4957 North American tango orchestras/bands
Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 14:27:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: tango@bostonphotographs.com
Subject: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<45768.206.210.27.33.1179512853.squirrel@webmail.netfirms.com>
I'm designing an extensive tango music survey and one of the questions is
about live music. I am looking to build a list with bands who play at
events in US & Canada. The list is below, if you can suggest more bands I
would appreciate it.
Regards
Sorin
my photography site: https://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: https://www.milongareview.com
blog: https://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
email: tango@bostonphotographs.com
Avantango (new york)
BA Tango band (Arizona)
Conjunto Berretin (Portland, OR)
Eternal Tango (new york)
Extasis (denver, co)
Fernando Oterro (NY)
Glovertango (austin, tx)
Hector Del Curto's Eternal Tango Orchestra ( & Trio) (NY)
Los Chantas (NY)
Los Gatos Azules (Providence, RI)
Raul Jaurena (NY)
Real Tango (miami, fl)
QuinTango (Alexandria, VA)
Mandr?gora Tango (Minneapolis)
Masstango (Boston, MA)
New York Tango Trio (NY)
Sweatshop Tango (Montreal, Canada)
Tango no. 9 (san francisco, ca)
Tango lorca (Kansas City)
Tango Pacifico (Portland, OR)
Tango Lorca (KC)
Tito Castro & Maurizio Najt (NY)
Tito Castro & Pancho Navarro (NY)
Trio Garufa (SF)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:27:11 -0700
From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@pobox.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (fwd) North American tango orchestras/bands
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hello Sorin,
How about:
Parlor Tango (Berkeley, California)
Contact: Odile Lavault <olavault@yahoo.com>
Ed
On Fri, 18 May 2007 14:27:33 -0400 (EDT), tango@bostonphotographs.com wrote:
>I'm designing an extensive tango music survey and one of the questions is
>about live music. I am looking to build a list with bands who play at
>events in US & Canada. The list is below, if you can suggest more bands I
>would appreciate it.
>
>Regards
>
>Sorin
>my photography site: https://www.bostonphotographs.com
>my milonga review site: https://www.milongareview.com
>blog: https://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
>email: tango@bostonphotographs.com
>
>Avantango (new york)
>BA Tango band (Arizona)
>Conjunto Berretin (Portland, OR)
>Eternal Tango (new york)
>Extasis (denver, co)
>Fernando Oterro (NY)
>Glovertango (austin, tx)
>Hector Del Curto's Eternal Tango Orchestra ( & Trio) (NY)
>Los Chantas (NY)
>Los Gatos Azules (Providence, RI)
>Raul Jaurena (NY)
>Real Tango (miami, fl)
>QuinTango (Alexandria, VA)
>Mandr?gora Tango (Minneapolis)
>Masstango (Boston, MA)
>New York Tango Trio (NY)
>Sweatshop Tango (Montreal, Canada)
>Tango no. 9 (san francisco, ca)
>Tango lorca (Kansas City)
>Tango Pacifico (Portland, OR)
>Tango Lorca (KC)
>Tito Castro & Maurizio Najt (NY)
>Tito Castro & Pancho Navarro (NY)
>Trio Garufa (SF)
>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 19:46:41 -0500
From: "burak ozkosem" <buraktango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: "tango@bostonphotographs.com" <tango@bostonphotographs.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<35ba58f10705181746x1bde2246na3afd48628d06825@mail.gmail.com>
Duo Folias (w/ Avik Basu on Bandoneon) Grand Rapids, MI
Alma De Tango Chicago,IL
Tiempo Tango Chicago,IL
Glover Gill's,GloverTango & Tosca String Quartet, Houston, TX
Hopefully the number of Tango bands will increase exponentially in near
future via increasing supports from Tango organizers in their local
communities.
Some might get upset but I'd rather buy Tango Album of a musician who is
alive, because these musicians will determine the future of Tango Music.
Therefore, i would suggest instructors to create awareness about "fresh
tango music" among their students.Then dancers will start buying these
albums, and they will start asking Djs if they can play some songs. So, this
would- hopefully- trigger Dj to look for new music choices addition to
golden tunes that every dj play. Of course this chain reaction would create
a new market for tango musicians who makes music for dancing as well.
Sorin, I'm looking forward to hear more about survey.
