even
more tango dancers ! )
The production site: http://www.leadingladiesoftango.com/page2.htm

So, Michael, our musicians are moving in the right direction. Hopefully
others will follow. Still, a way to go..

But not everybody shares our taste, Michael. I remember, at the last Denver
event, at the alternative milonga Robin played a set of wonderful energizing
old foxtrots ( very tango! Sounds perfect for a milonga. ). A young girl
said to me: "Why is he playing it? I hate it !!!"... I was shockingly
reminded about the reality. Should we wait one more generation?

Igor Polk.
PS.
Links to the mentioned bands can be found here:
http://www.virtuar.com/tango/ongoing.htm#serving

El Valenciano concert photos:
http://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/2006/sltango.htm - Roman Rosso







Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:49 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Michael

Thanks for that interesting post.

Over here (Europe) too, the live music is rarely as good as the recorded
music we have. No surprise, since the recorded music is a selection of
the best from many years... and the live music is the largely
unselected, or negatively selected by show-oriented festival organisers.

There does though remain the particular attraction of the liveness
itself, and for special occasions that makes a good live band preferable
to recordings, I think.

Color Tango are one of the few I've seen hereabouts that have a good
dance feel, but their narrow Pugliese-ish style makes them not great for
a whole evening, I find.

The only other two here I'd definitely want to dance to are Sexteto
Canyengue, Quinteto Silencio and Hyperion Ensemble.

At the other extreme we get the likes of El Arranque - concert tango
smartasses with zero interest in or respect for dancing. Even festival
organiser ignorance is no excuse for booking them.

Then in between there are often small orchestra of youngsters
recommended (or not) only by the fact they are from BsAs - they can play
their instruments, and some music, but haven't yet learnt to inject the
dance feel. And then there are local amateur orchestras, usually much
better for dancing. perhaps because they are led by dancers.

> So, why are people attracted to music they cannot dance to?

Good question. I've found they are actually not much interested in the
music. The dance is not an effect of their feeling for the music, but
just something they do with the accompaniment of the music. This is
perhaps because hereabouts many are taught to dance (sort of) at a stage
when they have no relationship with the music. Moreover the prevalent
class teaching method disfavours and hence selects against those whose
dancing is music-driven.

Chris



-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* [Tango-L] music; live or dead
*From:* Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
*To:* Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
*Date:* Fri, 11 Aug 2006 23:31:22 -0700 (PDT)

Hello everybody,

OK, not much happening on the list today,
so.....here's an issue about which I would like to see
some opinions. I don't recall having read anything
about it in the past.

I want to know why some dancers seem attracted to live
bands. I've heard, and danced to (or at least tried to
dance to), Extasis, Tango Lorca, Tango Berretin, Color
Tango, and Glovertango/Tosca.

Glovertango is good dancing music (Tosca was their old
incarnation; no bueno por bailar), Tango Berretin was
good about two years ago, when I first heard them, but
deteriorated quickly. Tango Lorca and Extasis have
always been bad (for dancing), in my opinion.

But wait....they are all very talented musicians, the
music they play is beautiful and lovely, and I respect
them all for their hard work and for their love of
tango music. I was a musician (guitar, sax, piano),
and I appreciate the hard work that goes into their
music. The way Alex Krebs learned bandoneon is nothing
short of miraculous.

But it sucks trying to dance to it. I can't stand it.
It's TORTURE. I don't want to work hard trying to
interpret music into dance. I CAN do it. I've been
dancing for quite a while, and have reached a level
where I can actually put together some steps that move
WITH that sort of music. But it's no fun; it just
sucks....big time.

And when I look at the dance floor at one of these
events, it doesn't work. There is music, and there are
people dancing, but the two don't go together at all.
It's like you could be playing jazz, or classical
music, and the people just keep on dancing, not having
any clue that what they're doing has nothing to do
with the music.

About six weeks ago I went to a milonga here in
Houston. Sarah was out of town, so I decided to check
it out, and hopefully have a good time, and a good
dance or two. The organizer is a very talented dancer
and can dance to anything. I believe he has a
background in ballet, and can swing, jitterbug, tango,
etc, etc, you name it. Very, very impressive.

I stayed about 45 minutes, danced a couple tandas. The
music SUCKED...... for dancing. He played 1960 and
later Pugliese, and Piazzola-type stuff. Color Tango,
etc..... I can dance to it, and he can, but nobody
else in this city can. They can't even come close to
interpreting this stuff into a dance.

I was just going to leave, but I forced myself to go
back and ask him where the hell he came up with this
music, and what made him play it. He said that it is
beautiful, fantastic music. I agreed, "Yes, it is
gorgeous, beautiful music, and very pretty to listen
to, but LOOK AT THE DANCE FLOOR. Is anybody dancing
WITH the music?"

His response was that it was a good "challenge" for
them.

My response is this (and this is my opinion); I pay
damn good money for plane tickets, hotels, and
entrance fees to attend festivals all over the US.
Keep your live bands out of the festivals that I pay
to support. If one of these bands wants to learn how
to play music just like DiSarli, D'Arienzo, Calo,
Troilo, etc, from the '30s, '40s, 50s....that would be
great. I could really get into it. But until that
happens, get the hell out of my milongas.

You don't ever hear this kind of music in the milongas
in Buenos Aires. How do the old milongueros interpret
the music so well? Because they've heard the song
about 5000 times. And there is always something new to
it, something you never heard before, or something
that finally sinks in, and feels a different way, with
a different way to dance it. A pause/suspension in a
new spot, or a traspie where you never put one before.

I have no qualms about alternative music; I dance to
good blues all the time. I can dance tango to blues,
country, pop, rock. But why do people think that
"alternative tango music" has to have some sort of
"connection" to tango??????? Gotan Project and
Narcotango have a couple things that are just "ok",
but by and large their stuff is NOT to dance to. Might
as well just take up break dancing and the fine art of
"rap".

As you can tell, I feel very strongly about this
subject, and it's importance is growing, to me, at
least. With the proliferation of tango festivals in
the US, it may very well soon become a deciding factor
in which festivals I choose to attend. I will NOT be
present at the Mercury Cafe milongas in Denver
anymore. But next time you're there look around; many
important teachers/dancers no longer attend,
(but I'll be there Saturday and Sunday, at least). I'm
looking forward to the Atlanta festival next year
(where there is no thought of live music, yet). And I
was not in attendance during the live music session in
Mt Vernon last weekend.

An aside here....Marilyn, I love your place; the
Mercury is a great venue, even with the moguls, but
it's way too crowded now, and I'm sick of the live
music. I was there for the first time five years ago,
when all of the milongas were at your place, and that
experience was instrumental in determining my tango
fate. But it's way, way, way out of hand, the
festivals have
outgrown your capacity. There are many who choose not
to attend anymore because there is no place to sit,
stand, walk, dance, put stuff, etc......please release
Tom and let him hold an alternate event that night for
those of us too claustrophobic to attend.

I know that many out there seem to love live music.
And I will do my best to understand, and see it from
your side, so I'm looking forward to reading your
responses, either private or on the list. It may be
that I am in such a minority that I must just learn to
live with it, or move to Buenos Aires!

So, why are people attracted to music they cannot
dance to? What makes them think that its cool to dance
to live music, whether they can, or not?

Best wishes to all,

Michael Figart II, Houston Tx







Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 07:36:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Perhaps the solution is to support these smaller groups
that "get it". Last summer, we invited the tango duo
Folias (Carmen & Andrew from Michigan who are also dancers)
to teach a musicality workshop and play with one of the
local musicians, Jeremy. The trio (guitar, flute, cello)
played at a milonga and it was great! Every once in a
while they would check if the dancers were really listening
(doing "silent" beats, for example). And everyone enjoyed
it. I don't know if the bands you mentioned play with
dancers in that way. But without that kind of interaction,
I don't see why musicians should expect dancers to actually
listen to the music.

As several musicians have told me, it is inspiring for them
when they know people are listening to their music and how
they play it. But if musicians don't get the dancers
involved in the music and the dancers do not get involved
with the music, the level of musicality and dancing
suffers.

Those interested in contacting Folias can email Carmen
Maret at foliasmusic@yahoo.com.


--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:

> Oh, Michael how right you are !!!
>
> Hey, live musicians ! If we come to your concerts and we
> applause it does
> not mean we really think your are the best !
> ( I am sorry for "we", I usually say "I", but there are
> at least 2 of us :
> Michael and me - we ! )


PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
http://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm









Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 02:02:21 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: "Michael Figart II" <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>, "Tango-L"
<tango-l@mit.edu>

> I want to know why some dancers seem attracted to live
> bands. I've heard, and danced to (or at least tried to
> dance to), Extasis, Tango Lorca, Tango Berretin, Color
> Tango, and Glovertango/Tosca.
>
> Glovertango is good dancing music (Tosca was their old
> incarnation; no bueno por bailar), Tango Berretin was
> good about two years ago, when I first heard them, but
> deteriorated quickly. Tango Lorca and Extasis have
> always been bad (for dancing), in my opinion.

I don't know any of the orchestras mentioned in the second paragraph, but
Color Tango happens to be Jose Luna's favourite music to do his shows to,
and that's what we got to hear in our lessons with him almost exclusively
for nearly 6 months, when he opened his first studio in Tokyo in 2001 or so.
And that is what he's got a theme song on his website, and you can maybe
also find a video clip of him dancing to that band with Laura Mangione on
www.lunadetango.com. Of course you won't like it, Michael, I imagine, as
Jose is certainly no milonguero but a dancer of fantasia.

> But it sucks trying to dance to it. I can't stand it.
> It's TORTURE. I don't want to work hard trying to
> interpret music into dance.
> And when I look at the dance floor at one of these
> events, it doesn't work. There is music, and there are
> people dancing, but the two don't go together at all.

> I stayed about 45 minutes, danced a couple tandas. The
> music SUCKED...... for dancing. He played 1960 and
> later Pugliese, and Piazzola-type stuff. Color Tango,
> etc..... I can dance to it, and he can, but nobody
> else in this city can. They can't even come close to
> interpreting this stuff into a dance.

Pugliese attracts a lot of the beginners, because it has such a dramatic
rhythm and is slow too, but it actually takes a lot of skill to really
interprete it. Esp. all the "stretchy steps" and the posture you need to
hold the tension of the music. That is why they usually play it late at
night in the better milongas, when only the diehards are left on the floor,
I suppose. Piazzola can be a fantastic experience with the right partner,
but I would never waste one of Astor's songs on an unmusical beginner.
Almost as frustrating as dancing a milonga with somebody who is dancing
tango by rote memory.

>
> His response was that it was a good "challenge" for
> them.

Yeah, right... But you better learn how to deal with that challenge before
you get out there. Still, if you are a creative dancer, this music is great
for experimenting.

>

. If one of these bands wants to learn how

> to play music just like DiSarli, D'Arienzo, Calo,
> Troilo, etc, from the '30s, '40s, 50s....that would be
> great. I could really get into it.

In my personal opinion, which I am sure has plenty of opposition, Di Sarli
sucks. I got an overdose of that when I had to do drills as a beginner, and
to me, Di Sarli's music is a real turn off. I feel almost allergic to it.
Often used by the first generation of tango dancers here, who are in their
Sixties and Seventies, because they prefer it slow. Or the
ex-ballroom-dancers.
Calo is great, again with the right partner, Troilo can be tricky, and
D'Arienzo is again totally wasted on the wide open embrace crowd who likes
Di Sarli and Pugliese. It really depends on your style, Michael.

Gotan Project and

> Narcotango have a couple things that are just "ok",
> but by and large their stuff is NOT to dance to. Might
> as well just take up break dancing and the fine art of
> "rap".

I love dancing to both of those bands, even though they only play certain
pieces at our milonga, but I always ask the young guy in black leather
pants, and the other young one with his very long legs to dance that with
me. The older dancers often let go of me and leave the floor with a look of
confusion on their faces when that music comes on, letting me know that they
will be back later for a different song they know how to deal with
rhythmwise.

> I know that many out there seem to love live music.
> And I will do my best to understand, and see it from
> your side, so I'm looking forward to reading your
> responses, either private or on the list. It may be
> that I am in such a minority that I must just learn to
> live with it, or move to Buenos Aires!
>
> So, why are people attracted to music they cannot
> dance to?

Frankly, Michael, the people who feel they can't dance to it, are not
attracted to it at all. The ones who can love it. Some time ago in winter we
had Machiko Komatsu and Tango Cristal play live at Luna de Tango's milonga.
I had a ball that night. A- because people were there who otherwise never
come but know me from years ago and all danced with me, and B- because my
usual partners asked me again and again, and I figure, they felt I am one
the very few women who have enough sense of rhythm to dance to that kind of
live music. Ms. Komatsu, who is the honourable mother of the famous
bandoneonist and tango composer Ryota Komatsu who has played the music for
Fernanda and Guillermo and Diego and Carolina at the "Tango Magic"show,
announced that she would only play tango para bailar for us and she did. You
can check out her orchestra and sound files at
http://www.tangocristal.com/e-frame.html . Their website has an English
version. Ever heard a contemporary Japanese tango musician and composer
before?

Astrid, Tokyo







Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:10:00 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: "'Tango-L'" <tango-l@mit.edu>

Excellent post, Michael. Here in MN I get a lot of flak for not "liking"
Piazzola, or Nuevo, or live music. That's not it - I don't like bad
dancing, which is what you have when you are not dancing to the music.

When Susana Miller was here, she railed at our local DJ's for the music
they were playing. She said that no tango community can flower without
good music. She was so right - all I need to do is hear the music that
is played in the local milongas and I can predict the level of dancing
there.

I danced to Color Tango live in BsAs, with an incredible Argentine
dancer who interpreted the music excellently. I must have been looking
quite happy, because the leader of Color Tango gave me a smile and a nod
after the dance that I will always remember.

Lois Donnay
Hoping to see you all in Minnesota for the Heartland Tango Festival!
www.heartlandtango.com



-----Original Message-----



From: Michael Figart II [mailto:michaelfigart@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:31 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: [Tango-L] music; live or dead

Hello everybody,

OK, not much happening on the list today,
so.....here's an issue about which I would like to see
some opinions. I don't recall having read anything
about it in the past.

I want to know why some dancers seem attracted to live
bands. I've heard, and danced to (or at least tried to
dance to), Extasis, Tango Lorca, Tango Berretin, Color
Tango, and Glovertango/Tosca.

Glovertango is good dancing music (Tosca was their old
incarnation; no bueno por bailar), Tango Berretin was
good about two years ago, when I first heard them, but
deteriorated quickly. Tango Lorca and Extasis have
always been bad (for dancing), in my opinion.

But wait....they are all very talented musicians, the
music they play is beautiful and lovely, and I respect
them all for their hard work and for their love of
tango music. I was a musician (guitar, sax, piano),
and I appreciate the hard work that goes into their
music. The way Alex Krebs learned bandoneon is nothing
short of miraculous.

But it sucks trying to dance to it. I can't stand it.
It's TORTURE. I don't want to work hard trying to
interpret music into dance. I CAN do it. I've been
dancing for quite a while, and have reached a level
where I can actually put together some steps that move
WITH that sort of music. But it's no fun; it just
sucks....big time.

And when I look at the dance floor at one of these
events, it doesn't work. There is music, and there are
people dancing, but the two don't go together at all.
It's like you could be playing jazz, or classical
music, and the people just keep on dancing, not having
any clue that what they're doing has nothing to do
with the music.

About six weeks ago I went to a milonga here in
Houston. Sarah was out of town, so I decided to check
it out, and hopefully have a good time, and a good
dance or two. The organizer is a very talented dancer
and can dance to anything. I believe he has a
background in ballet, and can swing, jitterbug, tango,
etc, etc, you name it. Very, very impressive.

I stayed about 45 minutes, danced a couple tandas. The
music SUCKED...... for dancing. He played 1960 and
later Pugliese, and Piazzola-type stuff. Color Tango,
etc..... I can dance to it, and he can, but nobody
else in this city can. They can't even come close to
interpreting this stuff into a dance.

I was just going to leave, but I forced myself to go
back and ask him where the hell he came up with this
music, and what made him play it. He said that it is
beautiful, fantastic music. I agreed, "Yes, it is
gorgeous, beautiful music, and very pretty to listen
to, but LOOK AT THE DANCE FLOOR. Is anybody dancing
WITH the music?"

His response was that it was a good "challenge" for
them.

My response is this (and this is my opinion); I pay
damn good money for plane tickets, hotels, and
entrance fees to attend festivals all over the US.
Keep your live bands out of the festivals that I pay
to support. If one of these bands wants to learn how
to play music just like DiSarli, D'Arienzo, Calo,
Troilo, etc, from the '30s, '40s, 50s....that would be
great. I could really get into it. But until that
happens, get the hell out of my milongas.

You don't ever hear this kind of music in the milongas
in Buenos Aires. How do the old milongueros interpret
the music so well? Because they've heard the song
about 5000 times. And there is always something new to
it, something you never heard before, or something
that finally sinks in, and feels a different way, with
a different way to dance it. A pause/suspension in a
new spot, or a traspie where you never put one before.

I have no qualms about alternative music; I dance to
good blues all the time. I can dance tango to blues,
country, pop, rock. But why do people think that
"alternative tango music" has to have some sort of
"connection" to tango??????? Gotan Project and
Narcotango have a couple things that are just "ok",
but by and large their stuff is NOT to dance to. Might
as well just take up break dancing and the fine art of
"rap".

As you can tell, I feel very strongly about this
subject, and it's importance is growing, to me, at
least. With the proliferation of tango festivals in
the US, it may very well soon become a deciding factor
in which festivals I choose to attend. I will NOT be
present at the Mercury Cafe milongas in Denver
anymore. But next time you're there look around; many
important teachers/dancers no longer attend,
(but I'll be there Saturday and Sunday, at least). I'm
looking forward to the Atlanta festival next year
(where there is no thought of live music, yet). And I
was not in attendance during the live music session in
Mt Vernon last weekend.

An aside here....Marilyn, I love your place; the
Mercury is a great venue, even with the moguls, but
it's way too crowded now, and I'm sick of the live
music. I was there for the first time five years ago,
when all of the milongas were at your place, and that
experience was instrumental in determining my tango
fate. But it's way, way, way out of hand, the
festivals have
outgrown your capacity. There are many who choose not
to attend anymore because there is no place to sit,
stand, walk, dance, put stuff, etc......please release
Tom and let him hold an alternate event that night for
those of us too claustrophobic to attend.

I know that many out there seem to love live music.
And I will do my best to understand, and see it from
your side, so I'm looking forward to reading your
responses, either private or on the list. It may be
that I am in such a minority that I must just learn to
live with it, or move to Buenos Aires!

So, why are people attracted to music they cannot
dance to? What makes them think that its cool to dance
to live music, whether they can, or not?

