193  Tango Styles and freedom of religion.

ARTICLE INDEX


Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:55:02 -0700
From: JEAN LEDUC <jean_leduc22@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles and freedom of religion.

As I understand it there are three main tango styles. Salon, milonguero and
Nuevo Tango. Milonguero may have different names and some variations in form
(Confiteria, Del Centro, Close Embrace, "Salon", Club).

Everyone is free to dance in the style he/she prefers. Those that know all
the styles have no problems adjusting to the different circumstances. Music,
floor, partner's preference, etc. It is obvious that most ladies in Buenos
Aires can dance any style but that they have a certain preference for one
particular one. There are ladies that only know milonguero or salon. Most
New Tango dancers can dance salon with no problem.
Some difficulty arises when a leader tries dancing a style that his partner
is not familiar with. The lady does not know the ocho milonguero (cortado)
for instance. Here (imo) it is better to dance the way she feels more
comfortable with.

In Buenos Aires there are clubs where only a style is danced. People go to
those clubs to dance "only" in that style.
Milonguero or Salon for instance. To go to a Milonguero Club to dance Salon
would be a big mistake. As a leader you will probably will be accepted only
once, period. You will seat for the rest of the night. As a follower you
will be frustrated as all the leaders will dance Milonguero.

Freedom (imo) works both ways, you may dance the way you prefer but a group
of people also have the right to dance the way they like without any sort
off interference.

Here I am talking about people that know how to dance. I am not talking
about those that independently of their style ignore the rules of the dance.
Those will be a problem in any club dancing any style.

I mean, the floor is crowded nobody is going to try to do big steps, throw
ganchos, boleos, amagues, try to do long intricate figures, jumps or do
static moves that will obstruct the normal flow of the crowd.
Under these circumstances one dances in a very compact way, moving with the
rest of the dancers without changing lanes, trying not to collide or
disturbe anybody.
If I like Salon I go to a place where that style is danced, if I like
Milonguero I will not go to that particular place, the same that I would not
go to Denver, CO. to dance Salon during their Milonguero event, I find all
this very basic common sense, but common sense is not very common sometimes.
When I learn to comply with the above then I am practicing real democracy
and freedom of religion.

Can we go to places where people dance in all different styles plus their
own variations? Certainly we can.
We have to know that such places exist, there is plenty of room to dance so
the New Tangueros move all over the floor throwing ganchos, boleos, amagues,
the Salonist move slowly with elegance while the Milonguerists do their own
little steps in a corner. This is paradise! No problem, do you see any?
Vive la difference!




Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 17:23:52 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles and freedom of religion.

JEAN LEDUC wrote:

> If I like Salon I go to a place where that style is danced, if I like
> Milonguero I will not go to that particular place, the same that I would not
> go to Denver, CO. to dance Salon during their Milonguero event,

I'm from Denver.
I attended our milonguero weekend.
For two tandas, I danced open-embrace, in the outer circle,
in a compact formation, with no collisions even during boleos.
I've been in B.A. next to Osvaldo Zotto as he did the same
on a crowded floor.
Salon style doesn't need a lot of room.


> We have to know that such places exist, there is plenty of room to dance so
> the New Tangueros move all over the floor throwing ganchos, boleos, amagues,
> the Salonist move slowly with elegance while the Milonguerists do their own
> little steps in a corner. This is paradise! No problem, do you see any?

At our milonguero weekend, the "milonguerists" danced in two, sometimes
three circles around the room, pulsating with the music, moving together
as if a single body.
The others danced in the space remaining in the center.
It worked out quite well.

Deejay Dave,
from Denver




Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:23:18 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Tango Styles

Some recent discussions on Tango-L may have perpetuated a view that
Argentine tango can be described as having two major branches----a social
branch known as "milonguero" and an exhibtion branch known as
salon/fantasia. From a historical perspective, this view seems pretty
weak.

One can readily identify five social styles of tango, salon, orillero,
milonguero, club and nuevo. See
www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html> and
<http://www.tango-rio.com/tango.htm>.

Breaks in tango's history make it difficult to ferret out historical
authenticity on the basis of what most people currently dance socially.
Nor does stage dancing offer much insight into social styles of tango. To
find the historical roots of social tango, the best choice is to look at
the social styles of older dancers--some of whom have now passed away. In
doing so, what one most readily finds is a salon-style, orillero-style and
club-style tango. Yet looking at these styles, it is possible to see a
natural evoulution to nuevo-style tango. One can also find many historical
precedents for Tete's personal style--which formed much of the basis for
what is now considered milonguero-style.

Examining fantasia against the background of these social styles, one can
readily see that fantasia draws upon the idioms of social tango. In
particular, fantasia liberally uses elements of salon-, orillero- and
nuevo- style tango, but fantasia is typically danced in an open embrace
with exaggerated movements and additional elements (often taken from
ballet) that are not part of the social tango vocabulary. These balletic
elements fit well with salon-style tango because the partnering in
open-embrace salon-style tango is similar to that in ballet. Those who see
fantasia dancing without understanding to what extent it draws upon social
dance idioms seem to become easily confused.

Ignorance of the old salon-style tango (which some have suggested is
disappearing) removes a key for understanding how the various styles relate
to each other. All of the other styles--orillero, milonguero, club, nuevo
and fantasia--are obviously related to old salon-style tango, even though
they seem more distantly related to each other.

Such ignorance is understandable, however. In many social dance venues,
the old salon-style tango has been supplanted by a flashier salon/fantasia
hybrid and/or a simpler milonguero style. Those who lack experience with
or knowledge of the other social forms of tango find it easy to believe
that Argentine tango has two major branches.

With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)




Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:31:42 -0700
From: ruddy zelaya <ruddy.zelaya@SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Dear Steve,
I read your latest posting with interest and I'm afraid that
I have to disagree with you. Your concluding remark that "Those who
lack experience with or knowledge of the other social forms of
tango find it easy to believe that Argentine tango has two major
branches", specially, prompt me to reply because it leaves me with the
impression that a) those who believe the aforementioned statement
are mistaken, and b) that the arguments presented in your message
are satisfying enough to refute that theory. I dispute both points.

Let me start off by saying (in a good way, you know me ;-) that your
statement "Breaks in tango's history make it difficult to ferret out
historical authenticity on the basis of what most people currently
dance socially" is not correct. Barring the nebulous origin of the
term "tango", an absolute "birth" date for the dance, and certification
of its "parents" (whence it came), very little remains that is open
to controversy or dispute. Through the work of eminent "tangologists"
such as Jose Gobello, Horacio Salas, Horacio Ferrer, Francisco Garcia
Jimenez, Fernando Asssuncão, to mention just a handful out of hundreds,
we tango history afficionados are able to have most questions answered.

To "find the historical roots of social tango" the best choice is
precisely not to look at the social styles of older dancers (I'll
explain myself in a minute) but rather explore the writings of the
people who witnessed it and committed their thoughts to paper.
I'll start my explanation by asking the following question, is your
vocabulary today the same as it was 20-30-40(!) years ago? If the
answer -I suspect- is no, then if we think of tango as a way of
communicating between dancing partners using an specific vocabulary
doesn't it follow that a similar maturation process is likely to
have had happen? I submit that the probability of older dancers
(in their 60-70s or even 80s) dancing today the same way as they
did when they were teenagers or twentysomethings is slim to nil.
Fortunately, there are quite a few descriptions of what the dance
looked like back in those days. Memory is fallible. Written records
can be trusted.

The belief that there is something mysterious or unknown about the
evolution of tango is due in part to the real controversy surrounding
its origins, i.e., we don't know for sure the exact ratios in which
the different "parent dances" were blended in order to come up with
the first "true" tango dance. But once we go beyond that, there is
enough historical (as in written) evidence to diagram the evolution
of the dance from its earliest forms to today's. Thus, in its main
parts that history looks like this:

Liso --> Salon --> Apilado
/1880s-1910s 1910s-today 1940s-today \
/ Nuevo (1990s-today)
/ /
Proto-Tango --> Canyengue --> Orillero --> Cabaret --> Fantasia
1850s-1870s 1870s-1920s 1880s-1930s 1940s-1950s 1950s-today

Bear in mind that history is a continuum and social change (barring
revolutions or natural catastrophes) is never abrupt. Thus, a certain
amount of overlap has always occurred. Just as today Salon, Apilado,
Fantasia, and Nuevo coexist, there was a time when Canyengue, Liso,
Salon and Orillero coexisted. Moreover, there have been several
"revivals" or "retro" movements that bring back archaic forms of the
dance (and music) back in vogue. Apilado, for example, that dates back to
the 1940s, all but dissapeared during the 60's and 70's but is back
in fashion today. Dancers danced the appropriate style according
to venue, likes, and abilities. Cabaret tango (also called show
tango) evolved into tango-for-export and became Fantasia tango when
ballet idioms were added. True Canyengue and Orillero, alas, are no more.

The reason why I trace a direct line from the proto-tango to Fantasia
is that, historically speaking, tango Fantasia is the closest in spirit
to the "true" tango. Tango from its inception was a way for the males
to show-off in front of each other and more importantly, the females.
It was flamboyant, exciting to watch, shameless in its look-at-me
selfpromotion, and a way to scream to the four winds I-AM-THE-BEST-PICK-ME
without having to say it in so many words.

As you state, tango Fantasia draws from Salon, and Orillero (on Nuevo
I disagree because the converse is more likely) as well as ballet.
It has to. Tango Liso, Salon or Apilado do not lend themselves well
to be "watchable" by non-tango dancers sitting several yards away from
a stage. To be quite honest, that has as much appeal as watching commuter
traffic. Thus, it is by necessity that tango Fantasia is the way it
is: Open so that the audience can see the bodies, flamboyant so that
the people on row J of the Third Tier can understand what it is that
the dancers are saying to each other, and balletic to enhance the
meager set of idioms available to a social tango dancer.

Tango Fantasia is one branch. The second branch started with the
tango Liso (liso=simple). Viejo Tanguero wrote in 1913 as follows:
"Interpreted by the girls -for the most part italians- that couldn't
adapt to the movement given to it by the true stock criollos and it was
then that the name <<tango liso>> was given to it." Thus, tango Liso
diverges from Canyengue in that it was a tamed version of it, without
ondulations, crude movements (cortes y quebradas), and less cadence.
That's the tango that went to Paris. The tango that came back to America
was a "tango afrancesado" -Frenchy tango- and one that the purists condemned
as not being the "true" tango anymore even back then in the late 1910s.
By blending ballroom idioms with the tango Liso you end up with tango
de Salon. By shortening Salon tango idioms you end up with tango Apilado
(or milonguero, club, petitero or the less charitable caquero, etc.)

I think it is too early to classify Nuevo tango into the first or the
second major branch. Salsa is a melange of rumba, mambo, danzon, cumbia,
bolero, tango(!!), etc. The so-called Nuevo tango is the Salsa of tango
(I don't mean that disparingly so put yer guns away ;-) in that it borrows
from every tango style and even non-tango dances. To wit, it has walks
and giros like tango Salon, the man's left arm can be Salon, Canyengue,
or Apilado, the dancers may break off the embrace (the trade mark of tango)
and turn on their axis entirely a la swing or salsa, etc., etc.
If Nuevo tango becomes the dominant style at the milongas then it will
become the rightful heir to the Salon tango branch. If stage dancers adopt it
and it becomes accepted by the international audiences then it would sit
squarely on the Fantasia branch. It can also continue on its own, thus
giving rise to a third branch. Or it may become extinct once the fad
wears off (does anybody remember swango? -swing + tango; tango rueda?
tango + contra(??); malango? -malambo + tango; sango? -samba + tango).

So, in my opinion there are two major branches of tango (at least for now)
dating all the way back to the 1880s with Salon and Fantasia at their ends.
Truth be told, though, the whole thing is academic. It's all tango after
all. One should enjoy whatever variant they like best as long as they
don't interfere with others or spook the horses ;-)

Best regards to you and Susan.
---
ruddy




Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:06:31 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Ruddy Zelaya wrote:

>There is enough historical (as in written) evidence to diagram
>the evolution of the dance from its earliest forms to today's.
>Thus, in its main parts that history looks like this:
>
> Liso --> Salon --> Apilado
> /1880s-1910s 1910s-today 1940s-today \
> / Nuevo
> / / 1990s-today
>Proto-Tango-->Canyengue-->Orillero-->Cabaret --> Fantasia
>1850s-1870s 1870s-1920s 1880s-1930s 1940s-1950s 1950s-today

>So, in my opinion there are two major branches of tango

At least we agree that the two branches are not salon/fantasia and
milonguero. ;-)

Although I respect your timeline, I do see the recent history a little
differently.

First we must recognize that tango is danced in a spectrum of
individualistic or
personal styles, and many tango dancers who are Argentine do not accept a
categorization of their own dancing by any broad stylistic name. They
simply say they are dancing tango, their own style, or the style of their
neighborhood or city. In addition, a few confuse the issue further by
identifying their own style by a name that other dancers associate with a
different style. Consequently, clearly describing the characteristic of
various styles has been challenging, potentially controversial, and
possibly
misleading.

One of the difficulties I have with Ruddy's evolution of tango chart, is
that it seems to rely more heavily on step content than rhythmic
sensibilities. This is most evident in showing apilado in the salon
branch. This style seems to have rhythmic sensibilities from the
canyengue/orrilero branch. Hence, I would be inclined to show this as a
new branch.

In addition, what Ruddy calls "apilado" others have divided into two
styles--club and milonguero. Club has a close embrace but not the apilado
embrace that characterizes milonguero. Hence, I could not combine these
styles under the label "apilado."

Fantasia seems to have roots the canyengue/orillero branch Ruddy shows it
evolving from, but it also seems to draw from salon tango, particularly in
its rhythmic sensibilities.

I agree that fantasia emerged before nuevo tango, but today's fantasia does
seem draw upon nuevo.

It appears to me that nuevo draws primarily from fantasia, but also from
social dance traditions of both salon and orillero. I do not really see
elements of club- or milonga-style tango in nuevo--either from a rhythmic
perspective or on the basis of step content. Maybe others would disagree.

