4477 Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:37:52 -0500
From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: tango-L@mit.edu
<cff24c340607121437g857518bg7d09c68b4d60648e@mail.gmail.com>
In Buenos Aires porten~os don't have difficulty separating stage tango
and social tango. This is the culture that created tango, so perhaps
we should listen.
In the early 20th century, Europeans and North Americans had their
first exposure to tango. It was as shocking as it was popular, often
considered too provocative for euro-norteamericano tastes. So it was
sanitized and standardized to fit the cultural norms of the recipient
cultures. Thus, today ballroom dance studios teach an American tango
where partners at times separate part of the embrace or the
International tango with bizarre head-flicking, both danced in a march
like fashion to marching music with a strong drum line. This dance is
an evolutionary derivative of the tango from Argentina, perhaps much
accurately described as a fusion of a foreign form with an indigenous
(ballroom) form and it is still called 'tango'.
In the 1980s and 90s Tango Argentino and other stage shows introduced
Europeans and North Americans to another version of tango - tango
fantasia, as it is sometimes called. This type of tango is not
normally danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, exposure to
the shows created a demand from viewers to learn this type of tango
and they did and danced it socially. This learning and further demand
was reinforced by continued travel of tango stage performers to the US
and Europe to teach. Thus, a modified tango fantasia became the norm
at US & European milongas.
There are probably several reasons why modified tango fantasia became
the standard social form in the US. Part of it is due to a 'founder
effect', i.e., it was the part of the Argentine tango culture that was
brought to the US. However, tango fantasia also met with acceptance in
the US because it blended well within a recipient culture that places
a value on exhibition - whether it is dance or sports or motion
pictures. We are a culture that enjoys and reinforces visual display.
Social (milonguero and other) styles of tango have had a more
difficult route of cultural diffusion in the US. As an instructor of
the milonguero style in the Midwest US, I have repeatedly encountered
resistence against the idea of dancing with maintained chest-to-chest
contact. North Americans are uncomfortable with close physical
contact. Dancing at a distance and making large conspicuous movements
is less personal, less threatening, more comfortable, more consistent
with our culture.
This is not to say that tango fantasia is bad or somehow inherently
evil. When done well on the stage, it is an art form to be admired. It
requires great skill. It is great entertainment. However, on the
social dance floor, it can be dangerous. Stop talking about all the
fantasia dancers who respect the line of dance. They are few and far
between. More likely to be encountered are dancers with limited skills
who cannot navigate well and are a collision danger to other dancers.
I've had to learn defensive navigation on the dance floor because of
them.
Fantasia is adapted to the stage. Social tango is adapted to the
social dance floor.
Despite exposure to the social style of tango in the US, there is
limited acceptance. I believe one important thing North Americans fail
to understand is that one of the unique features of social tango that
makes it such a powerful experience that we become addicted to it is
that there is connection primarily through the tactile and auditory
sensory modalities, not the visual. Tactile connection with partner,
auditory with music, with the visual sensory modality used primarily
by leaders to navigate so as to not collide with other people on the
floor. In what other dance can we maintain an intimate embrace with a
partner for 10-15 minutes, synchonizing our brething and heartbeats,
bathing in each other's sweat, flowing to passionate music? The
porten~os understand this. North Americans have difficulty letting
down their defenses enough to experience this.
This concept is very foreign to a culture that glorifies exhibition
and finds interpersonal contact threatening.
So perhaps a modified tango fantasia or the similar 'nuevo' tango will
define tango social dancing in the US for a long time to come, much as
American Tango and International Tango did previously. But remember,
this is not the tango that is danced socially in Buenos Aires. That
may or may not mean anything to most US dancers, which is not a
surprising revelation, since North Americans are known worldwide for
interpreting any cultural product in their own terms. Our inability to
understand other cultures is one of the reasons we are considered
arrogant and have so much conflict with other cultures all around the
world.
Ron
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 18:52:16 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Looks like it's time for my "spitting cobra" routine again.
Short version:
Ron, your "theory" of tango rather conveniently suits your opinion, like
the a priori argument that it is. You start with the premise that the
tango is an Argentine social dance, and reason your way to that
conclusion, sidelining potent international influences and "non-salon"
developments categorically. One might ask where El Cachafaz and
Petroleo, along with scores of other "battling" milongueros, fit into
your overgeneralized history. Tango nuevo is perfectly in line with any
history of the dance that includes Them.
And where did this naive idea arise, about social dances not having
audiences? Aren't dancers continually checking each other out?
Your nod to "other" styles is peremptory, at best. "They belong on the
stage." Meanwhile, here in reality, I've already made the point that the
tango has always enjoyed a multiplicity of styles-- social styles.
Sergio even backed me up on it, and he was the one I was picking a bone
with. Now, the main difference between Buenos Aires and America, as far
as stylistic plurality goes, is that in BA, if eyewitness reports are to
be believed, style varies by barrio and by venue. Here, where
alternative music is often in the mix someplace, and where honest-to-god
Stage music is often played at conservative milongas (such as the few
I've attended in Miami), style usually varies _by tanda_. This is the
result of two different aesthetics, one local (BA) and the other
occasional (US). Americans, young or old, have not shown me they're
squeamish about torso contact. They _have_ shown me they're intensely
curious about the different faces of the dance.
They have also shown me that, when they become attached to one
particular style (to the exclusion of everything else), they become
bigoted about it, make a big stink about "authenticity," and start
flying the Argentine flag to mask the paucity of their proof.
As for your points, Tom-- I'm saying that (certain) social dancers cause
problems on the floor _for each other_ too. If I dance fast and open, I
can dodge them much more easily. The majority of those who dance open,
from what I have seen with my own eyes, are not actually hazardous on
the floor, despite the fact that less experienced dancers are, from time
to time, afraid of their speed. There _are_ trick-dancers who cause
trouble, but they are quite easily corralled by conscientious leaders,
and adapt to the context without much complaint. The problematic
"closeys," however, are nearly impossible to deal with. If I and two
other attentive leaders cluster around them, backs facing, to close off
their space a bit, we just get clocked.
Furthermore, I've got videos of older couples doing trick-heavy dancing,
much of it (to my eye) improv. The idea that only young people with good
joints are interested in tango nuevo, or more "visually" satisfying
stuff, is nonsense. It appeals to people with a sense of adventure and a
sense of fun, and what country issued their passport is wholly irrelevant.
And if you want to bring up community outreach, then tell me what you
think would happen if you began recruiting inner-city (i.e., black) high
schoolers who've grown up dancing to hip-hop. THAT would be something to
see. I dabbled with it in Baltimore, and I'm sorry to say I haven't been
able to follow up. But what have you done? Recruited more of your own
demographic?
As for context... Yes, I agree with your stated principle
wholeheartedly, and that's why I dance more than one style. Those who
confine themselves to one style (and no one has to, regardless of body
type: it's a choice), I hasten to inform you, are _ignoring_ context. If
you dance the same way to Tanturi as you do to D'Arienzo, and you're
beyond your first year of milonga attendance, you're not pushing
yourself hard enough to develop as a dancer, "performer" or not.
Period.
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Ron Weigel wrote:
> In Buenos Aires porten~os don't have difficulty separating stage tango
> and social tango. This is the culture that created tango, so perhaps
> we should listen.
>
> In the early 20th century, Europeans and North Americans had their
> first exposure to tango. It was as shocking as it was popular, often
> considered too provocative for euro-norteamericano tastes. So it was
> sanitized and standardized to fit the cultural norms of the recipient
> cultures. Thus, today ballroom dance studios teach an American tango
> where partners at times separate part of the embrace or the
> International tango with bizarre head-flicking, both danced in a march
> like fashion to marching music with a strong drum line. This dance is
> an evolutionary derivative of the tango from Argentina, perhaps much
> accurately described as a fusion of a foreign form with an indigenous
> (ballroom) form and it is still called 'tango'.
>
> In the 1980s and 90s Tango Argentino and other stage shows introduced
> Europeans and North Americans to another version of tango - tango
> fantasia, as it is sometimes called. This type of tango is not
> normally danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, exposure to
> the shows created a demand from viewers to learn this type of tango
> and they did and danced it socially. This learning and further demand
> was reinforced by continued travel of tango stage performers to the US
> and Europe to teach. Thus, a modified tango fantasia became the norm
> at US & European milongas.
>
> There are probably several reasons why modified tango fantasia became
> the standard social form in the US. Part of it is due to a 'founder
> effect', i.e., it was the part of the Argentine tango culture that was
> brought to the US. However, tango fantasia also met with acceptance in
> the US because it blended well within a recipient culture that places
> a value on exhibition - whether it is dance or sports or motion
> pictures. We are a culture that enjoys and reinforces visual display.
>
> Social (milonguero and other) styles of tango have had a more
> difficult route of cultural diffusion in the US. As an instructor of
> the milonguero style in the Midwest US, I have repeatedly encountered
> resistence against the idea of dancing with maintained chest-to-chest
> contact. North Americans are uncomfortable with close physical
> contact. Dancing at a distance and making large conspicuous movements
> is less personal, less threatening, more comfortable, more consistent
> with our culture.
>
> This is not to say that tango fantasia is bad or somehow inherently
> evil. When done well on the stage, it is an art form to be admired. It
> requires great skill. It is great entertainment. However, on the
> social dance floor, it can be dangerous. Stop talking about all the
> fantasia dancers who respect the line of dance. They are few and far
> between. More likely to be encountered are dancers with limited skills
> who cannot navigate well and are a collision danger to other dancers.
> I've had to learn defensive navigation on the dance floor because of
> them.
>
> Fantasia is adapted to the stage. Social tango is adapted to the
> social dance floor.
>
> Despite exposure to the social style of tango in the US, there is
> limited acceptance. I believe one important thing North Americans fail
> to understand is that one of the unique features of social tango that
> makes it such a powerful experience that we become addicted to it is
> that there is connection primarily through the tactile and auditory
> sensory modalities, not the visual. Tactile connection with partner,
> auditory with music, with the visual sensory modality used primarily
> by leaders to navigate so as to not collide with other people on the
> floor. In what other dance can we maintain an intimate embrace with a
> partner for 10-15 minutes, synchonizing our brething and heartbeats,
> bathing in each other's sweat, flowing to passionate music? The
> porten~os understand this. North Americans have difficulty letting
> down their defenses enough to experience this.
>
> This concept is very foreign to a culture that glorifies exhibition
> and finds interpersonal contact threatening.
>
> So perhaps a modified tango fantasia or the similar 'nuevo' tango will
> define tango social dancing in the US for a long time to come, much as
> American Tango and International Tango did previously. But remember,
> this is not the tango that is danced socially in Buenos Aires. That
> may or may not mean anything to most US dancers, which is not a
> surprising revelation, since North Americans are known worldwide for
> interpreting any cultural product in their own terms. Our inability to
> understand other cultures is one of the reasons we are considered
> arrogant and have so much conflict with other cultures all around the
> world.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:43:19 -0700
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>, <tango-L@mit.edu>
Ron...If you understood Argentine culture as well as you claim to, you
would know that "Milonguero" is simply someone who goes partying and dancing
all the time, for social purposes, whatever style he or she dances.
The word is used all over Southamerica , is not exclusive of Argentina and
it may have nothing to do with Tango, depending on context.
I think you know very well that you should be calling what you teach
"Apilado" o "Del Centro" but you desperately hang on to the "Milonguero "
label to imply that you are the "real thing", "the authentic one" and the
next guy is NOT .
Others like you do the same thing with the labels "Close embrace" or "Buenos
Aires style". Shame on them and you. You are excluding and offending
millions of milongueros, who never danced such style. Not now, not in the
Golden ages, not in Buenos Aires, not anywhere . Anybody who doubts this,
can refer to Pepito Avellaneda's videos or discuss the issue with living
legend milongueros Facundo Posadas or Julio Balmaceda, to name just two.
Salon and Nuevo, like it or not, are also "social ", were also created
(Salon, half a century before the so called "milonguero") and are danced in
Buenos Aires, depending on which Milonga you attend, and can also be danced
in close embrace, even closer.
I agree with you and Tom that we all must use judgement to adjust to
circumstances and context, but that has absolutely nothing to do with style.
Horrendeous navigation come in all styles and is more a matter of attitude
rather than skills or lack thereof.
To lift your partner over yor head or have her hanging around your waist I
agree is not "social", but I heard the same thing said about boleos,
sacadas, enrosques, colgadas, etc. It sounds to me, agreeing with Jake, like
a lame excuse for not making the effort to aquire the skills to be able to
do them.
Gabriel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:37 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
> In Buenos Aires porten~os don't have difficulty separating stage tango
> and social tango. This is the culture that created tango, so perhaps
> we should listen.