Burak
Chicago
www.tangoeclectique.com
On 5/18/07, tango@bostonphotographs.com <tango@bostonphotographs.com> wrote:
>
> I'm designing an extensive tango music survey and one of the questions is
> about live music. I am looking to build a list with bands who play at
> events in US & Canada. The list is below, if you can suggest more bands I
> would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
>
> Sorin
> my photography site: https://www.bostonphotographs.com
> my milonga review site: https://www.milongareview.com
> blog: https://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
> email: tango@bostonphotographs.com
>
> Avantango (new york)
> BA Tango band (Arizona)
> Conjunto Berretin (Portland, OR)
> Eternal Tango (new york)
> Extasis (denver, co)
> Fernando Oterro (NY)
> Glovertango (austin, tx)
> Hector Del Curto's Eternal Tango Orchestra ( & Trio) (NY)
> Los Chantas (NY)
> Los Gatos Azules (Providence, RI)
> Raul Jaurena (NY)
> Real Tango (miami, fl)
> QuinTango (Alexandria, VA)
> Mandr?gora Tango (Minneapolis)
> Masstango (Boston, MA)
> New York Tango Trio (NY)
> Sweatshop Tango (Montreal, Canada)
> Tango no. 9 (san francisco, ca)
> Tango lorca (Kansas City)
> Tango Pacifico (Portland, OR)
> Tango Lorca (KC)
> Tito Castro & Maurizio Najt (NY)
> Tito Castro & Pancho Navarro (NY)
> Trio Garufa (SF)
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 20:19:47 -0600
From: Shahin Medghalchi <TangoDream@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
Please add "Santa Fe Tango Ensemble" (Quintet)
Contact: Shahin Medghalchi ellatidodeltango@earthlink.net
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Thanks
Shahin
On 5/18/07 12:27 PM, "tango@bostonphotographs.com"
<tango@bostonphotographs.com> wrote:
> I'm designing an extensive tango music survey and one of the questions is
> about live music. I am looking to build a list with bands who play at
> events in US & Canada. The list is below, if you can suggest more bands I
> would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
>
> Sorin
> my photography site: https://www.bostonphotographs.com
> my milonga review site: https://www.milongareview.com
> blog: https://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
> email: tango@bostonphotographs.com
>
> Avantango (new york)
> BA Tango band (Arizona)
> Conjunto Berretin (Portland, OR)
> Eternal Tango (new york)
> Extasis (denver, co)
> Fernando Oterro (NY)
> Glovertango (austin, tx)
> Hector Del Curto's Eternal Tango Orchestra ( & Trio) (NY)
> Los Chantas (NY)
> Los Gatos Azules (Providence, RI)
> Raul Jaurena (NY)
> Real Tango (miami, fl)
> QuinTango (Alexandria, VA)
> Mandr?gora Tango (Minneapolis)
> Masstango (Boston, MA)
> New York Tango Trio (NY)
> Sweatshop Tango (Montreal, Canada)
> Tango no. 9 (san francisco, ca)
> Tango lorca (Kansas City)
> Tango Pacifico (Portland, OR)
> Tango Lorca (KC)
> Tito Castro & Maurizio Najt (NY)
> Tito Castro & Pancho Navarro (NY)
> Trio Garufa (SF)
>
>
--
Shahin Medghalchi
tangodream@earthlink.net
1201 Don Diego Ave.
Santa Fe, NM. 87505
505-983-9650
" tango is a feeling that is danced"
Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 19:56:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: "tango@bostonphotographs.com" <tango@bostonphotographs.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Somehow, I missed the original email to this thread.
In Pittsburgh, we are fortunate to now have 4 tango bands,
2 of which debuted this year. Here are three of them in
order of tango experience.
Tangueros de Ley
www.tanguerosdeley.com
Step (who also do original tangos)
www.jeremysment.com
La Bicicleta Blanca
https://www.myspace.com/bicicletablanca
The fourth, Caucion, is expected to make its professional
debut this summer. By professional debut, I refer to
playing at milongas for dancing.
All have strong ties to the dance community (either as
dancers themselves or significant others who are excellent
dancers).
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- burak ozkosem <buraktango@gmail.com> wrote:
> Duo Folias (w/ Avik Basu on Bandoneon) Grand Rapids, MI
> Alma De Tango Chicago,IL
> Tiempo Tango Chicago,IL
> Glover Gill's,GloverTango & Tosca String Quartet,
> Houston, TX
>
> Hopefully the number of Tango bands will increase
> exponentially in near
> future via increasing supports from Tango organizers in
> their local
> communities.
>
> Some might get upset but I'd rather buy Tango Album of a
> musician who is
> alive, because these musicians will determine the future
> of Tango Music.
> Therefore, i would suggest instructors to create
> awareness about "fresh
> tango music" among their students.Then dancers will start
> buying these
> albums, and they will start asking Djs if they can play
> some songs. So, this
> would- hopefully- trigger Dj to look for new music
> choices addition to
> golden tunes that every dj play. Of course this chain
> reaction would create
> a new market for tango musicians who makes music for
> dancing as well.
>
> Sorin, I'm looking forward to hear more about survey.
>
> Burak
> Chicago
> www.tangoeclectique.com
>
>
> On 5/18/07, tango@bostonphotographs.com
> <tango@bostonphotographs.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm designing an extensive tango music survey and one
> of the questions is
> > about live music. I am looking to build a list with
> bands who play at
> > events in US & Canada. The list is below, if you can
> suggest more bands I
> > would appreciate it.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Sorin
> > my photography site: https://www.bostonphotographs.com
> > my milonga review site: https://www.milongareview.com
> > blog: https://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
> > email: tango@bostonphotographs.com
> >
> > Avantango (new york)
> > BA Tango band (Arizona)
> > Conjunto Berretin (Portland, OR)
> > Eternal Tango (new york)
> > Extasis (denver, co)
> > Fernando Oterro (NY)
> > Glovertango (austin, tx)
> > Hector Del Curto's Eternal Tango Orchestra ( & Trio)
> (NY)
> > Los Chantas (NY)
> > Los Gatos Azules (Providence, RI)
> > Raul Jaurena (NY)
> > Real Tango (miami, fl)
> > QuinTango (Alexandria, VA)
> > Mandr?gora Tango (Minneapolis)
> > Masstango (Boston, MA)
> > New York Tango Trio (NY)
> > Sweatshop Tango (Montreal, Canada)
> > Tango no. 9 (san francisco, ca)
> > Tango lorca (Kansas City)
> > Tango Pacifico (Portland, OR)
> > Tango Lorca (KC)
> > Tito Castro & Maurizio Najt (NY)
> > Tito Castro & Pancho Navarro (NY)
> > Trio Garufa (SF)
> >
> >
> >
>
that gives answers, not web links.
Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 10:59:01 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mr tobias conradi <tobias_conradi@yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
How about copying this list to the wiki, so everybody who has an account there can add new orchestras?
best regards
Tobias
----- Urspr?ngliche Mail ----
Von: "tango@bostonphotographs.com" <tango@bostonphotographs.com>
An: tango-l@mit.edu
Gesendet: Freitag, den 18. Mai 2007, 20:27:33 Uhr
Betreff: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
I'm designing an extensive tango music survey and one of the questions is
about live music. I am looking to build a list with bands who play at
events in US & Canada. The list is below, if you can suggest more bands I
would appreciate it.
Regards
Sorin
my photography site: https://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: https://www.milongareview.com
blog: https://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
email: tango@bostonphotographs.com
Avantango (new york)
BA Tango band (Arizona)
Conjunto Berretin (Portland, OR)
Eternal Tango (new york)
Extasis (denver, co)
Fernando Oterro (NY)
Glovertango (austin, tx)
Hector Del Curto's Eternal Tango Orchestra ( & Trio) (NY)
Los Chantas (NY)
Los Gatos Azules (Providence, RI)
Raul Jaurena (NY)
Real Tango (miami, fl)
QuinTango (Alexandria, VA)
Mandr?gora Tango (Minneapolis)
Masstango (Boston, MA)
New York Tango Trio (NY)
Sweatshop Tango (Montreal, Canada)
Tango no. 9 (san francisco, ca)
Tango lorca (Kansas City)
Tango Pacifico (Portland, OR)
Tango Lorca (KC)
Tito Castro & Maurizio Najt (NY)
Tito Castro & Pancho Navarro (NY)
Trio Garufa (SF)
------------------------
--
Tobias Conradi
Rheinsberger Str. 18
10115 Berlin, Germany
https://eng.tango.info https://festivals.tango.info
https://reliquias.tango.info https://gmap.tango.info
https://info.tango.info
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:23:01 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Disclaimer:
For what it's worth I am a DJ. I started DJing in self defense,
because I hate dancing to any old random crap that gets sent out
of a speaker.
On Fri, 18 May 2007 19:46:41 -0500, "burak ozkosem"
<buraktango@gmail.com> said:
<snipped>
>
> Hopefully the number of Tango bands will increase exponentially in
> near future via increasing supports from Tango organizers in their
> local communities.
Um, when they're as danceable as Golden Age music, sure.
> Some might get upset but I'd rather buy Tango Album of a musician
> who is alive, because these musicians will determine the future
> of Tango Music.
Unless they get their act together, there will be no future to
tango music. I have yet to hear a tango group in the US that's
truly adequate for dancing the way Golden Age orchestras were.
At this point, the problems are manifold:
-- Adaptations of non-tango music that meander along and
never seem to go anywhere, sort of a "Philip Glass
Does Tango" effect.
-- lack of rhythmic drive (sorry, drum loops don't count)
-- use of rhythmic devices like breaks or submerging the
beat, without giving a signal to the dancers that lets
them pick up on what's coming.
-- Most of their music is waaaay too laid back, lacking
even the signs that something intense may be going on
under the surface.
Many are getting better, but none of them are on the same level
with the Golden Age stuff (yet). Let me be more specific about
that: If they were magically transported back to BA in the 1940
compared to Golden Age formations, most of them would have to
fight for a chance to play in the corner cafe for _free_.
> Therefore, I would suggest instructors to create awareness
> about "fresh tango music" among their students. Then dancers
> will start buying these albums, and they will start asking
> Djs if they can play some songs.
Some people will dance to anything. That's OK the same way
the fact that some people will sleep with anyone is ... the
lack of standards/boundaries is permissible, but not all
that acceptable, and a big red flag indicating possible
brokenness some place.
> So, this would - hopefully - trigger Dj to look for new
> music choices addition to golden tunes that every dj play.
> Of course this chain reaction would create a new market
> for tango musicians who makes music for dancing as well.
I would suggest another route to getting, new danceable music,
instead of a welfare system ... the Free Market way.
Sit down and listen politely to live music. When they ask you
why you aren't dancing to the nice music, tell them what's
missing in the music that causes you to stay in your seat. If
a band's been around for a while and don't start moving in the
direction of danceability, stop going to their events. When a
milonga promoter ask you why you didn't come to that last event
with the nice live band, tell the promoter, "Their music sucks
for dancing, and I go to a milonga to dance." If their music
is actually good listening despite being bad for dancing, you
can add, "When is their next concert, by the way?"
Given an atmosphere where tango groups have to prove themselves
worthy of support, I would hope that a few musicians do become
successful and can show the rest how it's done. It's not nice,
it's terribly Darwinian, but I'm tired of musicians who don't
want feedback from dancers about what is and isn't danceable.
Christopher
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:51:48 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: ceverett@ceverett.com, tango-l@mit.edu
>From: ceverett@ceverett.com
>To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
>Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:23:01 -0500
>
>Disclaimer:
>
>For what it's worth I am a DJ. I started DJing in self defense,
>because I hate dancing to any old random crap that gets sent out
>of a speaker.
>
>Some people will dance to anything. That's OK the same way
>the fact that some people will sleep with anyone is ...
LOL! I wish I'd come up with that one!
Cheers,
Manuel
More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
https://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:09:55 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Disclaimer:
>
> For what it's worth I am a DJ. I started DJing in self defense,
> because I hate dancing to any old random crap that gets sent out
> of a speaker.
