6164  Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!

ARTICLE INDEX


Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:09:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Pablo Rodriguez & Noelia Hurtado show in Zagreb
Ok..this is a different Rodriguez...very different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClugH5aEvUM
wow, I don't know where to begin...the music is traditional.
The moves are traditional too...but the posture! and execution!
the embrace is great, imo. but the? shoulders and torsos are doing
stuff that I was taught NOT to do in both traditional and Nuevo..
then again, look at the results..a serpentine connection that is out of
this world...does that make it fantasy??
The guy is superb...does he have a youthfull mental?computer that
dissects all of the co ordinates before they arrive?...he is amazing!
The woman..another youthful phenomena, wow!... look at the kicks
I wouldn't want to be near that rotating shredder but how does she do it?
This couple is to be noted..they are something else..I personally hope that
this doesn't catch on...I couldn't do it and I wouldn't want to be on a social
dancefloor where it is danced..but gee one can't help but be amazed!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClugH5aEvUM







Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:26:58 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
To: tango-l@mit.edu

My, Mario, you are too easily impressed. His arm thing is something I'd attribute to personal style. It's a shame when young people sacrifice elegance for the sake of steps, which is what this couple is doing. The head positions are terrible, and it wouldn't take much to fix it. A talented couple, but not one I'd care to have as a role model for my community. Perhaps in Zagreb they don't have many options.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- On Tue, 11/18/08, Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Pablo Rodriguez & Noelia Hurtado show in Zagreb
> Ok..this is a different Rodriguez...very different.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClugH5aEvUM
> wow, I don't know where to begin...the music is
> traditional. The moves are traditional too...but the posture! and
> execution! the embrace is great, imo. but the? shoulders and torsos
> are doing stuff that I was taught NOT to do in both traditional and
> Nuevo.. then again, look at the results..a serpentine connection
> that is out of this world...does that make it fantasy??










Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:31:07 -0500
From: "Sorin Varzaru" <tango@bostonphotographs.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
<bc7e48270811181531u1b07dbe5l810b91e2e3dceb03@mail.gmail.com>

Of course, elegance, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally
find them elegant, and I find many of the dancers who are reputed to be
elegant looking stiff. So, it's all a matter of personal preference and
style.

Trini, I find your tone condescending.

Sorin
my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com
blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
email: sorin@bostonphotographs.com


On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com

> wrote:

> My, Mario, you are too easily impressed. His arm thing is something I'd
> attribute to personal style. It's a shame when young people sacrifice
> elegance for the sake of steps, which is what this couple is doing. The
> head positions are terrible, and it wouldn't take much to fix it. A
> talented couple, but not one I'd care to have as a role model for my
> community. Perhaps in Zagreb they don't have many options.
>
>





Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:03:51 -0600
From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>


Trini texted:

> It's a shame when young people sacrifice elegance for the sake of
steps, which is what this couple is doing.

Sorin scribet:

> Of course, elegance, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, I guess elegance is in the eye of the beholder. Like when a man
wears a polyester leisure suit with the shirt color open over his
jacket collar - that might be "sport elegante" for some.

But even allowing for taste, I think that there are probably some
common principles of elegance in tango dancing. Otherwise, why would
people use the word?

I would suggest that elegance in tango dancing implies

. Upright posture - not stooping or looking at the floor
. Graceful movement, flowing - not jerky or rough
. Composure, dignity - not falling or stumbling or losing control

Fred Astair is elegant. Fred Flintstone is not.

Elegance seems to be one of the traditional values of Argentine tango
dancers. I tend to agree with Trini's comment, and feel that elegance
is not a privileged value among many of younger dancers. Has anyone
ever heard Chicho, or Fabian Salas, or Pablo Inza, or Sebastian Arce
talk about the importance of "elegance"? Or heard them say anything
like "no matter what, don't ever sacrifice your elegance to achieve a
move"?

...

As for Pablo Rodriguez's left arm - if that's the one we are talking
about - clearly this is a fad, and not a personal idiosyncracy. It's
one of those abrazo viruses spreading everywhere. I suspect that it's
more than imitation and people are actually teaching it. Cherie Magnus
called it "hand on a plate" in her blog (http://tinyurl.com/564rs5).