Liquid tango, which I think has developed primarily from nuevo, does
incorporate elements of club-style tango.

In addition, some dancers see orillero as surviving to today. Let's
continue all branches that are surviving to today along with their
offshoots, and let's integrate the rhythmic sensibilities along with step
content. My result is as follows:

Proto-Tango
/
\
Canyengue
/ \
\ Liso
/ \
Orillero Salon
\-->\---------------->\------------->\ /
/ \ \ \ \
\ \ /<-----\---------/<---\<----/<----/
/ \ / \ \ \ / \
\ Club/Milonguero \ / Cabaret /
/ \ \ \ \ \ \
\ / \ \ / / /
/ \ \ \ \ Fantasia \
\ / \ \ / / \ /
/ \ \ \ \ / / \
\ / \ \ / / \ /
/ \ \ \\/ / \
\ / \ Nuevo \ /
/ \ \ / / \ / \
\ / \ / \ \ \ /
/ \ \ / / \ / \
Orillero Club/Milonguero Liquid Nuevo Fantasia Salon

If we leave club and milonguero joined as one style, we are left with six
branches of styles today. If we ask which branches are major, however, we
find that the mixed heritage of the club/milonguero, liquid, neuvo and
fantasia make it difficult to draw any conclusion.

If we combine our branches on the basis of step content, as Ruddy seems to
do, we can argue that the two major branches are orillero/fantasia/nuevo
and salon/club/milonguero, as he has done. If we combine our branches on
the basis of rhythmic sensibilities, as some others might do, we can argue
that the two major branches of tango are orillero/club/milonguero and
salon/fantasia/nuevo.

>Truth be told, though, the whole thing is academic. It's all tango after
>all. One should enjoy whatever variant they like best as long as they
>don't interfere with others or spook the horses ;-)

I agree, but apparently Eduardo Arquimbau does not as reported by Linda
Valentino:

>{An]other observation that Eduardo made is the tendency for Americans to

mix

>styles within one tango, which he thinks looks really bad. He (and other
>teachers I've spoken to) believe that it's fine to dance more than one
>style, but that you dance only one style within one tango, depending on

the

>music.

I do not find it too surprising that we Americans mix historical styles of
tango as we dance. First, most of us have studied with a variety of
teachers, who rarely identify their style with a particular era. Second,
few of us have a sufficient historical knowledge of styles to distinguish
them. Third, we can see by looking at the historical chart that new styles
combine elements of previous styles with new innovations.

With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)




Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:41:57 EST
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango@AOL.COM>
Subject: tango styles

We've talked about different styles of tango dancing.
Milonguero, Salon, Neuvo, etc. But in Saura's movie, "Tango"
A couple dance a rhythmic tango to the music of Tuba Tango, with an orange
background.
What name would you consider this style of tango?
Tango Traspie!
I'm just courious




Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:15:26 +0200
From: Melina Sedo <melinasedo@ONLINEHOME.DE>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Hello Sergio, hello all.

I just became a member of the Tango-L and was very surprised to find a
discussion going on which at the same time is also going on in another
dance-forum. What a coincidence.

Please forgive my bad spelling, I'm not used to writing english texts, since I
left school, which is ages ago!

Here's my opinion concerning the different styles of Tango:
Tango is such an individual dance, that every dancer (given time, practice and
inspiration) may develop his own style. Sergios definition of (for example)
Tango de Salsn may differ from the one of Manolo or the one of Gustavo... And
this is one of the characteristics of Tango: there is no standardization!

Even the very old dancers were not sure about labels. An anecdote told by
Carmen Calderon:
"I asked Cacha: Tell me, Don Benito, do you dance Tango Canyengue or Tango
Orillero?" He looked at me with big eyes: "Tango Orillero and Canyengue are the
same, they are Tango con Corte, Carmencita." "No, Tarila told me, he was
dancing Tango Orillero and you were dancing Tango Canyengue." "Well, tell that
Italian to stop going on my nerves, I'm dancing Tango con Corte, and that's
it."

If I have to define our (mine and my partners) style, I have to think hard: We
dance chest to chest with traditional elements like the Ocho Cortado (Tango
Milonguero?). We use elegant adornments (Tango de Salsn?), Alternaciones (Tango
Nuevo?) and we also dance a Voleo or a Gancho if we've got the space (Tango
Fantasia?). Well, and of course everything depends on the music. We adapt our
dance to the different of orchestras: rustic to Orquesta Tipica Victor,
elegant to di Sarli or dynamic to D'Arienzo, but we would not dance to
Piazzola! And: we teach in a very modern way, trying to analyze each movement
in order to permit more improvisation. We learned a lot from Naveira, who has a
great understanding of the structure of Tango, but we would never like to dance
like him.
So, how should I call our style???? I call it "Tango de Salsn" in reference to
the wider definition: Tango de Salsn as a contrast to Stage Tango; the Tango
which can be danced in crowded Milongas. (Sergio already refered to that.) But
of course there are others, who would say: this is not Tango de Salsn, is it
Tango Milonguero, or is it Tango Nuevo?

So, why worry about definitions. Just dance. :-)))

If you want to see the person who wrote this mail, here's my site:

www.tangodesalon.de ;-)

So far, it is only in german, but an english version will be coming soon. Under
"bilder" you will find photos, under "film" a few videos of me and my partner
dancing.

Cheers to all,

Melina, Germany




Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:49:22 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Melina,
I am so glad you wrote this. I had been worrying that Sergio's posting would
provoke yet another long, heated discussion between so-called salon dancers
and so-called milonguero dancers. Maybe it is a regional thing, and in some
places this is a big issue and in some places it is no issue at all ? I have
danced in Japan, but also Germany, Mexico and Spain, and my style, I think,
is pretty similar to yours. I have not run into any problems, (I am also
quite adaptable) and I have not heard anyone discussing "irreconciable
differences" except on tango-l. I have also met a number of people who will
use the ocho cortado AND ganchos, sacadas etc, and still dance, more or
less, in "close embrace". Is this considered a problem in the US?

Astrid, Tokyo


> If I have to define our (mine and my partners) style, I have to think

hard: We

> dance chest to chest with traditional elements like the Ocho Cortado

(Tango

> Milonguero?). We use elegant adornments (Tango de Salsn?), Alternaciones

(Tango

> Nuevo?) and we also dance a Voleo or a Gancho if we've got the space

(Tango

> Fantasia?). Well, and of course everything depends on the music. We adapt

our

> dance to the different of orchestras: rustic to Orquesta Tipica Victor,
> elegant to di Sarli or dynamic to D'Arienzo...
> Cheers to all,
>
> Melina, Germany
>




Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:30:21 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Tango styles

I could not understand clearly why this "labels" are applied to tango dancing . Unless they are "explanatory codes" to potential students to inform beforehand what they could expect within the lessons.

I have been trying to dance with the music , and this is a matter that requires thoroughly attention, before deciding what style of tango to dance, if any.

The more I try to understand how the music is composed ,the more ellusive tango music becomes. Maybe it is not too god to rationalize too much ,and it would be better to take the music into oneself without previous thoughts or pondering mind .Also to feel what is your dancing partner feeling at that music.

From all the definitions of the word music, the one I like is from Ferruccio Busoni, an italian composer. He said it is " a sonorous air " .

Why do not try to breath this air and see what happens ??

Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires




Usuario: yahoo; contraseqa: yahoo
Desde Buenos Aires: 4004-1010
Mas ciudades: clic aqum.




Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:52:14 +0200
From: Peter Wenger <Wenger-Lehrmittel@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Melina Sedo wrote:

I to would think your style is salon, but there it is the holding of
your head, is it not milongero?
I like very much this movies you are dancing a very nice style. I hope
it is possible to put other movies from other dancers to the net, so we
no about we are speaking. Dos sombody know such adresses?
Peter (sorry of my english)

>
> If I have to define our (mine and my partners) style, I have to think hard: We
> dance chest to chest with traditional elements like the Ocho Cortado (Tango
> Milonguero?). We use elegant adornments (Tango de Salsn?), Alternaciones (Tango
> Nuevo?) and we also dance a Voleo or a Gancho if we've got the space (Tango
> Fantasia?). Well, and of course everything depends on the music. We adapt our
> dance to the different of orchestras: rustic to Orquesta Tipica Victor,
> elegant to di Sarli or dynamic to D'Arienzo, but we would not dance to
> Piazzola! And: we teach in a very modern way, trying to analyze each movement
> in order to permit more improvisation. We learned a lot from Naveira, who has a
> great understanding of the structure of Tango, but we would never like to dance
> like him.
> So, how should I call our style???? I call it "Tango de Salsn" in reference to
> the wider definition: Tango de Salsn as a contrast to Stage Tango; the Tango
> which can be danced in crowded Milongas. (Sergio already refered to that.) But
> of course there are others, who would say: this is not Tango de Salsn, is it
> Tango Milonguero, or is it Tango Nuevo?
>
> So, why worry about definitions. Just dance. :-)))
>
> If you want to see the person who wrote this mail, here's my site:
>
> www.tangodesalon.de ;-)
>
> So far, it is only in german, but an english version will be coming soon. Under
> "bilder" you will find photos, under "film" a few videos of me and my partner
> dancing.
>
> Cheers to all,
>
> Melina, Germany
>


--
Wenger-Lehrmittel
Peter Wenger
Bl|tenhang 10
D-78333 Stockach
Tel. 07771 3914
Fax. 07771 3918
email:wenger@wenger-lehrmittel.de
home: www.wenger-lehrmittel.de




Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:12:03 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango styles

When it boils right down to it, if you love what you're doing, connecting with your partners, respectful of who's dancing around you, who cares what style of Tango your dancing or what music your dancing to. The important thing is what speaks to your soul. My electronic DJ idea complements the many styles of dancing, quite well...






Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:39:08 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango styles

>> Rick very well says :

>> "When it boils right down to it, if you love what you're

>>doing, connecting with your partners, respectful of who's dancing around
>>you, who cares what style of Tango your dancing or what music your dancing
>>to..."

> Sergio replies:
>This is quite true but certainly it is not the subject of our discussion.
>Let's see if we can concentrate in the subject we are dealing with. A
>problem not encountered but many people and only seen by some.

Sergio, look at the subject of your thread & the thread I'm on, they are different.
No worries mate, variety & diversity are wonderful, life things, look around you.
If we monitored what people were dancing to, on say a 100 channel electronic DJ,
you woud not see just 1 genre/channel of music...It would be all over the place.
Take care...
Rick









Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:58:42 +1000
From: Gary <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Tango styles

Rick said

> If we monitored what people were dancing to, on say a 100
> channel electronic DJ, you woud not see just 1 genre/channel of music...It
> would be all over the place.

It depends what people are seeking in dancing.

I suspect in some communities, many people get so much buzz from dancing
_with_ the other people on the floor, that gradually over the night, people
would switch channels until they all converged on the same one...

Those amazing times when I have the feeling of dancing with my partner, with
the music, with every other dancer on the floor - the whole place
crystallises into one hub of tango magic.

(Other times, I can't figure out what foot to move next ;^)

Gary





Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:24:54 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: styles

Brian Dunn wrote:
I would hope that my followers would remember me, not as a "milonguero guy"
or a "salon guy" but as someone who offered them a tanda of dances
containing both "milonguero"(staccato/rhythmic) AND
"salon"(smooth/flowing) musical qualities.


I was having a conversation the other day with milonguero Roberto Angel
Pujol. We were talking about the music of the milonga. I told him that a
new trend has started in the United States to hold tango dances with other
music and little traditional tango. He responded, they're all crazy. He
went on to say that the music in the milongas during his younger years (the
50s) was mostly instrumental recordings of Miguel Calo, Carlos Di Sarli,
Francini/Pontier, D'Agostino, Anibal Troilo. The music of Juan D'Arienzo
was popular in the province of BsAs but was never played downtown in the
milongas as it is today.


Pichi de Buenos Aires




Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 05:54:42 -0700
From: Jay Jenkins <jayjenkins888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles

I found the description of tango styles very interesting.
I would like to know how many people know the technique and are able to dance more than one style.

Does any instructor dance and teach different styles in the USA ?.

There are people not only dancing different styles but also amalgamating them, including the publication of tapes with such combinations as the example given by Sergio "Elina Roldan and Julio mendez which I have seen. This couple uses moves of Salon tango combined with Nuevo tango.

I am new to this list, I am almost afraid to open my mouth, I hope that my question does not offend anyone.

Jay









Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:38:58 +0200
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Hello Jay,
don4t be shy! ;-) Welcome (though I am also relatively new to the list).
I can only speak for myself, but I don4t consciously dance in "style a" or
"style b" - the way I dance is influenced by the embrace allowed by the
woman and by the music, among other things. My style is not clear-cut, it
has elements of what most people would call "milonguero", and some from
what is called "salon" on the list. How much I go into one direction or
the other stylewise differs from dance to dance, depending on many
factors. Sometimes I am content to just walk and shift weight,
minimalistic in the Gavito sense, other times I might go wild and do lots
of "figures" (though I know none, I combine single steps and elements,
except for a handful of sequences I can keep in my very weak memory),
albeit with use of minimal space (now this gets close to my own
definition of "salon" ;-) ). The way I walk also changes, mostly with the
music (flat, toes, heel, all of it).
I have the impression most dancers mix styles (if they haven4t learned
"milonguero", they have probably learned different salon substyles, simply
be being exposed to differernt teachers with their own methods).
Interesting to note in the styles discussion is the fact that Tete (one of
the main proponents of milonguero, yes?) calls his style "salon" (see also
on tejastango). Gavito, for example, is described on the Cosmotango/CITA
website as a main figure of the milonguero style, but look at his walk,
and at some of the figures he does and to me he doesn4t really fit the
descriptions of "milonguero" given on the list and elsewhere.
This is to say that there are probably few dancers who really fit one
category or another 100%.
As a final note, it seems the U.S. definition of salon (as opposed to what
I am used to here in Germany) describes a rather broad category of style,
while milonguero is much more narrowly defined.
Cheers,
Andreas

ugh - did I just help renew the dastardly styles discussion??? ;-P


> I found the description of tango styles very interesting.
> I would like to know how many people know the technique and are able to
> dance more than one style.
>
> Does any instructor dance and teach different styles in the USA ?.
>
> There are people not only dancing different styles but also
> amalgamating them, including the publication of tapes with such

combinations as the

> example given by Sergio "Elina Roldan and Julio mendez which I have

seen.

