2  Tango Music, etc...

ARTICLE INDEX


From: bugsbunny1959 [bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM]
Sent: Freitag, 9. Februar 2001 20:29
To: TANGO-L
Cc: bugsbunny1959
Subject: Tango Music, etc...

Well if anyone wants lessons in how not to go about something, perhaps I
should provide lessons, yikes. I have to remember that my tastes in music
are not always others & v/v. I know there are people who feel similar to me
regarding the music they love to dance to, but they certainly don't need my
voice right this second. Sorry to anyone I offended by posting inflammatory
rhetoric. I think it came from frustration I've experienced going to dances
where set after set of music that I don't connect with has been played. I'm
left wondering why a certain style of music is so well-represented when so
much beautiful, instrumental (& some vocal) Tango music is out there. It
would be very enlightening if everyone to switch roles, dancers --> DJs &
vice/versa. All need each other for dances, unless some form of electronic
DJ is created that beams individually selected music to various pair of
dance partners. That would be interesting. Hmmmm.... I guess anytime a large
part of someone's experience is in the hands of someone else (esp. w/
something as religious as tango!), some controversy is bound to arise.

I do think every city or dance should develop its own selections of music
based on the desires of the people dancing there. Tango sometimes has
problems with pretentiousness, narcissism & some folks taking it &
themselves way too seriously. Some newcomers are really put off by a certain
scene sometimes. I've encountered some resistance when I try to talk dance
friends (from other styles of dance) to come learn Tango (or they try it
once & bail for good, turned off by people, music or who knows what). There
are also some really good things as well. Portland has really blossomed with
lots of cool, interesting & fun people, dancing in beautiful venues.

For me, I just don't connect with more minimalist music. I've talked to
dancers about this & they've suggested Color Tango, Forever Tango,
DeAngelis, Troilo, DiSarli, Fresedo, Florindo Sassone. I'm just hoping that
there is enough room for lots of music & that all people involved with a
dance can occasionally check in with everyone there, perhaps esp. with folks
they don't normally visit with.

So, often questions are often more important than answers. Who knows...
Well, enough rambling & time to chill on this subject for a while...

Rick Anderson
Portland, OR



From: Stephen.P.Brown [Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG]
Sent: Freitag, 9. Februar 2001 22:51
To: TANGO-L
Cc: Stephen.P.Brown
Subject: Re: Tango Music, etc...

Rick Anderson wrote:

>I'm left wondering why a certain style of music is so
>well-represented when so much beautiful, instrumental (& some vocal)
>Tango music is out there.

In my opinion the DJ should play tangos in a variety of rhythmic and
orchestration styles. Even the classics can end up sounding
monotonous if the DJ does not provide enough variety.

>For me, I just don't connect with more minimalist music. I've talked
>to dancers about this & they've suggested Color Tango, Forever Tango,
>DeAngelis, Troilo, DiSarli, Fresedo, Florindo Sassone.

A conflict can arise over the music when some people prefer the more
dramatic and smoother music with fuller orchestration, and others
prefer the more rhythmic styles of music. Both are great, but they
provide different dance experiences.

The sound quality of tango recordings is also an issue that is not
frequently discussed. The quality of recording has increased
tremendously since the golden age of tango. The concert music that
prevailed from the mid 1950s-onward is simply recorded with a much
cleaner sound than the dance music of the late 1930s through the early
1950s.

Improvements in recording techniques supported the development of a
recorded concert sound with more full orchestration. That
orchestration would not have sounded like much when recorded in the
late 1930s and early 1940s when more rhythmic playing dominated
recordings.

The recordings made in the 1990s and 2000s are of substantially higher
quality. On the right stereo, the bandoneon on the Daniel Barenboim
CD, Tangos Among Friends sounds very close to real. Unfortunately,
the same cannot be said of Troilo's early rhythmic recordings.

Trying to use concert music for dancing is not very a satisifying
experience for many dancers. Modern recordings with dance rhythms are
perhaps a way to bridge the gap. Fortunately a few exist. Perhaps
more will be made.

With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)


Tango Argentino de Tejas
http://www.tejastango.com/

a noncommercial online resource
for the tango community



From: frankw [frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU]
Sent: Samstag, 10. Februar 2001 00:19
To: TANGO-L
Cc: frankw
Subject: Re: Tango Music, etc...

Friends,

Stephen Brown wrote:

>
> The sound quality of tango recordings is also an issue that is not
> frequently discussed. The quality of recording has increased
> tremendously since the golden age of tango. The concert music that
> prevailed from the mid 1950s-onward is simply recorded with a much
> cleaner sound than the dance music of the late 1930s through the
> early 1950s.

Steve makes an excellent point. Beginners sometimes tell me that the
golden age tangos all sound alike (!), which I take to mean they are
reacting to the conspicuous lack of fidelity in the recordings. I have
had some success restoring 'tolerability' to a few older recordings
using digital filtering methods. The "zippier" sound quality definitely
incites more energy from the dancers! I'm interested whether other DJ's
have undertaken any similar sound restoration projects. If so, what
were your experiences? Comments? Ideas? Suggestions?

Frank - Mpls.

Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)



From: white95r [white95r@HOTMAIL.COM]
Sent: Freitag, 9. Februar 2001 23:55
To: TANGO-L
Cc: white95r
Subject: Re: Tango Music, etc...

----- Original Message -----



From: "Bugs Bunny" <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Music, etc...

snip


> Sorry to anyone I offended by posting inflammatory
> rhetoric. I think it came from frustration I've experienced going to

dances

> where set after set of music that I don't connect with has been played.

I'm

> left wondering why a certain style of music is so well-represented when so
> much beautiful, instrumental (& some vocal) Tango music is out there.

Don't feel alone, I've been to plenty of milonags where the music was pretty
abominable. It seems that many folks who choose and play for milongas have
no idea of what makes good dance music. Some just play whatever they find
and buy without any regard for the actual content of the CD's


> It would be very enlightening if everyone to switch roles, dancers --> DJs

&

> vice/versa. All need each other for dances,

Snip

This sounds reasonable but it is not. The majority of dancers do not
necessarily know or own the music to play at a milonga. They might have a
few CD's and some favorite songs but they can not play music for a milonga
successfully. Also, what makes you think that DJ's do not dance as well? A
good DJ must be a good dancer, otherwise how would he or she know what to
play?


> I do think every city or dance should develop its own selections of music
> based on the desires of the people dancing there. Tango sometimes has
> problems with pretentiousness, narcissism & some folks taking it &
> themselves way too seriously. Some newcomers are really put off by a

certain

> scene sometimes. I've encountered some resistance when I try to talk dance
> friends (from other styles of dance) to come learn Tango (or they try it
> once & bail for good, turned off by people, music or who knows what).

This is what invariably happens anyway. The problem is that locales that do
not have a good foundation of tango dance and musical knowledge will
generally end up with some bizarre and inadequate repertories of tango
music. Unfortunately, "pretentiousness, narcissism & some folks taking it &
themselves way too seriously" is altogether too common. I guess it just goes
with the territory. Tango does tend to attract people who mistake the
Porteqo culture and the tango with a model to emulate for the display
self-righteousness, indignation and elitist, arrogant attitudes.

> For me, I just don't connect with more minimalist music. I've talked to
> dancers about this & they've suggested Color Tango, Forever Tango,
> DeAngelis, Troilo, DiSarli, Fresedo, Florindo Sassone. I'm just hoping

that

> there is enough room for lots of music & that all people involved with a
> dance can occasionally check in with everyone there, perhaps esp. with

folks

> they don't normally visit with.

I don't know what "minimalist music" means in this context. I agree with
Steve Brown that some recordings are very poor. Also, some obscure, arcane
old tangos are not really that good for either dancing or listening. Too bad
some folks think that just because recordings are old, scratchy and weak,
they are somehow more "genuine" and superior to more popular, eminently
danceable, recordings. The ones mentioned above are quite good if chosen
from the "right" period of time (Color Tango, Forever Tango excepted, they
are too new and quite good).

