3954  Newbie question - reading list

Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:02:28 -0500
From: Martin Waxman <martin@WAXMAN.NET>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

At 10:50 AM 11/2/2005, Jeff Gaynor wrote:

>...am trying to find ways to shore
>up my understanding from a higher perspective.

Jeff,
I was OK until the statement above.
I cannot imagine what you mean by "higher perspective".
Please explain it to me in simple terms.
If you cannot explain it, how will you know when you do receive that
"higher perspective"?

Marty

Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:27:48 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@JQHOME.NET>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

A lot of instruction for us beginners tends to the mechanical and
repetitive. This is excellent, of course, and needs to be there to
develop the body sense to react. Most people are not used to thinking in
term of principles of movement -- which are usually confusing to
beginners and best left for later. I'm trying to isolate a few core
principles of movement and see how they can percolate through the dance.

Also, I'm sure that there are standard terms for many things in tango
and I need to be able to understand these from a more precise technical
angle before being able to coherently express myself generally. Getting
terms nailed down plus a goodly listing of principles is my first task
I've assigned myself. If there is a better way to go about it, do tell.

Once I can grasp what the fundamental of the movements are, I have a
much better chance of starting to improvise rather than plod.

==== An example follows, which might make sense. ====

Back ochos -- what makes them tick in close embrace? The normal way they
are taught to start is with a double step then moving the body offline a
wee bit as you walk (all this is the man's perspective). There are two
ways this could cause them either (careful here, vocabulary is from a
lay perspective so I hope this makes sense)

(1) my weight which is shifting counter to her step (e.g. I step to my
left as she steps back with her left) or

(2) the projection with my trailing side (e.g. I step left with my left
and my right side is moving to my left front corner as she steps with
her left foot).

Could I do something like, say, do a cross step in front + pivot and
repeat (so essentially do a front ocho to make her do a back ocho)?
Could I do this with some sort of repeated step behind? If just a weight
shift, both should work, if a projection only the first should work,
since on the second the trailing side will be turned a bit a way from
her. Not saying these are good ways to do a back ocho, just examples
that help me understand it at a different level than footwork. As a
newbie I also need to be advised since I can probably muscle it and make
it work, but that would violate the style of the dance. Last thing I
want is to play Highland Games with my partner, you know. :-)

Er, does this help or am I just chatting myself up? Since this list has
been around for some time, there has probably been a discussion
someplace of this (still slogging through archives, but if you remember
the thread name do tell).

Cheers,

Jeff

> At 10:50 AM 11/2/2005, Jeff Gaynor wrote:
>
>> ...am trying to find ways to shore
>> up my understanding from a higher perspective.
>
>
> Jeff,
> I was OK until the statement above.
> I cannot imagine what you mean by "higher perspective".
> Please explain it to me in simple terms.
> If you cannot explain it, how will you know when you do receive that
> "higher perspective"?
>
> Marty
>

Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:42:18 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

>Er, does this help or am I just chatting myself up? Since this list has
>been around for some time, there has probably been a discussion
>someplace of this (still slogging through archives, but if you remember
>the thread name do tell).
>
>Cheers,
>
>Jeff

Jeff, please go back to your teacher and learn to dance tango. If your
teacher is deficient, please find another. Oh yeah, if you really want to
learn about tango, movement, and the mechanics of dancing tango, don't get
all caught up in the "close embrace or nothing" mentality. There are many
ways to lead, follow and perform the tango dance. In close embrace (apilado)
the mechanics are very different and fewer. Sounds to me that you are not
satisfied or happy with whatever you are learning or whomever your are
taking classes with. Maybe there is nothing wrong with the tango teaching
methodology of most teachers. It's just that you've apparently not been
exposed to it.

Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 17:07:48 -0800
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

Let's save you some time with the archive-slogging:

https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2001/msg00217.html

Michael
Tango Bellingham

Jeff Gaynor wrote:

>
> Er, does this help or am I just chatting myself up? Since this list has
> been around for some time, there has probably been a discussion
> someplace of this (still slogging through archives, but if you remember
> the thread name do tell).
>
> Cheers,
>

Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:33:59 EST
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

Jeff,
As a beginner on the end of my second year of lessons and trying, and a
person who tends to be a bit over analytical, I found my early lessons to be
somewhat frustrating. Terms and comments that did not translate into action, I
don't speak Spanish, I was presented patterns that require multiple actions by
different muscles groups, and by the way there was music involved too. I
was taking two lessons a week, I was repeating the basic class over and over
for 8 months, after the first month I started taking Tango 2 also. So I began
the evening with a repetition of the basics then I would explore. My
instructors were patient. It was also helpful they offered repeat students of the
basic class the class at half price.
What this did was allow me to start focusing on the basics walking steadily
and being always in the process of being in balance. The more in balance I
was, the more I could feel the balance of my follow, who have similar problems.
This allowed me to learn to connect. Everything is a step followed by
another step. One balance point to another. Soon you started to feel that both you
and your partner are making mutual adjustments, the feelings of connection
enhance the music, which you are now beginning to feel and hear.
Time, patience and practice are the key. I don't think the cognitive
analysis approach kicks in until you start to feel comfortable moving around the
floor. The analysis then will help you perfect or understand the changes you
need.
I teach skiing and bio-mechanical analysis of my student's movements is
essential for me to help them improve. But can be absolutely hindering to the
student if you try to explain it to them in a movement analysis manner. A good
teacher places the student in a position where they do learn and have fun.
The more the student is critical of themselves the more time that elapses
between steps and the music goes on and frustration builds both for the student
and his or her partner. I have found that if I can build a student's
confidence that
1. They believe that I know what they can do and the limitations they have.
2. That I will never place them in a position that they don't have the
ability to do something I am trying to share with them (this does mean I won't
take them out of their comfort zone) and finally
3. That they always have fun trying.
I have found that in trying to learn Tango I have found two instructor's
that are able to help me in this manner. It is fun and I learn.
With that said, it does not mean that when I go home I don't tear what I did
apart and analyze it, dance alone to duplicate both the lead and follow's
movements, but this to answer my analytical needs an understanding of how I can
do what I need to do an learn.
I might be wrong in reading your desire for a "higher perspective" as a
better understanding and an increased comfort level in dancing Tango. Which is
where I think we are all going.
Relax and enjoy,
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle

Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:09:17 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@JQHOME.NET>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

>
> Jeff, please go back to your teacher and learn to dance tango.

I am learning and doing very well, thank you very much.

> If your
> teacher is deficient, please find another. Oh yeah, if you really want to
> learn about tango, movement, and the mechanics of dancing tango, don't
> get
> all caught up in the "close embrace or nothing" mentality.

This gets back to a question of learning. How did you learn tango? From
your teachers? I suspect the answer is yes and no. Yes in that they
taught you, but no in that you had to learn a lot of stuff for yourself.
It was their guidance that allowed you to make all that hard work turn
you into the person you are. If they did their job -- and I'm sure they
did -- you now understand what the subject should be, not just the
subject. World of difference there. Here is what I think on the topic of
learning:

https://jqhome.net/ma/common/intuition.html

Now, that said, I find for me that it is best to learn one style very
well of whatever to have a basis. From there it is much easier to keep
straight what the differences are. In trying to be a good student, I
understand the pitfall of just acquiring a ton of random technique and
not being able to separate out basics from fundamentals from fun. (See
my other post on fundamentals.)

> There are many
> ways to lead, follow and perform the tango dance. In close embrace
> (apilado)
> the mechanics are very different and fewer. Sounds to me that you are not
> satisfied or happy with whatever you are learning or whomever your are
> taking classes with.

Oh I'm quite pleased with my instruction. But what model do you have for
a teacher? Is a student always a student? I don't buy it. The aim of
instruction is not to foster dependency but independence. Students
should be inspired enough to start investigating on their own and then
become responsible members of their community. No matter how good or
patient my teachers are, pestering them with a ton of questions while I
explore and get it straight in my own head is an enormous imposition on
their good humor. It is better to tool around in a list like this and
find like minded people who are exploring too and are more than happy to
exchange notes and have animated discussions. Then I can ask the pointed
questions as needed.


Cheers,

Jeff

Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:53:07 EST
From: Sherwin Berger <TangoSherwin@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

Hey newbie...

The way to learn Tango after some basic lessons is to get out and dance
Tango at the local milongas. Don't be shy. Just start with the basic walk and
throw in a few simple moves like leading ochos and basic giros. Whatever you
have learned.

