4727 Milongas (or Practicas) in Denver
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:26:50 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas (or Practicas) in Denver
On Jan 26, 2007, at 2:55 PM, Chris, UK wrote:
>> A better Colorado website is put out by Tango Colorado:
>>
>> https://TangoColorado.org
>
> Can this really be correct? Colorado state has only two weekly
> milongas?
>
> Yet over twenty weekly classes/practicas? I wonder where all these
> class
> students go to actually dance...
>
> Chris
The question is: "What REALLY is a milonga and what REALLY is a
practice?".
One big clue: It is NOT necessarily about the label or name chosen by
the organizer.
The first issue is that Milonga means party, which has expectations
of certain kinds of social encounters (e.g. meeting friends and
strangers for dances) and not others (e.g. teaching on the dance floor).
Second, I'm of the opinion that you can't truly have a milonga with
fewer than 50 or 60 people, i.e. 25 couples. This is relative and
depends on a few other factors. In a small space you could have a
great party with fewer people; a large space eats up social energy,
and may require 100 or more people.
Third, I note that milongas in Buenos Aires are arranged in a
particular way. They have chairs for everybody so they can sit
between tandas, and a dance floor delimited by tables, so you don't
get people walking across the dance floor to the bathroom or bar.
Lights are relatively bright so you can watch the dancers and easily
catch an eye for a dance. DJ plays tandas with curtinas for changing
of partners. There is an expectation of meeting people for a dance,
not working out new moves.
Fourth. Practicas in Buenos Aires are often "guided classes". I guess
that is different from a practice space where people just come to dance.
Fifth. Is the DJ a paid professional, or just running scramble on the
ipod?
Denver (not Colorado):
Denver, a metro area of perhaps 3 million people, has tango dances
every night of the week, with lower or higher attendance. Some events
are labeled milongas others practicas. Three nights (Tues, Fri & Sat)
regularly go over 60 or 80 people. We don't really have any "guided
practicas", to the best of my knowledge, all the weekly dances are
for dancing not teaching.
Which events in Denver could reasonably be called Milongas, and which
are really practicas?
In fairness you can call the three largest events milongas:
TUESDAY. Paid DJ. 120 - 160 or more people show up at the Tuesday
"practice" produced by Tango Colorado in a large ballroom in the
center of Denver. Even though it is called a practice, the event is
really a milonga if you look at the attendance, high social energy,
and expectations of the attendees. You have a large crowd, dance
floor surrounded by tables and chairs, music usually organized in
Tandas, circular flow of the dance floor, decent navigation (for the
most part). The room is split in order to keep the milonga energy on
the North half of the room. The South half is available for people
who want to practice. It keeps the stoppers and tricksters from
disturbing the flow of the dancers on the other side.
FRIDAY. Paid DJ and/or Orchestra. 100 - 150 people show up every week
at our Friday milonga at the Mercury Cafe. This event is without
question a milonga. It is located in a funky, bohemian sort of
nightclub, where swing dancers meet on other nights. We sometimes
have a DJ; other times a tango orchestra. People show up with the
special intention of dancing tango, not practicing moves or talking
on the dance floor.
SATURDAY. Organizer DJ. We usually get 50 - 100 people on Saturdays,
which rotates between Denver and Boulder. Both events are labeled
milongas, which is a fair label based on social energy and peoples
expectations. Special circumstances will drive attendance higher or
lower than normal
Here are a couple events that aren't really milongas:
THURSDAY. Paid DJ. In comparision on Thursday Tango Colorado produces
another practice in a studio in Boulder, without any seating, with
mirrors on the wall and the DJ usually doesn't play tandas. This only
gets attendance of 30 - 40, so you really have to call it a practice.
WEDNESDAY. Organizer DJ. In the same nightclub (the Mercury Cafe) as
Friday, I put on a "milonga" after my classes. The space says
milongas, but it usually feels more like a practice because the crowd
is casual and small. Over time, I hope to evolved it to a "real"
milonga, but I have to admit a visitor wouldn't label it a milonga.
