4773 " same sex couple dancing in a milonga"
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:03:51 -0500
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] " same sex couple dancing in a milonga"
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"Do you agree?
Do you mind seeing it?
Do you permit it (if you are a milonga organizer)?
Are you doing it?
Nik"
Nope, don't mind it at all. Personally, only women I don't mind dancing with
are the teachers because the non-teachers overcompensate too much. I.e.,
throwing their partners into the cross as opposed to leading, that sort of
thing. It feels odd when you dance with someone who's physically smaller
than a man yet leads more aggressively than a man. I have to admit that
there was a woman I espied at a milonga a long while ago who I would have
loved to dance with for she leads like a man, not like a woman trying to
lead like one.
I don't mind witnessing it at all and if I were an organizer, I would
certainly permit it. But then again, I come from a rather liberally-minded
city. MIght be a completely different story elsewhere.
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:56:08 +0200
From: tango@dal.gr
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] same sex couple dancing in a milonga
To: tango-l@mit.edu
My initial thought was to see what others think about it in respect with
"keeping the the tango traditions" or "the meaning of the dance", and
not about the liberate-level of the different cities/countries.
I witnessed an incident here, when I saw a couple of 2 women dancing (mainly
because there were fewer men in this milonga) and the milonga organizers force
them to stop, because they think that in that way they respect the tango
traditions and the meaning of the dance and they don't permit anything else in
their milonga!
Nik
Quoting tango@dal.gr:
> Hello all,
>
> What do you think about a couple of the same sex, dancing in a milonga?
>
> I don't mean they have to be gays, but just for fun, or to communicate, or to
> express themselves or because sometimes they are not asked for dancing by
> others (especially in women-crowded milongas) or for any other reason.
>
> Do you agree?
> Do you mind seeing it?
> Do you permit it (if you are a milonga organizer)?
> Are you doing it?
>
> Nik
>
>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:39:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] same sex couple dancing in a milonga
You betcha. I'm leading other women - a lot. I'm
following other women - some. I'm leading men -
occasionally. I'm following men - quite a bit. No
big deal; no problem.
I think I know what Caroline means about some women
having a characteristic shared style. I think of it
as sort of tensed and resolute - like someone
determined to do something that is at the edge of
their ability. I have always attributed it to the
peculiar circumstances under which women learn to
lead: they are usually already quite experienced tango
dancers when they start leading, so they understand
the music; they can find the beat; they have a clue
about navigation; they have a refined concept of
vocabulary; they have a desire to express the music
and themselves. But none of those make you able to
lead another person. So in the beginning they are
trying to do something complex with advanced tools but
without basic tools. This is very different from the
experience of men who start out leading and who
struggle from the beginning with all aspects of the
dance.
In addition, most women who lead are not much larger
or much stronger than their female partners. Even
though when both partners are expert there is not a
lot of force involved with the lead, when either of
the partners is a less experienced dancer, more or
less force does come into the equation. And the
bottom line is that most men are stronger than most
women, especially in the upper body, if you match them
by height, weight, or any other reasonable physical
quality. I have found that the men who have told me
"you don't need strength to do this" are in fact so
much stronger than I am that they really don't think
they are exerting much force when they are
accomplishing work that would cost me considerable
effort. You are just plain better off if your partner
is suddenly off her axis if you could catch her if she
fell. So I think some of the "female leader" look is
about consciously applying a lot of energy and effort
to a task that many men could do with less effort (but
exerting the same amount of energy, of course).
The final thing I think influences the performance of
the female leader (in contrast to the male) is
training and time spent on the floor. Experienced
women like the ones I described above move straight
>from zero to leading material that most guys do not
lead for months or years. The result, even when it
works, is often a tension and lack of ease that comes
>from not having done the moves thousands of times.
Navigation, too, is learned on the floor, and I see
many women who appear to be giving more frantic
attention to navigation than is common with guys who
are leading the same sorts of material. In my
experience, all these problems smooth out if the women
spend enough time actually dancing - not a surprise.
