4932 Tango is not a pose
Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 19:40:10 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: tango-l@mit.edu
There are actually pauses in the music in case you might not have
noticed. There actually places in the music where one is supposed to
pause and dance in place. Tango is not an Olympic marathon where you
try to do as many steps as possible.
The best milongueros will tell you that in the set of 4 you should only
be able to go around the floor once. If the man can meet the woman and
say good bye to her in the same place, it is considered a compliment.
Once a student of mine told another student that she did not like the
classes with my former partner because he always stops when he dances
with her. The other student told her that was because the music was
pausing and so was he. Her answer "I don't want to stop. I want to
keep dancing."
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Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 08:57:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: tango-l@mit.edu
> There are actually pauses in the music in case you
> might not have noticed. There actually places in
> the music where one is supposed to pause and dance
> in place.
There are also types of music which are marked by
rhythms, tempos, and melody lines that suggest
movement through space during much of the song. These
types of music include almost all valses and many
tangos.
> The best milongueros will tell you that in the set
> of 4 you should only be able to go around the floor
> once. If the man can meet the woman and say good
> bye to her in the same place, it is considered a
> compliment.
It seems to me to be rather sort of a stunt which
privileges calculation, elitism, and a vaguely
antisocial desire to control others' expression over
response to the music, the space, and the partner.
Only someone monomaniacally determined to dance
"correctly" will find that they take the same length
steps and move at the same speed when the room is
large and uncrowded and when it is small and full of
other couples. And only someone whose appreciation of
music is entirely overcome by a frenzied need to be
more-authentic-than-thou will dance the same way to
vals, milonga, tango, d'Arienzo, de Angelis, Troilo,
you name it.
Marisa
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 11:18:27 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: "Marisa Holmes" <mariholmes@yahoo.com>, dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340705090918m35fd5f30rf61eaeeb7320397a@mail.gmail.com>
Deby's point is right on the mark. Not that one is required to dance
once around the floor in a tanda. That's just a nice consequence of
taking your time with the music.
One of the greatest deficiencies in tango dancing I see in the US is
that most dancers are always in a hurry. They are either ahead of the
music (if they are even paying attention to the music at all) or their
steps are too long so they don't have time to collect their balance
and they are falling over their feet. A lot of this is the consequence
of thinking of tango as a sequence of steps rather than as a
connection to partner and music.
Enjoy the music. Take your time. Several very good tango instructors
I've experienced have emphasized that one should be 'almost a little
bit late' in keeping with the rhythm. Also, enjoy the pauses. Tango is
not a race.
Ron
On 5/9/07, Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > There are actually pauses in the music in case you
> > might not have noticed. There actually places in
> > the music where one is supposed to pause and dance
> > in place.
>
> There are also types of music which are marked by
> rhythms, tempos, and melody lines that suggest
> movement through space during much of the song. These
> types of music include almost all valses and many
> tangos.
>
> > The best milongueros will tell you that in the set
> > of 4 you should only be able to go around the floor
>
> > once. If the man can meet the woman and say good
> > bye to her in the same place, it is considered a
> > compliment.
>
> It seems to me to be rather sort of a stunt which
> privileges calculation, elitism, and a vaguely
> antisocial desire to control others' expression over
> response to the music, the space, and the partner.
> Only someone monomaniacally determined to dance
> "correctly" will find that they take the same length
> steps and move at the same speed when the room is
> large and uncrowded and when it is small and full of
> other couples. And only someone whose appreciation of
> music is entirely overcome by a frenzied need to be
> more-authentic-than-thou will dance the same way to
> vals, milonga, tango, d'Arienzo, de Angelis, Troilo,
> you name it.
>
> Marisa
>
>
>
> Bored stiff? Loosen up...
> Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 12:42:36 -0400
From: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>, tango-l@mit.edu,
dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com
<183484970705090942v13fac13am871940544d315864@mail.gmail.com>
Two expressions I personally like are:
1) "You can dance tango too fast, but you can never dance it too slow"
2) "Never chase the music, let the music chase you"
Tango is a 'happening' where you, your partner, the music, the other
dancers, come together for a brief moment in time and space. It will never
ever be exactly the same again. It is not a race, a contest, or a show.
Make the most of each tango instance.
Ed
On 5/9/07, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Deby's point is right on the mark. Not that one is required to dance
> once around the floor in a tanda. That's just a nice consequence of
> taking your time with the music.