> This couple uses moves of Salon tango combined with Nuevo tango.
>
> I am new to this list, I am almost afraid to open my mouth, I hope that

my

> question does not offend anyone.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
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1 GB bereits bei GMX FreeMail http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail




Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:55:23 -0700
From: Julian Centella <tangotiger888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles

I have been following this subject with great interest. I made copies of the notes, arranged them as they were coming and read them more than once.

Sergio says that it is important not to confuse the beginner student by exposing him to different styles. I agree.

The alternative is to teach them only one style (preferable Salon, close and open embrace first) till they have some comfort dancing and then introduce other styles.
Other styles could be taught initially as well, as preferred.

The problem is that if nobody tells them that there are other forms to dance they are convinced that the way they do it is the only one, hence the absurd arguments, such as stating that you do not lead with arms and hands, the walk and technique differences,and many other things.

I wonder, during the teaching process, what moment would be the most convenient to introduce other styles. Is this necessary? Not always, only if there is a personal interest or necessity due to lack of room to dance, I imagine.

You may answer to me personally should you prefer not to send your note to the list.

I have thought of other reasons it is convenient to know about styles. For instance:

I was sick and tired of hearing that "milonguero" was the only style to dance socially.
It was repeated again and again that 'Salon' was for stage, that the Argentine instructors taught salon=stage for economical convenience, and that if you went to B.A you could only dance Milonguero.

I am sure that this erroneous belief is what prompted this discussion.

I go to milongas every week, if there is no much space (usually 2 square feet per couple) I dance salon close embrace (or milonguero if the lady follows well) , but my preference is Nuevo Tango, so after a while I head where Nuevo is danced. I can assure you that we dance socially and have no problems to follow the milonga's codes or to navigate the floor.

Your misconception, I think, I could be wrong, comes from the fact that you do not know how to navigate the floor properly when dancing an open style. You flock then to close style only, because that is the only way you can move without kicking everybody (no offense intended). If you wish to dance open learn how to use the space.
On top of that the "Milonguero" promoters will tell you that their style is the only way you can dance in Buenos Aires (who cares, if you are not coming to dance here?). This is true in some places and at certain hours but in fact you can dance any style you wish. I really like to dance in crowded places in close embrace for a while and Nuevo in open embrace as well .
Kind regards,







Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:18:35 -0600
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Hello Jay:
Well just as in life, none of us can totally get out of not offending
anyone. There will always be at least one person out there. So I really
would not worry about that at all. And simply welcome.

And yes I rase my hand as someone who teaches a mutitude of different
styles. What ever it takes to help the student find understanding for them
selves and plesure in the dance.

My Two cents.
David Hodgson


-----Original Message-----



Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 6:55 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango Styles


I found the description of tango styles very interesting.
I would like to know how many people know the technique and are able to
dance more than one style.

Does any instructor dance and teach different styles in the USA ?.

There are people not only dancing different styles but also amalgamating
them, including the publication of tapes with such combinations as the
example given by Sergio "Elina Roldan and Julio mendez which I have seen.
This couple uses moves of Salon tango combined with Nuevo tango.

I am new to this list, I am almost afraid to open my mouth, I hope that my
question does not offend anyone.

Jay









Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 02:53:49 +0200
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Hello Julian,

I don4t know if your post is in any way a reaction to my last one, but
anyway a few comments, sometimes I agree, sometimes not:

>
> Sergio says that it is important not to confuse the beginner student by
> exposing him to different styles. I agree.

Ok, but do tell him that what you teach is your personal interpretation,
and that there are other ways to do the same things, or other things you
can do using different methods.


> The alternative is to teach them only one style (preferable Salon, close
> and open embrace first) till they have some comfort dancing and then
> introduce other styles.
> Other styles could be taught initially as well, as preferred.

I would like to add that one should urge his/her students to take lessons
from other teachers as well. Not the beginners, maybe, but those who have
aquired solid basics.

>
> The problem is that if nobody tells them that there are other forms to
> dance they are convinced that the way they do it is the only one, hence

the

> absurd arguments, such as stating that you do not lead with arms and

hands,

> the walk and technique differences,and many other things.

See my comment above, agreed.

>
> I wonder, during the teaching process, what moment would be the most
> convenient to introduce other styles. Is this necessary? Not always,

only if

> there is a personal interest or necessity due to lack of room to dance,

I

> imagine.

After the basics are laid, I find it important to allow (better yet: urge)
the students to go out and find what is best for them. If they end up
dancing some style you don4t like, or if they stay with another teacher,
well that4s life.

>
> You may answer to me personally should you prefer not to send your note

to

> the list.

I think it may still be of interest to the list... or is this horse
finally dead? ;-)

>
> I have thought of other reasons it is convenient to know about styles.

For

> instance:
>
> I was sick and tired of hearing that "milonguero" was the only style to
> dance socially.
> It was repeated again and again that 'Salon' was for stage, that the
> Argentine instructors taught salon=stage for economical convenience, and

that if

> you went to B.A you could only dance Milonguero.

I don4t know if people have that belief. I believe, however, that some (!)
Argentinian instructors indeed select their material for economical
convenience - which is absolutely ok, they will teach what people want.
For example, (there have been quite a few heated discussions on that
particular subject on German mailing lists) when Todaro taught in Germany
during the reemergence of tango here in the 80s, people wanted the show
moves, so that4s what he mainly taught. Note I said "show moves", not
"salon". That4s an entirely different thing.
(Anyway, that phase has determined the way tango is danced in most places,
though things slowly change in some areas, and there is a wide mix of
styles now, and people sometimes learn to improvise, too)
Personally, I have no problem with people dancing whatever style they
want, as long as they dance with respect for the other dancers. That,
however, is often a problem with people who learn tango by memorizing
fixed sequences/figures. And the latter is often the case with what you
refer to as "salon" - though I don4t know if that is true of the US, for
example. It is here.
Maybe it is all much better in Buenos Aires, but I have heard people tell
me they got kicked quite a lot in some milongas there, too (I know it4s
sacrilege to say that...). And even if someone doesn4t actually hit other
dancers, by rushing into any available space that opens in the vicinity,
you can also diminish other dancers4 enjoyment, particularly of those who
pay attention to those around them. And the more space one needs for his
style, the more likely he is to act in such a way. In a perfect world,
that may be different, but in ours it is just what I see again and again.
And btw, the German tango scene still has quite a good reputation in
comparison with some others in Europe.

>
> I am sure that this erroneous belief is what prompted this discussion.
>
> I go to milongas every week, if there is no much space (usually 2

square

> feet per couple) I dance salon close embrace (or milonguero if the lady
> follows well) , but my preference is Nuevo Tango, so after a while I

head

> where Nuevo is danced. I can assure you that we dance socially and have

no

> problems to follow the milonga's codes or to navigate the floor.

If you can, nobody should have a problem with your dancing.

>
> Your misconception, I think, I could be wrong, comes from the fact that
> you do not know how to navigate the floor properly when dancing an open
> style. You flock then to close style only, because that is the only way

you can

> move without kicking everybody (no offense intended). If you wish to

dance

> open learn how to use the space.

Again I can only speak of myself, and now I am severely tempted to borrow
the "sick and tired" phrase you used above: There are indeed people who
can dance open embrace (I learned that before I discovered close embrace),
but who still prefer close embrace even if they are alone on the floor. It
may be simply because they like it more. I do. And if you are skilled
enough, you can do plenty of very complex moves, albeit with almost no
margin for error.
So please no misconceptions about people4s reasons for preferring close
embrace or milonguero.

> On top of that the "Milonguero" promoters will tell you that their style
> is the only way you can dance in Buenos Aires (who cares, if you are not
> coming to dance here?). This is true in some places and at certain hours

but

> in fact you can dance any style you wish. I really like to dance in

crowded

> places in close embrace for a while and Nuevo in open embrace as well .
> Kind regards,

Well, my trip to BsAs is already planned, and I will see for myself, but
on the other hand I have studied with quite a few Argentinian teachers
here, among them a few milongueros of varying styles, and I can say that
of the really interesting ones, no two dance alike. As it should be.

Greetings,
Andreas

--
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:56:37 -0700
From: Julian Centella <tangotiger888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles

Andreas with respect to the following:

"Maybe it is all much better in Buenos Aires, but I have heard people
tell
me they got kicked quite a lot in some milongas there, too (I know it4s
sacrilege to say that...). "

We are at the milongas every week, it would be extremely unusual that anybody ''touches" you as you dance, except for some foreign tourists. They obviously do not know how to navigate the floor and start bumping into everybody, then they leave the floor saying that "everybody kicks me". :)) Naturally from their perspective it must feel that way.
I certainly can cross the street the wrong way and then claim that I almost got run over by a car. What they should say is "I am not prepared to dance under these conditions, I get in the other dancer's way". "I have to learn how to dance here".

As to the other paragraph, I do not argue with the fact that people dance only close embrace because they liked it that way, it is there preference, this is fine. I never said that anybody 'Should" dance only open style, I could not care less what style somebody else prefers. What I said was that those that dance only close embrace are telling the rest of us that this is the only social way of dancing, to what I say: you are wrong.

I hope that this is clear now.









Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:39:35 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: styles

Derik Rawson wrote:
<...close embrace style became a "have to" in the crowded milongas in BA,
not necessarily a "want to". Later on it became a "want to".

The dance follows the music. The music of the 30s--Canaro, Lomuto,
Donato--created a style where the woman danced on the right side of the man.
Look at a photo of Cachafaz and Camencita for example. He was the show and
she went along for the ride.

The music changed in the 1940s . The music had a new rhythm. The dancing
changed as a result of it. The man started holding the woman in front of
him. The romantic element of tango began.

The downtown milongas and cabarets of the 1950s are where the young
milongueros went to dance from 4pm to 6am.

Most of the women in the milongas were prostitutes in those days. The
milongueros weren't shy about dancing close. They became experts at dancing
in a small space. Respect for others on the floor was the rule. No one
touched others while dancing. The milongas were at their height of
popularity during the 1950s.

Many milongueros married women they met in a milonga. Some continue to this
day to go to the milongas without their wives because they are married to
the milonga.


My source of information -- the milongueros.

Janis Kenyon





Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:52:37 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: styles

Dear Janis: Thank you for the history. The dance of
the prostitutes ...great. I like my partners to be my
equals. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
wrote:

> Derik Rawson wrote:
> <...close embrace style became a "have to" in the

crowded milongas in BA,

> not necessarily a "want to". Later on it became a

"want to".

>
> The dance follows the music. The music of the

30s--Canaro, Lomuto,

> Donato--created a style where the woman danced on

the right side of the man.

> Look at a photo of Cachafaz and Camencita for

example. He was the show and

> she went along for the ride.
>
> The music changed in the 1940s . The music had a

new rhythm. The dancing

> changed as a result of it. The man started holding

the woman in front of

> him. The romantic element of tango began.
>
> The downtown milongas and cabarets of the 1950s are

where the young

> milongueros went to dance from 4pm to 6am.
>
> Most of the women in the milongas were prostitutes

in those days. The

> milongueros weren't shy about dancing close. They

became experts at dancing

> in a small space. Respect for others on the floor

was the rule. No one

> touched others while dancing. The milongas were at

their height of

> popularity during the 1950s.
>
> Many milongueros married women they met in a

milonga. Some continue to this

> day to go to the milongas without their wives

because they are married to

> the milonga.
>
>
> My source of information -- the milongueros.
>
> Janis Kenyon
>
>

should be sent to
send the
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.

>









Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:04:05 +0200
From: cella <cella@TTNET.NET.TR>
Subject: Re: styles

You have to learn and respect the roots of the tango, if you do not, then
you are missing alot about authenticity . In America and Europe
that is why you cannot do the tango , you only dance it . your elite
approach damages the true feelings and the meaning of the tango because
you cannot see that you are equal to a prostitute , a taxi driver ,a
butcher on the dance floor. Before talking about equality, first study
something about humanity .
ela cigdem

----- Original Message -----



Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] styles


> Dear Janis: Thank you for the history. The dance of
> the prostitutes ...great. I like my partners to be my
> equals. Derik
> --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
> wrote:
>> Derik Rawson wrote:
>> <...close embrace style became a "have to" in the
> crowded milongas in BA,
>> not necessarily a "want to". Later on it became a
> "want to".
>>
>> The dance follows the music. The music of the
> 30s--Canaro, Lomuto,
>> Donato--created a style where the woman danced on
> the right side of the man.
>> Look at a photo of Cachafaz and Camencita for
> example. He was the show and
>> she went along for the ride.
>>
>> The music changed in the 1940s . The music had a
> new rhythm. The dancing
>> changed as a result of it. The man started holding
> the woman in front of
>> him. The romantic element of tango began.
>>
>> The downtown milongas and cabarets of the 1950s are
> where the young
>> milongueros went to dance from 4pm to 6am.
>>
>> Most of the women in the milongas were prostitutes
> in those days. The
>> milongueros weren't shy about dancing close. They
> became experts at dancing
>> in a small space. Respect for others on the floor
> was the rule. No one
>> touched others while dancing. The milongas were at
> their height of
>> popularity during the 1950s.
>>
>> Many milongueros married women they met in a
> milonga. Some continue to this
>> day to go to the milongas without their wives
> because they are married to
>> the milonga.
>>
>>
>> My source of information -- the milongueros.
>>
>> Janis Kenyon
>>
>>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:54:39 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: styles

Dear Cella: I love to dance close embrace, BUT not ALL
the time... Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <cella@TTNET.NET.TR> wrote:

> You have to learn and respect the roots of the

tango, if you do not, then

> you are missing alot about authenticity . In America

and Europe

> that is why you cannot do the tango , you only

dance it . your elite

> approach damages the true feelings and the meaning

of the tango because

> you cannot see that you are equal to a prostitute ,

a taxi driver ,a

> butcher on the dance floor. Before talking about

equality, first study

> something about humanity .
> ela cigdem
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Derik Rawson" <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 9:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] styles
>
>
> > Dear Janis: Thank you for the history. The dance

of

> > the prostitutes ...great. I like my partners to be

my

> > equals. Derik
> > --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

<jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>

> > wrote:
> >> Derik Rawson wrote:
> >> <...close embrace style became a "have to" in the
> > crowded milongas in BA,
> >> not necessarily a "want to". Later on it became

a

> > "want to".
> >>
> >> The dance follows the music. The music of the
> > 30s--Canaro, Lomuto,
> >> Donato--created a style where the woman danced on
> > the right side of the man.
> >> Look at a photo of Cachafaz and Camencita for
> > example. He was the show and
> >> she went along for the ride.
> >>
> >> The music changed in the 1940s . The music had a
> > new rhythm. The dancing
> >> changed as a result of it. The man started

holding

> > the woman in front of
> >> him. The romantic element of tango began.
> >>
> >> The downtown milongas and cabarets of the 1950s

are

> > where the young
> >> milongueros went to dance from 4pm to 6am.
> >>
> >> Most of the women in the milongas were

prostitutes

> > in those days. The
> >> milongueros weren't shy about dancing close.

