6265  Shocked

ARTICLE INDEX


Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 01:11:32 +1100
From: Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<22a636ff0902230611x3f74af80i94c645f44ccfe40d@mail.gmail.com>

I hope is OK for me to let my sister Theresia post some thoughts on here?

Klaus

-------------

Klaus showed me posts on here and in emails, and I was surprised,
shocked a little even, to see how unrespectful people were to Damian
(Nougts) - even to making him leave here!. I can tell you he is a
wonderful dancer and so much a teacher. I danced with him in Poland
and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would tell me what I was
doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a social dance and show
me how I should do things, or explain how I should follow. His
floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went round and round but he
used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into corners and
between dancers unexpected. So quick. So you can believe I was shocked
that people were so unkind to someone so helpful.

Tess





Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:19:35 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<13176a380902230619u76ceae5es5b476f430b2bd254@mail.gmail.com>

Theresia:
1) It's considered bad manners to instruct during a milonga.
2) It's even worse to STOP in the middle of a social dance. Have you
considered how rude it is to the line of dance to just stop and create
a traffic jam.
3) He darted in between dancers.You think that's good? Suppose he
crashed into a couple?

I suspect you haven't dance tango long. There's more to tango than
figures. ETIQUETTE is also important.

Michael
Washington, DC

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I hope is OK for me to let my sister Theresia post some thoughts on here?
>
> Klaus
>
> -------------
>
> Klaus showed me posts on here and in emails, and I was surprised,
> shocked a little even, to see how unrespectful people were to Damian
> (Nougts) - even to making him leave here!. I can tell you he is a
> wonderful dancer and so much a teacher. I danced with him in Poland
> and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would tell me what I was
> doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a social dance and show
> me how I should do things, or explain how I should follow. His
> floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went round and round but he
> used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into corners and
> between dancers unexpected. So quick. So you can believe I was shocked
> that people were so unkind to someone so helpful.
>
> Tess
>



--
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango





Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 06:28:08 -0800 (PST)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu



--- Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com> wrote:

> and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would
> tell me what I was
> doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a
> social dance and show
> me how I should do things, or explain how I should
> follow.

Sorry, but in the US and BsAs, that would be
considered extremely rude and cause to leave the
floor.

His

> floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went
> round and round but he
> used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into
> corners and
> between dancers unexpected.

That would be considered quite bad floor craft in the
US and BsAs....at least where I dance.

Nancy











Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:51:09 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: ningle_2000@yahoo.com, tangowien@googlemail.com, tango-l@mit.edu

I agree with the other writers - esp. because he stopped to tell you were doing something wrong. When I am leading - if my partner moves in a way I didn't expect or intend, I just adapt to it and improvise - for me, that's the fun part of leading.? Even if you were at a practica where his behavior might be appropriate, it doesn't sound that this person has a lot to offer.

barbra






-----Original Message-----



Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 9:28 am
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked












--- Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com> wrote:

> and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would
> tell me what I was
> doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a
> social dance and show
> me how I should do things, or explain how I should
> follow.

Sorry, but in the US and BsAs, that would be
considered extremely rude and cause to leave the
floor.

His

> floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went
> round and round but he
> used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into
> corners and
> between dancers unexpected.

That would be considered quite bad floor craft in the
US and BsAs....at least where I dance.

Nancy
















Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:59:37 -0500
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Cc: tangowien@googlemail.com, ningle_2000@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu
<ebb7980c0902230659o6fd446bave391ae5aab5441b7@mail.gmail.com>

It depends on the setting and context. If we are at a practica, and I
know the partner is less skilled, I might ask "Do you want to practice
or just dance?"
If she wants to learn, we move to the center and practice. If just
dance, we will do that, and if she does something wrong, I better have
plan B ready!
Of course, this is totally inappropriate in a milonga, where "just
dance" is the only option.

Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )





Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:23:11 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu

This discussion reminds me of dancing with milongueros in
1997-1998, I do not recall even one time when a man had corrected me
at a milonga, and I had danced only aout 2-3 years then and was a
rank beginner. What they did instead was magic - they lead a step
again and again, until I got it and learned what I needed to
do. There was grace and infinite value in that because they gave me
knowledge of the dance without using any words. And they did not
break the magic of the moment.

To me, there is some distasteful banality to all words, in any
language that I understand. Even poetry can't compare with music and
dance. Only languages that I do not understand have some
music. Maybe the question that each person should ask, when an idea
pops into his/her head to correct someone during a dance, is whether
he/she wants to be right or to be happy. Do we value perfection over
a feeling?

In all human interactions, and in tango in this case, it might be
useful to do a quick cost/benefit analysis in any
situation. Impulsivity carries a very high cost.

All the best,

Nina





At 07:59 AM 2/23/2009, Sergey Kazachenko wrote:

>It depends on the setting and context. If we are at a practica, and I
>know the partner is less skilled, I might ask "Do you want to practice
>or just dance?"
>If she wants to learn, we move to the center and practice. If just
>dance, we will do that, and if she does something wrong, I better have
>plan B ready!
>Of course, this is totally inappropriate in a milonga, where "just
>dance" is the only option.
>
>Sergey
>May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )






Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:00:28 +0100
From: "Peter Turowski" <tangopeter@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: "Klaus Radek" <tangowien@googlemail.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>

Klaus Radek wrote:

> I hope is OK for me to let my sister Theresia post some thoughts on
> here?