Good music to all,

Manuel



Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 03:03:54 -0700
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Music

So we had this beautiful live orchestra playing here tonight, I finally
figured out why dancing to so much of the golden era of Tango music is so
unfulfilling. The recordings that I hear, & I believe are played elsewheres,
have fairly poor acoustically quality of the original music. I wonder if
there is anyone on this list that was around to hear in the 40s or whenever
this stuff came from & could compare/constrast the copies from the original.
Does anyone know anything about sound? Can anything be done to improve the
fidelity of what we have? I've seen people turn up the volume pretty loud w/
mixed results...

Rick Anderson
Portland, OR





Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:09:36 -0800
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Tango Music

A QUESTION from Rick Anderson.

>"I'm curious, if the dance styles in Argentina are varied, can the same be

said for the dance music?"<

I will try to answer knowing that many dancers may have different opinions
which I respect as every one dances His/Her tango the same way as they live
their lives.
My impression is that,

Tango music in Argentina is varied from several points of view.
One initial basic difference is
1 - The music called "Tipica" which is intended for dancing.
It has a fairly steady beat that makes the music ideal for dancing. It is
beautiful but clear and not very complex.
Examples are Carlos Di Sarli and Juan D'Arienzo.

2 - The Musical orchestrations that are intended for listening. Here the
beat has drastic changes which makes this type of music very difficult to
dance to. The musicians write these melodies for love to the music, it is
more complex and has a rich expressive spectrum, *it is not intended for
social dancing, .
Examples are Mariano Mores, Anibal Troilo?, Horacio Salgan, Astor Piazzola,
Raul Garello, Jose Colangelo, Carlos Gardel.
Carlos Gardel is intended to listen for the beauty of the melody but for the
lyrics as well.

*Music selection is essential when it comes to dance style and choreographic
interpretation.

Another basic difference is the "personality" of the orchestra. Each one has
a distinct character and therefore the interpreter adjusts to it when
dancing. This is to say that a good tango dancer dances differently to each
orchestra.

Juan D'arienzo has a very rhythmic music. He is called "El rey del compas"
(King of the beat). His orchestra has always been very popular. The dancer
should adjust his expression to the fast beat of the music with syncopations
when needed.
His music is good for Milonguero Style but one can also dance Salon to it.

Carlos Di Sarli has a calm, balsamic, contemplative music. His orchestra
plays with a constant rhythm, beautifully monotonous. This makes his music
easy to dance to, a good orchestra for beginners. A predictable, slower
music that is also ideal for dancing with long steps, ideal for exhibitions
as it allows plenty of time for rich expression of both dancers. This music
can rarely induce "a magic experience".

Osvaldo Pugliese is also slow but it has areas of great tension, it has an
exuberant rhythm, with great push, a great musical impulse expressed in the
conversation of the different instruments and also along the different
musical segments. The music flows freely at times, while the melody takes
over in moments of solitude. An ideal music for exhibition and also for
dancing Salon with great expression or Milonguero.

Anibal Troilo one of the most famous bandoneon players gives to his music
beauty, harmony and equilibrium. It is somewhat faster it requires
interpretative practice in order to feel comfortable.

Miguel Calo has also a fairly steady rhythm that makes his music ideal for
Salon Style.

Osvaldo Fresedo has a very melodic music, sometimes with strong jazz
influence ideal for milonguero and salon styles.

*In summary a first distinction must be done between music that was written
for dancing and the one that was specifically written for listening.

Be aware that professional dancers use difficult dramatic music for their
exhibitions to which they choreograph in advance.
This music that seems to be so attractive frequently is not intended for
social dancing.

*The second distinction is the "Personality" of a particular orchestra. The
dancer should adjust his interpretation to each one of them.

The beginner dancer and the foreigner is frequently unable to distinguish
these differences causing them to try to dance to "un-danceable music" as
they do not understand tango musicality, at times reaching the point
where they prefer to dance using tango choreography to non-tango music that
is more familiar to them. Here the loss of character, personality, feeling
and interpretation could be so enormous to the point that the dancer gives
the impression that rather than dancing to a particular music he is moving
totally alienated from it, like moving with a background music.This is
...*normal when faced with a dance and a music of such complexity as
Argentine Tango. There is no need to worry too much as these problems
correct themselves with time, practice and perseverance.
The most important educative tool is listening regularly to tango music,
preferable to Di Sarli, Pugliese, D'Arienzo, Calo, Fresedo and demand that
the instructor teaches musicality and how to dance to the different
orchestras.

I commented one day to an old milonguero that I greatly respected that "I
did not feel certain orchestras" that " found them difficult to dance to".
He asked - "for how long have you been dancing"- I said for about four
years - then he said - "Of course, that is natural - the right feeling for
each orchestra comes after the seventh year-" I thought he was kidding me
...but I know now that he was not.




Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:09:37 -0800
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Tango Music

Marie-Therese from our tango group sent the following note:

If One wants to learn about the soul of the Other, then Argentine Tango is
the perfect introduction to the process... The music is the Territory and
the
floor it's boundary. Just as a Maestro leads his orchestra to feel the soul
of the melody from a square foot perimeter, so do the Tangueros who venture
into the dance expression to experience an even greater interpretation of
its
power and "raison- d'etre" Not a word needs to be spoken. Within seconds
they
will know if the chance encounter is sublimely important or if the
connection is a dud!. Even a beginner will recognize it and for that reason
endure the process which is often an exercise in humiliation.
I have seen "long term couples", "short time ones" and "this tanda only"
pair,
dance with such SPONTANEOUS harmony that I felt I was beholding WORLD PEACE!
It is the Surprise which makes the package worth opening. As you wrote,
unpredictable ...ONLY ARGENTINE TANGO is consistently a discovery of The
Other!




Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:10:46 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Tango Music

Sergio wrote:
"So the trip to the store and a question about Argentine Tango music is most
likely going to yield music that is not danceable. The beginner ignorant of
this fact will try to dance to it with great disappointment leading him to
believe that it is better to dance to non-tango music."

A tango friend from the US makes an annual visit to BsAs. He is responsible
for providing the music at several tango dances, so he shops for compact
discs to add to his already vast collection. One night, my partner and I
met him for dinner and a chat. I asked my partner to review the CDs that
my friend had recently purchased. After looking over a large stack of tango
CDs, my partner found no more than three which contained suitable music for
dancing. The majority of the music was for listening. My friend told me he
had spent $500 on CDs. Even those he bought from a local DJ were unsuitable
for dancing. My partner has been dancing in the milongas for many years and
knows what music is appropriate for dancing. It's unfortunate that he
didn't go CD shopping with my friend. Well, he helped the economy here.

Pichi de Buenos Aires




Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:22:39 -0500
From: DANCE MORE TANGO TEES 'N THINGS <24tango@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: TANGO MUSIC

It is unfortunate that the gentleman in this post spent so much effort and money
on cds only suitable for listening. Personally, I will only deal with Oscar Himschoot
of Club De Tango when I want to purchase music in BA. His office near Congreso is wall
to wall music, lyrics, books, posters and all things tango. He knows his music
by heart and if you tell him what style and mood you are looking for he will pull
something out for you and let you listen to it. A fabulous place to spend a couple
of hours. IHNFI.

Parana 123-5 piso # 114, 4372-7251. He also has a website from which you can order
but I do not have that info handy.

regards to the list,
norma greco
www.dancemoretango.com



A tango friend from the US makes an annual visit to BsAs. He is responsible
for providing the music at several tango dances, so he shops for compact
discs to add to his already vast collection. One night, my partner and I
met him for dinner and a chat. I asked my partner to review the CDs that
my friend had recently purchased. After looking over a large stack of tango
CDs, my partner found no more than three which contained suitable music for
dancing. The majority of the music was for listening. My friend told me he
had spent $500 on CDs. Even those he bought from a local DJ were unsuitable
for dancing. My partner has been dancing in the milongas for many years and
knows what music is appropriate for dancing. It's unfortunate that he
didn't go CD shopping with my friend. Well, he helped the economy here.

