110  No Subject

ARTICLE INDEX


Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:32:31 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: No Subject

I must apologize to many of the participants on the
Tango-L list, because I receive the list in the
condensed format. The reason that I receive the
list in the condensed format is because I also
maintain an activities list in the San Francisco
Bay Area and get several updates daily for that
list. To see the fruits of my labor, please look at
the web site batango.com and push the button for
activities list. As you can see, if you look, we are
not a "one milonga town" and this takes some work.
The beauty of this work is that I just got a call from
an "out of town" female tango dancer who was here
for a seminar and wanted to thank me for pursuing
to tell her where the milongas were. I told her that
my happiness was when a tango dancer landed at the
airport, and had 15 minutes to get to the milonga.
That is when I feel the best, when I can get them to
the milonga in 15 minutes from landing at the airport.
Although I do this on behalf of the Bay Area Argentine
Tango Association, there are some people who are
not members, but I still have the information for the
non-members and I give that information to the people
also.
Because I have so much traffic regarding updates to
the list, while I want very much to be a part of the
Tango-L "fighting repoire," I must continue to receive
the list in the condensed format. So, I will always be
the fool, but I still want to be involved.
And, Mark, catch me if you can, Big Boy!
Deborah
San Francisco, California, USA




Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:16:44 EDT
From: Sherrie Pallotta <SherPal@AOL.COM>
Subject: (no subject)

To all the people in the world expressing regrets about the tragedy in the
US, i say thank you. It is a wonderful thing to be linked to the world
through the dance of tango which bridges all our humanity and binds us to one
another across cultures, distances, intellects and philosophies. If all
people could share the tender embrace of the tango, the trusting hold of a
man for his partner, the deep, passionate and sensuous strains of the music
and lyrics, if all people could experience that heart connection that we all
know through the dance of Argentina, then perhaps the whole world would be a
sweeter place where no one would or could take up the arms of terror and
destruction against another human being. I think we can all be glad that
tango has softened us and made us more loving, tender, compassionate and
embracing people. I thank tango and Argentina for that. Sherrie, USA

By the way, I am coming to BSAS on Friday, sept 14, where does Pichi's
discussion group meet and on what days? thank you in advance.




Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:31:38 +1200
From: Melroy Roddie <MelroyR@ADHB.GOVT.NZ>
Subject: <No subject given>

I would like to send my deepest sympathies to all those in America in the
wake of the terrible attacks on your country,
and indeed the free world.
The whole world is in shock.
Everyone I come in contact here is very upset.
Deepest Sympathy ,
Mel .... New Zealand.




Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 00:53:17 -0700
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hi list,
A while ago I came across some mp3's that really impressed me.
They were songs performed by the orchestra of Anibal Troilo, but they
had a lush, passionate feel that I would normally attribute to pugliese.
Underneath this they had the solid beat and complex rhthyms that I would
expect from Troilo. The quality of the sound was also very impressive.
I've found too many CD's of Troilo's music where the recordings were
severely distorted and scratchy.
The songs that I found were danzarin, los mareados and la bordona.
I was wondering if anyone knew what CD might contain these tracks, or
other songs that were like them. I was impressed to find that Troilo
could also craft passionate, slower music.
Thanks,
--
Clayton Beach
akumushi@onebox.com






Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 03:36:35 -0700
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Dear List,
Well, this started out as a simple response, and kept on growing. I
spend entirely too much time philosophizing about this dance. Please
try to read it through, and hopefully it will make sense at the end.
These are the musings that keep me from doing school work. Anyway,
enjoy:

I think everyone has experienced tango plateaus:
You start to think that you're really getting good, that you've got it
all under control, and you don't have a whole lot of room for improvement.
You're getting really comfortable with your dance and start getting
cocky, then WHAM!
Now you can't do anything right, you suck at dancing, your feet don't
work, everything s horrible.
Bit by bit you start to see things differently, get more comfortable,
then you start to think that you're really good...
Does this cycle sound familiar?
It's happened a hundred times since I started, and will have happened
a million by the time I die.
Anyway, my latest epiphany, and something I been focusing on has some
bearing on the topic of centering the follow.
First, we must keep in mind that the woman should have an autonomous
sense of her own balance. She should be capable of almost everything
on her own. This is accomplished by practicing alone, and with dancing
a lot. If a follow wants to get real good, she should dance with good
leads, but she should also dance with the really shitty ones. Show me
a follow that can keep her balance and look dignified with a horrible
lead and I ll be the happiest man alive.
I the woman works hard she can gain a true sense of balance. Hopefully,
the lead will do his job and she won t need it too much, but the best
offense is a good defense.
For a follow that has mastered her own body, the mechanics of the dance
follow a simple set of rules
The tango only consists of side, back and forward steps, which can be
further simplified to open (side) steps, cross (forward/back) steps
and pivots. If the woman can keep her balance during open and cross
steps as well as pivots, then she will be able to follow anything a man
LEADS WELL.
So, how does the man lead well?
He must first realize that everything is open, side, or rotation. If
a man thinks in anything more than two, at most three steps at a time,
he has left his partner and is dancing alone, in his head.
For me, the most important thing is the woman's body and her comfort.
All of my attention should be given to her. The music is the blood
through my veins, it s something that has so permeated my existence that
I cannot imagine life without it. I cannot stress the importance of
listening to LOTS of the music. It is something that both the lead and
the follow should not even be thinking about, just like they re not focusing
on (breath in breath out, breath in, breath out) Maybe it s why people
seem to think that only Argentines can really feel the tango. They are
exposed to it form birth, whether their parents dance or not, it is part
of their common heritage. Just as some Americans don t particularly
like jazz, there it is part of our cultural heritage.
Anyway, the music should be not even be an issue. A good follow becomes
an extension of my own body, and I can feel exactly where she is. I
can be aware of every muscle in her body and when I move, she follows.
There is a portion of my brain dedicated to moving limbs that are not
even a part of my body. This is why it takes a little more than a couple
of dances to really be able to dance well with someone, and why people
in relationships dance so well together. Just like your first bumbling
romantic encounters, you must learn your partner s body before you can
dance well. Every woman has particular strengths and weaknesses, and
it s up to the man to support her where she is weak, and provide her
with opportunity s to show off her strengths. This takes time, and forging
ties with the dancers in your community is an important step in improving.

There is an intimate bond between the lead and the follow, and it is
something so beautiful that to bring any sexual or egotistical feelings
into it is to defile its purity. Sure the tango is sensual, but it is
far more sophisticated than a mating ritual. In my opinion, it is
the most beautiful part of humanity. The lead and follow are the most
pure forms of human communication, and the tango is an incredible amalgamation
the arts: music, poetry, and movement.
The lead must respect his partner s body, and she must be willing to
trust him with it. In order to lead, the man must position his body
around her axis to invite her into the next movement. Here s an example
of how this applies to the dance:
To keep the woman's balance during (rotational) boleos, the man cannot
move her side to side (away from her axis). These movements are entirely
rotational energy. The boleo occurs by changing the direction of rotation
precisly when her body has reached it's limit. Remember when you played
with a yo-yo? It goes down, and if you change its direction at the right
point, the yo-yo returns. That is the "sweet spot" discussed earlier.
The lead must be able to feel the tension in her body, and use it to
create the snap. It s like a rat s tail with a wet towel. It takes
very little force to make it sting. The speed and timing of the move
are the critical parts. Line boleos are the same, only he is pushing
her off her axis. Using up energy, he prevents her from stepping, if
he changes direction right before she loses balance, then boom; you've
got a line boleo. These movements are examples of how the man must respect
the woman's center, and be able to feel the energy in her body. Follower's
feel clumsy or unskilled when unskilled leads take them off of their
axis. The key to leading is for the lead to position his body such that
the movement that he is intending to lead is the only movement that she
can without compromising her balance. If leads can manage this, and
follows know their bodys well enough to ALWAYS maintain their balance,
then tango nirvana is reached.
Just like electricity, a good follow will follow the path of least resistance.
If the lead respects her axis, and she is comfortable, then a follow
will reach this "nirvana" or "tango trance." It is when she can finally
relax, feel comfortable without trying to second guess what the lead
wants, that a follow can clear her mind a just FOLLOW.
If she does not have her balance, (if the lead is pushing or pulling
her over) then she will have to be conscious of what the lead s trying
to do. She will start anticipating n order to avoid discomfort.
As a beginning (an extremly inexperienced) follow, I know that I can't
follow anything too complicated. It's because I haven't developed my
"following balance." The balance that a follow must have and that required
of a lead are completely different worlds. We leads don't have to worry
about some menace trying to contort our bodies, stepping on our feet
and kicking our shins. The best thing for a man to do about his balance
is to start following. It's sink or swim!
More than ever, I'm realizing that the dance is composed only of the
three elements I spoke of earlier(open, cross, rotation). The complexity
arises in how the two partner's bodies are related in space. "Moves"
get their unique look from the combination of how the partners are stepping,
the timing of these steps, the amount of torque(rotation) in their torsoes,
and the orientation of their bodies(side to side, facing, side to front
et cetera).
If a move isn't working, if one partner is off balance, then one of these
elements is out of sync. The reason why we should go to lessons and
intend workshops is not patterns. It is to gain the knowledge of what
relationship, what combination of the fundamentals is needed for the
move to succeed. This is why we hear about the triangles, L's, circles
and all of the other geometric interpretations teachers use. They are
ways that a teacher attempts to explain the necessary elements of a whole
family of moves. If you can do one sacada well, one boleo well, one
gancho well, and you have been taught the mechanics and elements necessary
for all of these moves, then there is no reason that you can't take some
time to goof around and find all of the other ganchos, sacadas and boleos.
Working in the mirror image of a patterns you know will double your
repertoire. Double it again by doing all of your moves completely reversed!
(imagine a tape of yourself dancing being rewound). Want to double
it again? Try leading your moves only switching the roles. If you start
to dissect the dance like that, then you ll start to realize that things
that you thought were different patterns are actually just the mirror
image or the reverse of a pattern you ve already been taught. This is
how people who can really improvise well can do it. Limit yourself from
the confines of what you ve been taught. Get together with friends and
practice, throw topics at each other and goof around.
Workshops and classes are for technique, getting pointers on how your
body is interfering with the dance, getting stylistic tips, and being
shown the fundamental elements of the dance. Good instructors know this,
and they may use particular patterns or "moves to give an example of
an entire family of related concepts. If all you get from a class is
a couple of patterns that you ll forget in a month and that aren t even
fit for social dancing, then you ve wasted your money. Two instructors
that I've had the opportunity to study with that take this approach are
Metin Yazir and Fabian Salas. Both are great guys, with an awesome understanding
of the human body as well as the mechanics of the dance. Every minute
with these guys is valuable. There are other instructors that I go to
purely for the artistic and interpretive side of the dance. Leandro
Palou and Andrea Misse are a couple that teaches together. If they EVER
come to your town, you owe it to yourself to check them out.
Time for discovering moves, and finding variations is the practica.
Intermediate dancers are wasting their time and money when the lessons
ignore the "fundamentals" and focus on patterns. You can t do these
moves until you really understand how to use your body.
You want the most valuable time with a travelling instructor? Take the
"fundamentals" Class. No follow cares how many moves you know if you
can't make her WALK comfortably.
At any rate, these are my current musings about the dance. Thanks to
everyone that actually read it all the way through!!!
Get out there and enjoy yourselves.
Sincerely,
Clayton Beach,
San Diego CA
Akumushi@onebox.com


--
Clayton Beach
akumushi@onebox.com






Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:59:31 -1000
From: Ingrid Peterson <georgous1@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Dear Tango People,

I have a favor to ask all of you. . . One of my friends (female) has
recently decided to be brave enough to try to learn how to lead. As a woman
who also leads and follows, I support her whole-heartedly but she has
encountered some unfortunate events which has made her drive to do so
falter.

I ask all of you to answer some questions.

I want to know what other women think about fellow women learning to lead. .
. and if they find it strange to dance with women who lead. . . god knows
I`ve definatly encountered such an issue. Remember, we need to help
eachother and fuel the passion that is known as Argentine Tango!! I call on
women all around the world, if you find yourself in a position where another
woman asks you to dance, be willing and helpful and dance with her.

MEN. . . I reckon there are going to be a wide divide between those of you
who are old school and think that women should not lead at all and those who
think nothing of it. I ask those who disagree with such a thing to be
patient- maybe there is something you can learn from these women. . . those
who do agree, ask these women to lead YOU around the dance floor!!

I have encountered enough to know that everyone is entitled to their
opinion, but that should not include shutting people out because they are
trying even HARDER to learn more about such a wonderful dance. I have to
say, knowing how to lead and to follow has helped my following technique
quite a bit. . . also, I find I can help leads to better their technique and
they can do the same for me. PLEASE know that we are just trying to learn
and that ostrasizing us will not help the situation.

Those of you who read this (men), and think that I have lost my mind, I
welcome you into my craziness. I welcome any thoughts on this topic and
welcome emails where I have to defend myself on this topic. Bring it on!!

Ingrid.





Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:33:47 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Astrid,
If you call being considerate & polite to someone you don't, I'd advice
consulting a dictionary & finding a better word for what you're trying to
articulate. The new women I dance with are comfortable with the information
phrased that way & so am I.