Best wishes to all,

Michael Figart II, Houston Tx








Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:55:56 -0400
From: mallpasso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: michaelfigart@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu


Whoa! You've touched a nerve here, Michael. I hope you're wearing a suit of armor! LOL

Here in the SF bay area we have about a half dozen or so tango bands consisting of duos,
trios, and two orchestras. Since I don't own a suit of armor I'll be more circumspect and just
mention the ones I enjoy dancing to... ;-)

It took me a while to get accustomed to Trio Garufa, a group consisting of a bayan, a guitar,
and a bass but I've grown to appreciate and accustomed their music. These guys (and the
occasion girl who subs as bass) have been around several years now and they are terrific
musicians, very polished, and they've matured as an ensemble and their music is mostly
danceable - I say mostly because sometimes they enjoy torturing the dancers with changing
rhythms which can drive us crazy... LOL

Incidentally, several weeks ago I happened to be at a milonga in Belmont and the guitarist for
Trio Garufa showed up to play for Negracha (Ines del Valle Cabrera), who partners with Diego
Lanau who sang for us. Oh, wow, what a voice she has!

The SF Tango Orchestra is comprised of three bandoneons, two violins, a bass, and an electric
piano. They're pretty new (a year old?) so while they play some numbers well they can get a
little ragged at times with other songs (especially fast milongas) so it will take time for them to
polish their music, otherwise I predict a great future for them if they can stay together.

Then there's the Notable Trio, consisting of a bandoneon, a piano and a bass, who have played for
Nora's Tango Week for several years and they're probably the most classic of all the groups and
their music is danceable all the time.


El Bandido de Tango



-----Original Message-----
From: michaelfigart@yahoo.com
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Sent: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:31 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] music; live or dead

Hello everybody,

OK, not much happening on the list today,
so.....here's an issue about which I would like to see
some opinions. I don't recall having read anything
about it in the past.

I want to know why some dancers seem attracted to live
bands. I've heard, and danced to (or at least tried to
dance to), Extasis, Tango Lorca, Tango Berretin, Color
Tango, and Glovertango/Tosca.

Glovertango is good dancing music (Tosca was their old
incarnation; no bueno por bailar), Tango Berretin was
good about two years ago, when I first heard them, but
deteriorated quickly. Tango Lorca and Extasis have
always been bad (for dancing), in my opinion.

But wait....they are all very talented musicians, the
music they play is beautiful and lovely, and I respect
them all for their hard work and for their love of
tango music. I was a musician (guitar, sax, piano),
and I appreciate the hard work that goes into their
music. The way Alex Krebs learned bandoneon is nothing
short of miraculous.

But it sucks trying to dance to it. I can't stand it.
It's TORTURE. I don't want to work hard trying to
interpret music into dance. I CAN do it. I've been
dancing for quite a while, and have reached a level
where I can actually put together some steps that move
WITH that sort of music. But it's no fun; it just
sucks....big time.

And when I look at the dance floor at one of these
events, it doesn't work. There is music, and there are
people dancing, but the two don't go together at all.
It's like you could be playing jazz, or classical
music, and the people just keep on dancing, not having
any clue that what they're doing has nothing to do
with the music.

About six weeks ago I went to a milonga here in
Houston. Sarah was out of town, so I decided to check
it out, and hopefully have a good time, and a good
dance or two. The organizer is a very talented dancer
and can dance to anything. I believe he has a
background in ballet, and can swing, jitterbug, tango,
etc, etc, you name it. Very, very impressive.

I stayed about 45 minutes, danced a couple tandas. The
music SUCKED...... for dancing. He played 1960 and
later Pugliese, and Piazzola-type stuff. Color Tango,
etc..... I can dance to it, and he can, but nobody
else in this city can. They can't even come close to
interpreting this stuff into a dance.

I was just going to leave, but I forced myself to go
back and ask him where the hell he came up with this
music, and what made him play it. He said that it is
beautiful, fantastic music. I agreed, "Yes, it is
gorgeous, beautiful music, and very pretty to listen
to, but LOOK AT THE DANCE FLOOR. Is anybody dancing
WITH the music?"

His response was that it was a good "challenge" for
them.

My response is this (and this is my opinion); I pay
damn good money for plane tickets, hotels, and
entrance fees to attend festivals all over the US.
Keep your live bands out of the festivals that I pay
to support. If one of these bands wants to learn how
to play music just like DiSarli, D'Arienzo, Calo,
Troilo, etc, from the '30s, '40s, 50s....that would be
great. I could really get into it. But until that
happens, get the hell out of my milongas.

You don't ever hear this kind of music in the milongas
in Buenos Aires. How do the old milongueros interpret
the music so well? Because they've heard the song
about 5000 times. And there is always something new to
it, something you never heard before, or something
that finally sinks in, and feels a different way, with
a different way to dance it. A pause/suspension in a
new spot, or a traspie where you never put one before.

I have no qualms about alternative music; I dance to
good blues all the time. I can dance tango to blues,
country, pop, rock. But why do people think that
"alternative tango music" has to have some sort of
"connection" to tango??????? Gotan Project and
Narcotango have a couple things that are just "ok",
but by and large their stuff is NOT to dance to. Might
as well just take up break dancing and the fine art of
"rap".

As you can tell, I feel very strongly about this
subject, and it's importance is growing, to me, at
least. With the proliferation of tango festivals in
the US, it may very well soon become a deciding factor
in which festivals I choose to attend. I will NOT be
present at the Mercury Cafe milongas in Denver
anymore. But next time you're there look around; many
important teachers/dancers no longer attend,
(but I'll be there Saturday and Sunday, at least). I'm
looking forward to the Atlanta festival next year
(where there is no thought of live music, yet). And I
was not in attendance during the live music session in
Mt Vernon last weekend.

An aside here....Marilyn, I love your place; the
Mercury is a great venue, even with the moguls, but
it's way too crowded now, and I'm sick of the live
music. I was there for the first time five years ago,
when all of the milongas were at your place, and that
experience was instrumental in determining my tango
fate. But it's way, way, way out of hand, the
festivals have
outgrown your capacity. There are many who choose not
to attend anymore because there is no place to sit,
stand, walk, dance, put stuff, etc......please release
Tom and let him hold an alternate event that night for
those of us too claustrophobic to attend.

I know that many out there seem to love live music.
And I will do my best to understand, and see it from
your side, so I'm looking forward to reading your
responses, either private or on the list. It may be
that I am in such a minority that I must just learn to
live with it, or move to Buenos Aires!

So, why are people attracted to music they cannot
dance to? What makes them think that its cool to dance
to live music, whether they can, or not?

Best wishes to all,

Michael Figart II, Houston Tx


Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.





Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:24:25 -0400
From: "Neil Liveakos" <neil.liveakos@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<737e9d3f0608121824w500a39d8y75f52ef255ffcd1f@mail.gmail.com>

All. It seemed for a while there was a tenuous compromise in Denver and
Portland where the live music played early and the DJ played late. The
better dancers would show up late after the ochestras and the performances
and all was well at the milonga. Then the orchestras got better and they
played later and longer and the tenuous balance was lost. I don't think the
orchestras like playing dance music. They prefer the challenge of Piazzola.
My preference would be for them to play a concert early in a concert hall,
not the dance hall. We got to the concert. Then we go to the milonga with DJ
music. What do you think? Neil

On 8/12/06, mallpasso@aol.com <mallpasso@aol.com> wrote:

>
>
> Whoa! You've touched a nerve here, Michael. I hope you're wearing a suit
> of armor! LOL
>
> Here in the SF bay area we have about a half dozen or so tango bands
> consisting of duos,
> trios, and two orchestras. Since I don't own a suit of armor I'll be more
> circumspect and just
> mention the ones I enjoy dancing to... ;-)
>
> It took me a while to get accustomed to Trio Garufa, a group consisting of
> a bayan, a guitar,
> and a bass but I've grown to appreciate and accustomed their music. These
> guys (and the
> occasion girl who subs as bass) have been around several years now and
> they are terrific
> musicians, very polished, and they've matured as an ensemble and their
> music is mostly
> danceable - I say mostly because sometimes they enjoy torturing the
> dancers with changing
> rhythms which can drive us crazy... LOL
>
> Incidentally, several weeks ago I happened to be at a milonga in Belmont
> and the guitarist for
> Trio Garufa showed up to play for Negracha (Ines del Valle Cabrera), who
> partners with Diego
> Lanau who sang for us. Oh, wow, what a voice she has!
>
> The SF Tango Orchestra is comprised of three bandoneons, two violins, a
> bass, and an electric
> piano. They're pretty new (a year old?) so while they play some numbers
> well they can get a
> little ragged at times with other songs (especially fast milongas) so it
> will take time for them to
> polish their music, otherwise I predict a great future for them if they
> can stay together.
>
> Then there's the Notable Trio, consisting of a bandoneon, a piano and a
> bass, who have played for
> Nora's Tango Week for several years and they're probably the most classic
> of all the groups and
> their music is danceable all the time.
>
>
> El Bandido de Tango
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: michaelfigart@yahoo.com
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Sent: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:31 PM
> Subject: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
>
> Hello everybody,
>
> OK, not much happening on the list today,
> so.....here's an issue about which I would like to see
> some opinions. I don't recall having read anything
> about it in the past.
>
> I want to know why some dancers seem attracted to live
> bands. I've heard, and danced to (or at least tried to
> dance to), Extasis, Tango Lorca, Tango Berretin, Color
> Tango, and Glovertango/Tosca.
>
> Glovertango is good dancing music (Tosca was their old
> incarnation; no bueno por bailar), Tango Berretin was
> good about two years ago, when I first heard them, but
> deteriorated quickly. Tango Lorca and Extasis have
> always been bad (for dancing), in my opinion.
>
> But wait....they are all very talented musicians, the
> music they play is beautiful and lovely, and I respect
> them all for their hard work and for their love of
> tango music. I was a musician (guitar, sax, piano),
> and I appreciate the hard work that goes into their
> music. The way Alex Krebs learned bandoneon is nothing
> short of miraculous.
>
> But it sucks trying to dance to it. I can't stand it.
> It's TORTURE. I don't want to work hard trying to
> interpret music into dance. I CAN do it. I've been
> dancing for quite a while, and have reached a level
> where I can actually put together some steps that move
> WITH that sort of music. But it's no fun; it just
> sucks....big time.
>
> And when I look at the dance floor at one of these
> events, it doesn't work. There is music, and there are
> people dancing, but the two don't go together at all.
> It's like you could be playing jazz, or classical
> music, and the people just keep on dancing, not having
> any clue that what they're doing has nothing to do
> with the music.
>
> About six weeks ago I went to a milonga here in
> Houston. Sarah was out of town, so I decided to check
> it out, and hopefully have a good time, and a good
> dance or two. The organizer is a very talented dancer
> and can dance to anything. I believe he has a
> background in ballet, and can swing, jitterbug, tango,
> etc, etc, you name it. Very, very impressive.
>
> I stayed about 45 minutes, danced a couple tandas. The
> music SUCKED...... for dancing. He played 1960 and
> later Pugliese, and Piazzola-type stuff. Color Tango,
> etc..... I can dance to it, and he can, but nobody
> else in this city can. They can't even come close to
> interpreting this stuff into a dance.
>
> I was just going to leave, but I forced myself to go
> back and ask him where the hell he came up with this
> music, and what made him play it. He said that it is
> beautiful, fantastic music. I agreed, "Yes, it is
> gorgeous, beautiful music, and very pretty to listen
> to, but LOOK AT THE DANCE FLOOR. Is anybody dancing
> WITH the music?"
>
> His response was that it was a good "challenge" for
> them.
>
> My response is this (and this is my opinion); I pay
> damn good money for plane tickets, hotels, and
> entrance fees to attend festivals all over the US.
> Keep your live bands out of the festivals that I pay
> to support. If one of these bands wants to learn how
> to play music just like DiSarli, D'Arienzo, Calo,
> Troilo, etc, from the '30s, '40s, 50s....that would be
> great. I could really get into it. But until that
> happens, get the hell out of my milongas.
>
> You don't ever hear this kind of music in the milongas
> in Buenos Aires. How do the old milongueros interpret
> the music so well? Because they've heard the song
> about 5000 times. And there is always something new to
> it, something you never heard before, or something
> that finally sinks in, and feels a different way, with
> a different way to dance it. A pause/suspension in a
> new spot, or a traspie where you never put one before.
>
> I have no qualms about alternative music; I dance to
> good blues all the time. I can dance tango to blues,
> country, pop, rock. But why do people think that
> "alternative tango music" has to have some sort of
> "connection" to tango??????? Gotan Project and
> Narcotango have a couple things that are just "ok",
> but by and large their stuff is NOT to dance to. Might
> as well just take up break dancing and the fine art of
> "rap".
>
> As you can tell, I feel very strongly about this
> subject, and it's importance is growing, to me, at
> least. With the proliferation of tango festivals in
> the US, it may very well soon become a deciding factor
> in which festivals I choose to attend. I will NOT be
> present at the Mercury Cafe milongas in Denver
> anymore. But next time you're there look around; many
> important teachers/dancers no longer attend,
> (but I'll be there Saturday and Sunday, at least). I'm
> looking forward to the Atlanta festival next year
> (where there is no thought of live music, yet). And I
> was not in attendance during the live music session in
> Mt Vernon last weekend.
>
> An aside here....Marilyn, I love your place; the
> Mercury is a great venue, even with the moguls, but
> it's way too crowded now, and I'm sick of the live
> music. I was there for the first time five years ago,
> when all of the milongas were at your place, and that
> experience was instrumental in determining my tango
> fate. But it's way, way, way out of hand, the
> festivals have
> outgrown your capacity. There are many who choose not
> to attend anymore because there is no place to sit,
> stand, walk, dance, put stuff, etc......please release
> Tom and let him hold an alternate event that night for
> those of us too claustrophobic to attend.
>
> I know that many out there seem to love live music.
> And I will do my best to understand, and see it from
> your side, so I'm looking forward to reading your
> responses, either private or on the list. It may be
> that I am in such a minority that I must just learn to
> live with it, or move to Buenos Aires!
>
> So, why are people attracted to music they cannot
> dance to? What makes them think that its cool to dance
> to live music, whether they can, or not?
>
> Best wishes to all,
>
> Michael Figart II, Houston Tx
>
>
> Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and
> IM. All on demand. Always Free.
>



--
Neil Liveakos
http://milonga.us








Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:53:30 -0300
From: "Janis Kenyon" <jantango@feedback.net.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] music: live or dead
To: "Tango-L" <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>

Michael Figart touched on a subject about which I feel as strongly as he
does. He wrote in part:

<If one of these bands wants to learn how to play music just like DiSarli,
D'Arienzo, Calo, Troilo, etc, from the '30s, '40s, 50s....that would be
great. I could really get into it. But until that happens, get the hell out
of my milongas.>

I went to Confiteria Ideal last week to hear Gente de Tango perform for the
milonga. They are the only orchestra in the world that plays the style of
Carlos Di Sarli. Every piece they perform is danceable. One of the
bandoneonistas commented to me after their performance that no one was
dancing to the music. Nicholas, 25 years old and newest member of Gente de
Tango, noted that dancers were oblivous to the music they played.

<Gotan Project and Narcotango have a couple things that are just "ok", but
by and large their stuff is NOT to dance to. Might as well just take up
break dancing and the fine art of "rap".>

I obtained the program last night for the IV Campeonato Mundial de Baile de
Tango which begins Thursday night with the finals of the Campeonato
Metropolitano for milonga and tango. Every year more music which isn't
tango is being included on the program. There is something called
Notantango? directed by El Motivo Tango along with the music of Narcotango
directed by Carlos Libedinsky. And the milongas during the Mundial events
are featuring the recordings of different orchestras each night. Of the ten
milongas, two nights will feature tango electronico, one will feature
Piazzolla, and another will feature contemporary orchestras; all music is
selected by Horacio Godoy. The result is disaster--nondanceable music
doesn't make for good dancing.

I talked with a friend today who will be competing with her partner in the
finals of the Campeonato Metropolitano this week. Her biggest concern is
the music selection. They won't know what has been selected for their round
until minutes before they dance. If it isn't danceable (as has been the
case in previous competitions), they have to do their best to bad music.
They want to be inspired by the music. It's unfortunate that this is even
an issue in Buenos Aires, but it is since the person responsible for the
music selection doesn't make good choices.

<So, why are people attracted to music they cannot dance to? What makes them
think that its cool to dance to live music, whether they can, or not?>

Live music for social dancing is rare, so it's become a novelty. Our
parents or grandparents told us about their experiences in the ballrooms of
the 1940s dancing to the big bands. Today in BsAs there are lots of tango
groups which don't play danceable tango music. What's missing is a
communication between the musicians and the dancers--something which existed
during the 1940s where the orchestras of Troilo, Di Sarli, and others
performed for thousands.






Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:45:53 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music: live or dead
To: "Janis Kenyon" <jantango@feedback.net.ar>, "Tango-L"
<TANGO-L@mit.edu>

Janis wrote:

> I obtained the program last night for the IV Campeonato Mundial de Baile

de

> Tango which begins Thursday night with the finals of the Campeonato
> Metropolitano for milonga and tango. Every year more music which isn't
> tango is being included on the program. There is something called
> Notantango? directed by El Motivo Tango along with the music of Narcotango
> directed by Carlos Libedinsky. And the milongas during the Mundial events
> are featuring the recordings of different orchestras each night. Of the

ten

> milongas, two nights will feature tango electronico, one will feature
> Piazzolla, and another will feature contemporary orchestras; all music is
> selected by Horacio Godoy. The result is disaster--nondanceable music
> doesn't make for good dancing.

Janis may be right but still I feel that tango music should not be something
that is condemned to being conserved in antique shops and museums. New
creations in the world of the arts are often condemned by the general
public, and later, often posthumously, raised to fame. To name one exemple,
just look at the music of Astor Piazzolla. Most people complained that his
music wasn't danceable, but later, if it was not for Astor Piazzolla, many
of the younger tango dancers would have never gotten interested in tango or
started to learn the dance. New composers and musicians must be allowed into
the scene, otherwise it will die with the people who were young during the
days of the "real thing".
To me, Carlos Libedinsky plays tango alright. It is new, it is different,
but I love it. It does not have the atmosphere of the older tangos but it
has something else: a new quality that attracts and fascinates people who
come to tango from the disco and the techno scene, and gives them freedom to
experiment with tango with their rhythmical sensibilities. We need those
people.