Not much since a DJ doesn't have a musical education and does not comprehend
presenting nor arranging live music..
Isn't interesting that the least musically capable are the first to step up
to criticizer and in no competent way? It's been said before and warrants
being said again, if you want live music to improve, help it don't slam it.
The below post is pretty much rude and lacking in basic conceptualization of
what it takes to actually play live music. Try it for a day then criticize.
Now if you want to make helpful suggestions, more power to you but, save the
prick-like commentary because, it doesn't make musicians want to listen to
you.
Trust me on this a small community such as this needs cultivating of live
music NOT free market system. The main reason is that there is not enough in
the way of resources nor musicians.
_A
>
> On Fri, 18 May 2007 19:46:41 -0500, "burak ozkosem"
> <buraktango@gmail.com> said:
> <snipped>
>>
>> Hopefully the number of Tango bands will increase exponentially in
>> near future via increasing supports from Tango organizers in their
>> local communities.
>
> Um, when they're as danceable as Golden Age music, sure.
>
>> Some might get upset but I'd rather buy Tango Album of a musician
>> who is alive, because these musicians will determine the future
>> of Tango Music.
>
> Unless they get their act together, there will be no future to
> tango music. I have yet to hear a tango group in the US that's
> truly adequate for dancing the way Golden Age orchestras were.
>
> At this point, the problems are manifold:
>
> -- Adaptations of non-tango music that meander along and
> never seem to go anywhere, sort of a "Philip Glass
> Does Tango" effect.
> -- lack of rhythmic drive (sorry, drum loops don't count)
> -- use of rhythmic devices like breaks or submerging the
> beat, without giving a signal to the dancers that lets
> them pick up on what's coming.
> -- Most of their music is waaaay too laid back, lacking
> even the signs that something intense may be going on
> under the surface.
>
> Many are getting better, but none of them are on the same level
> with the Golden Age stuff (yet). Let me be more specific about
> that: If they were magically transported back to BA in the 1940
> compared to Golden Age formations, most of them would have to
> fight for a chance to play in the corner cafe for _free_.
>
>> Therefore, I would suggest instructors to create awareness
>> about "fresh tango music" among their students. Then dancers
>> will start buying these albums, and they will start asking
>> Djs if they can play some songs.
>
> Some people will dance to anything. That's OK the same way
> the fact that some people will sleep with anyone is ... the
> lack of standards/boundaries is permissible, but not all
> that acceptable, and a big red flag indicating possible
> brokenness some place.
>
>> So, this would - hopefully - trigger Dj to look for new
>> music choices addition to golden tunes that every dj play.
>> Of course this chain reaction would create a new market
>> for tango musicians who makes music for dancing as well.
>
> I would suggest another route to getting, new danceable music,
> instead of a welfare system ... the Free Market way.
>
> Sit down and listen politely to live music. When they ask you
> why you aren't dancing to the nice music, tell them what's
> missing in the music that causes you to stay in your seat. If
> a band's been around for a while and don't start moving in the
> direction of danceability, stop going to their events. When a
> milonga promoter ask you why you didn't come to that last event
> with the nice live band, tell the promoter, "Their music sucks
> for dancing, and I go to a milonga to dance." If their music
> is actually good listening despite being bad for dancing, you
> can add, "When is their next concert, by the way?"
>
> Given an atmosphere where tango groups have to prove themselves
> worthy of support, I would hope that a few musicians do become
> successful and can show the rest how it's done. It's not nice,
> it's terribly Darwinian, but I'm tired of musicians who don't
> want feedback from dancers about what is and isn't danceable.
>
> Christopher
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:05:20 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: "AJ Azure" <azure.music@verizon.net>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340705231305x7b5acf1buc60a71a4d9f4bd3b@mail.gmail.com>
On 5/23/07, AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Disclaimer:
> >
> > For what it's worth I am a DJ. I started DJing in self defense,
> > because I hate dancing to any old random crap that gets sent out
> > of a speaker.
>
> Not much since a DJ doesn't have a musical education and does not comprehend
> presenting nor arranging live music..
> Isn't interesting that the least musically capable are the first to step up
> to criticizer and in no competent way? It's been said before and warrants
> being said again, if you want live music to improve, help it don't slam it.
> The below post is pretty much rude and lacking in basic conceptualization of
> what it takes to actually play live music. Try it for a day then criticize.
> Now if you want to make helpful suggestions, more power to you but, save the
> prick-like commentary because, it doesn't make musicians want to listen to
> you.
Dear 'A':
I think it would help to listen to tango dancers. Most of us recognize
and admire the technical ability of current day tango musicians in
creating tango music. Much of it is very very nice to listen to.
However, when we get on the dance floor, very little of what
contemporary tango bands play has the clear rhythmic qualities that
Golden Age tango music has. If contemporary tango bands could recreate
some aspect of D'arienzo (like Los Reyes del Tango), Di Sarli (like
Gente de Tango), Calo (San Souci), or danceable Pugliese (Color Tango
most of the time) they would have an incredibly large following.
We're just speaking as dancers, not as musicians! If you want us to
want you at our milongas, just listen to us! We would love to have
danceable live music at our milongas!
Ron
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:26 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net> wrote:
> The below post is pretty much rude and lacking in basic
> conceptualization of what it takes to actually play live music.
> Try it for a day then criticize.
Hmmm... that's like a film director rejecting critics' panning of his work
on the grounds that they've never made a film.