Well, if you read the replies to your sarcastic post,
you will see that it is not OK - they took it seriously. =8-0
Maybe smilies could help...

LOL
Peter





Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:45:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked - etiquette

I agree with others about etiquette at milongas entailing not correcting people while dancing. However, it's important to understand why. Tango is an artistic expression, and one cannot express oneself fully if one is also worrying about whether what she is doing is wrong or not. If the habit of teaching or being corrected becomes ingrained at a milonga, then one isn't really dancing. Instead, one is moving in fear and with inhibitions, quite often without even realizing it.

Mistakes are normal. It's okay to make a mistake. If someone keeps correcting a beginner every time he or she makes a mistake, then the offender sends the wrong message. At my milongas, I don't care if the person being corrected wants the correction or not. If I can easily see it happening on the dance floor, I will inform both parties about the rules of etiquette. It's that important for the long-term health of the community.

There was a time when this etiquette was not enforced in my community. Then one day a visiting instructor, Robert Hauk, came here and spent the weekend teaching and dancing with everyone. At the end of the weekend, he told me that every single woman he danced with expected to be corrected after dancing with him, even at the milongas. Unless Theresia want to dance in fear, she should not accept herself to be corrected at a milonga.

Trini de Pittsburgh












Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 01:11:32 +1100
From: Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<22a636ff0902230611x3f74af80i94c645f44ccfe40d@mail.gmail.com>

I hope is OK for me to let my sister Theresia post some thoughts on here?

Klaus

-------------

Klaus showed me posts on here and in emails, and I was surprised,
shocked a little even, to see how unrespectful people were to Damian
(Nougts) - even to making him leave here!. I can tell you he is a
wonderful dancer and so much a teacher. I danced with him in Poland
and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would tell me what I was
doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a social dance and show
me how I should do things, or explain how I should follow. His
floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went round and round but he
used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into corners and
between dancers unexpected. So quick. So you can believe I was shocked
that people were so unkind to someone so helpful.

Tess





Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:19:35 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<13176a380902230619u76ceae5es5b476f430b2bd254@mail.gmail.com>

Theresia:
1) It's considered bad manners to instruct during a milonga.
2) It's even worse to STOP in the middle of a social dance. Have you
considered how rude it is to the line of dance to just stop and create
a traffic jam.
3) He darted in between dancers.You think that's good? Suppose he
crashed into a couple?

I suspect you haven't dance tango long. There's more to tango than
figures. ETIQUETTE is also important.

Michael
Washington, DC

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I hope is OK for me to let my sister Theresia post some thoughts on here?
>
> Klaus
>
> -------------
>
> Klaus showed me posts on here and in emails, and I was surprised,
> shocked a little even, to see how unrespectful people were to Damian
> (Nougts) - even to making him leave here!. I can tell you he is a
> wonderful dancer and so much a teacher. I danced with him in Poland
> and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would tell me what I was
> doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a social dance and show
> me how I should do things, or explain how I should follow. His
> floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went round and round but he
> used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into corners and
> between dancers unexpected. So quick. So you can believe I was shocked
> that people were so unkind to someone so helpful.
>
> Tess
>



--
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango





Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 06:28:08 -0800 (PST)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu



--- Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com> wrote:

> and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would
> tell me what I was
> doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a
> social dance and show
> me how I should do things, or explain how I should
> follow.

Sorry, but in the US and BsAs, that would be
considered extremely rude and cause to leave the
floor.

His

> floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went
> round and round but he
> used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into
> corners and
> between dancers unexpected.

That would be considered quite bad floor craft in the
US and BsAs....at least where I dance.

Nancy











Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:51:09 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: ningle_2000@yahoo.com, tangowien@googlemail.com, tango-l@mit.edu

I agree with the other writers - esp. because he stopped to tell you were doing something wrong. When I am leading - if my partner moves in a way I didn't expect or intend, I just adapt to it and improvise - for me, that's the fun part of leading.? Even if you were at a practica where his behavior might be appropriate, it doesn't sound that this person has a lot to offer.

barbra






-----Original Message-----



Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 9:28 am
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked












--- Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com> wrote:

> and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would
> tell me what I was
> doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a
> social dance and show
> me how I should do things, or explain how I should
> follow.

Sorry, but in the US and BsAs, that would be
considered extremely rude and cause to leave the
floor.

His

> floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went
> round and round but he
> used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into
> corners and
> between dancers unexpected.

That would be considered quite bad floor craft in the
US and BsAs....at least where I dance.

Nancy
















Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:59:37 -0500
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Cc: tangowien@googlemail.com, ningle_2000@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu
<ebb7980c0902230659o6fd446bave391ae5aab5441b7@mail.gmail.com>

It depends on the setting and context. If we are at a practica, and I
know the partner is less skilled, I might ask "Do you want to practice
or just dance?"
If she wants to learn, we move to the center and practice. If just
dance, we will do that, and if she does something wrong, I better have
plan B ready!
Of course, this is totally inappropriate in a milonga, where "just
dance" is the only option.

Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )





Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:23:11 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu

This discussion reminds me of dancing with milongueros in
1997-1998, I do not recall even one time when a man had corrected me
at a milonga, and I had danced only aout 2-3 years then and was a
rank beginner. What they did instead was magic - they lead a step
again and again, until I got it and learned what I needed to
do. There was grace and infinite value in that because they gave me
knowledge of the dance without using any words. And they did not
break the magic of the moment.

