6187  obsession with nuevo

ARTICLE INDEX


Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:47:35 GMT
From: "larrynla@juno.com" <larrynla@juno.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
To: tango-L@mit.edu

I see in this and other tango forums a near-hysterical obsession with nuevo
tango and its perceived threat to "real authentic tango" - which usually means
"tango the way I do it" but justified often by claiming their way is how its
done in the tango Mecca of Buenos Aires. In the 20 years I've been obsessed
with tango I've seen the same hysteria twice before in tango. Both times it
blew over only to be replaced by yet another thing to be alarmed about, this
time nuevo.

For that matter I've seen similar alarms in other fields, starting with swing
when I was 15 in the 50s and learned the rock'n'roll version from a barmaid
between school and happy hour in my uncle's honky-tonk. Later I took up west-
coast swing. In both styles of swing I saw several different hostile divisions.
In the east coast swing it was between the Benny Goodman swingers (the "real
true swing") and rock'n'rollers of the 50s.

I also learned the Balboa, though only as a curiosity. It is a sort of
"milonguero" version of swing developed in the shoulder-to-shoulder
Benny-Goodman-years of swing.

http://www.balboanation.com/balboa.html

The interesting thing about the Balboa is that there were two versions - the
tight "milonguero" form, and the new bat-swing form which opened up the embrace
and allowed nuevo swing moves. The couple from whom I learned the Balboa waxed
nostalgic about the times when hostile camps fought over which was the real
swing. Here is a video that shows a couple starting in classic Balboa form and
moving into bat-swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gunvVp-Qymg

When I moved to L.A. in 1982 to work at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab I first got
involved in the swing community here. But I started dating a woman from
Columbia, who introduced me to the cumbia, a sort of slow salsa with different
instruments. (You should learn the cumbia if you're going to Buenos Aires,
since it's easy to learn and a popular dance in the non-tango tandas in many
milongas, and a good way to meet people you may want to dance tango with.)

>>From there I moved to the salsa world. And found yet another set of hostile

camps. The older salseros danced on the two, doing the first step of the
triple-step basic on the second beat of the 4/4 measure. The newer salseros
danced on the one, the first beat of the measure. Oh, the anger and arguments!

And with that perspective let's move back to tango nuevo. I consider myself a
nuevo dancer, and can do some of the more radical moves. I'll sometimes do them
very early or very late when the floor is more open and my partner also has a
nuevo background or is simply a very good dancer. But when the floor gets
crowded I tighten up my embrace and do small movements. Nor am I an exception.
Most of the people I've seen in tango nuevo classes do the same.

Of course you always see people who race, stop for a long time and block the
flow, play chicken with other dancers, and bump you if you're in their way. But
this has nothing to do with the style of tango they do. It's because they are
selfish, arrogant, ass-holes. You see that in every form of dance, especially
in the salsa and east-coast swing world where dancing sometimes seems a form of
warfare.

Maybe courtesy is less in newer tango communities, but L.A. is a mature tango
community and carelessness on the dance floor is one of those rough edges that
have been much smoothed since the early 90s - though it still exists. Ass-hole-
ness never goes all the way away.


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com




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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:58:16 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>



-----Original Message-----



Sent: Monday, 1 December 2008 4:48 AM
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with Nuevo

>Of course you always see people who race, stop for a long time and block

the flow, play chicken with other dancers, and >bump you if you're in their
way. But this has nothing to do with the style of tango they do. It's
because they are >selfish, arrogant, ass-holes. You see that in every form
of dance, especially in the salsa and east-coast swing world >where dancing
sometimes seems a form of warfare.

Totally agree. I see a difference between, cities where a tight, close frame
is required and a respect for others is shown to places where it seems the
definition of a good dance is how many ganchos and volcadas can be thrown in
a song no matter who is around.

Lately I have been concentrating on trying to smoothly turn my partner
keeping the axis, do mirror giros and project through in my basic walks. A
large minority to tango seem in the main want to do fantasia so how do I
satisfy their needs while getting enough dances of my own?






Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:00:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
To: tango-L@mit.edu, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com>


--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> A
> large minority to tango seem in the main want to do
> fantasia so how do I
> satisfy their needs while getting enough dances of my own?

In what context? As a teacher, deejay, organizer, or fellow dancer?

