324 Men dancing with men
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:24:34 GMT
From: Michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Men dancing with men
I've read a number of posts dealing with same-gender dancing. One reason is to learn and dance better and the other is to fight boredom waiting to be asked to dance at milongas.
I used to think that learning to follow was a waste of time. I'll never forget the day I changed my mind. For months, my teacher said "Michael, wait for the woman. Where are you going without her?" I thought I understood that the woman moves first and I follow a split second later but it was obvious I didn't understand UNTIL one day at my teacher's group lessson a woman led me in ochos. She was stepping side to side WITHOUT waiting for me to pivot and step in the opposite direction. Now I knew what women meant when they said "he's sweeping the floor with me." After that experience, I definitely learned what it meant to "wait for the woman." The only way I learned was to follow!!
Whenever I have difficulty learning a figure, I ask my teacher (a man) to lead me in the figure. I'm able to feel what the woman should feel when I lead.
A good part of dancing is becoming self-aware. Between yoga and following at my private lessons, I've enhanced my leading skills.
Men who think following is easy don't have a clue how difficult it is if the lead is terrible. I remember attending Tango Locura in Montreal a few years ago with Daniel Trenner. He had same sex partners in one class. I was going to follow another man. He switched his weight from one foot to the other and back. I followed his weight changes. He asked "Why are you doing that (weight changes)?" I said "Because you are."
Michael
Living in Washington, DC
Loving to dance tango in New York
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:29:28 +1000
From: A Athanassiou & A B Reid <athanass@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Men dancing with men
In the Brisbane Tango community we have the opposite problem - not enough
men. As such it is rare to have two men dancing together, which is a very
great shame. A couple of years ago the director of our dance studio asked
me to take over the beginner students as the classes were getting too
numerous for all the instructors to handle.
The two best things that ever happened for my Tango was going back a
re-focusing on the basic principles of balance and walking ... AND best of
all .... dancing the woman's part. This gave me the clearest aspect of how
the the man communicates movement to the woman. It highlights every
possible mistake you can imagine and allows you the best understanding of
how to improve your leading.
Michael, I dance the woman's part whenever I can and i urge you to continue.
Arthur
Brisbane.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 2:24 AM
Subject: Men dancing with men
> I've read a number of posts dealing with same-gender dancing. One reason
is to learn and dance better and the other is to fight boredom waiting to be
asked to dance at milongas.
>
> I used to think that learning to follow was a waste of time. I'll never
forget the day I changed my mind. For months, my teacher said "Michael, wait
for the woman. Where are you going without her?" I thought I understood that
the woman moves first and I follow a split second later but it was obvious I
didn't understand UNTIL one day at my teacher's group lessson a woman led me
in ochos. She was stepping side to side WITHOUT waiting for me to pivot and
step in the opposite direction. Now I knew what women meant when they said
"he's sweeping the floor with me." After that experience, I definitely
learned what it meant to "wait for the woman." The only way I learned was to
follow!!
>
> Whenever I have difficulty learning a figure, I ask my teacher (a man) to
lead me in the figure. I'm able to feel what the woman should feel when I
lead.
>
> A good part of dancing is becoming self-aware. Between yoga and following
at my private lessons, I've enhanced my leading skills.
>
> Men who think following is easy don't have a clue how difficult it is if
the lead is terrible. I remember attending Tango Locura in Montreal a few
years ago with Daniel Trenner. He had same sex partners in one class. I was
going to follow another man. He switched his weight from one foot to the
other and back. I followed his weight changes. He asked "Why are you doing
that (weight changes)?" I said "Because you are."
>
> Michael
> Living in Washington, DC
> Loving to dance tango in New York
>
>
> I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:23:13 -0700
From: Mark Rector <rmarkrector@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Men Dancing with Men
In the classroom or practica, "men dancing with men"
can be a superb learning tool. It is one thing to be
"told" how to lead properly. It is another thing
entirely to be able to "feel" how to lead properly.
There is simply no substitute.
I think a good deal of bad leading habits could be
broken by men practicing with each other... because
they can give very specific feedback to each other -
noticing details that non-leaders might not even be
aware of.
Cheers! -Mark
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:05:28 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Men Dancing with Men
Mark Rector wrote:
>I think a good deal of bad leading habits could be
>broken by men practicing with each other... because
>they can give very specific feedback to each other -
>noticing details that non-leaders might not even be
>aware of.