I don't attach any meaning or significance to either close or open embrace.
I dance because I love to & to have fun. If someone is dancing to impress
other people, that sounds more like narcissism, something a sometimes
pretentious dance like Tango doesn't need.

Cheers,
Bugs Bunny
Portland, OR





Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:53:02 -0800
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Alberto says:

>It is very obvious that you have not been to a real milonga, like ina
>milonga in Buenos Aires, where those who bump (read don't know how >todance)
>get their ass kicked out of the room, along with those who refer to
>dancers
>as "leads" and think a milonga is a playground. :-)

Hmmmm, could someone not be accustomed to a thing called... "humor"?
And since when have the only "real" milongas existed in Buenos Aires?
That kind of thinking is the same BS that promotes stereotypes like 'only
Portenos can feel the music', or 'only portenos can dance real tango.'
As for people getting there ass kicked for bumping another person...
People get shot for cutting people off in traffic. Does this make it
an intelligent or socially acceptable course of action? In any Porteno
attitudes should be left in the dust of progress, the visions of compradritos,
knife fights and violence are included.
It would be nice if for once men could leave some of their testosterone
at home. Dancing well should be enough to avoid most dancers, and kicking
their ass won't prove anything more than your stupdity.
--
clayton beach
akumushi@onebox.com - email
(866) 248-7670 x7206 - voicemail/fax



---- tangoman@planet-tango.com wrote:

> >We could go the Galager route:
> >a) Every one recieves a plastic dart gun upon paying the cover
> >b) We all get a bunch of darts labelled "stupid"
> >c) When bumped, simply shoot that lead with the "stupid" dart
> >d) Finally, anyone exceeding their alloted three bumps, signified
> by
> >the darts that they wear, is asked to sit down for a few songs or
> leave
> >to altogether.
> >;)
> >--
> >clayton beach
>
> It is very obvious that you have not been to a real milonga, like in
> a
> milonga in Buenos Aires, where those who bump (read don't know how
> to dance)
> get their ass kicked out of the room, along with those who refer to
> dancers
> as "leads" and think a milonga is a playground. :-)
>
> Alberto
>
>
>






Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:02:41 +0200
From: syuna <syuna@TURK.NET>
Subject: <No subject given>

Dear Janis,

I agree with many points you have mentioned in your mail except one,
the one about Geraldine.

I know that Geraldine is performing stage tango and I watched her few
times but I know that she is also a very good social dancer and she
has been dancing in the milongas for many years. Actually she started
her tango as a social dancer when she was very very young together
with her ballet education. In december I saw her many times in many
milongas and had the chance to see that she is a beloved social
dancer.

Best wishes
MELIN from Istanbul




Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:07:00 +0200
From: H D Haberstroh <HDHaberstroh@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: <No subject given>

I intend to finish my degree in psychology with a work about argentine tango. It is hard to find special research literature. Does anybody know =
about essays and themes that joined psychology, argentine tango, motion, emotion?

Helga




Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:19:40 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

--- H D Haberstroh <HDHaberstroh@T-ONLINE.DE> wrote:

> I intend to finish my degree in psychology with a
> work about argentine tango. It is hard to find
> special research literature. Does anybody know about
> essays and themes that joined psychology, argentine
> tango, motion, emotion?

Anthropologist Julie Taylor wrote an excellent book
called "Paper Tangos". Does that help?

Jai






Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 16:00:29 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Helga:
The New York Tango Festival (www.nyctango.com) presents Oscar Gillespie. His speech is entitled is "Psychology and Tango." If you look at their web page, you might find a telephone number for him.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC


---------- H D Haberstroh <HDHaberstroh@T-ONLINE.DE> writes:

I intend to finish my degree in psychology with a work about argentine tango. It is hard to find special research literature. Does anybody know about essays and themes that joined psychology, argentine tango, motion, emotion?

Helga



I'd rather be dancing argentine tango




Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:25:55 -0700
From: Ilona Koren-Deutsch <ilonakd@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

--- Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> --- H D Haberstroh <HDHaberstroh@T-ONLINE.DE> wrote:
> > I intend to finish my degree in psychology with a
> > work about argentine tango. It is hard to find
> > special research literature. Does anybody know about
> > essays and themes that joined psychology, argentine
> > tango, motion, emotion?
>
> Anthropologist Julie Taylor wrote an excellent book
> called "Paper Tangos". Does that help?

Off the top of my head:

_Tango and the Political Economy of Passion (Institutional
Structures of Feeling)_ Marta E. Savigliano. 1995: Westview
Press.

_Masculinities: Football, Polo and the Tango in Argentina
(Global Issues)_ Eduardo P. Archetti. 1999. Berg Pub Ltd.

_Tango!: The Dance, the Song, the Story_ Simon Collier, ed.
1997. Thames & Hudson.

_Tango passion du corps et de l'esprit_ Nardo Zalko. Milan eds.
(I think this is the book I'm thinking of.)

_Tango nomade: itudes sur le tango transculturel_ Pierre Monette
et Ramon Pelinski. Triptyque.

But as an (ex) academic, I have to ask: Have you tried a
library? An internet search? I found the complete references for
each of the titles I remembered simply by poking around on the
net.

-Ilona











Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:24:59 +0000
From: Daisy Gardiner <tawny_port@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Sorry for the poor formatting. I'm posting this again.

As a woman, I can only speak from observation, not from first-hand
experience.

It seems to me that classes with a focus on solid technique, with just
enough "steps" to insure a sense of immediate success on the dance floor
might be a useful approach once you've got the guys in the room. North
Americans tend not to be into delayed gratification, so it's important for
dancers to feel early-on like the dance can be mastered and that learning it
will be fun. That's where the ladies come in. If we think of ourselves as
"dance dummies" as some women put it, in attendance just so men have someone
to practice with, then we don't convey the joy of the dance. I think that
women can help keep the beginner men there by being encouraging and even
enthusiastic.

And, there are advantages to dancing with beginners:
1. They don't usually have fat heads filled with the conceit and delusions
of intermediate dancers who think they're advanced.
2. They're grateful that you're dancing with them.
3. In a class or practice, they often welcome feedback.
4. They may develop into fabulous tangueros who will remember you and
always offer you dances when they see you.
5. They may turn out to be great people that you want to talk to as well as
dance with.

So let's give these guys a break. I don't know of anyone who was born
dancing tango well. It takes work; it takes time; it may take the
encouragement of partners.

As for getting the guys there in the first place, let's ask those places
that seem to have been more successful than most: Portland, Denver and
Montreal come to mind. Lots of good male dancers. What's different about
their approach that makes it more successful? Is it related to the tango
community as a whole or to individual teachers? Let's hear from you.

Daisy







Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 21:12:47 +0000
From: Brian Taylor <briantaylor990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

My experience in Buenos Aires was as follows.
The first night I went to a milonga, I was mesmerized by the beautiful
ladies, the music and the couples dancing.
I followed the ritual of staring but they avoided establishing eye contact
as soon as they notice me. I was somewhat frustrated but I really enjoyed
the energy of that place and the opportunity to be there. I left by 4 AM
without dancing one little tango.
The following day I took a lesson and I went to a practica.
I discussed my experience the night before. "They have to see you dancing
first" somebody told me. "Come with us tonight".
I joined them, two Argentinean men. They introduced me to a couple of ladies
that accepted to dance with me. After that it was downhill.
I almost fainted when I stared and a beautiful pair of dark eyes responded
with a stare and a nod. I danced all night and kept dancing in dreams once
back at the hotel.
I returned to the same place and tried new milongas but always with somebody
that I had met before during a lesson or a practica to be certain I could
dance to be seen at the floor.
I had a great time!






Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:12:38 -0400
From: Nicole Dowell <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

--- On Thu 10/10, Jonathan Thornton wrote:
"Technique is to be practised until it can be forgotten in the
dance. Like playing scales and fingering exercises it's necessary but it's
not the song. The song can be heard in the heart and danced from the heart.
The head has done its job in the hours, weeks, years of
preparation. It now needs to give way to the heart and allow it to dance
the feeling truth in the music."


I like how you put that Jonathon. It's so true. There are people out
there that are good dancers, and those that are good technicians, but the
ones who can use the technique to train their bodies to move to what their
hearts and souls feel, are the best dancers. (same can be said for
musicians, singers and artists)

I've been dancing since I could walk, but when I first started my
professional training in technique (as a competitive dancer)... I forgot
how to dance. I remember training at the studio hours every day, and then
I went out one night after my first couple weeks of intense training, and I
couldn't dance. My feet, my body, nothing moved right. I was thinking too
much.

Technique is definately useful and I do believe its how any artist (singer, dancer, musician, etc) can excel in their art, but it's not something you can think about
after the music starts. Technique should be practiced as an exercise over
and over and over and over until your body just knows what it's supposed to
do, without you worrying about it. Then when the music starts...just let
your body move. Forget all the technique because it won't tell you how to
dance. Only your heart and soul as it listens to the music will tell you
that. You train your body with technique just to make the message your heart and soul is trying to give as clear as possible.

Nicole
Miami







Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:48:00 -0400
From: Boris Boriss <bie@RCN.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello. I am writing with regards to finding good instructors in Buenos Aires
for an intermediate level tango dancer. I will be visiting Buenos Aires in a
few months and am interested in taking some lessons. Could anyone recommend
some good male instructors? I am an intermediate level tango dancer.Also,
could someone please let me know where I can go for Milongas while in Buenos
Aires?
I will be in Argentina during the later part of Dec into Jan. Thanks again.
Boris




Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:15:11 -0800
From: none none <data20032002@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hi, I'll be visiting Buenos Aires over New Years. Can somone recommend some place special to spend New Years? Are there any special tango shows or anything like that for the holiday? How much money does it cost? Any suggestions is highly appreciated.

I have been studying tango for a couple of years and am an intermediate dancer.

Thank you,

D







Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:07:27 -0800
From: none none <data20032002@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hi

I will be in Buenos Aires in Late December till the middle of January. I was wondering if someone could tell me where some I can go for Milongas. I will be with a group of 8-10. We are an older crowd mostly. Intermediate/advanced dancers.



For a private lesson, does anyone know how much I will have to spend? can someone recommend some place where I can go for this. Are their tango academies? with reputable teachers?



Can someone recommend a place for us to spend New Years? Are there special tango shows for the new year?



Thanks

D







Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:49:45 -0500
From: Vicky Ellinson WWW.QUATEAMS.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello,

I will be in Miami Dec. 26th - Jan. 1st. Can anyone recommend me which
milongas I should attend ? Is there anything on New Years Eve ?

thank you,

Victoria (Washington DC)




Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:10:06 -0800
From: tanguero <tanguero@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: <No subject given>

please disregard article i just sent





Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:04:33 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM>
Subject: No Subject

Greetings:

Huck wrote:

"What makes club-style tango club-style is not sharing an axis at the
sternum, but rather a strict adherence to the rhythm of the music as opposed
to using
pauses. A club-style dancer steps on every single beat or half beat while
dancing to a typical D'Arienzo."

Since when was pausing, in any style of tango, either for musical reasons or
for giving the follower time to express herself, considered a separate type?
I might pause as much to D'Arienzo as I do to others sometimes for lots of
different reasons. So no matter which tango I dance, if I pause at all, I'm
doing another type of tango? I hear too many complaints from women about men
who never pause or rest to give them space, not to mention lack of musicality
which is probably a by-product of that same impatience anyway.
It seems everyone wants to create sub-categories for the sake of hiding their
own confusion about styles of tango.

Perhaps if dancers with only two or three years of dancing under their belts
weren't going around doing "workshops" proclaiming a certain type of tango
there might be a little less confusion about this. They are inviting and
creating this kind of confusion themselves and should realize their
contribution to it. The real problem is a lack of humility about their
knowledge.

One of the foremost reasons for the confusion also stems from people who
constantly change teachers and do every workshop they can find looking for
some magic wand to open the door of tango. Their reference point changes so
much they actually are blurring the distinctions between the styles and never
seem to master any, usually at the expense of overall technique as well.

Here in New York now we have factions that dress up and others who never
dress up, just sneakers and jeans and t-shirts are fine even on Sat night. I
guess it just a matter of time before there is a tango style for casual
dressers. Maybe "Skechers style"? "Wrangler style"?

Beware who you study with, even if they are Argentine and even if they write
a lot about tango.

In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

Cheers,
Charles Roques




Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:12:07 -0800
From: milonguero in NY <nymilonguero@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

All my responses were off topic. I am not saying ANY of the following:

1) You will dance on a wet surface. The milonga would be done on a regular dance floor in a regular building.

2) That the only kind of sexy clothing is flesh exposing. Yes, clothing can be sexy without exposing flesh, but so what? I am discussing a concept intended to draw in men and reduce the number of women. "Bathing Suit Milonga" is an easy to understand concept that is in no way intended to mean that only nudity is sexy. Note I do not even care if all the woman show up fully clothed and pay full price $20.

3) Danger of accidental exposure. Swimming is an athletic endevour. Yes, certain flashy swim suits might risk accidental exposure, but I am POSITIVE that they sell women's bathing suits to the general public that will not risk this no matter how fast the dance is. You do not have to wear a tiny-weenie itsy-bitsy thong bikini, you can go for the modest one piece bathing suit designed for competitive swim racing.








Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:32:47 +0000
From: jhon santana <newtotango@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

I"m NEW, used to be Tango Voz
My new screen name is NEW
You are welcome Maritza









Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:42:57 -0300
From: compadron cstillo <compadron@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Assassination Tango :Can we call a spade a spade?

The film Assassination Tango is an embarrassing disappointment, not
only to the Tango community, but to the film-going public. The scenario is
incoherent, the dialogue lacks polish and the words are mumbled. Duvall is
constantly trying to prove he can still sow his oats: whether he's kicking a
telephone booth to death, playing tough guy around boxers, or a
particularly pathetic scene is with a prostitute, where we hear the
call-girl scream :"incredible!". Rare to find a film nowadays where the
main character has to talk to himself so that the spectators can figure out
what's going on. His squeeze Luciana Pedraza can neither act nor dance.
The Argentine actors are credible, but their dialogue and gestures are
simply "boludo"! As for bringing tango dance into the heartland of North
America and Europe, forget it. We do get a glimpse of Jorge Dispari
teaching Duvall's girlfriend the basic step for twenty
seconds, and another teacher (whom I don't recognize) having her do doing
ridiculous flicks with her admittably long legs. If you're savy you can pick
out some of Buneos Aires' finest dancers, but they
don't dance in the film. Duvall's finale with Pedraza is a testatment to
HIS stamina and HIS love of the dance, but nothing to write home about. The
only valid, and in my opinion, best scene of the whole movie is literally
at the end of the film, when the credits run. There we Pablo Veron and
Geraldine Dispari dancing Tanturi Campos's Emotion. A wonderful, energetic
swatch of beauty. If only Duvall had put
more of Argentina's finest on screen. Old Tangeros often warn against
teaching one's lover to dance. It seems it even more perilous to teach one's
lover to act. The film may be a personal gift to his life-partner, but it is
a boring disservice to the tango community and a sad conclusion to
Robert Duvall's extraordinary film career.








Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:43:35 -0400
From: manuel <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

> Assassination Tango :Can we call a spade a spade?
>
> The film Assassination Tango is an embarrassing disappointment, not
> only to the Tango community, but to the film-going public.

Although the movie is not a cinematic masterpiece, I would hardly call it an
"embarrassing disappointment". I don't know if "we" can call it anything....
I liked the movie, I've seen many movies that were much worse. In my
estimation the vast majority of movies suck, but that's my opinion.
Obviously that's not an opinion shared by the vast majority of people since
they flock to the movies, rave about them and support them with their money.

I like tango, actually, I love tango. It was easy for me to enjoy and like
the movie because I could identify with the dance, the music, the locale and
the people in the movie. By the way, the acting by the non-professionals was
good enough for me to forget that they are tango-dance-personalities, so
obviously that wasn't so bad. The plot was no more incredible than 99% of
any other movie plot and the character played by Duvall was rather
believable and well developed. Sure he's gonna kick phone booths and act
like that tough guy, he's after all playing the part of a killer.

was the movie a must see, movie masterpiece? I don't think so... Was it an
"embarrassing disappointment"? I don't agree with that either. To me it was
enjoyable for several reasons and some other folks might actually like it
even without the tango "hook". Would I send people to see it? Sure,
particularly if they are tango afficionados.

Manuel




Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:28:32 +0100
From: Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

<that want to take the Argentine out of Argentine tango by playing music that
would never be heard at a milonga in BA>

Surely this is a matter of personal taste? There is some tango music which I find dreary, some which I find inspiring and some that grows on =
me with time. But once in a while I like to Tango to Tom Waits or Eva Cassidy or Paul Tingen or Led Zeppelin or Frank Zappa or Saint Colombe =
or Stravinsky or someone I never heard of.
Variety is the spice of life as they say.

(yes people do think I have bizarre taste in music)

Guy




Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:31:42 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

----Original Message Follows----



Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 04:05:10 EDT
From: "Laurie Moseley (at home)" <LGMoseley@AOL.COM>
Subject: (no subject)

I'm baffled as to why the dreaded back step is so dreaded and vilified. I
agree that done in a formulaic way it is boring, and done in an unintelligent way
(without checking to see if there is space behind you) it is impolite and
occasionally dangerous. In my view, the problem arises when it is taught as part
of a fixed sequence (like the D8CB). It is not a problem when it is taught as
a normal part of navigation. A reasonable starting point for most beginners is
to teach it as one of the many ways of manoeuvring round corners.

If one goes straight back, it is likely to be formulaic and impolite. If,
however, you view it as a preparation for changing your line of dance, that is
another matter. As you are, for example, walking into a corner, you have plenty
of time to check the space around you. Then, if you wish to change direction,
say 90 degrees to your left, you can use the back step (el retroceso) by
stepping back and at the same time turning your shoulders to face the intended new
line of dance. Your feet should follow, with an automatic swivel on the right
foot into the intended direction, and then the left foot can step sideways
left into a Salida - and off you go.

Thought about this way, the back step is neither an abomination nor a
delightful move - it is just a step, and I understand it best by thinking of it as a
preparation for what comes next - usually some walking, but it can be anything
which starts with left foot step. Anyway, stepping back is a normal part of
so many moves that it is hardly worth thinking of it as a separate element -
except when you are analysing problems.

Laurie




Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:12:28 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: (no subject)

>I'm baffled as to why the dreaded back step is so dreaded and vilified. I
>agree that done in a formulaic way it is boring, and done in an
>unintelligent way
>(without checking to see if there is space behind you) it is impolite and
>occasionally dangerous. In my view, the problem arises when it is
>taught as part
>of a fixed sequence (like the D8CB). It is not a problem when it is taught as
>a normal part of navigation. A reasonable starting point for most beginners is
>to teach it as one of the many ways of manoeuvring round corners.


Your examples of reasonable use of back steps are fine, but it is
interesting to contrast communities where the 8CB w/DBS is ingrained
vs those where it isn't. Can you challenge all the guys in your
community to do an entire tango without once stepping back, or doing
the resolution on 6-7-8?

The main problem is one of habituation and bad habits, not to mention
increased likelihood for collisions. There is also the issue of
whether we are learning a Stage or a Social tango.


(1) Habituation & Navigation.

Men arrive at their first tango lesson capable of navigating a
crowded room without colliding into anyone, and the FIRST thing they
are taught is how NOT to navigate. Why give them a step almost
guaranteed to cause a collision when they try to mix with more
experienced dancers?

The resolution and back step is habitual for probably 80-90% of tango
dancers, causing serious problems on crowded floors.


(2) Stage vs Social tango or a Mental Construct of "what it means to do tango".

The first 4-8 weeks instills a mental construct of how to tango, and
it is darned hard to rearrange it, especially for those of us outside
Buenos Aires who did not grow up with a cultural image of what tango
is "really like", or where our primary visuals are stage shows, or
huge empty ballrooms with only a few dozen dancers.

Some learning methodologies are designed for choreography and others
for improvisation. In my opinion breaking up an 8 count sequence is
much more difficult than assembling smaller elements. Your choice of
beginner instruction or curriculum creates a mental construct of
tango; the 8CB is only one of several such constructs...others might
include:

- "zig-zagging wildly around the middle of the room",
- "elegant walk of the woman around the line-of-dance",
- "rhythmic, syncopated tango on a crowded floor",
- "all steps are pieces of the turn that flow smoothly one into another".

If your foundation, your basic idea of tango, is built on smaller
elements of lead-follow, then you are more free to choose or adapt to
any of these other visions of tango.


>Thought about this way, the back step is neither an abomination nor a
>delightful move - it is just a step, and I understand it best by
>thinking of it as a
>preparation for what comes next - usually some walking, but it can be anything
>which starts with left foot step. Anyway, stepping back is a normal part of
>so many moves that it is hardly worth thinking of it as a separate element -
>except when you are analysing problems.
>
>Laurie


--

Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560





Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:18:43 -0400
From: Jacquet Jean-Pierre <jpjfilms@NOOS.FR>
Subject: <No subject given>

Let's mourn the sudden death, at the age of 64, of the
great Spanish writer, journalist, essayist, poet,
tango lover and cook Manolo Vazquez Montalban. He was
the author of 20 books in the Pepe Carvalho series,
the last of which, Milenio, is ready for publication.
A sad day for Spanish letters.
In his book "The Buenos Aires Quintet", which deals
with the aftermath of the military dictatorship, the
"kidnapped" children of opponents to the rigime,
etc..., Pepe Carvalho investigates in Buenos Aires and
encounters the real Adriana Varela, the sensational
(for my money and his) tango songstress.
Here's what Amazon has to say about this book:

When Pepe Carvalho's uncle asks him to find his son,
Raul, in Buenos Aires, Pepe is reluctant. All he knows
about Argentina is "tango, Maradona, and the
disappeared" and he has no desire to find out more.
But family is family and soon Carvalho is in Buenos
Aires, getting more caught up in Argentina's troubled
past than is good for anybody. Montalban's unique mix
of socialist politics, sexual intrigue and cultural
underworlds are given a new twist.
"The modern committed writer, Montalban exposes the
criminal power relationships beneath the facade of
democracy." -- Guardian

jean-pierre jacquet





Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:03:02 EST
From: Crrtango@AOL.COM
Subject: No Subject

Pardon the local nature of this post. Last Saturday night 11/29 at Danel and
Maria's Milonga in NYC an overcoat was mistakenly exchanged for an almost
identical one but important keys were in the pockets of the taken coat. If anyone
who attended the milonga knows about this or finds the keys, please contact
Pierre Dulaine Dance Club.
212-244-8400.

many thanks,
Charles Roques




Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:29:32 -0500
From: Rick McGarrey <RICKMCG@FLASH.NET>
Subject: <No subject given>

Music notes.

We bought seven new tango CDs from Mario Orlando
yesterday. Mario seems to be trying to establish a
tango DJ monopoly in BsAs. He currently works seven
different clubs- including, of all things, a Milonga
Gay at La Marshall. The times they are a changin .

I have so many tango CDs that it has come to the
point where I have probably bought duplicates of some
music half a dozen times just to get a few new songs-
but there is some good and interesting stuff on these
new CDs. It s surprising how different the same
piece can sound when played by different orchestras.
I first noticed it when I was unable to identify a
Hector Varela version of El Flete . There are many
examples, and some of them are very difficult to
recognize as the same piece of music. If you are a
DJ or you have a lot of music, it might be
interesting to compare them. And if you get a
chance, try to dance to each one and compare. This
gets right down to the core of tango music and tango
dancing. Maybe at a workshop instead of having
people walk around pretending to be mirrors of each
other, a comparison of the different versions and how
to dance differently to them would be a valuable use
of time. Here are a few with big differences:

Quejas de Bandoneon Troilo v. Biagi
A la Gran Muneca DiSarli v. Lomuto
Gallo Ciego Pugliese v. Tanturi
El Flete D Arienzo v. Varela
El Choclo DiSarli v. a bunch of others

In many cases the older driving dance rhythms are
punched up by more sophisticated modern musicians
( modern meaning the 1950s). For me this often
makes the music better for listening (in a way), but
it can also make the music more difficult to dance
to. Sometimes, however, it s not an improvement of
any kind. Hector Varela s 1952 Flete is pretty
weak. Did he really think he could improve on the
Maestro s 20-year-old version? If you have any
doubts that D Arienzo is the King of Rhythm, just
compare the two. On the other hand, DiSarli s
newer El Choclo works in every way. He fixed the
old song up and improved it tremendously, both for
listening, and for dancing. His version, (I believe
it s at the end of the RCA 100 Anos CD) where he
speaks about the emotion of tango, and then plays El
Choclo , is one of the greatest tango recordings of
all.

I had heard both Biagi s and Troilo s Quejas many
times, but the moods and cadences were so different
that for a long time I just didn t connect the two
melodies. Biagi s Quejas pulls you onto the
floor. For me, it contains a great range of tango
dance emotion, from hard driving rhythm, to smooth
string melodies, to moments of quiet introspection.
Troilo s version is better known, but it is difficult
to dance to. I mentioned this once to someone who
organizes milongas, and he said that s why
Troilo s Quejas is always used in a concours de
tango. (These are the dance competitions that are
sometimes held in the neighborhood clubs where the
winner may get a $20 or $30 prize.) They
play Quejas because it challenges the skills of the
dancers.




Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:05:35 +0100
From: "Hélène Eckert" <Helene.Eckert@ITU.INT>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello, everyone! I would like to have advice about classes for followers in
Ba As !!!
Thank you
Hélène from Geneva
www.almatango.com




Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:24:37 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Sarah la Roca wrote:

"How lucky we are that we our lives are so very
privledged, so very comfortable, that we find a
misdirected
posting on the tango-l a problem worth spending time
being angry about.

In a world where so many are homeless, so many are
sick, so many are illiterate and living in poverty,
living in slavery or surrounded by war and intolerance
and
without any hope of a decent life, how lucky we are,
our world wide community of tango dancers, that we
have
the leisure time, the money, and the freedom to dance
tango or to do anything at all.

Finding a simple announcement on the Tango L to be
such an huge problem and such a gross violation, I
would
say is an enormous privledge. So count yourself
blessed."

