262  The Milonga Litmus Test ?

Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:19:05 +0200
From: "Kohlhaas, Bernhard" <bernhard.kohlhaas@SAP.COM>
Subject: The Milonga Litmus Test ?

Hello,

kann someone provide me with a reliable method to distinguish between a
tango and milonga, e.g.
when listening to a piece of music.

For most pieces this is not much of a problem, but especially with some of
the faster, more rhythmical tangos I find it much more difficult (e.g. such
as some of Roberto Firpo's pieces on the CD "Sentimiento Criollo".

So what is the "litmus test" to identify a piece of music as a milonga?

Looking forward to any answers/opinions,

Bernhard

Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:52:02 -0700
From: JeffryesSussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: The Milonga Litmus Test ?

Hi Bernhard,

The Litmus Test is the rhythmic pattern.

Listen to the Habanera from Bizet's opera, Carmen.
The habanera rhythm is identical to the rhythmic
pattern of a milonga. However, a habanera is slow and
a milonga is fast.

There's a historical connection between habanera and
tango. Indeed, old tangos (the kind that people feel
inclined to dance "canyengue" to) often use the same
rhythm as the habanera.

Did you ever watch the old TV show "Dragnet"? The
first part of the Dragnet theme is the same as the
habanera rhythm. (DUM da DUM DUM) That might not
mean anything without musical notation, but that
"dotted" rhythm (it's called a dotted rhythm because
of the symbols that are used to notate it) is repeated
non-stop in a milonga.

Contrast that with a tango, which aligns more with 4
heavy beats per measure (we tend to walk on every
other beat). This difference in feel is why people
tend to like dancing traspie in a milonga. That
DUM-da-DUM-DUM, DUM-da-DUM-DUM repetition lends well
to double time steps to accommodate the tiny "da".

Did that help? Or did that obscure things more?
Listen to that Carmen aria.

Jai

Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:06:33 -0700
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: Milonga Litmus Test

A while back there was a short discussion of what the "litmus" test for
a milonga was. I noticed that there was a slight misinterpretation of
the milonga rhthym.
The rhythm described as a milonga rhythm was actually an older permutation
of the tango rhythm. Some of the first tangos written were adapted from
habaneras or milongas (hence the tango-habenera or tango-milonga denotation
on some of your discs).
These older tangos, take el choclo for example, had a distinctive rhythm,
very similar to the habanera. That rhythm is the dum-da-dum-dum that
was described earlier. Or (1and)(a)(2) (and), the first note being 3/8
of the measure, the second note being 1/8 and the last two notes being
equal quarters. As the tango evolved, this rhythm was dropped in favor
of a simple (1) (and) (2) (and) with the 1 and 2 counts heavily accented.
This discrepency is probably why songs that are older style tangos played
quickly (take almost any tango by Quinteto Pirincho) are often confused
with milongas. You may be able to do some milonga style syncopations
with the latter rhythm, but it does not a milonga make.
The milonga rhythm is: (1) (and) (a) (2) (and)
The first, 3rd and 4th quarter of the measure are equal, with the second
beat divided into eighths.
We still step on the 1 and 2 count, and normal syncopations on the ands,
but the slow quick-quick slow-slow is what makes traspie so irresistable.
That slow quick-quick slow slow is the rhythm that makes a song a milonga,
and allows you to do the more complicated rhythm of traspie. You could
also hit the all of the beats of the older tango rhythm (it's hiding
in there). The poly-rythmic character of the milonga is what gives it
its life and characteristic feel. Some of the possible rhthyms to use
are :From 1-e-and-a 2-e-and-a
step on 1, 2
step on 1,and,2,and
step on 1,a,2,and
step on 1,and,a,2,and
Modern tangos only yield 1,2; 1,and,2,and while the older tangos add
the possiblility of 1,a,2,and
Anyway, hopefully that clears up any confusion, and will give you some
more confidence the next time you hear a "milonga" that's fast enough,
but just doesn't feel right. I like to think of all of the possible
rhythms that you can take from the music, vals is my next challenge.
I'd love to hear any thoughts on possible uses of the vals tempo!
For anyone who'd like to see what the differences i spoke of look like
in the written music, go to todotango.com, look under library, sheet
music and look at el choclo (an old tango) la beba (a relativly new tango)
and then Bartolo (the only example of a milonga that they have). It
should be clear after that.
My regards,
Clayton from San Diego

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:44:27 -0700
From: JeffryesSussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga Litmus Test

--- clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM> wrote:

> A while back there was a short discussion of what
> the "litmus" test for
> a milonga was. I noticed that there was a slight
> misinterpretation of
> the milonga rhthym.
> The rhythm described as a milonga rhythm was
> actually an older permutation
> of the tango rhythm.

Clayton,

This was an excellent post. I've had a question for a
long time about the connection between the old tango
rhythm and the later milonga rhythm. Your summary was
bang-on, and you even made it clear in a medium in
which you couldn't resort to musical notation.

Thanks,
Jai