It produces a hand position that is, in my opinion, aesthetically
disagreeable. I think it is a weak line for the man. For the woman it
looks fine. It may score points in mechanics but not in beauty (IMO).

....

BTW - I agree that Pablo & Noelia are wonderful dancers.






Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:23:20 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <antonst@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
<00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF7A0@stancosbs1.stanco.local>



I guess most people would agree with Sorin, that good tango is in the
eyes of the beholder. But I can't agree. No more than good wine is in
the taste buds of the beholder. In my opinion, it's got nothing to do
with which I prefer. I might have a penchant for crappy wine and cheap
fish and chips. Doesn't make it good cuisine. From my limited
experience, tango seems to increasingly lack a clear identity and a
corresponding benchmark for assessment. I'm incredulous at the enormous
variation of opinion on core matters, emanating from this list. A list
which I suspect, harbors the intelligencia of Tango. Maybe I'll
eventually come around to accepting the mantra "I think it. I believe
it. It is so."

Anton



-----Original Message-----



Sent: Wednesday, 19 November 2008 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!


Of course, elegance, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I
personally find them elegant, and I find many of the dancers who are
reputed to be elegant looking stiff. So, it's all a matter of personal
preference and style.

Trini, I find your tone condescending.

Sorin
my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com
blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
email: sorin@bostonphotographs.com






Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:10:22 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Anton Stanley wrote:

>
> I guess most people would agree with Sorin, that good tango is in the
> eyes of the beholder. But I can't agree. No more than good wine is in
> the taste buds of the beholder. In my opinion, it's got nothing to do
> with which I prefer. I might have a penchant for crappy wine and cheap
> fish and chips. Doesn't make it good cuisine. From my limited
> experience, tango seems to increasingly lack a clear identity and a
> corresponding benchmark for assessment.

If you want benchmarks for assessment, go do International Ballroom!
They've got plenty.

Argentine Tango is a social dance, with no ruling body to define and
control it. As such, it is free to adapt to changing preferences of the
people who dance it. There will always be variation and disagreement, as
any perusal of the discussions about styles shows. There have always
been such differences, there will always be such differences.

Consider that your experience of an "increasing lack of identity" may
simply be due to a wider experience of the existing variation and
discussion that is out there.

> I'm incredulous at the enormous
> variation of opinion on core matters, emanating from this list. A list
> which I suspect, harbors the intelligencia of Tango.

Don't overrate this list. It's a microcosm of the Tango world

Myk
in Canberra





Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:52:59 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <antonst@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
<00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF7A5@stancosbs1.stanco.local>

Myk I understand your point in the below comment.
But please guide me to someone who can improve my tango dancing. And why
their method of defining tango would be any clearer than yours.


Anton


"If you want benchmarks for assessment, go do International Ballroom!
They've got plenty.

Argentine Tango is a social dance, with no ruling body to define and
control it. As such, it is free to adapt to changing preferences of the
people who dance it."








Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:47:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!

--- On Wed, 11/19/08, Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com> wrote:

Argentine Tango is a social dance, with no ruling body to define and
control it. As such, it is free to adapt to changing preferences of the
people who dance it.

-----

That?s an excuse, not a reason. There?s a difference. Good posture is Tango 101. If there is some physical defect that makes it impossible for them to hold their heads and shoulders up, then that would be a reason. It wouldn?t make the presentation any more elegant, but it mitigates the outcome of the performance.

I do hold couples doing a FORMAL PRESENTATION to a higher level of tango than I would for others simply dancing at a milonga. Presentations should be measured by their OUTCOME, not their output. Read Mario?s post again. His first reaction is along the lines of ?What the h??? This is outcome. This presentation failed in that regard. It also failed with me. Think of demos as a job interview. You wouldn?t dress in sweats because it would detract from your message. Same thing here, only the poor posture is what is detracting from the message of the artists.

Presentations can leave a significant impression on its audience, particularly beginners. As a long-time organizer I?m aware of the impact they can have weeks, months, or even years down the road. I believe that organizers have a responsibility to present tango in a good way, not just anyway old way. If there is very little tango in Zagreb and this was a young community, then I can understand why the host was gushing over this couple.

This couple is obviously talented but they would be better served by being told the truth rather than being coddled. If they paid more attention to basics like posture and looking elegant, then this couple would really be something.