> save the prick-like commentary because, it doesn't make musicians want
> to listen to you.
Any musician who needs to be /made/ to listen to his customers has already
been chosen by Chris's Darwinian selection - for extinction.
> many of the musicians out there are highly educated in
> music technique, theory and history.
Well, then they surely deserve full marks in their conservertoire written
exams. Meanwhile here in the real world, what's needed is musicians highly
educated in delivering what dancers want.
--
Chris
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:52:21 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
>> The below post is pretty much rude and lacking in basic
>> conceptualization of what it takes to actually play live music.
>> Try it for a day then criticize.
>
> Hmmm... that's like a film director rejecting critics' panning of his work
> on the grounds that they've never made a film.
>
How ironic and perfect for you to choose this example. Most critics are
hack, failures who envy directors and are only wanna be film makers.
However, some critics actually understand film making. Do dancers understand
music making EVEN if you can't? In other words pedestrian criticism is
worthless. Informed criticism is constructive.
>> save the prick-like commentary because, it doesn't make musicians want
>> to listen to you.
>
> Any musician who needs to be /made/ to listen to his customers has already
> been chosen by Chris's Darwinian selection - for extinction.
We don't need to be made to listen but, guess what if we listen and are
spoken to that way, yeah we'll stop listening!
>
>> many of the musicians out there are highly educated in
>> music technique, theory and history.
>
> Well, then they surely deserve full marks in their conservertoire written
> exams. Meanwhile here in the real world, what's needed is musicians highly
> educated in delivering what dancers want.
My point is have some respect! Then perhaps learning better communication
skills so musicians can learn what dancers want might go further in your
attempts to get what you want.
_A
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:37 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net> :
> Do dancers understand music making EVEN if you can't?
They certainly do understand whether the music making is up to the
requirements of dancers. Who could possibly be considered a better judge?
> My point is have some respect!
I have respect for would-be tango musicians, but no more than is due. I'm
sorry that apparently falls well short of what you think is deserved.
> perhaps learning better communication skills so musicians can learn what
> dancers want might go further in your attempts to get what you want.
Dancers communicate by dancing - or not. Musicians simply need to take note.
And if help is needed, just look to the many existing expert music
providers - DJs. Given what a great job many of them do, even though as
you said "a DJ doesn't have a musical education", it can't be /that/ hard,
can it? ;)
--
Chris
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:11:29 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
> From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> Reply-To: <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:37 +0100 (BST)
> Cc: <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
>
> AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net> :
>
>> Do dancers understand music making EVEN if you can't?
>
> They certainly do understand whether the music making is up to the
> requirements of dancers. Who could possibly be considered a better judge?
No no you clearly don't get the question which, answers it. You don't
understand what making music involves and yes that definitely DOES make a
difference in your quality of feedback.
>
>> My point is have some respect!
>
> I have respect for would-be tango musicians, but no more than is due. I'm
> sorry that apparently falls well short of what you think is deserved.
No you clearly don't because, you mAade the next statement.
>
>> perhaps learning better communication skills so musicians can learn what
>> dancers want might go further in your attempts to get what you want.
>
> Dancers communicate by dancing - or not. Musicians simply need to take note.
Sorry no. When you open your mouth to criticize you do not communicate by
dancing. More importantly if you want something you have to communicate it
properly.
>
> And if help is needed, just look to the many existing expert music
> providers - DJs. Given what a great job many of them do, even though as
> you said "a DJ doesn't have a musical education", it can't be /that/ hard,
> can it? ;)
You're kidding right? Spinning a CD is NOT making music. I happen to DJ and
I'll tell you I am better than any average DJ because, I have an
understanding of music. SO DJs are only an example of regurgitation. Yes
they fill a service and have value but, they're not a guide to making music.
Then you ask it can't be that hard? Again you're displaying your ignorance
about music making and arranging when you make a statement like that.
_A
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 23:55 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net> wrote
> How ironic and perfect for you to choose this example. Most critics are
> hack, failures who envy directors
You think most dancers are failures who envy the musicians? I think not.
Most dancers have no interest at all in making music. They'd far rather
dance.
> I happen to DJ and I'll tell you I am better than any average DJ
> because, I have an understanding of music.
Um, news for you: /all/ good DJs have an understanding of music. If they
didn't they wouldn't be good DJs.
--
Chris
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:18:05 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
This is from a private responce, but I want to make it public:
....
D'Arinezo is simple !?
Ok. Why not to play like D'Arienzo, then. If it is simple. Or it is so
simple that our advanced musicians do not even bother to try. But as a test?
Well, at dancing parties we want sometimes something simple. It goes in
waves, you know..
How about Firpo, Canaro, Ortiz, Orquesta Tipica Victor? Their groups, trios
and quartets? No. You jump to Biagi. Ever seen a musician trying to play
Chopin before a folk dance is mastered?
"Simple" is not a name-calling. It is the basis. It takes the true
understanding to make things simple. Mastering "simple" is a sign of
maturity. My plea to play simple does not insult anyone, except those who
deserve be insulted. If you are not able to play simple, you should not even
try to play complex! Otherwise you do not understand what you are doing, and
that is exactly what I am talking about.
Biagi style is based on older, more traditional tango. How can you possibly
study and make conclusions about Biagi, if you do not know the basis Biagi
stand upon? You must understand that Biagi's audience was savvy, and the
goals of Biagi was to play music and impress those who knew older staff
already. That is how I understand it.
With modern technology you have way more music examples, material to study
than any of musicians of the past. Use it!