To me, there is some distasteful banality to all words, in any
language that I understand. Even poetry can't compare with music and
dance. Only languages that I do not understand have some
music. Maybe the question that each person should ask, when an idea
pops into his/her head to correct someone during a dance, is whether
he/she wants to be right or to be happy. Do we value perfection over
a feeling?

In all human interactions, and in tango in this case, it might be
useful to do a quick cost/benefit analysis in any
situation. Impulsivity carries a very high cost.

All the best,

Nina





At 07:59 AM 2/23/2009, Sergey Kazachenko wrote:

>It depends on the setting and context. If we are at a practica, and I
>know the partner is less skilled, I might ask "Do you want to practice
>or just dance?"
>If she wants to learn, we move to the center and practice. If just
>dance, we will do that, and if she does something wrong, I better have
>plan B ready!
>Of course, this is totally inappropriate in a milonga, where "just
>dance" is the only option.
>
>Sergey
>May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )






Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:00:28 +0100
From: "Peter Turowski" <tangopeter@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: "Klaus Radek" <tangowien@googlemail.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>

Klaus Radek wrote:

> I hope is OK for me to let my sister Theresia post some thoughts on
> here?

Well, if you read the replies to your sarcastic post,
you will see that it is not OK - they took it seriously. =8-0
Maybe smilies could help...

LOL
Peter





Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:45:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked - etiquette

I agree with others about etiquette at milongas entailing not correcting people while dancing. However, it's important to understand why. Tango is an artistic expression, and one cannot express oneself fully if one is also worrying about whether what she is doing is wrong or not. If the habit of teaching or being corrected becomes ingrained at a milonga, then one isn't really dancing. Instead, one is moving in fear and with inhibitions, quite often without even realizing it.

Mistakes are normal. It's okay to make a mistake. If someone keeps correcting a beginner every time he or she makes a mistake, then the offender sends the wrong message. At my milongas, I don't care if the person being corrected wants the correction or not. If I can easily see it happening on the dance floor, I will inform both parties about the rules of etiquette. It's that important for the long-term health of the community.

There was a time when this etiquette was not enforced in my community. Then one day a visiting instructor, Robert Hauk, came here and spent the weekend teaching and dancing with everyone. At the end of the weekend, he told me that every single woman he danced with expected to be corrected after dancing with him, even at the milongas. Unless Theresia want to dance in fear, she should not accept herself to be corrected at a milonga.

Trini de Pittsburgh












Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:59:21 GMT
From: "larrynla@juno.com" <larrynla@juno.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Uh, guys, Klaus is joking. His "sister's post" is a fake.

Larry de Los Angeles


30 Seconds can save a lifetime. Get it done. Its never been easier.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsO5FvDuG0cakk2Ttq8W56Pxa2ICxH7FKgH43H8mGP8jRQH7s7OuNC/






Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:41:03 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: larrynla@juno.com, tango-L@mit.edu





I think the reason so many women so easily accepted the e-mail as true and serious, is because this behavior has truly and seriously been experienced at one level or another by all of us.


-----Original Message-----



Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:59 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked










Uh, guys, Klaus is joking. His "sister's post" is a fake.

Larry de Los Angeles


30 Seconds can save a lifetime. Get it done. Its never been easier.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsO5FvDuG0cakk2Ttq8W56Pxa2ICxH7FKgH43H8mGP8jRQH7s7OuNC/











Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:07:22 -0800 (PST)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: buffmilonguera@aol.com, larrynla@juno.com, tango-L@mit.edu


And the original poster has not recalled the item as a
joke. I am still waiting. I guess the next time I see
something ridiculous, I will be mean and
sarcastic.....oh, wait..... that would be all the
time, right?

Nancy

--- buffmilonguera@aol.com wrote:

>
>
>
>
> I think the reason so many women so easily accepted
> the e-mail as true and serious, is because this
> behavior has truly and seriously been experienced at
> one level or another by all of us.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larrynla@juno.com <larrynla@juno.com>
> To: tango-L@mit.edu
> Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:59 pm
> Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Uh, guys, Klaus is joking. His "sister's post" is a
> fake.
>
> Larry de Los Angeles
>
>
>
> 30 Seconds can save a lifetime. Get it done. Its
> never been easier.
>

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsO5FvDuG0cakk2Ttq8W56Pxa2ICxH7FKgH43H8mGP8jRQH7s7OuNC/

>
>
>
>
>
>
>









Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:18:19 -0500
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: <larrynla@juno.com>, <tango-L@mit.edu>, <buffmilonguera@aol.com>

Not only women easily accepted it? I believed it as well.

The moderator should the originator and "his sister" off the list.
Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message -----



Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

I think the reason so many women so easily accepted the e-mail as true and serious, is because this behavior has truly and seriously been experienced at one level or another by all of us.


-----Original Message-----



Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:59 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
Uh, guys, Klaus is joking. His "sister's post" is a fake.

Larry de Los Angeles






Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:17:55 +1100
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Cc: "<buffmilonguera@aol.com>" <buffmilonguera@aol.com>,
"<larrynla@juno.com>" <larrynla@juno.com>, "<tango-L@mit.edu>"
<tango-l@mit.edu>

I most certainly do NOT offer feedback or advice whilst social dancing
except compliments or in rare extreme circumstances. Klaus is joking.