>
> In the early 20th century, Europeans and North Americans had their
> first exposure to tango. It was as shocking as it was popular, often
> considered too provocative for euro-norteamericano tastes. So it was
> sanitized and standardized to fit the cultural norms of the recipient
> cultures. Thus, today ballroom dance studios teach an American tango
> where partners at times separate part of the embrace or the
> International tango with bizarre head-flicking, both danced in a march
> like fashion to marching music with a strong drum line. This dance is
> an evolutionary derivative of the tango from Argentina, perhaps much
> accurately described as a fusion of a foreign form with an indigenous
> (ballroom) form and it is still called 'tango'.
>
> In the 1980s and 90s Tango Argentino and other stage shows introduced
> Europeans and North Americans to another version of tango - tango
> fantasia, as it is sometimes called. This type of tango is not
> normally danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, exposure to
> the shows created a demand from viewers to learn this type of tango
> and they did and danced it socially. This learning and further demand
> was reinforced by continued travel of tango stage performers to the US
> and Europe to teach. Thus, a modified tango fantasia became the norm
> at US & European milongas.
>
> There are probably several reasons why modified tango fantasia became
> the standard social form in the US. Part of it is due to a 'founder
> effect', i.e., it was the part of the Argentine tango culture that was
> brought to the US. However, tango fantasia also met with acceptance in
> the US because it blended well within a recipient culture that places
> a value on exhibition - whether it is dance or sports or motion
> pictures. We are a culture that enjoys and reinforces visual display.
>
> Social (milonguero and other) styles of tango have had a more
> difficult route of cultural diffusion in the US. As an instructor of
> the milonguero style in the Midwest US, I have repeatedly encountered
> resistence against the idea of dancing with maintained chest-to-chest
> contact. North Americans are uncomfortable with close physical
> contact. Dancing at a distance and making large conspicuous movements
> is less personal, less threatening, more comfortable, more consistent
> with our culture.
>
> This is not to say that tango fantasia is bad or somehow inherently
> evil. When done well on the stage, it is an art form to be admired. It
> requires great skill. It is great entertainment. However, on the
> social dance floor, it can be dangerous. Stop talking about all the
> fantasia dancers who respect the line of dance. They are few and far
> between. More likely to be encountered are dancers with limited skills
> who cannot navigate well and are a collision danger to other dancers.
> I've had to learn defensive navigation on the dance floor because of
> them.
>
> Fantasia is adapted to the stage. Social tango is adapted to the
> social dance floor.
>
> Despite exposure to the social style of tango in the US, there is
> limited acceptance. I believe one important thing North Americans fail
> to understand is that one of the unique features of social tango that
> makes it such a powerful experience that we become addicted to it is
> that there is connection primarily through the tactile and auditory
> sensory modalities, not the visual. Tactile connection with partner,
> auditory with music, with the visual sensory modality used primarily
> by leaders to navigate so as to not collide with other people on the
> floor. In what other dance can we maintain an intimate embrace with a
> partner for 10-15 minutes, synchonizing our brething and heartbeats,
> bathing in each other's sweat, flowing to passionate music? The
> porten~os understand this. North Americans have difficulty letting
> down their defenses enough to experience this.
>
> This concept is very foreign to a culture that glorifies exhibition
> and finds interpersonal contact threatening.
>
> So perhaps a modified tango fantasia or the similar 'nuevo' tango will
> define tango social dancing in the US for a long time to come, much as
> American Tango and International Tango did previously. But remember,
> this is not the tango that is danced socially in Buenos Aires. That
> may or may not mean anything to most US dancers, which is not a
> surprising revelation, since North Americans are known worldwide for
> interpreting any cultural product in their own terms. Our inability to
> understand other cultures is one of the reasons we are considered
> arrogant and have so much conflict with other cultures all around the
> world.
>
> Ron
>
>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:50:49 -0700
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: <spatz@tangoDC.com>, <tango-L@mit.edu>
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
> Looks like it's time for my "spitting cobra" routine again.
>
> Short version:
>
> Ron, your "theory" of tango rather conveniently suits your opinion, like
> the a priori argument that it is. You start with the premise that the
> tango is an Argentine social dance, and reason your way to that
> conclusion, sidelining potent international influences and "non-salon"
> developments categorically. One might ask where El Cachafaz and
> Petroleo, along with scores of other "battling" milongueros, fit into
> your overgeneralized history. Tango nuevo is perfectly in line with any
> history of the dance that includes Them.
Yes, Sir...
>
> And where did this naive idea arise, about social dances not having
> audiences? Aren't dancers continually checking each other out?
And criticizing, praising, dismissing....
>
> Your nod to "other" styles is peremptory, at best. "They belong on the
> stage." Meanwhile, here in reality, I've already made the point that the
> tango has always enjoyed a multiplicity of styles-- social styles.
> Sergio even backed me up on it, and he was the one I was picking a bone
> with. Now, the main difference between Buenos Aires and America, as far
> as stylistic plurality goes, is that in BA, if eyewitness reports are to
> be believed, style varies by barrio and by venue. Here, where
> alternative music is often in the mix someplace, and where honest-to-god
> Stage music is often played at conservative milongas (such as the few
> I've attended in Miami), style usually varies _by tanda_. This is the
> result of two different aesthetics, one local (BA) and the other
> occasional (US). Americans, young or old, have not shown me they're
> squeamish about torso contact. They _have_ shown me they're intensely
> curious about the different faces of the dance.
>
> They have also shown me that, when they become attached to one
> particular style (to the exclusion of everything else), they become
> bigoted about it, make a big stink about "authenticity," and start
> flying the Argentine flag to mask the paucity of their proof.
YESSS, SIR....
>
> As for your points, Tom-- I'm saying that (certain) social dancers cause
> problems on the floor _for each other_ too. If I dance fast and open, I
> can dodge them much more easily. The majority of those who dance open,
> from what I have seen with my own eyes, are not actually hazardous on
> the floor, despite the fact that less experienced dancers are, from time
> to time, afraid of their speed. There _are_ trick-dancers who cause
> trouble, but they are quite easily corralled by conscientious leaders,
> and adapt to the context without much complaint. The problematic
> "closeys," however, are nearly impossible to deal with. If I and two
> other attentive leaders cluster around them, backs facing, to close off
> their space a bit, we just get clocked.
>
> Furthermore, I've got videos of older couples doing trick-heavy dancing,
> much of it (to my eye) improv. The idea that only young people with good
> joints are interested in tango nuevo, or more "visually" satisfying
> stuff, is nonsense. It appeals to people with a sense of adventure and a
> sense of fun, and what country issued their passport is wholly irrelevant.
>
> And if you want to bring up community outreach, then tell me what you
> think would happen if you began recruiting inner-city (i.e., black) high
> schoolers who've grown up dancing to hip-hop. THAT would be something to
> see. I dabbled with it in Baltimore, and I'm sorry to say I haven't been
> able to follow up. But what have you done? Recruited more of your own
> demographic?
>
> As for context... Yes, I agree with your stated principle
> wholeheartedly, and that's why I dance more than one style. Those who
> confine themselves to one style (and no one has to, regardless of body
> type: it's a choice), I hasten to inform you, are _ignoring_ context. If
> you dance the same way to Tanturi as you do to D'Arienzo, and you're
> beyond your first year of milonga attendance, you're not pushing
> yourself hard enough to develop as a dancer, "performer" or not.
>
> Period.
>
> Jake Spatz
> Washington, DC
>
>
> Ron Weigel wrote:
>> In Buenos Aires porten~os don't have difficulty separating stage tango
>> and social tango. This is the culture that created tango, so perhaps
>> we should listen.
>>
>> In the early 20th century, Europeans and North Americans had their
>> first exposure to tango. It was as shocking as it was popular, often
>> considered too provocative for euro-norteamericano tastes. So it was
>> sanitized and standardized to fit the cultural norms of the recipient
>> cultures. Thus, today ballroom dance studios teach an American tango
>> where partners at times separate part of the embrace or the
>> International tango with bizarre head-flicking, both danced in a march
>> like fashion to marching music with a strong drum line. This dance is
>> an evolutionary derivative of the tango from Argentina, perhaps much
>> accurately described as a fusion of a foreign form with an indigenous
>> (ballroom) form and it is still called 'tango'.
>>
>> In the 1980s and 90s Tango Argentino and other stage shows introduced
>> Europeans and North Americans to another version of tango - tango
>> fantasia, as it is sometimes called. This type of tango is not
>> normally danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, exposure to
>> the shows created a demand from viewers to learn this type of tango
>> and they did and danced it socially. This learning and further demand
>> was reinforced by continued travel of tango stage performers to the US
>> and Europe to teach. Thus, a modified tango fantasia became the norm
>> at US & European milongas.
>>
>> There are probably several reasons why modified tango fantasia became
>> the standard social form in the US. Part of it is due to a 'founder
>> effect', i.e., it was the part of the Argentine tango culture that was
>> brought to the US. However, tango fantasia also met with acceptance in
>> the US because it blended well within a recipient culture that places
>> a value on exhibition - whether it is dance or sports or motion
>> pictures. We are a culture that enjoys and reinforces visual display.
>>
>> Social (milonguero and other) styles of tango have had a more
>> difficult route of cultural diffusion in the US. As an instructor of
>> the milonguero style in the Midwest US, I have repeatedly encountered
>> resistence against the idea of dancing with maintained chest-to-chest
>> contact. North Americans are uncomfortable with close physical
>> contact. Dancing at a distance and making large conspicuous movements
>> is less personal, less threatening, more comfortable, more consistent
>> with our culture.
>>
>> This is not to say that tango fantasia is bad or somehow inherently
>> evil. When done well on the stage, it is an art form to be admired. It
>> requires great skill. It is great entertainment. However, on the
>> social dance floor, it can be dangerous. Stop talking about all the
>> fantasia dancers who respect the line of dance. They are few and far
>> between. More likely to be encountered are dancers with limited skills
>> who cannot navigate well and are a collision danger to other dancers.
>> I've had to learn defensive navigation on the dance floor because of
>> them.
>>
>> Fantasia is adapted to the stage. Social tango is adapted to the
>> social dance floor.
>>
>> Despite exposure to the social style of tango in the US, there is
>> limited acceptance. I believe one important thing North Americans fail
>> to understand is that one of the unique features of social tango that
>> makes it such a powerful experience that we become addicted to it is
>> that there is connection primarily through the tactile and auditory
>> sensory modalities, not the visual. Tactile connection with partner,
>> auditory with music, with the visual sensory modality used primarily
>> by leaders to navigate so as to not collide with other people on the
>> floor. In what other dance can we maintain an intimate embrace with a
>> partner for 10-15 minutes, synchonizing our brething and heartbeats,
>> bathing in each other's sweat, flowing to passionate music? The
>> porten~os understand this. North Americans have difficulty letting
>> down their defenses enough to experience this.
>>
>> This concept is very foreign to a culture that glorifies exhibition
>> and finds interpersonal contact threatening.
>>
>> So perhaps a modified tango fantasia or the similar 'nuevo' tango will
>> define tango social dancing in the US for a long time to come, much as
>> American Tango and International Tango did previously. But remember,
>> this is not the tango that is danced socially in Buenos Aires. That
>> may or may not mean anything to most US dancers, which is not a
>> surprising revelation, since North Americans are known worldwide for
>> interpreting any cultural product in their own terms. Our inability to
>> understand other cultures is one of the reasons we are considered
>> arrogant and have so much conflict with other cultures all around the
>> world.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 23:09:18 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: tango-L@mit.edu
On Jul 12, 2006, at 9:43 PM, El Mundo del Tango wrote:
> Ron...If you understood Argentine culture as well as you claim
> to, you
> would know that "Milonguero" is simply someone who goes partying
> and dancing
> all the time, for social purposes, whatever style he or she dances.
> The word is used all over Southamerica , is not exclusive of
> Argentina and
> it may have nothing to do with Tango, depending on context.
Gabriel, you need to travel more. Get out of San Diego. Southern
California is a trap, and it eats at your soul.
Obviously (if you have spent any time in Buenos Aires), the word
milonguero is the most common term for the rhythmic, close-embrace
style of dance typical of numerous milongas in Buenos Aires. I have
sometimes heard this style refered to as apilado (?), or confiteria
(?), or estilo del centro (Lapadula), or club style (Arquimbau), but
those seem to be personal names for the same thing, not generally
accepted ones.
I've never heard of the tango style you call "Buenos Aires Style".
To me, apilado is more of a descriptive than a style. Maybe it is
similar to the english term close-embrace.
Contrary to your claim, the term "Milonguero Style" is definately
used to name the style useful for crowded floors with fewer pivoting
ochos and frequent use of ocho cortados. Tango de Salon in Buenos
Aires pretty much means social style tango (without reference to
specific details) while Salon Style Tango in the US usually means the
slightly open style emphasizing pivoting ochos, circular molinetes,
sacadas, etc.