Having said that there is one very special band which does recreate very old
music and their singer has a unique voice that reminds me of the women
singers of the Golden Age of tango: La Chicana. Check out their homepage:
www.lachicanatango.com
They may not well known in the US, as it seems from the info on their
homepage they have avoided this country on their world tours, or maybe the
US has avoided them, with visa restrictions and so on. But David brought
their CDs from BA and played them at Jose Luna's milonga in Tokyo and when
he asked me which ones of his songs I would like to have, I said this one.
Nothing else, just La Chicana, as I had never heard them before nor seen
them anywhere else, and their songs attracted me as something really unique
and outstanding among the music he played. But I found, now they are selling
their CD at HMV Tokyo ! The CD cover contained a leaflet with their lyrics,
in Spanish and in...tadaa.. German !

Here is one verse from one song:

Una rosa y un farol

Robare en la floreria una rosa colorada
te esperare como siempre bajo el farol
llegaras a medianoche despeinada, arrebolada,
me daras un beso largo y me perdiras perdon.

translation (from the German version)

I will steal a red rose from the flower shop
I will wait for you below the street lantern, as always
you will come at midnight, uncombed, with rosy cheeks
you will give me a long kiss and ask me to forgive you...


I love this stuff, it is so genuine. It is written by Acho Estol, this one
is on their newmest album, Cancion Llorada, the cried song.

Here is an excerpt from their homepage:

"La Chicana was formed in the first months of 1996 with the clear intention
of producing tango music with a rougher edge. They favour the "canyengue"
rhythms and humorous melodrama of early tango as opposed to more solemn
later flavours. They truly believe that the essence of tango lies in its
1920's spirit of rebellion and spontaneity witch puts it ideologically
closer to rock music than to the orchestral forms that popularised it in the
world since the '40s.
But they don't lack subtleties or precision ; they are solid musicians with
just a taste for improvisation and noise. All they need is the chance to
prove that tango music should thrive as popular music in the streets while
it continues to dazzle from the orchestral stand. They have performed in
many tango-bars, night clubs and milongas of Buenos Aires never failing in
the task of combining communication with soul ; danceability with pathos.
Their first independent release spans from "guardia vieja" instrumentals to
forgotten gems of the 30s' and their own songs. Since then, they have taken
advantage of numerous tours to the most dissimilar corners of the world
(Spain, Germany, Brazil, Canada, England and Senegal) to add to their music
elements of different cultures akin to tango."

Enjoy
Astrid

>







Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 03:50:36 -0500
From: "Michael Figart II" <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] music: live or dead
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>

Hello all,

My email was submitted Friday, and weekends are kinda slow on Tango-L,
so I'm still looking forward to more submissions, and private notes,
etc.

The consensus so far is overwhelmingly in support of my public
statement; we don't want any more undanceable live music.

Of course, there are many definitions, but it seems that most of the
experienced dancers in the US have virtually NEVER experienced live
music they considered really danceable.

OK; look; yes, I've been dancing for six years, and with the right
partner, I can dance to anything. I can interpret damn near anything
into a dance and make it look and feel as though it goes with the music,
with the right partner. But that doesn't mean I enjoy it.

So let's define "danceable". If more than 50% of the dancers on the
floor are actually dancing WITH the music, actually interpreting the
music into a beautiful experience, then it's danceable.......how's that?

In Texas we have Glover Gill, a fantastic musician, composer, and a
great guy. He used to run "Tosca" an orchestra that played beautiful
music, but extremely undanceable. By his own admission, he figured this
out. And now he does "Glovertango"; very hard to get together at one
time, but when he does, it's good, danceable music. I attribute it (and
he probably will also) to his now frequent visits to Buenos Aires, and a
love for the older, more rhythmic styles from the 30s and 40s.

>From a national standpoint, at least those who do festivals, we are

probably most familiar with Extasis in Denver, and Tango Lorca in St
Louis. In my opinion, by the above definition, extreeeeeeemely
undanceable. Yes, I can do it, with the perfect partner, when the moon
is full, and Saturn is alignment with Venus!!!! Generally, no fun, and
pretty yucky (my opinion, Beau!!!!)...(as I said earlier, beautiful
music, and talented players, but music sucks for dancing)

The other nationally known band is Conjunto Berretin. I first heard them
in 2005 in Portland, and was impressed. They played danceable music, and
I was really happy about it. Then I heard them again at Valentango 2006,
and was extremely disappointed; they had gone avant garde. I talked to
Sarah a few hours ago, in Seattle, and she said they were great earlier
tonight; a sentiment that was echoed by a respected tanguero who
generally feels as I do. So I'm sorry I missed it. I would love to be in
Seattle again, dancing.

Mallpasso talked about the scene in San Francisco, and said there are
some good bands there. I've not been, but I'm very suspicious when he
says things like "their music is mostly danceable - I say mostly because
sometimes they enjoy torturing the dancers with changing rhythms which
can drive us crazy."

Igor is with me....(thanks!!!) any orchestra that can't play music
written before 1952 sucks!!!!!

Astrid, I think, sort of agrees...but does not allow for beginners, etc.
She loves dancing to Piazzola, Color Tango, etc, but she's dancing with
men who can do it.

Lois seems to be in total and complete agreement with me, but then urges
people to come to the Minneapolis festival in September where TWO
orchestras are scheduled???? Whattup widdat, Lois???

And Janis comments on the inabilities of many dancers in BsAs to
interpret even great live music like that of Gente De Tango.

So....what is it? Bad bands or bad dancers?

Everything about tango is in the music. The more I dance, the more I
discover that every step, every movement, is about the music. Why do
women love dancing with the milongueros in BsAs? Because they dance
with, and interpret the music, into a dance that becomes magic. A dance
that doesn't translate the music into feeling is nothing.

So for now, give me the DJ's...Robin Thomas, Robert Hauk, Dan Boccia.
Give me D'Arienzo, DiSarli, Calo, Demare, D'Agostino, Canaro, Tanturi,
and around 2 or 3am throw in some later Pugliese and Piazzola. These
guys do a great job of determining what is needed and when. Give me the
stuff played by Daniel Borelli at Lo De Celia, and by Osvaldo Natucci at
El Beso.

So look, you guys, if you wanna play live music for us, learn to play
the music we want. Otherwise, just go ahead and play your undanceable
crap and watch your tango careers wither.

I will no longer support or attend events that promote live music at the
expense of knowledgeable dancers. I urge you to join me in expressing
your feelings to the organizers of these events.

Argentine Tango has arrived in the United States. We have reached the
point where we can call some shots. Look at how many festivals are
scheduled every year. They depend on us; the dancers.

I'm NOT down on live music; I'm down on bad live music.

Best regards,

Michael Figart II
Houston Tx





















Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:25:12 -0400
From: G?lden ?zen <gulden@tangophilia.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] live music
To: Korey Ireland <korey@kodair.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Hi Korey,

Thanks for being the voice of reason and for your respect for the
musicians who actually work very hard to please the dancers, who do
not only try to revive the music that has been already created but
who also try to create new music for the tango fans with all the
training, experience, talent and love they have! You certainly speak
for many silent members of this list or for those who do not care to
be on this list at this time. Just to let you know, yes, there are
tens and hundreds of people here in North Carolina just like you have
witnessed in Seattle or Mt.Vernon gatherings who really love the live
music to dance to and actually, Tango Lorca is at the top of their
list! I can easily tell you that they love Tango Lorca's music not
because it is the only band that they had a chance to hear live but
it is one of the best ones that speaks to their soul and mind.
Last January when we hosted our first festival after 8 years of
hosting different kinds of special dance and musicality workshops and
live music milonga weekends, we did not hesitate to bring back Tango
Lorca by popular demand! For our crowd, they have a "rock band"
effect :-) Their CDs are always in high demand and the milongas they
play live music are described as "magical" by many of our dancers.
Last January, Tango Lorca played at our festival with two great
additions: Christine Brebes and Hector del Curto! Hector now has a
wild group of fans in Durham and they definitely want him to come
back with Tango Lorca even though he has his own band :-)
Well, one reason why these guys have such a refreshing influence on
our dancers is the wonderful musicality workshop they taught together
with Fernanda Ghi! Yes, Fernanda and Guillermo were the first to
introduce us to Tango Lorca back in 2001 and they keep inspiring us
about dancing to live music each time they interpret a piece almost
like another instrument "playing" with the orchestra.
And their musicality workshops were received with great enthusiasm by
a group of ~80 dancers at our first festival.

For our upcoming festival in January 2007, when we had to consider
not having live music only because of financial limitations, our
"tangophiliacs" came together to raise funds to keep having live
music at our festivals saying that "a festival without live music is
not really a 'festive' thing"! We hope to see them succeed in their
effort to keep our festivals "alive" and to keep supporting our tango
musicians who have taken a tough path with very little chance of
feeling rewarded let alone getting rewarded in a way that could allow
artists to keep producing "the food" for our souls.

Gulden


At 01:00 AM 8/15/2006, Korey Ireland wrote:

>Hello Michael, Igor, Neil, Janis, and others concerned about live
>music for tango dancers:
>
>Thank you for sharing your perspective, its important for all of us
>to recognize there is a variety, different tastes, and that diversity
>potentially makes us more robust as a community. I'm doing the math
>in my head to work out the "contentment" ratio ...but at last nights
>milonga in Seattle I believe there were about 200 people "happily"
>dancing to live music by Conjunto Berretin, I won't claim they were
>perfectly interpreting this energetic and playful ensemble, but they
>weren't doing any worse to my eyes as a dance floor then when the DJ
>played. In fact, the energy in the room was noticeably boosted when
>the band played. Then there was the event last week in Mt. Vernon
>where Tango Lorca with special guest Hector Del Curto played for a
>room of enthusiastic dancers (apparently minus Michael and a few
>others). Again, watching the room with the band playing and later
>with the skilled Djing of Robin Thomas and Robert Hauk, I didn't feel
>a big shift in quality of dance, maybe a small change in energy
>level. Well, my point is just to give some voice in this forum to
>the hundreds of dancers who do seem to enjoy dancing to these
>groups. We hear from the few outspoken critics frequently, lets put
>it in context. I count about 300 for and 5 against.
>
>Not to dispute your claims, they are of course, your experiences, but
>just to show another view, which in fact I believe to be a majority
>perspective - live music is a delight to dance to! We are extremely
>fortunate that musicians of the caliber of Tango Lorca, Conjunto
>Berretin, and Trio Garufa (among others) chose to devote considerable
>time to learning dance repertory and style. (and yes, I can assure
>you, they do make a considerable effort to please us!) Quite the
>contrary of sucking, or being too much work, I often find dancing to
>live music a highlight of a festival weekend.
>
>Perhaps there are others reading this who can corroborate?
>
>These musicians are, by and large, warm, generous, accommodating,
>people, who put uncompensated effort to play in a difficult and
>subtle style that we will recognize as good dance music. This is a
>style that developed from an economy that employed musicians 7 days a
>week, 2 gigs a night, until we have such an economy I think its a
>little unrealistic for us to expect the same musical conditions, and
>if you want to improve the situation, hire more live music, give your
>local band more practice, and perhaps some positive feedback. When
>you criticize, blame, or vilify these musicians, you just make them
>less likely to take an interest in our art form, which ultimately is
>an impoverishment for all of us. Please, think carefully about the
>human beings who are effected when you feel it necessary to flaunt
>your superiority and criticize those who endeavor to inspire us to
>dance. Your words have an impact on the musicians who can be
>extremely discouraged by the intolerance of dancers, and for those of
>us who dream of some day dancing to live music that is as good as, or
>possibly better then the recordings we love to dance to. As I
>understand it, dancers came back to tango in the late 30s and 40s
>because a new musical style played by innovative musicians compelled
>them to dance. I'm sure at the time, there were a handful of people
>who said it was bad, the the status quo was better, change is scary
>and wrong, I imagine we're all happy that no one was swayed by these
>complaints.
>
>Respectfully,
>Korey Ireland
>





Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:35:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Live music - or "The Sleep of Reason produces
Monsters" more than ever..
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Alas, these days in Tango, much as in other aspects of popular culture, the ignorant and the uneducated "connoisseurs" carry the day. Without having the slightest idea of what good music and dance is, nor making the effort to learn, they endorse the "novelty" and the "sincere effort" of bad musicians, their applause nudging the hesitant and impressionable in joining them, these false prophets!

There's one simple way to fight back - do not dance to music you don't like...

Lucia





Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?.
Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas,
est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta).
Probalo ya!




Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:49:33 -0400
From: "Neil Liveakos" <neil.liveakos@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] live music
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<737e9d3f0608150849o3b08a072q7cca7d3e97a3baf4@mail.gmail.com>

Our Tango / Your Tango,

Korey said . . .

*there is a variety, different tastes, and that diversity potentially makes
us more robust as a community.*

Your tango is not my tango and that's OK.

If I were your age and had your skill, maybe it would be. But I'm not.

I can't do what you do so like with sour grapes I don't want to do what you
do.

What you do is incredible, amazing, sensational and spectacular.

I revere your style and honor it through my photographs.

But I don't want to dance it. I think its pathetic for old men to try to
dance like their on stage.

I didn't ask Mila to dance. I don't ask Gulden to dance.

Nothing personal. Its just that style matters a lot to me.

And I doubt that Mila or Gulden or others who fly on the floor would want to
dance with an old man like me who is so grounded when they can dance with
young men who can fly.

Its OK. I understand. I accept the facts.

I just want to dance like the old men I see in the afternoon milongas in
Buenos Aires.

That's all. My choice is mine. Yours is yours.

When you say that "variety, different tastes, and that diversity potentially
makes us more robust as a community" if you mean that I have to listen to
undanceable live music and that I have to tolerate wild and crazy people on
the floor who have no respect for other couples or who don't respect the
line of dance . . . . then I must object to your robust community.

We may be talking about music. We may be talking about danceability. Or we
may be talking about style or substance or choice. Whatever.

Just for the record, I danced to Tango Lorca at Meet in the Middle in Mt
Vernon, Missouri. I enjoyed their set. The acoustics of Karen's Ballroom are
way better than the acoustics at the Horseshoe Theater.

So just for the record, please take me off your black list of people who do
not enjoy live music. I do enjoy live muisc. I enjoy live music that is
danceable better than live music that is not. But I enjoy the recorded music
of the golden age better than any live music that I've ever heard.

That's all.

Respectfully back at you,
Neil
www.milonga.us




On 8/15/06, G?lden ?zen <gulden@tangophilia.com> wrote:

> Hi Korey,
>
> Thanks for being the voice of reason and for your respect for the
> musicians who actually work very hard to please the dancers, who do
> not only try to revive the music that has been already created but
> who also try to create new music for the tango fans with all the
> training, experience, talent and love they have! You certainly speak
> for many silent members of this list or for those who do not care to
> be on this list at this time. Just to let you know, yes, there are
> tens and hundreds of people here in North Carolina just like you have
> witnessed in Seattle or Mt.Vernon gatherings who really love the live
> music to dance to and actually, Tango Lorca is at the top of their
> list! I can easily tell you that they love Tango Lorca's music not
> because it is the only band that they had a chance to hear live but
> it is one of the best ones that speaks to their soul and mind.
> Last January when we hosted our first festival after 8 years of
> hosting different kinds of special dance and musicality workshops and
> live music milonga weekends, we did not hesitate to bring back Tango
> Lorca by popular demand! For our crowd, they have a "rock band"
> effect :-) Their CDs are always in high demand and the milongas they
> play live music are described as "magical" by many of our dancers.
> Last January, Tango Lorca played at our festival with two great
> additions: Christine Brebes and Hector del Curto! Hector now has a
> wild group of fans in Durham and they definitely want him to come
> back with Tango Lorca even though he has his own band :-)
> Well, one reason why these guys have such a refreshing influence on
> our dancers is the wonderful musicality workshop they taught together
> with Fernanda Ghi! Yes, Fernanda and Guillermo were the first to
> introduce us to Tango Lorca back in 2001 and they keep inspiring us
> about dancing to live music each time they interpret a piece almost
> like another instrument "playing" with the orchestra.
> And their musicality workshops were received with great enthusiasm by
> a group of ~80 dancers at our first festival.
>
> For our upcoming festival in January 2007, when we had to consider
> not having live music only because of financial limitations, our
> "tangophiliacs" came together to raise funds to keep having live
> music at our festivals saying that "a festival without live music is
> not really a 'festive' thing"! We hope to see them succeed in their
> effort to keep our festivals "alive" and to keep supporting our tango
> musicians who have taken a tough path with very little chance of
> feeling rewarded let alone getting rewarded in a way that could allow
> artists to keep producing "the food" for our souls.
>
> Gulden
>
>
> At 01:00 AM 8/15/2006, Korey Ireland wrote:
> >Hello Michael, Igor, Neil, Janis, and others concerned about live
> >music for tango dancers:
> >
> >Thank you for sharing your perspective, its important for all of us
> >to recognize there is a variety, different tastes, and that diversity
> >potentially makes us more robust as a community. I'm doing the math
> >in my head to work out the "contentment" ratio ...but at last nights
> >milonga in Seattle I believe there were about 200 people "happily"
> >dancing to live music by Conjunto Berretin, I won't claim they were
> >perfectly interpreting this energetic and playful ensemble, but they
> >weren't doing any worse to my eyes as a dance floor then when the DJ
> >played. In fact, the energy in the room was noticeably boosted when
> >the band played. Then there was the event last week in Mt. Vernon
> >where Tango Lorca with special guest Hector Del Curto played for a
> >room of enthusiastic dancers (apparently minus Michael and a few
> >others). Again, watching the room with the band playing and later
> >with the skilled Djing of Robin Thomas and Robert Hauk, I didn't feel
> >a big shift in quality of dance, maybe a small change in energy
> >level. Well, my point is just to give some voice in this forum to
> >the hundreds of dancers who do seem to enjoy dancing to these
> >groups. We hear from the few outspoken critics frequently, lets put
> >it in context. I count about 300 for and 5 against.
> >
> >Not to dispute your claims, they are of course, your experiences, but
> >just to show another view, which in fact I believe to be a majority
> >perspective - live music is a delight to dance to! We are extremely
> >fortunate that musicians of the caliber of Tango Lorca, Conjunto
> >Berretin, and Trio Garufa (among others) chose to devote considerable
> >time to learning dance repertory and style. (and yes, I can assure
> >you, they do make a considerable effort to please us!) Quite the
> >contrary of sucking, or being too much work, I often find dancing to
> >live music a highlight of a festival weekend.
> >
> >Perhaps there are others reading this who can corroborate?
> >
> >These musicians are, by and large, warm, generous, accommodating,
> >people, who put uncompensated effort to play in a difficult and
> >subtle style that we will recognize as good dance music. This is a
> >style that developed from an economy that employed musicians 7 days a
> >week, 2 gigs a night, until we have such an economy I think its a
> >little unrealistic for us to expect the same musical conditions, and
> >if you want to improve the situation, hire more live music, give your
> >local band more practice, and perhaps some positive feedback. When
> >you criticize, blame, or vilify these musicians, you just make them
> >less likely to take an interest in our art form, which ultimately is
> >an impoverishment for all of us. Please, think carefully about the
> >human beings who are effected when you feel it necessary to flaunt
> >your superiority and criticize those who endeavor to inspire us to
> >dance. Your words have an impact on the musicians who can be
> >extremely discouraged by the intolerance of dancers, and for those of
> >us who dream of some day dancing to live music that is as good as, or
> >possibly better then the recordings we love to dance to. As I
> >understand it, dancers came back to tango in the late 30s and 40s
> >because a new musical style played by innovative musicians compelled
> >them to dance. I'm sure at the time, there were a handful of people
> >who said it was bad, the the status quo was better, change is scary
> >and wrong, I imagine we're all happy that no one was swayed by these
> >complaints.
> >
> >Respectfully,
> >Korey Ireland
> >
>



--
Neil Liveakos
http://milonga.us





Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 00:41:37 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] live music
To: "Neil Liveakos" <neil.liveakos@gmail.com>, "Tango-L"
<tango-l@mit.edu>

And I doubt that Mila or Gulden or others who fly on the floor would want to
dance with an old man like me who is so grounded when they can dance with
young men who can fly.