Pichi de Buenos Aires




Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:30:15 -0500
From: Keith Elshaw <keith@TOTANGO.NET>
Subject: Tango Music

Thank goodness for those who say only traditional tango music and only
follow the rules. Too many people want to have fun and be creative. This is
a shame. Obviously, the ancient tango traditions must be upheld. It was
invented pure and must never change. No tango music written after 1926
should ever be played, or tango itself will be corrupted and die. It is our
duty to pontificate and be narrow-minded.

It is also disgusting to see figure skaters use tango music in competitions
like the Olympics. How dare they?

Tango is a Serious business. Let us all renew our dedication to the one true
Tango way.

Who was it who said, "Those who write the most about tango on Tango-L are
usually the worst dancers!" Surely, a jest!

What is the world coming to?




Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:38:48 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: tango music

---- Original Message -----



Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:27:47 +0200
From: Hannes Rieger <hrieger@GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: Music

Manuel Patino wrote:

> I agree with this too. the absolutely worst milongas I've been to
> consisted of a a couple of cassette tapes with a bunch of disjointed
> prerecorded tango and non-tango music.

That's too much generalized! I know at least one milonga lasting from
dusk till dawn with music from prerecorded mini disks and it works
extremely well! Very good mood the whole night, dance flor always filled.
I have to say, however, that they play with very, very few exceptions
only classical tangos. As DJ it's sometimes frustrating to see that
this kind of work also make a success. :-(

> The next worst milongas were
> those with the laptop/mp3 player set up where the DJ just set up
> a program and went to dance!

Stephen Brown wrote:

> DJs can approach an evening with one of several strategies. With their
> knowledge of a large number of CDs, they can compose each tanda and
> program it into the evening's music on the fly. They can prerecord the
> entire evening's program in advance, or they can use prerecorded tandas
> as the building blocks for mixing the evening's music.

After serveral years of DJing I finally use a laptop, IMHO the best way.
With the experience from former times I grouped many songs to tandas
which quickly can be added to the playlist. If I later realize that
some tandas aren't optimal, I can easily change them, which isn't possible
with prerecorded tanda CDs, something I used some time too.

Sometimes before a milonga I build a rough playlist. During the milonga
it's easy to insert, exchange or shorten some tandas, depending on the
mood of the crowd. Nevertheless I have some time to dance.

Hannes
--
www.tango-landsberg.de




Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:59:16 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Tango

Guy Williams says:

"Surely this is a matter of personal taste? There is some tango music which
I find dreary, some which I find inspiring and some that grows on me with
time. But once in a while I like to Tango to Tom Waits or Eva Cassidy or
Paul Tingen or Led Zeppelin or Frank Zappa or Saint Colombe or Stravinsky or
someone I never heard of.
Variety is the spice of life as they say.

(yes people do think I have bizarre taste in music)".

I am sure that most people have no problem with that, actually you can dance
'tarantella' to tango or samba to tarantella for what we care.
Most of us do not care about your musical taste either, that is a personal
matter as you point.

There is only one little aspect that could irritate some of us : when you
say " But once in a while I like to Tango to Tom Waits or Eva Cassidy or
Paul Tingen or Led Zeppelin or Frank Zappa or Saint Colombe or Stravinsky or
someone I never heard of."

It is that 'I like to tango' that seems absurd! You are not tangoing, you
are doing your own 'thing', for lack of a better word.

So remember you can like the music that you wish, you can dance the way you
wish to the music that you wish but ...awake! you are not dancing Argentine
Tango, you are dancing 'that something' whatever that is. It can be anything
, I assure you, but Tango. So do not go around saying that you dance
Argentine Tango either, it is bad for the Tango reputation.

As the tango music that grows on you with time... I think (the way you are
going), that is going to take a very long time to grow.

Tango has its character, its music , its choreography and it is danced in a
certain way with a lot of respect and feeling.

What you do is your own invention. Let's look for a name...may I suggest
Fox-trot-trot? :))




Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:22:50 +0000
From: ahshol Kahn <kahn44@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango

" But once in a while I like to Tango to Tom Waits or Eva Cassidy or
Paul Tingen or Led Zeppelin or Frank Zappa or Saint Colombe or Stravinsky or
someone I never heard of."

Please dance as you wish but do not go around saying that you dance Tango.
It is not fair to tango and it is not fair to you either, since you do not
know what tango is yet.

You can be more exact if you say, I like to do tango steps to any kind of
music as an exercise or a dance of my own invention.

If I am long, somewhat curved, came from Brazil, have a yellow skin with
black spots, taste sweet and my name is Chiquita.
I cannot say that I am an apple, I have to say I am a banana.

Some people that have never seen either of the two, may believe that an
apple is long and yellow.

Please do all of us a great favor: stop saying that you dance tango.





Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:54:27 +0100
From: Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango

Sergio commented

So remember you can like the music that you wish, you can dance the way you

> wish to the music that you wish but ...awake! you are not dancing

Argentine

> Tango, you are dancing 'that something' whatever that is. It can be

anything

> , I assure you, but Tango. So do not go around saying that you dance
> Argentine Tango either, it is bad for the Tango reputation.

<As the tango music that grows on you with time... I think (the way you are

> going), that is going to take a very long time to grow.>

It is that 'I like to tango' that seems absurd! You are not tangoing, you

> are doing your own 'thing', for lack of a better word.

What you do is your own invention. Let's look for a name...may I suggest

> Fox-trot-trot? :))

Dear Sergio

While you are entitled to your opinion you are making judgements about what
my dance is without any real evidence to substantiate it. That makes it
personal and I believe contrary to the rules of Tango-L. I would prefer it
if you stick to what you feel and what you know. You may be irritated that I
dance Tango steps to avante garde music but I am not the only one who does
this at Milongas.

Tango has its character, its music , its choreography and it is danced in a
certain way with a lot of respect and feeling>

I agree with this but surely dancing 'a certain way' does not preclude
invention, interpretation, creativity?

Is tango not a dance of improvisation? The 4/4 beat is not exclusive to
Tango. Do you think the music of Gotan is also a threat to Argentine Tango?


No doubt you have strong feelings about what Tango is or is not. But can
one dance to all of Piazzollas music? He was always pushing the boundaries
of what tango music is. Tango is also a musical form that has evolved and
has been played and interpreted and adapted by different compsoers and
different cultures.

What about the music in Carlos Sauras Film? One of the choreographed pieces
was danced to purely drums. Does this also fall outside what you regard as
Argentine Tango?

I'm sure the reputation of Argentine Tango will not be damaged by anything
I say or do.

> Guy

Ps Igor Stravinsky has writtten a perfectly good Tango compostion that is on
Tango Siempre's CD Nocturno

> >




Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:16:29 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tango

Guy and friends,

You are quite correct that we will never settle the question of "What IS and
IS NOT tango" in this forum. However, we can all agree that there is music
and dance that obviously belongs in one category or the other. The issue
will never go away because, ultimately, we each define for ourselves that
which is and that which isn't appropriate based on our experience. An
analogy about experience got too long so I appended it below. [;-)> ...but
it concludes: the more experience you have, the more differences you
appreciate.