I remain somewhat skeptical of the men learning by practicing with other
men. A man can also develop bad habits practicing tango with another man,
and the feedback is only likely to be of much value if the following
partner is actually skilled at following.
One of the things that we must realize when we looking at the historical
example of men practicing with men was that it was really older boys
practicing with younger boys. In order to graduate to practicing as a
leader, the younger boys had to master the skills of following well.
Hence, they actually developed good following skills.
Today's leaders have not put much time into practicing their following
skills, and consequently it is a very rare male who who has developed the
skills necessary to follow well. In practicas, many male followers are
totally off balance, particularly in their back ocho pivoting. The leader
may find himself compensating for his follower by using brute strength,
which is actually a very bad habit to develop.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
http://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:57 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Men Dancing with Men
I agree with Mark that this can be a superb learning tool. Men need to learn what it feels like to be thrown around the room or rushed through ochos. I remember when a woman was leading me in ochos. She was stepping side to side and NOT waiting for me to finish my pivot to move in the opposite direction. That's the day I learned "wait for the woman" means.
I was glad not be to a follower because of the intense strength men ue to lead. They use arms to steer not shoulders to lead. Their feet move before the upper body so the only lead I get is the man stepping on my feet. I don't have a clue how women put up with me.
Following with a man at a class opened up a completely new perspective for me. My teacher is fond of saying "If you can't do what you are leading, how can you expect somebody else to follow you?" That point was really driven home by the experience.
Michael
Washington, DC
--- Mark Rector <rmarkrector@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
In the classroom or practica, "men dancing with men"
can be a superb learning tool. It is one thing to be
"told" how to lead properly. It is another thing
entirely to be able to "feel" how to lead properly.
There is simply no substitute.
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:38:17 -0600
From: Russell E Bauer <russell_bauer@LYCOS.COM>
Subject: Re: Men Dancing with Men
--
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:05:28
Stephen Brown wrote:
>
>I remain somewhat skeptical of the men learning by practicing with other
>men. A man can also develop bad habits practicing tango with another man,
>and the feedback is only likely to be of much value if the following
>partner is actually skilled at following.
>
...
>
>Today's leaders have not put much time into practicing their following
>skills, and consequently it is a very rare male who who has developed the
>skills necessary to follow well. In practicas, many male followers are
>totally off balance, particularly in their back ocho pivoting. The leader
>may find himself compensating for his follower by using brute strength,
>which is actually a very bad habit to develop.
>
This sounds like a good arguement that men need to put more time into practicing following, not less.
Russell Bauer
Denver, CO
Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail!
http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid'005
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 19:59:58 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRY.COM.AU>
Subject: men dancing with men
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:05:28
Stephen Brown wrote:
>
>I remain somewhat skeptical of the men learning by practicing with other
>men. A man can also develop bad habits practicing tango with another man,
>and the feedback is only likely to be of much value if the following
>partner is actually skilled at following.
>
...
>
>Today's leaders have not put much time into practicing their following
>skills, and consequently it is a very rare male who has developed the
>skills necessary to follow well. In practicas, many male followers are
>totally off balance, particularly in their back ocho pivoting. The leader
>may find himself compensating for his follower by using brute strength,
>which is actually a very bad habit to develop.
>
This sounds like a good arguement that men need to put more time into
practicing following, not less.
Russell Bauer
Denver, CO
I find that it is good for men, at particular times, to "learn how it feels"
for a particular movement by experiencing the woman's role. It does not
mean that men need to or should become proficient dancers of the female
role. However there are benefits for women as well. If a man practices a
particular movement with a woman (particularly a regular partner) it is
likely that she will "learn" the movement and simply dance it by rote,
anticipating every move. If two men practice together, they can both learn
the mark without spoiling the fun for their female partner. Now that's a
win-win-win deal.
John Lowry
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 10:19:58 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: men dancing with men
> >skills necessary to follow well. In practicas, many male followers are
> >totally off balance, particularly in their back ocho pivoting.
> The leader
> >may find himself compensating for his follower by using brute strength,
> >which is actually a very bad habit to develop.
>
I danced with a leader last night who has become quite a good dancer in the
last years. But last night he had reverted to many of his bad habits -
pushing me into the cross, using his right hand like a rudder, etc - lots of
"brute strength". It was rather drastic, and I couldn't help commenting on
it. Even after the first dance there was no improvement. He thought it was
because he had just come from a class for leaders, where they all led each
other.