Watch the good dancers and try to pick up things they do like collecting
(pauses) and simple foot adornments. Concentrate on your frame and your stance
and moving slow and sexy and appropriately to the rhythm of the music.

Don't just dance with beginners...Try to dance with partners who are more
experienced than you. They probably will offer suggestions ( hopefully in a
kindly manner) and may even tell you "thank you...that was lovely" What an ego
boost that is!

Most of all, enjoy the connection with a lovely partner and the thrill of
the dance.

Sherwin Berger
Chicago

Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:08:21 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

Hi Jeff,

Welcome to Tango-L and a tango community that can be,
well, difficult, at times. I applaud your search for
material and questioning nature. We all learn
differently, and I suggest going with whatever works
for you. Like yourself, I preferred a cognitive
approach in a linear fashion when I first started. It
took me years to appreciate more abstract teaching
methods, but it happened when my brain was ready for
it.

As to your original question, Mauricio Castro has a
series of books on Tango: The Structure of the Dance.
I only have the first one. In the second half he
talks about tango theory, focusing on the combinations
of the open, front cross, and back cross steps. This
may be what you are looking for. The first half is
about basic patterns. He does not discuss
leading/following (though it has been a few years
since I have read it.)

I am too far away from my graduate school days when I
could get into a rather pedantic reading material like
Castro's book, but if it works for you, go for it!

Happy reading,
Trini de Pittsburgh






--- Jeff Gaynor <jjg@JQHOME.NET> wrote:

> This gets back to a question of learning. How did
> you learn tango? From
> your teachers? I suspect the answer is yes and no.
> Yes in that they
> taught you, but no in that you had to learn a lot of
> stuff for yourself.
> It was their guidance that allowed you to make all
> that hard work turn
> you into the person you are. If they did their job
> -- and I'm sure they
> did -- you now understand what the subject should
> be, not just the
> subject. World of difference there. Here is what I
> think on the topic of
> learning:
>
> https://jqhome.net/ma/common/intuition.html
>
> Now, that said, I find for me that it is best to
> learn one style very
> well of whatever to have a basis. From there it is
> much easier to keep
> straight what the differences are. In trying to be a
> good student, I
> understand the pitfall of just acquiring a ton of
> random technique and
> not being able to separate out basics from
> fundamentals from fun. (See
> my other post on fundamentals.)
>
> > There are many
> > ways to lead, follow and perform the tango dance.
> In close embrace
> > (apilado)
> > the mechanics are very different and fewer. Sounds
> to me that you are not
> > satisfied or happy with whatever you are learning
> or whomever your are
> > taking classes with.
>
>
> Oh I'm quite pleased with my instruction. But what
> model do you have for
> a teacher? Is a student always a student? I don't
> buy it. The aim of
> instruction is not to foster dependency but
> independence. Students
> should be inspired enough to start investigating on
> their own and then
> become responsible members of their community. No
> matter how good or
> patient my teachers are, pestering them with a ton
> of questions while I
> explore and get it straight in my own head is an
> enormous imposition on
> their good humor. It is better to tool around in a
> list like this and
> find like minded people who are exploring too and
> are more than happy to
> exchange notes and have animated discussions. Then I
> can ask the pointed
> questions as needed.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm

Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:41:14 EST
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

Interestingly, Amazon.com has Castro's videos for sale:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=stripbooks:relevance
-above&field-keywords=mauricio%2520castro&search-type=ss&bq=1&store-name=books
/ref=xs_ap_l_xgl14/002-4792800-2241660





In a message dated 11/3/2005 09:35:21 Pacific Standard Time,
patangos@YAHOO.COM writes:
Hi Jeff,

Welcome to Tango-L and a tango community that can be,
well, difficult, at times. I applaud your search for
material and questioning nature. We all learn
differently, and I suggest going with whatever works
for you. Like yourself, I preferred a cognitive
approach in a linear fashion when I first started. It
took me years to appreciate more abstract teaching
methods, but it happened when my brain was ready for
it.

As to your original question, Mauricio Castro has a
series of books on Tango: The Structure of the Dance.
I only have the first one. In the second half he
talks about tango theory, focusing on the combinations
of the open, front cross, and back cross steps. This
may be what you are looking for. The first half is
about basic patterns. He does not discuss
leading/following (though it has been a few years
since I have read it.)