They

> > became experts at dancing
> >> in a small space. Respect for others on the

floor

> > was the rule. No one
> >> touched others while dancing. The milongas were

at

> > their height of
> >> popularity during the 1950s.
> >>
> >> Many milongueros married women they met in a
> > milonga. Some continue to this
> >> day to go to the milongas without their wives
> > because they are married to
> >> the milonga.
> >>
> >>
> >> My source of information -- the milongueros.
> >>
> >> Janis Kenyon
> >>
> >>
> >

products

> > should be sent to

Tango-A,

> > send the
> > LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

search. Learn more.

> >
> >

products should be sent to
Tango-A, send the
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.

> >
> >
>
>

should be sent to
send the
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.

>
>









Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:34:34 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: styles

Dear Ela,

> You have to learn and respect the roots of the tango, if you
> do not, then you are missing alot about authenticity . In
> America and Europe that is why you cannot do the tango , you
> only dance it . your elite
> approach damages the true feelings and the meaning of the
> tango because
> you cannot see that you are equal to a prostitute , a taxi
> driver ,a butcher on the dance floor. Before talking about
> equality, first study something about humanity .

IMHO (and in my experience):

It is psychology: people who choose tango in "developed countries" see
certain values emanating from the dance which they miss (or at least don't
find in abundance) in their environment. Also, this is a way of defining
themselves.
In the "western world" everything is for sale, true privacy is rare,
expensive, and sex is all around (not necessarily prostitution: it is in the
movies, talk shows, hidden in advertisments etc.), so people try to find
(create...) a world where they have intimacy for each others sake, where
people count not their attire, where the feeling mean more than looks, where
intimacy is not provided in exchange for sex (or it's possibility) or they
just simply want to experience deep emotions without all the responsibility
(again: our life is a big responsibility in general - especially in the big
cities) and problems of a relationship (OK: this is more complex, I won't go
there). Add or take definitions - but you understand what I mean.

Of course it is cultural: here the "consumer society" lifestyle creates this
environment. The same thing exists for salsa, flamenco, belly dancing etc.
People see an edited version of the "image", they simply disregard what they
don't want to see.

NB: even some Argentines deny a large part of the tango heritage because
they find it too mundane or even derogatory!

Best wishes,
Aron ECSEDY
Budapest, Hungary





Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:15:06 +0200
From: cella <cella@TTNET.NET.TR>
Subject: Re: styles

Dear Derik,
Ignorance is Bliss .
BUT not ALL the time

----- Original Message -----



Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] styles


> Dear Cella: I love to dance close embrace, BUT not ALL
> the time... Derik
> --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <cella@TTNET.NET.TR> wrote:
>> You have to learn and respect the roots of the
> tango, if you do not, then
>> you are missing alot about authenticity . In America
> and Europe
>> that is why you cannot do the tango , you only
> dance it . your elite
>> approach damages the true feelings and the meaning
> of the tango because
>> you cannot see that you are equal to a prostitute ,
> a taxi driver ,a
>> butcher on the dance floor. Before talking about
> equality, first study
>> something about humanity .
>> ela cigdem
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Derik Rawson" <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
>> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 9:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] styles
>>
>>
>> > Dear Janis: Thank you for the history. The dance
> of
>> > the prostitutes ...great. I like my partners to be
> my
>> > equals. Derik
>> > --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
>> > wrote:
>> >> Derik Rawson wrote:
>> >> <...close embrace style became a "have to" in the
>> > crowded milongas in BA,
>> >> not necessarily a "want to". Later on it became
> a
>> > "want to".
>> >>
>> >> The dance follows the music. The music of the
>> > 30s--Canaro, Lomuto,
>> >> Donato--created a style where the woman danced on
>> > the right side of the man.
>> >> Look at a photo of Cachafaz and Camencita for
>> > example. He was the show and
>> >> she went along for the ride.
>> >>
>> >> The music changed in the 1940s . The music had a
>> > new rhythm. The dancing
>> >> changed as a result of it. The man started
> holding
>> > the woman in front of
>> >> him. The romantic element of tango began.
>> >>
>> >> The downtown milongas and cabarets of the 1950s
> are
>> > where the young
>> >> milongueros went to dance from 4pm to 6am.
>> >>
>> >> Most of the women in the milongas were
> prostitutes
>> > in those days. The
>> >> milongueros weren't shy about dancing close.
> They
>> > became experts at dancing
>> >> in a small space. Respect for others on the
> floor
>> > was the rule. No one
>> >> touched others while dancing. The milongas were
> at
>> > their height of
>> >> popularity during the 1950s.
>> >>
>> >> Many milongueros married women they met in a
>> > milonga. Some continue to this
>> >> day to go to the milongas without their wives
>> > because they are married to
>> >> the milonga.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> My source of information -- the milongueros.
>> >>
>> >> Janis Kenyon
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
> products
>> > should be sent to
> Tango-A,
>> > send the
>> > LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
> search. Learn more.
>> >
>> >
> products should be sent to
> Tango-A, send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:31:51 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: styles

Dear Cella:

The difference in dancing with a prostitute, versus a
butcher, is that someone is paying for the dance and
has ordered it from her or him. The same thing
vapplies to the activities afterwards. The prostitue
is a Stepford wife and is not in control of much of
anything. The services have to be performed according
to the order. This can be very sexy sometimes, but to
me purchasing a partner is not all that interesting.
I prefer a challenge. I also prefer to dance all the
styles, not just one. If you yourself only dance a
single style, then I would suggest that you might be
the elitist, not me. My opinion. Thank you.

Derik

--- cella <cella@TTNET.NET.TR> wrote:

> You have to learn and respect the roots of the
> tango, if you do not, then
> you are missing alot about authenticity . In America
> and Europe
> that is why you cannot do the tango , you only
> dance it . your elite
> approach damages the true feelings and the meaning
> of the tango because
> you cannot see that you are equal to a prostitute ,
> a taxi driver ,a
> butcher on the dance floor. Before talking about
> equality, first study
> something about humanity .
> ela cigdem
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Derik Rawson" <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 9:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] styles
>
>
> > Dear Janis: Thank you for the history. The dance
> of
> > the prostitutes ...great. I like my partners to be
> my
> > equals. Derik
> > --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
> > wrote:
> >> Derik Rawson wrote:
> >> <...close embrace style became a "have to" in the
> > crowded milongas in BA,
> >> not necessarily a "want to". Later on it became
> a
> > "want to".
> >>
> >> The dance follows the music. The music of the
> > 30s--Canaro, Lomuto,
> >> Donato--created a style where the woman danced on
> > the right side of the man.
> >> Look at a photo of Cachafaz and Camencita for
> > example. He was the show and
> >> she went along for the ride.
> >>
> >> The music changed in the 1940s . The music had a
> > new rhythm. The dancing
> >> changed as a result of it. The man started
> holding
> > the woman in front of
> >> him. The romantic element of tango began.
> >>
> >> The downtown milongas and cabarets of the 1950s
> are
> > where the young
> >> milongueros went to dance from 4pm to 6am.
> >>
> >> Most of the women in the milongas were
> prostitutes
> > in those days. The
> >> milongueros weren't shy about dancing close.
> They
> > became experts at dancing
> >> in a small space. Respect for others on the
> floor
> > was the rule. No one
> >> touched others while dancing. The milongas were
> at
> > their height of
> >> popularity during the 1950s.
> >>
> >> Many milongueros married women they met in a
> > milonga. Some continue to this
> >> day to go to the milongas without their wives
> > because they are married to
> >> the milonga.
> >>
> >>
> >> My source of information -- the milongueros.
> >>
> >> Janis Kenyon
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> products
> > should be sent to
> Tango-A,
> > send the
> > LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> >>
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> search. Learn more.
> >
> >
>
> products should be sent to
> Tango-A, send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> >
>
> >
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>









Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:11:08 +0000
From: herve michel <herve_michel1@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: styles

Denial cannot change the essence of tango. The dance(s); dancer(s);
Milonga(s) mixed their blood;sweat and tears into shall me say a 'dirty face
llittle soul/angel/spirit' that remains wherever and whever some truly
tango. Like life itself Tango is not forcibly 'pure' all the time perhaps
it's intent was never to be such. I think that same lost and gain of
identy; that same mixture of tenderness and 'sleaze'(yes goo sex and love
making-like that candian movie about Jesus making love to Marie Magdelene
and spittle dripping from their embrace) that the various 'dance(s)')that we
enguage in at time will generale.

Peace


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>From: Ecsedy Aron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
>Reply-To: Ecsedy Aron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] styles
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:34:34 +0100
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>
>Dear Ela,
>
> > You have to learn and respect the roots of the tango, if you
> > do not, then you are missing alot about authenticity . In
> > America and Europe that is why you cannot do the tango , you
> > only dance it . your elite
> > approach damages the true feelings and the meaning of the
> > tango because
> > you cannot see that you are equal to a prostitute , a taxi
> > driver ,a butcher on the dance floor. Before talking about
> > equality, first study something about humanity .
>
>IMHO (and in my experience):
>
>It is psychology: people who choose tango in "developed countries" see
>certain values emanating from the dance which they miss (or at least don't
>find in abundance) in their environment. Also, this is a way of defining
>themselves.
>In the "western world" everything is for sale, true privacy is rare,
>expensive, and sex is all around (not necessarily prostitution: it is in
>the
>movies, talk shows, hidden in advertisments etc.), so people try to find
>(create...) a world where they have intimacy for each others sake, where
>people count not their attire, where the feeling mean more than looks,
>where
>intimacy is not provided in exchange for sex (or it's possibility) or they
>just simply want to experience deep emotions without all the responsibility
>(again: our life is a big responsibility in general - especially in the big
>cities) and problems of a relationship (OK: this is more complex, I won't
>go
>there). Add or take definitions - but you understand what I mean.
>
>Of course it is cultural: here the "consumer society" lifestyle creates
>this
>environment. The same thing exists for salsa, flamenco, belly dancing etc.
>People see an edited version of the "image", they simply disregard what
>they
>don't want to see.
>
>NB: even some Argentines deny a large part of the tango heritage because
>they find it too mundane or even derogatory!
>
>Best wishes,
>Aron ECSEDY
>Budapest, Hungary
>





Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:25:57 +0100
From: Peter Turowski <tangopeter@GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: styles

>Peace

F***k you!


<0 )(((( ><<

sorry, no fullquote and feeding the troll as usual...





Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:58 +0200
From: cella <cella@TTNET.NET.TR>
Subject: Re: styles

Style is : something that you do the things your own way, style is
something personal, unique .It is your character , attitude , the way you
look and say the things, it is your self - expression , imagination ...
Style is : NOT open- close - semi close , this teacher , that teacher , do
this do that ...

May be help, may be not.

with all my patience and love ,
cella


----- Original Message -----



Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] styles


> Dear Cella:
>
> The difference in dancing with a prostitute, versus a
> butcher, is that someone is paying for the dance and
> has ordered it from her or him. The same thing
> vapplies to the activities afterwards. The prostitue
> is a Stepford wife and is not in control of much of
> anything. The services have to be performed according
> to the order. This can be very sexy sometimes, but to
> me purchasing a partner is not all that interesting.
> I prefer a challenge. I also prefer to dance all the
> styles, not just one. If you yourself only dance a
> single style, then I would suggest that you might be
> the elitist, not me. My opinion. Thank you.
>
> Derik
>
>





Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:05:21 +0100
From: Peter Turowski <tangopeter@GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: styles

>Style is : something that you do the things your own way, style is
>something personal, unique .It is your character , attitude , the way you
>look and say the things, it is your self - expression , imagination ...
>Style is : NOT open- close - semi close , this teacher , that teacher , do
>this do that ..

I love this definition - standing ovation...

>May be help, may be not.

It helps me when I ask myself again and again: "What is YOUR tango?"

Best regards
Peter





Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:44:24 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: styles

>The difference in dancing with a prostitute, versus a butcher, is that

someone is paying for the dance and has ordered it from her or him.
The same thing vapplies to the activities afterwards. The prostitue
is a Stepford wife and is not in control of much of
anything.<

Some interesting notes:

Luciana Acosta a.k.a "La Moreyra", (1880 - ?).
A famous prostitute in the tango world, who was much in control of
everything, and was most expert in the use of the knife.

Jorge Martin Orcaizaguirre a.k.a "Virulazo" (1926 - 1990)
One of the most famous tango dancers, he worked in many trades including in
the capacity of butcher. He turned down a request from Henry Kissinger for a
private tango performance.

Best regards,

Bruno





Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 00:03:27 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: styles

> NB: even some Argentines deny a large part of the tango heritage because
> they find it too mundane or even derogatory!

