6179  Tango Pedantics

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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:19:25 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: "'tango-l'" <tango-l@mit.edu>

So Ron, when you aspire to do Argentine Tango you mean Tango de Salon as it
applies now in BA or as it was 60 years ago?

-----Original Message-----



Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:47:45 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340811251247g72e3fdb0k524fa314f9862135@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> So Ron, when you aspire to do Argentine Tango you mean Tango de Salon as it
> applies now in BA or as it was 60 years ago?

Vince,

There are milongueros dancing today who danced 50-60 years ago. They
are representatives of that era. Some are learning from the
instruction of those milongueros who teach. Many more are learning by
observing milongueros in the milongas. Although many dancers in the
milongas of Buenos Aires lack the skills of milongueros, they dance in
a similar manner, in a close embrace, staying in the line of dance,
keeping their feet close to the floor, paying close attention to and
improvising on the music. These are characteristics of the dance that
have remained constant over time in Tango de Salon.

In Nuevo the embrace is elastic, feet are lifted off the floor, and
improvisation in movement does not restrict the dancer to staying
within a progressive line of dance. Oftentimes the structure of the
music is ignored. This is a fundamentally different dance.

Ron


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
> Tango Society of Central Illinois
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2008 7:03 AM
> To: tango-l
> Subject: [Tango-L] Silly and pedantic Argentine Tango
>
> Likewise, there is Argentine tango that is danced in Argentina. It
> ***resembles_closely_an_ancestral_form*** danced 60 years ago in Buenos
> Aires. Argentines differentiate Tango de Salon, that which is danced
> is danced socially in the milongas of Buenos Aires, and Tango
> Fantasia, which is danced for exhibition, i.e., not as a social dance.
>
>





Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:34:12 EST
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Vince Wrote;

> So Ron, when you aspire to do Argentine Tango you mean Tango de Salon as it
> applies now in BA or as it was 60 years ago?

Actually the tango de salon that is danced today is pretty much the same as
it was then anyway. Tango de salon never went away nor really changed that
much, if at all. It is stilled danced very much like Virulazo and Petroleo and
many of the great ones did in that era. In the tango revival, post-1984, its
popularity may have diminished with the surge of nuevo and other styles, but
it is still alive and well. It is not retro.

Cheers,
Charles



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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:39:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Thanks Charles:

> From: "Crrtango@aol.com" <Crrtango@aol.com>
>
> Actually the tango de salon that is danced today is pretty much the same as
> it was then anyway.? Tango de salon never went away nor really changed that
> much, if at all. >


And Ron:



> From: Tango Society of Central Illinois tango.society@gmail.com

>? Although many dancers in the
> milongas of Buenos Aires lack the skills of milongueros, they dance in
> a similar manner, in a close embrace, staying in the line of dance,
> keeping their feet close to the floor, paying close attention to and
> improvising on the music. These are characteristics of the dance that
> have remained constant over time in Tango de Salon.
>

I'm sure many people get sick of hearing what you guys say, but it's true
and the message needs to be kept alive. I'm one of those who believes that
it's not possible to truly understand Tango without regular visits to BsAs to
dance in the milongas and to see what it really is. Yes, you can love Tango
as a dance, and often that's enough,?but really understanding it is something
else. Having said that, I often wonder whether it's possible to truly understand
Tango without being Argentine. But we can always try.

Jack










Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:35:04 EST
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: jackdylan007@yahoo.com, TANGO-L@mit.edu


In a message dated 11/25/08 9:40:23 PM, jackdylan007@yahoo.com writes:


> Having said that, I often wonder whether it's possible to truly understand
> Tango without being Argentine. But we can always try.
>

It is possible, but it presupposes a respect for the tradition, culture, and
history of the dance. My experience has been that they respect and applaud
good dancers, no matter where you are from.

Cheers,
Charles


**************
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:27:13 -0700
From: David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>


Charles wrote:
"Actually the tango de salon that is danced today is pretty much the same as
it was then anyway. Tango de salon never went away nor really changed that
much, if at all. It is stilled danced very much like Virulazo and Petroleo and
many of the great ones did in that era.... "

Interesting.

http://tangoandchaos.org/chapt_3search/3petroleo.htm

http://tangoandchaos.org/chapt_3search/11petroleofinal.htm

Is this how we should all look? Hunched over with bent legs? I'm not intending any disrespect,
because, as you all probably know, I am one of those "nearly anything goes dancers." But I do
imagine that a number of regular posters to this list would find much to criticize about this
style if it were to appear in their milonga today.