So, I have met Argentines who would have enjoyed THEIR dance among us in No.
Am. but viewed the milongas and thought, "No." That which was 'the same' to
us was totally foreign to them (no ref. to Mpls., BTW). They observed the
scene and it soured what inspiration was in the music. They have described
(and I am beginning to understand) that there is a feedback between the
movement and the music that intensifies the sensation of (nothing less than)
beholding one's personal emotional identity. In this case, it is for them
to feel Argentine - clearly and deeply - and move to that feeling. ... a
powerful feeling of 'home', or the longing for it, mixed with pride and
sadness. THAT is different. THAT is an experience. I may never be able to
feel exactly 'Argentine', but I think I know emotional identity when it's
staring me in the face. (BTW, thanks Leopoldo, for your encouragement to
the list on such matters.) Of course, we could INTENTIONALLY take the above
referenced 'Argentine' out of the tango we dance (if it was ever there to
begin with) and also enjoy ourselves. But isn't that where we're coming
from rather than where we're trying to go? People who have danced really a
lot clearly respect certain traditional forms. Why? My opinion: When one
DOES realize the FORCE that is within 'Argentine' tango, one thinks twice
about ignoring or changing it!

It is wonderful that young people in BA are returning to the milongas and it
is quite appropriate that they, too, define for themselves what is and is
not tango. I expect, as they live their lives and over the years learn who
they are, that the essence of their tango will become THE SAME as the
essential tango felt by the milongueros of the past. Really, how could it
not? Meanwhile, we're all learning. Sometimes we must memorize the answers
before we can understand the question. And the bottom line is that most of
us, like the young dancers of BA, have a long and interesting journey of
tango discovery ahead of us.

Un abrazo tanguero, and checking out for a while as I prepare to head down
to BA and points south...

Frank - Mpls.


That analogy about the analyst's perspective: Think of water. Pure water
is all the same, right? There are seas of water, and all seas behave like
water. This sea, that sea - Mediterranean, Baltic, Aral - they behave the
same. Minor detail: natural water is impure. It's all influenced by it's
surroundings, just like people. Among areas within and among the various
seas there are many differences in the water. If you compare everything
from the size of the tides and shape of the waves down to the analytical
peaks that result when you submit only 500 molecules of that sea to mass
spectrographic analysis... you will have to conclude that this sea and that
sea are not at all the same. Not by a mile, not by a molecule. The true
natures of both water and tango are products of their environments. And the
more you analyze it, or the more experience you have with it, the more
differences you appreciate.




Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 02:54:54 -0300
From: la guacha <lamasguacha@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango music

"There is only one little aspect that could irritate some of us : when you
say ' But once in a while I like to Tango to Tom Waits or Eva Cassidy or
Paul Tingen or Led Zeppelin or Frank Zappa or Saint Colombe or Stravinsky or
someone I never heard of.'
It is that 'I like to tango' that seems absurd! You are not tangoing, you
are doing your own 'thing', for lack of a better word."

Bravo to Cachafaz!!

What is incredible to me is how the old milongueros have been listening to
the same tangos for over 50 years and still they do not tire of them.
I have only been dancing seven years and yet, I still discover something
new each time I hear my favorite golden age tangos. And I know there is much
more to discover. ..

Those who tire of the music after so few years of listening, must not
really have an ear for it.
I suggest they band together and start their own milonga and call it
'something else' , 'my own thing' or even 'alternative tango style'.

I personally enjoy the little salsa breaks we have here in NYC. I refer to
them as my 'salsa cigarette breaks'.
Since the smoking bans in NYC, one must go outside to have a smoke. But now
with all the 'alternative tango music' - I am smoking way too much!! It's
not healthy for me to hear anything but golden age danceable tango music in
the milongas.
thanks
la guacha





Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 03:01:57 -0300
From: la guacha <lamasguacha@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango

"What about the music in Carlos Sauras Film? One of the choreographed pieces
was danced to purely drums. Does this also fall outside what you regard as
Argentine Tango?"

I think the key word here is CHOREOGRAPHED!! It is easy to dance to
Piazzolla as well when you work with choreography. This is different than
the social dance of the milonga.

la gaucha





Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:58:00 -0700
From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango music

--- la guacha <lamasguacha@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Those who tire of the music after so few years of
> listening, must not
> really have an ear for it.
> I suggest they band together and start their own
> milonga and call it
> 'something else' , 'my own thing' or even
> 'alternative tango style'.
>

<and>

> I think the key word here is CHOREOGRAPHED!! It is
> easy to dance to
> Piazzolla as well when you work with choreography.
> This is different than
> the social dance of the milonga.

Hmmm... I think that the key concept you may be
missing is to keep an open mind. I agree that most
people may not really be dancing to the music when
they dance to "non-tango" music. But then again, these
people probably are not dancing to the music when they
dance to "classic tango" music. Who knows. But if the
music moves them (in regards to whatever genre of
music), who are we to judge. The important thing is
that the music has to move you.

But there are some poeple who understand & hear the
music at a different level (these are people usually
with musical background). If you couple this with the
understanding and awareness that tango requires, then
it's fun to watch these people and fun to dance to
different music. The simple fact is that it requires
more musical knowledge to dance to late Piazzolla
music. Some pieces he uses five beats per measure. He
has a much richer overlay between rhythms, melody, and
harmony than most traditional tango. His 3-3-2 rhythm
is not prevelant in most classic tango, although it's
prevalent in other genre of music. Some phrases
requires you to be able to keep time as if you're
playing an instrument because there aren't any set
simple rhythm, just a flow in melody. If you you are
not aware of the musical complexity and intricacies,
then it will be very difficult to dance to. But if you
are, it can be FUN especially if you're dancing with a
partner who is also musically aware.

My point is that just because you do not agree with
what you currently see when people dance to
challenging music, know that there may be other people
who can tune and connect to the same music - but you
just haven't seen them yet. Or to play devil's
advocate: even if no one does it currently, it does
not mean it's impossible.

On a side note: People dance tango for many many
various reasons. I think that some younger people may
do it as a way of exercise. Why not take up other
sports? Don't know. But who are we to say what the
correct reason should be. So if these people are doing
their athletic things, and happening to be doing their
thing with funky music in the background. So what?
Just as long as they are considerate (to the people
around them) and are not hurting anyone. Hopefully
eventually everyone will dig deeper (with time) into
tango and find the "thing" that draws and connect so
many people together.


=====
Leopoldo Betrico
Buenos Aires





Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 13:13:12 -0300
From: la guacha <lamasguacha@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango music

>Hmmm... I think that the key concept you may be
>missing is to keep an open mind.

Actually, I have a very open mind and believe and encourage people to do
whatever they feel creatively. Perhaps just somewhere else and not around
me. My arguement comes out of a very selfish place. I enjoy traditional
tango music. It pleases my ear. Most of the alternative stuff gives me a
headache. I go to the milonga expecting to hear it. In the same way, I would
not want to hear Led Zepplin at the Met. If I want LZ, I'll go to a rock
concert
la guacha






Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:20:36 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Hello everyone,

PATRICK CROTTY wrote:

> <schnip> Composers and musicians make music. Social partnered dancers _pick and choose_ some musical genre to dance. The dancers _then_ create a dance genre they think and feel reflects and is in harmony with the music. <schnap> [emphasis mine]

I more or less agree with the Later thrust of this post, but This Part
Here is quite a mis-statement of actual history, and music/dance
creation. You think Any music, or any art (for that matter), has ever
been made in a market-proof vacuum? You think these things are isolated
in history or in place? You think music creators are one camp, dancers
another, and the populace a third?

There's always an interplay between extant traditions, past traditions,
and innovations; and all that is usually directed by popular demand
(dance halls and producers, not to mention radio stations). You've got
it rather backward. Nowadays, for instance, people look at the music of
John Cage as some kind of ivory-tower thing, created ex nihilo; and yet
his prepared-piano pieces were commissioned For A Dance Troupe, and one
with a paying audience.

Actual tango history:

early 1930s-- The tango had moved into 4/4, was for crooners, and the
dance floors were filled with chairs. Things had gotten rather
bourgeois. The Decarian school was developing its innovations, many of
which fueled the developments in crooner tango and in concert tango. It
was lucrative for more than a few.