Trini de Pittsburgh










Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:03:18 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
To: tango-L@mit.edu
<cff24c340812011003s1121886fr58d87dd5b44a1047@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:47 AM, larrynla@juno.com <larrynla@juno.com> wrote:

> I see in this and other tango forums a near-hysterical obsession with nuevo
> tango and its perceived threat to "real authentic tango" - which usually means
> "tango the way I do it" but justified often by claiming their way is how its
> done in the tango Mecca of Buenos Aires. In the 20 years I've been obsessed
> with tango I've seen the same hysteria twice before in tango. Both times it
> blew over only to be replaced by yet another thing to be alarmed about, this
> time nuevo.
>
> For that matter I've seen similar alarms in other fields, starting with swing ...
>

It does not matter if there have been controversies about what is
authentic in swing or salsa or even lambada. The issue here is
authenticity in tango. The situation is as simple as this. Nuevo
probably accounts for less than 5% of social tango dancing in Buenos
Aires and it is practiced in only a few places (primarily Villa
Malcolm and Practica X) and these (mostly) practicas are heavily
populated by foreigners. On the other hand, about 95% or more of
social tango dancing in Buenos Aires (over 100 milongas per week) is
tango de salon danced in a close embrace.

In the US, nuevo and fantasia are the dominant forms of tango in most
tango communities. There are some tango communities where it is rare
to find someone dancing tango de salon (i.e., some variety of tango in
close embrace as danced in Buenos Aires). There is a discrepancy here.

I find it very interesting that on this discussion list and others
there are always arguments that someone in Buenos Aires was spotted
dancing in an open embrace, or decreasing nuevo movements to fit a
smaller space. It is also noteworthy that the Loch Ness monster has
been sighted several times in Scotland, but that doesn't mean it's a
dominant species it its ecosystem. And then there are the constant
claims that nuevo is justifiable on the grounds that it represents our
tango future (and, of course, the US is ahead of Argentina in knowing
what future tango will have), whereas it quite possibly represents
some evolutionary experiment for which we have no knowledge of what
it's future may be.

It is relevant to note that TODAY in Buenos Aires Tango de Salon
(tango danced in some form of close embrace) is by far the most common
form of social tango. That the social tango scenes in the US and
Europe and parts of Asia are so different from Buenos Aires is the
result of biased cultural transmission. The primary causes of this are
unrepresentative exportation (sampling error) of tango and
differential success in establishment (for the biologists: akin to
genetic drift and differential replication). The tango instructors
from Argentina teaching in the US represent the sampling error in
teaching primarily nuevo and fantasia, explicitly or implicitly
represented as social tango, which it is not in Buenos Aires. Their
presence and success is due to its cultural acceptability in the US,
where a 'Dancing with the Stars' mentality of learning to dance being
the acquisition of visible dance patterns flourishes. The driving
force is economic. Tango is a commodity to sell and the Argentine
instructors sell nuevo and fantasia step patterns because there is a
market of consumers with dollars (or euros or pounds or yen) in their
hands willing to pay for something that fits cultural expectations.
Cultural validity of the product is irrelevant in a marketplace where
consumers are largely ignorant and indifferent regarding accurate
representation of the cultural art form they are acquiring.

Ron





Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:40:13 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Fellow dancer of course.
>

I don't quite understand why you might want to assume responsibility for someone else's dance. But in any case, the fantasia lovers can simply adjust their schedule to meet the requirements on the dance floor. If they want to do fantasia, then they should be limiting it to the early or late times at the milonga when the place is spacious. It's incorrect for them to assume that they should be free to dance to fantasia whenever they feel like it, such as during the most crowded times on the dance floor. Tango is a social dance, and social means having to consider other people.

If fantasia-lovers are messing up the dance floor, then, as a fellow dancer, tell the promoter and have him/her deal with it. Or you can choose to tell the dancers yourself. The latter isn't as problematic as it may sound.

Trini de Pittsburgh









Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 23:29:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:

Cultural validity of the product is irrelevant in a marketplace where consumers are largely ignorant and indifferent regarding accurate representation of the cultural art form they are acquiring.

Ron

Sean here,

I suspect I could be labled an avid tango consumer. Yet I have to admit that I've never gone shopping for a "cultural art form". Maybe the largely ignorant consumers are smarter than you think. They buy what they like, not what you want them to like. (Or need tham to like to improve your market share?)

