4490 milonga-milongueros
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 14:11:19 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Last night when Roberto, Chris, and I came home from the milonga in
Avellneda, Chris went right to his computer. We decided to translate
some of the recent posts to Tango-L for Roberto. (OK, I translated)
When I translated the ongoing discussion where Gabriel insists that the
word "milonguero" is used throughout Latin America and his comments,
Roberto screwed up his face and went "Who is saying this" Milonga comes
from Lunfardo and it would be unlikely that other countries other than
Uruguay would adopt it. I asked him "How long have people been dancing
close?" "All of their lives" he answered. I read the posts from the
several people on the list about people not dancing close. He screwed
up his face again and asked "Who are these people?" "Pepito and Miguel
were my teachers." he told us. "Maybe a little bit of separation, but
not open." When I mentioned that someone insisted Ernesto and Julio
Balmaceda and Facundo were milongueros, he laughed out loud. Ernesto
was his student.
Roberto Dentone started to learn to dance tango when he was 10 years
old. His cousin made him learn to follow so he could practice leading.
At 17 he was tired of being the "girl" and demanded to learn to lead.
He started his professional career when he was 30. Before then he
danced tango from when he was 18 until he decided to make it his life.
He is well respected here in Buenos Aires not only by milongueros, but
by show dancers, folkloric dancers, and pretty much anyone who has
contact with him. His whole life is tango except for when I force him
into new experiences. If you know milongueros they speak of the tango
as if it were a person. Their whole life is the dance, the music.
Movies, TV, and pretty much everything else other than food do not
exist. They do not care about money. As long as they have a way to get
to the milonga, buy a bottle of wine for when they go to someone else's
house to eat, and buy shoes, they are happy. The majority have never
been out of Buenos Aires and/or Argentina. You do not have to take my
word for anything, but when I speak with Roberto, Mimi Santapa, Carina
Moriyuen, the late Ricardo Vidort, Gavito, Gachito, and many many
others, I tend to take their word and view of things over anything I
read on Tango-L.
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:28:18 -0700
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: "Deby Novitz" <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
<<When I mentioned that someone insisted Ernesto and Julio Balmaceda and
Facundo were milongueros, he laughed out loud. Ernesto was his student. >>
That someone are Ernesto, Julio and Facundo themselves.
And both Balmaceda brothers claim that their only teacher was their father,
Miguel Balmaceda.
Gabriel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 10:11 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
> Last night when Roberto, Chris, and I came home from the milonga in
> Avellneda, Chris went right to his computer. We decided to translate
> some of the recent posts to Tango-L for Roberto. (OK, I translated)
> When I translated the ongoing discussion where Gabriel insists that the
> word "milonguero" is used throughout Latin America and his comments,
> Roberto screwed up his face and went "Who is saying this" Milonga comes
> from Lunfardo and it would be unlikely that other countries other than
> Uruguay would adopt it. I asked him "How long have people been dancing
> close?" "All of their lives" he answered. I read the posts from the
> several people on the list about people not dancing close. He screwed
> up his face again and asked "Who are these people?" "Pepito and Miguel
> were my teachers." he told us. "Maybe a little bit of separation, but
> not open." When I mentioned that someone insisted Ernesto and Julio
> Balmaceda and Facundo were milongueros, he laughed out loud. Ernesto
> was his student.
>
> Roberto Dentone started to learn to dance tango when he was 10 years
> old. His cousin made him learn to follow so he could practice leading.
> At 17 he was tired of being the "girl" and demanded to learn to lead.
> He started his professional career when he was 30. Before then he
> danced tango from when he was 18 until he decided to make it his life.
> He is well respected here in Buenos Aires not only by milongueros, but
> by show dancers, folkloric dancers, and pretty much anyone who has
> contact with him. His whole life is tango except for when I force him
> into new experiences. If you know milongueros they speak of the tango
> as if it were a person. Their whole life is the dance, the music.
> Movies, TV, and pretty much everything else other than food do not
> exist. They do not care about money. As long as they have a way to get
> to the milonga, buy a bottle of wine for when they go to someone else's
> house to eat, and buy shoes, they are happy. The majority have never
> been out of Buenos Aires and/or Argentina. You do not have to take my
> word for anything, but when I speak with Roberto, Mimi Santapa, Carina
> Moriyuen, the late Ricardo Vidort, Gavito, Gachito, and many many
> others, I tend to take their word and view of things over anything I
> read on Tango-L.