>
> One of the greatest deficiencies in tango dancing I see in the US is
> that most dancers are always in a hurry. They are either ahead of the
> music (if they are even paying attention to the music at all) or their
> steps are too long so they don't have time to collect their balance
> and they are falling over their feet. A lot of this is the consequence
> of thinking of tango as a sequence of steps rather than as a
> connection to partner and music.
>
> Enjoy the music. Take your time. Several very good tango instructors
> I've experienced have emphasized that one should be 'almost a little
> bit late' in keeping with the rhythm. Also, enjoy the pauses. Tango is
> not a race.
>
> Ron
>
>
> On 5/9/07, Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > There are actually pauses in the music in case you
> > > might not have noticed. There actually places in
> > > the music where one is supposed to pause and dance
> > > in place.
> >
> > There are also types of music which are marked by
> > rhythms, tempos, and melody lines that suggest
> > movement through space during much of the song. These
> > types of music include almost all valses and many
> > tangos.
> >
> > > The best milongueros will tell you that in the set
> > > of 4 you should only be able to go around the floor
> >
> > > once. If the man can meet the woman and say good
> > > bye to her in the same place, it is considered a
> > > compliment.
> >
> > It seems to me to be rather sort of a stunt which
> > privileges calculation, elitism, and a vaguely
> > antisocial desire to control others' expression over
> > response to the music, the space, and the partner.
> > Only someone monomaniacally determined to dance
> > "correctly" will find that they take the same length
> > steps and move at the same speed when the room is
> > large and uncrowded and when it is small and full of
> > other couples. And only someone whose appreciation of
> > music is entirely overcome by a frenzied need to be
> > more-authentic-than-thou will dance the same way to
> > vals, milonga, tango, d'Arienzo, de Angelis, Troilo,
> > you name it.
> >
> > Marisa
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
> > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
> >
>
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:17:04 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Amen to Marisa.
But let me add that the matter Igor began this thread with is quite
different from pausing With the music, or likewise people treating the
ronda as a racetrack. He was talking about dancers who plain obstruct
the line of dance (probably because they aren't aware of what's going on
behind them, or don't give a damn). One does see this aspect of _bad_
floorcraft creating a cascading problem from time to time.
If leaders are going to work together in the ronda, sometimes it means
sacrificing one's own preferences or style or personality (etc). I
believe Igor was venting at the distribution of this sacrifice falling
more on some leaders (himself, etc.) than on others (the telephone poles
and the whirligigs).
That you cannot dance too slow is a hogwash statement. Some need to hear
it, yes: but that doesn't mean that others don't need to hear the
opposite, especially when their sluggard pace is nice for their own
embrace and horrendous for everyone else's. That belongs, if at all, on
the inside lanes for a reason. But offenders will do it in the "fast
lane," asking for collisions & pooping on the party, and it's that kind
of selfishness & obliviousness that really has no excuse. If floor
conditions make it possible to make a creative decision of that nature,
it should be made where it won't impose the same decision on others.
The music has _harmonies_ too.
Spatz
DC
Ed Doyle wrote:
> Two expressions I personally like are:
>
> 1) "You can dance tango too fast, but you can never dance it too slow"
>
> 2) "Never chase the music, let the music chase you"
>
> Tango is a 'happening' where you, your partner, the music, the other
> dancers, come together for a brief moment in time and space. It will never
> ever be exactly the same again. It is not a race, a contest, or a show.
> Make the most of each tango instance.
>
> Ed
>
> On 5/9/07, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Deby's point is right on the mark. Not that one is required to dance
>> once around the floor in a tanda. That's just a nice consequence of
>> taking your time with the music.
>>
>> One of the greatest deficiencies in tango dancing I see in the US is
>> that most dancers are always in a hurry. They are either ahead of the
>> music (if they are even paying attention to the music at all) or their
>> steps are too long so they don't have time to collect their balance
>> and they are falling over their feet. A lot of this is the consequence
>> of thinking of tango as a sequence of steps rather than as a
>> connection to partner and music.
>>
>> Enjoy the music. Take your time. Several very good tango instructors
>> I've experienced have emphasized that one should be 'almost a little
>> bit late' in keeping with the rhythm. Also, enjoy the pauses. Tango is
>> not a race.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> On 5/9/07, Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> There are actually pauses in the music in case you
>>>> might not have noticed. There actually places in
>>>> the music where one is supposed to pause and dance
>>>> in place.