My friend F.'s Mom once came over from Buenos Aires to see for a few months
that her son would have some proper estofado for dinner, and when I visited
them and talked to her about tango, she said:"I don't know WHERE this dance
came from and I don't think, I want to know !" and turned away in a huff,
and continued her cooking in that cramped Japanese kitchen.. ; )

Astrid




Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 00:36:20 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Fw: [TANGO-L] styles

> Dear Cella:
>
> The difference in dancing with a prostitute, versus a
> butcher, is that someone is paying for the dance and
> has ordered it from her or him. The same thing
> vapplies to the activities afterwards. The prostitue
> is a Stepford wife and is not in control of much of
> anything. (snip) My opinion. Thank you.
>
> Derik

Dear Derik,

It seems that you: a) just cannot get over that movie, and b) have never
really visited a prostitute.
I have met a number of people who were in a huff over movies that portrayed
whores as people who were happy on occasion, not really as downtrodden and
miserable as all that, and just another human being. I have met a man who
hated "Pretty woman", because the girl was not miserable enough, and a woman
who hated "Ibrahim et les fleurs...", for the same reason.
That aside, I still, as I stated 5 years ago, wish we could go back to those
days where men had to buy tickets to get a chance to take a milonguera out
on the dance floor at all. Where men trained in secret and competed with
each other in order to impress those few women present, and raise their
chances with them.
Sorry the days we have reached now, where it is actually the other way
round: where women now compete with each other to impress the few guys
present, but are limited to their mediocre lead in the dance in spite of all
their training and where, I have been told, at one ballroom dance hall in
Tokyo, it is actually the ladies who have to buy tickets and give them to a
few gigolos to get their turn on the dance floor..
I, for one, would certainly prefer to go to a milonga, have the 300% or so
surplus of eager men line up to take turns to dance with the few of us, and
where I would, for a small fee, oblige them and have them take me out on the
floor as "una mina para variar". And make a small bundle, while I do.

Astrid




Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:51:28 -0800
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: [TANGO-L] styles

Hey all

I'm with Astrid on this one. Having always heard about those multitudes of men working so hard on their moves and competing so fiercely over the few women in the milongas (who were prostitutes), it had never occurred to me that these men would have to pay for a dance, to boot!

I'm probbly naive, but I sort of always assumed that the milongas were where those prostitutes would go hang out after a long day's work, to relax and kick back and finally have some FUN where THEY get to pick the very best dancer to dance a tango with. It sure beats needlepoint! Man, this beats going to dinner or the movies, rock climbing, golf, watching reality shows, going to a milonga with modern demographics.

It makes me wonder, if those "prostitutes" were in a position to make a living off the milongas, maybe at least some of them weren't actual prostitutes in the literal sense, but rather taxi dancers. This was a common practice in the dance halls of Europe even in my parents' and grandparents' generation. Of course that would not have kept the classes who get to write history to turn up their noses and call them prostitutes.

Tine

astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
Dear Derik,

It seems that you: a) just cannot get over that movie, and b) have never
really visited a prostitute.
I have met a number of people who were in a huff over movies that portrayed
whores as people who were happy on occasion, not really as downtrodden and
miserable as all that, and just another human being. I have met a man who
hated "Pretty woman", because the girl was not miserable enough, and a woman
who hated "Ibrahim et les fleurs...", for the same reason.
That aside, I still, as I stated 5 years ago, wish we could go back to those
days where men had to buy tickets to get a chance to take a milonguera out
on the dance floor at all. Where men trained in secret and competed with
each other in order to impress those few women present, and raise their
chances with them.
Sorry the days we have reached now, where it is actually the other way
round: where women now compete with each other to impress the few guys
present, but are limited to their mediocre lead in the dance in spite of all
their training and where, I have been told, at one ballroom dance hall in
Tokyo, it is actually the ladies who have to buy tickets and give them to a
few gigolos to get their turn on the dance floor..
I, for one, would certainly prefer to go to a milonga, have the 300% or so
surplus of eager men line up to take turns to dance with the few of us, and
where I would, for a small fee, oblige them and have them take me out on the
floor as "una mina para variar". And make a small bundle, while I do.

Astrid


************************
Tango Club at Yale

YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com

To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or visit our website.
To unsubscribe, send us an email, or if you're in a hurry, do it yourself by sending an email to YaleTangoClub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. If it doesn't work, just let us know. We're nice people and we really don't want to aggravate anybody. Thanks!






Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:13:01 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: [TANGO-L] styles

Dear Tine and Astrid:

I have been with prostitutes and they can be
wonderful, BUT the JOB can get in the way....lol. It
is kind of disconcerting when the madame or the pimp
knocks on the door and says, "Time is up", or when a
prostitute has to use a knife to get her money from
the customer as Bruno implies ...lol. Prostitutes can
be very independent people, but I would say that they
are more "independent business people" and control
freaks rather than great lovers, and the same probably
applies to their regular customers. They both cannot
seem to get it any other way than to use money and
control as the tool. Customers and the prostitutes
are just people who are for sale. Emotions do not
rule. Money rules. Rules rule. They are not high on
my list of the world's great lovers. I am sure there
are exceptions, but I have not met any yet. I have
been in the film business around the world for years,
so I have seen all this stuff first hand on a daily
basis...lol. It makes great reading, but in real
life, it is empty.

Derik
http://www.tangoworldwide.com


--- Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Hey all
>
> I'm with Astrid on this one. Having always heard
> about those multitudes of men working so hard on
> their moves and competing so fiercely over the few
> women in the milongas (who were prostitutes), it had
> never occurred to me that these men would have to
> pay for a dance, to boot!
>
> I'm probbly naive, but I sort of always assumed that
> the milongas were where those prostitutes would go
> hang out after a long day's work, to relax and kick
> back and finally have some FUN where THEY get to
> pick the very best dancer to dance a tango with. It
> sure beats needlepoint! Man, this beats going to
> dinner or the movies, rock climbing, golf, watching
> reality shows, going to a milonga with modern
> demographics.
>
> It makes me wonder, if those "prostitutes" were in a
> position to make a living off the milongas, maybe at
> least some of them weren't actual prostitutes in the
> literal sense, but rather taxi dancers. This was a
> common practice in the dance halls of Europe even in
> my parents' and grandparents' generation. Of course
> that would not have kept the classes who get to
> write history to turn up their noses and call them
> prostitutes.
>
> Tine
>
> astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> Dear Derik,
>
> It seems that you: a) just cannot get over that
> movie, and b) have never
> really visited a prostitute.
> I have met a number of people who were in a huff
> over movies that portrayed
> whores as people who were happy on occasion, not
> really as downtrodden and
> miserable as all that, and just another human being.
> I have met a man who
> hated "Pretty woman", because the girl was not
> miserable enough, and a woman
> who hated "Ibrahim et les fleurs...", for the same
> reason.
> That aside, I still, as I stated 5 years ago, wish
> we could go back to those
> days where men had to buy tickets to get a chance to
> take a milonguera out
> on the dance floor at all. Where men trained in
> secret and competed with
> each other in order to impress those few women
> present, and raise their
> chances with them.
> Sorry the days we have reached now, where it is
> actually the other way
> round: where women now compete with each other to
> impress the few guys
> present, but are limited to their mediocre lead in
> the dance in spite of all
> their training and where, I have been told, at one
> ballroom dance hall in
> Tokyo, it is actually the ladies who have to buy
> tickets and give them to a
> few gigolos to get their turn on the dance floor..
> I, for one, would certainly prefer to go to a
> milonga, have the 300% or so
> surplus of eager men line up to take turns to dance
> with the few of us, and
> where I would, for a small fee, oblige them and have
> them take me out on the
> floor as "una mina para variar". And make a small
> bundle, while I do.
>
> Astrid
>
>
> ************************
> Tango Club at Yale
>
> YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
>
> To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or
> visit our website.
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> less.
>


=====
Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
http://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France










Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:18:57 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: [TANGO-L] styles

Dear All:

I am going to let some other people talk for awhile.
Thanks to all for the great conversation. Also my
thanks to Mr. Merchant in Boston for doing all the
hard work to keep this list working. How was the
tango dance in Cambridge this last Wednesday night? I
do remember dancing in Boston all this last summer.
It was fun. The Boston Tango Cruise was especially
great. Have a great evening. Will just listen fow
awhile. Keep it all going. Tango is wonderful...lol.

Derik
http://www.tangoworldwide.com


=====
Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
http://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France










Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:51:32 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: styles

Derik Rawson wrote:

>I have been with prostitutes and they can be

wonderful, BUT the JOB can get in the way....lol. It
is kind of disconcerting when the madame or the pimp
knocks on the door and says, "Time is up", or when a
prostitute has to use a knife to get her money from
the customer as Bruno implies ...lol.<

Most likely Luciana may have used a knife to fend off men who had lost their
women in the sex trade. She was a high roller.

FYI, the movements (quebradas, gambetas, etc.) of the tango dance were/are
associated with the body movements of two men in a duel with knives. Not in
vain it is said that (Entre cortes y quebradas nacio el tango de mi flor).

Best regards,

Bruno




Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:20:48 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles

Bruno says:
"Not really, Tango is the son of the Milonga and therefore
the Milonga is the
Tango's mother. There is enough ammunition to prove this."

When I stated that Salon Style is the "mother or root" of the other tango
styles I was discussing "Tango Styles and sub styles" as they appear to be
danced in Buenos Aires today. Not the origen of tango.

It is very well known that Milonga, Habanera and Candombe are the roots of
tango. This are the roots of tango the same as Salon style is the root of
the other sub styles.

I have discussed this subject about Tango History in detail in this forum,
but this was many years ago, at a time when tango was a relative novelty to
most contributors to Tango-L.

When I say that Salon style is the "mother or root of the other styles" I do
not mean that it originated as it is danced today. It suffered a continuous
evolution to adapt to many factors such as
social acceptance, (as "Tanguera Alegra " mentions), to musical changes, to
the influence of certain dancers, etc.

I say that it is the mother root because you can find in it all the elements
that are present in the other styles or sub styles. The opposite is not
true. So when you talk about stage tango you will observe that the
choreographic elements used in this style are present in Salon but that they
are adapted to the stage, (The moves are exaggerated so that they can be
seen from the last seats of the theater, there is special attention to
showing a determined front to the public, or to use the stage in its
entirety, there will be development of jumps, dramatic moments the use of a
plot, etc.

When we discuss Milonguero style, we are concentrating in moves also present
in salon but that are specially adapted to dancing in very crowded spaces.

When you study "tango elegante" as danced by Orlando Paiva you will notice
that the Salon elements are used but with some modifications in order to
excel in elegance.
For example during the execution of molinetes, which traditionally require
that the woman steps cross front, open, cross back; he will remove the open
step transforming the molinete in only cross front or cross back achieving
more elegance.

El Pulpo Sbrez has a very peculiar sub style with flowing hooks and ochos
which requires that he leads every change of weight of the follower in a
fashion totally different from traditional salon in order to achieve the
results of his dancing style.

Nuevo tango uses moves present in salon as well.

Those styles and many others adapt their technique and choreography to
different circumstances such as the ones mentioned above.

Every person has his own style but there are some possible generalizations
when you see that many dancers share certain characteristics that make them
part of a group.

I entirely agree with the observations of El Turco and other visitors to
Buenos Aires. Those observations confirm what I have been trying to explain
for a long time which produced all sort of attacks from people due to
personal economical interests and from some other out of shear ignorance.

Finally some light is present at the end of the tunnel.

Tanguera Alegra please do not write personally to me, your note will be
discarded without being read.:)). I will be glad to answer any notes from
people that know something about tango. :))






Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:22:58 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

>Every person has his own style but there are some possible generalizations

when you see that many dancers share certain characteristics that make them
part of a group.<

The issue that has not been addressed is:

As long as people can not tell the difference between Tango danced in a
Salon as opposed to a style called Tango Salon, not personal styles, we will
continue having discussions.

Best regards,

Bruno





Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:51:16 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

>From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango Styles
>Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:20:48 +0000

>
>When you study "tango elegante" as danced by Orlando Paiva you will notice
>that the Salon elements are used but with some modifications in order to
>excel in elegance.
>For example during the execution of molinetes, which traditionally require
>that the woman steps cross front, open, cross back; he will remove the open
>step transforming the molinete in only cross front or cross back achieving
>more elegance.
>

Thanks Sergio for a good post (as usual). I only have one question about the
above statement. Hard as I try to visualize it, I cannot understand how to
do the molinete only crossing back or front without the open step.... Am I
missing something very obvious? Please explain this to me.
Oh yeah, I have seen O. Paiva dance and it's true that he does a very
elegant dance. I don't remember those giros though. Of course, I really
don't remember any specific step of move that he and his partner did. I do
remember them elegantly moving around the floor.

Thanks,

Manuel





Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:01:11 +0000
From: Russell Ranno <russellranno@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Styles

Huck Kennedy writes:

By only taking space in front of us instead
of anywhere the heck we see it, and just as important,
by conversely not failing to take up that space in
front of us reasonably quickly as it opens up, we
create an orderly pista with an atmosphere of unity,
predictability, and cooperation as opposed to
a chaotic free-for-all in which each man selfishly
tries to grab whatever he can get for himself.


Thank you, thank you, thank you! Well written, this is exactly the point.
It is great fun to do big movements sometimes, and most of us are capable of
them. But the milonga is a SOCIAL situation, one where mutual respect and
courteous behavior is expected. If you want to do large, dramatic, darting
figures then rent some studio space and go do them (I do). But they are not
appropriate for social dancing.

By the way, by refusing to participate (actively or passively), aware
followers could really help eliminate this kind of rude behavior in a hurry.

Russell





Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 18:21:17 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Tango Styles

Sergio Vandekier wrote:
<<Tom Stermitz tells us that in his opinion 95 % of the couples in Buenos
Aires dance : Milonguero Style" if this were so (here is my new question)
what is the reason the Secretary of Culture organized a Campeonato that
would ignore 95% of the dancers of the city ?>

They didn't ignor them. Tango milonguero is tango de salon. It is a social
style for the dance halls. If visitors go to dance in El Arranque, El Beso,
Salon Canning, and Milonga de los Consagrados, they are going to see 95% of
the couples dancing tango milonguero.