It may be that Susana Miller coined the term Milonguero Style, but it
is quite widespread these days. For example, see the teaching
advertisements in all the Buenos Aires tango magazines. Whether you
like it or not, Milonguero Style is one of the more common names given.
While you see every style in Buenos Aires (especially from
foreigners) it is a bit hard to find milongas in Buenos Aires that
are not predominantly milonguero, i.e. rhythmic, close-embrace. I
have asked Sergio several times to supply a list of milongas where
classic salon (contrasted from the rhythmic, close-embrace with lots
of ocho cortados) is the majority style, but he hasn't reported on them.
Likewise, how many milongas in B.A. have a majority of nuevo dancers?
There must be a few?
> I think you know very well that you should be calling what you teach
> "Apilado" o "Del Centro" but you desperately hang on to the
> "Milonguero "
> label to imply that you are the "real thing", "the authentic one"
> and the
> next guy is NOT .
> Others like you do the same thing with the labels "Close embrace"
> or "Buenos
> Aires style". Shame on them and you. You are excluding and offending
> millions of milongueros, who never danced such style. Not now, not
> in the
> Golden ages, not in Buenos Aires, not anywhere . Anybody who doubts
> this,
> can refer to Pepito Avellaneda's videos or discuss the issue with
> living
> legend milongueros Facundo Posadas or Julio Balmaceda, to name just
> two.
> Salon and Nuevo, like it or not, are also "social ", were also
> created
> (Salon, half a century before the so called "milonguero") and are
> danced in
> Buenos Aires, depending on which Milonga you attend, and can also
> be danced
> in close embrace, even closer.
> ...
> Gabriel
You are QEO: Quite Easily Offended by Ron's use of the term Milonguero.
I'm not sure who or how the word milonguero offends. I don't know
about the rest of Latin America... which countries are you thinking
of? In Buenos Aires the term historically has had a pejorative
connotation, as in a layabout who sleeps all day, doesn't work and
spends all their nights dancing and chasing women.
Julio Balmaceda is a great tango dancer, but I don't think legendary
is the appropriate adjective. I would reserve legendary for tango
dancers like Juilo's father, Miguel Balmaceda. This isn't a criticism
of J.B. It is a criticism of the excessive hyperbole used to
advertise various teachers. It sometimes seems the lesser the dancer,
the greater the superlative, and JB reputation is quite sufficient;
he doesn't need excessive superlatives.
Nor would you call Juilo a milonguero, by lifestyle (as you defined
the word) or dance style (as so many others define it). Yes, Julio
goes out performing and teaching all the time, but not necessarily
partying, dancing and wenching all the time. I don't think Julio
would call himself a milonguero.
> I agree with you and Tom that we all must use judgement to
> adjust to
> circumstances and context, but that has absolutely nothing to do
> with style.
> Horrendeous navigation come in all styles and is more a matter of
> attitude
> rather than skills or lack thereof.
> To lift your partner over yor head or have her hanging around your
> waist I
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 00:18:40 -0500
From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340607122218l48dd4c0ajd0f340e4e00da41c@mail.gmail.com>
Go back and read my original message. You are reading into it some
things I did not say. I made no claims about 'milonguero' style. I
specifically used the terms 'social tango', listing 'milonguero' as
one of these styles. Whether one likes the term or not, it is widely
used to describe a particular style of tango. Yes, it is the style I
teach. But that's not the issue I raised. It is one you raised.
On 7/12/06, El Mundo del Tango <mail@elmundodeltango.com> wrote:
> Ron...If you understood Argentine culture as well as you claim to, you
> would know that "Milonguero" is simply someone who goes partying and dancing
> all the time, for social purposes, whatever style he or she dances.
> The word is used all over Southamerica , is not exclusive of Argentina and
> it may have nothing to do with Tango, depending on context.
> I think you know very well that you should be calling what you teach
> "Apilado" o "Del Centro" but you desperately hang on to the "Milonguero "
> label to imply that you are the "real thing", "the authentic one" and the
> next guy is NOT .
> Others like you do the same thing with the labels "Close embrace" or "Buenos
> Aires style". Shame on them and you. You are excluding and offending
> millions of milongueros, who never danced such style. Not now, not in the
> Golden ages, not in Buenos Aires, not anywhere . Anybody who doubts this,
> can refer to Pepito Avellaneda's videos or discuss the issue with living
> legend milongueros Facundo Posadas or Julio Balmaceda, to name just two.
> Salon and Nuevo, like it or not, are also "social ", were also created
> (Salon, half a century before the so called "milonguero") and are danced in
> Buenos Aires, depending on which Milonga you attend, and can also be danced
> in close embrace, even closer.
> I agree with you and Tom that we all must use judgement to adjust to
> circumstances and context, but that has absolutely nothing to do with style.
> Horrendeous navigation come in all styles and is more a matter of attitude
> rather than skills or lack thereof.
> To lift your partner over yor head or have her hanging around your waist I
> agree is not "social", but I heard the same thing said about boleos,
> sacadas, enrosques, colgadas, etc. It sounds to me, agreeing with Jake, like
> a lame excuse for not making the effort to aquire the skills to be able to
> do them.
>
> Gabriel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
> To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:37 PM
> Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
>
>
> > In Buenos Aires porten~os don't have difficulty separating stage tango
> > and social tango. This is the culture that created tango, so perhaps
> > we should listen.
> >
> > In the early 20th century, Europeans and North Americans had their
> > first exposure to tango. It was as shocking as it was popular, often
> > considered too provocative for euro-norteamericano tastes. So it was
> > sanitized and standardized to fit the cultural norms of the recipient
> > cultures. Thus, today ballroom dance studios teach an American tango
> > where partners at times separate part of the embrace or the
> > International tango with bizarre head-flicking, both danced in a march
> > like fashion to marching music with a strong drum line. This dance is
> > an evolutionary derivative of the tango from Argentina, perhaps much
> > accurately described as a fusion of a foreign form with an indigenous
> > (ballroom) form and it is still called 'tango'.
> >
> > In the 1980s and 90s Tango Argentino and other stage shows introduced
> > Europeans and North Americans to another version of tango - tango
> > fantasia, as it is sometimes called. This type of tango is not
> > normally danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, exposure to
> > the shows created a demand from viewers to learn this type of tango
> > and they did and danced it socially. This learning and further demand
> > was reinforced by continued travel of tango stage performers to the US
> > and Europe to teach. Thus, a modified tango fantasia became the norm
> > at US & European milongas.
> >
> > There are probably several reasons why modified tango fantasia became
> > the standard social form in the US. Part of it is due to a 'founder
> > effect', i.e., it was the part of the Argentine tango culture that was
> > brought to the US. However, tango fantasia also met with acceptance in
> > the US because it blended well within a recipient culture that places
> > a value on exhibition - whether it is dance or sports or motion
> > pictures. We are a culture that enjoys and reinforces visual display.
> >
> > Social (milonguero and other) styles of tango have had a more
> > difficult route of cultural diffusion in the US. As an instructor of
> > the milonguero style in the Midwest US, I have repeatedly encountered
> > resistence against the idea of dancing with maintained chest-to-chest
> > contact. North Americans are uncomfortable with close physical
> > contact. Dancing at a distance and making large conspicuous movements
> > is less personal, less threatening, more comfortable, more consistent
> > with our culture.
> >
> > This is not to say that tango fantasia is bad or somehow inherently
> > evil. When done well on the stage, it is an art form to be admired. It
> > requires great skill. It is great entertainment. However, on the
> > social dance floor, it can be dangerous. Stop talking about all the
> > fantasia dancers who respect the line of dance. They are few and far
> > between. More likely to be encountered are dancers with limited skills
> > who cannot navigate well and are a collision danger to other dancers.
> > I've had to learn defensive navigation on the dance floor because of
> > them.
> >
> > Fantasia is adapted to the stage. Social tango is adapted to the
> > social dance floor.
> >
> > Despite exposure to the social style of tango in the US, there is
> > limited acceptance. I believe one important thing North Americans fail
> > to understand is that one of the unique features of social tango that
> > makes it such a powerful experience that we become addicted to it is
> > that there is connection primarily through the tactile and auditory
> > sensory modalities, not the visual. Tactile connection with partner,
> > auditory with music, with the visual sensory modality used primarily
> > by leaders to navigate so as to not collide with other people on the
> > floor. In what other dance can we maintain an intimate embrace with a
> > partner for 10-15 minutes, synchonizing our brething and heartbeats,
> > bathing in each other's sweat, flowing to passionate music? The
> > porten~os understand this. North Americans have difficulty letting
> > down their defenses enough to experience this.
> >
> > This concept is very foreign to a culture that glorifies exhibition
> > and finds interpersonal contact threatening.
> >
> > So perhaps a modified tango fantasia or the similar 'nuevo' tango will
> > define tango social dancing in the US for a long time to come, much as
> > American Tango and International Tango did previously. But remember,
> > this is not the tango that is danced socially in Buenos Aires. That
> > may or may not mean anything to most US dancers, which is not a
> > surprising revelation, since North Americans are known worldwide for
> > interpreting any cultural product in their own terms. Our inability to
> > understand other cultures is one of the reasons we are considered
> > arrogant and have so much conflict with other cultures all around the
> > world.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
>
>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 23:57:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
So much for elevating the level of discourse on the 'L.
We've degenerated from 7th grade cliquishness to 4th grade
name calling.
To Jake: You lost your cool man, and I thought you were
going to be a voice of reason. So how do "the social
dancers, who move more slowly ? tailgate unnecessarily"
Maybe they really have reached a sublime state, where the
laws of physics no longer apply? More to the point, when
did your definition of social dancers become so narrow?
Finally, D.C. is hardly representative of the US
population. ;) I'm inclined to believe Ron's reports of
Midwest prudity.
To Ron: I sympathize with your complaints, but your use of
the term "social dancing" (even with the parenthetic
modifiers) was still contentious. Whether or not you
intended it, I understood an implied contention that
closeembraceallthetime (if I may borrow a phrase from the
lost and unlamented) is the only social form of tango.
IMHO, the problems Ron identified are not the result of an
anti-social dance style, but rather the result of
anti-social behavior; specifically, a lack of consideration
for the other dancers. Sometimes this reflects a dancer's
lack of character, as when some wanna-be hotshot disrupts
the ronda to perform his latest fantasia parodia. Tom's
anecdote is a perfect example. (Fair warning Jake, an
ex-Pittsburgh narcissist is headed your way.) For the most
part, these cretins are few and far between, and easily
constrained by better dancers. It is far more common for
inconsiderate dancing to reflect a lack of dance skill
rather than a lack of character. One can hardly fault the
hapless beginner if he looses track of the other dancers
whilst trying to adjust to his partner's back cross when he
tried to lead her to cross forward.
And like it or not, unskilled dancers are prevalent in
every style. Thus Jake can match Tom anecdote for anecdote
with improbable stories of close embrace clothes-lining and
the more common close embrace shuffle. Nonetheless, the
mermaid story is more spectacular, since big fast clumsy
moves are a lot more disruptive to the rest of us than
small slow clumsy moves. So, in my imaginary milonga, Jake
and Dani zip around the floor with skill, panache and
grace. A group of one year old dancers try to emulate them
and careen around in an excited state of unbalance and
overcompensation. Ron proceeds at a more dignified pace,
and plays the S.B. ric-tic-tics with skill, panache and
grace. His one year old fans fall in behind him, perhaps
missing some subtleties of contratiempo, and never quite
remembering that they can also turn to the right, but
generally not interfering with anyone else.
My argument then is that social dancing has nothing to do
with style, and everything to do with respecting the other
dancers. Anti-social dancing likewise is never about style,
only rarely about character, and almost always about lack
of skill. Add to that the fact that unskilled close embrace
dancers are less disruptive than unskilled salon, fantasia
or nuevo dancers. My proposed solution is to teach only
close embrace to beginning dancers. When they have
developed sufficient balance, courtesy, common sense, and
maybe even the ability to take an occasional large step,
they might expand into other styles. Or maybe they will
choose to delve more deeply into the close embrace style.
There is a lot of depth there, often underestimated by the
practitioners of the more visual styles.
Social dancing implies dancing with respect for the other
dancers. Could that respect extend to dancers of other
styles? Or is that too radical a thought in these
reactionary times?
Sean
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 16:32:07 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>,
<spatz@tangodc.com>, <tango-L@mit.edu>
Jake wrote:
> > Your nod to "other" styles is peremptory, at best. "They belong on the
> > stage." Meanwhile, here in reality, I've already made the point that the
> > tango has always enjoyed a multiplicity of styles-- social styles.
> > Sergio even backed me up on it,
>
Gabriel "El mundo de tango" saluted:
> YESSS, SIR....
> >
> > As for your points, Tom--
etc.etc.etc.
Gentlemen, I think, it is time for a few Latin jokes.