>>>>
>>> There are also types of music which are marked by
>>> rhythms, tempos, and melody lines that suggest
>>> movement through space during much of the song. These
>>> types of music include almost all valses and many
>>> tangos.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The best milongueros will tell you that in the set
>>>> of 4 you should only be able to go around the floor
>>>>
>>>> once. If the man can meet the woman and say good
>>>> bye to her in the same place, it is considered a
>>>> compliment.
>>>>
>>> It seems to me to be rather sort of a stunt which
>>> privileges calculation, elitism, and a vaguely
>>> antisocial desire to control others' expression over
>>> response to the music, the space, and the partner.
>>> Only someone monomaniacally determined to dance
>>> "correctly" will find that they take the same length
>>> steps and move at the same speed when the room is
>>> large and uncrowded and when it is small and full of
>>> other couples. And only someone whose appreciation of
>>> music is entirely overcome by a frenzied need to be
>>> more-authentic-than-thou will dance the same way to
>>> vals, milonga, tango, d'Arienzo, de Angelis, Troilo,
>>> you name it.
>>>
>>> Marisa
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>> Bored stiff? Loosen up...
>>> Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:43:06 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: mariholmes@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Marisa,
Your post is quite good and accurate. I got a chuckle out of your
description of the monomaniac tango dancer ;-). Personally I find the tango
posers to be just as annoying or even more so that the "exited atomic
particle" type of dancer who darts about the floor. At least the later will
not obstruct the LOD continuously as the "immovable object" posers. IMHO
anyone who cannot move along the LOD, especially while dancing valses and
milongas is just blowing smoke about all the "pauses in the music". They
just have not learned to dance very well yet. Don't believe all the BS you
read or hear from other plodders. The tango has a LOD for a reason. The
dance "progresses" along the line of dance. It's not a stationary period of
heavy breathing....
Also, the idea that somehow completing a "lap" around the dance floor in
each song is an index of good dancing is total crap. How can such a
pointless feat be accomplished with all the variables involved? The length
of the song, the number of posers, the length of the perimeter of the dance
floor, and other factors will affect how far one can travel along the LOD.
There seems to be a number of people who think that the majority of tango
dancers dance too fast.... Funny, perhaps the issue is with the minority who
progresses too slowly? There is a big difference in dancing to the music and
with the music or dancing off the beat and with disregard for the music. The
tango is mostly very rhythmic. The milonga and vals are even more compelling
to move. With few exceptions such as Pugliese or Piazzolla and other
orchestras that play in that style, the tango music moves right along in the
4x4 or 2x4 rhythm. Sure, one can pause a beat or 2, but I don't think that
stationary posing while Darienzo or Rodriguez (and most other orchestras)
are playing is not "dancing to the music" and definitely not good tango
dancing.
Cheers
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>
>It seems to me to be rather sort of a stunt which
>privileges calculation, elitism, and a vaguely
>antisocial desire to control others' expression over
>response to the music, the space, and the partner.
>Only someone monomaniacally determined to dance
>"correctly" will find that they take the same length
>steps and move at the same speed when the room is
>large and uncrowded and when it is small and full of
>other couples. And only someone whose appreciation of
>music is entirely overcome by a frenzied need to be
>more-authentic-than-thou will dance the same way to
>vals, milonga, tango, d'Arienzo, de Angelis, Troilo,
>you name it.
>
>Marisa
>
>
>
>Bored stiff? Loosen up...
>Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
See what youre getting intobefore you go there
https://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:05:43 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Cc: mariholmes@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu
WHITE 95 R wrote:
> With few exceptions such as
> Pugliese or Piazzolla and other orchestras that play in that style, the
> tango music moves right along in the 4x4 or 2x4 rhythm.
There are such things as a melody, dancing to the cues of melodic
lines of singers or instruments and very clear long phrases in
the music - we're dancing to tango music, not to the tune of a
fat Nubian slave drumming the 2x4 or 4x4 beat on a Roman galley,
you know. And while the beat goes on, the music not always
moves on...not all music compels to move. Indeed, most music
compels the dance to "breathe", with slowdowns, accelerations
and pauses at just the right moments (at least if you're open
to it -- not if you've freshly had some concrete poured into
the ears so that you can safely ignore what the music is trying
to tell you).