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:30:32 -0500
From: "Michael Figart II" <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Alexis wrote, in response to Deby;
>And here we go again, for another round of arguments of authority
>(or rather worse, authority by proxy).
>What you've failed to recognise, BTW, throughout this entire debate,
>is that "dancing close" and "milonguero style" are not synonymous.
Alexis, what are you talking about? Argument of authority? By proxy?
Deby Novitz has more authority to speak on this subject than just about
anyone else on this list. And Deby hasn't failed to notice anything,
except that there was quite a bit of misleading misinformation being
thrown about. She didn't even offer her opinion, but reported her
observations and the reactions of a milonguero friend.
I, for one, would like to thank Deby for taking the time to send the
informative email (below), and I wish that we could enjoy more like it.
It's very nice to be able to read about the milongueros and their
thoughts. I wish I knew more Spanish so I could converse fluently when I
am in Buenos Aires. For now I have to rely on the translations provided
by Deby, and a few others, to get my news "straight from the horse's
mouth".
Thank you Deby, and Roberto, very much.
Regards,
Michael Figart II
Houston Tx
Deby Novitz wrote;
Last night when Roberto, Chris, and I came home from the milonga in
Avellneda, Chris went right to his computer. We decided to translate
some of the recent posts to Tango-L for Roberto. (OK, I translated)
When I translated the ongoing discussion where Gabriel insists that the
word "milonguero" is used throughout Latin America and his comments,
Roberto screwed up his face and went "Who is saying this" Milonga
comes
from Lunfardo and it would be unlikely that other countries other than
Uruguay would adopt it. I asked him "How long have people been dancing
close?" "All of their lives" he answered. I read the posts from the
several people on the list about people not dancing close. He screwed
up his face again and asked "Who are these people?" "Pepito and Miguel
were my teachers." he told us. "Maybe a little bit of separation, but
not open." When I mentioned that someone insisted Ernesto and Julio
Balmaceda and Facundo were milongueros, he laughed out loud. Ernesto
was his student.
Roberto Dentone started to learn to dance tango when he was 10 years
old. His cousin made him learn to follow so he could practice leading.
At 17 he was tired of being the "girl" and demanded to learn to lead.
He started his professional career when he was 30. Before then he
danced tango from when he was 18 until he decided to make it his life.
He is well respected here in Buenos Aires not only by milongueros, but
by show dancers, folkloric dancers, and pretty much anyone who has
contact with him. His whole life is tango except for when I force him
into new experiences. If you know milongueros they speak of the tango
as if it were a person. Their whole life is the dance, the music.
Movies, TV, and pretty much everything else other than food do not
exist. They do not care about money. As long as they have a way to
get
to the milonga, buy a bottle of wine for when they go to someone else's
house to eat, and buy shoes, they are happy. The majority have never
been out of Buenos Aires and/or Argentina. You do not have to take my
word for anything, but when I speak with Roberto, Mimi Santapa, Carina
Moriyuen, the late Ricardo Vidort, Gavito, Gachito, and many many
others, I tend to take their word and view of things over anything I
read on Tango-L.
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 15:15:48 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Deby Novitz has more authority to speak on this subject than just about
> anyone else on this list. And Deby hasn't failed to notice anything,
> except that there was quite a bit of misleading misinformation being
> thrown about. She didn't even offer her opinion, but reported her
> observations and the reactions of a milonguero friend.
>
Thank you, Michael, for pointing this out.
Sadly, sensible information on this list is lately often used by a small
number of what I quietly (no more) call "vultures", who seem to have nothing
better to do than to swoop down on other people's postings, pick them apart
and throw their egos around on this list. In Germany we say:"Paper is
patient".
Deby wrote:
> close?" "All of their lives" he answered. I read the posts from the
> several people on the list about people not dancing close. He screwed
> up his face again and asked "Who are these people?" "Pepito and Miguel
> were my teachers." he told us. "Maybe a little bit of separation, but
> not open." When I mentioned that someone insisted Ernesto and Julio
> Balmaceda and Facundo were milongueros, he laughed out loud. Ernesto
> was his student.