Sure, I always welcome visitors, but to be fair I normally steer them
to the bigger events on Tuesday, Friday and Saturday.
So, we have some "practicas" that are more like milongas and some
"milongas" more like practicas.
I'll bet it is the same in pretty much everywhere.
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 02:20 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milongas (or Practicas) in Denver
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
OK, I stand corrected:
> Denver, a metro area of perhaps 3 million people
has not 2 milongas a week, but 2.5. Along with approx. 20 classes etc.
> I'll bet it is the same in pretty much everywhere.
No, Tom. A European city of that size has about ten times as many milongas.
Neil wrote:
> There's more money in teaching that in running a milonga. That's why we
> are blessed with such a wealth of 'teachers' in Colorado, and thus; many
> classes.
Well, same here... except the determining factor is not number of teachers
but number of interested students - they are relatively few, and hence so
are classes. People much prefer to spend their tango time in milongas.
What puzzles me is why USA people find spending tango time in classes
preferable. By (apparently) a factor of 10.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Tango in the USA
*From:* "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
*To:* tl2@chrisjj.com
*CC:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:23:12 -0800
There's more money in teaching that in running a milonga. That's why we are
blessed with such a wealth of 'teachers' in Colorado, and thus; many
classes.
Neil
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:55 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
>
> > A better Colorado website is put out by Tango Colorado:
> >
> > https://TangoColorado.org
>
> Can this really be correct? Colorado state has only two weekly milongas?
>
> Yet over twenty weekly classes/practicas? I wonder where all these class
> students go to actually dance...
>
> Chris
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:46:03 +1100
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milongas (or Practicas) in Denver
<9fb1555a0701262246s34b7f4c9qc256e7562ee3a4b1@mail.gmail.com>
Chris.
Most people in the US treat tango as a sport, so they are most comfortable
approaching it in a sweatpants-wearing, water bottle-toting, dance
sneakers-wearing setting such as a class or a practica.
This is the fundamental reason why tango in the US is, -and will remain, so
far removed from Argentine Tango. Most people do not seek to attend an event
where they can sit down and socialize with friends, drink a glass of wine,
enjoy some beautiful music and perhaps a dance or two (as you would in a
milonga), they seek a place where they can practice their steps and
combinations. This is why classes and practicas are generally more
attractive to people here.
Neil
On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 02:20 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
>
> OK, I stand corrected:
>
> > Denver, a metro area of perhaps 3 million people
>
> has not 2 milongas a week, but 2.5. Along with approx. 20 classes etc.
>
> > I'll bet it is the same in pretty much everywhere.
>
> No, Tom. A European city of that size has about ten times as many
> milongas.
>
> Neil wrote:
>
> > There's more money in teaching that in running a milonga. That's why we
> > are blessed with such a wealth of 'teachers' in Colorado, and thus; many
> > classes.
>
> Well, same here... except the determining factor is not number of teachers
> but number of interested students - they are relatively few, and hence so
> are classes. People much prefer to spend their tango time in milongas.
>
> What puzzles me is why USA people find spending tango time in classes
> preferable. By (apparently) a factor of 10.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Tango in the USA
> *From:* "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
> *To:* tl2@chrisjj.com
> *CC:* tango-l@mit.edu
> *Date:* Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:23:12 -0800
>
> There's more money in teaching that in running a milonga. That's why we
> are
> blessed with such a wealth of 'teachers' in Colorado, and thus; many
> classes.
>
> Neil
>
>
> On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:55 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
> tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> >
> > > A better Colorado website is put out by Tango Colorado:
> > >
> > > https://TangoColorado.org
> >
> > Can this really be correct? Colorado state has only two weekly milongas?
> >
> > Yet over twenty weekly classes/practicas? I wonder where all these class
> > students go to actually dance...