Another List subscriber wrote back to me about this
comment, privately:

"What was missing above was probably the Holocaust,
the
Gulags, the electric
chair, the Chinese tortures (by far more cruel and
more sadistic than those of
the Inquisition!), Schwartzeneger :))), ..." (I live
in CA as you know. :)

I can't top that, that's for sure!
Luda


=====






Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:15:13 -0400
From: Miamidances@AOL.COM
Subject: <No subject given>

I want to personally thank, whoever dreamed up TANGO-L, and started it. Ib m ashamed to say that Ib ve been involved with Argentine Tango for 12 years and Ib ve never been to BA.

The only reason Ive not made it to BA yet is circumstances. My trip that was planned was cancelled because of illness.

Ive been able to learn the dance from all the wonderful professors that travel to the USA. This list has been an invaluable learning tool about the culture, codes and conduct of the Argentine Tango in BA. Not to mention all the comedy with and without the flame wars. I still need to make my maiden voyage to BA, but I wish to thank everyone that has participated thru the years on Tango-L with all the great information about Tango.

What a great group of people and friends.

Tango Forever

Randy




Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:18:22 EDT
From: Crrtango@AOL.COM
Subject: (no subject)

Rose wrote:

"Jorge Nel once asked me
while we were listening to a tango, "do you know what
he is singing about?" and when I said no he told me
"you will never dance tango until you understand the
lyrics" I think that he is correct. "


Well, that's a nice notion but I wouldn't lose sleep over it or worry about
not totally grasping tango. Not to mention that it is a little condescending.
Knowing the lyrics definitely adds another dimension to it but I don't agree
that you will never master tango if you don't know them. In fact you might be
disappointed when you found out that some are pretty ordinary or even silly. Not
all are about romance or the intense tango connection between two people.
Some are pretty corny; others are profound; some are about your mother; some are
about your buddies hanging out on the street. Many have great lyrics like " A
Media Luz" or "Sonar Y Nada Mas" but not all of them by any means. Also
remember that many never had lyrics until after the fact since they were mostly
for dancing at first. "El Choclo" didn't have lyrics nor did "La Cumparsita"
until someone later added them. So that great song you heard may not have had any
words at all when it was originally composed and been a great song to dance
to so now that it has words, why should you have to know what they mean to
really feel it?

" I mean seriously do you keep
a little pad of paper around your neck and run over
and ask the dj after the song and then actually
remember what it was the next time you hear it? "


Not a notepad, but sometimes a paper napkin will do the trick ;-)
It takes time, just be patient.

Cheers,
Charles







Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:44:42 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: to understand or not to understand (was: Muscia, and no subject)

Rose wrote:

> "Jorge Nel once asked me
> while we were listening to a tango, "do you know what
> he is singing about?" and when I said no he told me
> "you will never dance tango until you understand the
> lyrics" I think that he is correct. "
>

Charles answered:

> Well, that's a nice notion but I wouldn't lose sleep over it or worry

about

> not totally grasping tango. In fact you might be
> disappointed when you found out that some are pretty ordinary or even

silly.

Well, Charles, here you sound almost as condescending as Raimund Allebrand,
that German author of the book "Tango-Nostalgie und Abschied", who, after
giving a fairly good description of tango history, tango culture, tango
musicians etc., and even providing a section with many tango lyrics and
German translations, can't stop himself from telling us, that, according to
his "psychoanalysis", all tango singers and poets have a mother complex,
allow themselves to be walked all over by some woman not worth their while,
and therefore are, in summary, wimps. So much for this German's idea of what
a real macho oughta be like...
My Argentine friend described it much better than that. He said:"The special
thing about tango songs is that they contain naked emotion."
To really get the idea, you would have to spend at least a year Spanish
first. But I would say, even if you can't understand the lyrics yourself, it
helps,if you often dance with someone who does.

Astrid's two cents





Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:43:55 -0700
From: Mary Menz & Fred Herman <hermenz@AINET.COM>
Subject: Re: (no subject)

>
>remember that many never had lyrics until after the fact since they
>were mostly
>for dancing at first. "El Choclo" didn't have lyrics nor did "La Cumparsita"
>until someone later added them.....
>Charles

So that explains why the lyrics to "El Choclo" are so dorky! - Mary


>
>





Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:26:01 -0600
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello dancers of Tango, Leads, Follows, Kidletts, Posters to the site,
Lurkers, Magickal elves and Inhabitants of the water caves.

Time for me to have a few words.
I am leaving this list for a bit.
Often I find many comments are handed with politeness and courtesy with out
much simple common respect behind it. There also seems to be a lack of
humor.
In short the Patina is not very pretty.

This is not true across the board but do see this at high percentage.
There is some really great information that pops into my mailbox from this
list about the music or the history. Great stuff that I am not an expert on
or will ever be. I dance, that is what I know and that is what I do among
other things (Whispering: it still does not mean I know everything about it
or mine is the only voice).

Several posters seem to be of the opinion that they are absolutely right
which I only have one word for..
Ass ....

I will raise my hand up as possibly being one of the most sarcastic posters
on this list. Always it is with the intent of respect and humor behind it. I
will not apologize for my postings but be cognizant of when I take a bad
step (Opps took another one).

I am also leaving because I want to attend to a couple of projects and have
a few other things that need my attention.
Have no fear (or be afraid.. I am not sure which), I will return at some
point to see if things have changed, to ask questions I may not know about
or to cast out some random aspersion of sarcasm (Hmm sounds like a themed
Tourets syndrome).

Some of you I will be seeing soon. I also hope to see more of you on the
dance floor as I am not leaving there any time soon.

Have lots of fun and revel in your lives.
David Hodgson.

PS: Guys if you do choose to wear lipstick.. Have a woman choose the color
for you..




Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:52:25 -0700
From: Alejandro Tosi <alejandro_tosi@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

does anybody know where to tango in rome these days??
thanks!!
alejandro









Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:05:41 +0200
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: <No subject given>

always check www.cyber-tango.com first:

reveils: http://www.tangoargentino.it/

christian



On 13 Sep 2004 at 11:52, Alejandro Tosi wrote:

> does anybody know where to tango in rome these days??
> thanks!!
> alejandro
>
>
>
>
>
>

christian@eTanguero.net
http://www.eTanguero.net/




Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:43:33 -0800
From: John Sims <jwsims@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: <No subject given>

Listos,

This information is B O G U S
Go here 1st.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_cell_phone_directory.htm

Tango On

At 09:15 AM 12/11/2004, you wrote:

>I know this has nothing to do with tango, but I feel many of you will thank
>me for this information.
>
>All cell phone numbers will be made public to
>telemarketing firms as of Jan 1 and your cell phone
>may start ringing off the hook with telemarketers.
>Unlike your home phone most folks pay for incoming
>calls. Have until Dec. 15th 2004 to get on the
>national "Do not call list" for cell phones. Need to
>call 1-888-382-1222 from the cell phone you wish to
>have put on the list. Can also do it online at
>www.donotcall.gov .





Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:27:20 -0500
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

I have been thinking of quitting my job, buying a dance studio someplace
where Tango is not sufficiently present and hiring tango teachers. Anyone
have any advice?

Do you know of a dance school that is for sale in a location that could use
an increased tango presence? Obviously I would have to leave Manhattan, as
we have a ton of really good dance schools that already give people more
than enough tango.


Is this a stupid idea - should I just start up a school instead of buying a
non-tango dance school and introducing them to tango?





Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:46:55 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: <No subject given>

I wouldn't call it stupid. Everybody has to be allowed to follow their dream. You mentioned Manhattan. Of the major studios (Dancesport, Dance =
Manhattan, Stepping Out, and Sandra Cameron), NONE are exclusively tango. So that's my first caution. Don't limit yourself to tango. I'd =
start with salsa and swing as they are very popular.

Be prepared for a drought (expenses [rent, electricity, advertising] before revenue [students] comes in) when you start. Expect to give free =
lessons and work long hours. If you take on staff, you have to pay them, even if there are no students.

Michael
Washington, DC
Pondering going to the Denver tango festival

----- Original Message -----
From: A Coleman
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L]


I have been thinking of quitting my job, buying a dance studio someplace
where Tango is not sufficiently present and hiring tango teachers. Anyone
have any advice?

Do you know of a dance school that is for sale in a location that could use
an increased tango presence? Obviously I would have to leave Manhattan, as
we have a ton of really good dance schools that already give people more
than enough tango.


Is this a stupid idea - should I just start up a school instead of buying a
non-tango dance school and introducing them to tango?





Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 03:04:04 -0500
From: Carlos Yannacanedo <jinx@THETANGOCOMPANY.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

My Peoples,

What’s good? My name is Carlos Yannacañedo (Yannacanedo the tilde doesn’t
come up on your cpu). I am a tango dancer and teacher in New York City. My
company is called (no less) THE TANGO COMPANY. So, now I’m here and I’m
ready to rock the TANGO-L scene. My website is www.thetangocompany.com
<http://www.thetangocompany.com/> See you in space!



TANGO TO THE PEOPLE, BABY



1 4 3,

Carlos Yannacañedo








Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 23:07:20 +0200
From: ann levy <levy.ann@WANADOO.FR>
Subject: <No subject given>

While in Buenos Aires, I simply adored dulce de leché ! Since I have
been back in Paris, I am unable to find the “same thing” in the stores.
Does anyone have a recipe for this that can be shared?
Thank you!
Ann






Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:10:34 -0500
From: Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

I too was a little put off by hearing of a tiered pricing to attending
milongas in BA. There also was a discussion recently here about giving
price breaks to masters or lowly instructors.

Then I remember here in Branson Missouri with over 100 shows produced
every year, local residents can get into shows that cost tourists
anywhere from $20 to $65 person for only $5. Some of the more popular
shows may not let you in for $5 but they do give a discount. Most
everyone living here is involved in the entertainment field in some way
or other and it is recognized that most of these people do not get much
above minimum wage. So this is the only way they would otherwise be
able to see the shows. It also does not cost the theaters anything to
let someone sit in an empty seat for $5.

My primary occupation is publisher of a regional magazine that covers
the Ozarks and as such I usually get into shows gratis with a media
pass. So I have always enjoyed these perks myself. But then the
entertainers would hope that the magazine would be favorable in our
reporting.

I would bet that the same practice happens in Vegas or other tourist
towns. Since the milongas in BA draw a lot of foreigners I can see how
and why the same practice may happen there.

Is it fair? Probably not but it is a perk for those that sacrifice in
monetary terms to be involved in or close to the tango in BA or
entertainment in Branson or in the tourist trade in other areas. It is
a fact of life.

But I can see both sides to this issue,
If I am a tourist I can be a little offended,
If I am a local I can appreciative that I get a break.

May your tango prosper,
Leonardo K.




Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:11:10 +0200
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: <No subject given>

On 11 Apr 2005 at 18:10, Leonardo Kunkayo wrote:

> Then I remember here in Branson Missouri with over 100 shows produced
> every year, local residents can get into shows that cost tourists
> anywhere from $20 to $65 person for only $5. Some of the more popular
> shows may not let you in for $5 but they do give a discount. Most
> everyone living here is involved in the entertainment field in some
> way or other and it is recognized that most of these people do not get
> much above minimum wage. So this is the only way they would otherwise
> be able to see the shows. It also does not cost the theaters anything
> to let someone sit in an empty seat for $5.

rigth point, wrong conclusion!!!

the organisors don't let the locals in for a nice price because they
are socially aware ...
... but
a/ to fillt he otherwise empty seats
b/ pretend that a show is good because 'even' locals are present ...

Christian


christian@eTanguero.net
http://www.eTanguero.net/




Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 19:33:32 -0400
From: David Koucky <davidkoucky@MSN.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Dear Friends of Tango and History,

As you may know, there is a small community of dancers who preserve the dances of the previous century. This includes the various dances that =
have been mentioned in previous messages. The history of dance is linked to the changes in the societies that developed the various =
dances. Tango is one of these.

The dances of 1850 seem to be largely of a European origin. These include the Waltz, Mazurka, Schottische, Redowa, Gallop, and the =
Quadrilles and round and Square formats of dancing. These were generally taught by itinerant dance instructors, who may or may not have =
paid much attention to their colleagues.

Of particular interest to Tango dancers are the influences of the New World. These include the breakdown in class and ethnic prejudices. =
This results in a mixing of musical traditions. It also means that white musicians could pay attention to African influences, admit to =
their interest, and begin including these influences. This interest opened the door for composers such as Scott Joplin and El Negro =
Casimiro. This is one reason that dances of this era will all have strong African influences.

An interesting tale here is the dance known as the Cake Walk. This dance seems to be the result of African American servants making fun of =
the way their employers put on airs. The white employers soon began making fun of the way the servants did this. This is a comical dance in =
which everyone was soon making fun of themselves. Whether they knew it or not.

This is of interest in considering the early days of Tango. Whether the compadritos meant well or not, they imported magic ingredients. Subtle =
games of rhythm followed these boys home. We are forever blessed. Long live our mix of cultures. Long live our Tango.

Regarding the Boston, I know this as a waltz variation. At the end of the 1800's our modern world began. People began to be too busy to =
perfect complicated steps. Instead of dancing a turning or rotary waltz step, simplification took place. The Boston is made up of rocking or =
hesitation type steps. The turns of the Viennese Waltz are replaced with moves that take little rotation. The music may be slower as well. =
The ladies are also wearing dresses with trains. This means that backing the lady is not possible.