In fact it's quite the opposite, teachers are often asked for feedback
while dancing and that becomes wearing and I remember to not ask those
partners again for some time...

Food for thought.

Sent from my iPhone

On 24/02/2009, at 11:18 AM, "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:

> Not only women easily accepted it? I believed it as well.
>
> The moderator should the originator and "his sister" off the list.
> Michael
> I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <buffmilonguera@aol.com>
> To: <larrynla@juno.com>; <tango-L@mit.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
>
> I think the reason so many women so easily accepted the e-mail as
> true and serious, is because this behavior has truly and seriously
> been experienced at one level or another by all of us.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larrynla@juno.com <larrynla@juno.com>
> To: tango-L@mit.edu
> Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:59 pm
> Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
> Uh, guys, Klaus is joking. His "sister's post" is a fake.
>
> Larry de Los Angeles
>





Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:18:57 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ecf43f370902231718q20c96421i7f4d5c3e36f7e856@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:

> Not only women easily accepted it? I believed it as well.
>
> The moderator should the originator and "his sister" off the list.

It appeared to me to be a classic troll just meant to stir up
the hive for the troller's perverted amusement.

Taking "them" off the list would probably be useless, no doubt
the email id is fake in the first place. But might as well do it
anyway, I suppose.

Huck





Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:27:07 +1100
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Cc: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>

What is really very annoying actually and my students would confirm
this (not that this world can prove or disprove) is that in MY
classes, followers are the only ones allowed to offer feedback MOST of
the time with an "I feel..." type model.

This has been incredibly successful with both leaders and followers as
I basically, no I DO tell leaders to leave their ego outside.

About time you all moved off me to an actual topic - thanks for the
heads up those that told me. :(

Sent from my iPhone

On 24/02/2009, at 12:18 PM, Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
> wrote:
>> Not only women easily accepted it? I believed it as well.
>>
>> The moderator should the originator and "his sister" off the list.
>
> It appeared to me to be a classic troll just meant to stir up
> the hive for the troller's perverted amusement.
>
> Taking "them" off the list would probably be useless, no doubt
> the email id is fake in the first place. But might as well do it
> anyway, I suppose.
>
> Huck





Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:54:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Iron Logic <railogic@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu, Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>

?
Dear Huck and?Michael, do we really have to take life so seriously :). May be if you were in 'tango trance' you would'v spotted the "troll' right there:)). May be this?'seriousness' has a blinding effect, it closes some of our eyes ..hmm...
wonder what is the basis for banning.
Cheers, IL
?
?
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com> wrote:



From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu



Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 03:03:09 GMT
From: "larrynla@juno.com" <larrynla@juno.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Whether it was a joke or not, Klaus did introduce a good point - and stimulated some thoughtful responses.

Sometimes when I see someone "teaching" I'll ask the lady to dance with me by saying "If I promise not to teach you anything will you dance with me?" Usually I get a smile in return and a Yes!

But (very) occasionally I get a puzzled frown and the response "I liked it." Which puzzles ME!


Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com (new short story added)


Looking for insurance? Click to compare and save big.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsHF61HJa94rwueChbHvAZLzQeXEXPEuEi9MFGHHxO8WuzEJVlTz9W/






Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:36:34 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Noughts wrote:

> I most certainly do NOT offer feedback or advice whilst social dancing
> except compliments or in rare extreme circumstances. Klaus is joking.

Having shared a dance floor with Damian before, I will confirm that he
does not behave in the manner described in Klaus' message. I've seen
such behaviour, but never from any actual teachers.

Myk,
in Canberra





Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:46:10 +0100
From: "Christian L?then" <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu


> Not only women easily accepted it? I believed it as well.

True: some followers also think they need to 'educate' the leaders.
I remember one follower doing this to me some years ago ('offering' me her comments and teaching in a too offensive way) ... allthough she regulary looks at me at the same milonga I *never* asked her to dance again!


> The moderator should the originator and "his sister" off the list.

Why? *no* reason at all! Putting him off the list would be more intollerant than anything else. He made a statement ... and *a lot* of folks on the list are commenting on which means there *is* need for discussion!


Have nice, teaching-free, dances!
Christian






> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <buffmilonguera@aol.com>
> To: <larrynla@juno.com>; <tango-L@mit.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
>
> I think the reason so many women so easily accepted the e-mail as true
> and serious, is because this behavior has truly and seriously been
> experienced at one level or another by all of us.
>

--
christian.luethen@gmx.net
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!





Computer Bild Tarifsieger! GMX FreeDSL - Telefonanschluss + DSL
f?r nur 17,95 ?/mtl.!* http://dsl.gmx.de/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a





Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:50:22 +1100
From: Vince Bagu?auskas <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Surviving Tango was RE: Shocked
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>


Is the etiquette of what to do at a milonga adhered to by even experienced dancers.

Fortunately when I joined my old tango club, they handed out a flyer
(maybe it is now on the web?) of what to do. But do schools/teachers do this
or refer their students to a source, before they venture into the world of
milongas?


Cheers!

Vince

Get rid of those unwanted christmas presents! Get what you want at ebay.
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Frover%2Eebay%2Ecom%2Frover%2F1%2F705%2D10129%2D5668%2D323%2F4%3Fid%3D10&_tv3807330&_r=hotmailTAGLINES&_m=EXT





Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:05:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu

A?'discussion' implies people offering different views. So far everyone
has agreed that teaching in a milonga is a big no-no. So, where's the
discussion, other than confirming what we all already know.