> >
> > Chris
>
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 02:47:37 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milongas (or Practicas) in Denver
Chris, Neil,
Here, I believe, we are getting into some very important cultural
differences. In the U.S., I do not see very many people drinking
coffee or wine with their friends in the summertime on some plaza
cafe at 2AM and actually spending 3-4 hours just sitting there
chatting. In Argentina, for example, when a woman has a problem, she
takes coffee with her 10 friends, one at a time, and then she feels
much better and might even have a solution to the problem. In the
U.S., such a woman would need to make a lunch appointment with most
of those friends at least 2-3 weeks in advance (I speak from personal
experience) :-)
Again, this brings me back to the question of values. Americans
value "doing", while Argentines value "being". This is ironic,
considering that English language is mostly about prepositions, while
Spanish is all about verbs. Perhaps people focus in the language on
that which is NOT happening.
Wasting a huge amount of time in a stylish and classy way is an art
in itself. Argentines do at the milongas exactly what they do
elsewhere - they hang out, spend time with friends, and listen to
some music. Just being with people has great value. The whole
ritual of taking mate in the afternoons takes hours. At a milonga,
the only difference is that people also might dance.
Americans do not hang out with friends in the same way. The norm is
that there would be a scheduled dinner, lunch or a party, with a set
time limit. People do not casually share their time with one
another. Time is spent "doing" instead of "being".
So in a milonga, one has to plan to waste a lot of time in a really
"classy" way (and you have to pronounce "claassy" like the gangsters
did in the old movies), while in a tango class one has to do, do, do
something! This is a huge difference in values. In order to chose
milongas over classes, people need to begin to value wasting, and I
mean really wasting (by the standards of their cultures), lots and
lots of time.
Warm regards to all,
Nina
At 11:46 PM 1/26/2007, Tango Tango wrote:
>Chris.
>
>Most people in the US treat tango as a sport, so they are most comfortable
>approaching it in a sweatpants-wearing, water bottle-toting, dance
>sneakers-wearing setting such as a class or a practica.
>
>This is the fundamental reason why tango in the US is, -and will remain, so
>far removed from Argentine Tango. Most people do not seek to attend an event
>where they can sit down and socialize with friends, drink a glass of wine,
>enjoy some beautiful music and perhaps a dance or two (as you would in a
>milonga), they seek a place where they can practice their steps and
>combinations. This is why classes and practicas are generally more
>attractive to people here.
>
>Neil
>
>On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 02:20 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
>tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> >
> > OK, I stand corrected:
> >
> > > Denver, a metro area of perhaps 3 million people
> >
> > has not 2 milongas a week, but 2.5. Along with approx. 20 classes etc.
> >
> > > I'll bet it is the same in pretty much everywhere.
> >
> > No, Tom. A European city of that size has about ten times as many
> > milongas.
> >
> > Neil wrote:
> >
> > > There's more money in teaching that in running a milonga. That's why we
> > > are blessed with such a wealth of 'teachers' in Colorado, and thus; many
> > > classes.
> >
> > Well, same here... except the determining factor is not number of teachers
> > but number of interested students - they are relatively few, and hence so
> > are classes. People much prefer to spend their tango time in milongas.
> >
> > What puzzles me is why USA people find spending tango time in classes
> > preferable. By (apparently) a factor of 10.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> >
> > *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Tango in the USA
> > *From:* "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
> > *To:* tl2@chrisjj.com
> > *CC:* tango-l@mit.edu
> > *Date:* Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:23:12 -0800
> >
> > There's more money in teaching that in running a milonga. That's why we
> > are
> > blessed with such a wealth of 'teachers' in Colorado, and thus; many
> > classes.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:55 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
> > tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > A better Colorado website is put out by Tango Colorado:
> > > >
> > > > https://TangoColorado.org
> > >
> > > Can this really be correct? Colorado state has only two weekly milongas?
> > >
> > > Yet over twenty weekly classes/practicas? I wonder where all these class
> > > students go to actually dance...
> > >
> > > Chris
> >
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:28:15 -0700
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milongas (or Practicas) in Denver
To: "'Nina Pesochinsky'" <nina@earthnet.net>, "Tango L list"
Bloody beautiful Nina.
Sitting here with mate
Seems if there is an intent behind any of your examples (American or
Argentine) then this is a very good thing.
Anything else, you're just spinning your wheels. Absolutely crazy!