Very few American tango dancers are likely to become Porten~os. Tango in the US is not and never will be the same as tango in Bs. As. But at least one thing is probably similar. I suspect thare are as few Porten~os as there are N. Americans trying to buy a "cultural art form".

I dance a rhythmic close embrace style of tango to golden age music because I like it; not because I need some form of 3rd party "authenticity" validation. I have friends (I think?) who dance nuevo to all sorts of wierd alternative music, because they like it. I don't tell them what clothes to wear, what food to eat, or what car to drive. Why would I tell them what style to dance? If someone is rude or interferes with other dancers, whether through poor navigation (or by preaching authenticity ;) I might intervene and ask them to be more considerate of their fellows. But I'm not going to try and impose my preferences on them.

Sean

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/










Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:53:47 +0800
From: "Clif Davis" <clif@clifdavis.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo

Perhaps if one is in a bar, drinking an adult beverage, (or not), talking with others, maybe they are also drinking an adult beverage, maybe not, and music that appears to be tango oriented, and one finds someone who feels the same way, then perhaps, just perhaps, that is cultural validity enough. It's a bar dance, meant to be danced by people in bars who want to share a moment in the lost world of music and dance. No rules, no judgments, just music and dancing. What steps are done, who knows, who cares. I have often been asked, "what was that step you did back there..".. all I can say is I have no idea. I just do what I feel and let my heart guide my feet to do what my ears hear. It's a bar dance.... meant to be danced in bars, or the street or where ever the feeling hits to consenting people.

Clif, the simpleton.

-----Original Message-----



From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:29 PM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:

Cultural validity of the product is irrelevant in a marketplace where consumers are largely ignorant and indifferent regarding accurate representation of the cultural art form they are acquiring.

Ron

Sean here,

I suspect I could be labled an avid tango consumer. Yet I have to admit that I've never gone shopping for a "cultural art form". Maybe the largely ignorant consumers are smarter than you think. They buy what they like, not what you want them to like. (Or need tham to like to improve your market share?)

Very few American tango dancers are likely to become Porten~os. Tango in the US is not and never will be the same as tango in Bs. As. But at least one thing is probably similar. I suspect thare are as few Porten~os as there are N. Americans trying to buy a "cultural art form".

I dance a rhythmic close embrace style of tango to golden age music because I like it; not because I need some form of 3rd party "authenticity" validation. I have friends (I think?) who dance nuevo to all sorts of wierd alternative music, because they like it. I don't tell them what clothes to wear, what food to eat, or what car to drive. Why would I tell them what style to dance? If someone is rude or interferes with other dancers, whether through poor navigation (or by preaching authenticity ;) I might intervene and ask them to be more considerate of their fellows. But I'm not going to try and impose my preferences on them.

Sean

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/












Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 02:26:34 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo

Trini, here. It appears to me that underlying the acceptance of certain forms of tango is this feeling that people are too stupid or lazy to want to do better forms of tango. No rules or judgements. I don't believe that. I believe that if people are informed, then they can make decisions that are right for them. However, it would be wrong to also tell them "hey, that's good tango" when it isn't. I also believe that people are able to put a value on their time and their hobbies and that they can be somewhat realistic about their dance if they are informed.

I feel sorry for those who are mislead. Because they are not really given a choice and they are automatically limited by others in the level of dancing they can reach. It's being given A CHOICE that's important. Leaving people ignorant is not giving them a choice.

When I'm dealing with a "problem" person, in some way I convey to them that I'd love for them to surprise me or prove me wrong. Sometimes they do to their delight, as well as, mine.

Trini de Pittsburgh









Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 04:55:06 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
To: tango-L@mit.edu


--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:

The tango instructors from Argentina teaching in the US represent the sampling error in teaching primarily nuevo and fantasia, explicitly or

> implicitly represented as social tango, which it is not in Buenos
> Aires. ... The driving force is economic. Tango is a commodity to sell and the Argentine instructors sell nuevo and fantasia step patterns because
> there is a market of consumers with dollars (or euros or pounds or
> yen) in their hands willing to pay for something that fits cultural
> expectations.
>
> Ron


I think you're correct, Ron. My experience in working with salon teachers new to our community is that they tend to offer workshops with nuevo elements. They seem a bit surprised when I eschew the nuevo classes for more basic steps or more technique-oriented classes. And they seem quite happy about it. The young American teachers on the circuit tend to make that same assumption, too, though I suspect that is mostly friends asking friends to teach. I wish these elegant salon teachers would have more faith in the style that they do.