How do you become a millionaire?
By buying an Argentine for what he is worth, and selling him for what he
thinks he is worth.
and:
"Did you hear about the porte$BP(B who tried to commit suicide by
jumping off his ego?"
you have come to the right place.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:43:22 -0400
From: joanneprochaska@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: tango.society@gmail.com, tango-L@mit.edu
Dear Ron,
Well said !
It will be interesting to see who disagrees with this, and why.
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 5:37 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
In Buenos Aires porten~os don't have difficulty separating stage tango
and social tango. This is the culture that created tango, so perhaps
we should listen.
In the early 20th century, Europeans and North Americans had their
first exposure to tango. It was as shocking as it was popular, often
considered too provocative for euro-norteamericano tastes. So it was
sanitized and standardized to fit the cultural norms of the recipient
cultures. Thus, today ballroom dance studios teach an American tango
where partners at times separate part of the embrace or the
International tango with bizarre head-flicking, both danced in a march
like fashion to marching music with a strong drum line. This dance is
an evolutionary derivative of the tango from Argentina, perhaps much
accurately described as a fusion of a foreign form with an indigenous
(ballroom) form and it is still called 'tango'.
In the 1980s and 90s Tango Argentino and other stage shows introduced
Europeans and North Americans to another version of tango - tango
fantasia, as it is sometimes called. This type of tango is not
normally danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, exposure to
the shows created a demand from viewers to learn this type of tango
and they did and danced it socially. This learning and further demand
was reinforced by continued travel of tango stage performers to the US
and Europe to teach. Thus, a modified tango fantasia became the norm
at US & European milongas.
There are probably several reasons why modified tango fantasia became
the standard social form in the US. Part of it is due to a 'founder
effect', i.e., it was the part of the Argentine tango culture that was
brought to the US. However, tango fantasia also met with acceptance in
the US because it blended well within a recipient culture that places
a value on exhibition - whether it is dance or sports or motion
pictures. We are a culture that enjoys and reinforces visual display.
Social (milonguero and other) styles of tango have had a more
difficult route of cultural diffusion in the US. As an instructor of
the milonguero style in the Midwest US, I have repeatedly encountered
resistence against the idea of dancing with maintained chest-to-chest
contact. North Americans are uncomfortable with close physical
contact. Dancing at a distance and making large conspicuous movements
is less personal, less threatening, more comfortable, more consistent
with our culture.
This is not to say that tango fantasia is bad or somehow inherently
evil. When done well on the stage, it is an art form to be admired. It
requires great skill. It is great entertainment. However, on the
social dance floor, it can be dangerous. Stop talking about all the
fantasia dancers who respect the line of dance. They are few and far
between. More likely to be encountered are dancers with limited skills
who cannot navigate well and are a collision danger to other dancers.
I've had to learn defensive navigation on the dance floor because of
them.
Fantasia is adapted to the stage. Social tango is adapted to the
social dance floor.
Despite exposure to the social style of tango in the US, there is
limited acceptance. I believe one important thing North Americans fail
to understand is that one of the unique features of social tango that
makes it such a powerful experience that we become addicted to it is
that there is connection primarily through the tactile and auditory
sensory modalities, not the visual. Tactile connection with partner,
auditory with music, with the visual sensory modality used primarily
by leaders to navigate so as to not collide with other people on the
floor. In what other dance can we maintain an intimate embrace with a
partner for 10-15 minutes, synchonizing our brething and heartbeats,
bathing in each other's sweat, flowing to passionate music? The
porten~os understand this. North Americans have difficulty letting
down their defenses enough to experience this.
This concept is very foreign to a culture that glorifies exhibition
and finds interpersonal contact threatening.
So perhaps a modified tango fantasia or the similar 'nuevo' tango will
define tango social dancing in the US for a long time to come, much as
American Tango and International Tango did previously. But remember,
this is not the tango that is danced socially in Buenos Aires. That
may or may not mean anything to most US dancers, which is not a
surprising revelation, since North Americans are known worldwide for
interpreting any cultural product in their own terms. Our inability to
understand other cultures is one of the reasons we are considered
arrogant and have so much conflict with other cultures all around the
world.
Ron
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 11:19:03 -0300
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
El Mundo del Tango wrote:
> Ron...If you understood Argentine culture as well as you claim to, you
> would know that "Milonguero" is simply someone who goes partying and dancing
> all the time, for social purposes, whatever style he or she dances.
>
Umm, no. In Buenos Aires, for tango purposes, milongueros are a group
of insiders
who decide who is and isn't a milonguero. Who is and isn't a milonguero
makes no
sense to outsiders, but they all know who is and isn't.
> The word is used all over Southamerica , is not exclusive of Argentina and
> it may have nothing to do with Tango, depending on context.
We know the term arose in Buenos Aires, and Argentine Spanish has evolved
very independently of Spanish in the rest of South America. No other
country
uses "vos", for example.
Are there Colombians, Venezuelans, etc, on the list that can verify for
El Mundo?
> I think you know very well that you should be calling what you teach
> "Apilado" o "Del Centro" but you desperately hang on to the "Milonguero "
> label to imply that you are the "real thing", "the authentic one" and the
> next guy is NOT .
>
He did say social, not milonguero.
And trust me, they use the term milonguero to describe a way of dancing
in Buenos Aires. I danced a song with a singer and dancer/teacher who
was the daughter of a famous milonguero, and she told me I "dance as a
milonguero". And Marta Fama, one of the best dancers in Buenos Aires
teaches "Milonguero Style".
> Others like you do the same thing with the labels "Close embrace" or "Buenos
> Aires style". Shame on them and you. You are excluding and offending
> millions of milongueros, who never danced such style. Not now, not in the
> Golden ages, not in Buenos Aires, not anywhere.
Umm, I'm here in Buenos Aires now. I respect the few good open
embrace dancers around, but in the last month I have seen exactly
3 Portenos dancing open; one's more of a well known character in
the milongas here, and not considered a real dancer at all, and the
other 2 were miserably bad, by any definition.
With all due respect to the nice people at Villa Malcolm and all, the
overwhelming majority of dancers here dance in close embrace or
so close as to make no difference at all in technique. If the old farts
around here are the leftovers of the Golden Age, then where are all
the open embrace people?
> Anybody who doubts this,
> can refer to Pepito Avellaneda's videos
I know 2 people who studied from Pepito for years (including one who has
almost all his steps from him). In most social situations, they dance
close.
I've seen exceptions, but that was a tiny barrio milonga (less than 40
people
there) in Avellenada with little old ladies, most of whom were not good
dancers at all.
In Buenos Aires, very often dancing open is a survival tactic for dealing
with partners who don't have good equilibrium, or good control of their
bodies. And little old ladies who've never danced tango are often squeamish
about dancing close, even here.
> or discuss the issue with living
> legend milongueros Facundo Posadas or Julio Balmaceda, to name just two.
>
In Buenos Aires, they dance close embrace in the milongas, just like
everyone else. They wouldn't dream of arrogating the space for
anything else.
Theres a difference. In the milongas, it's social dancing, and in 99%
of all cases I've seen, social means close. On videos, or demonstrations
that's performancedance, not social.
Also, I've seen hours of Julio Balmaceda video, and he is pretty much
a close embrace all the time guy.
> Salon and Nuevo, like it or not, are also "social ", were also created
> (Salon, half a century before the so called "milonguero") and are danced in
> Buenos Aires, depending on which Milonga you attend, and can also be danced
> in close embrace, even closer.
>
There are no Nuevo milongas here. They have some practicas to go to.
And milonguero style dates back to the D'Arienzo revival of tango in 1935.
> To lift your partner over yor head or have her hanging around your waist I
> agree is not "social", but I heard the same thing said about boleos,
> sacadas, enrosques, colgadas, etc.
Never heard that said about enrosques; sacadas are a staple item in
Buenos Aires. My teacher here in Buenos Aires is teaching me giros
with sacadas and something so similar to the enrosque it might as well be
an enrosque, and he's a milonguero.
Big flashy boleos are flat out dangerous in close quarters, its not a habit
you should acquire unless you like starting fights. Much better to make
boleos a occasional thing.
In general, things happening outside the circle of the embrace are
unsuited for social dance. They should not be something you do by
default.
> It sounds to me, agreeing with Jake, like
> a lame excuse for not making the effort to aquire the skills to be able to
> do them.
We've had the all distances discussion. Now I guess we'll have
the all steps discussion. Same bullshit, different people.
Musical interpretation is more important than maximizing vocabulary
any day of the week.
> I agree with you and Tom that we all must use judgement to adjust to
> circumstances and context, but that has absolutely nothing to do with style.
>
On the surface no. But "Milonguero" is built around navigation in tight
spots.
Salon, Fantasia and Nuevo aren't. People teaching milonguero style in the
(including myself) only teach beginners things that won't get them in
trouble.
> Horrendeous navigation come in all styles and is more a matter of attitude
> rather than skills or lack thereof.
>
People that can't do an instant 180 on a dime can't navigate. That is a
necessary skill. So is closely regulating how fast you move forward.
So are a few other things. Ocho cortado, knowing what distance to
keep from the guy in front, even musicality is important. Navigation
has a huge skill set.
Christopher
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
> To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:37 PM
> Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
>
>
>
>> In Buenos Aires porten~os don't have difficulty separating stage tango
>> and social tango. This is the culture that created tango, so perhaps
>> we should listen.
>>
>> In the early 20th century, Europeans and North Americans had their
>> first exposure to tango. It was as shocking as it was popular, often
>> considered too provocative for euro-norteamericano tastes. So it was
>> sanitized and standardized to fit the cultural norms of the recipient
>> cultures. Thus, today ballroom dance studios teach an American tango
>> where partners at times separate part of the embrace or the
>> International tango with bizarre head-flicking, both danced in a march
>> like fashion to marching music with a strong drum line. This dance is
>> an evolutionary derivative of the tango from Argentina, perhaps much
>> accurately described as a fusion of a foreign form with an indigenous
>> (ballroom) form and it is still called 'tango'.
>>
>> In the 1980s and 90s Tango Argentino and other stage shows introduced
>> Europeans and North Americans to another version of tango - tango
>> fantasia, as it is sometimes called. This type of tango is not
>> normally danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, exposure to
>> the shows created a demand from viewers to learn this type of tango
>> and they did and danced it socially. This learning and further demand
>> was reinforced by continued travel of tango stage performers to the US
>> and Europe to teach. Thus, a modified tango fantasia became the norm
>> at US & European milongas.
>>
>> There are probably several reasons why modified tango fantasia became
>> the standard social form in the US. Part of it is due to a 'founder
>> effect', i.e., it was the part of the Argentine tango culture that was
>> brought to the US. However, tango fantasia also met with acceptance in
>> the US because it blended well within a recipient culture that places
>> a value on exhibition - whether it is dance or sports or motion
>> pictures. We are a culture that enjoys and reinforces visual display.
>>
>> Social (milonguero and other) styles of tango have had a more
>> difficult route of cultural diffusion in the US. As an instructor of
>> the milonguero style in the Midwest US, I have repeatedly encountered
>> resistence against the idea of dancing with maintained chest-to-chest
>> contact. North Americans are uncomfortable with close physical
>> contact. Dancing at a distance and making large conspicuous movements
>> is less personal, less threatening, more comfortable, more consistent
>> with our culture.
>>
>> This is not to say that tango fantasia is bad or somehow inherently
>> evil. When done well on the stage, it is an art form to be admired. It
>> requires great skill. It is great entertainment. However, on the
>> social dance floor, it can be dangerous. Stop talking about all the
>> fantasia dancers who respect the line of dance. They are few and far
>> between. More likely to be encountered are dancers with limited skills
>> who cannot navigate well and are a collision danger to other dancers.
>> I've had to learn defensive navigation on the dance floor because of
>> them.
>>
>> Fantasia is adapted to the stage. Social tango is adapted to the
>> social dance floor.
>>
>> Despite exposure to the social style of tango in the US, there is
>> limited acceptance. I believe one important thing North Americans fail
>> to understand is that one of the unique features of social tango that
>> makes it such a powerful experience that we become addicted to it is
>> that there is connection primarily through the tactile and auditory
>> sensory modalities, not the visual. Tactile connection with partner,
>> auditory with music, with the visual sensory modality used primarily
>> by leaders to navigate so as to not collide with other people on the
>> floor. In what other dance can we maintain an intimate embrace with a
>> partner for 10-15 minutes, synchonizing our brething and heartbeats,
>> bathing in each other's sweat, flowing to passionate music? The
>> porten~os understand this. North Americans have difficulty letting
>> down their defenses enough to experience this.
>>
>> This concept is very foreign to a culture that glorifies exhibition
>> and finds interpersonal contact threatening.