I really don't understand why Klaus wasted his time in writing such
a silly post and wasted our time in reading it and subsquent replies.
At the very least, I think Klaus owes us an explanation and an
apology. If it was meant to be a joke; I, for one, just don't 'get it'.

Jack


> From: Christian L?then <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
>
> > ... and *a lot* of folks on the list are
> commenting on which means there *is* need for discussion!
>











Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:08:02 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: Astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<13176a380902240708l310220c5i73dc643d7d1dd897@mail.gmail.com>

Astrid:
I thnk you're missing an important point. Klaus named a dancer by
name, Damian (Noughts), and described his dancing. That didn't sound
like a joke to me.

Michael

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:

> I fin this long discussion of all these American dancers agreeing that
> Theresia does not know tango etiquette , and that they all agree with
> Michael's posting and so on and so on.
> I believe that all of you completely missed the humour in Klaus Radek's
> posting. Having to explain a joke spoils the joke but since noone except
> another European is getting the joke I will take the liberty to advise you:
> please back and read Klaus' whole posting again with the notion that it was
> written tongue in cheek.
> To most Europeans this would be completely obvious and make us grin and
> giggle, but it seems to be lost on you.
>
> Astrid
>
> Michael wrote:
>>
>> ?Theresia: 1) It's considered bad manners to instruct during a
>> ?milonga. 2) ...
>
> etcetc.
>
>> ?I suspect you haven't dance tango long. There's more to tango than
>> ?figures. ETIQUETTE is also important.
>>
>> ?Michael
>
>
>



--
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango








Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:56:13 -0500
From: Tango Mail <tango@springssauna.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Shocked"
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Larry said:
----

Sometimes when I see someone "teaching" I'll ask the lady to dance with me by saying "If I promise not to
teach you anything will you dance with me?" Usually I get a smile in return and a Yes!

But (very) occasionally I get a puzzled frown and the response "I liked it." Which puzzles ME!


Larry de Los Angeles

----

I wish more people would abandon asking to dance verbally; above
conversation should never take place and if it does it should
be after the couple has started dancing (and at that time in a changed
way). Cabeceo needs to practiced more and enforced, too.
My friend D from the next town up North has said that women should
decline verbal invitations and only accept those made by
using cabeceo (she is a she herself). Since the men are inherently
incapable of complying with the old rules the women should
do the policing for the good of us all, IMHO. Surely doesn't help,
though, that the milongas are kept darker than my bedroom.
One can hardly make out who is sitting on the other side of the room.

Question: WHY are the milongas in the US kept so friggin' dark,
anyway? Isn't the motion and the dance itself 'romantic' enough?
I don't understand why one needs to have a flashlight with them to the
milongas.. and this is happening from coast-to-coast in the US.,
even during festivals when one would like to take video and photos, but
alas, can not.

Ta.





Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:12:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

I don't see how slandering someone and straight out telling lies could be seen as a joke. In my opinion, it's an insult to the purpose of this list. So far, there has not been a retraction or explanation by Klaus or no apology to Damian that we know of. Klaus' post was not funny. It was irresponsible. There was absolutely no indication of the post being a joke. And if the joke was in reference to Klaus' earlier posts, then I think he wrongly assumed that people on this list would actually remember (or have even read) his earlier posts. I'm with Huck and others on banning Klaus or at the very least, moderating him.

How many times have we heard that the pen is mightier than the sword? People need to be responsible for their own words, which Klaus seems reluctant to do.

Trini de Pittsburgh








Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:30:09 +0100
From: "Christian L?then" <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

As I do not know that teaching-while-social-dancing-person and I do not risk to bump in I did not care to even remember the name!

but the fact of teaching *during* a milonga is disturbing!!! esp. if a teacher does it!

Therefore not too much insulting to mee.


Interesting enough to observe just how many (!) now start bashing on the original poster ... somehow this makes me think: are all those also regulary teaching on the floor? =;-o


[I am fully aware of possible teaching during a milonga: dancing as a couple trying out / practising BUT _without_ any impact to any other social dancers on the floor and agreed by both dancers beforehand.]

Christian [in bad-guy-mode ;-) ]



-------- Original-Nachricht --------

> Datum: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:12:40 -0800 (PST)
> Von: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
> Betreff: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

> I don't see how slandering someone and straight out telling lies could be
> seen as a joke. In my opinion, it's an insult to the purpose of this list.
> So far, there has not been a retraction or explanation by Klaus or no
> apology to Damian that we know of. Klaus' post was not funny. It was
> irresponsible. There was absolutely no indication of the post being a joke. And
> if the joke was in reference to Klaus' earlier posts, then I think he
> wrongly assumed that people on this list would actually remember (or have even
> read) his earlier posts. I'm with Huck and others on banning Klaus or at
> the very least, moderating him.
>
> How many times have we heard that the pen is mightier than the sword?
> People need to be responsible for their own words, which Klaus seems reluctant
> to do.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>

--
christian.luethen@gmx.net
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!





Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01





Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:43:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo [was "Shocked"]
To: tango-l@mit.edu

This might come as a surprise to many but not everyone in enamored
with the cabeceo. My partner danced Ballroom for many years, where
the tradition is that the man comes to her table and politely asks her?
for the pleasure of the next dance. And, if he has a little charming chat,
then so much the better. For her, a wink and a nod just isn't what a
gentleman does if he wants to dance with a lady. And let's not forget
why?the cabeceo?was invented - to protect the male Argentines' fragile?
ego.

And, as for the lady searching out a man's eyes in the hope that he
will invite her to dance, well, to my partner, that's just not how a lady
behaves.

Tonight, I'm going to El Beso, where I'll again be confronted by a
full-wall-length of ladies with fixed smiles, desperatley hoping that
someone, anyone will ask them to dance. It's just a little sad ...

Jack

?

> From: Tango Mail <tango@springssauna.com>
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
>
> I wish more people would abandon asking to dance verbally; ....?
> Cabeceo needs to practiced more and enforced, too.
>










Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:00:49 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo [was "Shocked"]
To: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

cabeceo was also designed to help the ladies as well as the men.
I hate having to turn down dancers I don't want to dance with when they
come to my table to ask me to dance, because no, I don't dance with
everyone that asks.
as for the practices in ballroom...COMPLETELY different set of
circumstances!
I.

Jack Dylan wrote:

>This might come as a surprise to many but not everyone in enamored
>with the cabeceo. My partner danced Ballroom for many years, where
>the tradition is that the man comes to her table and politely asks her
>for the pleasure of the next dance. And, if he has a little charming chat,
>then so much the better. For her, a wink and a nod just isn't what a
>gentleman does if he wants to dance with a lady. And let's not forget
>why the cabeceo was invented - to protect the male Argentines' fragile
>ego.
>
>And, as for the lady searching out a man's eyes in the hope that he
>will invite her to dance, well, to my partner, that's just not how a lady
>behaves.
>
>Tonight, I'm going to El Beso, where I'll again be confronted by a
>full-wall-length of ladies with fixed smiles, desperatley hoping that
>someone, anyone will ask them to dance. It's just a little sad ...
>
>Jack
>
>
>
>
>>From: Tango Mail <tango@springssauna.com>
>>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>>
>>I wish more people would abandon asking to dance verbally; ....
>>Cabeceo needs to practiced more and enforced, too.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:40:05 -0200
From: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com> wrote:

> shocked a little even, to see how unrespectful people were to Damian
> (Nougts) - even to making him leave here!. I can tell you he is a

... rest of much-discussed post deleted.

"Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:

> The moderator should the originator and "his sister" off the list.

(I assume the missing word was "kick" or "throw" ...). I was puzzled at
that, since the reason appeared to be (echoed by a few others) his
"crime" of the use of irony (as they used to call it), without using a
smiley (also as they used to call it before it became "emoticon"). I'd
be more likely to defend it as a fast-fading art form (perhaps even in
the same category as the cabeceo).

But he (Michael) later clarified:

> I thnk you're missing an important point. Klaus named a dancer by
> name, Damian (Noughts), and described his dancing.

And that indeed does justify a slap on the wrist, more so because Mr.
Noughts (reports of whose departure from Tango-L seem to have been
greatly exaggerated) appears to teach professionally, and this may be a
back-door attempt at mud-slinging rivalry. Please consider your wrist
slapped--no, not you Damian, but Klaus--but keep up the irony, if you
can do without maligning others, and it may help to include a smiley,
even if it takes away half the fun ... oops almost forgot to include a :-).

So lighten up everybody, study up on rhetorical devices (I'll study up
on run-on sentences and their avoidance), make sure to include some
Tango content in each of your posts (administrator is exempt, though
hey, I did mention "cabeceo" ...), and PLEASE DELETE ALL THE PREVIOUS
TRAILING THREAD IN YOUR REPLIES (oops, sorry, didn't mean to shout).

Shahrukh





Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:47:52 -0500
From: sherpal1@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] shock
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu

oh my god, get over this:? i have never seen so many postings about such an insignificant matter....move on, get a life....say something important. sherrie





Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:05:41 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo [was "Shocked"]
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ecf43f370902241905u14433006tf28719f306a5ecc8@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:

> This might come as a surprise to many but not everyone in enamored
> with the cabeceo. My partner danced Ballroom for many years, where
> the tradition is that the man comes to her table and politely asks her
> for the pleasure of the next dance.

Thanks Jack, if I ever decide to dance ballroom socially, I'll know what to do.

Huck





Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:30:19 -0500
From: Steve Littler <sl@stevelittler.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo [was "Shocked"]
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>

Yes, but in ballroom the woman doesn't have to hug up to a stranger in
an intimate fashion, heart-to-heart, cheek-to-cheek. She usually stands
apart and looks away from him.

(It didn't take me long to quit ballroom after I found Tango.)

Steve

Jack Dylan wrote:

> This might come as a surprise to many but not everyone in enamored
> with the cabeceo. My partner danced Ballroom for many years, where
> the tradition is that the man comes to her table and politely asks her
> for the pleasure of the next dance.





Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 08:51:51 +0100
From: "Christian L?then" <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] chear up - Re: Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Ha, Shahrukh,

brilliant posting. And of your best ever in your function as moderator of the list! Congrats!


Here's a little link I received this morning which hopefully makes you all chear up again (on tango matters!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=6QaSJAbc2mg


Enjoy!
Christian


.