Probably not even Argentine Tango. Don'cha think?

David



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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:03:24 EST
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: thorn-inside@hotmail.com, TANGO-L@mit.edu

David wrote:

"Is this how we should all look?? Hunched over with bent legs?? I'm not
intending any disrespect,
because, as you all probably know, I am one of those "nearly anything goes
dancers."? But I do
imagine that a number of regular posters to this list would find much to
criticize about this
style if it were to appear in their milonga today."?

Touche! Admittedly, Petroleo is not the best example of elegance, but
Virulazo is, or Chino, who is still dancing. My mistake, I was grouping them more
by generation. Yes, Petroleo has more of his own personal, quirky style.
In these photos (I have seen the video they are from.) he is dancing with
someone shorter also. But even so he is quite adept at performing intricate
steps while in close embrace. In a broader sense though, tango de salon includes
close-embrace dancing in general, and not doing open-style figures, and my
reference is to that also. My larger point was that the close embrace
tradition has never really gone away and is still danced the same today as it was
then, including the personal styles of its interpreters.

Cheers,
Charles


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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:29:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu



--- On Wed, 11/26/08, Crrtango@aol.com <Crrtango@aol.com> wrote:

> Touche! Admittedly, Petroleo is not the best example of
> elegance, but Virulazo is, or Chino, who is still dancing.

I read the text in the second post, which was about the evolution of the embrace from a side embrace to a front embrace. The argument regarding the photos is that the embrace had to change to reflect the musicality that Petroleo felt. In that context, Petroleo's dance could be inelegant. I don't know what year the video was taken, perhaps before the more modern-embrace was adopted by most. The photos could be mixing apples and oranges.

Trini de Pittsburgh








Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:31:01 -0600
From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>

About Petroleo's dancing....

Charles Roque said:

> [Tango Salon] is stilled danced very much like Virulazo and Petroleo
> and many of the great ones did in that era.... "

David Thorn responded by citing links to some pages of Rick McGarrey's
commentary on the video clip of Petroleo dancing and commenting on them.

> Interesting.
> http://tangoandchaos.org/chapt_3search/3petroleo.htm http://tangoandchaos.org/chapt_3search/11petroleofinal.htm
> Is this how we should all look? Hunched over with bent legs? I'm not
> intending any disrespect, because, as you all probably know, I am
> one of those "nearly anything goes dancers." But I do imagine that
> a number of regular posters to this list would find much to
> criticize about this style if it were to appear in their milonga
> today.

I first saw this clip of Petroleo on a video tape collection that
Michelangel Zotto produced called, I think, "Perfumes of Tango". It
also had some archival home video footage of Fino, Virulazo, and
Todaro dancing with his daughter.

Once after a lesson with Mingo Pugliese, I asked him about this
dancing of Petroleo on the tape. I described the dancing (I didn't
have the tape with me), and I demonstrated the movements he was
making, with the sideways crawl and the dragging of his foot. And the
hunched over posture. Mingo said that, yes, he knew the video clip I
was talking about. He was very curious to know how I had managed to
acquire it. He was surprised I had seen it. I told him it was on
Zotto's tape, which he was familiar with. I then asked Mingo, "Is this
really how Petroleo danced?" It seemed to me completely opposite to
the modern style that, for example, Mingo teaches, and which Mingo
attributes to some extent to innovations of Petroleo and his cohort.

Mingo said that the clip was showing, not how Petroleo danced, but how
they used to dance in the old days, _before_ the developments (read
improvements) that Petroleo and his cohort brought into the tango.
Petroleo was demonstrating this primitive tango to some people, and
someone taped him.

This claim of Mingo's is the opposite of Rick McGarrey's conjecture,
on the pages that David Thorn references, that the video shows
"Petroleo's style". I have always intended to write to Rick about what
I was told by Mingo, but I never took the time.