<The purpose of the question was to clarify this matter because many people
in the USA believe that "close embrace" and "Milonguero style" are one and
unique form of dancing and that Salon is only in open embrace with all sort
of embellishments . This is not true.>

Hallelujah!!!! Close embrace and tango milonguero are different in every
way from the embrace down to the feet. If you want close embrace, it's
easy to find a teacher. If you want tango milonguero, there are only a
handful of milongueros who teach.

Janis Kenyon




Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 02:20:40 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

>Hallelujah!!!! Close embrace and tango milonguero are different in every
>way from the embrace down to the feet. If you want close embrace, it's
>easy to find a teacher. If you want tango milonguero, there are only a
>handful of milongueros who teach.
>
>Janis Kenyon

OK Janis, I believe you. However, I would like you to explain if possible
what are the specific differences between "milonguero" style and "close
embrace". Is "milonguero" style the "apilado" style that Susana Miller and
Cach Dante teach? Is the difference one of position between partners? I've
been watching various styles of dancing tango for over a dacade now. I can
easily tell the difference between stage tango and social dance tango in
general (although in some cases the line is blurry). I've seen some older
people who dance very gracefully and with elegance and musicality l I've
also seen lots of dancers in BAires who some people call "milongueros". They
all have their own "style". There are some who dance a certain way and
others who dance somewhat differently.
I would love to see a film of the various styles properly and accurately
labeled.

Also, I've seen many of the most famous Argentine tango dancers and teachers
dance at milongas as well as in shows. I'd say that the vast majority are
excellent social dancers and can definitely navigate the floors in the
milongas even while they dance rather "interesting" steps. Another thing
I've noticed is that many of these dancers always dance with a very close
embrace except when they perform some of the more spectacular
choreographies. I don't understand why some people seem to be so critical of
these professional dancers. To my estimation they are very graceful, elegant
and very much with the music. I cannot think of a better place to be in a
milonga than between two of these couples. Anyway, what would the style they
use be called?

Thanks,

Manuel





Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:02:23 EDT
From: SunshineEvy@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

this is pichi de buenos aires




Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:46:05 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: styles

Michael says "I think you err, at least in my estimation, as regarding salon
versus milonguero."

"But, here in the US, salon has become to be known as
tango that alternates between open and closed, even within the same song.
And even whether in a V form or not, but those that dance in a v are
generally regarded as salon dancers, even close, or not."

Hi Michael,

Thank you so much for writing to me. This gives me the
opportunity to let you know how much I like the way, the form, the style in
which you write even when some times I disagree with the content of such
writings. I realize that they are product of sincere beliefs results of
instruction from self interested teachers.

It is possible that the understanding in the USA is as explained by you.

My notes to this list from the very beginning have been prompted by reading
a diversity of misconceptions and mythological beliefs .

Those notes had the double purpose of serving the truth (at least as I saw
it) and preserving some degree of unity of concept all over the world and in
Argentina as well.

At the beginning (to give an example) we had to contend with a total anarchy
of names as everyone was calling every move, every figure, and everything
else with a different name.
Lots of people thought that there were no names for anything and they had
started to invent their own terminology.
We finally achieved some degree of unity in that respect.

It seems to me that you are proposing that I should read things that are not
correct or true and let them be as something that is so understood in the
USA even if it does not correlate with either the truth or the meaning of
such a thing in Argentina.

I am not convinced that this attitude would achieve a lasting benefit, it
will probably create diversity of conceptions and eventually an anarchy of
names and concepts, so that we will be talking foreign languages to each
other again.

This problem was precisely what prompted me to write about tango styles, as
everyone ( and you in particular) was talking in a religious way about
'their' own tango as being the only real one.
There was total confusion about technique, embrace, choreography, purpose,
feeling, social, stage, etc.

Since people were ignorant about the existence of different styles they were
expressing their views thinking that all the other dancers were wrong.

We now know that there are different styles, each one with its own technique
and characteristics.

Finally to answer you proposition: Salon Style have several embraces or
forms: open, close and elastic. You can dance in Salon style always open,
you can dance Salon style * always* closed or in an elastic embrace varying
the separation from your partner as desired. Milonguero is always in closed
position.

Most people in Buenos Aires dance Salon in close embrace.

Respectfully, Sergio.



>From: "Michael Figart II" <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
>To: <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Subject: styles
>Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 03:17:17 -0500
>
>Hi Sergio,
>
>
>
>I think you err, at least in my estimation, as regarding salon versus
>milonguero.
>
>
>
>Please allow me to say here that I highly respect all your posts to this
>list. It's very cool to enjoy the opinions of one "close" to the
>situation!
>
>
>
>But, here in the US, salon has become to be known as tango that
>alternates between open and closed, even within the same song. And even
>whether in a "V" form or not, but those that dance in a "v" are
>generally regarded as "salon" dancers, even close, or not.
>
>
>
>This is very probably a product of Susana Miller, and Cacho, and their
>effect on people throughout the country, but it's happening, and it's an
>integral part of Argentine Tango here in the US separating the salon,
>and the milonguero.......
>
>
>
>So, you can expect this; Mlonguero and Apilado is chest to chest
>always.........
>
>
>
>Salon is alternating between close chest to chest or "v" or open .....
>
>
>
>This is just US stuff, and a little simplified.....
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>
>Michael from Texas
>
>
>
>Ps....you get too complicated talking about traditional salon close
>embrace, or whatever......
>





Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:59:17 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: styles

Hi Sergio,

As usual it's good to read your thoughts on tango. I wish there would be
more emphasis in the fact that you write from personal first hand experience
as a resident (a great deal of the time) in Argentina. Some folks might
think you are opining as so many others do which is based on lots of
indoctrination by very persuasive, charismatic characters acting for their
own self interest and a maybe couple of visits to Buenos Aires to a few
(carefully chosen by their mentor) milongas.

I just had the good fortune to see the documentary "Susana del Pial". It was
so nice and so heart warming to see and hear real people from Buenos Aires
who are habitual dancers at El pial. It's very interesting to hear how they
feel about tango, how they view it and dance it. If these folks are not the
real thing, then I don't know who could be..... They certainly do not speak
of tango whith narrow minded religiosity and they are much more accepting of
each other and of the realization that there are as many styles of dancing
tango as there are dancers. One of the best things about watching that film
was that it mirrors what I experienced in my trips to Buenos Aires. Of
course, it supports what you've written about tango in many occasions.

Good luck in all your efforts to propagate the truth and better
understanding among tango dancers everywhere.

With best regards,


Manuel

visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com



>From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Hi Michael,
>
> Thank you so much for writing to me. This gives me the
>opportunity to let you know how much I like the way, the form, the style in
>which you write even when some times I disagree with the content of such
>writings. I realize that they are product of sincere beliefs results of
>instruction from self interested teachers.
>
>My notes to this list from the very beginning have been prompted by reading
>a diversity of misconceptions and mythological beliefs .
>
>Those notes had the double purpose of serving the truth (at least as I saw
>it) and preserving some degree of unity of concept all over the world and
>in
>Argentina as well.




Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:42:27 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango styles

Chistopher says:

"Also, Susanna categorically stated during the St. Louis workshop
that milongueros of Buenos Aires don't exclusively use a chest
lead, that they do in fact use a hand lead as the situation (ie,
the woman's comfort) demands.

So, I'm confused. The idea of "milonguero style" seems increasingly
like a distinction without a difference to me. One could certainly
say that Susanna Miller teaches a highly distinctive style of salon
tango, and be correct.

All of this begs the question: what defines milonguero style tango? "

He makes reference to two elements: the lead as a distinctive element of a
style and as to its nature.
Further more he wonders if Miloguero is a form of Salon tango.

The way I think about styles is as follows: (this is my opinion, the way I
see it, others may have a different one)

Tango Argentino is like a river that is born in the mountains. It starts as
a torrent with a great amount of water and strength it runs proud and as it
reaches the plains it divides itself in a myriad of branches of different
size, some very well known to many of us and others only known to very few,
all those branches join together in one before it enters the sea.

So Argentine Tango is only one, it has as many styles as persons dance it.

It was traditionally learned by individuals, by observing and practicing
with a group of friends, this had to originate a tremendous number of
variations, it was improvised so your tango had to be different in many
ways to that of your friends.

Nowadays when people wish to learn tango they go to the neighborhood club.
If you are from Villa Urquiza, for instance (my case) you are going to go to
Club Sin Rumbo or Sunderland where the milongueros will teach you Salon
Style. If you saw Fabian or Susana dancing and you liked it then you may
want to go to their clubs to learn their style instead.

So your dancing form initially depends on where you learn to dance. This
original style will later be modified by your own personality and by the
places where you go dancing.

There are many styles, the ones that come to your attention are those that
are being taught by somebody. Somebody dances in some particular way and
wishes to create a school of followers. Those people such as Fabian Salas,
Chicho, Gustavo Naveira, Tete, Susana, Cacho Dante decided to dedicate great
part of their time to teach their style. There are others such as Orlando
Paiva from Rosario (the second or third largest city in Argentina) and his
son who teach "Tango Elegante", or El Pulpo Sbrez who teaches his style, or
Daniel Lapadula who teaches "Estilo del Centro" who also are creating a
school of followers. There are some that are trying to teach historical
forms of tango such as "Canyengue" or "Milonga Candombera". Other are
inventing other forms such as "Milonga Murguera" (Capuzzi).

It is interesting to notice that out of all those dancers/instructors that I
mentioned above none denies that what they teach is a style within
Traditional Salon Tango. Those are social forms of dancing Salon Tango. They
all (except Susana Miller) wished to use the term Salon to describe their
style. Susana is the only one that selected a different word such as
"Milonguero" a very confusing word because it means many things.

Then we have to remember that Argentine Tango is only one. It has as many
styles as there are tango dancers. Those styles are an integral part of the
mother root that is Salon Tango.
Salon Tango contains all of the styles but the styles are just a small part
of Salon.

The most important elements are character and identity. They are all forms
that can be recognized as Argentine Tango. They reflect the culture that
originated them. They are not foreign concoctions.
A style born dissociated from the maternal culture will degenerate into
something that cannot be recognized as Argentine Tango. It will become
something similar, better or worse but different.

As to the lead we can discus this in another note.

have a beautiful day, Sergio.





Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:02:33 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango styles

--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:

> It is interesting to notice that out of all those
> dancers/instructors that I
> mentioned above none denies that what they teach is
> a style within
> Traditional Salon Tango. Those are social forms of
> dancing Salon Tango. They
> all (except Susana Miller) wished to use the term
> Salon to describe their
> style. Susana is the only one that selected a
> different word such as
> "Milonguero" a very confusing word because it means
> many things.

Sergio, I like your river analogy.

Nice post, as usual, Alberto.

Too many times, words are used out of context.

It might be useful to explain why Susana used the term
"milonguero". She began learning tango in the
academies in the 80's. She told us that she was
famous for being one of the worse dancers there. So
she decided to just have fun instead. Started
learning from the milongueros.

Maria Cieri, widow of Rodolfo Cieri, told us that the
academies only started popping up in the 70's, after
the military government ended. The problem was that
tangueros now had to put groups of novice men and
women together. In earlier days, novices would learn
from experienced dancers (Maria learned from her
mother, Rodolfo from his father) in personal settings.
The predominant solution to public classes was the
8-count base.

When she was here, Maria taught the 8-count base in
our class for novices. However, she also told us that
neither she nor Rodolfo used it themselves or were
taught with that method. But when they were asked to
start teaching in the 80's, they adopted that
convention, just like other dancers who became
teachers. They also knew that it resulted patterned
dancers, but no one knew then how to teach actual
lead/follow in a groups. The teachers themselves had
been taught by friends and family.

Susana chose the term "milonguero" to differentiate
her style from what was being taught in the academies.
The name will probably stick until someone comes up
with a better name.

By the way, in the beginner's class we are teaching
now in which we are telling people to use a V-frame in
close...the boyfriend/girlfriend couples (university
students) are preferring buttons-to-buttons. Gee,
wonder why... ;-)

Trini




PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
http://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm






Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:26:58 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRY.COM.AU>
Subject: Tango Styles

Those of us who debate Tango styles might find the rules for the recent
"World Championships" instructive. I thought it was particularly
interesting that in one of the print sets of rules I received, Salon and
Ballroom were described as synonymous. In other words - social dancing salon = ballroom. It's not so complicated. :).
Fabio Robles and his partner Anna, from Melbourne, Australia, came 12th in
the Stage Tango category. Congratulations.

About the Competition (Criteria)

28. Salon Tango (Unrestricted Entry, Amateurs and Professionals): Once a
couple is formed, the partners shall not separate as long as the music is
playing. This means that they cannot break the embrace, which is considered
the tango dance position.

29. For the position to be considered correct, the partners must constantly
hold each other by means of the embrace. Even though during certain figures
this may be flexible, this should not continue throughout the entire piece.

30. All movements shall be performed within the space allowed by the
couple's embrace.

31. The Jury will give special relevance to the couple's musicality,
elegance and walking style.

32. Within these guidelines, participants may perform any figure commonly
used, including barridas, sacadas close to the floor, enrosques, etc.

33. Ganchos, leaps, trepadas (climbs) and any other typically stage tango
possibility is completely excluded.

34. Couples, as in a real dancehall, shall constantly move counterclockwise
and avoid remaining in the same place for over two musical measures.

35. No contestant may raise his/her legs above the knee line.

36. Stage Tango for Couples (Unrestricted Entry, Amateurs and
Professionals): Participants will be able to express their personal view on
the tango dance: they may resort to movements, figures and applications that
are not usually related to traditional tango.

37. Couples may break the embrace and use additional techniques derived from
other dance disciplines, as long as these are justified and performed for
the benefit of a particular rendition.

38. In reference to the previous clause, it should be pointed out that no
performances using a different dance technique to dance to tango music shall
be accepted.