; )
I hear, in BA, grounded old men are very popular with the young women.

Astrid









Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:40:05 -0600
From: "Chas Gale" <hotchango@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] live music
To: "Tango-L" <tango-L@mit.edu>

In tango, Neil, one can be grounded without flying, but no one can fly
without being grounded. I don't know Mila or Gulden well but I know that any
women worth her tango shoes first and foremost wants grounded. Flying is
optional.
Chas
www.thetangohouse.com

----- Original Message -----



Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] live music


> And I doubt that Mila or Gulden or others who fly on the floor would want
> to
> dance with an old man like me who is so grounded when they can dance with
> young men who can fly.
>
> ; )
> I hear, in BA, grounded old men are very popular with the young women.
>
> Astrid
>
>
>






Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:05:21 +0100
From: "John Ward" <johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: "Tangolist" <tango-L@mit.edu>

I don't know about the situation in the US, but here in the UK there is an
almost
universal feeling that live music (however crappy) is intrinsically better
than records (however good).

There used to be a chap who played the Kursaal in Southend who went through
the same repertoire of admittedly dire arrangements; to such an extent you
could set your watch by him ("He's just started Tie a Yellow Ribbon - it
must be 21:20"). But we regulars would much rather have had him than even
the best digitally remastered classics from the golden age of ballroom. A
pub with a sign "Live Music Tonight" outside is sure to be packed out. There
is no need to say who is playing, or for them to be any good. But the finest
records played on the best system is likely to induce the cry: "turn that
racket off please landlord".

John Ward
Bristol, UK





Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:24:37 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk, tango-L@mit.edu

I'm happy I don't have to dance in the UK under those conditions.

Manuel



visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com




>From: "John Ward" <johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk>
>To: "Tangolist" <tango-L@mit.edu>
>Subject: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:05:21 +0100
>
>I don't know about the situation in the US, but here in the UK there is an
>almost
>universal feeling that live music (however crappy) is intrinsically better
>than records (however good).
>
>There used to be a chap who played the Kursaal in Southend who went through
>the same repertoire of admittedly dire arrangements; to such an extent you
>could set your watch by him ("He's just started Tie a Yellow Ribbon - it
>must be 21:20"). But we regulars would much rather have had him than even
>the best digitally remastered classics from the golden age of ballroom. A
>pub with a sign "Live Music Tonight" outside is sure to be packed out.
>There
>is no need to say who is playing, or for them to be any good. But the
>finest
>records played on the best system is likely to induce the cry: "turn that
>racket off please landlord".
>
>John Ward
>Bristol, UK







Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:50:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Live music
To: tango-l@mit.edu


>P.S. perhaps there should be more musicality workshops
>taught by professional musicians to help dancers
>figure out how to dance to tango music of today.

O boy.

This is such a loaded statement, the mind practically boggles.

If I may, I would like to delicately dance all around this subject whilst
seeking to make a point which most can agree with. This might not be
possible given the divide, but ...


It is such an UNDERSTANDABLE divide. And yet, in fact, neither side wants
there to be one, in a perfect world. Si - ou no?

I exist kind of on both sides myself; for I have been a music
producer/engineer for 30 years. I am the biggest fan of players. I am
devoted to recording musicians; currently spending most of my waking hours
recording them. And when I have breaks, those waking hours are spent
restoring the old tango orchestras' recordings.

And when I am not working, I want to go dance. To great music for dancing.

So when I speak, it is with the voice of one used to directing musicians
to give their best performance; and the voice of a music lover needing
inspiring music to dance to.

In both circumstances, I feel I am actually in the band. When recording,
my role makes me in total command of how the musicians will sound in the
end. I'm in the band.

On a more ethereal level, when dancing, I am in the orchestra and my
partner (and myself) is/are my instrument(s). I'm in the band.

Given my profession, perhaps we can call it a given that I have a
knowledgable ear on a number of levels. For the purposes of the
discussion. If that's alright.

I am quite sure my friend would not mind my relating the following story.

He (Argentino) was a soloist in the Forever Tango Orchestra - a group of
absolutely wonderful musicians, I'm sure you'll agree.

He was young, brilliant and inspiring.

When we were sitting talking at my milonga after the show, I couldn't help
telling him that he should learn to dance. He was surprised at the
suggestion. It had never occured to him that there was something about
tango music he had to learn. I sort of went on and on about it, as you
know I can do.

I saw him next about 18 months later. He rushed up and wrapped me in a
bear hug and told me I had changed his life.

Duh! I couldn't think how that could be at all.

He said, "You told me I have to dance tango and when I was back home with
time off, I took lessons. It changed everything about tango for me!!"

Now, I am aware that very few of the musicians in the old days actually
danced tango. But however they knew it, they knew how to make music FOR
DANCING.

Piazzolla's cross to bear (and boy - he felt the burden for a long time)
was that he didn't make music for dancing. Sit down and listen, por favor.
This is SERIOUS music.

After he left Troilo, it was 20 years before his compositions were heard -
and then only in stage shows done to choreography.

His vast influence on musicians after he matured is still resonating like
an earthquake.

He is a musician's musician/composer. You hear Astor, you want to play
like that.

Rare indeed is the musician or arranger who can play with that inspiration
and still make it great for DANCING.The subtle distintion is mostly lost
on even the exceptionally brilliant musican. They read music on a page.
They play it with feeling. But that doesn't make it danceable - especially
through a long set.

Even if a modern orchestra (outside Argentina) plays Don Juan and other
standards, most are infected with the musician's perspective - not the
dancer's. They want to show you how great the music is when played as good
as they can play it. It is an honest wish. If they don't dance, they might
not intuitively know what makes good DANCE music. That's what a musician
does all his life. Play for dancing? Huh. Not many musicians want to lower
themselves. To do so can have a faintly distasteful flavour to many
musicians. It's not in their history.


Let me keep parsing points here because there are subtle distinctions to
make.

I love to dance to Piazzolla's Milonga del Angel (Tango:Hora Zero). IT IS
MADE FOR DANCING (even if he didn't give a damn whether we could or not).
But let us agree that beginners could have a hard time trying to figure
out what to do.

There is a Montreal group called Sweatshop Tango led by accordionist
Jonathan Goldman who brilliantly play Piazzolla - AND IT IS FOR DANCING if
you want to.

But I can name you quite a few orchestras who play this song and other
beautiful Piazzolla pieces (and even traditional tangos) where you just
CAN'T dance because the musicians were making pretty music to LISTEN to
(or for themselves). I think they don't know the difference.

I would like my Argentinean musician friend from the Forever Tango
Orchestra to have a chat with them.

Know what I mean?


I hate only "this" or "that" alternatives; but we have on one side of this
divide people who like LIVE music and will dance to ... kind-of -
anything; and on the other side people who like TO DANCE and are fairly
good at it and who like live music IF IT MOVES THEM WHEN SOMEONE IS IN
THEIR ARMS.

The latter group gets antsy real fast when the music doesn't measure up to
what a good dj can do for them by playing the hot tango hits. We're so
emotionally attached to The Moment in the embrace. When these people are
faced with a choice between dancing to Pugliese, Di Sarli, D'Arienzo, Calo
or Canaro or ... some local people who rehearsed for a bit and then sit
playing much the same music for 50 minutes 3 times in a night ...

A live orchestra brings a sense of "event" to the moment.

That sense is wonderful in its own way. It is more important to some
people than connecting intimately with the music and a partner.

New people to tango especially are attracted to a live orchestra. The
concept of live music is not one I want to argue with!

But it has seemed to me for a long time that when an orchestra is playing
at an event (outside a Color Tango coming to town, which in most places is
MORE than an event), the old vet dancers tend to show up late or not at
all. They like the musicans to have a gig. They like the idea of it all.
But they can't dance to what doesn't move them.

A live orchestra that can capture these people is a hot group. They are
out there. But they are few and far between.

They are very smart people. They keep their sets short. They are always
thinking of DANCING - not brilliant playing. Their playing is infused with
PASSION - not "just" excellence. Their sense of timing and variety in
programming is impeccable.

Probably, they have consulted dancers about how to put their sets together.

How many orchestras loosely follow a tanda-type playlist?

The smart ones do. But there aren't many, are there?

Most will play 5 similar tangos, a milonga, 3 tangos, a vals, 4 more
tangos all sounding pretty much the same. That's a boring 50 minute set
for a dance lover.

I interviewed maestro Roberto Alvarez of Color Tango (it's on my website).

He is careful about using singers. He keeps his sets at around 40 minutes
if he can. He varies the emotional pitch of his music. BECAUSE HE WANTS TO
HAVE PEOPLE DANCING (and he learned from being with Pugliese for so many
years).

I would like him to chat to live orchestra leaders as well.

So ...

Everyone understands why people really enjoy live music. Everyone is happy
for other people having enjoyment. Everyone surely is greatly pleased that
musicians can be paid for making music. Agreement all around there.

The ones who are not so discriminate, for whatever reasons, about what
they dance to do not see the "dancers" (for want of a better description)
point of view.

It is not the novelty of people playing in front of them that attracts. It
is the heartbeat of tango for dancing that attracts.

There are a heck of a lot of fine musicians playing around who don't get
what the difference is between beautiful music for listening and beautiful
music for dancing.

We hope they finish by 11:30 or so so we can show up then and really enjoy
our tango.

So, without wanting to annoy anyone, I say:

Perhaps there should be more musicality workshops
taught by dancers to help musicians figure out how to play tango music of
today when they are hired to play for dancers.


























Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:00:57 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Live music
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Keith Elshaw <keith@totango.net>

Keith Elshaw wrote:

> So, without wanting to annoy anyone, I say:
>
> Perhaps there should be more musicality workshops
> taught by dancers to help musicians figure out how to play tango music of
> today when they are hired to play for dancers.
>

Hi Keith, list,

I agree with your analysis. Most of the endless argument on this list
comes from the inability of
a producer and a consumer to see each other's point.

Musicians create music for an audience of paying customers, and whether
they choose to go
down the path of playing at live ballrooms or in the studio is an
economic one.

If the community can offer a constant source of income via the live
music opportunities
the supply will be created whether or not the talent exists.

(Kind of like how the Filipino dance bands in my city are adding tango
to their repertoire
because of the increasing number of patron request -- and they play them
on the electric
guitar!).

When someone says, "musicians don't know to play music to satisfy the
dancers", I think it is
the parallel of "dancers don't know how to perform to satisfy the audience".

Dancers have very intense personal opinions of how to dance, and most of
it matters only to
the two people involved in the dance.

But when a dancer is given a task to perform for an audience, he has an
obligation to get off
his high artistic horses and think satisfying the low-brow audience
expectation as well.

At the very least, this means wearing a suitable costume, and
choreographing a few technical
moves to reflect the highlights of the music.

Most dancers won't even be able to pass this test, so what position are
they in to criticize the
musicians?

Kace
tangosingapore.com







Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:07:09 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Live music
To: "Kace" <kace@pacific.net.sg>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Keith Elshaw <keith@totango.net>

Kace, Singapore:

> But when a dancer is given a task to perform for an audience, he has an
> obligation to get off
> his high artistic horses and think satisfying the low-brow audience
> expectation as well.
> At the very least, this means wearing a suitable costume, and
> choreographing a few technical
> moves to reflect the highlights of the music.
> Most dancers won't even be able to pass this test, so what position are
> they in to criticize the
> musicians?
>

This reminds me of the autobiography of Isadora Duncan:

When she (14) and her mother had almost finished off the box of tomatoes
they had bought from her last money as food supply for a week, she went to
audition for someone who ran the Mason's lodge club or something to get a
job at last. She danced her Greek dance in her blue tunic. He told her, it
was nice but that it needed "more pepper" and a costume that showed more
leg, to satisfy the audience. She told him she would be back the next day
with the costume and the"pepper".

A colleague of mine went to Sydney and visited the theater and the opera,
and said, she very much enjoyed the show of the dance between the ballerina
and the cripple.

Well, that aside, the basic condition for dancing is that the music played
needs a regular definable beat. Believe it or not, most music actually has.
Some bands of old tango afficionados in Tokyo have such a regular beat, it
drives me to disctraction.

Astrid







Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:44:12 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Live music
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>


On Aug 15, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Keith Elshaw wrote:

> ...Rare indeed is the musician or arranger who can play with that
> inspiration
> and still make it great for DANCING.The subtle distintion is mostly
> lost
> on even the exceptionally brilliant musican. They read music on a
> page.
> They play it with feeling. But that doesn't make it danceable -
> especially
> through a long set.
>
> Even if a modern orchestra (outside Argentina) plays Don Juan and
> other
> standards, most are infected with the musician's perspective - not the
> dancer's. They want to show you how great the music is when played
> as good
> as they can play it. It is an honest wish. If they don't dance,
> they might
> not intuitively know what makes good DANCE music. That's what a
> musician
> does all his life. Play for dancing? Huh. Not many musicians want
> to lower
> themselves. To do so can have a faintly distasteful flavour to many
> musicians. It's not in their history.
> ...

I agree a lot with Keith's comments above.

As a festival organizer I feel it is important to offer some variety
during the weekend, and also serve the interests of a variety of
people. This includes live music. Yes, even despite the fact that I
produce festivals oriented to social dancing, which attract a lot of
people who really know tango music and really love the traditional
music of the 1930s & 40s.

The Friday event usually features our local orchestra, Extasis, who
tend to play in a late Pugliese style.

This event is sponsored by a separate milonga organizer key to the
growth of tango in Denver (what kind of a nut would give up a busy
Friday night at her night club for a chance that tango might someday
make money?!). She has made a career of featuring live music and
supporting live musicians. I respect her choice, and agree that it is
important to honor and support our live musicians. If i were running
the milonga, I would have the orchestra play earlier in the evening,
perhaps in a concert setting, then move into their more danceable
sets, before letting a DJ bring us all the way into the night. Also,
things are better when Extasis doubles up their voices to make an
octet with cellos and violins. Everything becomes a lot more full and
powerful.


First, what I notice about most the working orchestras is that their
focus is the Tango music of the 1960s, either Pugliese or Piazzola
dominated. If there is a singer the orientation is the concert tango
of the 1950s &60s., not Maure, Calo or Rufino, etc. That is fine,
that is what they like. I also like late Pugliese, and I like
Piazzola. Frankly, I really dislike the concert singers of the 1950s.

Second, I agree that the modern orchestras feel the need to feature
their musicianship and arranging skills. They don't realize that the
dancers are PART OF THE ORCHESTRA, meaning that the orchestra needs
to leave space inside the music for the dancers. They are usually
quite busy trying to fill every nook and cranny of the music with
hooks and excitement. Maybe that is just a modern sensibility. Older
music was pre TV, pre video games.

It is the same thing in Jazz. After John Coltrane jazz musicians have
to make a career choice whether to be modern or vintage. The swing
revival was pretty cool because it spawned a number of revival bands,
like the Squirrel Nut Zippers or Indigo Swing. They aren't as good as
30s Duke Ellington, but they found the groove that dancers like.
Also, we have a huge, live jazz (and swing) tradition in every high
school in the US. Every college basketball game has a hot swing band
with a trumpeter that can hit the high notes.

I think that even in Argentina, tango is more nostalgic, rather than
living.


i would really like to see more tango orchestras pursuing.a "revival"
sound instead of a modern sound.



Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207







Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:22:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Live music
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Kace (tangosingapore.com) writes:

>
> But when a dancer is given a task to perform for an audience,
> he has an obligation to get off his high artistic horses and
> think satisfying the low-brow audience expectation as well.
>
> At the very least, this means wearing a suitable costume, and
> choreographing a few technical moves to reflect the highlights
> of the music.
>
> Most dancers won't even be able to pass this test, so what
> position are they in to criticize the musicians?

Where on Earth did *this* come from. We're social
dancers here, not professionals selling tickets. And as
consumers with respect to the band, we'll criticize
musicians any way we feel like, thanks.

As for me, I prefer dancing live to excellent Golden
Age musicians. Since they all seem to be dead, and since
most local amateur tango bands don't even begin to approach
that quality, I usually (not always) prefer dancing with
recordings to dancing with live music. I just do, and
I don't see why I or anyone else should have to feel guilty
about it. Dancing to Color Tango live was wonderful,
definitely more exciting than dancing to a recording. But
they are outstanding professional musicians, not amateurs.

As an amateur musician myself, I do enjoy watching the
local tango bands play, and consider their presence at
tango festivals to be a positive thing. I'll dance some,
but I usually spend more time just watching them play, interact
with each other, etc. But most of the time (again, not
always--when a local band really does click on a particular
tango, it's great), I have better luck searching for my own
transcendent tango dancing moments with the classic recordings.
Most local bands just aren't tight enough, and they don't have
the intensity of the Golden Age orchestras (not to mention
they're missing the wonderful vocals). Plus many of them pick
the "wrong" music to play. I put "wrong" in quotes because,
of course, that is a very subjective thing, personal to each
dancer.

I can scarcely imagine how thrilling it must have been
to dance to live music during the Golden Age, with the
classic orchestras and singers. Out on the floor, dressed to
the nines. Breathtaking. Probably somewhere right up there
with dancing to The Beatles live in small clubs in Hamburg's
red-light district circa 1962. Missed out on that, too.

Huck





Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:05:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Live music P.S. for musicians
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Thank you all for allowing me to be so bold in my posts this week.

With your indulgence, I wish live orchestras (including the esteemed
favorite Color Tango) to get with the program about milongas.


YOU PLAY THEM ALL AT LEAST 4 BPM TOO FAST.

THERE IS NO FIRE YOU HAVE TO RUN TO/FROM!!