Mingo and Petroleo were part of the same crowd of dancers. Rick, if
you are reading this, you might compare notes on Petroleo with Mingo
someday.

Joe Grohens







Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:39:57 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

So Petroleo improved tango and thus it evolved. About when did this all
happen?



-----Original Message-----



Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2008 6:31 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics






Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:21:17 -0600
From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>

Vince said:

> So Petroleo improved tango and thus it evolved. About when did this
> all happen?

That's what some people say, and apparently what Petroleo himself
thought. I take it with a grain of salt, but Petroleo is definitely
someone worth researching.

See:

- http://www.todotango.com/english/creadores/petroleo.asp

- http://www.planet-tango.com/elfiru/petroleo.htm

He danced from 1928-1988.

I always imagined that this innovation period of Petroleo was in the
1940s, but I don't know really know the dates.

I remember an interview with Carlos Copello (which I can't find at the
moment) where talks about his early days dancing before he became a
performer (so I guess, early 1980s). Copello says he worked in a
produce warehouse during the day. At night he would be at a practica,
where Petroleo was inventing all kinds of crazy things. He would come
from there to work. (If anyone recognizes this interview and can send
me the link I will be grateful.)

Anyway... so perhaps Petroleo was innovating into the 1980s. I don't
know.

In one of the Trenner tour tapes (1992?) he interviewed Lampazo, who
said that (paraphrasing) "everything we dance today was started by
Petroleo." The interview was at Cochabamba 444, so perhaps it is a
regional tango they are talking about.








Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:36:01 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: tango-l@mit.edu

If you really want to know about Petroleo and his contribution to
tango, talk to Mingo Pugliese the next time you are in BsAs. He and
Esther have carried his legacy through the decades. (444 Cochabamba
was a legendary place for many years, where Mingo had his amazing
practica). The cross for the woman and the turns as we know them
9with sacadas and entradas) owe much to Petroleo for their existence.

Vince, why don't you go and study the Tango-L archives? You might
really enjoy the posts and get many answers to frequently asked questions.:)

Best,

Nina


At 06:21 PM 12/2/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:

>Vince said:
> > So Petroleo improved tango and thus it evolved. About when did this
> > all happen?
>
>That's what some people say, and apparently what Petroleo himself
>thought. I take it with a grain of salt, but Petroleo is definitely
>someone worth researching.
>
>See:
>
>- http://www.todotango.com/english/creadores/petroleo.asp
>
>- http://www.planet-tango.com/elfiru/petroleo.htm
>
>He danced from 1928-1988.
>
>I always imagined that this innovation period of Petroleo was in the
>1940s, but I don't know really know the dates.
>
>I remember an interview with Carlos Copello (which I can't find at the
>moment) where talks about his early days dancing before he became a
>performer (so I guess, early 1980s). Copello says he worked in a
>produce warehouse during the day. At night he would be at a practica,
>where Petroleo was inventing all kinds of crazy things. He would come
>from there to work. (If anyone recognizes this interview and can send
>me the link I will be grateful.)
>
>Anyway... so perhaps Petroleo was innovating into the 1980s. I don't
>know.
>
>In one of the Trenner tour tapes (1992?) he interviewed Lampazo, who
>said that (paraphrasing) "everything we dance today was started by
>Petroleo." The interview was at Cochabamba 444, so perhaps it is a
>regional tango they are talking about.
>
>
>






Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:05:12 +0900
From: Astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Joe Grohens wrote:

> About Petroleo's dancing....
>
>
>> Is this how we should all look? Hunched over with bent legs?

yup. LOL ; )





Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:46:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
To: tango-l@mit.edu

> From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
>
> Mingo said that the clip was showing, not how Petroleo danced, but how?
> they used to dance in the old days, _before_ the developments (read?
> improvements) that Petroleo and his cohort brought into the tango.?
> Petroleo was demonstrating this primitive tango to some people, and?
> someone taped him.
>

Thanks Joe; it's amazing what you can find out if you talk to the right
people. And this illustrates the fact that you shouldn't judge someone's
dancing solely on the basis of a single, unauthorised video. Especially
if you're going to critique it on a popular website, or on Tango-L for that
matter.

Jack










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