39. The Jury will take into account the following criteria:
-Choreographic composition (creation or recreation)
-Preservation of tango essence
-Use of stage space
-Choreographic and postural techniques
-Body and space alignment
-Couple's synchronicity
-Choreographic effects
-Interpretation
-Musical accuracy (relaxation, music-dancer-style)
-Costumes and make-up





Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 13:17:37 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Tango styles

Sergio,

I am so glad that Canyengue became a recognizable word.

It seems to me you are talking not about styles of dance per se, but about
"marketed styles of dance", i.e. Brand Names which are used by
business-oriented teachers to promote their classes. Isn't it?

Igor Polk





Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:22:17 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango styles

Igor Polk wrote:

>Sergio,
>
>I am so glad that Canyengue became a recognizable word.
>
>It seems to me you are talking not about styles of dance per se, but about
>"marketed styles of dance", i.e. Brand Names which are used by
>business-oriented teachers to promote their classes. Isn't it?
>
>
>

Probably not. Canyengue as a distinct approach to tango has been
recognized as far back as the teens. It was a precursor to salon, and
a direct descendant of milonga. El Cachafaz was noted as both a
salon stylist and a canyengue dancer.

Some people say that the canyengue of today is a reconstruction
from some older dancer's childhood memories. I have to wonder
about that. Rodolfo Cieri learned in his childhood from his father
who was himself a student of a noted canyeguero, and Lampazo
would have had a similar background.

Christopher





Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 23:14:33 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles

Igor says: "It seems to me you are talking not about styles of dance per
se, but about
"marketed styles of dance", i.e. Brand Names which are used by
business-oriented teachers to promote their classes. Isn't it?"

Dear Igor:

In my opinion (others may not agree) each one of the tango styles exist as
such, in the sense of a particular manner or technique by which something is
done, created or performed.

If you think for a moment about how tango used to be learned: a few men
improvising and practicing steps among themselves , in fairly isolated
groups it is logical to think that there was an infinite way of dancing
tango. Since those men copied each other's steps some "forms" or "styles"
became more prevalent in certain clubs and eventually in certain
neighborhoods.

As tango needed instructors some dancers started to teach the particular for
that they danced.

Christopher described very well Canyengue as being an early form, as danced
by our grand parents.

The musical notation of the original tangos was like that of the milonga 2/2
, giving a more vivacious rhythm than that provided to the modern tangos
written in 4/4 notation.

Tangos like "El esquinazo", "El Portenito" "El Entreriano" are frequently
confused as being milongas by the beginner dancer.

In the 40s. as the music changed, so did the dance form: the posture became
more erect, the bodies separated somewhat due to social requirements, the
slower tempo allowed longer steps and more complex figures. This separation
of the bodies allowed room for this more complex choreography as well.
"Tango Salon" in all its forms developed and replaced Canyengue.

It was called "Salon" meaning the type danced socially in the salons in
opposition to that danced on stage. From this point on we distinguished
Salon in all its social forms and Stage.

Clubs where embellishments were forbidden people danced "Tango Liso", other
clubs allowed all sort of "firuletes", boleos, amagues, ganchos, enrosques,
barridas, sentadas, etc.
A style loaded with such moves is today called "tango fantasia", a form
fairly close to "Stage tango".

In the meantime Salon, along with the open embrace, preserved its form with
a close embrace, used today by most dancers as their preferred style or used
out of necessity in crowded milongas.

More recently a small group of men (Gustavo Naveira, Fabian Salas, Chicho
Frumboli, and others) got together to practice and improvise as in the old
times exploring all the choreographic possibilities of the tango structure;
out of this exploration "Nuevo tango" as a style was originated.

The stage dancers traveling all over the world in the early 90es., taught
"Salon Style", mostly in open embrace in what is called today "Tango
fantasia". This style is attractive, complex and difficult to master.

Then Tango dancers from all over started to go to Buenos Aires to discover
that the Portenos danced in a different form in close embrace ("Salon close
embrace"). They started to learn this "other style". Some instructors
such as Tete, Cacho Dante and Susana Miller started to travel abroad
teaching this last form.

The original name would have been "Salon close embrace" but Susana decided
to use the name "Tango Milonguero", this denomination was accepted both in
Buenos Aires and abroad with lots of confusion as "milonguero" means many
things.

There was a terrible confusion abroad as people were learning to dance
"Argentine Tango" ignoring that there were different styles, they were
arguing to no end about every possible aspect of their dance as each one of
them, in their corner, thought he was dancing the "real tango" and the
others were dancing something else.

Faced with this problem I decided to clarify the matter of the different
styles. It took several years and numerous notes to this list and many
newsletters and magazines, to make people understand this easy fact.

Perhaps I did not know how to make this easy to be understood, perhaps
because everyone felt threatened in one way or another.
Some thought that their style could be perceived as being inferior to that
of others, or that they were not taught real tango, some instructors
thought that they were going to lose all their students, all of them
together refused to accept that tango could be danced in many different
ways, they vented their frustration on the me. the messenger with the bad
news.:))

All that seems to be in the past now.:)) :)) :))

Summary; We need to know the names of the different tango styles, to
announce events, congresses, workshops, so that the student may attend the
event of his preference knowing that tango has many faces, somewhat
different but always maintaining the same character.

Eventually you can dance the way you want.

Best regards, Sergio






Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 13:52:48 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

I agree a lot with Sergio, though I would add that the
character of tango remains in each of the styles when
they are done well. It can be hard to see tango when
the styles are done poorly.

My exploration of the three main social styles of
tango (salon, milonguero, nuevo) and even a little of
fantasia has, in part, been an effort to figure out
how to make tango easier to teach. Each style has
particular strengths and weaknesses.

Recently, we have begun to teach nuevo to our
intermediate/advanced students, which has been going
well. However, were wondering how much of nuevo to
incorporate into our beginning/intermediate classes.
Teaching a more nuevo style of boleo proved a little
too much for them to handle (too much energy and too
little body control, I think).

How do other people handle it?

Also, my observation is that those who pooh-pooh
styles other than their own are simply inexperienced
in the other styles. Perhaps I should say, they
simply do not learn enough to fully appreciate the
other styles, each of which produces a different
physical sensitivity.

Trini de Pittsburgh



PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
http://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm






Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 15:54:29 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Dear Trini:

"Also, my observation is that those who pooh-pooh
styles other than their own are simply inexperienced
in the other styles. Perhaps I should say, they
simply do not learn enough to fully appreciate the
other styles, each of which produces a different
physical sensitivity."

I agree with you completely, but I would still point
out that the nuevo system seems to cover ALL styles,
which is something that the other so-called styles do
not do. So, the question then becomes, is nuevo a
style or a system? I would say that it is a system for
all styles (and a system to enter newer ideas as
well), so it basically allows the dancer to do all
styles, which is what you are saying, right?

PS- If your students are having trouble with boleros,
maybe just have them contain them more (less
centrifugal force using the pelican), so they will be
doing something in nuevo which is a close embrace
move. In the nuevo system everything is the same and
one can instantly choose the size of a move as one
dances. The choice is just a question of degree.
There really is no need to change to a so-called
different style to do anything. All styles are
included. You do not have to make huge moves in
nuevo. Small moves work equally well, right?

Derik


--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:

> I agree a lot with Sergio, though I would add that
> the
> character of tango remains in each of the styles
> when
> they are done well. It can be hard to see tango
> when
> the styles are done poorly.
>
> My exploration of the three main social styles of
> tango (salon, milonguero, nuevo) and even a little
> of
> fantasia has, in part, been an effort to figure out
> how to make tango easier to teach. Each style has
> particular strengths and weaknesses.
>
> Recently, we have begun to teach nuevo to our
> intermediate/advanced students, which has been going
> well. However, were wondering how much of nuevo to
> incorporate into our beginning/intermediate classes.
> Teaching a more nuevo style of boleo proved a little
> too much for them to handle (too much energy and too
> little body control, I think).
>
> How do other people handle it?
>
> Also, my observation is that those who pooh-pooh
> styles other than their own are simply inexperienced
> in the other styles. Perhaps I should say, they
> simply do not learn enough to fully appreciate the
> other styles, each of which produces a different
> physical sensitivity.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> http://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
> protection around
>
>






Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:43:48 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

People learn linear motions easiest, and circular motions much
slower. This makes sense if you consider how little we spiral and
pivot in our normal, walk-a-day world.

Nuevo Techniques (to me) involve a lot of pivoting and spiraling
motions, which are best introduced later on in the learning process.
I prefer it to be MUCH later on, after people have balance, lead-
follow; after they already know what tango looks and feels like;
after they can pretty much ALREADY dance tango.


LINEAR BEFORE CIRCULAR

There are a lot of linear ideas for beginners: rhythms, lead-follow,
musical phrasing, connection, embrace, clean steps, heels down
(straight legs). In fact, a beginner guy can learn enough in one hour
to walk a lovely beginner lady around the room that same day. It is a
whole lot easier to learn to TANGO (a simple tango) than it is to
learn the VOCABULARY OF TANGO.


NEGATIVE TECHNIQUE

I'm sure you have seen the poor beginner ladies being cranked off
balance by intermediates trying to thrash them through ochos. If they
don't quit, they are embodying bad habits which will take twice as
long to remove. Some teachers even show ochos in the first classes,
before students can hear the beat, before they can stand upright. And
then those same bad Intermediates insist on teaching the grapevine to
every new lady that walks in the door.

A sensible learning methodology would ensure skills build in a
logical sequence:
(1) Stepping on the beat (walking), concepts of the social dance
floor, and Balance
(2) Hearing the musical phrase, initiating/receiving movement, lead-
follow and Balance
(3) Spiraling, no-pivot ochos (close-embrace) and Balance
(4) Spiraling while pivoting (turning ochos or open embrace ochos)
and Balance
(5) Turns still take a lot of practice, but... at least there is a
technical foundation for turns.


SLOWING DOWN THE LEARNING PROCESS

I think many teachers are excited about teaching cool moves, and fail
to provide a good foundation for LATER learning cool moves.

Teaching out of order doesn't speed up the learning process. To the
contrary, it slows people down because they pick up bad habits which
take twice as long to correct. At the worst end, you create a
conception of tango as "A BUNCH of COOL MOVES", rather than cool
moves are "SIMPLY THINGS TO DO WHILE DANCING TANGO".

I see a lot of intermediates with tons of vocabulary but ZERO
musicality and NEGATIVE technique. The poor women who crouch while
walking backwards, or on the other extreme look like they have a
stick stuck where the sun doesn't shine; the poor guys walking around
with a hunch, or cranking with their arms. These bad habits sometimes
infect whole communities.... or if we are a little more lucky, only
the segment of the community tied to certain teachers.




On Apr 6, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

> Recently, we have begun to teach nuevo to our
> intermediate/advanced students, which has been going
> well. However, were wondering how much of nuevo to
> incorporate into our beginning/intermediate classes.
> Teaching a more nuevo style of boleo proved a little
> too much for them to handle (too much energy and too
> little body control, I think).
> ...
> Trini de Pittsburgh




Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 20:02:04 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Tom,

Amen!
Right on!
Way to go!

You've hit a number of nails on the head
with just one stroke (strike) of your pen (hammer).

I feel sad for the women when I see intermediates or
self-described advanced dancers "leading" women
in fancy moves, without consideration for
connection
the beat of the music
the phrasing of the music
what the woman is or is not capable of
others on the floor
They are certainly not showing an appreciation nor an
understanding of the music, nor of the social scene,
nor are they showing any consideration to the lady who
consented to put her trust in his hands for the duration
of a tanda.


Tom wrote:

<many good comments, but I select these for my own emphasis>

> There are a lot of linear ideas for beginners: rhythms, lead-follow,
> musical phrasing, connection, embrace, clean steps, heels down
> (straight legs). In fact, a beginner guy can learn enough in one hour
> to walk a lovely beginner lady around the room that same day.

Amen!
She will feel taken care of.
Both will be dancing.


> A sensible learning methodology would ensure skills build in a
> logical sequence:
> (1) Stepping on the beat (walking), concepts of the social dance
> floor, and Balance
> (2) Hearing the musical phrase, initiating/receiving movement, lead-
> follow and Balance

Amen!
These are topics enough for a few years.
Like five
or ten
or fifteen.
And when these are learnt well,
one should be able to learn figures by merely watching and trying.


> intermediates trying to thrash them through ochos.

May I add . . .
volcadas
colgadas
weirdadas
freakyadas
whatwasthatadas
and
oopsadas


On the other hand, it's very sweet and beautiful to watch when
there are beginners who are dancing slowly, carefully, respectfully,
with smiles on their faces.


Now folks, don't get me wrong. Even that so-called "nuevo"
stuff is pretty neat to watch when it's done well.

It's just that there's only a snowball's chance in Death Valley
of it being done well
if the fundamentals were skipped over and butchered.


DJ Dave de Denver




Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 19:50:17 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Dear Tom and Dave:

You guys both sound like self appointed English
professors criticizing the grammar of people who are
trying to enjoy themselves at a cocktail party. I
think that you are both missing the point of Argentine
tango. It is a social evening first, and a dance
second. Content is king, not grammar.

PS - Tango is pivots, followed by linear steps.