1937-- D'Arienzo reverts tangos to 2/4 (the old milonga tempo). The
people respond to his change, _unless they prompted it in the first
place_. Either way, the chairs leave. In consequence, he keeps it
coming. Workaday orchestras are forced to adapt if they want gigs,
because dancers want dance music. Some extreme tango snobs still despise
D'Arienzo for this, I've heard. (Some people never catch up, which
you're right about, Patrick.)

Both of these trajectories in tango history were important, and both
were equally fueled by (a) money and (b) popular demand. There's a whole
Other tradition of tango music for crooners out there, which is still
alive and loved. Dancers often ignore this rather huge current in the
river. It, however, seems to have fared much better than dance music did
in the wake of 60s rock.

But as far as I know, if we consider the dark prehistorical days of
tango-- the dance (not that we'd recognize it today) seems to have
preceded the music. At least, that's a minor part of the argument put
forward by R.F. Thompson...

Also, with regard to the recent sneers at, and support for, concert
tango music: That's another current as well, which is part of tango
culture as a whole. I personally blow my nose on much (not all) of it
_qua music_, because I think it sucks. I find excessive violin vibrato
(the norm these days among soloists) intolerable. But if people want to
dance to it, what do I care? And if live bands, influenced by that
tradition, play at some milonga you attend, what do you care?

DJs playing stuff like that is, of course, an entirely different
matter... they ought to do what they're hired for, in my opinion.

In any case, dance music (and dancing) is only one part of the whole.
Gardel and El Arranque (just for example) are other parts. I mean, just
because people don't usually dance to Miles Davis and Sinatra (or maybe
they do, I don't know) doesn't mean that their work isn't a vital part
of jazz.

Jake Spatz
DC







Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:47:03 +0100
From: Alberta <amgallin@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] tango music
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<659dd9dc0701292247t5a481205ged41325d9c687b02@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

I am looking for the scores of some Tango music (so far with no
success), could anyone suggest me where I can find/buy some of those?

Alguien le dice al Tango, music by Piazzolla, text by Borges
Recuerdo, Pugliese and Libertella
La Peregrinacion, A. Ramirez and Libertella
Verano Portegno, Piazzolla

I have been looking for them since a while now...
I'd really appreciate your help.

thanks a lot,
Alberta





Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:33:44 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>


> Meaning of life says (among other things): "i have been dancing tango about 5 years, 3 or 4 times a week, my wife is a dance instructor (not tango), so she has been dancing "forever". so, still figuring it out, but beyond beginners." Does not like classical tango music.

In my opinion you may have been "dancing tango" for about five years as you say, but it seems that you never understood tango music.

You may use the tango choreography to dance to any type of music but the feeling will be different.Unknown command -

Many people both in Argentina and abroad have experienced similar feelings with respect to tango music in general as you do.Unknown command -

What happens is that there are many tango orchestras, each one playing music with its own characteristics.

There are different historical periods which were accompanied by different types of tango music.Unknown command -

There is tango with strong beat and tango with very weak or event absent beat.

There are tangos for listening and tangos for dancing. There are Argentine Tangos and foreign tangos.

There are thousands of tangos that are not very good. There are a few hundred that are sublime.

Unless you spend time with somebody that knows the music and is able to teach you tango musicality it is obvious that you, by yourself will never discover the pleasure of listening and dancing to real tango music .

This discovery may take several years, but then the pleasure is in the journey; eventually you will be able to dance differently to every tango orchestra with great feeling, improvising and making a good artistic interpretation of the music.

When this happened to me I felt like I had been walking by a beautiful tree covered with flowers that I had never noticed before, yet it had been there all the time in all his complete magnificence.

With best regards, Sergio
Explore the seven wonders of the world





Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:44:24 -0700
From: meaning of life <kushi_bushi@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango list
<tango-l@mit.edu>


amazed, but not surprised.

first, i want to thank sergio for his dead on answer to my question (you, my new friend, must be a great teacher), and of course heather for her response, certainly your cat is welcome, EVERYONE IS WELCOME WHEN AND WHERE I DANCE.

the question did not in any way, say that i "hated" ALL tango music, or that i "hated any" tango music for that matter (my mother says i am not supposed to use that word, so i don't. i was asking if others found some of the music "whiney and uninspiring". obviously from the back channel answers, others have the same feelings. sergio so aptly points out that there are many kinds, reasons, styles, etc. of tango music, some which can be danced to, almost NEEDS to be danced to, and some that can't. he also makes a great point of the "journey" and one of the greatest metaphors EVER! "When this happened to me I felt like I had been walking by a beautiful tree covered with flowers that I had never noticed before, yet it had been there all the time in all his complete magnificence." (i'm gonna borrow that one, OK?). i suspect that my real problem is the local dj's not fully understanding the music, and playing the "wrong stuff".

i sure hope that those of you with the "judgmental answers" NEVER EVER TRY TO TEACH ANYTHING TO ANY ONE, i can almost assure that you will never succeed (refer to sergios response for a positive example). I have spent more than 30 years teaching another movement based and equally passionate endeavor; i have welcomed everyone from little girls to professional cage fighters. old people, young people, athletes and klutzes, even ballerinas. i have loved to watch each of them explore my "world" from their own perspective. i have treated every single one of them with the highest respect, and been excited about everything that they were excited about. i have bit my lip when they asked questions that made ME evaluate what i did and why i did it. i have nearly passed out when they "added" their stuff to my stuff. i have learned so much from them, and TRIED never to judge them for their questions, or their experimentation (not that they did not pi$$ me off sometimes). any of you judgm!
ental guys jewish? (got a jewish friend?) remember "the 4 types of children" from passover, reread that section of your favorite hagadah. my post was a question, not a condemnation, or ment to be disrespectful in anyway to the traditions, the past, the current or the future (there WILL be one you know?)

the tango is a beautiful dance, life and music style. do you really think that it should remain stagnant? OF COURSE we should respect the past dancers, music and lifestyle, and understand them in the fullest depths, but do we need to dwell in the past and not move forward? omg (i love that), is there no more than what currently is? flat earth and dinosaurs eating little guys with clubs? oh oh, things evolve. some people stand on the current state of things shoulders and REACH UP. and sometimes they fall, and then the special ones get up and reach again. and one day, one of them will touch the stars, and the next one will stand on his (or her) shoulders.

get over your bad selves and DANCE. who freaking cares what dance (or what you call it), if you love it, DANCE IT, TO WHATEVER MUSIC YOU WANT, whenever and wherever you want; i ripped off a mean solo in the tool section at home depot this morning looking at a new sander. and grumpy people, who are you to judge? when you see someone loving their dance, be happy for them, just as you would want them to be happy for you.

dance onthe tangnista
supported by PETA (People Expressing Tango Attitude) "no cats were injured in the making of our music"

> From: sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> To: tango-l@mit.edu> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:33:44 +0000> Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Music> > > > Meaning of life says (among other things): 'i have been dancing tango about 5 years, 3 or 4 times a week, my wife is a dance instructor (not tango), so she has been dancing 'forever'. so, still figuring it out, but beyond beginners.' Does not like classical tango music. > > In my opinion you may have been 'dancing tango' for about five years as you say, but it seems that you never understood tango music. > > You may use the tango choreography to dance to any type of music but the feeling will be different.Unknown command - > > Many people both in Argentina and abroad have experienced similar feelings with respect to tango music in general as you do.Unknown command - > > What happens is that there are many tango orchestras, each one playing music with its own characteristics. > > There are different historical periods which were accompanied!

by different types of tango music.Unknown command - > > There is tango with strong beat and tango with very weak or event absent beat. > > There are tangos for listening and tangos for dancing. There are Argentine Tangos and foreign tangos. > > There are thousands of tangos that are not very good. There are a few hundred that are sublime. > > Unless you spend time with somebody that knows the music and is able to teach you tango musicality it is obvious that you, by yourself will never discover the pleasure of listening and dancing to real tango music . > > This discovery may take several years, but then the pleasure is in the journey; eventually you will be able to dance differently to every tango orchestra with great feeling, improvising and making a good artistic interpretation of the music.> > When this happened to me I felt like I had been walking by a beautiful tree covered with flowers that I had never noticed before, yet it had been there all the time in all his co!
mplete magnificence.> > With best regards, Sergio> ___________________
Explore the seven wonders of the world




Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:25:39 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600709282325j1fa79116m8052ef0828f36727@mail.gmail.com>

I will respond to some claims you make that are at least relevant to
some semblance of a discussion on the purported topic.