The rhythm of the steps you take also has less to do with progress
along the line of dance than you'd think, because the length of
your steps (and their direction) is something you control -
or rather, negotiate with your surroundings, unless you're obtuse.
Mind you, standing still does rob you of that freedom - if you
do take a step you can stay on your spot or cover ground, but
it's hard to cover ground without taking a step (somehow,
not many people have mastered the art of tango levitation).
Which means that if you do stand still, you should either
not do it for long (where "long" depends on who's behind
you and how far they are) or plan accordingly - dance floor
corners and inside lanes offer a graceful way out of the
conundrum if you do like to show off your emphatic pauses.
But pauses are effects, and as such, more is less - it's often
more beautiful to see someone pause for a fleeting instant and
then move on (leaving you wondering exactly what has happened)
than to see a couples who'll stand like a statue just to be sure
the entire universe has had a chance to admire them in
their stunning pause (nay, pose).
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 21:52 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Ron wrote:
> One of the greatest deficiencies in tango dancing I see in the US is
> that most dancers are always in a hurry.
Same in the UK, though much less so in continental Europe.
> A lot of this is the consequence of thinking of tango as a sequence of
> steps rather than as a connection to partner and music.
A lot of it is the consequence of having been taught to execute sequences
in lock-step with the beat i.e. one beat == one step.
This is what happens in almost all the beginners' group lessons I see
hereabouts. One of the instructors told me she considered it an essential
'framework' for the sequence, and she had to tell them to step on every
beat otherwise "they wouldn't know when to step at all".
Urk. By starting off assuming people can't dance to the music, this soon
/ensures/ they can't dance to the music. Iatrogenic or what???
I saw Gavito give a lesson to a group of averagely handicapped class
victims and a few of their teachers, as follows. He asked everyone to
dance an 8-beat sequence (starting any time you like) comprising:
Step, pause, pause, Step, pause, pause, pause, pause
Then he asked for
Step, pause, pause, pause, pause, Step, pause, pause
A very clever remedy! ;)
Chris
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 14:36:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> writes:
> We're dancing to tango music, not to the tune of a fat
> Nubian slave drumming the 2x4 or 4x4 beat on a Roman galley.
Dang that's good. Sheer poetry!
"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> writes:
> I saw Gavito give a lesson to a group of averagely
> handicapped class victims and a few of their teachers,
> as follows. He asked everyone to dance an 8-beat
> sequence (starting any time you like) comprising:
And as if that weren't enough of a treat, now I'm
presented with someone who actually knows how to use
the verb "comprise" correctly (a rarity, alas, on this
side of the pond).
What a banner day! :)
Huck
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:06:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Ed Doyle <doyleed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tango is a 'happening' where you, your partner, the
> music, the other dancers, come together for a brief
> moment in time and space. It will never ever be
> exactly the same again. It is not a race, a
contest,
> or a show. Make the most of each tango instance.
My point exactly: the moment is not the same as any
other moment, nor will it ever occur again. So why on
earth would I try to homogenize my experience by
dancing as slowly as I can to every type of music, in
every ronda, while trying to figure out how to creep
only once around the floor - once a song or once a
tanda, depending on who is reciting the Great
Mythology - with my partner?
If the moment is unique, shouldn't I want to respond
to it in a unique way? If the floor is packed and
there is a tanda of peppy milongas, shouldn't I try to
dance tiny quick steps that do not impinge on my
neighbors as we all progress slowly around the ronda?
And if there is a giant floor with eight couples and a
glorious lush vals of de Angelis is playing shouldn't
I try to dance in a way that lets my partner swoop and
soar, pausing half in the air, waiting for the
exquisite moment when the lead resolves into the next
step?
There is a difference between dancing quickly and
rushing. There is a difference between sweeping along
through an available space because the music calls for
movement and "failing to savor the moment". If you
can't figure out what those differences are, you
better start by trying to free yourself from the idea
that there is only one right way to dance. There are
lots of ways to dance tango, and the best ways take
into account the music, the partner, the space, the
ronda, your current psychological state, who knows
what. If you take all those into account and always
come to the same conclusion, there is something wrong.