I am too far away from my graduate school days when I
could get into a rather pedantic reading material like
Castro's book, but if it works for you, go for it!

Happy reading,
Trini de Pittsburgh






--- Jeff Gaynor <jjg@JQHOME.NET> wrote:

> This gets back to a question of learning. How did
> you learn tango? From
> your teachers? I suspect the answer is yes and no.
> Yes in that they
> taught you, but no in that you had to learn a lot of
> stuff for yourself.
> It was their guidance that allowed you to make all
> that hard work turn
> you into the person you are. If they did their job
> -- and I'm sure they
> did -- you now understand what the subject should
> be, not just the
> subject. World of difference there. Here is what I
> think on the topic of
> learning:
>
> https://jqhome.net/ma/common/intuition.html
>
> Now, that said, I find for me that it is best to
> learn one style very
> well of whatever to have a basis. From there it is
> much easier to keep
> straight what the differences are. In trying to be a
> good student, I
> understand the pitfall of just acquiring a ton of
> random technique and
> not being able to separate out basics from
> fundamentals from fun. (See
> my other post on fundamentals.)
>
> > There are many
> > ways to lead, follow and perform the tango dance.
> In close embrace
> > (apilado)
> > the mechanics are very different and fewer. Sounds
> to me that you are not
> > satisfied or happy with whatever you are learning
> or whomever your are
> > taking classes with.
>
>
> Oh I'm quite pleased with my instruction. But what
> model do you have for
> a teacher? Is a student always a student? I don't
> buy it. The aim of
> instruction is not to foster dependency but
> independence. Students
> should be inspired enough to start investigating on
> their own and then
> become responsible members of their community. No
> matter how good or
> patient my teachers are, pestering them with a ton
> of questions while I
> explore and get it straight in my own head is an
> enormous imposition on
> their good humor. It is better to tool around in a
> list like this and
> find like minded people who are exploring too and
> are more than happy to
> exchange notes and have animated discussions. Then I
> can ask the pointed
> questions as needed.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm

Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 18:49:51 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

Typical engineering approach to dance - I did
recognize the thought pattern. You are trying to
analyze art, and although you compiled
https://jqhome.net/ma/common/intuition.html, I have the
impression that you did not really assimilate the
borrowed ideas within.

Only the simplest aspects of Tango can be analyzed as
you propose: the steps, the figures. The other
aspects, which do belong to the realm of feelings and
which impart CHARACTER to the dance, can only be
described in literary terms.

There's a wise saying: Walk before you run. You give
us th example of the Ochos. But, if I may, do you know
how to walk the Tango walk? Many American dancers are
obsessed by Tango figures, and dismiss the walk. It
should be noted though that it takes many months for
an Argentine dancer to study the walk with a teacher
in order to become a professional dancer, and they
practice continually.

But even before walking the walk, do you care to
listen to classical tangos 2-3 hours a day?

Lucia


--- Jeff Gaynor <jjg@JQHOME.NET> escribis:

> A lot of instruction for us beginners tends to the
> mechanical and
> repetitive. This is excellent, of course, and needs
> to be there to
> develop the body sense to react. Most people are not
> used to thinking in
> term of principles of movement -- which are usually
> confusing to
> beginners and best left for later. I'm trying to
> isolate a few core
> principles of movement and see how they can
> percolate through the dance.
>
> Also, I'm sure that there are standard terms for
> many things in tango
> and I need to be able to understand these from a
> more precise technical
> angle before being able to coherently express myself
> generally. Getting
> terms nailed down plus a goodly listing of
> principles is my first task
> I've assigned myself. If there is a better way to go
> about it, do tell.
>
> Once I can grasp what the fundamental of the
> movements are, I have a
> much better chance of starting to improvise rather
> than plod.
>
> ==== An example follows, which might make sense.
> ====
>
> Back ochos -- what makes them tick in close embrace?
> The normal way they
> are taught to start is with a double step then
> moving the body offline a
> wee bit as you walk (all this is the man's
> perspective). There are two
> ways this could cause them either (careful here,
> vocabulary is from a
> lay perspective so I hope this makes sense)
>
> (1) my weight which is shifting counter to her step
> (e.g. I step to my
> left as she steps back with her left) or
>
> (2) the projection with my trailing side (e.g. I
> step left with my left
> and my right side is moving to my left front corner
> as she steps with
> her left foot).
>
> Could I do something like, say, do a cross step in
> front + pivot and
> repeat (so essentially do a front ocho to make her
> do a back ocho)?
> Could I do this with some sort of repeated step
> behind? If just a weight
> shift, both should work, if a projection only the
> first should work,
> since on the second the trailing side will be turned
> a bit a way from
> her. Not saying these are good ways to do a back
> ocho, just examples
> that help me understand it at a different level than
> footwork. As a
> newbie I also need to be advised since I can
> probably muscle it and make
> it work, but that would violate the style of the
> dance. Last thing I
> want is to play Highland Games with my partner, you
> know. :-)
>
> Er, does this help or am I just chatting myself up?
> Since this list has
> been around for some time, there has probably been a
> discussion
> someplace of this (still slogging through archives,
> but if you remember
> the thread name do tell).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
>
> > At 10:50 AM 11/2/2005, Jeff Gaynor wrote:
> >
> >> ...am trying to find ways to shore
> >> up my understanding from a higher perspective.
> >
> >
> > Jeff,
> > I was OK until the statement above.
> > I cannot imagine what you mean by "higher
> perspective".
> > Please explain it to me in simple terms.
> > If you cannot explain it, how will you know when
> you do receive that
> > "higher perspective"?
> >
> > Marty
> >
>

Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:25:00 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@JQHOME.NET>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

Lucia wrote:

>Typical engineering approach to dance - I did
>recognize the thought pattern.
>

Hmmm seems we are heading off in a wrong direction. There are three
major hobbies, as I call them, that are the origin of the article.
First, I started out as a musician. I went to school, got a degree and
was a professional for a while before deciding I really didn't like
poverty. :-) The second hobby of mine, is martial arts. I've been very
active for 26 years and run a school. I'm quite good and am known
nationally in certain circles, being considered a very good and
effective instructor. Both of these hobbies rank high intuitiveness,
much like dance. Finally since I am a Mathematician, I realized that
most instruction in Math tended to be deterministic. That is to say, a
lot of teachers assume you have "it" or don't, or they somehow assume
that their pupils should be able to deduce everything at a glance. The
best Mathematicians I know really are artists at the highest level. So
rather than being an "engineer" who tries to take an approach to dance,
I am actually and artist who is trying to get people in the hard
sciences to realize they are actually doing art as well. My Math
students, by the way, are considered excellent too.

>You are trying to
>analyze art, and although you compiled
>https://jqhome.net/ma/common/intuition.html, I have the
>impression that you did not really assimilate the
>borrowed ideas within.
>
>
>

Oh dear. I'll have to reflect on this comment....

>Only the simplest aspects of Tango can be analyzed as
>you propose: the steps, the figures. The other
>aspects, which do belong to the realm of feelings and
>which impart CHARACTER to the dance, can only be
>described in literary terms.
>
>
>

Sure. However, all of the great dances I've seen have the precision of a
drill sargeant and the discipline too. I'll bet you dance well and I'll
bet you have enviable control, right? How does one get technical
precision? My experience in other fields has been that people don't
always focus on it directly and this means it takes them a while to
realize how important it is. I just figured I'd start there, since I
know I'll need it. Students like me should assimilate basic technique
so they can do it automatically and then they can disengage concious
control, which is the first step to giving it the right character. (This
actually is a Zen Buddhist concept called mushin.)

>There's a wise saying: Walk before you run. You give
>us th example of the Ochos. But, if I may, do you know
>how to walk the Tango walk?
>

I'm trying. I gave the example I did simply because it happened to have
been fresh in my mind.

>Many American dancers are
>obsessed by Tango figures, and dismiss the walk. It
>should be noted though that it takes many months for
>an Argentine dancer to study the walk with a teacher
>in order to become a professional dancer, and they
>practice continually.
>
>
>

This is excellent information. I will practice walking more.

>But even before walking the walk, do you care to
>listen to classical tangos 2-3 hours a day?
>
>
>

I have been and really like it.

Cheers and Many Thanks,

Jeff

Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:40:13 -0800
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

Jeff, with your background in jujitsu, I'm surprised you didn't take my
original comment to heart. Combine it with Lucia's, and you have your
answer: all your questions will be answered by listening to the music
and "walking your miles at the milonga," not by analyzing written
treatises, or digging through the TANGO-L archives. Your "technical
precision" will come through experience, just like it did in jujitsu.