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:00:59 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Men Dancing with Men
--- Mark Rector <rmarkrector@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> I think a good deal of bad leading habits could be
> broken by men practicing with each other... because
> they can give very specific feedback to each other -
> noticing details that non-leaders might not even be
> aware of.
Not to mention details that non-leaders are all too
aware of!
Jai
NYC
=====
Usenet on Google, the Internet's home for easy and totally free discussion:
http://groups.google.com
Usenet Fast Start for Tango Posters
http://www.geocities.com/jaijeffryes/usenet.htm
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:31:09 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Men dancing with men
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Caroline says: 1 - "Isn't it true that at the beginning, when tango first
began, men were dancing with men before they became "learned" enough in
order to dance with a woman?
2 - Why couldn't that be the case for women? Why wouldn't a woman want to
learn to lead so she would learn to become an even better follower?
3 - What's wrong with wanting to learn more about tango from your partner's
perspective? I mean, really, what's going to happen if a woman learns to
lead? Will the world of tango fall off its axis?
Caroline "
I have noticed that many posters depart from wrong or equivocal assumptions
to draw false or equivocal conclusions.
1 - In this particular case we correctly say that at the beginning men
danced with men to become learned enough in order to dance with women.
2 - Here we are assuming that when a woman learns to lead she becomes a
better follower.
This could be a matter for discussion.
3 - (see above)This is another subject that deserves discussion.
The false premise here is that men practiced with each other as followers to
become better leaders.
The truth was : Men had to practice with each other because there were no
women to do it with. If doing the follower's part made them better leaders
that was an added bonus but not the purpose of this practice.
They practiced as followers to give a partner the chance to do his leading
part knowing that later it would be his turn to lead. No man practiced as a
follower to then be able to dance as a follower either. They sometimes do it
in exhibitions.
Men then always danced as leaders at the milongas, they never intended to
dance as followers.
There is a big difference between what was/is done by men and what we are
discussing here which is women dancing as leaders at the milongas.
Another warm day in the north east, enjoy it, Sergio.
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men dancing with men
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Dear Sergio:
Thank you for the clarification. I agree with you.
Men should seek to become better leaders, and women
should seek to become better followers. Men and women
should dance together whenever there is a choice. Men
should not chose to be followers and women should not
choose to be leaders.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Caroline says: 1 - "Isn't it true that at the
> beginning, when tango first
> began, men were dancing with men before they became
> "learned" enough in
> order to dance with a woman?
>
> 2 - Why couldn't that be the case for women? Why
> wouldn't a woman want to
> learn to lead so she would learn to become an even
> better follower?
>
> 3 - What's wrong with wanting to learn more about
> tango from your partner's
> perspective? I mean, really, what's going to happen
> if a woman learns to
> lead? Will the world of tango fall off its axis?
>
> Caroline "
>
> I have noticed that many posters depart from wrong
> or equivocal assumptions
> to draw false or equivocal conclusions.
>
> 1 - In this particular case we correctly say that at
> the beginning men
> danced with men to become learned enough in order to
> dance with women.
>
> 2 - Here we are assuming that when a woman learns to
> lead she becomes a
> better follower.
>
> This could be a matter for discussion.
>
> 3 - (see above)This is another subject that deserves
> discussion.
>
> The false premise here is that men practiced with
> each other as followers to
> become better leaders.
>
> The truth was : Men had to practice with each other
> because there were no
> women to do it with. If doing the follower's part
> made them better leaders
> that was an added bonus but not the purpose of this
> practice.
>
> They practiced as followers to give a partner the
> chance to do his leading
> part knowing that later it would be his turn to
> lead. No man practiced as a
> follower to then be able to dance as a follower
> either. They sometimes do it
> in exhibitions.
>
> Men then always danced as leaders at the milongas,
> they never intended to
> dance as followers.
>
> There is a big difference between what was/is done
> by men and what we are
> discussing here which is women dancing as leaders
> at the milongas.
>
> Another warm day in the north east, enjoy it,
> Sergio.
>
>
> it now!
>
>
>
Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
http://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:51:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men dancing with men
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Sergio,
Even today men dance with men, women with women, whenever they feel lonely and friendly, have a drink, there is good music and the opposite sex may, or may not be close by. And it doesn't even have to be Tango...
Lucia
Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> escribi?: Caroline says: 1 - "Isn't it true that at the beginning, when tango first
began, men were dancing with men before they became "learned" enough in
order to dance with a woman?