>i was asking if others found some of the music "whiney and uninspiring".


Not true - you stated that you find "MUCH of the traditional tango
music, whiney and uninspiring." AND "personally, i find my self
spending most of my time looking for a beat and inspiration in what
usually sounds to me like a "bag of cats being mistreated"."

You are arguing from bad faith if, given what you really said, you
then turn around and complain that some folks interpreted your words
to mean that you hate classical tango music ("classical" here and in
what follows means tango music that is not identified by labels such
as fusion or non-tango or alternative or neo-tango). Moreover, you try
to twist what you said by claiming you said "some" when you said
"much" (this is significant in this context), and also by omitting
your more offensive statement (see above).


> the tango is a beautiful dance, life and music style. do you really think that it should
> remain stagnant? OF COURSE we should respect the past dancers, music and lifestyle,
> and understand them in the fullest depths, but do we need to dwell in the past and not
> move forward? omg (i love that), is there no more than what currently is? flat earth and
> dinosaurs eating little guys with clubs? oh oh, things evolve. some people stand on the
> current state of things shoulders and REACH UP.


It is a bit difficult to react comprehensively to the different facets
and levels of ignorance, arrogance and insults you display with
rant-like paragraphs like above. Let's see:

1. Classical tango music is not stagnant. Your basic premise is false.
In fact this is one of the most ridiculous assertions one can make,
given the reality. Not only has classical tango continually evolved up
to its dark period starting somewhere past the mid-1950s, but nowadays
there are many many orchestras - modern tango orchestras - that are
continuing in the classical tango music spirit and (1) saving from
extinction, preserving and recreating the most beloved classical tango
music styles and (2) continuing the evolution. There are also new
classical tangos being composed. There is an explosion of activity,
mostly centered in Buenos Aires and Argentina, and this newest wave
started almost ten years ago.

2. Novelty is not identical with progression or evolution or with
anything with an inherent higher value. Only a miniscule part of what
was novel once ended up being the latter. Historically all that is
considered to have been progress or part of evolution was once a
novelty, however THE OPPOSITE DOES NOT FOLLOW - it does not follow
that all novelty must be part of progress and evolution (which is the
premise you implicitly use) - in fact this is a common logical error
which is a combination of an inductive argument and inductive fallacy.

3. You are not inherently a better person for doing tango steps to
non-tango music. Instead let's call it a question of personal taste, a
value-neutral comparison. Your described preferences or practices in
the field of tango music and dancing are definitely not attached to an
intrinsically higher moral value, not even by association with all
these great artists and thinkers that did move humanity forward (see 1
and 2 above). You are not a better person, and you are not justified
in implicitly gloating or insinuating that you are, or, more
offensively, that people with other preferences are somehow inferior
or in possession of less moral value or judgement than you.

4. There is another more tangential, yet related, point: originality
PER SE (as an initial property of novelty) is not very valuable or
progressive. To say, do or create something that no one has ever said,
done or created before is one of the easiest things to accomplish.
(this could go more generally into a discussion about fashions in
(what is called) art, but I digress).


> get over your bad selves and DANCE. who freaking cares what dance (or what you call
> it), if you love it, DANCE IT, TO WHATEVER MUSIC YOU WANT, whenever and wherever
> you want;


You insult by insinuation - typically associative fallacies of
attaching bad qualities or views to your opponents (they "dwell in the
past", think there is nothing more than currently is, their stance is
analogous to "flat earth and dinosaurs eating little guys with clubs",
they do not think thing should evolve, they are not like these great
people that stand up and reach up, and, from your "PETA" signature,
that they lack attitude).

You also dial it up a notch and use direct and personal insults - "bad selves".


With best regards,

Konstantin
Victoria, Canada





Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:31:46 +0300
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>


----- Original Message -----



Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music


> music styles and (2) continuing the evolution. There are also new
> classical tangos being composed. There is an explosion of activity,
> mostly centered in Buenos Aires and Argentina, and this newest wave
> started almost ten years ago.

How many really good (danceable) tangos are composed these ten years?

I know one or two, and they are not so easy to dance to.

And I say it not because I hate classical tango music, but because I like
it - and I'd love to see new compositions are emerging.

I would be grateful if you provide information, or even samples of such
music. We, here in Sofia, know nothing about it. I regularly search YouTube
for tango related videos, and never saw a performance on (of) new tango
music.







Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:17:07 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

You can expect exactly as many new great tangos,

as many new Bachs, Mozarts, and Beethovens was born on Earth after them.

Igor Polk
PS
I am kidding.
I was amazed by the "Extasis" tango orchestra from Denver during the last
tango festival ( I am sure you did not looked at my webpage about it,
Krasimir, thanks for attention.. )

They are amazing musicians - for the first time I have heard such deep
professional performance in a really true classical tango style and dance to
it. And they played some new staff too !!!

Glover Gill is good. Talented. There are some other musicians on the right
way.

Just last Sunday I have heard Michael Thomas playing violin in a San
Francisco Tango club. Can you believe it? Real Canyengue ! What a pleasure
!!!!

Musical performace of "Forever Tango" is amazing. Great Tango ! And dancing
too.
Well, Piazzolla.. is still modern.

... For those who want to stand on the shoulders of Athlants, not ants.









Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:00:34 +0300
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Igor, I am talking solely of compositions - there are very fine new
orchestras today.

Even in Belgrade, see www.beltango.com

Let alone Fernandez Fiero . . .

Or Color Tango, or many others.

Yes, I like some of Gill's compositions.

Then, you can listen to this
http://www.sinrumbo-tango.com/media/mp3/CiudadAusente.mp3

Still, most of the new compositions are absolutely fine (and some are
masterpieces). BUT, for LISTENING. There is practically nothing that you can
dance to, with no preparation, in a milonga.

Because 1 or 2, or 10, or even 20 compositions (where are they?) for ten
years is practically nothing.

Today composers miss one important thing - that they must compose for the
dancers, not for listeners alone.


----- Original Message -----



Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music


> You can expect exactly as many new great tangos,
>
> as many new Bachs, Mozarts, and Beethovens was born on Earth after them.
>
> Igor Polk
> PS
> I am kidding.
> I was amazed by the "Extasis" tango orchestra from Denver during the last
> tango festival ( I am sure you did not looked at my webpage about it,
> Krasimir, thanks for attention.. )
>
> They are amazing musicians - for the first time I have heard such deep
> professional performance in a really true classical tango style and dance
> to
> it. And they played some new staff too !!!
>
> Glover Gill is good. Talented. There are some other musicians on the right
> way.
>
> Just last Sunday I have heard Michael Thomas playing violin in a San
> Francisco Tango club. Can you believe it? Real Canyengue ! What a pleasure
> !!!!
>
> Musical performace of "Forever Tango" is amazing. Great Tango ! And
> dancing
> too.
> Well, Piazzolla.. is still modern.
>
> ... For those who want to stand on the shoulders of Athlants, not ants.
>
>
>
>






Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:43:30 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Dear list,

While I generally agree with Sergio on this one, there's a particular
point I'd like to counter-- namely:

Sergio Vandekier wrote:

> Unless you spend time with somebody that knows the music and is able to teach you tango musicality it is obvious that you, by yourself will never discover the pleasure of listening and dancing to real tango music.