It is possible that the publisher of Desde el Alma was merely appealing to the latest popular trend. Publishers of sheet music loved to =
repackage tunes to sell them in as many ways as possible.

I have also been told that the head snaps of the European Tango developed in the German competitions of the 1920's or 1930's. The =
supposition is that they are not related to the cortes and quebradas of an earlier time.

Now two questions:

When did the milongas of Buenos Aires begin to ban cortes and qubradas?

Is it safe to assume that the wealthy Argentines who introduced Tango to Paris would have had training in the proper dances of their time? This =
could be one reason for the departure of the various Tangos of that time.




Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 02:59:54 EDT
From: TangoLady@AOL.COM
Subject: (no subject)

"unsubscribe Tango-L Lydia Henson" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU




Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:35:05 -0500
From: andres amarilla <andresamarilla@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

I'm confuse.
if in the first world the toilets flush oder direction ,also the milonga ronda?
and in the equator they just dance in the place?is beter to dance
milongero there?
or is danerous because in 24 hs you can do the crazy trip of
3,14152926 times the earth diameter.
Exist the danger of a Tsunami in nuevo style practicas?
And what about light bulbs?


there are milongas in the polo?there ,fush the water? so they don't dance?
Here in BA there are people who spend more time in the bathroom that
in the dance flor ,is because they are looking in which direction do
the toilets flush ?
I'm really interest in all that is related about sience and tango.
please I want to know what hubble , keppler , Newton , Einstein ,and
the man in the chair said obout this subjet.

bye I need pi.

But please tell me in which direction do the toilets flush on the Equator?
Is this still a Tango related forum ?in which direction do the toilets flush
Or a toilet flush and light bulbs subjects one ?

I'm a little tired of all this bullshit ...

________________________________

De: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango em nome de John Gleeson
Enviada: sex 17/6/05 15:49
Para: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Assunto: Re: [TANGO-L] what do you mean when you say counter clockwise



Chas Gale asks:

> But please tell me in which direction do the toilets flush on the Equator?

If the earth was straight up on it's axis, they wouldn't flush at all, and it
would be a major problem for some good folks.
But since the earth is inclined 23o(degrees) off kilter, axis-wise, all
toilets either flush clock-wise or counter-clockwise depending on who
is making the phone call. Neat design, eh?

:<)




Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:30:20 EDT
From: Tangonata@AOL.COM
Subject: (no subject)

Is this how to post messages?




Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:48:16 -0500
From: Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hi Nina,

I see that you are going to be in my area teaching.
Do you remember our previous conversations?
Leonardo Kunkayo. I have teaching here and previously in Dallas for 6
years.
Been dancing tango for over 10 years.
I would like very much to meet with you while you are here.

Blessings,
Leonardo K.





Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:14:11 -0400
From: Richard Lipkin <rlipkin@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Craig Einhorn may be a wonderful musician but he can't spell.

The sheet music reads "Milongueo del ayer" as does the cd cover for Orquesta
El Arranque's Cabulero (check Tangostore.com <http://Tangostore.com> under
this cd to verify).
I have an LP someplace that also spells it that way.

Similarly, Sons de Cajilloines is Sons de Carrilhoes (Sounds of the
Carillons). It is a well-known brazilian choro.

Try googling "milongueo" and see what you get...

Richard


On 9/23/05, robin thomas <niborsamoht@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> i just got this from craig einhorn, i thought it might
> interest some of you ....
>
>
>
> I feel compelled to tell you more about Milonguea del
> Ayer. It is a
> composition of Abel Fleury, an Argentine guitarist who
> lived from
> 1903-1958. His compositions were based on the folk
> music of rural
> Argentina. Milonguea del Ayer is one of his most
> simple works but
> strikingly effective in a milonga/tango feel. I think
> it is the
> historic connection that people feel when they dance
> to this song.
> Regarding the funny spelling of milonga in the title,
> we will have to
> ask some Argentines.
>
> Other tunes on the CD which are fun to dance to are
> Grauna and Sons de
> Cajilloines.
>
> If any of your tango crowd wants to purchase Choros
> they can contact me
> through my web site, www.unicornguitar.com <http://www.unicornguitar.com>
>
> Actually here is a direct link to hear and/or purchase
> Choros:
> http://cdbaby.com/cd/einhorn4
>
> You can post any of this info on your e tango list.
> Thanks again.
>
> Craig
>
> Craig Einhorn, M.M.
> Classical Guitarist
> Unicorn Productions
> 541-485-4008
> einhorn@efn.org
> www.unicornguitar.com <http://www.unicornguitar.com>
>
>
>
>




Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:44:22 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: tango-l@mit.edu

"Sergio,

I am afraid that dictionary attacks helps the discussion go nowhere.

What about vigor in dance as an indicator of sexual fitness?
Add some dancing skills, some good looks, good music, and then we have
somethin' to talk about...

Lucia ;->

PS I like that French definition, which in translation sounds: vigor is a
quality that shows (of) life...

Lucia ;->"

Dear Lucia,
I never meant to attack anyone. Michael made a reference
to the dictionaries I used and I replied. I apologize if my note seemed to
be an attack on anything or anyone.

I am sorry to hear you do not talk unless it is about good looks, good
music, or good dancing skills.
Many people have a lot of fun talking about bad looks, poor music and
terrible dancing. :))

I do not know what you mean by ...the French definition....

Have a good day even if it is a Monday, Sergio







Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:08:02 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu

Sergio,

I apologize, the !dictionary attacks! I meant as a joke - forgetting that not everyone should know what this is -(and it is still Monday). A !dictionary attack! is method of applying words in succesion - dictionary is a good source- in order to guess simple logins and passwords. Hence the requirement to build complex passwords.

About the French definition - I just looked up the word vigueur (vigor) in the Canadian dictionary you pointed to, and that definition caught my fancy.

It seems that discussions on the net are far more interesting if someone's head is bashed-in, isn't it? On second thought, just like in our Media...
Maybe dancing Tango, elegantly, is an escape from the daily drudgery? A romantic throwback?

A very good day to you too

Lucia

Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> escribi?: "Sergio,

I am afraid that dictionary attacks helps the discussion go nowhere.

What about vigor in dance as an indicator of sexual fitness?
Add some dancing skills, some good looks, good music, and then we have
somethin' to talk about...

Lucia ;->

PS I like that French definition, which in translation sounds: vigor is a
quality that shows (of) life...

Lucia ;->"

Dear Lucia,
I never meant to attack anyone. Michael made a reference
to the dictionaries I used and I replied. I apologize if my note seemed to
be an attack on anything or anyone.

I am sorry to hear you do not talk unless it is about good looks, good
music, or good dancing skills.
Many people have a lot of fun talking about bad looks, poor music and
terrible dancing. :))

I do not know what you mean by ...the French definition....

Have a good day even if it is a Monday, Sergio

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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:31:35 -0500
From: "Elayne" <info@elaynesdance.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)

Can anyone give me insight on the show Tango Buenos Aires? Positive or
negative revues? What thoughts you might have about this company? How
does the show compare to Forever Tango or any other? Do you have
knowledge of the choreographer Lidia Segni and/or the music director,
Cristian Zarate. I think the new tour is called "The Four Seasons".

Thanks, elayne


Elayne's Dance - The Art of Social Dancing
www.elaynesdance.com
479.521.6683











Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 14:32:18 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)

ENDEMIC PROBLEM

I've recently noticed in several different venues, that the women
have not been living up to the skill level of the men. There may be
many explanations, but I think fundamentally, women learn quickly at
first, but have a much more difficult path going from Intermediate to
Advanced. Men learn slowly and steadily from the very beginning.







Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 08:41:38 -0400
From: joanneprochaska@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: stermitz@tango.org, tango-L@mit.edu

Dear Tom,
Your observation is thought-provoking.

I have been dancing tango since August of 2000. Since the first lesson that I attended, I never missed a Wednesday class, then added the Saturday class and milonga, then added the Monday Intermed. class, and I attended at least 6 workshops per year in Cleveland, along with going to other venues to dance the tango and to other cities for workshops and milongas.
I now teach the tango with my husband, Tim.
I still consider myself an intermediate. I know that I have far to go.
One well-known instructor from BsAs (a woman), told us that it takes 5 years to learn how to follow, and another 5 years to develop one's own style of following.
Perhaps many women do not realize the depth to which the art of "following" can reach.
Perhaps they are not challenged to go "deeper" as they develop their relationship with the tango.
Perhaps they do not have a female role model to let them know that they should not give up in the search to be "ligher", more musical and more connected.
Perhaps they do not realize that something can be learned from each lesson, from each workshop, from each instructor, from each dance, from each partner.
Have a great day dancing!
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio

-----Original Message-----



From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Sent: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 14:32:18 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)


ENDEMIC PROBLEM

I've recently noticed in several different venues, that the women
have not been living up to the skill level of the men. There may be
many explanations, but I think fundamentally, women learn quickly at
first, but have a much more difficult path going from Intermediate to
Advanced. Men learn slowly and steadily from the very beginning.


Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.





From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Sent: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 14:32:18 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)


ENDEMIC PROBLEM

I've recently noticed in several different venues, that the women
have not been living up to the skill level of the men. There may be
many explanations, but I think fundamentally, women learn quickly at
first, but have a much more difficult path going from Intermediate to
Advanced. Men learn slowly and steadily from the very beginning.


Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.







Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)


ENDEMIC PROBLEM

I've recently noticed in several different venues, that the women
have not been living up to the skill level of the men. There may be
many explanations, but I think fundamentally, women learn quickly at
first, but have a much more difficult path going from Intermediate to
Advanced. Men learn slowly and steadily from the very beginning.


Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and
IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.





Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 13:54:24 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)

My thoughts on this:

First, some teachers tell followers that tango is easy for followers - tango
is hard for leaders, but followers have little to do but accept the lead. Of
course, this is not true. Following well is hard.

Second, many teachers ignore the followers, except to teach them ochos, the
cross, and other footwork. The teacher demonstrates this with his partner or
assistant. Part of the problem is that many teachers don't know how to
follow. Followers get used to doing nothing in class.

There are many followers who stop taking lessons, but another problem is
followers who stop listening at lessons. I see followers who come to lessons
religiously, yet never fix the very basic problem that the teacher requests.
(I've been telling one follower the same one thing for three years - just
one thing. She still doesn't correct it) Also, at lessons with too many
women, many just sit when there isn't a man instead of working on their
stuff.

Occasionally my lessons have a majority of women, so I concentrate on
following. The women hate it. It's too hard!

Many followers blame the leader for poor dances. They expect the guy to give
them balance and poise, instead of finding it themselves. That's why they go
to BA, or to festivals, or to milongas and bug the best dancers until they
get a dance. Or they go to advanced lessons hoping to get a dance with the
teacher. Or they grouse about men who only will dance with young women, or
thin women. Well, guess what- young women and thin women are easier to hold
up. That's why it's great for followers to dance with beginning leaders.
They have to do their own work.

One other thing - tango is hard for followers who don't have core strength.
You have to get this first. Hmmm - exercise. No fun.

There's a guy in town that beginning and poor dancers love to dance with -
he throws them into place and they feel like their dancing. At some point
they don't want to dance with him anymore. That's when I know they're
getting it!

My breakthrough moment? The first time I took a lesson from a woman. I
thought I was doing OK - wow, did she set me straight!

Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN

>
> ENDEMIC PROBLEM
>
> I've recently noticed in several different venues, that the women
> have not been living up to the skill level of the men. There may be
> many explanations, but I think fundamentally, women learn quickly at
> first, but have a much more difficult path going from
> Intermediate to
> Advanced. Men learn slowly and steadily from the very beginning.
>







Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 03:47:46 -0400
From: "figen@tangoturk.com" <figen@tangoturk.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu

set TANGO-L mail

mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .








Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 00:00:25 -0500
From: Korey Ireland <korey@kodair.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Hello Michael, Igor, Neil, Janis, and others concerned about live
music for tango dancers:

Thank you for sharing your perspective, its important for all of us
to recognize there is a variety, different tastes, and that diversity
potentially makes us more robust as a community. I'm doing the math
in my head to work out the "contentment" ratio ...but at last nights
milonga in Seattle I believe there were about 200 people "happily"
dancing to live music by Conjunto Berretin, I won't claim they were
perfectly interpreting this energetic and playful ensemble, but they
weren't doing any worse to my eyes as a dance floor then when the DJ
played. In fact, the energy in the room was noticeably boosted when
the band played. Then there was the event last week in Mt. Vernon
where Tango Lorca with special guest Hector Del Curto played for a
room of enthusiastic dancers (apparently minus Michael and a few
others). Again, watching the room with the band playing and later
with the skilled Djing of Robin Thomas and Robert Hauk, I didn't feel
a big shift in quality of dance, maybe a small change in energy
level. Well, my point is just to give some voice in this forum to
the hundreds of dancers who do seem to enjoy dancing to these
groups. We hear from the few outspoken critics frequently, lets put
it in context. I count about 300 for and 5 against.

Not to dispute your claims, they are of course, your experiences, but
just to show another view, which in fact I believe to be a majority
perspective - live music is a delight to dance to! We are extremely
fortunate that musicians of the caliber of Tango Lorca, Conjunto
Berretin, and Trio Garufa (among others) chose to devote considerable
time to learning dance repertory and style. (and yes, I can assure
you, they do make a considerable effort to please us!) Quite the
contrary of sucking, or being too much work, I often find dancing to
live music a highlight of a festival weekend.