MILONGAS ARE NOT FOR SHOWING HOW FAST YOU CAN PLAY!

They are for embracing a partner and feeling the excitement the Argentines
uncovered in the movement of bodies in a cool, synchopated, sensual way.

We're not on speed, folks.

You try and dance to your music and you'll understand why we sit and frown
when you play that silly way.

Fast, fast, fast milongas like you hear on recent records are for STAGE
choreography.

You're on stage - but you're not making music for a show.

Have a heart.









Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:28 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Live music
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Huck wrote

> > But when a dancer is given a task to perform for an audience,
> > Most dancers won't even be able to pass this test, so what
> > position are they in to criticize the musicians?
>
> Where on Earth did *this* come from.

>From not recognising that social dancers are completely different

animals from show dancers, apparently.

> I prefer dancing live to excellent Golden Age musicians. ...
> Most local bands just aren't tight enough, and they don't have the
> intensity. .... Plus many of them pick the "wrong" music to play.

Quite.

Here's a thought for those seeking to make an objective assessment. Good
DJs play the best music. Ever heard a good DJ play a set of Di Sarli,
Tango Lorca, D'Arienzo, Conjunto Berretin, Canaro, and Trio Garufa?

Yes, live bands has the value of novelty, spontaneity and as Keith put
it a sense of "event", such that no festival would be complete without.
But no, that does not mean their music is good, or even good enough, for
dancing.

Keith also wrote:

> Perhaps there should be more musicality workshops taught by dancers to
> help musicians figure out how to play tango music of today when they
> are hired to play for dancers.

Hear hear.

Thanks too to Tom for an excellent post.

Chris


























Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:55:22 -0600
From: "Chas Gale" <hotchango@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: "Tango-L" <tango-L@mit.edu>

When I'm standing in The Mercury Cafe or The Tango House, spaces that says
"tango" in a way precious few others can boast, and the symphony quality
musicians of Extasis projects the opening notes of La Bordona or Mi Dolor or
Danzarin or any one of another 30 history laden tango anthems, and my belly
wells up in emotional gratitude for circumstances that prove dreams do come
true, and the realized opportunity to exercise my hard earned tango skills
in a storybook setting all come to bear so profoundly that I begin to wonder
how life could be so good, I quickly look around to check that The Mighty
Cosmic Muffin is not about to tap me on the shoulder and say, "I'm sorry Mr.
Gale, you are not worthy".

Awesome, a term so often misused truly applies here. Life doesn't get any
better than this.

Chas "Looking forward to Labor Day and Extasis at The Mercury in Denver."
Gale
http://www.thetangohouse.com


----- Original Message -----



Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 12:31 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] music; live or dead


> Hello everybody,
>
> OK, not much happening on the list today,
> so.....here's an issue about which I would like to see
> some opinions. I don't recall having read anything
> about it in the past.
>
> I want to know why some dancers seem attracted to live
> bands. I've heard, and danced to (or at least tried to
> dance to), Extasis, Tango Lorca, Tango Berretin, Color
> Tango, and Glovertango/Tosca.
>
> Glovertango is good dancing music (Tosca was their old
> incarnation; no bueno por bailar), Tango Berretin was
> good about two years ago, when I first heard them, but
> deteriorated quickly. Tango Lorca and Extasis have
> always been bad (for dancing), in my opinion.
>
> But wait....they are all very talented musicians, the
> music they play is beautiful and lovely, and I respect
> them all for their hard work and for their love of
> tango music. I was a musician (guitar, sax, piano),
> and I appreciate the hard work that goes into their
> music. The way Alex Krebs learned bandoneon is nothing
> short of miraculous.
>
> But it sucks trying to dance to it. I can't stand it.
> It's TORTURE. I don't want to work hard trying to
> interpret music into dance. I CAN do it. I've been
> dancing for quite a while, and have reached a level
> where I can actually put together some steps that move
> WITH that sort of music. But it's no fun; it just
> sucks....big time.
>
> And when I look at the dance floor at one of these
> events, it doesn't work. There is music, and there are
> people dancing, but the two don't go together at all.
> It's like you could be playing jazz, or classical
> music, and the people just keep on dancing, not having
> any clue that what they're doing has nothing to do
> with the music.
>
> About six weeks ago I went to a milonga here in
> Houston. Sarah was out of town, so I decided to check
> it out, and hopefully have a good time, and a good
> dance or two. The organizer is a very talented dancer
> and can dance to anything. I believe he has a
> background in ballet, and can swing, jitterbug, tango,
> etc, etc, you name it. Very, very impressive.
>
> I stayed about 45 minutes, danced a couple tandas. The
> music SUCKED...... for dancing. He played 1960 and
> later Pugliese, and Piazzola-type stuff. Color Tango,
> etc..... I can dance to it, and he can, but nobody
> else in this city can. They can't even come close to
> interpreting this stuff into a dance.
>
> I was just going to leave, but I forced myself to go
> back and ask him where the hell he came up with this
> music, and what made him play it. He said that it is
> beautiful, fantastic music. I agreed, "Yes, it is
> gorgeous, beautiful music, and very pretty to listen
> to, but LOOK AT THE DANCE FLOOR. Is anybody dancing
> WITH the music?"
>
> His response was that it was a good "challenge" for
> them.
>
> My response is this (and this is my opinion); I pay
> damn good money for plane tickets, hotels, and
> entrance fees to attend festivals all over the US.
> Keep your live bands out of the festivals that I pay
> to support. If one of these bands wants to learn how
> to play music just like DiSarli, D'Arienzo, Calo,
> Troilo, etc, from the '30s, '40s, 50s....that would be
> great. I could really get into it. But until that
> happens, get the hell out of my milongas.
>
> You don't ever hear this kind of music in the milongas
> in Buenos Aires. How do the old milongueros interpret
> the music so well? Because they've heard the song
> about 5000 times. And there is always something new to
> it, something you never heard before, or something
> that finally sinks in, and feels a different way, with
> a different way to dance it. A pause/suspension in a
> new spot, or a traspie where you never put one before.
>
> I have no qualms about alternative music; I dance to
> good blues all the time. I can dance tango to blues,
> country, pop, rock. But why do people think that
> "alternative tango music" has to have some sort of
> "connection" to tango??????? Gotan Project and
> Narcotango have a couple things that are just "ok",
> but by and large their stuff is NOT to dance to. Might
> as well just take up break dancing and the fine art of
> "rap".
>
> As you can tell, I feel very strongly about this
> subject, and it's importance is growing, to me, at
> least. With the proliferation of tango festivals in
> the US, it may very well soon become a deciding factor
> in which festivals I choose to attend. I will NOT be
> present at the Mercury Cafe milongas in Denver
> anymore. But next time you're there look around; many
> important teachers/dancers no longer attend,
> (but I'll be there Saturday and Sunday, at least). I'm
> looking forward to the Atlanta festival next year
> (where there is no thought of live music, yet). And I
> was not in attendance during the live music session in
> Mt Vernon last weekend.
>
> An aside here....Marilyn, I love your place; the
> Mercury is a great venue, even with the moguls, but
> it's way too crowded now, and I'm sick of the live
> music. I was there for the first time five years ago,
> when all of the milongas were at your place, and that
> experience was instrumental in determining my tango
> fate. But it's way, way, way out of hand, the
> festivals have
> outgrown your capacity. There are many who choose not
> to attend anymore because there is no place to sit,
> stand, walk, dance, put stuff, etc......please release
> Tom and let him hold an alternate event that night for
> those of us too claustrophobic to attend.
>
> I know that many out there seem to love live music.
> And I will do my best to understand, and see it from
> your side, so I'm looking forward to reading your
> responses, either private or on the list. It may be
> that I am in such a minority that I must just learn to
> live with it, or move to Buenos Aires!
>
> So, why are people attracted to music they cannot
> dance to? What makes them think that its cool to dance
> to live music, whether they can, or not?
>
> Best wishes to all,
>
> Michael Figart II, Houston Tx
>
>








Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:08:38 -0500
From: Korey Ireland <korey@kodair.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Live music
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>


Keith,
thank you for your thoughtful and inspiring reply. I hope musician's
and dancers alike are interested in bridging this "divide" and I
think you offer insights that help.

some questions:



>
> How many orchestras loosely follow a tanda-type playlist?
>
>

I'm curious. I've bounced this question off a few knowledgeable
tango-philes and have yet to find a complete answer, did the idea of
tandas exist for live bands in the 40s or is this something that came
later with DJs? What a strange thing to ask the bands to emulate a
format that may have originated from tango's lean years when the
dance couldn't support live ensembles....



>
> The ones who are not so discriminate, for whatever reasons, about what
> they dance to do not see the "dancers" (for want of a better
> description)
> point of view.
>
>

This needs more parsing Keith. There is more then one type of
"dancer." In fact, I'm coming to believe the difference is really
less about one's depth of understanding and more about one's
personality type. Some of us like surprises, some like
predictability, or control. Dancers who like surprises take often
delight in live music. Whether they are newbies, or seasoned
veterans. Perhaps with seasoning comes a deeper appreciation of the
classics and more empathy for the predictable, but where the
personality embraces the unknown, there is still room to enjoy live
music.


>
> There are a heck of a lot of fine musicians playing around who
> don't get
> what the difference is between beautiful music for listening and
> beautiful
> music for dancing.
>
>

Some of them are trying earnestly to figure it out, I hope your
comments will help them.



> So, without wanting to annoy anyone, I say:
>
> Perhaps there should be more musicality workshops
> taught by dancers to help musicians figure out how to play tango
> music of
> today when they are hired to play for dancers.
>
>
>

Bravo. Its a great idea. Now we can all debate about who is
qualified to teach such a workshop :-)

Actually we're brainstorming about an orchestra tipica training
weekend here in KC, and I suspect there will be some extensive
consideration of the issue of "dance-ability." Perhaps this list
could generate some concrete and constructive advice that we might
undertake towards making this project more dance friendly. Please,
somethings besides recommending that we listen to the DJ hit list,
believe it or not, for many musicians this is the starting point....

Can dancers tolerate tempo changes (like we often find in Pugliese,
Troilo, Calo)?
Are syncopas (used by every golden era dance orchestra) ok?
how about breaks (cortes) where the beat drops out for a moment?
I'm particularly interested to know if these musical surprises only
work if the dancers know the arrangement/recording.

Well, Tango-L, are you up for doing something constructive?

-Korey








Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:51:56 -0700
From: "Neeraj Korde" <nkorde@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Live music
To: "Korey Ireland" <korey@kodair.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<19bbdd920608161351p210ee746qc242f49dfd4ff40@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Korey,
Interesting post. Here are some of my own thoughts...

> >
> > The ones who are not so discriminate, for whatever reasons, about what
> > they dance to do not see the "dancers" (for want of a better
> > description)
> > point of view.
> >
> >
>
> This needs more parsing Keith. There is more then one type of
> "dancer." In fact, I'm coming to believe the difference is really
> less about one's depth of understanding and more about one's
> personality type. Some of us like surprises, some like
> predictability, or control. Dancers who like surprises take often
> delight in live music. Whether they are newbies, or seasoned
> veterans. Perhaps with seasoning comes a deeper appreciation of the
> classics and more empathy for the predictable, but where the
> personality embraces the unknown, there is still room to enjoy live
> music.


This can be extended to the art of DJing in general too. On one hand the DJ
is guessing how to manipulate the crowd or how to adjust to the crowd's
need. On the other hand the crowd is thinking how the DJ will adjust to
their tastes or how will he surprise them. So my theory is if the DJ plays
'good' music without making obvious mistakes(like playing 2 vals tandas in a
row, or 2 really fast tango tandas in a row) the crowd will enjoy it. If the
tandas adapt to the crowd's energy graph that is good. If not then that will
still be taken as a 'pleasant surprise'. Of course as I recently discovered
there is lot more to DJing than the way I put it here. But overall I still
believe this is true.

>
> > So, without wanting to annoy anyone, I say:
> >
> > Perhaps there should be more musicality workshops
> > taught by dancers to help musicians figure out how to play tango
> > music of
> > today when they are hired to play for dancers.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Bravo. Its a great idea. Now we can all debate about who is
> qualified to teach such a workshop :-)
>
> Actually we're brainstorming about an orchestra tipica training
> weekend here in KC, and I suspect there will be some extensive
> consideration of the issue of "dance-ability." Perhaps this list
> could generate some concrete and constructive advice that we might
> undertake towards making this project more dance friendly. Please,
> somethings besides recommending that we listen to the DJ hit list,
> believe it or not, for many musicians this is the starting point....
>
> Can dancers tolerate tempo changes (like we often find in Pugliese,
> Troilo, Calo)?


For tempo changes I would think familiarity with the music is important.
Personally I did not like Pugliese in the beginning because he kept changing
his tempo. But after getting more familiar with his music I totally love
him.

Are syncopas (used by every golden era dance orchestra) ok?


Ok? they are awesome I think. The more the better. After taking a string of
musicality classes I understand how important the role of syncopas is in the
golden age orchestras. Disarli donato use syncopa or syncopa like sounds
extensively. If you can play with them like demare does, you rock.

how about breaks (cortes) where the beat drops out for a moment?


Breaks are something that make a song danceable in the most obvious way. I
love them.

I'm particularly interested to know if these musical surprises only

> work if the dancers know the arrangement/recording.

Depends, if it is in a predictable pattern the dancers will get them
immediately. If is in a non obvious pattern like bigi then the dancers will
be thrown off but will enjoy it. If they are random the they will like them
over time.


In general i think anything from the golden age is tried and tested and
should be a good candidate for consideration in modern orchestras. Of course
you can have your personal stamp on it but for most cases I think golden age
music is not just 'good sounding' but also more sophisticated than most
contemporary tango even in a plain mathematical way.

> Well, Tango-L, are you up for doing something constructive?

-Korey


you bet
Neeraj





Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:34:38 -0600
From: "PATRICK CROTTY" <patcrotty@msn.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Live music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Composers and musicians make music. Social partnered dancers pick and choose some musical genre to dance. The dancers then create a dance genre they think and feel reflects and is in harmony with the music. Time goes by, and the music changes. At first the dancers resist. Then the better dancers adapt. After a while the others dancers see what the better dancers are doing to reflect the music, and they copy. Then things settle down for a few years. Sorry Virginia, then the cycle repeats itself. The history of music and social dancing bear this out. If you continue to ignore this reality, after a number of years, you will have no one to dance with. There is a Tango Orchestra in Denver, Extasis. They are not the advance guard of tango orchestras, but they are somewhat past Pugliese. The better tango dancers in Denver can produce an authentic Argentine Tango that is in harmony with Extasis music. The average tango dancer can also enjoy Extasis if they are willing to listen and!
deliver good basics until they get a feel for the music. Listening is the key and willingness to listen is paramount. If you are a tango dancer and are in Denver while Extasis is playing, come out and listen to this music, get up and dance to it. By the time the first set is over, you will not be disappointed with yourself. After the third set you will have a smile on your face, and so will your partner. Remember what all the great dancers say when ask what they were thinking about while dancing - "listening to the music".





Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:30:14 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: "Tango-L" <tango-L@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>

Hello:
I've read a lot. I'm not responding to any particular person. Music has nuance and live music sounds different from recorded music. I remember a musical group that was in Washington, DC. Whatever they played, it sounded like milonga. There were times I was confused. I thought "this is a tango, but it doesn't like a tango."

After you hear a particular recording a number of times, you learn when the last note comes. Here are two Pugliese examples; Jueves and Barra Querida. Each of them builds to a climax at the NEXT to the last note. It sounds like !! There's a slight pause followed by a soft note which sounds like a soft period. This is the resolution to the climax. A live orchestra can build to the climax at a different rate than the Pugliese recording and the resolution can come at a different time. This is interpretation. I'm NOT calling it an error.

A live orchestra will always sound different from recorded music. The recording could have a different number of instruments and their interpretation could be different from the recording you are familiar. Even several recordings of the same tango sound different. My favorite tango is Quejas de Bandeneon (from "The Tango Lesson.") I only like the version on the soundtrack (Troilo's 1958 recording.) I don't care for any other recording even any other Troilo recording. Only the 1958 version.

I wonder if we have become so familiar with a particular version, we've fallen into a trap of dancing the same way to that version and whenever another version comes along, some of us are lost.

Just wondering.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Going to the orthopedist tomorrow for an examination of my ankle and collarbone after a terrible car collision

I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango (The wait is killing me!!!)




Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:43:50 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Live music
To: "Neeraj Korde" <nkorde@gmail.com>, "Korey Ireland"
<korey@kodair.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>


> > Can dancers tolerate tempo changes (like we often find in Pugliese,
> > Troilo, Calo)?
>
>
> For tempo changes I would think familiarity with the music is important.
> Personally I did not like Pugliese in the beginning because he kept

changing

> his tempo. But after getting more familiar with his music I totally love
> him.

For some people, excactly the strong accents and expressiveness are the
reason they love Pugliese. For a music lover like me, raised to a daily
background of classical music, it was much easier to get into Pugliese and
Piazzolla than into crummy old recordings with noise, that had exactly the
same tempo through the whole song, and sometimes song after song. (All this
changed once I discovered De Caro and fell in love with the atmosphere)

>
> Are syncopas (used by every golden era dance orchestra) ok?
>
>
> Ok? they are awesome I think. The more the better. After taking a string

of

> musicality classes I understand how important the role of syncopas is in

the

> golden age orchestras. Disarli donato use syncopa or syncopa like sounds
> extensively. If you can play with them like demare does, you rock.
>
> how about breaks (cortes) where the beat drops out for a moment?
>
>
> Breaks are something that make a song danceable in the most obvious way. I
> love them.

I had the most amazing experience last Sunday, something that could have
been straight out of Zen, and I use that word carefuly as I know what it
actually means.
I was dancing with the guy who competes in tap dancing competitions. After
doing all kinds of rhythmical play, corridas, traspie and whatnot, there was
one slower song, no idea what it was, quite interesting and full of
variations. We were dancing, and suddenly, the music stopped, suspended in
midair, much longer than a usual syncopa (somehow I don't think it was
between two songs). The man seemed to know this song, and he continued the
turn we were in, our legs swung forward together, hit the ground, step, back
together, step, I could almost hear the echo of those steps in the silence,
and then the music came back on, the song continued, and we were still
perfectly on the beat !
Wow !











Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:05:01 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] music; live or dead
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> writes:

>
> I wonder if we have become so familiar with a particular
> version, we've fallen into a trap of dancing the same way
> to that version

I don't think so. Being intimately familiar with
the music to the tiniest detail so you always know
exactly what's coming is a huge plus, not a liability.
It allows you to really dance to the music expressively
instead of just floundering around more or less aimlessly
or randomly. That doesn't mean you have to make the same
exact moves everytime that particular version is played.
It just means that since you know what's coming, you
can improvise with something that fits the music.