I agree that there IS a particular musicality and therefore movement for
tango, largely due to the nature of the music itself (its articulation
and its content), and secondarily due to the embrace. BUT I do not
believe this necessarily needs to be passed down like a family recipe.
Someone with a keen ear and an intuitive sense of movement-- and a sense
of poetry (for the Argentines are a _literate_ people)-- can figure it
out with some effort.

I state this solely on behalf of the exceptions to the general rule, who
are better off on their own than seeking counsel from dancers who reduce
all musicality to rhythm and (inevitably) to _counting_, which is the
least part of it.

On the other hand, as an additional support for Sergio's argument, I
might point out that (in my experience) those with a wealth of other
dance experience-- whether in jazz, salsa, ballet, hip-hop, or
whatever-- tend to have more trouble Getting It. They often want the
dance to be something it isn't, and because of that they can't see what
it is...

A clear and present example of this latter type might be Mr. "meaning of
life." A lot of "movement" experience, and a wife who teaches some other
dance, doesn't really mean shit when it comes to tango. You don't need
prior dance experience, and I often think it's better if you don't have
any. What you need is a body that can move, a true taste for the music,
and a mind that can comprehend that tango isn't "dance," but a
subculture-- the dance being only one facet of it.

Jake
DC
.





Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:31:13 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dance What You Love To Hear WAS Re: Tango Music
To: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

I really think all dance comes down to a deep pleasure from and affinity
for the 'indigenous' music.

I never liked ballet music. I love latin music, particularly afro-cuban
music. It makes me move. Same with blues and jazz. I am no big fan of
canned ballroom music, it's cheesy and over-dancey. It goes with the
big moves in international smooth styles. Ditto for newer versions of
tango recorded in the style 'american' tango, which, to my ears, are
military marches with smooth styling over the top. I also can't handle
reggae music or country music, to me it all sounds like the same song
and it's boring.

I love tango music, so I dance tango. I can't keep from moving to
afro-cuban music, so I dance salsa. I love jazz and blues, so I dance
lindy hop and swing and balboa and west coast and blues. I know the
other dances, but I only do them, if and when, for social politeness and
joining in. I dance what I feel about the music and in the music, in
me. It pleases me to do so within the dance forms that organically
evolved alongside the music. It also pleases me intellectually to
experiment with mixing up the dances and the music, but that's not as
authentic so it's an occasional thing.

I couldn't disagree more strongly with Jake, that one is better off
learning argentine tango without previous dance experience. Training in
coordinated rhythmic body movement and experience in creating a frame
and a connection with a partner, and in communicating lead and follow,
put a new tango dancer light years ahead of someone who is inexperienced
and has no comfort with coordinated body movement and/or social dancing.
It's true that dancers get ahead of themselves and perceive
similarities between dances that aren't there, and it can be hard to
undo ingrained habits. An excellent dance teacher should know enough
about the basic structure of all the popular social dances, to know
about the differentials in frame, posture, lead and follow, style, and
vocabulary of moves, and be able to help translate for these
'cross-dancers'.

I say, if you dislike most or all of a genre of social dance music,
listen to yourself! Don't do that social dance. While salsa is
probably easiest and most commercially available, I steer new leads away

>from it all the time, if they are not tapping their feet.

I see (and unfortunately dance with) leads in argentine all the time,
who obviously don't get or don't like the music. I wonder whether they
are spending their play time in the right place. Then again, I hear the
women in argentine tango are more stylish and pretty hot, and it's close
embrace -- that would explain it ;)

The subculture -- well, that can be sublime or it can be stifling
(tangofascismo). And one person's sublime is another person's stifling,
for sure. But that's a chestnut for another list war.

Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com) wrote:

> Dear list,
>
> While I generally agree with Sergio on this one, there's a particular
> point I'd like to counter-- namely:
>
> Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>> Unless you spend time with somebody that knows the music and is able to teach you tango musicality it is obvious that you, by yourself will never discover the pleasure of listening and dancing to real tango music.
> I agree that there IS a particular musicality and therefore movement for
> tango, largely due to the nature of the music itself (its articulation
> and its content), and secondarily due to the embrace. BUT I do not
> believe this necessarily needs to be passed down like a family recipe.
> Someone with a keen ear and an intuitive sense of movement-- and a sense
> of poetry (for the Argentines are a _literate_ people)-- can figure it
> out with some effort.
>
> I state this solely on behalf of the exceptions to the general rule, who
> are better off on their own than seeking counsel from dancers who reduce
> all musicality to rhythm and (inevitably) to _counting_, which is the
> least part of it.
>
> On the other hand, as an additional support for Sergio's argument, I
> might point out that (in my experience) those with a wealth of other
> dance experience-- whether in jazz, salsa, ballet, hip-hop, or
> whatever-- tend to have more trouble Getting It. They often want the
> dance to be something it isn't, and because of that they can't see what
> it is...
>
> A clear and present example of this latter type might be Mr. "meaning of
> life." A lot of "movement" experience, and a wife who teaches some other
> dance, doesn't really mean shit when it comes to tango. You don't need
> prior dance experience, and I often think it's better if you don't have
> any. What you need is a body that can move, a true taste for the music,
> and a mind that can comprehend that tango isn't "dance," but a
> subculture-- the dance being only one facet of it.
>
> Jake
> DC
> .
>

--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.com






Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 17:38:37 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600709291738k3751912bs4aa7e51764b670dc@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Krasimir,

Why don't you write some more specifics, so I get a better idea of
your expectaitons and preferences before answering? For example, what
are these 1-2 tangos (and interpreted by whom?) you are talking about
that are not easy to dance to? And are we talking about Orquesta
tipicas here (generally tango bands with some 8-9 or more musicians)?
Because I was, generally - I am less interested in the quintetos and
cuartetos and smaller, and some sextetos and septetos are more
interesting than others in terms of the characteristics of their
sound. But the most exciting recent development has been the
resurgence of the OT - orquesta tipica format.

With best regards,

Konstantin
Victoria, Canada


On 9/29/07, Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote:

>
> From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
>
> > music styles and (2) continuing the evolution. There are also new
> > classical tangos being composed. There is an explosion of activity,
> > mostly centered in Buenos Aires and Argentina, and this newest wave
> > started almost ten years ago.
>
> How many really good (danceable) tangos are composed these ten years?
>
> I know one or two, and they are not so easy to dance to.
>
> And I say it not because I hate classical tango music, but because I like
> it - and I'd love to see new compositions are emerging.
>
> I would be grateful if you provide information, or even samples of such
> music. We, here in Sofia, know nothing about it. I regularly search YouTube
> for tango related videos, and never saw a performance on (of) new tango
> music.





Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 02:49:16 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>


This is about Jake's comments with whom I agree in great part.

I said "> Unless you spend time with somebody that knows the music and is able to teach you tango musicality it is obvious that you, by yourself will never discover the pleasure of listening and dancing to real tango music."

Jake replied " BUT I do not believe this necessarily needs to be passed down like a family recipe. Someone with a keen ear and an intuitive sense of movement-- and a sense of poetry (for the Argentines are a _literate_ people)-- can figure it out with some effort." - he does not agree with me on this point (learning musicality).

I am very precise when I am talking to Meaning of Life. He has been dancing tango for about five years and has problems finding the beat and dislikes the traditional tango Music. Obviously he does not fall under "someone with a keen ear, ...etc.

I was talking to him in particular and to all those that have similar problems (they are many).

With respect to teaching musicality Jake talks about counting the moves or steps:

We never count to teach tango, as traditionally we think that counting slows down the learning process as people continue counting for a very long time distracting their concentration from elements that more important than the steps themselves. Tango figures or steps are many and frequently short ones to be combined in different forms, so it is a waste of time to count.