-------- Original-Nachricht --------

> Datum: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:40:05 -0200
> Von: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
> An: tango-l@mit.edu
> Betreff: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

> Klaus Radek <tangowien@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > shocked a little even, to see how unrespectful people were to Damian
> > (Nougts) - even to making him leave here!. I can tell you he is a
> ... rest of much-discussed post deleted.
>
> "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
> > The moderator should the originator and "his sister" off the list.
>
> (I assume the missing word was "kick" or "throw" ...). I was puzzled at
> that, since the reason appeared to be (echoed by a few others) his
> "crime" of the use of irony (as they used to call it), without using a
> smiley (also as they used to call it before it became "emoticon"). I'd
> be more likely to defend it as a fast-fading art form (perhaps even in
> the same category as the cabeceo).
>
> But he (Michael) later clarified:
> > I thnk you're missing an important point. Klaus named a dancer by
> > name, Damian (Noughts), and described his dancing.
>
> And that indeed does justify a slap on the wrist, more so because Mr.
> Noughts (reports of whose departure from Tango-L seem to have been
> greatly exaggerated) appears to teach professionally, and this may be a
> back-door attempt at mud-slinging rivalry. Please consider your wrist
> slapped--no, not you Damian, but Klaus--but keep up the irony, if you
> can do without maligning others, and it may help to include a smiley,
> even if it takes away half the fun ... oops almost forgot to include a
> :-).
>
> So lighten up everybody, study up on rhetorical devices (I'll study up
> on run-on sentences and their avoidance), make sure to include some
> Tango content in each of your posts (administrator is exempt, though
> hey, I did mention "cabeceo" ...), and PLEASE DELETE ALL THE PREVIOUS
> TRAILING THREAD IN YOUR REPLIES (oops, sorry, didn't mean to shout).
>
> Shahrukh

--



.


Computer Bild Tarifsieger! GMX FreeDSL - Telefonanschluss + DSL
f?r nur 17,95 ?/mtl.!* http://dsl.gmx.de/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a







Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:04:17 -0800 (PST)
From: musette fan <musettefan@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo [was "Shocked"]
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>, Steve Littler
<sl@stevelittler.com>


And in ballroom the woman does not have to dance 3 songs in a row with each man who asks.


--- On Tue, 2/24/09, Steve Littler <sl@stevelittler.com> wrote:

> Yes, but in ballroom the woman doesn't have to hug up to a stranger in an intimate fashion, heart-to-heart, cheek-to-cheek. She
> usually stands apart and looks away from him.
>
> (It didn't take me long to quit ballroom after I found Tango.)
>
> Steve
>
> Jack Dylan wrote:
> > This might come as a surprise to many but not everyone
> in enamored with the cabeceo. My partner danced Ballroom for many
> years, where the tradition is that the man comes to her table and
> politely asks her for the pleasure of the next dance.








Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:18:23 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>


OK, here's a contrary opinion:
I disagree with the hard rule about teaching at milongas. I believe the "rule" that should be focused on is to be respectful of and avoid disrupting other dancers at a milonga. "Teaching" often involves stopping in place, which disrupts LOD, and it usually includes loud talking, which distracts other dancers from their enjoyment of the music. If you can "teach" without disrupting other dancers in these two ways, I see no problem with it.

J



Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009




Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:09:20 +1100
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

If you are not verbally explaining, and not stopping and
demonstrating, then you are probably not "teaching" anyway, in the
sense that most people seem to mean when they ask people not to do it
on the dance floor. Your partner may well be learning, but that's a
whole other ball game. I would think of my actions in this context
perhaps as "helping". I've certainly been helped by many women on
the dance floor, without them saying a word, and have learnt a lot
from that.

GB

On 26/02/2009, at 11:18 AM, Jay Rabe apparently wrote, among other
things:

> I believe the "rule" that should be focused on is to be respectful
> of and avoid disrupting other dancers at a milonga. "Teaching"
> often involves stopping in place, which disrupts LOD, and it
> usually includes loud talking, which distracts other dancers from
> their enjoyment of the music. If you can "teach" without disrupting
> other dancers in these two ways, I see no problem with it.
>





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:33:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

I think Jay is going to have to explain a lot more about the form of teaching
in a milonga that he thinks is acceptable. IMO, it's not just about disrupting
the other dancers; its also about the fact that most ladies truly hate it. I also
consider it disrespectful to the lady - unless she actually asks for assistance.
And, even then, IMO, the answer should be - 'another time, lets just dance'.

Jack



> From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>
>
> If you are not verbally explaining, and not stopping and?
> demonstrating, then you are probably not "teaching" anyway, in the?
> sense that most people seem to mean when they ask people not to do it?
> on the dance floor.?
>
> On 26/02/2009, at 11:18 AM, Jay Rabe apparently wrote, among other?
> things:
>
> >? If you can "teach" without disrupting?
> > other dancers in these two ways, I see no problem with it.
> >











Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:24:39 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>


One example: I was dancing with a relatively new follower, in close-embrace, and she was missing the cross. As is usually the case, she recognized it after the fact, because she felt our body positions out of alignment. As we were dancing, she asked, "I missed the cross, didn't I?" I said yes, and suggested she bend her standing knee a bit more and take slightly bigger back steps, which separates our feet a bit more and keeps her weight more forward, making the cross more likely as opposed to a back step when in the #4 position. You can call this teaching or coaching or whatever, but we didn't disrupt anyone, and she clearly asked for the advice.