Think of Bill Murray in the movie "Ground Hog's Day."
He always knew exactly what was coming, but he did
something different each time, and was able to get quite
creative. :)

> and whenever another version comes along, some of us are lost.

Well the less we intimately know the music playing,
the more we *are* lost, at least with respect to really
dancing to that piece of music in particular, as opposed
to just doing tango moves vaguely following the beat, or
worse, with the music as just some sort of random backdrop
that's pleasant enough, but whose individuality is not
really all that important.

This comes up in other dances as well. If you hang
around West Coast Swing dancers, you'll always here
them talking about how the better dancers always "hit
the breaks," as they put it. A lot harder to do that
with creativity, authority, and panache, if you don't
know the music and are dancing to a tune you're hearing
for the first time.

Huck





Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:20 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Live music
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Korey Ireland <korey@kodair.com> asked

> Can dancers tolerate tempo changes (like we often find in Pugliese,
> Troilo, Calo)?

What tempo changes in Troilo and Calo? The Troilo and Calo I hear in
milongas don't have tempo changes. Listening through the favourite
albums of each here (Las Estrellas, El Immortal Pacheco) finds no
significant tempo changes. (That's not counting the occasional
non-danceable vocal bit at the end in which the tempo disappears.)

The Troilo dance classics in particular are an archetype of rock-steady.
Without which all their nifty dodging around the beat would make
little sense.

Can you give some examples of tempo changes "often found in Calo and
Troilo"?

Chris





Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:44 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Live music
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

> El Immortal Pacheco

Nice to find my spelling checker has a sense of humour! ;)

"El Immortal Pichuco", of course.

Chris





Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:51:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: bradley cox <bradcoxmusic@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] live music

As a non-dancer, musician it has been quite interesting to follow this discussion. Many of the comments about what bands need to provide for dancers at a milonga have been presented in terms of market economics--the dancers, as the buyers, should control what the musicians, as the sellers, play. The problem with hiring an existing musical group is that the buyer, in hiring the group, also hires that group?s repertoire, and it sounds like, for many of you, that it is not the repertoire you want for dancing. I would suggest that a better approach would be to simply contract exactly the music you want played at your milonga. By this I don?t mean that you should hire an existing group, and then assume (incorrectly) that the by paying for their service of playing music, you have also paid for the band to transcribe, learn and rehearse any repertoire you request, but rather to contract exactly what you want, thus forming the group and repertoire from the ground up. If you have
the money, you will have no problem getting the musicians and arrangers together, that?s just how capitalism works.

I play piano for Tango Lorca, a group whose repertoire has been described in the discussion at hand as everything from ?magical? to music that ?sucks,? but I also do a lot of commercial work in which the client contracts exactly what they want, and I provide that service. I would be thrilled to arrange and organize a group for any milonga on such a purely commercial contractual basis--Truly, I would jump at the chance, as it would likely be a very large and lucrative project. If any one is interested please sent me a detailed list of the material you want played and the recordings on which you want the transcriptions based, and I will be happy to send you a bid for the service.

Look forward to hearing from you,

Brad Cox





Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:16:37 -0500
From: "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org>
Subject: [Tango-L] More on Live Music vs. Recorded Classics from a
Musician's Perspective
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
<D3F0BAFA1ACEF34FB82AB881EF8E4D9105B57D7B@hqmail01.mpr.org>

Hi-

My name is Bob Barnes and I'm the bandleader/accordionist/bandoneonist for the Mandr?gora Tango Orchestra in Minneapolis (http://www.mandragoratango.com <http://www.mandragoratango.com/> ). We've been playing a Sunday night Milonga for about 4.5 years and have only begun to scratch the surface on learning what is "real tango". We get 40-80 dancers every Sunday, and quite a few listeners as well.

I wanted to make some more observations on live music vs. recorded classics:

1) Almost all Tango is played off of musical arrangements, like classical music. Getting good arrangements outside of Argentina is extremely difficult. Most bands make their own and protect them jealously. Most of what is available for purchase is for Orquesta Tipica (4 bandos, 4 violins, piano, bass), Sextet (2 bandos, 2 violin, piano, bass) or "Piazzolla Quintet" (bando, violin, guitar, piano, bass). Unless your band is one of these formations, you will probably have to make your own arrangements. This is huge barrier to entry for a lot of Tango bands. Many bands play in a style called "a la parrilla" ("on the grill"), which is closer to how jazz players play: the sheet music has the melody and some chords and the band fills in the rest. It is a lot easier to start a band and play this way, but it may not sound as authentic (at first). Our band started out playing this way, but we hit a plateau and started the long process of converting to written arrangements.

2) Live music draws in newcomers. We (half-jokingly) call ourselves "Ambassadors of Tango". In addition to our weekly milonga, we play a lot of music festivals, concerts in the parks, operas, weddings, parties, mitzvahs, etc... Sometime our dancer friends join us and show off their moves to "civilians". I can't count the times that a dancer has told me "I saw your band at ... and I decided that I wanted to learn how to tango".

3) Some people simply prefer live music, even at the cost of authenticity. I also know many great dancers who prefer recorded classics. Luckily, the Minneapolis tango scene is big enough for both groups to co-exist. Live music, authentic or not, creates an event that draws in people. Like it or not, an event with a band is perceived as a bigger deal than one with recorded music. Bars and promoters hire bands that can bring in people (and get them buying meals and drinks). This is no different today than it was in Buenos Aires in the Epoca de Oro. Luckily, my band consistently draws enough people (and sells enough drinks) to keep us working every week. There are also "fidelity snobs" who can't get past the surface noise of a classic tango to enjoy it. They are missing out on some of the greatest gems of tango and are cutting themselves off from a more "authentic" experince. More than one person has told me that they prefer to dance to our band live than to the old re!
cordings at other milongas. I cringe when I hear that (but then, I've never actually danced to my own band).

4) Almost all the non-Argentine-born tango musicians I know got in to tango via Astor Piazzolla. They heard a CD, got hooked and realized they wanted to play like that. (Piazzolla's "Tango Hour Zero" album did it for me.) My band plays a lot of Piazzolla in concert, but significantly less for Milongas. Likewise, we seldom play our D'Arienzo transcriptions in concert. When a band only knows Piazzolla, they will play it more. You may wish to encourage fledgling bands to look up Piazzolla's roots and influences. Name a good tango or two. Make them a CD. Offer to DJ during their breaks. Find them some sheet music. (http://www.mandragoratango.com/sheetmusic/MandragoraBook20040121.pdf is a good place to start).

When I founded my band, I just wanted to play Piazzolla and Troilo. I had no idea that people danced to the tango. I was as crazy for the music as some folks on this list are about dance. Mandr?gora started playing for dances and we started the process of discovering what works and what doesn't. I had one dancer tell me that tango can only be done to CDs and that I was wasting my time. Luckily, other dancers encouraged us by telling us what works and what doesn't (and by dancing week after week!) Let your local band know what your favorite tunes and and they might just play them more and learn some similar ones. After all, they are fellow tango fans who have simply chosen a different path through tango music!

PS: We try to follow a tanda playlist. We group tangos, vals, and milonga based on things like composer, era, tempo, and the t?pica from which we've lifted the arrangement. We tried doing our own cortinas, but that turned out to be kinda silly.

Bob Barnes
Accordionist/Bandoneonist/Bandleader/Arranger
Mandr?gora Tango Orchestra
Email: info@mandragoratango.com
Web: http://www.mandragoratango.com/






Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:38:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] More On Live Tango Music
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<49246.64.229.162.40.1155857892.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>

I really enjoyed reading Bob's message.

He makes a crucial point about lead sheets as opposed to arrangements.

I also heard privately from a knowledgable person about a group he hears
frequently that he liked in the beginning but has years later found them
not to be satisfying.

That group is caught in the trap of not having more than lead sheets they
just play through.

A Tango orchestra needs a strong musical leader and definite arrangements
they play with accuracy and panache.

Lest any musician think that people like myself don't know how difficult
it all is to assemble a strong set(s) list, get all the songs worked up
and tight, and make a little cash to keep the wheels going while feeing
satisfied and motivated, I can assure I know what you go through.

Don't take any of my words to mean you won't get support from us "dancers."

I just hope you work at it in the way Bob and his group does.

Attitude counts for almost everything.

------------

A little aside to musicians about Cortinas:

If you fiddle around with other instruments outside of tango, bring them
to pick up for Cortinas.

Everything from muted trumpet to kazoo to banjo. Anything.

I find that American jazz from the 20's/30's/40's really has a great tone
that matches the mood of old tango.

Play around. Sort of going "there" to get here.

I use Albert Ammons boogie woogie; Buck Clayton; Tommy Dorsey;
Ted Lewis; Jay McShann - all kinds of stuff for Cortinas (cutting
eveything to 30-35 seconds).

Crazy instrumentation can really add a sense of fun.

k









Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:10:58 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Live cortinas
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Hello all,

I don't know if this is what Keith meant, but here's another angle on
the live music thing...

I'm currently guest-hosting a large milonga in DC, and have introduced a
couple incidental changes to bring it some variety, without interfering
with the dancing. The first experiment involved a live (classical)
guitarist playing cortinas.

The experiment kinda failed on some level, because we couldn't amp him
loud enough to match the DJ's level. (There were some issues running his
line through the house sound system, and the guitar amps we had weren't
powerful enough to boost him. That's an issue with an answer, but I've
just been too busy/lazy to push a solution through.)

It was a complete success, however, during the milonga intro. There's a
5-minute break between the group classes and the milonga at this venue,
and he gave us a delightful (I believe) Renaissance piece, with enough
atmosphere to take our minds off the furnace-level heat in the room.
There, the low volume didn't matter, and probably contributed to the moment.

Anyway, I plan to push the idea as much as I personally can, because I
think it's a great way to include area talents in our tango events.
Logistically, it requires the DJ and the musician(s) to work out a kind
of schedule, so they can take turns doing their thing, dancing, and so
forth. From what I've seen, it's pretty easy to manage.* It also makes
things casual and creative, and lends the entire event the flavor of a
relaxed bohemian party.

* (I recently made my DJ debut at a house party, and swapped off with a
Brazilian trio playing one 30-minute set. Piece of cake. Doing it for
cortinas would be quite easy, I now know first-hand.)

So, I felt like sharing the idea here, in case any milonga hosts want to
give it a shot. It's kinda fun to have someone playing live for 30
seconds. It's a sweet little challenge for the musician too, opening up
a lot of stylistic possibilities, since there are tons of non-tango
styles that can work for a cortina. So long as the dancers don't get
stuck standing on the floor listening, and it's kept a background
element, I think it's a great way to integrate arts and set a good tone
for the evening.

Jake Spatz
DC







Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:39:03 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Zwi Migdal"-s are still alive today

Just today I have read an article and wrote about it in my blog
about how nowadays girls are involved in prostitution all around the world
by incredible numbers:
Read it:
http://www.virtuar.com/tango/tango_weblog.htm

( and yes, thank you, Andrew, I have used your link )

Igor Polk







Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:40:39 -0600
From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Denver Festival: Live Blogging (with Video)
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Hi,

Thought you'd all like to know...

I will posting daily blog entries WITH IMAGES/VIDEO of the preceding
night.

Here's today's entry to get you started...

http://www.tangobliss.com/?p&9

I'll be here through Monday.

M i l e s.





Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:06:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] live music
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Hello to all, and my best wishes for your health, prosperity and happiness,

Yes, it's been a while since I chimed in, and I usually read tango-l every 3 or 4 days now, so I'm always playing catch-up. Lots of emotion lately, about the live music issue. It's been nearly a year since I brought up this subject, right after last year's "Meet in the Middle" in Missouri, where Tango Lorca played again for one evening's "enjoyment".

AJ Azure, whoever you are; first off; I'm of the belief that you should announce your name and place. All of your detractors have the guts to post to this list with full disclosure, so should you. Second, I've often disagreed with Chris, and Igor, and Jake, but not on this one. Even though Jake used some language that was uncalled for on this list, they were all right on. We all acknowledge the fact that many of the "tango orchestras" in the US are extremely talented musicians. We just want you to play music that inspires us.

Extasis in Denver, Tango Lorca in Missouri, Conjunto Berretin, whoever it was in Chicago last month.......very little was inspiring. Conjunto Berretin several years ago played some great stuff for about thirty minutes in Portland. The others; none that I've ever heard.

I have an extensive musical background, many years of piano, guitar, sax, flute, lots of theory, and lots of money, but all I care about now is "does it inspire my dance?" Once again, I acknowledge forcefully the fact that I consider you all extremely talented musicians. But...look here, it would take extremely talented musicians to emulate exactly the orchetras of the 30's-40's. I've not heard anyone of you even try. Why can't you try it? Can you not do it?

It's a great question; what makes tango, tango?? What is it about the music that makes it so different?? Why is it so hard to emulate? What is that gives it that feel? Why does it inspire such expression, such passion? It must not be easy, or some of you musicians would have figured it out. Yet, none of you have even come close; at least none of you that I've heard. And nobody I've talked to, or danced with, has ever felt it from you.

Get back to the basics; figure out what it is about DiSarli, D'Arienzo, Calo, etc that inspires us. Learn to emulate it. Learn to inspire us. Maybe then you can change it up; be a little improvisational, introduce something different, write a new tune. Actually be a musician playing to please their audience. I signed up for the Chicago Festival before I knew there was going to be a live "orchestra". I was upset, but was assured their stuff was "danceable". Maybe somebody enjoyed it, but not me, and not anybody I talked to while I was there. I stood and listened; yes they were talented, and it was played well, but it did not inspire in the least; all it inspired was the hope that they would end soon so I could dance to some "good" music.

That's the way it has been for the seven years I've been dancing; waiting to be inspired, and dismayed at the display on the floor during these "live music" events; watch the dancers, and listen to the music; neither have anything to do with the other.

To me, it is rude, maybe uninformed, but still rude, to play this music that you may love, but we hate. It is beautiful music, but it's for listening, not for dancing. And maybe, just maybe, you, AJ, are the rudest of all. Are you the one who made some really disparaging remarks about me last year in a personal email? Are you the one who said that I am an uptight individual with a disturbingly "gimped up deformity" (I have no fingers on my right hand).

What the hell is it about this discourse that you do not understand? Have we not made it clear that you are not wanted at our milongas until you decide to make a change or two? What's the deal? Do you feel insulted? We are not insulting your ability, or your skills. We are just trying to tell you that if you want to be accepted and revered, you better make some changes.

You may be a remarkably talented individual musically, but until you can play music that truly inspires us talented dancers of Argentine Tango, don't expect us to give you quarter. We will be on your ass until such inspiration occurs. Do not expect otherwise!

Regards to all,

Michael Figart II
Houston Tx





Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 20:10:31 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] live music
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Michael,
Firstly my name is in fact AJ (short for Adriel Jeremiah) and I happen
to be from Boston area. Secondly, I did not necessarily disagree with
everything said more so, the way it was said. Thirdly, I don't play
Piazolla. My group's soul purpose is to play music of the 1900-1940s so
that's the end of that whole line of commentary. As for emulating
orchestras, my group's goal is in fact to do 'some' emulating and 'some'
originality. My main gripe is Igor saying "just go listen to the music" as
if it's sooo easy to just play that music from CDs. Basically belittling the
real effort it takes to emulate music. We're not talking a rock cover band
here!

Everything, else addressed toward me was WAY based on assumption of who
I am and what I do based on previous experiences with other people. Reading
between the lines is one thing but, reading fantasy between the lines and
responding based on that is at best lame and at worst dumb. You're even
doing it in this post! I don't play music you like or dislike because. you
don't know me or my music specifically!

I would NEVER make fun or ridicule someone based on physical
disabilities. In main part due to the fact that I have dual hand
disabilities due to severe arthritis. Having lost the ability to play guitar
5 years ago and turning to steel guitar instead. SO as far as that goes, I
should say shame on you for such an assumption. Seriously, don't project
your personal issues and your issues with someone else on me just because,
you might find issue with something I've said.

Then the are the grand sweeping generalizations such as, "none of you
musicians have been able to do it". None of the ones you've heard indeed.
Unless you've heard every single musician on the planet, that's a bit of a
ridiculous claim. Don't you think? Generalizing and stereotyping serves no
one.

Bottom line as I said repeatedly and if anyone actually bothered to read
it, I myself personally want to play what dancers want to hear but, and this
is a big but, dancers should not throw this request and it is a request
(should never be a demand) around as if it's no big deal to actually
recreate a certain type of music. More importantly, be open minded (I know
it's hard for some) to hearing and dancing the same pieces but, not in the
arrangement you are necessarily familiar with. Even more importantly, rather
than copping an attitude and refusing to dance, open your mouth respectfully
and tell a musician what you feel you're missing in their music to make you
want to dance. The whole "I'm taking my toys and going home" attitude of "if
it's not danceable I will walk away", will never create any sort of
creative, symbiotic relationship between the dancer and the performing
musician.

Then comes the question do you really want a music group to do a dead on
recreation of a certain group ALL the time? That's what a DJ a for. Live
music is supposed to be about a bit of freshness and unpredictability.
That's' the excitement of live music.

Here's my suggestion, let's start an ideal play list scenario of
specific pieces. Start with JUST the pieces. Forget specific orchestras and
groups. Then give musicians a proper chance to interpret the music with an
accompanying list of what you all as dancers would like to hear to be
"inspired". However, be realistic, be reasonable and by all means be
patient! Finally, (as if I should have to say this) be polite and leave the
pompous, arrogant machismo crap at the door. That's the one thing from
Argentinean culture we can do with out (I happen to be part Argentinean by
the way before anyone says anything).