>
Five years ago Nito and Elba came to Tokyo, together with Julio Balmaceda
and Corinna de la Rosa. Nito told us that Julio had once been his student.
When I mentioned this on the list, soon a lady from California posted the
following:"Julio Balmaceda wishes to inform you that the only person who
ever taught him tango was his father." Then I received mail from someone
else, telling me that as long as Julio's (famous) father was alive, Julio
showed no particular interest in tango.
It is up to you who you choose to believe. But I personally think, styling
your past a little to suit the resume you need for a job application is
quite a common practise. And it seems, especially (beg your pardon) among
dance teachers, at least in my experience.
Astrid
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:29:58 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
Michael Figart II wrote:
> Alexis, what are you talking about? Argument of authority? By proxy?
I mean that Deby is perfectly capable of argumenting on her own
authority - there's no reason to drag the (undocumented) opinion
of any Argentines into the picture once again.
I'm getting really tired of arguments degenerating into constant
"I just met <insert famous Argentine> and he patted me on
the back and told me I was right" style comments.
The class of Argentine milongueros is like the bible: the corpus
is so large that it is usually possible to find separate quotes
to support both sides of any argument (at least arguments made
by people who've been dancing successfully over the years ;) ).
Perhaps I'm only a worthless peon, but I do prefer *reasoned*
debate.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:56:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: burl burl <burlq7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com> wrote:
I, for one, would like to thank Deby for taking the time to send the
informative email (below), and I wish that we could enjoy more like it.
It's very nice to be able to read about the milongueros and their
thoughts. I wish I knew more Spanish so I could converse fluently when
I
am in Buenos Aires. For now I have to rely on the translations provided
by Deby, and a few others, to get my news "straight from the horse's
mouth".
I couldn't agree more:
God knows I care what some old biddy down in south america thinks. If I begin to suspect I am not doing what they do (like not watching TV or just buying shoes) it will completely undermine my lead.
Worse still, what if I am doing what they do but calling it something else (or miss pronouncing it too)?
What I really need to do is travel down there and get authenticated by some old folks who were alive in 1897 or so. Then at least I wouldn't always worry that maybe what I thought was a milonga was actually a tango.
yours
Burleigh
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:02:42 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: El Mundo del Tango <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
For the record no teachers ever admits that they take or have taken
classes from other teachers...only when the teachers are dead. Mimi
once said if the people who teach would tell them that she had been
their teacher, then they would take from her, not that teacher. She
says no one ever admits it. Case in point, Carlos Gavito started taking
lessons from her father when he was 16. He studied with Mariano I think
8 years. He never once talked about those beginning lessons. Instead
he talks about learning in the milongas. After knowing Mimi, knowing
Gavito, it was very clear to me the influence of his dance. Yes, he
adjusted the movements to his own style as any dancer should, but his
foundation was pure Marianito.
Once in conversation with the both of them (Gavito and Mimi) he talked
about her father. They talked about learning together. Yet, Gavito
never mentions his time with both of them. Simply put, if you knew he
studied with her father, then you would take from the daughter.
The dance world is competitive, jealous, and to be honest ugly at
times. It is not always about wonderful soulful music, and people who
love to dance.
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 23:55:39 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: "burl burl" <burlq7@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
God knows I care what some old biddy down in south america thinks.
yours
Burleigh
Each word in that sentence speaks for itself, and vouches for the writer's
character.
Naturally, we all can't wait to know what some redneck up in the Northern
hemisphere thinks, who lives in the illusion that acting chauvy style macho
makes him more attractive to women in tango.
with courtesies from
Astrid
wearing her flame proof suit for more nonsense coming up.
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:16:39 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"God knows I care what some old biddy down in south america thinks.
yours
Burleigh"
Each word in that sentence speaks for itself, and vouches for the writer's
character.
--- Astrid
.....
100% in agreement with you, Astrid.
Caroline
Play Q6 for your chance to WIN great prizes.
https://q6trivia.imagine-live.com/enca/landing
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
--- Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> wrote:
> I mean that Deby is perfectly capable of argumenting
> on her own
> authority - there's no reason to drag the
> (undocumented) opinion
> of any Argentines into the picture once again.