As to those with experience in other ballroom dances or ballet, there could be two aspects:

1- They come with preconceived ideas that they wish to apply to Argentine tango, not realizing that this dance is totally different from the others.

2 - On the other hand they have valuable skills as to lead and follow and in reference to the dancing frame.

As to tango being a subculture: (this is true in many places).

When you become a real milonguero, frequently you live as such:

You listen to tango music all the time: when you wake up getting ready to go to work, in the car as you drive, with your I-pod when you walk or exercise. (When I get on somebody's car if he is listening to tango music I know that he is a good tango dancer. If he listens to other type of music then I have mu doubts).

The music produces a deep emotion in you which sometimes makes you happy, sometimes makes you sad, and occasionally moves you to tears.

You get home in the evening to take a shower, change clothes and then go to the practica or the milonga. There you sit for a while, sip some wine, talk to a few friends and then when the right orchestra inspires you, you start dancing with real joy.

I recently took a cab to go to a milonga in Buenos Aires, I directed the driver to take me to a local club.
As he drove we talked about how much he missed dancing tango (his wife developed some for of arthritis and stopped dancing). After a while as I was entering the club I notice that he had parked his cab and was in line ready to buy an entry ticket...I realized then that he was a real milonguero.

I do not wish to make this note too long, so... till next time.

With best regards, Sergio



News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now!
http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx





Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:08:36 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dance What You Love To Hear WAS Re: Tango Music
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Carol,

I competely agree with you. The more you learn any kind of dance,
the easier it is to learn a new dance. And I think every dancer knows this.
Makes me think that Jake is not a dancer. Either that or he's been dancing
so long that he's forgotten what it was like to be a non-dancer. Considering
his posts on Tango-L, I suspect it's the latter.

Keith, HK

On Sun Sep 30 3:31 , Carol Shepherd sent:

>
>I couldn't disagree more strongly with Jake, that one is better off
>learning argentine tango without previous dance experience. Training in
>coordinated rhythmic body movement and experience in creating a frame
>and a connection with a partner, and in communicating lead and follow,
>put a new tango dancer light years ahead of someone who is inexperienced
>and has no comfort with coordinated body movement and/or social dancing.
> It's true that dancers get ahead of themselves and perceive
>similarities between dances that aren't there, and it can be hard to
>undo ingrained habits. An excellent dance teacher should know enough
>about the basic structure of all the popular social dances, to know
>about the differentials in frame, posture, lead and follow, style, and
>vocabulary of moves, and be able to help translate for these
>'cross-dancers'.
>







Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:14:02 +0300
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>

ok, numbers aside, I don't want to do any counting.

Here is one example, I love the music, but when I tried dancing to it, it
was almost impossible:

http://www.sinrumbo-tango.com/media/mp3/CiudadAusente.mp3

Another example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtuh2dfTbBE

And for me, it doesn't matter if it is Orquesta Tipica, or trio, quarteto or
quinteto or . . . .

I want danceable tango music. And it looks like it is specific enough that
the composers don't get it right.

So, will you be so kind to show me some recent compositions, that are both
danceable and touching?

Actually, I've found some, but most of them are overly dramatic, like
something to dance on a stage - need space and choreographing.

http://www.orquestaimperial.com.ar/int/musica_nuestros_tangos.html


----- Original Message -----



Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music


> Hi Krasimir,
>
> Why don't you write some more specifics, so I get a better idea of
> your expectaitons and preferences before answering? For example, what
> are these 1-2 tangos (and interpreted by whom?) you are talking about
> that are not easy to dance to? And are we talking about Orquesta
> tipicas here (generally tango bands with some 8-9 or more musicians)?
> Because I was, generally - I am less interested in the quintetos and
> cuartetos and smaller, and some sextetos and septetos are more
> interesting than others in terms of the characteristics of their
> sound. But the most exciting recent development has been the
> resurgence of the OT - orquesta tipica format.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Konstantin
> Victoria, Canada
>
>
> On 9/29/07, Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
>>
>> > music styles and (2) continuing the evolution. There are also new
>> > classical tangos being composed. There is an explosion of activity,
>> > mostly centered in Buenos Aires and Argentina, and this newest wave
>> > started almost ten years ago.
>>
>> How many really good (danceable) tangos are composed these ten years?
>>
>> I know one or two, and they are not so easy to dance to.
>>
>> And I say it not because I hate classical tango music, but because I like
>> it - and I'd love to see new compositions are emerging.
>>
>> I would be grateful if you provide information, or even samples of such
>> music. We, here in Sofia, know nothing about it. I regularly search
>> YouTube
>> for tango related videos, and never saw a performance on (of) new tango
>> music.






Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 07:20:41 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dance What You Love To Hear WAS Re: Tango Music
To: shepherd@arborlaw.com, "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)"
<spatz@tangodc.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>


On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:31:13 -0400, "Carol Shepherd"
<arborlaw@comcast.net> said:

> I couldn't disagree more strongly with Jake, that one is better off
> learning argentine tango without previous dance experience. Training in
> coordinated rhythmic body movement and experience in creating a frame
> and a connection with a partner, and in communicating lead and follow,
> put a new tango dancer light years ahead of someone who is inexperienced
> and has no comfort with coordinated body movement and/or social dancing.
>
> It's true that dancers get ahead of themselves and perceive
> similarities between dances that aren't there, and it can be hard to
> undo ingrained habits.

I believe Jake was speaking to the notion that tango newbies with
extensive experience in other styles find it difficult to drop all
the stuff that comes with those dances when the tango music starts
up.

And not just newbies ... I regularly see long time teachers who
show an obvious background in other dances in their quality of
movement when they dance tango.

Just as only the great dancers of tango develop their own styles
that don't show the direct influence of their teachers, it's easy
to spot the people in the room who came to tango from another dance,
and which dance they came from ... all you need is eyes to see.

If you want to get down to nuts and bolts, there are very few excellent
dancers of tango who dance other styles well ... the divergence is just
too great for a normal talent to bridge the gap.

> An excellent dance teacher should know enough
> about the basic structure of all the popular social dances, to know
> about the differentials in frame, posture, lead and follow, style, and
> vocabulary of moves, and be able to help translate for these
> 'cross-dancers'.

Those of us interested in dancing tango as well as we can ... we tend
to avoid obvious cross-dancers. Life's too short to suck at 2 things
at once.






Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 07:32:47 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Music
To: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>, "Tango-L"
<tango-l@mit.edu>


On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:14:02 +0300, "Krasimir Stoyanov"
<krasimir@krasimir.com> said:

> ok, numbers aside, I don't want to do any counting.
>
> Here is one example, I love the music, but when I tried dancing to it, it
> was almost impossible:
>
> http://www.sinrumbo-tango.com/media/mp3/CiudadAusente.mp3

Yeah, there's a stream of very similar music that modern tango bands are
producing. I wish the experiment would play itself out ... it's nice
for
listening but it's not for dancing.

> Another example:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtuh2dfTbBE

Yet another Piazzola clone band. Nice stuff, but you might as well
dance
to Bach's Toccatta and Fugue in D Minor.

> And for me, it doesn't matter if it is Orquesta Tipica, or trio, quarteto
> or
> quinteto or . . . .
>
> I want danceable tango music. And it looks like it is specific enough
> that the composers don't get it right.

Actually, it's not just the composers. There is stuff going on in
Golden Age recordings that can never be captured in any musical
notation, it does need passing down culturally.

Christopher







Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:12:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] tango music
To: tango-l list <tango-l@mit.edu>

Is there an e-mail list with the focus on tango music? Thank you.

===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================






Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:37:18 -0400
From: Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango music
To: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>, tango-l list
<tango-l@mit.edu>

At 07:12 PM 4/16/2008, Dubravko Kakarigi wrote:

>Is there an e-mail list with the focus on tango music? Thank you.

Yes, the Tango DJ list.
Are you a milonga DJ?

Marty




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