-Adriel Jeremiah Azure


> From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:06:25 -0700 (PDT)
> To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Subject: [Tango-L] live music
>
> Hello to all, and my best wishes for your health, prosperity and happiness,
>
> Yes, it's been a while since I chimed in, and I usually read tango-l every 3
> or 4 days now, so I'm always playing catch-up. Lots of emotion lately, about
> the live music issue. It's been nearly a year since I brought up this subject,
> right after last year's "Meet in the Middle" in Missouri, where Tango Lorca
> played again for one evening's "enjoyment".
>
> AJ Azure, whoever you are; first off; I'm of the belief that you should
> announce your name and place. All of your detractors have the guts to post to
> this list with full disclosure, so should you. Second, I've often disagreed
> with Chris, and Igor, and Jake, but not on this one. Even though Jake used
> some language that was uncalled for on this list, they were all right on. We
> all acknowledge the fact that many of the "tango orchestras" in the US are
> extremely talented musicians. We just want you to play music that inspires us.
>
> Extasis in Denver, Tango Lorca in Missouri, Conjunto Berretin, whoever it was
> in Chicago last month.......very little was inspiring. Conjunto Berretin
> several years ago played some great stuff for about thirty minutes in
> Portland. The others; none that I've ever heard.
>
> I have an extensive musical background, many years of piano, guitar, sax,
> flute, lots of theory, and lots of money, but all I care about now is "does it
> inspire my dance?" Once again, I acknowledge forcefully the fact that I
> consider you all extremely talented musicians. But...look here, it would take
> extremely talented musicians to emulate exactly the orchetras of the
> 30's-40's. I've not heard anyone of you even try. Why can't you try it? Can
> you not do it?
>
> It's a great question; what makes tango, tango?? What is it about the music
> that makes it so different?? Why is it so hard to emulate? What is that gives
> it that feel? Why does it inspire such expression, such passion? It must not
> be easy, or some of you musicians would have figured it out. Yet, none of you
> have even come close; at least none of you that I've heard. And nobody I've
> talked to, or danced with, has ever felt it from you.
>
> Get back to the basics; figure out what it is about DiSarli, D'Arienzo, Calo,
> etc that inspires us. Learn to emulate it. Learn to inspire us. Maybe then you
> can change it up; be a little improvisational, introduce something different,
> write a new tune. Actually be a musician playing to please their audience. I
> signed up for the Chicago Festival before I knew there was going to be a live
> "orchestra". I was upset, but was assured their stuff was "danceable". Maybe
> somebody enjoyed it, but not me, and not anybody I talked to while I was
> there. I stood and listened; yes they were talented, and it was played well,
> but it did not inspire in the least; all it inspired was the hope that they
> would end soon so I could dance to some "good" music.
>
> That's the way it has been for the seven years I've been dancing; waiting to
> be inspired, and dismayed at the display on the floor during these "live
> music" events; watch the dancers, and listen to the music; neither have
> anything to do with the other.
>
> To me, it is rude, maybe uninformed, but still rude, to play this music that
> you may love, but we hate. It is beautiful music, but it's for listening, not
> for dancing. And maybe, just maybe, you, AJ, are the rudest of all. Are you
> the one who made some really disparaging remarks about me last year in a
> personal email? Are you the one who said that I am an uptight individual with
> a disturbingly "gimped up deformity" (I have no fingers on my right hand).
>
> What the hell is it about this discourse that you do not understand? Have we
> not made it clear that you are not wanted at our milongas until you decide to
> make a change or two? What's the deal? Do you feel insulted? We are not
> insulting your ability, or your skills. We are just trying to tell you that if
> you want to be accepted and revered, you better make some changes.
>
> You may be a remarkably talented individual musically, but until you can play
> music that truly inspires us talented dancers of Argentine Tango, don't expect
> us to give you quarter. We will be on your ass until such inspiration occurs.
> Do not expect otherwise!
>
> Regards to all,
>
> Michael Figart II
> Houston Tx







Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:35:09 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] live music
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>

This topic has become quite a heated debate but it is turned into a
clash of personality.

That is sad because the substance of the debate is really important and
deserves to be
given some good thinking to work towards a real solution.

I want to support AJ's call for civility, courtesy and banishing bad
language from this
discussion.

- We all agree there is a problem of not having sufficient contemporary
musicians
making live performances or recordings of a calibre that dancers
wish to hear.

This is a serious problem: As a DJ I always try to work in newer
recordings into
my programming, but I could hardly find them. Those I have on hand I
try to give
them early evening exposure --- they are not the best for driving the
dancers to
get on their feet, but many are excellent to set the mood.

Just check out any music shop and compare their contemporary tango
collection
against the contemporary salsa, flamenco and swing collection. The
market for
tango music is miniscule, and most the reason is new recordings are
not inspiring
people to own albums.

- Musicians who have their own artistic vision of their music but
ultimately fail to
satisfy the dancer's expectation. In this regard I am firmly in the
dancer's camp.
Musicians need to rein in their artistic aspirations and focus on what
dancers
need -- I don't even think it is a matter of "you did not ask nicely",
just common
market sensibility.

Imagine a chef who goes berserk in the kitchen and bring out his
masterpiece,
when the diner simply wants a good old burger with lots of ketchup.
Is the
customer at fault for having such unexciting palette? No -- that is
giving the
customer what he wants. If not, why blame the customer for voting
with his wallet?

The best musicians will be those who give the customer the baseline of
strong
rhythms and the typical musical structure, but innovate on adding
counterpoints
in the melody or musical highlights.

Think about how Golden Age musicians progress over the Old Guards, and
how trained musicians like DiSarli and Pugliese added depth to folk
tunes like
La Cumparsita by adding extra musical layers to them. I have heard tango
versions of Happy Birthday and Pink Panther too, and I think musicians
can really have scope to innovate if they take strong well-known melodies
and add the tango twist to them, much as jazz musicians have added swing
to many songs.

- I have to acknowledge the musician's perspective too that none of what the
dancers are asking for is easy to accomplish. Without good mentors and
musician role models, one cannot be expected to reproduce a style just by
listening to recordings.

A strong band leader and good arranger is key -- these are much rarer
compared to the number of trained musicians. Indeed many contemporary
tango musician got their apprenticeship under earlier legendary
bandleaders.
Musicians without this link have very little chance of success on
their own.

That is why dancers need to go to Buenos Aires and various tango festivals
-- to get inspiration and see role models. I wish musicians can also have
the same opportunity to get up close to the best tango orchestras and
learn,
but I understand the music school offering tango in BA -- e.g. Emile
Balcarce's
-- only offer them in Spanish and takes several years of full time
commitment.
So there is another big hurdle.

Kace
tangosingapore.com






Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 18:49:20 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Live Music
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Mr. Adriel Jeremiah Azure says: (I will give my opinion others may
disagre)

"I myself personally want to play what dancers want to hear but, and this
is a big but, dancers should not throw this request and it is a request
(should never be a demand) around as if it's no big deal to actually
recreate a certain type of music."

1 - I personally go to a milonga to dance, so I expect that the music played
is going to be danceable and inspirational. I do not go to milongas where
tango music "for listening" is played, since even when one can dance tango
to any kind of music the feeling is different and the interpretation of such
music as a dance is difficult.

If you create and play music for listening that I like, I will buy the CD
and sit at home to listen to it. .

He continues:

"The whole "I'm taking my toys and going home" attitude of "if
it's not danceable I will walk away", will never create any sort of
creative, symbiotic relationship between the dancer and the performing
musician."

2 - I am not interested in creating any symbiotic relationship with a
musician that plays "non danceable" music when I go to a milonga.

At the risk of being repetitive I must say: I go to the milonga to dance to
good inspirational, danceable tango music that facilitates my interpretation
of such music in my dance and my connection and non-verbal conversation with
my partner. I do not go there to make any type of charity work, to help
musicians to learn how to do their job.

and adds:

"Finally, (as if I should have to say this) be polite and leave the
pompous, arrogant machismo crap at the door. That's the one thing from
Argentinean culture we can do with out (I happen to be part Argentinean by
the way before anyone says anything)."

3 - A specific type of music or dance are, in general, a product of the
culture of a people. Tango is a product of life and culture of the people
of Buenos Aires the same as Jazz and swing is a product of life and culture
of the cities in North America, during a certain period of history .

If you ignore that life or culture totally, or in part you are going to be
unable to create that particular type of music or dance.
You can produce something similar but not the real thing.
This is happening even in Buenos Aires where some young musicians that did
not grow up in B.A. at the time of the golden era of tango, are unable to
write music as it was done then.

Mr. Adriel Jeremiah Azure, assuming that Argentine Culture exhibited "
pompous, arrogant machismo crap " as you very graphically describe, you
(IMO) should not leave that fact of our culture at the door, quite the
opposite, you should reflect that characteristic in the music that you are
trying to create and play. Tangos reflect that element of our personality
and dear culture, not only in the music and the dance but also in the
lyrics. (See el porten`ito for instance). You cannot dance tango without
poise, giving the impression that you are in charge, that you without any
doubt know what you are doing.

Finally:
None of your names are Argentine, Argentine culture is not inherited in
genes it is absorbed .

Soy hijo de Buenos Aires,
por apodo "El porteqito",
el criollo mas compadrito
que en esta tierra nacis.
Cuando un tango en la vig|ela
rasguea algzn compaqero
no hay nadie en el mundo entero
que baile mejor que yo.

I am son of Buenos Aires,
my nickname is "El Porteqito",
the most swaggerer of the Criollos
that in this land was born.

When a tango in the guitar
is played by some of my friends
nobody in the whole world
dances better than I do.

Best regards, Sergio

More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507






Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 13:53:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] live music - realities

I second Kace?s observations. And would like to offer my own from my experiences in working with musicians and developing a live tango music scene here.

I wonder how many folks realize how difficult it is to be a working musician today, particularly of the caliber of what we want in tango musicians. Most on this list probably have a salaried 9-5 job that pays benefits. The serious musicians I know don?t have that. A friend of mine flew to Spain to audition for a symphony there because there were no openings here. She competed with 200 other clarinet players for 1 position. A place like LA or NYC may provide more opportunities for studio musicians.

So how do they find pay the bills? My friends end up creating their own opportunities. They network and cold-call, set up gigs at restaurants/cafes or civic groups, apply for grants, and do the usual advertising (website, flyers). And they also work another job (usually part-time and hourly with no benefits) that allows them the flexibility to work as musicians when gigs come up. A common thing is for them to teach music. Thank goodness the internet has made it easier and cheaper for her to create work as tango musician (playing weddings and private parties, too). But it is still a lot less than 40 hours a week. Most folks on this list probably just walk into the office.

To find others to work with consistently is another story. And to play tango, which is not in the music mainstream? Each time the local band gets a new musician, they have to be trained. I?d say it takes 3-6 months before a new band member learns enough tangos to fill a sizable set.

It?s hard being a tango musician today, even in Argentina. So before criticizing their work, I suggest taking a moment and realizing just how rare a good tango musician is in the States. I?d be just a bit ticked off if I was a musician and someone dissed my efforts or efforts of other musicians in promoting a live tango scene.

Trini de Pittsburgh





Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.




Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 14:36:00 -0700
From: Michael Knowles <binkster@binkster.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] North American live tango bands for dancing
To: tango-l@mit.edu

We in North America will just have to accept that there will not be a
Golden Age style band based here. It's far too expensive to keep that
many musicians together and it's unlikely that there will be enough
money collected at the door to pay for them. We must settle for smaller
ensembles which means we will not get to dance to the overwhelmingly
rhythmic WHUMP... WHUMP... WHUMP of four bandoneons playing together.

I like going to live tango dances because I like the surprises and
variations they bring to the music. I don't like every song or every
band but when I go I make an extra effort to work with what the band is
offering. Yes, some songs just don't have what it takes to be enjoyable
for dancing but then I feel that way about a number of vintage tango
recrodings played at milongas. There's always a tanda or two that I sit
out while waiting for something more to my taste; why should a live band
be any different?

One thing that many (all?) of the North American tango bands can improve
on is their ability to sustain two things throughout the song: strong
rhythm underneath and a strong melody or countermelody line that sings
to the dancers and carries them along through whole phrases. The danger
of having a small ensemble is when the various players trade lines and
the rhythm part gets lost in the shuffle. It's fine for listening but
not for dancing.

Here's a short list of USA-based tango ensembles. If you have
information about other groups, please post:

Tosca
http://toscastrings.com/
Lovely music. Dancing? Not really.

Extasis
http://www.tangosprings.com/Extasis.html
http://www.tango.org/extasis.html
Some good dancing numbers but much of it in the style I call
'interpretive'... not enough rhythm carrying through.

Tango No.9 (currently recording their third CD)
http://www.tangonumber9.com/downloads/index.html
I like to dance to many of their songs and I like to listen to their
Piazzolla pieces. They play new tangos as well as classic pieces.

Conjunto Berretin
http://www.tangoberretin.com/band/music.html
Mostly good dancing music with some flights of fancy that are better for
listening. Led by tango dance instructor/DJ/Tango Lister Alex Krebs.

Hombres de Tango aka Notable Tango (Seth Asarnow + others)
http://www.notabletango.com/
http://www.notabletango.com/samples.htm
Typically a guitar/bandoneon duo. Hard to keep both rhythm and melody
going when it's just two guys... but their focus is on making their
songs as danceable as possible given the limitation.

Parlor Tango
Unpredictable collaboration of various Berkeley musicians working with
Odile Lavault on accordian and/or bandoneon. Odile also leads Baguette
Quartet.

Quartet San Francisco
http://www.quartetsanfrancisco.com/qsfo_news.html
http://cdbaby.com/cd/quartetsf
Not a tango band per se but their latest album includes many tango
tunes, a few of which can be danced to. Mostly for listening.

Tango Lorca
http://www.tangolorca.com/listentango.html
I haven't danced to them.

Glovertango
http://www.glovertango.com/music.html
I haven't danced to them.

New York Tango Trio
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1081932/a/Cabarute.htm
Many good dancing selections.

Los Chantas
http://www.loschantas.com/chantas/sounds.htm
I haven't danced to them.

Please share your experiences and add more USA-based live tango bands.

Michael 'Bink' Knowles
binkster@binkster.net
www.binkster.net





Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 12:46:18 -0500
From: "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org>
Subject: [Tango-L] Some live tango music tips from a musician's
perspective.
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Hi-

My name is Bob Barnes and I'm the accordionist/bandoneonist/bandleader/arranger for Mandr?gora Tango in Minneapolis (http://www.mandragoratango.com). We've been playing a weekly Milonga every Sunday night for over 5 years. We've learned through experience what works for dance and what doesn't. Here are some lessons that our band has learned over the years.

1) If you want to be a Piazzolla cover band, a milonga is not the place to do it. I founded Mandragora and learned Bandoneon to play like Piazzolla. All the folks in the band came to tango through Piazzolla. We all fell in love with classic tango by following Piazzolla's roots. If you look down your nose at D'Arienzo and DiSarli for being too "simple", you probabbly should stick to playing Piazzolla at jazz clubs and coffee houses.

2) Tango is classical music you can dance to: you need good arrangments. The arranger is, by far, the most important member of a tango band. Every note in a tango band is written down. It is possible to buy existing arrangments for Orquesta Tipica (4 bandos, 4 violins, piano & bass), Sextetto (2 bandos, 2 violins, piano and bass) or "Piazzolla Quintet" (Bando, Violin, Bass, Guitar and PIano). If you have a different combo, you are out of luck. It takes me about 16 hours of work to arrange one 3-minute tango. As you can see, the barrier to entry is really high.

3) You can only go so far "a la parilla". Music can often be distilled to a melody line and chords. Jazz players call these "leadsheets" and play off of them all the time. When tango players do the same thing, it's called "a la parilla" (on the grill). If you a duo or trio, you can play this way and make up arrangements ahead of time (i.e. "Violin starts, then the bando comes in, then the violin takes over....). The more people you have, the more impractical this gets. Plus, you will never capture the subtleties of a good arrangement. For the first 3 years of my band, we played "a la parilla" and it just wasn't tango enough.

4) Some people just prefer live music. Play for them. There are lots of "dance gypsies" in our town who can go and hear a live band every night: Salsa, Cajun, Blues, Swing, various ethnic music, etc... They may not devote themselves entirely to tango, but they do devote themselves to live music. Feed off their energy.

5) You can never satisfy hard-core tango geeks, so don't even try. We have all met folks that believe that there has been no real tango since 1945 or who can debate at length why Tanturi is better than Biagi (or is it the other way around?) Mandragora can not compete with the greats of the golden era. We are all non-Argentine Hispanic-Americans who have lived most of our adult lives in Minnesota. We didn't grow up in tango culture. At best, it is a "second language" to us. We could devote our lives to reproducing every nuance of a DiSarli arrangement, but it would just be much easier for you to dance to the real thing on a CD. All we can do is be respectful of the tradition. We try to make sure that the percent of dancers who love what we do is much, much higher than the percentage of purists who say it's not real.

(When I started Mandr?gora Tango, 2 DJs tried to explain to me that what I was doing could never be tango and that I was wasting my time. Luckily for us the dancers though otherwise.)

6) Different DJs specialize in different sounds. Why not bands?: Some DJs play electrotango, some are heavy on Guardia Vieja. Some even play Piazzolla (gasp!). Why don't you look at a live tango band as a different breed of DJ (albeit one with a much, much smaller repertory).

7) Keep the tempo steady and you'll always have them dancing. Know the differences in playing for concert and for dance. Keep a strong 2 or 4 beat and resist the urge to make dramatic pauses and tempo changes. The main problems with Piazzolla for dance is that the tempi change abruptly and the beat is seldom 2x4. Many of our tunes can work for both concert and dance. In concert, we make dramatic pauses and play with the tempo. For dancing, we keep the tempo much steadier and emphasize the strong beats much more.

8) Live music attracts new dancers. We play a lot of "evangelizing" gigs: we'll play at some street fair, jazz club or music festival and bring a few dancers. Civilians see the dancers and decide to take lessons. It's hard to get non-dancers to stop by a dance studio to see a demo.

9) When a band plays in BA, the first 2 or 3 songs are for listening. If you absolutely have to play undancable stuff, play it first and call it a concert. (Your mileage may vary on this one)

10) This may sound weird and touchy-feely, but if you want to connect to the dancers while playing, focus on just one couple and try to play what they are feeling.

A band can't be all things to all dancers, but it can try to be many things to a lot of them.

-Bob
info@mandragoratango.com
http://www.mandragoratango.com






Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 20:18:40 +0200
From: "Christian L?then" <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some live tango music tips from a musician's
perspective.
To: "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Great posting, Bob,
you're absolutely right!
Thanks!
Greetings from Rotterdam, Holland,
Christian



-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Mon, 28 May 2007 12:46:18 -0500
Von: "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org>
An: tango-l@mit.edu
Betreff: [Tango-L] Some live tango music tips from a musician\'s perspective.