Of course she's capable of arguing on her own
authority, and she does it very well, but there is
nothing at all wrong with posting that of a higher
authority also. Everybody likes a good affirmation,
and I want to read more from the people who've been
dancing in Buenos Aires for 40 years.
> I'm getting really tired of arguments degenerating
> into constant
> "I just met <insert famous Argentine> and he patted
> me on
> the back and told me I was right" style comments.
I haven't noticed that this is a "constant", but I'll
do the same thing should I need help supporting a
thesis rejected out of hand.
> The class of Argentine milongueros is like the
> bible: the corpus
> is so large that it is usually possible......
Unfortunately, this is not true. The "real"
milongueros are disappearing. Another reason that I
relish the postings providing a glimpse into their
lives, thoughts, feelings. They will all be gone
someday.
Regards,
Michael
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:06:12 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Michael Figart II wrote:
> Of course she's capable of arguing on her own
> authority, and she does it very well, but there is
> nothing at all wrong with posting that of a higher
> authority also.
Obviously, but I'd still rather see argument than *mere*
(casual) opinion, be it descended from the BsAs heavens.
There's also the small matter of unfalsifiability when
you present an opinion of a "higher authority" that
was merely conveyed in private (not to mention distortions
necessarily introduced when the authority is not
actively participitating, but by proxy) - there's no
way for us to ascertain whether Deby conveyed the arguments
expressed on the list clearly, nor how she (unwittingly)
filtered the response. Of course, we can rely on Deby's
*own* authority should we choose so, but you can see
where this all can lead. Before you know it, someone
else can do the same thing on the other side of any argument
and the topic degenerates into an authority slinging
wrestling match.
Even Argentines are fallible humans who tend to say
different things in different contexts, and especially
when one milonguero has to comment on another one (or more
likely, someone he doesn't think is a true milonguero
like himself ;) ) - just as Deby herself indicated.
Which makes their opinion much more useful when the reasoning
behind them is explained (which also makes their opinion
much more interesting to us), and when the opinion is expressed
first hand, and in a context in which they're likely to have
thought carefully about expressing their views, and when you
can find a publically accessible source.
Of course, I do agree that Holy Grail of the Wikipedia "Neutral
Point of View" isn't something we can always achieve perfectly,
but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it.
All that being said, I wasn't carping on Deby - other people have
used that same mechanism to defend positions that were a lot less
tenable.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:12:15 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: al@sgi.com, michaelfigart@yahoo.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
>Even Argentines are fallible humans
No way, obviously you've not discussed this with the Portenios ;-) LOL
Manuel
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:47:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: burl burl <burlq7@yahoo.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Burleigh,
Would you be so generous in offering your opinion of Deby if you
were face-to-face with her and some of her friends?
Or, if that is too intimidating for you, would you say the same
thing to Deby if she was alone?
Or is that too scary a thought?
Do you treat women at milongas with the same courtesy and respect
you show Deby here on Tango-L?
I guess I'm just full of questions.
During the time that Deby was in the US, and I had the privilege of
dancing with her, I used to think, "Why is this SF Bay area hottie
dancing with me?"
ramiro
> God knows I care what some old biddy down in south america
> thinks. If I begin to suspect I am not doing what they do (like
> not watching TV or just buying shoes) it will completely undermine
> my lead.
>
> Worse still, what if I am doing what they do but calling it
> something else (or miss pronouncing it too)?
>
> What I really need to do is travel down there and get
> authenticated by some old folks who were alive in 1897 or so.
> Then at least I wouldn't always worry that maybe what I thought
> was a milonga was actually a tango.
>
> yours
> Burleigh
ramiro garcia
ramiro9@yahoo.com
---
In their feud [Stalin and Trotsky] both were right. Stalin was right in
maintaining that his regime was the embodiment of socialist principles.
Trotsky was right in asserting that Stalin's regime had made Russia a hell.
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 01:18:50 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] milonga-milongueros
To: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Cc: michaelfigart@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu
WHITE 95 R wrote:
>> Even Argentines are fallible humans
>
> No way, obviously you've not discussed this with the Portenios ;-) LOL
>
Any porte?o will agree the *other* porte?os are fallible ;).
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