There is music that calls for slow enjoyment of every
nuance and quiver and there is music that calls for
glorious abandon and movement. I want to dance both
kinds - and a lot of kinds in between. What about
you?
Marisa
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:37:26 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: tango-l@mit.edu
A-a-a-men.
Jake Spatz
DC
Marisa Holmes wrote:
> My point exactly: the moment is not the same as any
> other moment, nor will it ever occur again. So why on
> earth would I try to homogenize my experience by
> dancing as slowly as I can to every type of music, in
> every ronda, while trying to figure out how to creep
> only once around the floor - once a song or once a
> tanda, depending on who is reciting the Great
> Mythology - with my partner?
>
> If the moment is unique, shouldn't I want to respond
> to it in a unique way? If the floor is packed and
> there is a tanda of peppy milongas, shouldn't I try to
> dance tiny quick steps that do not impinge on my
> neighbors as we all progress slowly around the ronda?
> And if there is a giant floor with eight couples and a
> glorious lush vals of de Angelis is playing shouldn't
> I try to dance in a way that lets my partner swoop and
> soar, pausing half in the air, waiting for the
> exquisite moment when the lead resolves into the next
> step?
>
> There is a difference between dancing quickly and
> rushing. There is a difference between sweeping along
> through an available space because the music calls for
> movement and "failing to savor the moment". If you
> can't figure out what those differences are, you
> better start by trying to free yourself from the idea
> that there is only one right way to dance. There are
> lots of ways to dance tango, and the best ways take
> into account the music, the partner, the space, the
> ronda, your current psychological state, who knows
> what. If you take all those into account and always
> come to the same conclusion, there is something wrong.
>
> There is music that calls for slow enjoyment of every
> nuance and quiver and there is music that calls for
> glorious abandon and movement. I want to dance both
> kinds - and a lot of kinds in between. What about
> you?
>
> Marisa
>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 22:21:52 -0400
From: "David Koucky" <davidkoucky@msn.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose, is it?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
{11} The Nature of Usefulness ...
Thirty spokes will converge
In the hub of a wheel;
But the use of the cart
Will depend on the part
Of the hub that is void.
With a wall all around
A clay bowl is molded;
But the use of the bowl
Will depend on the part
Of the bowl that is void.
Cut out windows and doors
In the house as you build;
But the use of the house
Will depend on the space
In the walls that is void.
So advantage is had
>>From whatever is there;
But usefulness rises
>>From whatever is not.
The Tao Te Ching is a rather old instruction on the way of things. It does remind us of the manner in which we observe our universe.
While visiting Bariloche a few years ago I met a fine dancer from Rosario. He advised me that one should search for the calm in the Tango. I had to confess that my looking had not caught up with my finding. Tango will often fill me with the music. I will literally percolate with the power of the music. The circular movements that Trini and Sean have been kind enough to mention begin. I soon feel as if we are tornados wrapping around and around. Her tornado (ventarron) spins around mine. But it is the calm that counts. One day I may find it.
Tomas Howlin once told me about the ronda. He was explaining that the old clubs could have a sense of everyone dancing with everyone else. The codigos are a way of reaching an agreement with all the dancers in the room. It may not work as well as we like, but the codigos can help everyone to dance together at the same time. Thank you to our Buenos Aires correspondents who are trying to tell us something important.
Over the past few years I have put a lot of effort into learning to dance with my partner. I need to understand her and dance her kind of dance if this is going to work. Right now I am only dancing with myself. There seems to be a lot of this going around. If I am going to elevate to dancing with my partner and then to dancing with a floor full of others, I had better be ready to entertain a few opinions other than my own. Heaven knows there are plenty of opinions to go around. Most of the dancers have brilliant opinions and I can see why they are so hesitant to abandon them.
Well with all this in mind I have to admit that I have never been able to convince the parties in front of me to advance more rapidly. The couple behind me has little patience with my artistic needs, or my brilliant insights into the 4 of 5 figures I have learned to imitate. I have yet to get the floor at a weekend milonga to do as I tell them. In fact they seem ever ready to offer me the famous Tango-L Courtesy.
I wish you well. Dance as you please, when you please. Call it what ever you want. In the end, you get back a reflection of what you put in. Enjoy it.
Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:32:30 +0100 (BST)
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is not a pose
To: tango-l@mit.edu
It is comments like those which are the very reason men love women.
'Mash