2 - Why couldn't that be the case for women? Why wouldn't a woman want to
learn to lead so she would learn to become an even better follower?
3 - What's wrong with wanting to learn more about tango from your partner's
perspective? I mean, really, what's going to happen if a woman learns to
lead? Will the world of tango fall off its axis?
Caroline "
I have noticed that many posters depart from wrong or equivocal assumptions
to draw false or equivocal conclusions.
1 - In this particular case we correctly say that at the beginning men
danced with men to become learned enough in order to dance with women.
2 - Here we are assuming that when a woman learns to lead she becomes a
better follower.
This could be a matter for discussion.
3 - (see above)This is another subject that deserves discussion.
The false premise here is that men practiced with each other as followers to
become better leaders.
The truth was : Men had to practice with each other because there were no
women to do it with. If doing the follower's part made them better leaders
that was an added bonus but not the purpose of this practice.
They practiced as followers to give a partner the chance to do his leading
part knowing that later it would be his turn to lead. No man practiced as a
follower to then be able to dance as a follower either. They sometimes do it
in exhibitions.
Men then always danced as leaders at the milongas, they never intended to
dance as followers.
There is a big difference between what was/is done by men and what we are
discussing here which is women dancing as leaders at the milongas.
Another warm day in the north east, enjoy it, Sergio.
?Tu correo te queda chico?
1GB gratis, protecci?n antivirus y contra el correo basura
Correo Yahoo!
?Tenelo ya!
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:35:52 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men dancing with men
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> writes:
[...]
> The false premise here is that men practiced with each other as
> followers to become better leaders.
>
> The truth was : Men had to practice with each other because there
> were no women to do it with. If doing the follower's part made them
> better leaders that was an added bonus but not the purpose of this
> practice.
>
> They practiced as followers to give a partner the chance to do his
> leading part knowing that later it would be his turn to lead. No man
> practiced as a follower to then be able to dance as a follower
> either. They sometimes do it in exhibitions.
Doesn't it seem plausible to you that that state of affairs would have
created a dance which is in some ways suited to learning in that way?
(That is, if tango evolved in an environment where almost all leaders
first learned to follow, that that might have created a dance which
would be easier learned like that?)
(Of course, that environment would also mean that beginners (taking
whichever role) would always be dancing with relatively competent
dancers of the other role. That might encourage some aspects of a
dance, which you might seek to reduce if beginners routinely tried to
dance with each other. I'm not sure which would be a more significant
factor.)
> Men then always danced as leaders at the milongas, they never intended
> to dance as followers.
Sure, I don't think anyone claims otherwise.
What I've heard is that it's valuable for men to learn to follow, in
order to lead better. (I haven't heard the obvious analogous claim
made for women. Not nearly as often, anyway, and never with such
confidence.)
I think I found it valuable; however, I fully acknowledge that that
doesn't really constitute convincing evidence for the claim. (I might
well be incorrect, and even I'm right that would only indicate that
it helped me.)
> There is a big difference between what was/is done by men and what
> we are discussing here which is women dancing as leaders at the
> milongas.
Sure.
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:36:37 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men dancing with men
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Bruce Stephens wrote:
>
> What I've heard is that it's valuable for men to learn to follow, in
> order to lead better. (I haven't heard the obvious analogous claim
> made for women. Not nearly as often, anyway, and never with such
> confidence.)
Followers tend to learn technique sooner in their tango lives.
Leader's tend to learn musicality and "voice" earlier. Yet both men &
women (leaders & followers) benefit from learning the other role,
precisely to gain those other skills.
The most important thing a follower can learn is to have more of a
VOICE in the dance.
Women can learn some very key concepts by leading.
(1) Feeling different followers, women can get a better idea of what
makes for good (or bad) following.
(2) The follower's role starts out relatively passive and receptive,
for fear of missing the lead or messing up the lead, but the best
followers don't "just follow". The leader's role projects and
initiates ideas. So A follower who learns to lead, also learns to
have more of a voice in the dance.
I think the accusation that this will mess up her following is true
only in the category of beginner or intermediate dancers, or else is
merely a sexist (traditionalis?) criticism. Yes, I know guys who get
angry when they see women leading, because they aren't available for
them, but this is a cretin-esque attitude.
Men who follow learn corresponding skills:
(1) Feeling different leaders, they get an idea of what good or bad
leading is like.
(2) Good leading includes certain aspects of following.