Perhaps there are others reading this who can corroborate?

These musicians are, by and large, warm, generous, accommodating,
people, who put uncompensated effort to play in a difficult and
subtle style that we will recognize as good dance music. This is a
style that developed from an economy that employed musicians 7 days a
week, 2 gigs a night, until we have such an economy I think its a
little unrealistic for us to expect the same musical conditions, and
if you want to improve the situation, hire more live music, give your
local band more practice, and perhaps some positive feedback. When
you criticize, blame, or vilify these musicians, you just make them
less likely to take an interest in our art form, which ultimately is
an impoverishment for all of us. Please, think carefully about the
human beings who are effected when you feel it necessary to flaunt
your superiority and criticize those who endeavor to inspire us to
dance. Your words have an impact on the musicians who can be
extremely discouraged by the intolerance of dancers, and for those of
us who dream of some day dancing to live music that is as good as, or
possibly better then the recordings we love to dance to. As I
understand it, dancers came back to tango in the late 30s and 40s
because a new musical style played by innovative musicians compelled
them to dance. I'm sure at the time, there were a handful of people
who said it was bad, the the status quo was better, change is scary
and wrong, I imagine we're all happy that no one was swayed by these
complaints.

Respectfully,
Korey Ireland






Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 23:44:17 -0600
From: "David" <dhodgson@tango777.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)

Nice email Korey;

Now I am not a musician (don't know how much energy it takes to put
something like that together). Nor am I am expert on music history or
technical structure. I am a dancer, I hear and interpret the music this way
(I do know how much time and energy it takes to do Tango).
When I dance, if I don't like something in an evening (not very often) I
state my point but also try to find something positive about it and keep it
as my opinion. If someone mentions something about the music I don't know
about, for the most part I want to hear what they have to say regardless of
my opinion. If I am not enjoying something like the music and everyone else
seems to be. Then most of the time the problem is mine.
An exception might be if I am talking with some argentines or someone who
also has sarcastic humor, I will say something nice then rip it to shreds.

I do say that I really appreciated your email Michael. I did not agree with
a lot of it. But it was a good opinion, it did not seem personal, you gave
some suggestions and you gave credit where credit was due. Very nice.






-----Original Message-----



Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:00 PM
To: Tango-L
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)

Hello Michael, Igor, Neil, Janis, and others concerned about live
music for tango dancers:

Thank you for sharing your perspective, its important for all of us
to recognize there is a variety, different tastes, and that diversity
potentially makes us more robust as a community. I'm doing the math
in my head to work out the "contentment" ratio ...but at last nights
milonga in Seattle I believe there were about 200 people "happily"
dancing to live music by Conjunto Berretin, I won't claim they were
perfectly interpreting this energetic and playful ensemble, but they
weren't doing any worse to my eyes as a dance floor then when the DJ
played. In fact, the energy in the room was noticeably boosted when
the band played. Then there was the event last week in Mt. Vernon
where Tango Lorca with special guest Hector Del Curto played for a
room of enthusiastic dancers (apparently minus Michael and a few
others). Again, watching the room with the band playing and later
with the skilled Djing of Robin Thomas and Robert Hauk, I didn't feel
a big shift in quality of dance, maybe a small change in energy
level. Well, my point is just to give some voice in this forum to
the hundreds of dancers who do seem to enjoy dancing to these
groups. We hear from the few outspoken critics frequently, lets put
it in context. I count about 300 for and 5 against.

Not to dispute your claims, they are of course, your experiences, but
just to show another view, which in fact I believe to be a majority
perspective - live music is a delight to dance to! We are extremely
fortunate that musicians of the caliber of Tango Lorca, Conjunto
Berretin, and Trio Garufa (among others) chose to devote considerable
time to learning dance repertory and style. (and yes, I can assure
you, they do make a considerable effort to please us!) Quite the
contrary of sucking, or being too much work, I often find dancing to
live music a highlight of a festival weekend.

Perhaps there are others reading this who can corroborate?

These musicians are, by and large, warm, generous, accommodating,
people, who put uncompensated effort to play in a difficult and
subtle style that we will recognize as good dance music. This is a
style that developed from an economy that employed musicians 7 days a
week, 2 gigs a night, until we have such an economy I think its a
little unrealistic for us to expect the same musical conditions, and
if you want to improve the situation, hire more live music, give your
local band more practice, and perhaps some positive feedback. When
you criticize, blame, or vilify these musicians, you just make them
less likely to take an interest in our art form, which ultimately is
an impoverishment for all of us. Please, think carefully about the
human beings who are effected when you feel it necessary to flaunt
your superiority and criticize those who endeavor to inspire us to
dance. Your words have an impact on the musicians who can be
extremely discouraged by the intolerance of dancers, and for those of
us who dream of some day dancing to live music that is as good as, or
possibly better then the recordings we love to dance to. As I
understand it, dancers came back to tango in the late 30s and 40s
because a new musical style played by innovative musicians compelled
them to dance. I'm sure at the time, there were a handful of people
who said it was bad, the the status quo was better, change is scary
and wrong, I imagine we're all happy that no one was swayed by these
complaints.

Respectfully,
Korey Ireland







Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:29 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Korey wrote:

> I'm doing the math in my head to work out the "contentment" ratio
> ... my point is just to give some voice in this forum to
> the hundreds of dancers who do seem to enjoy dancing to these
> groups. ... I count about 300 for and 5 against.

That's 300 who didn't state an opinion versus 5 who did? Your survey
technique does your case no favours, Korey.

If on the other hand we count the ayes who speak for themselves, we've
got about 2 for and 5 against. Which is pretty much Michael's original
point.

> just to show another view, which in fact I believe to be a majority
> perspective - live music is a delight to dance to! ...
> Perhaps there are others reading this who can corroborate?

Indeed lets hear from them. Preferably the dancers on the receiving end,
rather than organisers on the selling end.

> These musicians are, by and large, warm, generous, accommodating,
> people, who put uncompensated effort to play in a difficult and

Full marks for effort, but to be blunt, this issue is not about effort
but results. It makes no difference how hard the musicians try if the
end result is not good enough for dancers. And the fact you see a room
full of people dancing to a live band does not alone mean it is good
enough - people who've got to the effort to come out to a ball with live
music are going to make a big effort to enjoy it even if the band is not
as good as they'd reasonably expected.

> if you want to improve the situation, hire more live music, give your
> local band more practice,

Please no, do not inflict more bad live music on festivalgoers in the
hope that with practice the band will improve. Let them practice at home.

Lucia added:

> the ignorant and the uneducated "connoisseurs" carry the day.
> Without having the slightest idea of what good music and dance is,
> nor making the effort to learn, they endorse the "novelty" and the
> "sincere effort" of bad musicians

> here's one simple way to fight back - do not dance to music you
> don't like...

Well said.

And thank you again Michael for having the guts to call this spade a
spade.

Chris





-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* [Tango-L] (no subject)
*From:* Korey Ireland <korey@kodair.com>
*To:* Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
*Date:* Tue, 15 Aug 2006 00:00:25 -0500

Hello Michael, Igor, Neil, Janis, and others concerned about live
music for tango dancers:

Thank you for sharing your perspective, its important for all of us
to recognize there is a variety, different tastes, and that diversity
potentially makes us more robust as a community. I'm doing the math
in my head to work out the "contentment" ratio ...but at last nights
milonga in Seattle I believe there were about 200 people "happily"
dancing to live music by Conjunto Berretin, I won't claim they were
perfectly interpreting this energetic and playful ensemble, but they
weren't doing any worse to my eyes as a dance floor then when the DJ
played. In fact, the energy in the room was noticeably boosted when
the band played. Then there was the event last week in Mt. Vernon
where Tango Lorca with special guest Hector Del Curto played for a
room of enthusiastic dancers (apparently minus Michael and a few
others). Again, watching the room with the band playing and later
with the skilled Djing of Robin Thomas and Robert Hauk, I didn't feel
a big shift in quality of dance, maybe a small change in energy
level. Well, my point is just to give some voice in this forum to
the hundreds of dancers who do seem to enjoy dancing to these
groups. We hear from the few outspoken critics frequently, lets put
it in context. I count about 300 for and 5 against.

Not to dispute your claims, they are of course, your experiences, but
just to show another view, which in fact I believe to be a majority
perspective - live music is a delight to dance to! We are extremely
fortunate that musicians of the caliber of Tango Lorca, Conjunto
Berretin, and Trio Garufa (among others) chose to devote considerable
time to learning dance repertory and style. (and yes, I can assure
you, they do make a considerable effort to please us!) Quite the
contrary of sucking, or being too much work, I often find dancing to
live music a highlight of a festival weekend.

Perhaps there are others reading this who can corroborate?

These musicians are, by and large, warm, generous, accommodating,
people, who put uncompensated effort to play in a difficult and
subtle style that we will recognize as good dance music. This is a
style that developed from an economy that employed musicians 7 days a
week, 2 gigs a night, until we have such an economy I think its a
little unrealistic for us to expect the same musical conditions, and
if you want to improve the situation, hire more live music, give your
local band more practice, and perhaps some positive feedback. When
you criticize, blame, or vilify these musicians, you just make them
less likely to take an interest in our art form, which ultimately is
an impoverishment for all of us. Please, think carefully about the
human beings who are effected when you feel it necessary to flaunt
your superiority and criticize those who endeavor to inspire us to
dance. Your words have an impact on the musicians who can be
extremely discouraged by the intolerance of dancers, and for those of
us who dream of some day dancing to live music that is as good as, or
possibly better then the recordings we love to dance to. As I
understand it, dancers came back to tango in the late 30s and 40s
because a new musical style played by innovative musicians compelled
them to dance. I'm sure at the time, there were a handful of people
who said it was bad, the the status quo was better, change is scary
and wrong, I imagine we're all happy that no one was swayed by these
complaints.

Respectfully,
Korey Ireland







Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:47:16 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>

Korey,

...< missed section >...

We support you, as you can see, but please, support us, dear musicians !

Please, study the real tango music, admired by most dancers !!!

1920-1952. 17 great orchestras ( plus Castillo )
http://www.totango.net/best.html
Only 18! In only a month you can listen to about 3-4 hours of each! I would
prefer a year, thought.
And you have to love it!

You brought just one example. There are life music parties with very
successful atmosphere.
As well as many parties poorly DJ-ed. Many components contribute to success
besides the skills and repertoire of musicians.

It is not what we are talking about.

We are talking about QUALITY TANGO MUSIC, the way we would like it to be.

Want to play Modern? Play ! But after studying. Then you will play RIGHT,
and GREAT !
If you want to be a second Piazzolla, you should start not with him. But
with Canaro.

CANARO IS SIMPLE. BUT IT HAS A BEAT! If you are not good enough to
impersonate Piazzolla, DO NOT !!!!
Start with plain simple straight street rhythms of Canaro !
I can not believe that you can not do it.


Igor Polk.






Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:55:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "zhannochka ." <love2dancetango@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>


Korey and Guldan,
Thank you for speaking out on behalf of dancers who
love dancing to live music! Especially, when it comes
to dancing to Tango Lorca. I enjoy both "flying" to
Tango Lorca while dancing with a partner helping me do
that, and being "grounded" to Tango Lorca while
dancing with a partner who prefers an old-milonguerro
style.

I'm getting sick and tired of "semi so-called
professionals" that denounce this or that band
labeling their music "undanceable". No really, let
others decide for themselves! If you don't like
dancing to a live music band, sit out the set. The
band will take a break, and you will get your recorded
music. But do us all a favor, keep your mouth shut
while you are not dancing and let those on a dance
floor enjoy it.

Better yet, stay away with your negativity from the
festivals. No one, not the organizers, not musicians
and not even other dancers need to hear you b****ing
about not being able to "dance" to live music. Stay
at home with your records. Let both music and and
dance evolve and grow under patronage of
PROFFESSIONALS!

Another set of live music for me, please!

Zhanna

P.S. perhaps there should be more musicality workshops
taught by professional musicians to help dancers
figure out how to dance to tango music of today.