>>
>> So perhaps a modified tango fantasia or the similar 'nuevo' tango will
>> define tango social dancing in the US for a long time to come, much as
>> American Tango and International Tango did previously. But remember,
>> this is not the tango that is danced socially in Buenos Aires. That
>> may or may not mean anything to most US dancers, which is not a
>> surprising revelation, since North Americans are known worldwide for
>> interpreting any cultural product in their own terms. Our inability to
>> understand other cultures is one of the reasons we are considered
>> arrogant and have so much conflict with other cultures all around the
>> world.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 07:39:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
--- Sean wrote:
> ...My proposed solution is to teach only
> close embrace to beginning dancers. When they have
> developed sufficient balance, courtesy, common
> sense, and maybe even the ability to take an
> occasional large step...
Could you please teach them at the same time to avoid
blocking the ronda? The remark someone just made
about self-absorbed dancers (of whatever persuasion)
is right on target. The sooner you can get the
leaders interested in the flow of the ronda, the
better - even if it means the occasional brief loss of
concentration on their partners, their own emotions,
or their own feet. On a smallish floor where there is
not much room to maneuver, one determined-to-creep
dancer can choke the entire ronda if he insists on
walking right along the "white line" of what would be
two lanes of dancers. Two of them can stop it dead.
It doesn't contradict this observation to say that you
can always get around a creeper, if getting around him
means you have to swing out into the center of the
floor, which is reasonably occupied by those who want
to stand still while their partners' heels fly through
the air.
I beg you - if you want to crawl in the same way to
all music, have some regard for those of us who want
to move along when the music is moving.
Marisa
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:51:27 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
At some races they may even offer a bottle of champagne at the end of
the race for the jockey who crosses the finish line first.
On Jul 13, 2006, at 8:39 AM, Marisa Holmes wrote:
> --- Sean wrote:
>
>> ...My proposed solution is to teach only
>> close embrace to beginning dancers. When they have
>> developed sufficient balance, courtesy, common
>> sense, and maybe even the ability to take an
>> occasional large step...
>
> Could you please teach them at the same time to avoid
> blocking the ronda? The remark someone just made
> about self-absorbed dancers (of whatever persuasion)
> ...I beg you - if you want to crawl in the same way to
> all music, have some regard for those of us who want
> to move along when the music is moving.
>
> Marisa
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 03:20:28 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net
Tom wrote:
At some races they may even offer a bottle of champagne at
> the end of the race for the jockey who crosses the
> finish line first.
Tom:
It's ironic that you would write about a horse race because
there's a tango that reminds me of the running of the
Kentucky Derby. I'll have to look up the name the next time
I hear it. Right now, my knowledge of musical selections is
limited to "I know that tango. That's #5 on the Di Sarli
disk."
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Getting a prescription for Adramamine so I won't get sea
sick when the NY Tango Festival sets sail on the Staten
Island Ferry July 27 4PM from Whitehall Terminal
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 00:20:16 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>, "Tango-L"
Argentine Spanish has evolved
> very independently of Spanish in the rest of South America. No other
> country
> uses "vos", for example.
>From what I know, "vos" is not really an independent form of Spanish that
evolved in Argentina but rather a leftover of the Castilian language from
another era, that was brought over from Spain.
Maybe like the Germans living in some enclaves in Russia speak a form of
German that was used in Germany a hundred years ago, and evolved
independently from there.
Sergio?
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 00:23:04 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>, "Tom Stermitz"
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net
Michael wrote:
> Tom:
> It's ironic that you would write about a horse race because
> there's a tango that reminds me of the running of the
> Kentucky Derby.
Por una cabeza? No? (That's by Gardel, I think)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 03:58:11 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>, "Tom Stermitz"
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net
> Michael wrote:
> > Tom:
> > It's ironic that you would write about a horse race
> > because there's a tango that reminds me of the running
> > of the Kentucky Derby.
>
> Por una cabeza? No? (That's by Gardel, I think)
No, Astrid. The music sounds like a horse race. Por Una
Cabeza doesn't sound like a horse race. Yes, the lyrics
suggest a horse race. I'm referring to the melody.
Michael
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:01:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> At some races they may even offer a bottle of
> champagne at the end of the race for the jockey who
> crosses the finish line first.
Yup. I suppose it would be funny, except that there's
nothing especially amusing about folks who dance in a
way that expresses their feeling for the music
perfectly, but which keeps other who do not have the
exact same feeling from expressing theirs. I've said
it before, and I'll say it again: the person who
interprets all music as requiring little tiny steps
and nearly closed eyes is not listening to the music.
The person who creeps even when the floor is open and
a vals is playing is not giving themself or their
partner a chance to experience different types of
music in different ways. And the person who insists
on blocking the ronda because they believe in their
heart of hearts that everyone else should dance they
way they do has been brainwashed.
It is sufficient to despise those who dance
differently from you - it is not necessary to
interfere with them.
Marisa
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:06:57 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
Vos is also used by Ecuadoreans, at least in Quito. It's a contraction of
"vuestra merced" or "your mercy".
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
>To: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>, "Tango-L"
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 00:20:16 +0900
>
>
>Argentine Spanish has evolved
> > very independently of Spanish in the rest of South America. No other
> > country
> > uses "vos", for example.
>
> >From what I know, "vos" is not really an independent form of Spanish that
>evolved in Argentina but rather a leftover of the Castilian language from
>another era, that was brought over from Spain.
>Maybe like the Germans living in some enclaves in Russia speak a form of
>German that was used in Germany a hundred years ago, and evolved
>independently from there.
>
>Sergio?
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:11:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
At some races they may even offer a bottle of champagne at
the end of the race for the jockey who crosses the finish
line first.
>
Sean again. Marisa's comment is fair and to the point. The
convention in tango is that the dance progresses around the
floor in a clockwise direction. If there is a gap in front
of one dancer, and a jumble of people behind him, then he
is a problem. Either he doesn't know how to dance socially,
or he doesn't care about the other dancers.
It is not my intention to defend close embrace roadblocks.
Rather, I contend that they are [1] less likely to injure
another dancer (if you can avoid splitting your knuckles
against his skull) and [2] easier to get around than open
embrace roadblocks.
To Marisa: The guy walking the line between 2 lanes can
probably be temporarily corrected with a friendly word or
two. After 3 or 4 weeks of nonconfrontational correction,
it might even become a lasting improvement. (He is not
going to learn how to move without taking some actual
classes, but at least you might get him to block only a
single lane.) I doubt very much that there is any hope of
making a social dancer out of the mermaid guy, who is
easily blocking 3 or more lanes.
I also agree whole heartedly with Marisa's critique of
people who move in the same way to very different music,
except that I am not so generous as to regard that as
dancing. Intermediate and advanced dancers of any style
express the music. (That's a priori. In my definition, if
you don't express the music, you are a beginner, even with
10 years of experience doing steps.) In my experience,
close embrace dancers learn musicality much faster than the
other styles (weeks vs. years). Probably because they don't
spend as much time learning vocabulary (a fair trade off in
my mind).
Sean
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 11:47:11 -0600
From: "Ruddy Zelaya" <ruddy@milongas.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Christopher,
on a pedantic note... (ahem) this is not correct. Nicarag?enses,
for example, use the "vos" just like in Argentina, i.e., badly
since "vos" is a contraction of "vosotros" and it is being used
as the second person singular familiar form (e.g., you) while
vosotros is the second person plural form (e.g., y'all).
But what the hell, whatever makes us different from the
"gallegos" is a good thing... :-)
--
ruddy
Christopher L. Everett wrote:
>>No other country uses "vos", for example.
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:07:15 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: ruddy@milongas.com, ceverett@ceverett.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
It's a Southern thing..... They wouldn't understand. LOL
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: "Ruddy Zelaya" <ruddy@milongas.com>
>To: <ceverett@ceverett.com>
>CC: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
>Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 11:47:11 -0600
>
>Hi Christopher,
> on a pedantic note... (ahem) this is not correct. Nicarag|enses,
>for example, use the "vos" just like in Argentina, i.e., badly
>since "vos" is a contraction of "vosotros" and it is being used
>as the second person singular familiar form (e.g., you) while
>vosotros is the second person plural form (e.g., y'all).
>But what the hell, whatever makes us different from the
>"gallegos" is a good thing... :-)
>--
>ruddy
>
>Christopher L. Everett wrote:
> >>No other country uses "vos", for example.
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:55 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Jake, "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com> wrote:
> The majority of those who dance open, from what I have seen with my own
> eyes, are not actually hazardous on the floor, despite the fact that less
> experienced dancers are, from time to time, afraid of their speed.
Reminds me of the German guy hereabouts who uses the opportunity afforded
by the first few bars of music before the ronda starts moving to weave a
few laps ahdead of all us slow-poke "closeys".
He's nicknamed the Porsche Driver. Are we afraid of his speed? Oh yesss...
> The problematic "closeys," however, are nearly impossible to deal with.
> ... If I dance fast and open, I can dodge them much more easily.
Hmm... so if you dance /really/ fast you can dodge even those tricky
stationary objects such as pillars and tables?
Sort of "General Theory of Tango Relativity"... in reverse <smile!>
Chris
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:59:32 -0700
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "Tom Stermitz" <stermitz@tango.org>, <tango-L@mit.edu>
> Ron...If you understood Argentine culture as well as you claim
> to, you
> would know that "Milonguero" is simply someone who goes partying
> and dancing
> all the time, for social purposes, whatever style he or she dances.
> The word is used all over Southamerica , is not exclusive of
> Argentina and
> it may have nothing to do with Tango, depending on context.
<<Gabriel, you need to travel more. Get out of San Diego. Southern
California is a trap, and it eats at your soul.>>
I travel very often, Tom, including to your great Festivals in Denver. Thank
you for your concern.
And if you are saying, (not sure), that Southern California is Tangowise
behind other areas of the USA, I agree, but that is not the point.
<<Obviously (if you have spent any time in Buenos Aires), the word
milonguero is the most common term for the rhythmic, close-embrace
style of dance typical of numerous milongas in Buenos Aires. >>
Sure is the most common term everywhere . That does not mean is right or
correct or harmless. It is the most common term NOW because its promoters
have used it and abused it to give themselves a bath of "glamour and
legitimacy" while between the lines throwing dirt on everybody else.
<<I have
sometimes heard this style refered to as apilado (?), or confiteria
(?), or estilo del centro (Lapadula), or club style (Arquimbau),>>
Arquimbau and Lapadula are nice men. They do not want to claim a word that
belongs NOT to them, but to all of us.
<<but
those seem to be personal names for the same thing, not generally
accepted ones.>>
Accepted by who? Its promoters? Of course they prefer "Milonguero". It works
better, but it is a lie. The meaning of the word is not related to style
whatsoever.
<<I've never heard of the tango style you call "Buenos Aires Style".>>
Not me, Tom...Some of the same people who call it "milonguero". It is
another dirty semantic trick to strenghten the idea that they are the "real
thing".
They also claim is the most popular in BsAs and festivals
all over the world. They take advantage of the untrained eye beginners, who
confusse it with Salon in close embrace. Don't believe me? You should travel
to Southern California more often....
<<To me, apilado is more of a descriptive than a style. Maybe it is
similar to the english term close-embrace.
Contrary to your claim, the term "Milonguero Style" is definately used to
name the style useful for crowded floors with fewer pivoting
ochos and frequent use of ocho cortados. Tango de Salon in Buenos
Aires pretty much means social style tango (without reference to
specific details) while Salon Style Tango in the US usually means the
slightly open style emphasizing pivoting ochos, circular molinetes,
sacadas, etc.
It may be that Susana Miller coined the term Milonguero Style, but it is
quite widespread these days. For example, see the teaching advertisements
in all the Buenos Aires tango magazines. Whether you
like it or not, Milonguero Style is one of the more common names given.
While you see every style in Buenos Aires (especially from foreigners) it
is a bit hard to find milongas in Buenos Aires that are not predominantly
milonguero, i.e. rhythmic, close-embrace.>>
You seem to be implying that Salon is not close embrace and is not
rhythmic...are you?
<<I have asked Sergio several times to supply a list of milongas where
classic salon (contrasted from the rhythmic, close-embrace with lots
of ocho cortados) is the majority style, but he hasn't reported on them.>>
If he had, most people in the US AND in Bs As would not believe him
because they have been fooled into thinking that anything in close embrace
is the so called "milonguero".Hopefully, you are not one of those people,
Tom.
Gabriel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
> On Jul 12, 2006, at 9:43 PM, El Mundo del Tango wrote:
>
>> Ron...If you understood Argentine culture as well as you claim
>> to, you
>> would know that "Milonguero" is simply someone who goes partying
>> and dancing
>> all the time, for social purposes, whatever style he or she dances.
>> The word is used all over Southamerica , is not exclusive of
>> Argentina and
>> it may have nothing to do with Tango, depending on context.