(3) The technical skills of following (ochos, for example), are used
a lot as the leader gets better.
(4) Leaders who follow experience inside their body what they are
supposed to lead. This greatly assists the leader in achieving skills
in the art of PROPRIOCEPTION. This skill is mirrored for the
follower, despite being on the receiving end of the lead.
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:52:58 GMT
From: "dubrovay@juno.com" <dubrovay@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men dancing with men
To: tango-l@mit.edu
At the beginning it was and is OK now to dance men with men and woman
with woman in order to practice. What does not look good and is not OK is to do it in a * formal milonga *,
it should be done in a practica, (Special place to practice dancing and dancing steps).
Back in the 1940s we where practicing with other boys and the first thing we learned was to follow, but in the milongas we danced with girls.
Elemer in Redmond
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Caroline says: 1 - "Isn't it true that at the
> beginning, when tango first
> began, men were dancing with men before they became
> "learned" enough in
> order to dance with a woman?
>
> 2 - Why couldn't that be the case for women? Why
> wouldn't a woman want to
> learn to lead so she would learn to become an even
> better follower?
>
> 3 - What's wrong with wanting to learn more about
> tango from your partner's
> perspective? I mean, really, what's going to happen
> if a woman learns to
> lead? Will the world of tango fall off its axis?
>
> Caroline
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:24:37 EST
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] men dancing with men
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
tangopeer wrote:
<<<<I keep waiting for someone to pipe in about men
dancing with men in BsAs years ago.? Isn't that how
they learned?? I've heard dozens of stories about
that, but I am no historian.? Who gots da goods on
this?>>>>
Although today same-sex people dance with each other and exchange lead and
follow for different reasons, the main reason men danced with men is fairly
simple and a product of the cultural milieu of the day. Tango was not considered a
respectable dance to do and many women, especially young ones, were not
allowed to go to practicas (inasmuch as they existed in those days). They might go
to milongas, and even then perhaps accompanied by the parents. We forget in
our enthusiasm that even in Argentina, tango was frowned upon for years by the
upper classes and "cultured" people did not dance it, and not all of the
"lower" classes danced it either. I have known older Argentine women who told me
their parents did not allow them to dance tango. Men didn't have too many choices
for practicing steps except with each other, but this enabled them to be
prepared when they went to the milongas. Tango came out of the bordellos and
conventillos...not a world you wanted your daughter to be associated with. We may
smile at the depictions of "compadritos" on stage, but the reality was not so
romantic. Compadritos often carried knives and violence was a part of the early
tango world. Canaro writes in his autobiography of knife fights and
gunshots being exchanged (and barely missing him) at clubs in La Boca. It was a
different world from the one we know.
Danel Bastone told me that he often practiced with other men, simply because
there were no women around to practice with. I have heard the same from Gavito
and other milongueros I have known. This persisted well in to the forties and
fifties of the 20th century. We forget in our modern, more-enlightened day
that the social customs were more restricted than today. Women did not have the
same freedoms and men had to learn from each other.
Cheers,
Charles
**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:43:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] men dancing with men
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
So, going back to the discussion of whether the early
milongueros had teachers ...
Today, we have teachers that organize classes and we
pay them. Back then, they had teachers (each other)
and just because they weren't publically announced
classrooms with fees, we don't consider them as
teachers?
So, if Charles teaches me and I teach Charles and we
don't put fliers out on the tables at milongas, then
we didn't have teachers? Hmmmm.....
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:55:14 -0600
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] men dancing with men
Cc: TANGO-L@mit.edu
Being an armchair sociologist with no direct experience in Argentine
history or culture (how's that for a refreshingly honest disclaimer ;D)
I would observe one other thing.
In most older European derived cultures, women were to be courted and
everyone had their role to play in such exchanges. This often meant
limited and very circumscribed interactions between men and women. This
was especially true in BA where, if census figures are correct from the
period, the ratio of men to women was badly skewed. If the men were to
impress with their dancing, it was probably a relief to practice with
other men since they could actually focus on the technique rather than
having all the social baggage they would otherwise have to attend to. In
the US/UK men have a lot of contact anxiety that other cultures do not,
so they tend to view this topic with a good deal of alarm. Also, because
men back then would probably only get a few minutes for their tanda with
their prospective paramour, it had to be perfect. Experimentation with
the dance to make it more impressive (pretty sure they would have done
that back then just like the singles on the prowl do it today -- after
all, we lack plumage...). Such practice would also have been easier with
guys who were in the same boat and consequently more forgiving of
errors, miss -steps etc.. As it is now it was back than: The man
proposes, the woman disposes.