Trini de Pittsburgh














Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 12:27:52 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo

i tend to agree with Clif, but (and I don' think he is saying this) it
doesn't mean anything goes. I danced with a young man last night who
prides himself on "never having a lesson in my life. I just do what I
feel." Not only does that mean a truly awful dance, it is also
insulting. I put work into dancing well (or as well as I can), because
I want my partner to enjoy the dance as much as I expect to. There is
a grammar to tango - conventions, principles, etc. - if you don't
bother to learn it, you are saying that it's not worth it to you to
learn the "language" I am using, because it's about you "doing what you
feel" and not about sharing the experience with me. On the other
hand, grammar alone does not make a language...., I have had partners
who string together all kinds of tricks and kicks - while it can be fun
and sometimes that's what I want to do - it can be tough to make that
"tango connection" when you're launching ganchos galore, wrapping your
leg around my waist (or vice versa), etc....... Without at least the
attempt to create that sought-after connection, it just isn't tango. I
am not saying that these things should never be done, just that they
work best added judiciously to a warm embrace, a confident walk, and
musicality - which are the three things I associate with tango of any
variety, and the only three things I actually do expect from
a partner
(lead or follow).

barbra

Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks!


-----Original Message-----



From: Clif Davis <clif@clifdavis.com>
Sent: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 2:53 am
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo










Perhaps if one is in a bar, drinking an adult beverage, (or not),
talking with
others, maybe they are also drinking an adult beverage, maybe not, and
music
that appears to be tango oriented, and one finds someone who feels the
same way,
then perhaps, just perhaps, that is cultural validity enough. It's a
bar dance,
meant to be danced by people in bars who want to share a moment in the
lost
world of music and dance. No rules, no judgments, just music and
dancing. What
steps are done, who knows, who cares. I have often been asked, "what
was that
step you did back there..".. all I can say is I have no idea. I just do
what I
feel and let my heart guide my feet to do what my ears hear. It's a bar
dance.... meant to be danced in bars, or the street or where ever the
feeling
hits to consent
ing people.

Clif, the simpleton.

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On
Behalf Of
Trini y Sean (PATangoS)



Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:29 PM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Tango Society of Central Illinois
<tango.society@gmail.com>
wrote:

Cultural validity of the product is irrelevant in a marketplace where
consumers
are largely ignorant and indifferent regarding accurate representation
of the
cultural art form they are acquiring.

Ron

Sean here,

I suspect I could be labled an avid tango consumer. Yet I have to admit
that
I've never gone shopping for a "cultural art form". Maybe the largely
ignorant
consumers are smarter than you think. They buy what they like, not what
you want
them to like. (Or need tham to like to improve your market share?)

Very few American tango dancers are likely to become Porten~os. Tango
in the US
is not and never will be the same as tango in Bs. As. But at least one
thing is
probably similar. I suspect thare are as few Porten~os as there are N.
Americans
trying to buy a "cultural art form".

I dance a rhythmic close embrace style of tango to golden age music
because I
like it; not because I need some form of 3rd party "authenticity"
validation. I
have friends (I think?) who dance nuevo to all s
orts of wierd
alternative music,
because they like it. I don't tell them what clothes to wear, what food
to eat,
or what car to drive. Why would I tell them what style to dance? If
someone is
rude or interferes with other dancers, whether through poor navigation
(or by
preaching authenticity ;) I might intervene and ask them to be more
considerate
of their fellows. But I'm not going to try and impose my preferences on
them.

Sean

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make
Argentine
Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
http://patangos.home.comcast.net/



















Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:18:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BZkS4FWiSk
Oscar Casas teaching ganchos and leg wraps?
I cringed as I opened the video but was pleasantly suprised
by a more?integrated dance-like approach to the fare.
I particularly liked the single axis turn (29sec. in) that
wasn't even mentioned and the fact that the movements
seem more organic in that they are growing out of the dance.
Anyway, I see it that the Nuevo craze is pushing the
milongueros to stretch their envelope a little and that is not
a bad thing.? I hate ganchos but the rest looks like it could work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BZkS4FWiSk







Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:55:47 -0600
From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BZkS4FWiSk
> Oscar Casas teaching ganchos and leg wraps?