Trini de Pittsburgh












Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 05:58:58 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

> --- On Wed, 11/19/08, Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Argentine Tango is a social dance, with no ruling body to define and
>> control it. As such, it is free to adapt to changing preferences of the
>> people who dance it.
>
> -----
>
> That?s an excuse, not a reason. There?s a difference. Good posture
> is Tango 101.
>

Social dances are defined and controlled by the community of people
dancing them. And yes, I agree that posture is a critical element of
Tango, and it's one of the defects in my own dancing that I'm working
hard to fix at the moment.

I'm not recommending Tango Anarchy, just a continuation of the current
state of affairs.

> I do hold couples doing a FORMAL PRESENTATION to a higher level of
> tango than I would for others simply dancing at a milonga.
> Presentations should be measured by their OUTCOME, not their output.
> Read Mario?s post again. His first reaction is along the lines of
> ?What the h??? This is outcome. This presentation failed in that
> regard. It also failed with me.
>

I was replying to Anton's comments, not Mario's. Anton was expressing a
desire for some potent authority to define Tango and make it easier to
assess. I happen to think such a thing would be the death of Tango's
diversity, just as International Ballroom has turned ballroom dancing
into a codified nightmare where taking an unauthorised step will get you
thrown out of a competition. More importantly, where those competitions
are seen to be the purpose of the dance, instead of the enjoyment of the
dancers.

Myk
in Canberra





Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:07:41 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Anton Stanley wrote:

> Myk I understand your point in the below comment.
> But please guide me to someone who can improve my tango dancing.

Find the kind of Tango dancing you want to do. Watch it carefully and
find its defining characteristics. Then talk with teachers about those
characteristics. The ones that talk sensibly about them are likely to be
better teachers than those that can only discuss their own methods for
teaching.

> And why
> their method of defining tango would be any clearer than yours.

I thought you said you understood my point? Didn't I quite carefully
_not_ define Tango? I'm not qualified, and I don't think any single
person or body of people are.

Sure there are a few things that we can all agree are the basic
fundamentals of Tango, but as soon as you get into details, there's a
lot of rich diversity.

Myk
in Canberra







Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:37:46 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!



Certainly an entertaining couple in the 1st half of their performance. I don't know if they were incorporating milonga style into the dance (disagree it was mere steps) or he was trying to seduce her with his bizarre snaky moves. A bit more restrained in the second half I thought.

But what of this formal presentation stuff? Are there not different and older styles of tango that can have bad posture and "funny little steps" compared to salon tango?

I am interested in seeing you dancing with good posture.



-----Original Message-----



From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
Sent: Thursday, 20 November 2008 3:47 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!

>That?s an excuse, not a reason. There?s a difference. Good posture is Tango 101







Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:09:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!


--- On Wed, 11/19/08, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> But what of this formal presentation stuff? Are there not
> different and older styles of tango that can have bad
> posture and "funny little steps" compared to salon
> tango?

I don't know of any, but styles of dancing back then were often influenced by the clothes worn (e.g. long skirts that gathered at the knees). These influences are what I would consider to be natural and evolutionary. But even then, I'm sure that were bad examples as well as good examples.


> I am interested in seeing you dancing with good posture.

You'll have to come to Pittsburgh. I learned early on to lift my head up, courtesy of Susana Miller. In our early workshops together when I would partner her, Susana would whisper harshly to me "Head up!" whenever I looked down to see what she was demonstrating. I learned my lesson well. It's funny because every time she comes to visit, everybody in the community becomes more aware of their posture and head position. Chin up! Eyes forward! Musica, maestro!

Trini de Pittsburgh











Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:27:03 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!



-----Original Message-----



Sent: Thursday, 20 November 2008 8:09 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!


>>Are there not
>> different and older styles of tango that can have bad
>> posture and "funny little steps" compared to salon
>> tango?

>I don't know of any,


Example: Cayengue: meh


>> I am interested in seeing you dancing with good posture.

>You'll have to come to Pittsburgh.

Hard from Canberra to just drop in. But no videos of you on Youtube?

Agree on your other points. My other pet hates: men looking down at where
their feet are going; men scuttling around the dance floor at a million
miles an hour; women who think aggressive ganchos defines the standard of
tango dancer they are. Where is the musicality and connection?







Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:38:12 -0500
From: "David" <dchester@charter.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Trini,



Generally speaking, I tend to like and agree with your posts, but not so
much with this one. I can accept that it's not your cup of tea, as we all
have our personal preferences. IMO, elegance (as you put it) is not the
"end all be all" to a good dance. I actually like it when people try to
create their own style.



David




His arm thing is something I'd attribute to personal style. It's a shame
when young people sacrifice elegance for the sake of steps, which is what
this couple is doing. The head positions are terrible, and it wouldn't take
much to fix it. A talented couple, but not one I'd care to have as a role
model for my community. Perhaps in Zagreb they don't have many options.


















Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:24:31 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

David wrote:

> Trini,
>
>
>
> Generally speaking, I tend to like and agree with your posts, but not so
> much with this one. I can accept that it's not your cup of tea, as we all
> have our personal preferences. IMO, elegance (as you put it) is not the
> "end all be all" to a good dance. I actually like it when people try to
> create their own style.
>

Depends on what you mean by elegance. For me, elegance is the feeling you
get that someone else's movement are natural and effortless (even though
they aren't), not some form of codified "elegance" defined by committee.

In that sense I believe that there are many, many ways to be elegant, and as
a result many, many styles that work. But I don't think a style that isn't
elegent in *some* sense (for at least some people) is actually any good.





Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:02:59 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!

--- On Wed, 11/19/08, David <dchester@charter.net> wrote:

> posts, but not so much with this one. I can accept that it's not your
> cup of tea, as we all have our personal preferences. IMO, elegance (as you put it) is not the "end all be all" to a good dance.


I didn't say that elegance is the "end all be all" of a dance. But it is an important characteristic of tango, as opposed to, say, the chicken dance. And it's important enough that dancers ought to incorporate it into their studies just as much as they do the latest fancy steps.

I also agree with Alexis' comments on elegance. Children on a playground can have a certain elegance as they move freely, swinging on the bars, uninhibited. A cougar hunting it's prey. A bird in flight. Free-moving, and elegant.

Here are some definitions from my dictionary:

Elegant
1. tastefully fine or luxurious in dress, style, design, etc.
2. gracefully refined and dignified
3. nice, choice, or pleasingly superiour in quality or kind
4. excellent, fine, superior,

I would say #2 applies the most regarding tango. However, words are important and they still have a definition. So, while people may describe things differently, things aren't totally in the eye of the beholder. I think what tends to happen is that people don't explore the different shades of meaning that different words can provide.

Also, concerning canyengue, in the videos that I saw, the posture is different but necessarily bad. The man bends at the waist but he still has a straight spine. The woman may have a slight bend due to her left shoulder being raised. That seems to be a function of the steps or possibly height differences. Not being a student of canyengue, though, I can't comment too much more.


Trini de Pittsburgh











Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:05:56 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!

--- On Wed, 11/19/08, David <dchester@charter.net> wrote:

> posts, but not so much with this one. I can accept that it's not your
> cup of tea, as we all have our personal preferences. IMO, elegance (as you put it) is not the "end all be all" to a good dance.


I didn't say that elegance is the "end all be all" of a dance. But it is an important characteristic of tango, as opposed to, say, the chicken dance. And it's important enough that dancers ought to incorporate it into their studies just as much as they do the latest fancy steps.

I also agree with Alexis' comments on elegance. Children on a playground can have a certain elegance as they move freely, swinging on the bars, uninhibited. A cougar hunting it's prey. A bird in flight. Free-moving, and elegant.

Here are some definitions from my dictionary:

Elegant
1. tastefully fine or luxurious in dress, style, design, etc.
2. gracefully refined and dignified
3. nice, choice, or pleasingly superiour in quality or kind
4. excellent, fine, superior,

I would say #2 applies the most regarding tango. However, words are important and they still have a definition. So, while people may describe things differently, things aren't totally in the eye of the beholder. I think what tends to happen is that people don't explore the different shades of meaning that different words can provide.

Also, concerning canyengue, in the videos that I saw, the posture is different but necessarily bad. The man bends at the waist but he still has a straight spine. The woman may have a slight bend due to her left shoulder being raised. That seems to be a function of the steps or possibly height differences. Not being a student of canyengue, though, I can't comment too much more.


Trini de Pittsburgh









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