--- Korey Ireland <korey@kodair.com> wrote:

> Hello Michael, Igor, Neil, Janis, and others
> concerned about live
> music for tango dancers:
>
> Thank you for sharing your perspective, its
> important for all of us
> to recognize there is a variety, different tastes,
> and that diversity
> potentially makes us more robust as a community.
> I'm doing the math
> in my head to work out the "contentment" ratio
> ...but at last nights
> milonga in Seattle I believe there were about 200
> people "happily"
> dancing to live music by Conjunto Berretin, I won't
> claim they were
> perfectly interpreting this energetic and playful
> ensemble, but they
> weren't doing any worse to my eyes as a dance floor
> then when the DJ
> played. In fact, the energy in the room was
> noticeably boosted when
> the band played. Then there was the event last week
> in Mt. Vernon
> where Tango Lorca with special guest Hector Del
> Curto played for a
> room of enthusiastic dancers (apparently minus
> Michael and a few
> others). Again, watching the room with the band
> playing and later
> with the skilled Djing of Robin Thomas and Robert
> Hauk, I didn't feel
> a big shift in quality of dance, maybe a small
> change in energy
> level. Well, my point is just to give some voice in
> this forum to
> the hundreds of dancers who do seem to enjoy dancing
> to these
> groups. We hear from the few outspoken critics
> frequently, lets put
> it in context. I count about 300 for and 5 against.
>
> Not to dispute your claims, they are of course, your
> experiences, but
> just to show another view, which in fact I believe
> to be a majority
> perspective - live music is a delight to dance to!
> We are extremely
> fortunate that musicians of the caliber of Tango
> Lorca, Conjunto
> Berretin, and Trio Garufa (among others) chose to
> devote considerable
> time to learning dance repertory and style. (and
> yes, I can assure
> you, they do make a considerable effort to please
> us!) Quite the
> contrary of sucking, or being too much work, I often
> find dancing to
> live music a highlight of a festival weekend.
>
> Perhaps there are others reading this who can
> corroborate?
>
> These musicians are, by and large, warm, generous,
> accommodating,
> people, who put uncompensated effort to play in a
> difficult and
> subtle style that we will recognize as good dance
> music. This is a
> style that developed from an economy that employed
> musicians 7 days a
> week, 2 gigs a night, until we have such an economy
> I think its a
> little unrealistic for us to expect the same musical
> conditions, and
> if you want to improve the situation, hire more live
> music, give your
> local band more practice, and perhaps some positive
> feedback. When
> you criticize, blame, or vilify these musicians, you
> just make them
> less likely to take an interest in our art form,
> which ultimately is
> an impoverishment for all of us. Please, think
> carefully about the
> human beings who are effected when you feel it
> necessary to flaunt
> your superiority and criticize those who endeavor to
> inspire us to
> dance. Your words have an impact on the musicians
> who can be
> extremely discouraged by the intolerance of dancers,
> and for those of
> us who dream of some day dancing to live music that
> is as good as, or
> possibly better then the recordings we love to dance
> to. As I
> understand it, dancers came back to tango in the
> late 30s and 40s
> because a new musical style played by innovative
> musicians compelled
> them to dance. I'm sure at the time, there were a
> handful of people
> who said it was bad, the the status quo was better,
> change is scary
> and wrong, I imagine we're all happy that no one was
> swayed by these
> complaints.
>
> Respectfully,
> Korey Ireland
>
>







Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 00:17:56 -0400
From: "Bryan Yeung" <bryeung@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)
<daa32f830608152117j6ecc669axf3e105f5602fdd76@mail.gmail.com>

> > just to show another view, which in fact I believe to be a majority
> > perspective - live music is a delight to dance to! ...
> > Perhaps there are others reading this who can corroborate?
>
> Indeed lets hear from them. Preferably the dancers on the receiving end,
> rather than organisers on the selling end.

With a statement like this I can't help but chime in: yes, I have
danced to live music in the US that I thoroughly enjoyed (it was
Conjunto Berretin). Why? Because the floor was very crowded, I was
still somewhat a beginner and so was my partner and the music gave us
a lot of little things to listen to and play with. I'm not sure I
have ever smiled so much at a milonga.

Bryan

P.S.--Thanks Korey and others, for speaking up and encouraging me to
let my opinion out.





Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:02:11 -0300
From: Robin Tara <rtara@maine.rr.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] <no subject>

I was able to withdraw 300 pesos yesterday using a banelco


Best regards,

Robin

Tara Design, Inc.
www.taratangoshoes.com
Toll Free in US: 1-877-906-8272

18 Stillman St.
So. Portland ME 04106
207-741-2992--









Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 19:49:47 -0700
From: <sdugan1123@charter.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)


please unsubscribe SDugan1123@charter.net




Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:38:34 EST
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] No Subject

Dan wrote;

>>>>>>? ?? I a sense of absurdity overwhelms me regarding the? 'Truth &

Truthiness'
dialogue that has caught so much attention of late.? I've been dancing tango
for nearly 10? years and a subscriber to Tango-L? for about the same time and
have yet to see such inane, pedantic, nit picking,? and ultimately pointless
raving as displayed in the recent postings! It may just? be a sign of the
times. "Before a civilization is attacked from the outside? it crumbles from
within".? Tango is the music, the dance and the? communication between two
people, y
nada mas. Remove your intellect a bit? from the stage and allow you heart,
body and spirit to guide you and you'll have? less problems, dance better and
fewer negative thoughts. Be a little more in the? moment. Enjoy life. Don't
take
things for granted. <<<<<<<<<<<

Absurdity is right. An interesting advantage to living in New York is that
often tangueros from around the country will visit here to dance so I will get
to put a face to the writings, opinions, and tango philosopies. It is always a
surprise to see how people dance in relation to what they espouse on the L
list. Usually the most vociferous and opinionated, especially the most "creative"
thinkers who talk about a lot of unrelated semantical, alternative theories
and such, tend to be the worst dancers, with very few exceptions. These are
often the same ones who don't seem to do well in Buenos Aires either. The
intellect has never made anyone a good dancer (and has deluded many into thinking
that they are good dancers), but has constantly reared its head over the years
in posts like the silly thruthiness musings.
Cheers,
Charles


Check out AOL's list of 2007's
hottest products.

(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)





Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:15:23 -0300 (ART)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics

Dear Charles:

Without statistics, all you say is crap. And with statistics it would be even more crap. As about intellect, your utterrances are foolish, to put it mildly.

Lucia

Crrtango@aol.com escribi?:
often tangueros from around the country will visit here to dance so I will get
to put a face to the writings, opinions, and tango philosopies. It is always a
surprise to see how people dance in relation to what they espouse on the L
list. Usually the most vociferous and opinionated, especially the most "creative"
thinkers who talk about a lot of unrelated semantical, alternative theories
and such, tend to be the worst dancers, with very few exceptions. These are
often the same ones who don't seem to do well in Buenos Aires either. The
intellect has never made anyone a good dancer (and has deluded many into thinking
that they are good dancers), but has constantly reared its head over the years
in posts like the silly thruthiness musings.






Compart? video en la ventana de tus mensajes y tambi?n tus fotos de Flickr.
Us?el Nuevo Yahoo! Messenger versi?n Beta.




Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:49:06 -0500 (EST)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
To: Tango-l@mit.edu

Last night, I said it seemed 90% of the people who have been killing
Tango-L are men.

A representative of the other 10% just declared herself with her post with
this title.

She can't understand my anger. Of course not. Look what she writes and how
she adds to the discourse.

Charles, she just gave you a badge of honour. She won't be able to
understand why I thought your comments interesting.

The hateful have been driving away all the people who should be here.

Sharukh - please.








Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:20:22 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
To: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>, <crrtango@aol.com>,
<tango-l@mit.edu>


I don't understand Lucia. How can you label Charles' post as crap? It is is personal observation and nothing more or less. He has every right to post his thoughts and not have them labeled as "crap", specially when they are clearly no such thing..... Charles, for what it's worth, I agree with you and I have observed the phenomena you describe. And by the way, I really appreciate your kindness and hospitality when we've met in NYC and your pleasant visits to Atlanta in years past.

Cheers,

Manuel

visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com

> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:15:23 -0300
> From: curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
>
> Dear Charles:
>
> Without statistics, all you say is crap. And with statistics it would be even more crap. As about intellect, your utterrances are foolish, to put it mildly.
>
> Lucia
>
> Crrtango@aol.com escribi?:
> often tangueros from around the country will visit here to dance so I will get
> to put a face to the writings, opinions, and tango philosopies. It is always a
> surprise to see how people dance in relation to what they espouse on the L
> list. snip...





Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:46:59 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA02566439ED@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>



I don't think you can generalise too much. There is definitely an intellectual element to tango. Just compare it, for a moment, with a dance like salsa, which is much more about getting down and dirty (that can be fun too ;-)). Also, compare something like swing which, from what I can observe, is much more about learning spectacular acrobatic sequences.

The intellectual element is important, but I would agree it is only one element in good tango. If you watch a series of performances it is often the ones that are done with affection, tenderness and playfulness, as opposed to pure complexity and inventiveness (the intellectual part), that are the most beautiful to watch. So in my opinion you need both aspects to be a good dancer and a big helping of kindness.

I read an interview with Gavito somewhere where he said something like, 'I don't want to be the one who does the most steps but the one who gives more'. So for me good dancing starts with generosity and I agree with what Keith Elshaw says about the need for this quality on Tango-L. I would also agree that if posts lack generosity it would tend to support the view that the posters are probably not going to be great dancers. These would be the same people who start telling their leader/follower what to do in the middle of a dance and how they are not marking/following some sequence step correctly or start loudly complaining about their partner's lack of connection. In that case, they simply don't deserve dances, or any response to posts either.

Victor Bennetts

>>Dear Charles:

>> Without statistics, all you say is crap. And with statistics it >>would be even more crap. As about intellect, your utterrances are >>foolish, to put it mildly.

>> Lucia

>Crrtango@aol.com escribi?:
>often tangueros from around the country will visit here to dance so I >will get
>to put a face to the writings, opinions, and tango philosopies. It is >always a
>surprise to see how people dance in relation to what they espouse on >the L
>list. Usually the most vociferous and opinionated, especially the >most "creative"
>thinkers who talk about a lot of unrelated semantical, alternative >theories
>and such, tend to be the worst dancers, with very few exceptions. >These are
>often the same ones who don't seem to do well in Buenos Aires either. >The
>intellect has never made anyone a good dancer (and has deluded many >into thinking
>that they are good dancers), but has constantly reared its head over >the years
>in posts like the silly thruthiness musings.

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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:57:35 -0700
From: <doug@swingfusion.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics

I am dancer 12 years but only beginning Tango dancer (1 year). I am not
great Tango dancer. Although I read Tango-L list, I don't contribute to
list. It does not feel safe to do so. Maybe I write a lot. Maybe good
ideas, maybe not. I go to New York, or BsAs, or somewhere. My dancing
sucks. Everything I write is discount and all ideas bad. Maybe in 5 or 10
years when I dance good, or maybe not good but good enough, I can write to
Tango-L. You think?



D.






Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:59:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] No Subject from Doug
To: Tango-l@mit.edu
<60392.65.93.192.239.1196373543.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>

> I can write to Tango-L. You think?


If you do, I'm sure it would please a lot of people - although I can only
speak for myself. It's really interesting and informative to get a glimpse
or sense of actual people who are around and what things interest them.

You know, you'll see that there can be a great room and a great sound
system and all that - but if there are no people there, no one wants to
go. They will show up at a not-so-nice place and have a great time if
there are people there. People make the tango world go-round, as we all
discover for ourselves. Or, miss the most important thing!

ke







Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:45:49 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics

Doug,

I think you should write NOW.
When you become a good dancer, you might loose the earge to write
alltogether. And, by the way, I would probably know what you are going to
write about.

So write it now !
It is most interesting and useful for everyone.
You do not have to be shy, - just mention your experience.

Tango is not just for thouse who "dance well", it is for everyone.

Igor Polk







Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:29:33 -0700
From: dwyliu@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
<30ad4e030711291629p1201c80v403066c63cde453a@mail.gmail.com>

Doug,

I agree with Igor. Now is when you also have the most to benefit. We've
been in the game for a while, and the truth is that most of us probably
don't care what others think and aren't interested in arguing about minor
details of technique.

But, as a beginner coming into argentine tango, there probably a freshness
to your questions that is appealing, and our responses might actually mean
something - they may actually help!

Do not be discouraged.

Very Best,
David


On 11/29/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:

>
> Doug,
>
> I think you should write NOW.
> When you become a good dancer, you might loose the earge to write
> alltogether. And, by the way, I would probably know what you are going to
> write about.
>
> So write it now !
> It is most interesting and useful for everyone.
> You do not have to be shy, - just mention your experience.
>
> Tango is not just for thouse who "dance well", it is for everyone.
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
>





Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:25:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Doug <doug@swingfusion.com> writes:

>
> I am dancer 12 years but only beginning Tango dancer (1 year).

What, a whole year and you haven't started a blog or hung out
a teaching shingle yet?

Huck, already resignedly heading for the Tango-L woodshed





Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:49:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
To: tango-l@mit.edu

David Liu writes:

> But, as a beginner coming into argentine tango, there probably
> a freshness to your questions that is appealing,

I agree with David, humble childlike (relatively
speaking, with respect to tango) questions are appealing,
and most welcome.

On the other hand, presumptuous one-year-experience
judgments about the tango, such as, "I've only been dancing
a year, but I think the cabaceo is stupid!" or, "Who gives
a hoot about strict Argentine floorcraft rules and other
silly outdated codigos, this is not Buenos Aires!" are not.

Tango newbies should imitate a sponge seeking to soak
up knowledge about what tango *is*, rather than presume to
lecture us all about what, in their esteemed one-year opinion,
tango *should* be.

Huck





Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:58:40 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Shut up, Huck !

Doug does not look like one judging something he does not know about.

And I would say, Doug's experience with other dances and comparison with
Tango, what he feels like coming into community are most welcome !

Igor Polk
Huck, inflammatory answers, please, write to me personally. I know what to
do with them !







Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:45:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Igor writes:

> Shut up, Huck !

[Wow, at first I thought this was humorous sarcasm,
but then upon reading further discovered, much to my
dismay, that he was actually serious!]

> Doug does not look like one judging something he does not know about.