I do not know the group you was talking about, but I know that there are
good musicians trying to play good tangos. For example, San Francisco's
Tango No 9 is very good. They play in many styles and very rhythmically and
danceably correct. And they can play Piazzolla too. My greatest respect to
those who play right tangos for us !!!
Igor Polk.
PS,
Aj, there is NO ONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD WHO KNOWS HOW TO PLAY TANGO LIKE IN
OLD TIMES !
There is no one to take advice from.
There is only one source of knowledge - CDs with old records.
And THAT IS GOOD ! It puts everyone in the world on the same starting line !
Buy 200 Tango CDs, study them - and here you are - with some luck you are a
TANGO GOD !!!
There is nothing really special about it. The recopy is simple: start with
beginning ! Start building your house from the basement !
WHY, WHY, WHY, ( as Aj said ) there are so many great, educated, talented
tango musicians,
and there are so many of them who can not play tango right !!!!?????
There is only two answers, either they are ignorant, ignorant to dancers, to
history, or not as good as they think about themselves.
Igor Polk
ipolk@virtuar.com
510-582-8711
510-610-8711
www.virtuar.com
ICQ 327627436
San Francisco
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:34:41 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
>> How ironic and perfect for you to choose this example. Most critics are
>> hack, failures who envy directors
>
> You think most dancers are failures who envy the musicians? I think not.
> Most dancers have no interest at all in making music. They'd far rather
> dance.
>
chip on your shoulder? I didn't say that did I? You read sub-text which I
did not write. I merely meant that by choosing that example you prove my
point well about criticizing from a place of ignorance.
>> I happen to DJ and I'll tell you I am better than any average DJ
>> because, I have an understanding of music.
>
> Um, news for you: /all/ good DJs have an understanding of music. If they
> didn't they wouldn't be good DJs.
>
Uh again sorry that shows you have absolutely NO clue what a musician does.
DJs can understand many things about music but, NOT everything behind the
music with out actually studying music.
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 01:08 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>:
> DJs can understand many things about music but, NOT everything behind
> the music with out actually studying music.
Try telling the film director he doesn't understand everything "behind the
film" without having studied the chemistry of celluloid and the mechanics
of cameras... ;)
A good DJ does not need to understand everything "behind the music". He
needs to understand everything in front - the music as experienced by the
dancers. By definition nothing else matters, because his goal is the
dancers' enjoyment.
>> great, educated, talented tango musicians ...
> They may not play tango how you want them to but
AJ, there is no "but". The musicians either play tango how the dancers
want it or they are soon out of a job. That's life.
--
Chris
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:29:35 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
>> DJs can understand many things about music but, NOT everything behind
>> the music with out actually studying music.
>
> Try telling the film director he doesn't understand everything "behind the
> film" without having studied the chemistry of celluloid and the mechanics
> of cameras... ;)
It's pretty clear you don't understand film making either if you can make
that statement. Most film maker understand the mechanics of cameras but,
regardless of that your metaphor is very flawed. A DJ is like someone
watching a movie and let's say deciding the schedule of how the movies are
screened. That's definitely NOT a film maker.
>
> A good DJ does not need to understand everything "behind the music". He
> needs to understand everything in front - the music as experienced by the
> dancers. By definition nothing else matters, because his goal is the
> dancers' enjoyment.
A good DJ doesn't need to but, guess what that's why they're not a musician
and can never be as intimately involved in what they play. They CAN
understand what they play but, not at the same level. An understanding of
the music at a higher level in fact DOES allow them to understand the affect
of the music beyond mere listening and dancing. Music and tonality have
psychological and emotional affects as does pitch and frequency,
Understanding this provides for a deeper performanc eprocess or playback if
DJing.
>
>>> great, educated, talented tango musicians ...
>> They may not play tango how you want them to but
>
> AJ, there is no "but". The musicians either play tango how the dancers
> want it or they are soon out of a job. That's life.
I said you as I you specifically. They may play tango how other people want
them to. You are not the center of the tango universe.
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:02:58 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: azure.music@verizon.net, tango-l@mit.edu
Dear A:
A DJ or a dancer can certainly criticize tango music in a competent way. One
does not need a scintilla of musical training to decide what one likes or
what works for one's purpose. Nobody has accused the musicians of playing
bad music or playing badly so far. Most of the criticism is about the way
the music works for the tango dancers.
I know several tango musicians, most are extremely good at their job and
their art. These guys are the real deal, the authentic, Argentine tango
musicians who actually played with the tango orchestras that we know and
love. However, as good as they are and as good as their music is, the trios,
quartets and sextets they perform with do not sound like the rhythmic
orchestras of the golden era of tango. Even some top notch, excellent, world
class orchestras whose talent and artistic prowess is incredibly good still,
do not play music suitable for a milonga.
The fact is that many contemporary tango orchestras play music of extremely
high quality, but not the rhythmic stuff which the dancers love. There are
some notable exceptions but they do not play in the USA (that I'm aware of).
Anyway, the DJs and dancers are frustrated because we do not get enough
danceable music from the contemporary tango musicians. I hope that more
musicians will decide to create danceable tango music. It does not have to
be a copy of the classics. The musicians own style and artistic creativity
can shine. Actually it would be much better if each new group would have
their own distinctive style. It would be great to have good, new,
acoustically superior music to play at the milongas.
Regards,
Manuel
>Not much since a DJ doesn't have a musical education and does not
>comprehend
>presenting nor arranging live music..