>
> Gabriel, you need to travel more. Get out of San Diego. Southern
> California is a trap, and it eats at your soul.
>
>
> Obviously (if you have spent any time in Buenos Aires), the word
> milonguero is the most common term for the rhythmic, close-embrace
> style of dance typical of numerous milongas in Buenos Aires. I have
> sometimes heard this style refered to as apilado (?), or confiteria
> (?), or estilo del centro (Lapadula), or club style (Arquimbau), but
> those seem to be personal names for the same thing, not generally
> accepted ones.
>
> I've never heard of the tango style you call "Buenos Aires Style".
>
> To me, apilado is more of a descriptive than a style. Maybe it is
> similar to the english term close-embrace.
>
> Contrary to your claim, the term "Milonguero Style" is definately
> used to name the style useful for crowded floors with fewer pivoting
> ochos and frequent use of ocho cortados. Tango de Salon in Buenos
> Aires pretty much means social style tango (without reference to
> specific details) while Salon Style Tango in the US usually means the
> slightly open style emphasizing pivoting ochos, circular molinetes,
> sacadas, etc.
>
> It may be that Susana Miller coined the term Milonguero Style, but it
> is quite widespread these days. For example, see the teaching
> advertisements in all the Buenos Aires tango magazines. Whether you
> like it or not, Milonguero Style is one of the more common names given.
>
> While you see every style in Buenos Aires (especially from
> foreigners) it is a bit hard to find milongas in Buenos Aires that
> are not predominantly milonguero, i.e. rhythmic, close-embrace. I
> have asked Sergio several times to supply a list of milongas where
> classic salon (contrasted from the rhythmic, close-embrace with lots
> of ocho cortados) is the majority style, but he hasn't reported on them.
>
> Likewise, how many milongas in B.A. have a majority of nuevo dancers?
> There must be a few?
>
>
>> I think you know very well that you should be calling what you teach
>> "Apilado" o "Del Centro" but you desperately hang on to the
>> "Milonguero "
>> label to imply that you are the "real thing", "the authentic one"
>> and the
>> next guy is NOT .
>> Others like you do the same thing with the labels "Close embrace"
>> or "Buenos
>> Aires style". Shame on them and you. You are excluding and offending
>> millions of milongueros, who never danced such style. Not now, not
>> in the
>> Golden ages, not in Buenos Aires, not anywhere . Anybody who doubts
>> this,
>> can refer to Pepito Avellaneda's videos or discuss the issue with
>> living
>> legend milongueros Facundo Posadas or Julio Balmaceda, to name just
>> two.
>> Salon and Nuevo, like it or not, are also "social ", were also
>> created
>> (Salon, half a century before the so called "milonguero") and are
>> danced in
>> Buenos Aires, depending on which Milonga you attend, and can also
>> be danced
>> in close embrace, even closer.
>> ...
>> Gabriel
>
>
> You are QEO: Quite Easily Offended by Ron's use of the term Milonguero.
>
> I'm not sure who or how the word milonguero offends. I don't know
> about the rest of Latin America... which countries are you thinking
> of? In Buenos Aires the term historically has had a pejorative
> connotation, as in a layabout who sleeps all day, doesn't work and
> spends all their nights dancing and chasing women.
>
> Julio Balmaceda is a great tango dancer, but I don't think legendary
> is the appropriate adjective. I would reserve legendary for tango
> dancers like Juilo's father, Miguel Balmaceda. This isn't a criticism
> of J.B. It is a criticism of the excessive hyperbole used to
> advertise various teachers. It sometimes seems the lesser the dancer,
> the greater the superlative, and JB reputation is quite sufficient;
> he doesn't need excessive superlatives.
>
> Nor would you call Juilo a milonguero, by lifestyle (as you defined
> the word) or dance style (as so many others define it). Yes, Julio
> goes out performing and teaching all the time, but not necessarily
> partying, dancing and wenching all the time. I don't think Julio
> would call himself a milonguero.
>
>
>> I agree with you and Tom that we all must use judgement to
>> adjust to
>> circumstances and context, but that has absolutely nothing to do
>> with style.
>> Horrendeous navigation come in all styles and is more a matter of
>> attitude
>> rather than skills or lack thereof.
>> To lift your partner over yor head or have her hanging around your
>> waist I
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 00:22:13 -0700
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Precisely. "Milonguero " label is used so that no issues have to be raised.
If "Del Centro" label were used for example, then some people would say :
" But wasn't Tango born in the suburbs? ".
Gabriel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
> Go back and read my original message. You are reading into it some
> things I did not say. I made no claims about 'milonguero' style. I
> specifically used the terms 'social tango', listing 'milonguero' as
> one of these styles. Whether one likes the term or not, it is widely
> used to describe a particular style of tango. Yes, it is the style I
> teach. But that's not the issue I raised. It is one you raised.
>
> On 7/12/06, El Mundo del Tango <mail@elmundodeltango.com> wrote:
>> Ron...If you understood Argentine culture as well as you claim to, you
>> would know that "Milonguero" is simply someone who goes partying and
>> dancing
>> all the time, for social purposes, whatever style he or she dances.
>> The word is used all over Southamerica , is not exclusive of Argentina
>> and
>> it may have nothing to do with Tango, depending on context.
>> I think you know very well that you should be calling what you teach
>> "Apilado" o "Del Centro" but you desperately hang on to the "Milonguero
>> "
>> label to imply that you are the "real thing", "the authentic one" and the
>> next guy is NOT .
>> Others like you do the same thing with the labels "Close embrace" or
>> "Buenos
>> Aires style". Shame on them and you. You are excluding and offending
>> millions of milongueros, who never danced such style. Not now, not in
>> the
>> Golden ages, not in Buenos Aires, not anywhere . Anybody who doubts this,
>> can refer to Pepito Avellaneda's videos or discuss the issue with living
>> legend milongueros Facundo Posadas or Julio Balmaceda, to name just two.
>> Salon and Nuevo, like it or not, are also "social ", were also created
>> (Salon, half a century before the so called "milonguero") and are danced
>> in
>> Buenos Aires, depending on which Milonga you attend, and can also be
>> danced
>> in close embrace, even closer.
>> I agree with you and Tom that we all must use judgement to adjust to
>> circumstances and context, but that has absolutely nothing to do with
>> style.
>> Horrendeous navigation come in all styles and is more a matter of
>> attitude
>> rather than skills or lack thereof.
>> To lift your partner over yor head or have her hanging around your waist
>> I
>> agree is not "social", but I heard the same thing said about boleos,
>> sacadas, enrosques, colgadas, etc. It sounds to me, agreeing with Jake,
>> like
>> a lame excuse for not making the effort to aquire the skills to be able
>> to
>> do them.
>>
>> Gabriel
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
>> To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:37 PM
>> Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
>>
>>
>> > In Buenos Aires porten~os don't have difficulty separating stage tango
>> > and social tango. This is the culture that created tango, so perhaps
>> > we should listen.
>> >
>> > In the early 20th century, Europeans and North Americans had their
>> > first exposure to tango. It was as shocking as it was popular, often
>> > considered too provocative for euro-norteamericano tastes. So it was
>> > sanitized and standardized to fit the cultural norms of the recipient
>> > cultures. Thus, today ballroom dance studios teach an American tango
>> > where partners at times separate part of the embrace or the
>> > International tango with bizarre head-flicking, both danced in a march
>> > like fashion to marching music with a strong drum line. This dance is
>> > an evolutionary derivative of the tango from Argentina, perhaps much
>> > accurately described as a fusion of a foreign form with an indigenous
>> > (ballroom) form and it is still called 'tango'.
>> >
>> > In the 1980s and 90s Tango Argentino and other stage shows introduced
>> > Europeans and North Americans to another version of tango - tango
>> > fantasia, as it is sometimes called. This type of tango is not
>> > normally danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, exposure to
>> > the shows created a demand from viewers to learn this type of tango
>> > and they did and danced it socially. This learning and further demand
>> > was reinforced by continued travel of tango stage performers to the US
>> > and Europe to teach. Thus, a modified tango fantasia became the norm
>> > at US & European milongas.
>> >
>> > There are probably several reasons why modified tango fantasia became
>> > the standard social form in the US. Part of it is due to a 'founder
>> > effect', i.e., it was the part of the Argentine tango culture that was
>> > brought to the US. However, tango fantasia also met with acceptance in
>> > the US because it blended well within a recipient culture that places
>> > a value on exhibition - whether it is dance or sports or motion
>> > pictures. We are a culture that enjoys and reinforces visual display.
>> >
>> > Social (milonguero and other) styles of tango have had a more
>> > difficult route of cultural diffusion in the US. As an instructor of
>> > the milonguero style in the Midwest US, I have repeatedly encountered
>> > resistence against the idea of dancing with maintained chest-to-chest
>> > contact. North Americans are uncomfortable with close physical
>> > contact. Dancing at a distance and making large conspicuous movements
>> > is less personal, less threatening, more comfortable, more consistent
>> > with our culture.
>> >
>> > This is not to say that tango fantasia is bad or somehow inherently
>> > evil. When done well on the stage, it is an art form to be admired. It
>> > requires great skill. It is great entertainment. However, on the
>> > social dance floor, it can be dangerous. Stop talking about all the
>> > fantasia dancers who respect the line of dance. They are few and far
>> > between. More likely to be encountered are dancers with limited skills
>> > who cannot navigate well and are a collision danger to other dancers.
>> > I've had to learn defensive navigation on the dance floor because of
>> > them.
>> >
>> > Fantasia is adapted to the stage. Social tango is adapted to the
>> > social dance floor.
>> >
>> > Despite exposure to the social style of tango in the US, there is
>> > limited acceptance. I believe one important thing North Americans fail
>> > to understand is that one of the unique features of social tango that
>> > makes it such a powerful experience that we become addicted to it is
>> > that there is connection primarily through the tactile and auditory
>> > sensory modalities, not the visual. Tactile connection with partner,
>> > auditory with music, with the visual sensory modality used primarily
>> > by leaders to navigate so as to not collide with other people on the
>> > floor. In what other dance can we maintain an intimate embrace with a
>> > partner for 10-15 minutes, synchonizing our brething and heartbeats,
>> > bathing in each other's sweat, flowing to passionate music? The
>> > porten~os understand this. North Americans have difficulty letting
>> > down their defenses enough to experience this.
>> >
>> > This concept is very foreign to a culture that glorifies exhibition
>> > and finds interpersonal contact threatening.
>> >
>> > So perhaps a modified tango fantasia or the similar 'nuevo' tango will
>> > define tango social dancing in the US for a long time to come, much as
>> > American Tango and International Tango did previously. But remember,
>> > this is not the tango that is danced socially in Buenos Aires. That
>> > may or may not mean anything to most US dancers, which is not a
>> > surprising revelation, since North Americans are known worldwide for
>> > interpreting any cultural product in their own terms. Our inability to
>> > understand other cultures is one of the reasons we are considered
>> > arrogant and have so much conflict with other cultures all around the
>> > world.
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 01:16:57 -0700
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>, "Tango-L"
<<Umm, no. In Buenos Aires, for tango purposes, milongueros are a group of
insiders
who decide who is and isn't a milonguero. Who is and isn't a milonguero
makes no sense to outsiders, but they all know who is and isn't.>>
I was taking about what the word means , not secret handshakes into a club
for the "friends of the friends"
<<We know the term arose in Buenos Aires, and Argentine Spanish has evolved
very independently of Spanish in the rest of South America. >>
No. It was used long before a Tango context, Buenos Aires or not, ever
existed. You go to cocktail parties, salsa, whatever, all the time..you are
a milonguero.
<<We don't know No other
country uses "vos", for example.>>
Wrong again. It is used in Uruguay, Southern Paraguay, Peru, Guatemala,
Panama and some parts of Colombia and Costa Rica.
<<Are there Colombians, Venezuelans, etc, on the list that can verify for
El Mundo?>>
Yours truly from Uruguay and many others not near the keyboard at the
moment.
<<He did say social, not milonguero.>>
No. He said he teaches "milonguero style".
<<And trust me, they use the term milonguero to describe a way of dancing
in Buenos Aires. I danced a song with a singer and dancer/teacher who
was the daughter of a famous milonguero, and she told me I "dance as a
milonguero". And Marta Fama, one of the best dancers in Buenos Aires
teaches "Milonguero Style".>>
I trust you. You are missing my point.
<<Umm, I'm here in Buenos Aires now. I respect the few good open
embrace dancers around, but in the last month I have seen exactly
3 Portenos dancing open; one's more of a well known character in
the milongas here, and not considered a real dancer at all, and the
other 2 were miserably bad, by any definition.>>
You are confussing Close embrace Salon with the so called " Milonguero"
<<With all due respect to the nice people at Villa Malcolm and all, the
overwhelming majority of dancers here dance in close embrace or so close as
to make no difference at all in technique. If the old farts
around here are the leftovers of the Golden Age, then where are all the open
embrace people?>>
There are no Close embrace people or open embrace people. There are Tango
people who dance authentic Salon Style Tango, close or distant according to
the circumstances, and are constantly transitioning between one embrace and
the other, as Sergio explained several times. That does not mean they are
changing "style", as the promoters of the so called "milonguero" style
would like you to believe.