Hi Mario -

As has been amply explained, this stuff is NOT tango. I believe that
videos like this should be posted on nuevo-l.

:-)

Joe





Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 09:45:42 +0800
From: "Clif Davis" <clif@clifdavis.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

" As has been amply explained, this stuff is NOT tango. I believe that
videos like this should be posted on nuevo-l."

The Elite have spoken, and thus, it is so.
Clif






Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 03:14:53 GMT
From: "larrynla@juno.com" <larrynla@juno.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Mario wrote -----> Oscar Casas teaching ganchos and leg wraps?

Joe Grohens wrote -----> As has been amply explained, this stuff is NOT
tango. I believe that videos like this should be posted on nuevo-l.

Au contraire. Almost all of the nuevo tango moves were invented by the
milongueros long ago. Look at some of the old black-and-white videos
on the Web. You'll see lots of volcadas, for instance, invented before
the oldest nuevo dancers were even born. The only supposdedly nuevo
movement that I believe is new is the colgada, and that's simply a
parada out of an ocho that lets the half turn continue into three-
quarter, full, or even into several turns.

The sacada and boleo are very old movements. They were around at least
in the 1940s, because one of the TodoTango.com interviews with a
contemporary of Porteleo (Carlos Alberto Estevez) mentions that he was
famous for working out how to add them to giros.

You'll also see some movements that no one today has copied, even nuevo
or show dancers. El Cachafaz and Rodolfo Cieri, for instance, can be
seen in the following videos lifting their left legs and seemingly
kicking their partners on her butt!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yv9V-3APpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhQOp9is5ik

You will also see some of the famous milongueros breaking the rules
that many consider correct. For instance, Petroleo was known for
getting so excited by the music that he raced around the floor on his
toes, dragging his poor partner along beside him rather than keeping
her in front. (That was partly the fault of the partner, who should
have leaned into him more.)

Only recently have tango performances been done by trained professional
dancers. Before them shows were done by the milongueros and their
partners. Virulazo (Jorge Mart?n Orcaizaguirre) in a TodoTango
interview told about being a pro in tango shows in the 1950s. Pepito
Avellaneda (Jos? Domingo Monteleone) in another TodoTango interview
tells a similar story about a later time, when he becoming so popular
that people from Europe would pay his travel expenses and his fee to
have him perform and teach.

http://www.todotango.com/english/creadores/virulazo.asp
http://www.todotango.com/english/creadores/pavellaneda.asp

In shows the milongueros put their partners at a distance so they could
do and lead fancy moves. And they did fancy moves they would not do,
nor let anyone else do, on a social dance floor. As is true of ?
thoughtful ? nuevo tango dancers.


Larry de Los Angeles



Domain Registration - Click Here
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/PnY6rbuwwbDTJtAkMfn4ULB6ngqeS3lhUFVWkIUzjCnRKc6ifk5ea/






Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:05:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Larry,

I've had at least 2 instructors teach me the 'butt kick', both times for Milonga.
One of them even included a lady's 'butt kick' in response to the man's.

Jack



> From: "larrynla@juno.com" <larrynla@juno.com>
>
> You'll also see some movements that no one today has copied, even nuevo
> or show dancers.? El Cachafaz and Rodolfo Cieri, for instance, can be
> seen in the following videos lifting their left legs and seemingly
> kicking their partners on her butt!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yv9V-3APpc
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhQOp9is5ik
>











Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 05:11:38 -0500
From: "Sergey Kazachenko" <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
To: "Jack Dylan" <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<ebb7980c0812080211r3c0bbdbcqa08f696ec03d06d3@mail.gmail.com>

What's the Spanish name for the 'butt kick' move?

Sergey





Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:33:44 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
To: "'Sergey Kazachenko'" <syarzhuk@gmail.com>, "'Jack Dylan'"
<jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

patear el culo?

-----Original Message-----



Sent: Monday, 8 December 2008 9:12 PM
To: Jack Dylan
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?

What's the Spanish name for the 'butt kick' move?

Sergey




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