?!? I didn't say he was. I was merely agreeing
with David about what is welcome from newbies, and
offering by contrast examples from tango-l's long and
storied past of some things that were not.

> And I would say, Doug's experience with other dances

What are you going on about? My posting had nothing
to *do* with Doug. How could it? He's posted all of one
small innocuous paragraph here.

> Igor Polk
> Huck, inflammatory answers, please, write to me personally
> I know what to do with them !

That sounds wonderful Igor! Please feel free to
continue to flog me all you like publicly, and I'll
dutifully confine any replies to private email.

Huck





Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:01:15 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643A03@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>



Doug, posting to a newsgroup (or any kind of writing for an audience) is a bit like having a first dance with someone you don't know. It is not a safe activity. You are putting a bit of yourself out there and some people will like it and others might hate it. They may even squash it. But to be a good tango leader you need to be willing to take a risk and maybe get hurt. That is exactly what happened to me on my first night in BsAs when (after three years of dancing in Australia) an experienced follower walked off the floor in the middle of a dance with me at a well known Milonga. So at that stage I could have dug a hole and buried my dancing shoes in it, but instead it gave me the determination to do every class I could and go to a Milonga every night. Ultimately, the hard work and persistence paid off and in my second week I was having great dances with very experienced portena followers at well known Milongas and once I got back home to Australia a few people I respect ver!
y much told me they were amazed at how my dancing had transformed for the better in such a short period of time.

You don't have to post to this list to become a good leader, but the more people who post and contribute their experiences and knowledge and ask questions, the better a resource the list will be. Every experienced leader has been where you are right now at some point and I am sure the more a leader is prepared to risk and be challenged, the faster they will improve.

Victor Bennetts

Doug> I don't contribute to list. It does not feel safe to do so.

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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:16:31 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics

Doug,

I agree with everybody, we love to hear from newbies on Tango-L. Just a
little advice:

1. You can learn a lot about Tango from Tango-L - except how to dance it.
Doug, never, ever make the mistake of assuming that the people who write so
eloquently about Tango can actually dance it.

2. Never, ever disagree or question what these 'experts' write. They really
don't like it. Then they'll flame you for being rude and insensitive, without
ever actually responding to your critisism or queries.

Enjoy Tango-L; just don't take whatever's written too seriously.

Keith, HK


On Fri Nov 30 8:29 , dwyliu@gmail.com sent:

>Doug,
>
>I agree with Igor. Now is when you also have the most to benefit. We've
>been in the game for a while, and the truth is that most of us probably
>don't care what others think and aren't interested in arguing about minor
>details of technique.
>
>But, as a beginner coming into argentine tango, there probably a freshness
>to your questions that is appealing, and our responses might actually mean
>something - they may actually help!
>
>Do not be discouraged.
>
>Very Best,
>David







Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:24:56 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - stats/personal responsibility

Hello Doug (and everyone),

Welcome to a dance in which you'll never be fully satisfied
with how you dance. With time, you'll suck less and less.
Just enjoy the process, which is much more important than
the end result, anyway. So what if you don't become the
next Miguel Zotto.

As for those who are negative constantly, I feel sorry for
them (and for their students!). Their lives are so bad
that to feel good about themselves (or their dance) they
try to bring others down. How sad is that! But why should
their lives affect what you do with yours? Don't let that
happen! So, post away.

Plenty of people on this list find questions from newbies
to be interesting. Sometimes they cause experienced
dancers/teachers to reevaluate long-held beliefs, explore
forgotten ideas, or expand their teaching/learning styles.
And even if you do think "the cabaceo is stupid!", it can
still add insight to the issues many of us face in
educating and sharing the culture surrounding this dance.

Doug (and everyone), this is your list. Help make it the
list you want it to be. This may sound cold, but
ultimately, whatever fears/concerns you have about posting
to this list are yours to deal with and no one elses'.
Likewise, put the responsibility of flaming where it
belongs - on the flamers. Don't accept their issues as
your own. Why should you compromise your learning tango
because of someone else's problem?

And something tells me that you're mature enough to handle
them, anyway.

Looking forward to your future posts.

Trini de Pittsburgh

--- doug@swingfusion.com wrote:

> I am dancer 12 years but only beginning Tango dancer (1
> year). I am not
> great Tango dancer. Although I read Tango-L list, I
> don't contribute to
> list. It does not feel safe to do so. Maybe I write a
> lot. Maybe good
> ideas, maybe not. I go to New York, or BsAs, or
> somewhere. My dancing
> sucks. Everything I write is discount and all ideas bad.
> Maybe in 5 or 10
> years when I dance good, or maybe not good but good
> enough, I can write to
> Tango-L. You think?
>
>
>
> D.
>


PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
http://patangos.home.comcast.net/




Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.





Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:39:31 -0600
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - stats/personal responsibility

I'm not claiming to have become the next Miguel Zotto, but I don't agree
with what seems to be a somewhat negative philosophy expressed in the
following comments:

>Welcome to a dance in which you'll never be fully satisfied
>with how you dance. With time, you'll suck less and less.
>Just enjoy the process, which is much more important than
>the end result, anyway. So what if you don't become the
>next Miguel Zotto.

Maybe I've misinterpreted what has been written?

A great curse of tango is the extent to which it lends itself to the
pursuit of ever greater levels of perfection. As we learn something, our
knowledge often runs ahead of our skill, and recognition of that gap is
what impels us to go forward. Those who focus on how far they have to go
to reach perfection and never look back at how far they have come can burn
out from frustration.

I find that tango has become much more enjoyable now that I am no longer
seeking perfection.

Steve (de Tejas)






Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:03:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Nedret ?elebi <teptus@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)

Istanbul could be the second with the quality of dance, dancers, venues and instructors.


Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.




Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:21:00 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)


> Istanbul could be the second with the quality of dance, dancers, venues
> and instructors.
>

I have been to Hotel Armada, Tango Jeans, Bailatango and Old City milongas
in Istanbul. Bailatango I arrived around 1am (yes, I did! And a kind couple
I asked for directions to that part of Istiklal guided and bodyguarded me
all the way there from Taksim square, about 20 minutes walk), so it was
quite empty but the dances I got were impressive. Very fast steps and very
definite, bold leads, you embrace and wheeeh- off you go, no time to think.
Next time Paul kindly took me to the Old City milonga and I had the time of
my life ! Wow ! Never met dancers like this anywhere ! Esp. when I finally
got asked to dance by a man I had been watching on the floor for two days
already, at Armada the day before too. My God,, what a tango ! The
combination of great skill, passion and manliness thrilled me. In the end a
man standing by the bar clapped wildy, cheered and called out to us:"I
watched you. You made my day, you are the best couple here !" That is when I
confessed to this Turk that I had been waiting for him to ask me since
yesterday and he smiled shyly. Love this place.
Which other milongas do you recommend, Nedret?
And by the way, Aydogan, if you read this, here finally is my chance to say
how much I love tango in Istanbul ! ; )

Hope to see you all again and meet you too, Nedret.
Astrid, Tokyo






Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:16:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: tango-l@mit.edu








Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:28:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Thanks Martin, but I thought you said that you were going to delete my posts
without reading them...??
For your information; I also do NOT dance with men with hairy sweaty forearms
during classes. Why not? Because it turns me off and leaves me with a skeevy
feeling...and close embrace?
Forgeddabouditt








Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:02:06 -0600
From: David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>


Jack Dylan wrote

> It appears that Nuevo is more figure-oriented.
> Do you disagree with that?

Actually, and perhaps surprisingly to some on this list, I do disagree strongly.
I'll pick a two very simple examples. A volcada and a quick coldaga.

In the volcada, every aspect is led and can be modified or reversed at absolutely
any point in the "figure". I can easily lead my follow to sweep large or small radius, lead her leg to stop prior to
reaching my position and go back, lead her leg to stop in a (leaning) crusada position with or without a weight change,
lead her to sweep her leg so that it stops near me and then convert the volcada into a front step, etc. ad infinitum.

Quick Colgada: Say I lead a back ocho and step into my follow, placing one of my feet against 1/2 of her just landed foot and take her off axis (but supported) at the same time. I now have about a billion things I could lead from that position ranging from simply righting her and stepping out, to pivoting her in an outward leaning embrace, with all sorts of stuff in between.

Thus every Neuvo element (not figure!) can, and should be, used to help interpret the music. Yes, figures do get used as learning tools, but that should not be confused with dancing.

Honestly, I know no figures bigger than an ocho, a front step, a side step, a tip of my partner off axis, etc. I can dance an entire song, lead things I've never lead before, repeat nothing (except perhaps for a few of those pesky walking steps in between stopping to cause a traffic jam). I am also not even remotely unique in the world of leads
who are, or are trying to learn to be (this be me), decent Nuevo leads who listen to and interpret the music,
just as do dancers of all stripe.

Cheers

D. David Thorn

With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you.
http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008







Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:11 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

> every Neuvo element (not figure!) can, and should
> be, used to help interpret the music.

We've seen countless great video examples e.g. on youtube of real tango
dancing that is truly from the music.

I don't recall one convincing example of nuevo dancing from the music.

The examples of nuevo that most avoid offending the music are those that
most avoid the music e.g. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w-RqtiMZZpI .

If anyone has a video of David's "decent Nuevo leads who listen to and
interpret the music, just as do dancers of all stripe" then, please, let
us all see it.

--
Chris





Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:11 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)

>>I don't recall one convincing example of nuevo dancing from the music.<<

How about this?
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoIDW19494

( http://tinyurl.com/5vw4fj if that wraps )

It looks pretty musical to me. The dance goes back and forth between
close embrace and "neuvo," so view it till at least a minute before
you tell me it is not "nuevo."

You might also find the "a colgada odyessy" video on that page either
interesting or offensive.

And yes, there are some mistakes. The dances weren't performances per
se, but rather demonstrations of concepts taught in the preceding
workshops.





Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:56:46 -0500
From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>

Chrisjj wrote:

> I don't recall one convincing example of nuevo dancing from the music.

Chicho/Eugenia to El Recodo - you might not like it, but it's on the
music.
And I think most people would agree with calling this couple's dance
style "tango nuevo".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dZNG5IlvQw

> The examples of nuevo that most avoid offending the music are those
> that most avoid the music e.g. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w-RqtiMZZpI
> .

But, why do you call this piece "tango nuevo"? I would call it modern
dance utilizing material from tango. Calling it tango dancing of any
type is like calling Appalachian Spring folk music. (I'm not saying
the piece merits comparison to Copland.)

Brigitta Winkler, by the way, is known in the U.S. for teaching on the
"milonguero style" circuit. So you might as well call it "tango
milonguero".

> If anyone has a video of David's "decent Nuevo leads who listen to
> and interpret the music, just as do dancers of all stripe" then,
> please, let us all see it.

Really, Chris, I wonder what people think of when they refer to "tango
nuevo". I get the feeling that in some places dancers are besieged by
arrogant bands of wild music-ignoring acrobats, and they call them
"nuevos".









Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:16:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<60278.69.159.127.194.1218240975.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>

So now, we have arrived at the place where one maintains one's
"credibility" on Tango-L and self-respect by ... never posting to Tango-L.

If no people show up, no one wants to go.


I am thankful that the gratuitous moronic postings have been screened-out
since my last cry for sanity.

I think a couple of fish who were a nice catch got thrown out in the big net.

It wasn't easy to start this thing, and it is not easy to keep it going.

Harder all the time.

Needs re-dedication to original principles on everybody's part.


Talk, don't yell.

Ask opinions, don't declare.

Screen for idiocy, don't dictate.

The core of Tango-L is, for the most part, silent.

Getting it's voice to speak again ought to be the only concern.

No?















Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:49:13 -0600
From: David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>


Ernest wrote:

>> Tango rules do not always apply to milonga, milonga-candombera and canyengue.
>> In most cases these dances existed before the "sublime" rules associated with
>> tango liso existed. These dances have different characteristics, so much so that
>> they have different names.

>> I think this is just a case of not understanding what the characteristics of
>> milonga-candombera are and judging it through tango-liso eyes.

Ernest: Thank you for your posting. I have very much enjoyed watching you dance,
both on youtube and in person. You do actually dance! It looks like fun!

There are some excellent and well researched books out there dealing with the
history of tango, and explicitly with its African origins. That a number on
this list lack the required education to understand the consequences of this
history, and of the various styles that long predated modern "Social Tango", is
easily remedied. Read. Learn. You might for example start with
Tango: The Art History of Love by Robert Farris Thompson.

Cheers

D. David Thorn



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Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:13:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>

----- Original Message ----



Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>, Dubravko Kakarigi
<dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>

You could start here...
I haven't read the entire article for a while. Still...
http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A31481
a review/inerview with the author of Tango: An Art History of Love (Pantheon, 2005)
?
?


--- On Thu, 9/11/08, Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com> wrote:



From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: "tango-l" <tango-l@mit.edu>



Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:29:16 -0700
From: David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>


Nina wrote:
"If other cultures insist on taking credit for transforming and
evolving tango, they should stop calling it "Argentine" and call it
something else instead, like "no longer Argentine tango", or
something like that."

If asked what language I speak, I generally say English. I don't say 21st century American-
English with both NYC and West Coast influences, and with a smidgen of south Louisiana creole
influence for lagniappe. That would sound silly and rather pedantic to my ears.

So what do you say?

David.

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