Women often completely misunderstand how stressful it can be for guys to
interact with them. My experiences with other cultures where there are
still strong divisions between men and women have shown me that most of
the courtship rituals, arranged marriages and such protect the man from
direct rejection as much as anything else. I would suspect that men
practicing with men was a much safer bet from this point of view. In any
case, we should be wary of projecting our own gender issues (and agendas
too, I might add) onto another culture -- and BA in 1900 was a bona fide
different culture from today.
And I could be wrong...
$.02
Jeff G
Crrtango@aol.com wrote:
> tangopeer wrote:
>
> <<<<I keep waiting for someone to pipe in about men
> dancing with men in BsAs years ago. Isn't that how
> they learned? I've heard dozens of stories about
> that, but I am no historian. Who gots da goods on
> this?>>>>
>
> Although today same-sex people dance with each other and exchange lead and
> follow for different reasons, the main reason men danced with men is fairly
> simple and a product of the cultural milieu of the day. Tango was not considered a
> respectable dance to do and many women, especially young ones, were not
> allowed to go to practicas (inasmuch as they existed in those days). They might go
> to milongas, and even then perhaps accompanied by the parents. We forget in
> our enthusiasm that even in Argentina, tango was frowned upon for years by the
> upper classes and "cultured" people did not dance it, and not all of the
> "lower" classes danced it either. I have known older Argentine women who told me
> their parents did not allow them to dance tango. Men didn't have too many choices
> for practicing steps except with each other, but this enabled them to be
> prepared when they went to the milongas. Tango came out of the bordellos and
> conventillos...not a world you wanted your daughter to be associated with. We may
> smile at the depictions of "compadritos" on stage, but the reality was not so
> romantic. Compadritos often carried knives and violence was a part of the early
> tango world. Canaro writes in his autobiography of knife fights and
> gunshots being exchanged (and barely missing him) at clubs in La Boca. It was a
> different world from the one we know.
> Danel Bastone told me that he often practiced with other men, simply because
> there were no women around to practice with. I have heard the same from Gavito
> and other milongueros I have known. This persisted well in to the forties and
> fifties of the 20th century. We forget in our modern, more-enlightened day
> that the social customs were more restricted than today. Women did not have the
> same freedoms and men had to learn from each other.
>
> Cheers,
> Charles
>
>
> **************
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
>
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:58:57 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] men dancing with men
To: "Jeff Gaynor" <jjg@jqhome.net>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Experimentation with
> the dance to make it more impressive (pretty sure they would have done
> that back then just like the singles on the prowl do it today -- after
> all, we lack plumage...).
Plumage, I love this, Jeff! Propose to make this the tango joke of the year.
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:13:17 +0000
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] men dancing with men
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
> tangopeer wrote:
>
> <<<<I keep waiting for someone to pipe in about men
> dancing with men in BsAs years ago.? Isn't that how
> they learned?? I've heard dozens of stories about
> that, but I am no historian.? Who gots da goods on
> this?>>>>
>
I would dance with men more; but it's that stubble in close embrace is just soo damn prickly!
'Mash
London,UK
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:25:33 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] men dancing with men
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Jeff wrote:
> ... most of the courtship rituals, arranged marriages and such, protect the man from
> direct rejection ...
-----
And isn't this the purported justification of the cabeceo as well?
J
TangoMoments.com
Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:29 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] men dancing with men
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Jeff wrote:
> In the US/UK men have a lot of contact anxiety
I think you'll find this is far less true of UK men than US.
> we should be wary of projecting our own gender issues (and agendas
> too, I might add) onto another culture
See the above, Jeff ;)
Dave wrote:
> I'm hugely disappointed in festival deejays who play only three
> milongas in a tanda. Hey, they're short. Play five!
Can't help you in the US, but you might like to know of the most
milonga-loving tango club I've found in Europe - Tangoloft in Stuttgart,
Germany. The Saturday salon is preceded by a milonga practica. When the
house DJ Kenneth is playing, the salon starts with about 15mins of
milonga, and throughout the night more than average milonga tandas of 4
or sometime 5 tracks. Needless to say, the regulars are above average at
dancing milonga. Also the location is one of the most gorgeous dedicated
tango salons imaginable. Details at http://www.tangostuttgart.de/ .
--
Chris