Marisa
--- tango@dal.gr wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> What do you think about a couple of the same sex,
> dancing in a milonga?
>
> I don't mean they have to be gays, but just for fun,
> or to communicate, or to
> express themselves or because sometimes they are not
> asked for dancing by
> others (especially in women-crowded milongas) or for
> any other reason.
>
> Do you agree?
> Do you mind seeing it?
> Do you permit it (if you are a milonga organizer)?
> Are you doing it?
>
> Nik
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:45:57 -0600
From: "Bibi Wong" <bibibwong@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] same sex couple dancing in a milonga
To: Tango-L@MIT.EDU
Nik
>Do you agree?
Yes. Putting fun aside, technically speaking, a different perspective
enhance the person's original dance role and speed up the skill of his/her
new role. But it will not replace certain feeling in dancing with the
opposite gender.
>Do you mind seeing it?
No. In fact, in milongas where female out numbers male (which is mostly the
case worldwide), it is a sign of relief because the female followers are
less likely to warm their seats otherwise, that is assuming they don't enjoy
warming their seats while paying the same entrance price.
>Do you permit it (if you are a milonga organizer)?
- -
>Are you doing it?
For a while, as a beginner. Ran out of time to hone the craft, and tired of
fighting warnings given to me that if I do so, the pride of men will cause
fewer men inviting me to dance (as a follower) in the traditional milongas.
With due respect to all my male tango friends, let's face it: it is a basic
animal instinct, the member of the priviledged group (e.g. previous few male
leader in an ocean of female follower) will unlikely wish to see his/her
priviledged being challenged.
Happy feet to all
Bibi
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:57:04 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] same sex couple dancing in a milonga
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Nik,
Tell those organizers that dancing man-man and woman-woman is a part of
tango dancing tradition. In the past it was often that they danced together.
It was widely practiced. It is part of any dancing tradition not just tango.
Only mostly they did it if there was luck of partners for them.
Why otherwise, indeed?
Literature ( of old times ) is full with descriptions when men danced
together in army, in gold mining camps, even in jails ! Women danced where
there was no or few men around, or nobody invited them. It was absolutely
normal.
Questions were raised only if they danced consistently with each other. But
that was very very rare.
Besides, any advanced dancers should know both parts, so they should
practiced it somewhere, shouldn't they?
Igor.
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:21:09 -0600
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] same sex couple dancing in a milonga
If I stopped leading in milongas, the women would be furious with me! Women
often whisper
to me after a dance "you're one of the best leaders in town - don't tell the
guys I said
that!"
What is wrong with us?!?! This is out-and-out prejudice. Why is so hard to
believe
that a woman can lead well? We're allowed to drive cars, motorcycles, and
even carry our
own groceries these days. Of course I am one of the best leaders in town -
I've been
teaching for 10 years! How could I expect people to come to me for lessons
if I can't
lead well? For some reason women go to male teachers who can't follow, but
no female
teacher could get away with that!
Do I lead differently from men? Maybe. Every woman comes into my embrace
with a certain
prejudice, some more than others, that I have to overcome. I have to be a
little more
technically proficient - I cannot force a woman through sheer strength (even
if I wanted
to!) Have I had some great dances lead by women? Absolutely!
I was once asked to lead at a milonga in BsAs, when there were too few guys.
By a portena
(otherwise I would have declined). One old drunk guy yelled at us, saying
"I don't like
that!" My portena partner had a few choice words for him!
My next class venture will be "Gender Neutral Dancing". I'm working on the
marketing
concept - if anyone has any ideas, let me know!
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
www.mndance.com
Quoting Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com
<https://www.donnay.net:2082/horde/imp/message.php?index 2> >:
Besides, any advanced dancers should know both parts, so they should
practiced it somewhere, shouldn't they?