> Hi-
>
> My name is Bob Barnes and I'm the
> accordionist/bandoneonist/bandleader/arranger for Mandr?gora Tango in Minneapolis
> (http://www.mandragoratango.com). We've been playing a weekly Milonga every Sunday night for over 5 years.
> We've learned through experience what works for dance and what doesn't.
> Here are some lessons that our band has learned over the years.
>
> 1) If you want to be a Piazzolla cover band, a milonga is not the place to
> do it. I founded Mandragora and learned Bandoneon to play like Piazzolla.
> All the folks in the band came to tango through Piazzolla. We all fell
> in love with classic tango by following Piazzolla's roots. If you look down
> your nose at D'Arienzo and DiSarli for being too "simple", you probabbly
> should stick to playing Piazzolla at jazz clubs and coffee houses.
>
> 2) Tango is classical music you can dance to: you need good arrangments.
> The arranger is, by far, the most important member of a tango band. Every
> note in a tango band is written down. It is possible to buy existing
> arrangments for Orquesta Tipica (4 bandos, 4 violins, piano & bass), Sextetto
> (2 bandos, 2 violins, piano and bass) or "Piazzolla Quintet" (Bando, Violin,
> Bass, Guitar and PIano). If you have a different combo, you are out of
> luck. It takes me about 16 hours of work to arrange one 3-minute tango.
> As you can see, the barrier to entry is really high.
>
> 3) You can only go so far "a la parilla". Music can often be distilled to
> a melody line and chords. Jazz players call these "leadsheets" and play
> off of them all the time. When tango players do the same thing, it's called
> "a la parilla" (on the grill). If you a duo or trio, you can play this
> way and make up arrangements ahead of time (i.e. "Violin starts, then the
> bando comes in, then the violin takes over....). The more people you have,
> the more impractical this gets. Plus, you will never capture the subtleties
> of a good arrangement. For the first 3 years of my band, we played "a la
> parilla" and it just wasn't tango enough.
>
> 4) Some people just prefer live music. Play for them. There are lots of
> "dance gypsies" in our town who can go and hear a live band every night:
> Salsa, Cajun, Blues, Swing, various ethnic music, etc... They may not devote
> themselves entirely to tango, but they do devote themselves to live music.
> Feed off their energy.
>
> 5) You can never satisfy hard-core tango geeks, so don't even try. We
> have all met folks that believe that there has been no real tango since 1945
> or who can debate at length why Tanturi is better than Biagi (or is it the
> other way around?) Mandragora can not compete with the greats of the golden
> era. We are all non-Argentine Hispanic-Americans who have lived most of
> our adult lives in Minnesota. We didn't grow up in tango culture. At best,
> it is a "second language" to us. We could devote our lives to reproducing
> every nuance of a DiSarli arrangement, but it would just be much easier
> for you to dance to the real thing on a CD. All we can do is be respectful
> of the tradition. We try to make sure that the percent of dancers who love
> what we do is much, much higher than the percentage of purists who say it's
> not real.
>
> (When I started Mandr?gora Tango, 2 DJs tried to explain to me that what
> I was doing could never be tango and that I was wasting my time. Luckily
> for us the dancers though otherwise.)
>
> 6) Different DJs specialize in different sounds. Why not bands?: Some
> DJs play electrotango, some are heavy on Guardia Vieja. Some even play
> Piazzolla (gasp!). Why don't you look at a live tango band as a different
> breed of DJ (albeit one with a much, much smaller repertory).
>
> 7) Keep the tempo steady and you'll always have them dancing. Know the
> differences in playing for concert and for dance. Keep a strong 2 or 4 beat
> and resist the urge to make dramatic pauses and tempo changes. The main
> problems with Piazzolla for dance is that the tempi change abruptly and the
> beat is seldom 2x4. Many of our tunes can work for both concert and dance.
> In concert, we make dramatic pauses and play with the tempo. For
> dancing, we keep the tempo much steadier and emphasize the strong beats much
> more.
>
> 8) Live music attracts new dancers. We play a lot of "evangelizing" gigs:
> we'll play at some street fair, jazz club or music festival and bring a
> few dancers. Civilians see the dancers and decide to take lessons. It's
> hard to get non-dancers to stop by a dance studio to see a demo.
>
> 9) When a band plays in BA, the first 2 or 3 songs are for listening. If
> you absolutely have to play undancable stuff, play it first and call it a
> concert. (Your mileage may vary on this one)
>
> 10) This may sound weird and touchy-feely, but if you want to connect to
> the dancers while playing, focus on just one couple and try to play what
> they are feeling.
>
> A band can't be all things to all dancers, but it can try to be many
> things to a lot of them.
>
> -Bob
> info@mandragoratango.com
> http://www.mandragoratango.com
>

--



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Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser





Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 19:04:32 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Live Music
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: bbarnes@mpr.org

Bob

What an interesting note, thank you for sharing your experience with us.

Best regards,

Sergio

More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507






Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:08:29 +1000
From: garybarn@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some live tango music tips from a musician's
perspective.
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Thanks Bob for a great post. Its really great to have this from
someone actually doing it, rather than just the rants of dancers like
myself.

A couple of questions for you and other musicians on the list.

> All the folks in the band came to tango through Piazzolla. We all
> fell in love with classic tango by following Piazzolla's roots.

First, do you think there is anything that evangelising tango dancers
(like myself) can do (or not do) to encourage musicians to follow the
roots, or to help them find the joy of playing for dancing? Or is it
just luck?

Second, in developing your skill in arranging, was listening to old
recordings important?

Gary





Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:11:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Some live tango music tips from a musician's
perspective
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<60684.69.159.125.158.1180451486.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>

100,000 tango dancers.


1,000 beautiful dancers.



1,000 "tango" musicians (gawd love 'ya).


100 beautiful players for dancing.


Writing about playing tango - 1 like Bob is all we need, really - if we
are realistic and not overly greedy in the circumstances. And there
others like him who can PLAY as well ... though they will not put pen to
paper to talk to us as he does so bravely/generously.

And, I believe these players are networking - because they are very awake
people.

So, Bob is in close touch with people like Jonathan Goldman in Montreal
(Sweatshop Tango) - a hero of mine for his understanding and vision of how
to make live music inspire a hungry dancer. Jonathan does what Bob writes
about: he puts every note on the charts the musicians play from. And his
musicians play with fire and verve and make you forget about how much you
don't want to hear live musicians.

These guys, folks - a small group of leaders/arrangers around the world -
get it and represent a future we can look forward to.

I know there are more, but these are the ones who are known to me
personally at the present time. I look forward to learning about the
others doing a nice thing wherever they are.

If there are only 2 or 3 or 5 or 25 band leaders in the world (outside of
AR) who really understand what dancers want, HALLELUJAH!

Most fine musicians won't be writing to this list.

To have your contributions here, Bob, is one more meaningful and really
valuable way you are just making the world a better place for us.
;-)

k. e.


ToTANGO.net








Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 13:46:31 -0500
From: "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org>
Subject: [Tango-L] Some questions answered on "Some live tango music
tips..."
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Gary-

> First, do you think there is anything that evangelising tango dancers
> (like myself) can do (or not do) to encourage musicians to follow the
> roots, or to help them find the joy of playing for dancing? Or is it
> just luck?

To get a band going, you really need musicians who are devoted to the
style. A Bandoneon is the heart of a tango band, but they are few and
far between in the US. In my opinion, accordion is good enough.
(Purists may disagree with me, but I am an accordionist and there's
nothing they can do about it).

Even though my band has been together for 5 years, it pretty much sucked
for the first 3 or so. I started it with jazz and folk players who were
more intersted in having fun (and a weekly paycheck) than the music.
They didn't have the tango passion I had, and it was quite frustrating.
One by one, I met players who were interested specifically in tango, and
now we have a quartet of folks who are passionate about it. Working
with the best freee-lancers in town gave me a great sound, but it wasn't
truly tango. We need players who are passionate about the music! (BTW-
we have an open spot for a dedicated, professional level pianist who
wants to move to Minneapolis)

I also found that the bass is almost as important as the bando,
especially when you don't have a piano. Tango bass technique is
different than straight classical and has almost nothing to do with jazz
or folk bass (i.e. it's all bow). The guy I'm playing with now (Rahn
Yanes) is a classically-trained player, but needed about a year to
become "fluent" in the tango idiom. It's kinda like how you can teach a
professional dancer all the steps, but it'll take them a long time
before they look fluid and unforced. It's the same way with learning
tango music.

But when it comes right down to it, if the band is having fun and is
willing to learn from the masters, you will have a good dance band.

If you want to encourage a tango band to become a dance band, here are a
few things:

1) Give them recordings of what you like to dance to. The stuff that is
availble in record stores in the states is all for listening. Is it any
wonder that no one plays for dancing? If they never hear DiSarli, how
can they play like him?

2) Find or buy arrangments. A much trickier prospect. Get dance
arrangments, not concert ones. http://universelles.fr/ has a good
selection (stick with the Arg. ones, though). Julian Hasse sells some
arragements at http://www.julianhasse.com.ar/shop/ (If you want to use
the "Tango in a Box" series, just try one first and see if it works for
you.) Norberto Vogel makes custom arrangments: http://www.vogel.com.ar/
You can also buy some at
http://www.accordionist.net/index.php?productIDD

3) Underwrite gigs! To get professional musicians hooked on tango, they
need to play it, and to play it, they need some money. I was blessed
with a regular Sunday evening resturant gig where my guys get a pretty
good paycheck to play on a traditionally slow night for musicians. If a
band is playing for "percent of the door" at a dance studio, they may
walk home with $15 each, which may not encourage them to come back for
more. Also, when a promotor is looking at paying a single DJ $50 or a
band $200, what are they going to do?

4) Offer to DJ between their sets or create DJ CDs so a promotor doesn't
have to hire both a band and a DJ.


>Second, in developing your skill in arranging, was listening to old
>recordings important?

Yes! About half of my arrangments are straight transcriptions of the
masters: mostly D'Arienzo, Canaros DiSarli and Troilo. The other half
are "original" arrangments (if there can be such a thing) where I
arrange a standard to my liking. The act of listening and transcribing
each note is the best way to learn the internal logic of a tango.

I've heard it said that the best way to learn a Bach fugue is to write
it out in longhand. Transcribing a classic tango serves a double
purpose for me: I learn an arranging style from an old master and my
band gets 3 more minutes of danceable music!

-Bob Barnes
info@mandragoratango.com








Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:59:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some questions answered on "Some live tango
music tips..."
To: "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org>, tango-l@mit.edu

Graduate students in a local university's music department, we have found here, are often quite interested in learning tango once they have been exposed to it. This is where two of the four local bands come from, after several musicians came in contact with the local dance community (one band was formed from an Argentine, and the fourth was started by a dancer/musician). Graduate students also network well and seem to find other interested musicians easily, as well as studio space through their university.

They have also found a very supportive dance community. Local dance organizers have events for the bands so they get an initial exposure. Afterwards, the music groups hold their own milongas, keeping the profits for themselves. They can clear a few hundred in one night, without raising the standard price of a milonga ($10).

The atmosphere at these events is more laid-back than a regular milonga. It's more of a party atmosphere, with some chit chat between the audience and musicians. It can be a nice change.

The musicians are classically trained, but they are understanding the difference between dance and concert music. Their training lets them pick up the tango in a few months. The community as a whole has been pleased with how the bands are developing.

Trini de Pittsburgh


"Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org> wrote:
Gary-

> First, do you think there is anything that evangelising tango dancers
> (like myself) can do (or not do) to encourage musicians to follow the
> roots, or to help them find the joy of playing for dancing? Or is it
> just luck?

To get a band going, you really need musicians who are devoted to the
style. A Bandoneon is the heart of a tango band, but they are few and
far between in the US. In my opinion, accordion is good enough.
(Purists may disagree with me, but I am an accordionist and there's
nothing they can do about it).

Even though my band has been together for 5 years, it pretty much sucked
for the first 3 or so. I started it with jazz and folk players who were
more intersted in having fun (and a weekly paycheck) than the music.
They didn't have the tango passion I had, and it was quite frustrating.
One by one, I met players who were interested specifically in tango, and
now we have a quartet of folks who are passionate about it. Working
with the best freee-lancers in town gave me a great sound, but it wasn't
truly tango. We need players who are passionate about the music! (BTW-
we have an open spot for a dedicated, professional level pianist who
wants to move to Minneapolis)





Building a website is a piece of cake.




Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some questions answered on "Some live tango
music tips..."
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I forgot to mention that Pittsburgh is not a big community, so I was surprised to learn from posts on this lists that few other cities, even ones with more sizable communities, have multiple music groups. At a regular milonga, we usually expect 30-40 people. If all of the tango dancers actually show up, we might get 60, but that very rarely happens. So it is possible to have a reasonable live music scene in a small community.

Trini de Pittsburgh

"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
Graduate students in a local university's music department, we have found here, are often quite interested in learning tango once they have been exposed to it. This is where two of the four local bands come from, after several musicians came in contact with the local dance community (one band was formed from an Argentine, and the fourth was started by a dancer/musician). Graduate students also network well and seem to find other interested musicians easily, as well as studio space through their university.

They have also found a very supportive dance community. Local dance organizers have events for the bands so they get an initial exposure. Afterwards, the music groups hold their own milongas, keeping the profits for themselves. They can clear a few hundred in one night, without raising the standard price of a milonga ($10).

The atmosphere at these events is more laid-back than a regular milonga. It's more of a party atmosphere, with some chit chat between the audience and musicians. It can be a nice change.

The musicians are classically trained, but they are understanding the difference between dance and concert music. Their training lets them pick up the tango in a few months. The community as a whole has been pleased with how the bands are developing.

Trini de Pittsburgh


"Barnes, Bob" wrote:
Gary-

> First, do you think there is anything that evangelising tango dancers
> (like myself) can do (or not do) to encourage musicians to follow the
> roots, or to help them find the joy of playing for dancing? Or is it
> just luck?

To get a band going, you really need musicians who are devoted to the
style. A Bandoneon is the heart of a tango band, but they are few and
far between in the US. In my opinion, accordion is good enough.
(Purists may disagree with me, but I am an accordionist and there's
nothing they can do about it).

Even though my band has been together for 5 years, it pretty much sucked
for the first 3 or so. I started it with jazz and folk players who were
more intersted in having fun (and a weekly paycheck) than the music.
They didn't have the tango passion I had, and it was quite frustrating.
One by one, I met players who were interested specifically in tango, and
now we have a quartet of folks who are passionate about it. Working
with the best freee-lancers in town gave me a great sound, but it wasn't
truly tango. We need players who are passionate about the music! (BTW-
we have an open spot for a dedicated, professional level pianist who
wants to move to Minneapolis)





Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.




Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 23:47:28 -0700
From: "anfractuoso x2" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some questions answered on "Some live tango
music tips..."
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600705292347h6ab4f337q53ece4261979c12f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Well, some interesting discussions here that I managed to miss
completely by not visiting the list often..

One thing I find in developing tango bands is that some keep playing
in a pre-1920 style, i.e. with the habanera rhythm pattern. Of course
if they just saw some old piano scores, and the composition happened
to be from before 1920 or so, this is exactly how it is written, with
the habanera pattern.

I find it not trivial to approach what typically are classically
trained professional musicians, and go through the tango music
(hi)story, and of how and why one should play the scores 'straight' -
as a straight-4 (el cuatro) or straight-2 - even if the scores have
the habanera pattern.

The result I have observed is that dancers are somewhat confused as to
why the live band playing does not sound quite like the typical
recordings (since nowadays we rarely seem to listen to pre-1920 style
of tango interpretation on record, at milongas). Some try to dance it
as a slow modern (post-1930) milonga which sort of makes sense since
the rudimentary beats could follow in the same pattern, even if the
progression and other details are somewhat different in a milonga.
Some other dancers put their best canyenge on.

As to the excerpt below, I am curious, Bob, which recordings on your
2005 CD are copies of arrangements of D'Arienzo, Canaro, Di Sarli or
Troilo, if any. Of course your band does not seem the size of those
orchestras so there must have been some changes still?

With best regards,
Anfractuoso


On 5/29/07, Barnes, Bob <BBarnes@mpr.org> wrote:

>
> >Second, in developing your skill in arranging, was listening to old
> >recordings important?
>
> Yes! About half of my arrangments are straight transcriptions of the
> masters: mostly D'Arienzo, Canaros DiSarli and Troilo. The other half
> are "original" arrangments (if there can be such a thing) where I
> arrange a standard to my liking. The act of listening and transcribing
> each note is the best way to learn the internal logic of a tango.







Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:37:41 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Buffalo NY is alive and well.....
To: tango-l@mit.edu


......if anyone is traveling to Buffalo, I wanted to let you know that
tango here is alive and thriving. I host a free milonga on the first
Monday of each month, and for the second month in a row, despite the
cold and bad weather, more than 50 people were there, including some
visitors from Rochester. My milonga is free, but another dancer,
Travis, has milongas on the second and fourth Fridays of each month
although there is a small cost. He also has a monthly practica - so if
you are visiting the area, please get in touch...there's a lot of tango
here....

Barbra





Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 22:40:48 +1100
From: Roger Edgecombe <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: [Tango-L] tap tap ..testing .. tap tap: Tango-L still alive?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Hmm - I see lots of tango-A posts but almost nothing for tango-L. Is it
just deathly quiet or has something gone pear-shaped?

cheers
rde








Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:46:58 -0500
From: "CHARLES KELLY" <carlitokel@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L is still alive
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

TangoL is still alive. I read it regularly, but respond only very
occasionally. The tango "scene," both dance & music, has changed in BA and in
USA in recent years, and is continuing to change and evolve. That is a good
thing, and shows that Tango is indeed alive; not dead or dying.

That being said, now two items; one enquiry, one suggestion:

1. Enquiry: I've recently enjoyed seeing quite a few references to comments
by Chicho; I'm wondering what is the source of this. Is/was there a published
interview, article, book, Internet-piece,...? If so, could someone please
cite. Thanks.

2. Improving TangoL content: Personally, I generally find most interesting
and useful, not the long monologues and/or diatribes, or even the well-meaning
but often lengthy descriptive narratives -- but rather, references (URLs) to
video examples (usually uTube), with short specific commentary, observations,
or questions related to them. Tango exists in a visual-time-space medium, so
using video clips as a starting point for discussion seems a useful way to
focus things a bit.

Of course some topics, such as tango etiquette, mores, manners, codes,
syndromes, etc.; or, discussion of, say, tango lyrics, will not naturally lend
themselves to video, and would therefore be expected to continue as text
discussions. However I, for one, would welcome more discussion of the letera
& musica, and less ranting about perceived indiscretions on the dance-floor.

Best regards to all.









Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 13:16:15 +1100
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L is still alive
To: tango-l <tango-L@mit.edu>

Charles,

The source was me.... It was a conversation I had with Chicho (one of
my teachers and a good friend) and with his permission I post the
relevant part of the conversation for this 'forum'.

It is in a previous part of this thread.

I still find it incredulous that anyone would say from a source as
great as Chicho, that he might be wrong - he, Arce, Naveira and so
forth are the cutting edge in reality. Sure, there are now others
making their names as cutting edge nuevo teachers as well, but all the
information came from Naveira, Salas, Veron, Chicho etc.. etc...
etc... Considering these guys all agree on the principles and
techniques (although style differs thankfully), fairly hard to
dispute. I know this from having spent considerable time with each of
them and their best students....

Damian


>
> 1. Enquiry: I've recently enjoyed seeing quite a few references to comments
> by Chicho; I'm wondering what is the source of this. Is/was there a published
> interview, article, book, Internet-piece,...? If so, could someone please
> cite. Thanks.





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