David~
(Wondering if I got the last word in on this one thing).
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milongas (or Practicas) in Denver
Chris, Neil,
Here, I believe, we are getting into some very important cultural
differences. In the U.S., I do not see very many people drinking
coffee or wine with their friends in the summertime on some plaza
cafe at 2AM and actually spending 3-4 hours just sitting there
chatting. In Argentina, for example, when a woman has a problem, she
takes coffee with her 10 friends, one at a time, and then she feels
much better and might even have a solution to the problem. In the
U.S., such a woman would need to make a lunch appointment with most
of those friends at least 2-3 weeks in advance (I speak from personal
experience) :-)
Again, this brings me back to the question of values. Americans
value "doing", while Argentines value "being". This is ironic,
considering that English language is mostly about prepositions, while
Spanish is all about verbs. Perhaps people focus in the language on
that which is NOT happening.
Wasting a huge amount of time in a stylish and classy way is an art
in itself. Argentines do at the milongas exactly what they do
elsewhere - they hang out, spend time with friends, and listen to
some music. Just being with people has great value. The whole
ritual of taking mate in the afternoons takes hours. At a milonga,
the only difference is that people also might dance.
Americans do not hang out with friends in the same way. The norm is
that there would be a scheduled dinner, lunch or a party, with a set
time limit. People do not casually share their time with one
another. Time is spent "doing" instead of "being".
So in a milonga, one has to plan to waste a lot of time in a really
"classy" way (and you have to pronounce "claassy" like the gangsters
did in the old movies), while in a tango class one has to do, do, do
something! This is a huge difference in values. In order to chose
milongas over classes, people need to begin to value wasting, and I
mean really wasting (by the standards of their cultures), lots and
lots of time.
Warm regards to all,
Nina
At 11:46 PM 1/26/2007, Tango Tango wrote:
>Chris.
>
>Most people in the US treat tango as a sport, so they are most comfortable
>approaching it in a sweatpants-wearing, water bottle-toting, dance
>sneakers-wearing setting such as a class or a practica.
>
>This is the fundamental reason why tango in the US is, -and will remain, so
>far removed from Argentine Tango. Most people do not seek to attend an
event
>where they can sit down and socialize with friends, drink a glass of wine,
>enjoy some beautiful music and perhaps a dance or two (as you would in a
>milonga), they seek a place where they can practice their steps and
>combinations. This is why classes and practicas are generally more
>attractive to people here.
>
>Neil
>
>On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 02:20 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
>tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> >
> > OK, I stand corrected:
> >
> > > Denver, a metro area of perhaps 3 million people
> >
> > has not 2 milongas a week, but 2.5. Along with approx. 20 classes etc.
> >
> > > I'll bet it is the same in pretty much everywhere.
> >
> > No, Tom. A European city of that size has about ten times as many
> > milongas.
> >
> > Neil wrote:
> >
> > > There's more money in teaching that in running a milonga. That's why
we
> > > are blessed with such a wealth of 'teachers' in Colorado, and thus;
many
> > > classes.
> >
> > Well, same here... except the determining factor is not number of
teachers
> > but number of interested students - they are relatively few, and hence
so
> > are classes. People much prefer to spend their tango time in milongas.
> >
> > What puzzles me is why USA people find spending tango time in classes
> > preferable. By (apparently) a factor of 10.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> >
> > *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Tango in the USA
> > *From:* "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
> > *To:* tl2@chrisjj.com
> > *CC:* tango-l@mit.edu
> > *Date:* Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:23:12 -0800
> >
> > There's more money in teaching that in running a milonga. That's why we
> > are
> > blessed with such a wealth of 'teachers' in Colorado, and thus; many
> > classes.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:55 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
> > tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > A better Colorado website is put out by Tango Colorado:
> > > >
> > > > https://TangoColorado.org
> > >
> > > Can this really be correct? Colorado state has only two weekly
milongas?
> > >
> > > Yet over twenty weekly classes/practicas? I wonder where all these
class
> > > students go to actually dance...
> > >
> > > Chris
> >