J



It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009




Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:55:33 -0800
From: Brick Robbins <brick@fastpack.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ca2c2380902261255u189727a6ud7f86b9348fdafd2@mail.gmail.com>

> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:18:23 +0000
> From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
>
> OK, here's a contrary opinion:
> I disagree with the hard rule about teaching at milongas. I believe the "rule" that should
> be focused on is to be respectful of and avoid disrupting other dancers at a milonga.

I believe that Jay has hit the nail on the head. The whole point of
all the codes is to try to encourage an environment that is pleasant
for everyone involved.

The teaching prohibition discourages the problem of unwanted advice
(often bad) being forced upon people (usually followers) and the
problem of couples blocking traffic in the ronda, and of loud
conversation disrupting neighbors. It is not difficult to image a
situation where some instruction might be given where none of the
above problems occur. Say, two good friends, one new to tango, quietly
working in a corner of a large dance floor at the beginning of a
milonga, after the lesson.

The cabeceo allows both men, and women more control over picking
partners. The same with the rule about women verbally asking men. Does
this mean that it is wrong for me to verbally ask a friend next to me
when a Biagi tanda starts, with whom I have enjoyed many Biagi tandas?
Most certainly not.

The same thing with open embrace dancers mixing with close embrace
dancers. If environment is such (large floor, sparse attendance) that
dancers can do their double-flying-gancho-backflips without disrupting
neighbors, and their skill level is high enough that they are actually
able do it without disrupting neighbors, is there a problem?

I think the problems occur because the people without the experience,
skill or care, are the ones who verbally ask women who don't want to
dance with them, teach them on the floor, and do big dramatic
movements while they kick and run into their neighbors.

And it takes all 3: experience, skill & care. I've seen some very
skilled dancers (often teachers) not care enough about their
neighbors, do their big dramatic movements and bump, kick or simply
scare them.

I think I heard it best put at the San Francisco Tango Exchange last year

1) Respect your partner
2) Respect yourself
3) Respect the music
4) Respect the people around you.

Can't we all just get along?





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:00:08 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked



--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:

> As we were
> dancing, she asked, "I missed the cross, didn't
> I?" I said yes, and suggested she bend her standing
> knee a bit more and take slightly bigger back steps, which
> separates our feet a bit more and keeps her weight more
> forward, making the cross more likely as opposed to a back
> step when in the #4 position.

So you basically made her self-conscious about her walk for the rest of the night. This is why "helping" like this at a milonga is a bad idea. Since she's a beginner, she'll now get it into her head that it's okay to teach or be taught at a milonga. Forget about listening to the music or her partner.

Unless someone is in physical pain, there's no reason to be teaching on the dance floor, even if someone has asked. A simple answer to her question is, "Well, perhaps I didn't lead it clearly enough for you, but don't worry about it. I still enjoyed dancing with you. Let's just have fun."

Trini de Pittburgh










Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 00:32:48 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>


Seems like there's a confusion between two separate issues.

The first issue is the supposed prohibition
against teaching at milongas. I thought I made my point clear, that avoiding disturbing other dancers is the primary responsibility, and
any teaching/coaching you can do that doesn't disturb others is OK IMO.
That said, it's obvious that it's a thin line, and you can't do very much,
maybe 5-10 seconds of explanation, without risking violation of the primary rule, but as
always, it's very situational, depending mostly on how crowded the
floor is, i.e. how close other dancers are to you that might be bothered
by talking. What I'm saying is that teaching at milongas is not a bad thing per se, but it's very difficult to do very much without violating the Primary rule, that being not disturbing other dancers.


Trini I applaud your being a champion to the timid beginners who are uncomfortably set upon by self-proclaimed experts. I assure you I'm as concerned as you are about building the community and retaining new dancers. This however is a completley separate issue from the first one, and I think you can risk over-generalizing. Lots of new followers are anxious to learn whatever they can from whoever they can. It's not too different from a common festival phenomenon, during which you take classes with lots of different teachers and often get flatly contradictory advice from them. It's up to the student to sort out what works for them, what's really foundational technique and what are merely stylistic differences.

I completely agree that making a new dancer uncomfortable with criticism is abhorrent. And that's certainly not what I was doing, and frankly, since you weren't there, you're hardly in a position to say otherwise. In the case in point, I assure you I enjoyed my dance with her, and I let her know it, and her enthusiasm to dance with me at subsequent events tells me that she enjoyed it too. Isn't that the bottom line?

J




It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009




Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:43:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

I agree with Trini. My response would probably have been ...."don't worry about
it; let's just try again."? Later, when leading the cross again, I would make the
lead very clear so that I'm sure she'd follow correctly.. Then I could say something
like ... "OK, no problem". This kind of thing happens all the time and the girl is
always very happy with the outcome.

As for Jay's advice to the girl, during a milonga,?to 'bend the knees more and
take bigger backward steps', that's very fundamental teaching and, IMO,?definitely
shouldn't be done at a milonga. However, LEADING the girl to do it would be a
completely?different thing and would be very acceptable, IMO.

Jack


----- Original Message ----

> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>
>
> So you basically made her self-conscious about her walk for the rest of the
> night.? This is why "helping" like this at a milonga is a bad idea.? Since she's
> a beginner, she'll now get it into her head that it's okay to teach or be taught
> at a milonga.? Forget about listening to the music or her partner.?
>









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