>Isn't interesting that the least musically capable are the first to step up
>to criticizer and in no competent way? It's been said before and warrants
>being said again, if you want live music to improve, help it don't slam it.
>The below post is pretty much rude and lacking in basic conceptualization
>of
>what it takes to actually play live music. Try it for a day then criticize.
>Now if you want to make helpful suggestions, more power to you but, save
>the
>prick-like commentary because, it doesn't make musicians want to listen to
>you.
>
>Trust me on this a small community such as this needs cultivating of live
>music NOT free market system. The main reason is that there is not enough
>in
>the way of resources nor musicians.
>
>_A
Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the im Initiative now.
Its free. https://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 23:45:52 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Wed, 23 May 2007 15:09:55 -0400, "AJ Azure" <azure.music@verizon.net>
said:
>
> > Disclaimer:
> >
> > For what it's worth I am a DJ. I started DJing in self defense,
> > because I hate dancing to any old random crap that gets sent out
> > of a speaker.
>
> Not much since a DJ doesn't have a musical education and does not
> comprehend presenting nor arranging live music.
I can read sheet music. I did junior high and high school
choir. I used to play tenor and study small group jazz.
I'm not exactly ignorant about presenting and arranging music,
though I was always a sideman and never more than an amateur.
> Isn't interesting that the least musically capable are the first
> to step up to criticize and in no competent way?
Let me turn that around:
Does a person need to be a senior politico, statesman or
soldier to recognize the futility of what my country is
trying in Iraq? No, 2/3rds of all Americans are smarter
(or dumber, according to your political convictions) than
Mr. Wolfowitz.
Do women need advanced degrees in psychology, sexology or
biology to judge whether certain men shouldn't be allowed
to reproduce? Absolutely not, they do it all the time.
So to hear you say I need to be a musician to decide whether
some live tango band plays danceable music is just plain dumb.
I've heard good live tango, but none of it in the US.
> It's been said before and warrants being said again, if
> you want live music to improve, help it don't slam it.
Tough love is not help? :)
Live tango is like mayonnaise: tasty but not really for
eating by itself. Much better on a sandwich, and you can
make a sandwich without it.
Nice big tango communities with lots of excellent dance
partners can happen without live music. A live tango
scene improves a community somewhat in certain circumstances,
but doesn't suffice to create a tango community by itself.
> The below post is pretty much rude and lacking in basic
> conceptualization of what it takes to actually play live
> music. Try it for a day then criticize.
So you want a little cheese with that whine? It may indeed
be rude. It may reflect total ignorance of what it takes to
do live music.
It does reflect years of experience dancing to both recorded
and live music, and lots and lots of feedback from dancers
that I DJ for, both in what they tell me they like and what
I see in their responses to what I play. The snark factor
just reflects years of disappointment with live tango.
It doesn't take a Ph.D. in musicology or dance to understand
why some music works for dancing and other doesn't.
> Now if you want to make helpful suggestions, more power to
> you but, save the prick-like commentary because, it doesn't
> make musicians want to listen to you.
Musicians already don't want to listen, most seem to think
you know it all. Must be all that music education.
If I went to work and turned such a tin ear to my employer's
needs, I'd get my ass kicked out onto the sidewalk in a hurry.
Deservedly so.
Take this as a wake up call. I'm not the only guy spreading
this meme.
> Trust me on this a small community such as this needs
> cultivating of live music
But, we don't need live music to grow our tango communities
as big as we want them. Dancers shouldn't have to struggle
to communicate our likes and dislikes on your terms.
The corollary is that if we can find room in our hearts
for orchestras as diverse D'Arienzo, Di Sarli, Firpo and
Pugliese, we can surely find room for another of the same
quality. We have in the past.
> NOT free market system. The main reason is that there is
> not enough in the way of resources nor musicians.
You mean you want charity?
Christopher
> _A
> >
> > On Fri, 18 May 2007 19:46:41 -0500, "burak ozkosem"
> > <buraktango@gmail.com> said:
> > <snipped>
> >>
> >> Hopefully the number of Tango bands will increase exponentially in
> >> near future via increasing supports from Tango organizers in their
> >> local communities.
> >
> > Um, when they're as danceable as Golden Age music, sure.
> >
> >> Some might get upset but I'd rather buy Tango Album of a musician
> >> who is alive, because these musicians will determine the future
> >> of Tango Music.
> >
> > Unless they get their act together, there will be no future to
> > tango music. I have yet to hear a tango group in the US that's
> > truly adequate for dancing the way Golden Age orchestras were.
> >
> > At this point, the problems are manifold:
> >
> > -- Adaptations of non-tango music that meander along and
> > never seem to go anywhere, sort of a "Philip Glass
> > Does Tango" effect.
> > -- lack of rhythmic drive (sorry, drum loops don't count)
> > -- use of rhythmic devices like breaks or submerging the
> > beat, without giving a signal to the dancers that lets
> > them pick up on what's coming.
> > -- Most of their music is waaaay too laid back, lacking
> > even the signs that something intense may be going on
> > under the surface.
> >
> > Many are getting better, but none of them are on the same level
> > with the Golden Age stuff (yet). Let me be more specific about
> > that: If they were magically transported back to BA in the 1940
> > compared to Golden Age formations, most of them would have to
> > fight for a chance to play in the corner cafe for _free_.
> >
> >> Therefore, I would suggest instructors to create awareness
> >> about "fresh tango music" among their students. Then dancers
> >> will start buying these albums, and they will start asking
> >> Djs if they can play some songs.