<<I know 2 people who studied from Pepito for years (including one who has
almost all his steps from him). In most social situations, they dance
close.>>
As did Pepito. Salon close, not "milonguero"
<<In Buenos Aires, they dance close embrace in the milongas, just like
everyone else. They wouldn't dream of arrogating the space for anything
else.>>
Yes. Salon close, not "milonguero"
<<Theres a difference. In the milongas, it's social dancing, and in 99% of
all cases I've seen, social means close. >>
Yes. Salon close. Not "milonguero".
<<Also, I've seen hours of Julio Balmaceda video, and he is pretty much a
close embrace all the time guy.>>
Yes. Salon close. Not "milonguero ". And not all the time, depending on
floor conditions.
<<There are no Nuevo milongas here. They have some practicas to go to.>>
That is what I heard about Salon as well, from people who I know cannot tell
one style from the others.
<<And milonguero style dates back to the D'Arienzo revival of tango in
1935.>>
No. It was created in the 60's, for reasons and excuses explained dozens of
times before.
<<Never heard that said about enrosques; sacadas are a staple item in
Buenos Aires. My teacher here in Buenos Aires is teaching me giros with
sacadas and something so similar to the enrosque it might as well be an
enrosque, and he's a milonguero.>>
Good for you.You are in good hands.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
> El Mundo del Tango wrote:
>> Ron...If you understood Argentine culture as well as you claim to, you
>> would know that "Milonguero" is simply someone who goes partying and
>> dancing
>> all the time, for social purposes, whatever style he or she dances.
>>
> Umm, no. In Buenos Aires, for tango purposes, milongueros are a group
> of insiders
> who decide who is and isn't a milonguero. Who is and isn't a milonguero
> makes no
> sense to outsiders, but they all know who is and isn't.
>> The word is used all over Southamerica , is not exclusive of Argentina
>> and
>> it may have nothing to do with Tango, depending on context.
> We know the term arose in Buenos Aires, and Argentine Spanish has evolved
> very independently of Spanish in the rest of South America. No other
> country
> uses "vos", for example.
>
> Are there Colombians, Venezuelans, etc, on the list that can verify for
> El Mundo?
>> I think you know very well that you should be calling what you teach
>> "Apilado" o "Del Centro" but you desperately hang on to the "Milonguero
>> "
>> label to imply that you are the "real thing", "the authentic one" and the
>> next guy is NOT .
>>
> He did say social, not milonguero.
>
> And trust me, they use the term milonguero to describe a way of dancing
> in Buenos Aires. I danced a song with a singer and dancer/teacher who
> was the daughter of a famous milonguero, and she told me I "dance as a
> milonguero". And Marta Fama, one of the best dancers in Buenos Aires
> teaches "Milonguero Style".
>> Others like you do the same thing with the labels "Close embrace" or
>> "Buenos
>> Aires style". Shame on them and you. You are excluding and offending
>> millions of milongueros, who never danced such style. Not now, not in
>> the
>> Golden ages, not in Buenos Aires, not anywhere.
> Umm, I'm here in Buenos Aires now. I respect the few good open
> embrace dancers around, but in the last month I have seen exactly
> 3 Portenos dancing open; one's more of a well known character in
> the milongas here, and not considered a real dancer at all, and the
> other 2 were miserably bad, by any definition.
>
> With all due respect to the nice people at Villa Malcolm and all, the
> overwhelming majority of dancers here dance in close embrace or
> so close as to make no difference at all in technique. If the old farts
> around here are the leftovers of the Golden Age, then where are all
> the open embrace people?
>> Anybody who doubts this,
>> can refer to Pepito Avellaneda's videos
> I know 2 people who studied from Pepito for years (including one who has
> almost all his steps from him). In most social situations, they dance
> close.
> I've seen exceptions, but that was a tiny barrio milonga (less than 40
> people
> there) in Avellenada with little old ladies, most of whom were not good
> dancers at all.
>
> In Buenos Aires, very often dancing open is a survival tactic for dealing
> with partners who don't have good equilibrium, or good control of their
> bodies. And little old ladies who've never danced tango are often
> squeamish
> about dancing close, even here.
>> or discuss the issue with living
>> legend milongueros Facundo Posadas or Julio Balmaceda, to name just two.
>>
> In Buenos Aires, they dance close embrace in the milongas, just like
> everyone else. They wouldn't dream of arrogating the space for
> anything else.
>
> Theres a difference. In the milongas, it's social dancing, and in 99%
> of all cases I've seen, social means close. On videos, or demonstrations
> that's performancedance, not social.
>
> Also, I've seen hours of Julio Balmaceda video, and he is pretty much
> a close embrace all the time guy.
>> Salon and Nuevo, like it or not, are also "social ", were also created
>> (Salon, half a century before the so called "milonguero") and are danced
>> in
>> Buenos Aires, depending on which Milonga you attend, and can also be
>> danced
>> in close embrace, even closer.
>>
> There are no Nuevo milongas here. They have some practicas to go to.
>
> And milonguero style dates back to the D'Arienzo revival of tango in 1935.
>> To lift your partner over yor head or have her hanging around your waist
>> I
>> agree is not "social", but I heard the same thing said about boleos,
>> sacadas, enrosques, colgadas, etc.
> Never heard that said about enrosques; sacadas are a staple item in
> Buenos Aires. My teacher here in Buenos Aires is teaching me giros
> with sacadas and something so similar to the enrosque it might as well be
> an enrosque, and he's a milonguero.
>
> Big flashy boleos are flat out dangerous in close quarters, its not a
> habit
> you should acquire unless you like starting fights. Much better to make
> boleos a occasional thing.
>
> In general, things happening outside the circle of the embrace are
> unsuited for social dance. They should not be something you do by
> default.
>> It sounds to me, agreeing with Jake, like
>> a lame excuse for not making the effort to aquire the skills to be able
>> to
>> do them.
> We've had the all distances discussion. Now I guess we'll have
> the all steps discussion. Same bullshit, different people.
>
> Musical interpretation is more important than maximizing vocabulary
> any day of the week.
>> I agree with you and Tom that we all must use judgement to adjust to
>> circumstances and context, but that has absolutely nothing to do with
>> style.
>>
> On the surface no. But "Milonguero" is built around navigation in tight
> spots.
> Salon, Fantasia and Nuevo aren't. People teaching milonguero style in the
> (including myself) only teach beginners things that won't get them in
> trouble.
>> Horrendeous navigation come in all styles and is more a matter of
>> attitude
>> rather than skills or lack thereof.
>>
> People that can't do an instant 180 on a dime can't navigate. That is a
> necessary skill. So is closely regulating how fast you move forward.
> So are a few other things. Ocho cortado, knowing what distance to
> keep from the guy in front, even musicality is important. Navigation
> has a huge skill set.
>
> Christopher
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
>> To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:37 PM
>> Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
>>
>>
>>
>>> In Buenos Aires porten~os don't have difficulty separating stage tango
>>> and social tango. This is the culture that created tango, so perhaps
>>> we should listen.
>>>
>>> In the early 20th century, Europeans and North Americans had their
>>> first exposure to tango. It was as shocking as it was popular, often
>>> considered too provocative for euro-norteamericano tastes. So it was
>>> sanitized and standardized to fit the cultural norms of the recipient
>>> cultures. Thus, today ballroom dance studios teach an American tango
>>> where partners at times separate part of the embrace or the
>>> International tango with bizarre head-flicking, both danced in a march
>>> like fashion to marching music with a strong drum line. This dance is
>>> an evolutionary derivative of the tango from Argentina, perhaps much
>>> accurately described as a fusion of a foreign form with an indigenous
>>> (ballroom) form and it is still called 'tango'.
>>>
>>> In the 1980s and 90s Tango Argentino and other stage shows introduced
>>> Europeans and North Americans to another version of tango - tango
>>> fantasia, as it is sometimes called. This type of tango is not
>>> normally danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, exposure to
>>> the shows created a demand from viewers to learn this type of tango
>>> and they did and danced it socially. This learning and further demand
>>> was reinforced by continued travel of tango stage performers to the US
>>> and Europe to teach. Thus, a modified tango fantasia became the norm
>>> at US & European milongas.
>>>
>>> There are probably several reasons why modified tango fantasia became
>>> the standard social form in the US. Part of it is due to a 'founder
>>> effect', i.e., it was the part of the Argentine tango culture that was
>>> brought to the US. However, tango fantasia also met with acceptance in
>>> the US because it blended well within a recipient culture that places
>>> a value on exhibition - whether it is dance or sports or motion
>>> pictures. We are a culture that enjoys and reinforces visual display.
>>>
>>> Social (milonguero and other) styles of tango have had a more
>>> difficult route of cultural diffusion in the US. As an instructor of
>>> the milonguero style in the Midwest US, I have repeatedly encountered
>>> resistence against the idea of dancing with maintained chest-to-chest
>>> contact. North Americans are uncomfortable with close physical
>>> contact. Dancing at a distance and making large conspicuous movements
>>> is less personal, less threatening, more comfortable, more consistent
>>> with our culture.
>>>
>>> This is not to say that tango fantasia is bad or somehow inherently
>>> evil. When done well on the stage, it is an art form to be admired. It
>>> requires great skill. It is great entertainment. However, on the
>>> social dance floor, it can be dangerous. Stop talking about all the
>>> fantasia dancers who respect the line of dance. They are few and far
>>> between. More likely to be encountered are dancers with limited skills
>>> who cannot navigate well and are a collision danger to other dancers.
>>> I've had to learn defensive navigation on the dance floor because of
>>> them.
>>>
>>> Fantasia is adapted to the stage. Social tango is adapted to the
>>> social dance floor.
>>>
>>> Despite exposure to the social style of tango in the US, there is
>>> limited acceptance. I believe one important thing North Americans fail
>>> to understand is that one of the unique features of social tango that
>>> makes it such a powerful experience that we become addicted to it is
>>> that there is connection primarily through the tactile and auditory
>>> sensory modalities, not the visual. Tactile connection with partner,
>>> auditory with music, with the visual sensory modality used primarily
>>> by leaders to navigate so as to not collide with other people on the
>>> floor. In what other dance can we maintain an intimate embrace with a
>>> partner for 10-15 minutes, synchonizing our brething and heartbeats,
>>> bathing in each other's sweat, flowing to passionate music? The
>>> porten~os understand this. North Americans have difficulty letting
>>> down their defenses enough to experience this.
>>>
>>> This concept is very foreign to a culture that glorifies exhibition
>>> and finds interpersonal contact threatening.
>>>
>>> So perhaps a modified tango fantasia or the similar 'nuevo' tango will
>>> define tango social dancing in the US for a long time to come, much as
>>> American Tango and International Tango did previously. But remember,
>>> this is not the tango that is danced socially in Buenos Aires. That
>>> may or may not mean anything to most US dancers, which is not a
>>> surprising revelation, since North Americans are known worldwide for
>>> interpreting any cultural product in their own terms. Our inability to
>>> understand other cultures is one of the reasons we are considered
>>> arrogant and have so much conflict with other cultures all around the
>>> world.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 15:56:13 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: Ron Weigel <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Ron Weigel wrote:
> Stop talking about all the
> fantasia dancers who respect the line of dance.
> They are few and far between.
It depends on how you define "fantasia". First you're
lumping *everyone* not using a chest-to-chest, common axis
embrace in the "fantasia" category. In doing so, that category of
"fantasia" becomes as broad as to make that second statement
demonstrably false.
And what about couples who modify the embrace while they dance?
Are they unclassifiable heretics, to be stoned at True Milongas
of the Close Embrace? What about people who dance an open embrace
(with both partners on heir own axis) but are close to each
other and take small steps?
I suppose people using a close embrace but Daring to Step Backwards
(Even After Having Turned to Adjust That Step to the Line of Dance)
are next in line for stoning.
> More likely to be encountered are dancers with limited skills
> who cannot navigate well and are a collision danger to other dancers.
No argument from me. But blame their teachers, not their embrace or
dancing style.
> I believe one important thing North Americans fail
> to understand is that one of the unique features of social tango that
> makes it such a powerful experience that we become addicted to it is
> that there is connection primarily through the tactile and auditory
> sensory modalities, not the visual.
What *you* fail to understand is that Your True Way is not the only
True Way, and that people dancing differently from you aren't
necessarily unconnected. Nor are they necessarily dangerous
(nay, Evil) flailers of members and navigational hazards.