Although I will give you one hint - you know how to take control of
someone's center on the mat, right? Use that skill to move your
partner's center on the dance floor.

When I was studying Filipino arnis, I didn't learn to dodge a rattan
stick coming at my face at 100+ mph by reading about it. And on many
levels, Argentine tango is far more difficult than most budo, although
not quite as dangerous (depending on the floorcraft at the milongas you
frequent). ;-)

Michael
Tango Bellingham

Jeff Gaynor wrote:

> Sure. However, all of the great dances I've seen have the precision of a
> drill sargeant and the discipline too. I'll bet you dance well and I'll
> bet you have enviable control, right? How does one get technical
> precision? My experience in other fields has been that people don't
> always focus on it directly and this means it takes them a while to
> realize how important it is. I just figured I'd start there, since I
> know I'll need it. Students like me should assimilate basic technique
> so they can do it automatically and then they can disengage concious
> control, which is the first step to giving it the right character. (This
> actually is a Zen Buddhist concept called mushin.)
>

Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:51:02 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

Quite frankly, I don't understand why people seem to
be so judgemental about a new tango dancer who wants
to read about tango. What's the big deal? Let him
read. He is already taking lessons. He is (I hope)
dancing. He is just adding a different way of
learning.

No wonder some can think of tango people as
standoffish. Aren't we supposed to be encouraging
people?

Geez.

Trini de Pittsburgh


PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm




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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 17:31:15 -0800
From: "George W. Bush" <bailartangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

think, think, think
i wish there was someway to remove the pretension & "scene" aspect
out of tango. hmmmm... more friendly, like zydeco/cajun dances...
i'll put karl to work on it...
shrub


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Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 03:25:16 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

I agree with Trini's remonstrance, I was
unnecessarily edgy.

Regarding Jeff's comment on dancing precision: I do
not agree with his remark. The best social Tango
dancers have a relaxed, smooth and elegant quality,
achieved after many years of much dancing.

Lucia
--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
escribis:

> Quite frankly, I don't understand why people seem to
> be so judgemental about a new tango dancer who wants
> to read about tango. What's the big deal? Let him
> read. He is already taking lessons. He is (I hope)
> dancing. He is just adding a different way of
> learning.
>
> No wonder some can think of tango people as
> standoffish. Aren't we supposed to be encouraging
> people?
>
> Geez.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in
> one click.
>

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 04:44:54 +0100
From: Fulano de tal <campanero@SHINYFEET.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

What does W want? What pretension & scene is he talking about? Argentine
tango is a fun and pleasant activity. The people are friendly and nice.
Actually, the people are friendly and nice in lots of other dance scenes
as well. It's just that one needs to get to know the people. It takes
time, a little effort and a modicum of social skills to break into any
sort of group and A/T is no different. There is no need to get "Karl" or
"scooter" or anyone else working on it. Just go out there, join classes,
meet people, go to milongas and Voila! you are part of the scene. Oh yeah,
in tango as in any other dance, the better dancers are of course, more
popular. Actually, in tango it's more important to be a good dancer than
young or good looking. I bet in Zideco/Cajun looks are more important
since the dance is much simpler and more people can be "good dancers".




George W. Bush said:

> think, think, think
> i wish there was someway to remove the pretension & "scene" aspect
> out of tango. hmmmm... more friendly, like zydeco/cajun dances...
> i'll put karl to work on it...
> shrub
>
>
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>

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Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 16:11:32 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

> Quite frankly, I don't understand why people seem to
> be so judgemental about a new tango dancer who wants
> to read about tango. What's the big deal? Let him
> read.

Agreed. In fact, I think, many people on this list read about a lot of time.
Otherwise, they would not subscribe to this list, right? Maybe Jeff just
wants a more compact, efficient approach by getting recommendations for a
good book rather than sifting through all this mail, trying to find some
useful information...? I wonder why so many of the listeros jump on the
wagon to bash this newcomer on the list?

Astrid

Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:31:44 -0800
From: "George W. Bush" <bailartangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - reading list

Just got done talking to Karl. Looks like Scooter leaked the "scene/pretension"
info. Most dancers are quite friendly & sociable, a nice community of folks.
.
Scooter is going to the slammer for that obstruction.



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