> >
> > Some people will dance to anything. That's OK the same way
> > the fact that some people will sleep with anyone is ... the
> > lack of standards/boundaries is permissible, but not all
> > that acceptable, and a big red flag indicating possible
> > brokenness some place.
> >
> >> So, this would - hopefully - trigger Dj to look for new
> >> music choices addition to golden tunes that every dj play.
> >> Of course this chain reaction would create a new market
> >> for tango musicians who makes music for dancing as well.
> >
> > I would suggest another route to getting, new danceable music,
> > instead of a welfare system ... the Free Market way.
> >
> > Sit down and listen politely to live music. When they ask you
> > why you aren't dancing to the nice music, tell them what's
> > missing in the music that causes you to stay in your seat. If
> > a band's been around for a while and don't start moving in the
> > direction of danceability, stop going to their events. When a
> > milonga promoter ask you why you didn't come to that last event
> > with the nice live band, tell the promoter, "Their music sucks
> > for dancing, and I go to a milonga to dance." If their music
> > is actually good listening despite being bad for dancing, you
> > can add, "When is their next concert, by the way?"
> >
> > Given an atmosphere where tango groups have to prove themselves
> > worthy of support, I would hope that a few musicians do become
> > successful and can show the rest how it's done. It's not nice,
> > it's terribly Darwinian, but I'm tired of musicians who don't
> > want feedback from dancers about what is and isn't danceable.
> >
> > Christopher
>
>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:46:26 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Over here in Oz, the choice is small and we tend to take what we can
get... which is a frustrating mix of bands that almost get it, and
ones for whom dancers are on the fringe of their interest.
I am all for guided evolution of tango bands. How best to do the
guiding is not clear.
Because the market is small, and many musicians and others in tango
are not doing it to maximise their earnings, market economics will
not produce what we want.
But we need to think about what we really want, and how to best
influence musicians, composers, arrangers, organisers, promoters --
and other dancers.
Shouting "play something we can dance to" at the band (literally or
online) is unlikely to influence them positively. And just not
turning up to gigs is a very blunt instrument.
We can make suggestions about what we hear vs what we think we want
to hear, which may be useful ( if they are in fact wanting to please
tango-dancers).
But what (most of us) cannot do is to tell them _how_ they should fix
it.
> I hope that more musicians will decide to create danceable tango
> music. It does not have to be a copy of the classics. The
> musicians own style and artistic creativity can shine. Actually it
> would be much better if each new group would have their own
> distinctive style. It would be great to have good, new,
> acoustically superior music to play at the milongas.
>
Absolutely. This is what I want.
Part of the difficulty seems to be that many people wanting to play
tango come from one of two places:
1) A mostly classical playing background. Their playing can be
wonderful, and they can work directly from scores! but... they often
have little idea how to approach music for dancing. They are often
not used to the kind of direct discussion we are having here. They
often do not have composition or arrangement expertise. They often
have similar problems moving into tango as they have playing folk
music -- and are similarly mystified when folk audiences find them
unsatisfying.
2) A folk music performance background. They can play tunes and
arrangements by ear, and are often inspired seat-of-the-pants
arrangers, who are used to audiences who say what they think. but...
they often have little idea that there are dances, such as tango, for
which the music has very specific characteristics, beyond the
banality of time signature or a signature rhythm. And often, they are
either not able to read sheet music, or only use it to get a tune,
not an arrangement.
Of course, there are exceptions, but it is rare to find a musician
who is actually excited by the idea of playing tango for dancing, let
alone to find a full band of good musicians with a composer and an
arranger who are all heading in that direction. This group then also
needs to have an understanding of tango and playing for dancing,
which they will need to satisfy tango crowds.
They need our help in this, and our support, especially in the early
stages while they find their feet.
And so I and others go out of our way to approach musicians in
'tango' bands, suss out whether they are aiming at being danceable
for tango, and then give them useful feedback. This extends as far
as giving them CDs, pointing them towards sources for scores,
discussions about music and dancing etc.
I think this help can make a far more useful difference than just
supporting bands who are not playing what we want.
my 2.2c
Gary
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:36 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] North American tango orchestras/bands
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
AJ wrote:
> Most film maker understand the mechanics of cameras but,
> regardless of that your metaphor is very flawed. A DJ is like ..
You've muddled the metaphors. My example - which you called "perfect" -
was in relation not to DJs, but to 'unqualified' dancers criticising
musicians.
Whcih reminds me: musicians that reject dancers' criticism might have a
bit more credibility if they were as quick to reject dancers' applause...
> An understanding of the music at a higher level in fact DOES allow them
> to understand the affect of the music beyond mere listening and dancing.
AJ, there is nothing "mere" about listening and dancing. At the milonga,
listening and dancing is 100% of the experience we have of the music.
In contrast, the stuff (or indeed staff) that is hidden "behind" the
music, or exists only at the higher level you describe, or for whatever
reason is perceivable/understandable only to those such as yourself that
have been elevated by formal musical training, is simply not part of this
picture. It's merely incidental.
The good DJ knows this and doesn't let these incidentals distract him from
delivering the essentials. This is how he hits the mark for the dancers.
Yes, his job is much easier than the musician's - playing a great piece of
music takes one button press not thousands - but the dancers judge success
not by effort but by results.
And here's the opportunity for musicians to learn from DJs. Lesson #1:
notice how many Piazzolla pieces a successful DJ plays per night?
Approximately zero. That surely makes it obvious to just about every live
band I've heard in the last few years how they can improve their sets in
one fell stroke.
--
Chris