I've had my dose of binary (black-and-white) thinking for the day,
thank you very much.
> Our inability to understand other cultures is one of the reasons
> we are considered arrogant and have so much conflict with other
> cultures all around the world.
I don't share your culture, but I shall still suggest you to replace
"our"/"we" with "my"/"I", and "culture" with "dancing style", and to
reread what you just wrote. *Even* though you quite evidently meant
"we" to exclude yourself.
If you want conflict, one fire sure way of getting that is to describe
people who've made different choices from those you've made as people
who have "failed to understand". It comes over as incredibly arrogant,
and if you want to "encounter resistance to your ideas", you're
well on your way to instant success.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:07:01 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
Cc: tango-L@mit.edu
Tom Stermitz wrote:
> It may be that Susana Miller coined the term Milonguero Style, but it
> is quite widespread these days. For example, see the teaching
> advertisements in all the Buenos Aires tango magazines. Whether you
> like it or not, Milonguero Style is one of the more common names given.
Yes. And to imply that anyone not dancing that style is not a
milonguero (no capital letter) is an application of the principles
of Newspeak. After all, Gabriel was describing what the word
"milonguero" meant, not a certain style.
Are we now to brandish our pots of Tipp-ex(TM) to erase from history
all mention of e.g. Pepito as a milonguero, just because
nowadays, Milonguero Style describes something rather narrow?
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:12:30 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
Michael wrote:
> Tom wrote:
> At some races they may even offer a bottle of champagne at
>> the end of the race for the jockey who crosses the
>> finish line first.
> Tom:
> It's ironic that you would write about a horse race because
> there's a tango that reminds me of the running of the
> Kentucky Derby.
Tita Merello's fiendish rendition of "Se Dice de Mi"? Not a tango,
but definitely fits the bill...
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:21:02 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>, Tango-L
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>
> It is not my intention to defend close embrace roadblocks.
> Rather, I contend that they are [1] less likely to injure
> another dancer (if you can avoid splitting your knuckles
> against his skull) and [2] easier to get around than open
> embrace roadblocks.
>
For the open embrace obstacles, somehow, "roadblock" does not
do justice to them (except perhaps the "let's do a sandwich right
*here*, orthogonal to the line of dance, and let's adorn it
endlessly and pause emphatically throughout the routine, staring
into each other's eyes").
May I suggest "bomb carpet", "minefield", "rotating saw blade
death trap" or "bumper car track" instead?
Which fantasia figures are a match for which term is left as an
exercise to the reader.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:31:45 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: El Mundo del Tango <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Cc: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>, Tango-L
<tango-l@mit.edu>
El Mundo del Tango wrote:
> As did Pepito. Salon close, not "milonguero"
I have a wife that can vouch for the fact that Pepito danced
entirely on his own axis (and left the followers on hers),
although he did dance as close to his partners as his belly
allowed him to do ;).
He was also extraordinarily musical and inventive, even on
crowded floors, and much more so than some insipid dancers
that think of themselves as Keepers of the True Way.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:33:46 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Jul 14, 2006, at 8:07 AM, Alexis Cousein wrote:
> Tom Stermitz wrote:
>> It may be that Susana Miller coined the term Milonguero Style, but it
>> is quite widespread these days. For example, see the teaching
>> advertisements in all the Buenos Aires tango magazines. Whether you
>> like it or not, Milonguero Style is one of the more common names
>> given.
>
> Yes. And to imply that anyone not dancing that style is not a
> milonguero (no capital letter) is an application of the principles
> of Newspeak. After all, Gabriel was describing what the word
> "milonguero" meant, not a certain style.
>
> Are we now to brandish our pots of Tipp-ex(TM) to erase from history
> all mention of e.g. Pepito as a milonguero, just because
> nowadays, Milonguero Style describes something rather narrow?
Not what I said. Not what came close to saying.
There are many styles of tango. There is no "True Style". Nobody says
there is. Nobody says one style is good the others are bad. Nobody
says one style is authentic, the others aren't.
Anyone can say, "I like this style, because...".
Is there an actual threat from the milonguero style. I mean, not just
a semantic threat. It really seems to bother some people.
Milonguero has multiple meanings. The problem has been that, a few
people want to deny certain usages of the word, or claim it doesn't
mean X, despite ample evidence that many people actually use it to
mean X.
I claim that you commonly hear the word milonguero used several
different ways:
Milonguero is someone who goes to dance tango a lot.
Milonguero is also someone well-known as making tango their lifestyle.
Milonguero historically was a bit pejorative.
Milonguero Style is the style done close and rhythmic in the crowded
milongas, using a lot of ocho cortados and tight circles, to
distinguish it from Salon Style, slightly more open with more
circular ochos
You could also say, "you dance like a milonguero" or you dance "bien
milonguero", or "this teacher is a specialist in the milonguero style".
That is how the word is used. I have commonly heard all these
versions. Chatting with people in the milongas of Buenos Aires or a
quick reading of the tango magazines in Buenos Aires shows these
usages to be common.
Maybe 10 years ago you could claim "milonguero style" was just an
individual distinction or marketing term when one ore two people used
it, but that horse left the barn a long time ago.
If you don't like milonguero style, don't do it; it is a free world.
If you don't like people talking about it, or teaching it, or
noticing that it is common in Buenos Aires, ummm. it is a free world.
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:48:35 -0700
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "Tom Stermitz" <stermitz@tango.org>, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
> There are many styles of tango. There is no "True Style". Nobody says
> there is. Nobody says one style is good the others are bad. Nobody
> says one style is authentic, the others aren't.>>
Tom....Calling what you teach and dance "Milonguero style" IS SAYING that
your style is the "authentic" and the other guy's is not.
That is the reason such label began being used in the first place, as its
promoters had no other need for it.
They could have called it "del centro", "apilado", etc.
and we would not be having this discussion.
Gabriel
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:21:35 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Jul 14, 2006, at 8:48 PM, El Mundo del Tango wrote:
>> There are many styles of tango. There is no "True Style". Nobody says
>> there is. Nobody says one style is good the others are bad. Nobody
>> says one style is authentic, the others aren't.>>
>
> Tom....Calling what you teach and dance "Milonguero style" IS
> SAYING that
> your style is the "authentic" and the other guy's is not.
> That is the reason such label began being used in the first place,
> as its
> promoters had no other need for it.
> They could have called it "del centro", "apilado", etc.
> and we would not be having this discussion.
>
> Gabriel
Nonsense. I'm saying no such thing.
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:48:33 -0700
From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Tom
You are wading in the sophoristic milieu - that has no single mean.
vete
>On Jul 14, 2006, at 8:48 PM, El Mundo del Tango wrote:
>
>>> There are many styles of tango. There is no "True Style". Nobody says
>>> there is. Nobody says one style is good the others are bad. Nobody
>>> says one style is authentic, the others aren't.>>
>>
>> Tom....Calling what you teach and dance "Milonguero style" IS
>> SAYING that
>> your style is the "authentic" and the other guy's is not.
>> That is the reason such label began being used in the first place,
>> as its
>> promoters had no other need for it.
>> They could have called it "del centro", "apilado", etc.
>> and we would not be having this discussion.
>>
>> Gabriel
>
>Nonsense. I'm saying no such thing.
>
--
Costa rica
?2004, por Duende de Tango, viviendo en el para?so,
todos de los derechos reservados del mundo
Rich coast,
of flowers and dreams,
dancing nights,
and candle lights.
as the mist passes
into the night ...
I miss her breath
of life and ...
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 10:48:50 -0700
From: "Jonathan Thornton" <obscurebardo@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<f9247e8a0607151048i2dae4bcy97b1e3e768008435@mail.gmail.com>
I was for other reasons doing some research on the Lone Ranger and came
across this. If I understand Duende's terse comment, the point is that human
memory is variable. Below is an example of two differing accounts by the
individuals involved in creating the radio show of the Lone Ranger. I think
everyone on this list can find an example of some event in their family that
is remembered differently by family members. I know I've learned to keep my
peace when I hear one story recounted as I don't remember it happening that
way at all.
Most of tango history is from human memory. And most of the arguments on
this list are about who is right and wrong. The great Borges could do this
justice. I can't but does it seem to me to be something that is embraced by
the spirit of tango that there are multiple versions that reflect our
individualities. Perhaps this is the only indisputable truth we have access
to. How I would love to hear what Borges with his penetrating insight would
say about this.
Jonathan Thornton,
what follows is a non tango illustration of the problem:
*There are two versions of the story.
Fran Striker told the Saturday Evening Post that he invented Tonto's name
and that it was picked by merely alterring the consanants in the name Bobo.
(This was a caveman character Striker had created in another radio program.)
Jim Jewell says that Striker was remembering wrong. Tonto, he said, is
another Potowatomie word.
There were a few Indians who would come to the camp to tell stories to the
children.
One of the Indians apparently had a penchant for drinking after the children
had gone to sleep. Sometimes he would get rowdy and the other Indians would
call him "tonto." This meant "wild one."
Jewell remembered the word, liked it, and gave the name to the Lone Ranger's
Indian companion.*
https://www.endeavorcomics.com/largent/ranger/faq.html
On 7/14/06, Duende de Tango <duendedetango@mac.com> wrote:
>
> Tom
>
> You are wading in the sophoristic milieu - that has no single mean.
>
> vete
>
>
>
> >On Jul 14, 2006, at 8:48 PM, El Mundo del Tango wrote:
> >
> >>> There are many styles of tango. There is no "True Style". Nobody says
> >>> there is. Nobody says one style is good the others are bad. Nobody
> >>> says one style is authentic, the others aren't.>>
> >>
> >> Tom....Calling what you teach and dance "Milonguero style" IS
> >> SAYING that
> >> your style is the "authentic" and the other guy's is not.
> >> That is the reason such label began being used in the first place,
> >> as its
> >> promoters had no other need for it.
> >> They could have called it "del centro", "apilado", etc.
> >> and we would not be having this discussion.
> >>
> >> Gabriel
> >
> >Nonsense. I'm saying no such thing.
> >
>
>
> --
> Costa rica
>
> (c)2004, por Duende de Tango, viviendo en el para?so,
> todos de los derechos reservados del mundo
>
> Rich coast,
> of flowers and dreams,
> dancing nights,
> and candle lights.
> as the mist passes
> into the night ...
>
> I miss her breath
> of life and ...
>
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 15:17:31 -0600
From: "Bruno Romero" <romerob@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Jonathan Thornton wrote:
>Most of tango history is from human memory. And most of the arguments on
this list are about who is right and wrong. The great Borges could do this
justice. I can't but does it seem to me to be something that is embraced by
the spirit of tango that there are multiple versions that reflect our
individualities.<
My 2 cents:
While Borges lived during the time of compadritos and the formation of
Tango, his insight comes from the comfort zone of his home, which as I read,
was fenced and protected from the outside world of malevos and compadritos.
He did not venture outside his home. His accounts appear to be second hand,
mostly from relatives, musicians, and friends.
He cites tango places where tango competitions among compadritos, from both
sides of the river, took place i.e., the dance academy San Felipe a.k.a. "La
Academia" in Montevideo, Uruguay. His description is mostly disenchantment
with the place when he realizes it is a humble place.
Bruno
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 16:26:02 -0700
From: "Jonathan Thornton" <obscurebardo@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango: A Cultural Perspective
To: "Bruno Romero" <romerob@telusplanet.net>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<f9247e8a0607151626g38abbdby2fd427373aaa469c@mail.gmail.com>
Bruno,
I wasn't being clear with my reference. I actually hadn't even considered
Borges in the sense of reporting on tango dancing. What I was thinking about
was the way Borges would treat multiple versions of reality and find a
deeper metaphysics underlying that and that I suspect for him he could find
a way to use tango dancers in a way to make a story illustrative of these
deeper aspects of psychic reality.
Hopefully what I've written here is clearer.
Jonathan Thornton
On 7/15/06, Bruno Romero <romerob@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
> Jonathan Thornton wrote:
>
> >Most of tango history is from human memory. And most of the arguments on
> this list are about who is right and wrong. The great Borges could do this
> justice. I can't but does it seem to me to be something that is embraced
> by
> the spirit of tango that there are multiple versions that reflect our
> individualities.<
>
> My 2 cents:
>
> While Borges lived during the time of compadritos and the formation of
> Tango, his insight comes from the comfort zone of his home, which as I
> read,
> was fenced and protected from the outside world of malevos and
> compadritos.
> He did not venture outside his home. His accounts appear to be second
> hand,
> mostly from relatives, musicians, and friends.
>
> He cites tango places where tango competitions among compadritos, from
> both
> sides of the river, took place i.e., the dance academy San Felipe a.k.a.
> "La
> Academia" in Montevideo, Uruguay. His description is mostly disenchantment
> with the place when he realizes it is a humble place.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