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com


--- Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
wrote:

> Tom,
>
> Amen!
> Right on!
> Way to go!
>
> You've hit a number of nails on the head
> with just one stroke (strike) of your pen (hammer).
>
> I feel sad for the women when I see intermediates or
> self-described advanced dancers "leading" women
> in fancy moves, without consideration for
> connection
> the beat of the music
> the phrasing of the music
> what the woman is or is not capable of
> others on the floor
> They are certainly not showing an appreciation nor
> an
> understanding of the music, nor of the social scene,
> nor are they showing any consideration to the lady
> who
> consented to put her trust in his hands for the
> duration
> of a tanda.
>
>
> Tom wrote:
>
> <many good comments, but I select these for my own
> emphasis>
>
> > There are a lot of linear ideas for beginners:
> rhythms, lead-follow,
> > musical phrasing, connection, embrace, clean
> steps, heels down
> > (straight legs). In fact, a beginner guy can learn
> enough in one hour
> > to walk a lovely beginner lady around the room
> that same day.
>
> Amen!
> She will feel taken care of.
> Both will be dancing.
>
>
> > A sensible learning methodology would ensure
> skills build in a
> > logical sequence:
> > (1) Stepping on the beat (walking), concepts of
> the social dance
> > floor, and Balance
> > (2) Hearing the musical phrase,
> initiating/receiving movement, lead-
> > follow and Balance
>
> Amen!
> These are topics enough for a few years.
> Like five
> or ten
> or fifteen.
> And when these are learnt well,
> one should be able to learn figures by merely
> watching and trying.
>
>
> > intermediates trying to thrash them through ochos.
>
> May I add . . .
> volcadas
> colgadas
> weirdadas
> freakyadas
> whatwasthatadas
> and
> oopsadas
>
>
> On the other hand, it's very sweet and beautiful to
> watch when
> there are beginners who are dancing slowly,
> carefully, respectfully,
> with smiles on their faces.
>
>
> Now folks, don't get me wrong. Even that so-called
> "nuevo"
> stuff is pretty neat to watch when it's done well.
>
> It's just that there's only a snowball's chance in
> Death Valley
> of it being done well
> if the fundamentals were skipped over and butchered.
>
>
> DJ Dave de Denver
>
>






Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 20:21:50 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Thank you, Tom for such a thoughful post. If others
have similar or different thoughts, please share them.


--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
... I would still point out that the nuevo system
seems to cover ALL styles,...So, the question then
becomes, is nuevo a style or a system? I would say
that it is a system for all styles (and a system to
enter newer ideas as well), so it basically allows the
dancer to do all styles, which is what you are saying,
right?...


No, Derik. Nuevo appears to use the main aspects of
all of the different styles and more. But it seems to
favor off-axis movements and more energy. It produces
a different way of moving and relating to people. I
think this puts it in a style category rather than a
system.

The system of the three steps (front, back, side)
combined in a multitude of ways has been there since
the invention of cross-system. Same with the range of
connection (leaning forward, on-axis, and leaning
back). I think that what nuevo instructors did was to
develop a language to analyze what was already there
and express it to the masses. The new language helped
develop the style beyond traditional tango.

But we cannot forget about the artistic side of tango
and the connection between mind and body. And the
emotional effect of the music. And the mindset
different styles need. For example, without trusting
ones partner completely both physically and
emotionally, there is no milonguero, as far as I am
concerned. Without a sense of freedom, there is no
nuevo. Without a sense of elegance, there is no
salon.

I find it unfortunate when dancers decide to study/not
study a style, they only look at the external factors
(embrace, posture, vocabulary) and not the internal,
emotional factors. But then again, perhaps they
choose the style based on the degree of emotions they
are willing to share and point toward external factors
as the reason.

And, Derik, I do not see why you are upset with Tom
and Dave. As someone who has been on the other end of
many fantasia wannabes, it feels terrible to be
treated like a trick pony. That is all Tom and Dave
were pointing out. Surely you are not saying that a
woman should allow herself to be brutalized?

Trini de Pittsburgh


PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
http://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm






Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 22:48:02 -0500
From: Ron Weigel <tango.society@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

On 4/6/06, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:

> People learn linear motions easiest, and circular motions much
> slower. This makes sense if you consider how little we spiral and
> pivot in our normal, walk-a-day world.

> LINEAR BEFORE CIRCULAR
>
> There are a lot of linear ideas for beginners: rhythms, lead-follow,
> musical phrasing, connection, embrace, clean steps, heels down
> (straight legs). In fact, a beginner guy can learn enough in one hour
> to walk a lovely beginner lady around the room that same day. It is a
> whole lot easier to learn to TANGO (a simple tango) than it is to
> learn the VOCABULARY OF TANGO.


Yes, it is. However, if a tango community has a large proportion of
dancers who perform eye-catching without technique, the beginners
won't recognize the bad technique and even though they are doing some
basic walking with musicality andn good navigation reasonably well,
they may feel teh other dancers are so much better and want to emulate
them. This is a challenge for an instructor - to keep beginners
focused on fundamentals.


>
> NEGATIVE TECHNIQUE
>
> I'm sure you have seen the poor beginner ladies being cranked off
> balance by intermediates trying to thrash them through ochos. If they
> don't quit, they are embodying bad habits which will take twice as
> long to remove. Some teachers even show ochos in the first classes,
> before students can hear the beat, before they can stand upright. And
> then those same bad Intermediates insist on teaching the grapevine to
> every new lady that walks in the door.


Again, this is a consequence of community standards. The flashy
dancers are admired. Very few have the trained eye (or the trained
feel, when dancing with them) to realize that all that glitters is not
gold.

The blame for this can be placed directly on community organizers and
instructors. If you invite stage performers to town to teach sacadas,
boleos, etc. within complex figures to dancers who need to learn the
fundamentals of posture, connection, musicality, and basic
navigational skills, and then local instructors teach more of the
same, you're only going to build a community based on flash and not on
substance. Then there will be the obvious chaotic showmanship on the
dance floor, with the majority of dancers paying no attention to the
music, and little attention to the dancers around them. Unfortunately
this is a common scene at milongas outside Buenos Aires.


> A sensible learning methodology would ensure skills build in a
> logical sequence:
> (1) Stepping on the beat (walking), concepts of the social dance
> floor, and Balance
> (2) Hearing the musical phrase, initiating/receiving movement, lead-
> follow and Balance
> (3) Spiraling, no-pivot ochos (close-embrace) and Balance
> (4) Spiraling while pivoting (turning ochos or open embrace ochos)
> and Balance
> (5) Turns still take a lot of practice, but... at least there is a
> technical foundation for turns.


I could not agree more. It's up to local instructors and organizers to
carry this out. Otherwise, our milongas will continue to look like the
Keystone Cops.

Ron




Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 01:53:34 -0400
From: Richard deSousa <mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Derik:

Tango is a conversation between two people... if the grammar sucks there is no conversation.

El Bandito de Tango




-----Original Message-----



Sent: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 19:50:17 -0700
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Styles


Dear Tom and Dave:

You guys both sound like self appointed English
professors criticizing the grammar of people who are
trying to enjoy themselves at a cocktail party. I
think that you are both missing the point of Argentine
tango. It is a social evening first, and a dance
second. Content is king, not grammar.

PS - Tango is pivots, followed by linear steps.

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com


--- Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
wrote:

> Tom,
>
> Amen!
> Right on!
> Way to go!
>
> You've hit a number of nails on the head
> with just one stroke (strike) of your pen (hammer).
>
> I feel sad for the women when I see intermediates or
> self-described advanced dancers "leading" women
> in fancy moves, without consideration for
> connection
> the beat of the music
> the phrasing of the music
> what the woman is or is not capable of
> others on the floor
> They are certainly not showing an appreciation nor
> an
> understanding of the music, nor of the social scene,
> nor are they showing any consideration to the lady
> who
> consented to put her trust in his hands for the
> duration
> of a tanda.
>
>
> Tom wrote:
>
> <many good comments, but I select these for my own
> emphasis>
>
> > There are a lot of linear ideas for beginners:
> rhythms, lead-follow,
> > musical phrasing, connection, embrace, clean
> steps, heels down
> > (straight legs). In fact, a beginner guy can learn
> enough in one hour
> > to walk a lovely beginner lady around the room
> that same day.
>
> Amen!
> She will feel taken care of.
> Both will be dancing.
>
>
> > A sensible learning methodology would ensure
> skills build in a
> > logical sequence:
> > (1) Stepping on the beat (walking), concepts of
> the social dance
> > floor, and Balance
> > (2) Hearing the musical phrase,
> initiating/receiving movement, lead-
> > follow and Balance
>
> Amen!
> These are topics enough for a few years.
> Like five
> or ten
> or fifteen.
> And when these are learnt well,
> one should be able to learn figures by merely
> watching and trying.
>
>
> > intermediates trying to thrash them through ochos.
>
> May I add . . .
> volcadas
> colgadas
> weirdadas
> freakyadas
> whatwasthatadas
> and
> oopsadas
>
>
> On the other hand, it's very sweet and beautiful to
> watch when
> there are beginners who are dancing slowly,
> carefully, respectfully,
> with smiles on their faces.
>
>
> Now folks, don't get me wrong. Even that so-called
> "nuevo"
> stuff is pretty neat to watch when it's done well.
>
> It's just that there's only a snowball's chance in
> Death Valley
> of it being done well
> if the fundamentals were skipped over and butchered.
>
>
> DJ Dave de Denver
>
>






Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 05:58:05 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Dear Richard:

Content is more important than proper grammar. When
people speak different languages at a oocktail party,
they may have to use sign language to communicate, but
they will still find a way to communicate if the ideas
are interesting.

If there is no content there is no conversation. A
good conversation continues whether grammar is good or
bad.

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com


--- mallpasso@aol.com wrote:

> Derik:
>
> Tango is a conversation between two people... if the
> grammar sucks there is no conversation.
>
> El Bandito de Tango
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Sent: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 19:50:17 -0700
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Styles
>
>
> Dear Tom and Dave:
>
> You guys both sound like self appointed English
> professors criticizing the grammar of people who are
> trying to enjoy themselves at a cocktail party. I
> think that you are both missing the point of
> Argentine
> tango. It is a social evening first, and a dance
> second. Content is king, not grammar.
>
> PS - Tango is pivots, followed by linear steps.
>
> Derik
> d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>
> --- Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > Amen!
> > Right on!
> > Way to go!
> >
> > You've hit a number of nails on the head
> > with just one stroke (strike) of your pen
> (hammer).
> >
> > I feel sad for the women when I see intermediates
> or
> > self-described advanced dancers "leading" women
> > in fancy moves, without consideration for
> > connection
> > the beat of the music
> > the phrasing of the music
> > what the woman is or is not capable of
> > others on the floor
> > They are certainly not showing an appreciation nor
> > an
> > understanding of the music, nor of the social
> scene,
> > nor are they showing any consideration to the lady
> > who
> > consented to put her trust in his hands for the
> > duration
> > of a tanda.
> >
> >
> > Tom wrote:
> >
> > <many good comments, but I select these for my own
> > emphasis>
> >
> > > There are a lot of linear ideas for beginners:
> > rhythms, lead-follow,
> > > musical phrasing, connection, embrace, clean
> > steps, heels down
> > > (straight legs). In fact, a beginner guy can
> learn
> > enough in one hour
> > > to walk a lovely beginner lady around the room
> > that same day.
> >
> > Amen!
> > She will feel taken care of.
> > Both will be dancing.
> >
> >
> > > A sensible learning methodology would ensure
> > skills build in a
> > > logical sequence:
> > > (1) Stepping on the beat (walking), concepts
> of
> > the social dance
> > > floor, and Balance
> > > (2) Hearing the musical phrase,
> > initiating/receiving movement, lead-
> > > follow and Balance
> >
> > Amen!
> > These are topics enough for a few years.
> > Like five
> > or ten
> > or fifteen.
> > And when these are learnt well,
> > one should be able to learn figures by merely
> > watching and trying.
> >
> >
> > > intermediates trying to thrash them through
> ochos.
> >
> > May I add . . .
> > volcadas
> > colgadas
> > weirdadas
> > freakyadas
> > whatwasthatadas
> > and
> > oopsadas
> >
> >
> > On the other hand, it's very sweet and beautiful
> to
> > watch when
> > there are beginners who are dancing slowly,
> > carefully, respectfully,
> > with smiles on their faces.
> >
> >
> > Now folks, don't get me wrong. Even that
> so-called
> > "nuevo"
> > stuff is pretty neat to watch when it's done well.
> >
> > It's just that there's only a snowball's chance in
> > Death Valley
> > of it being done well
> > if the fundamentals were skipped over and
> butchered.
> >
> >
> > DJ Dave de Denver
> >
> >
>
>
> protection around
>






Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:10:44 +0100
From: Dani Iannarelli <dani@TANGO-LA-DOLCE-VITA.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

How, for God's sake, can you convey content properly, lucidly, with clarity, efficiently and understanding without the use of proper grammar?

I think they might be just about to drop the net on you... you know, those smiling people with the white coats and hairy muscular arms.

eg. Convey how proper and God's lucidly of content you clarity without, use with, can how grammar, for.

I think you should go back to school...

"Many people talk a good fight"... in tango: "many people ungrammatically talk a good tango"... but can they dance a good tango?

Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
Dear Richard:

Content is more important than proper grammar. When
people speak different languages at a oocktail party,
they may have to use sign language to communicate, but
they will still find a way to communicate if the ideas
are interesting.

If there is no content there is no conversation. A
good conversation continues whether grammar is good or
bad.

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com




Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:25:23 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Bandido,

I'm a very enthusiastic fan of good language use. I much prefer proper
grammar, piunctuation, etc. In written notes, it would be very hard to
communicate accurately if the punctuation, grammar, etc. are not correct.
However, Derik has a good point insofar as face to face communications go.
The average American has a very tenuous hold on the concept of English
grammar and their vocabulary is very limited, yet they appear to communicate
just fine. I don't know if this applies to tango or not, but he's right in
that people do communicate with gestures, pantomime and limited language
skills if they really want to.

Manuel

(me lern 2 wite gud 1 day)

visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com




>From: Richard deSousa <mallpasso@AOL.COM>
>Reply-To: mallpasso@AOL.COM
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Styles
>Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 01:53:34 -0400
>
>Derik:
>
>Tango is a conversation between two people... if the grammar sucks there is
>no conversation.
>
>El Bandito de Tango
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Sent: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 19:50:17 -0700
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Styles
>
>
>Dear Tom and Dave:
>
>You guys both sound like self appointed English
>professors criticizing the grammar of people who are
>trying to enjoy themselves at a cocktail party. I
>think that you are both missing the point of Argentine
>tango. It is a social evening first, and a dance
>second. Content is king, not grammar.
>
>PS - Tango is pivots, followed by linear steps.
>
>Derik
>d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>
>--- Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
>wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > Amen!
> > Right on!
> > Way to go!
> >
> > You've hit a number of nails on the head
> > with just one stroke (strike) of your pen (hammer).
> >
> > I feel sad for the women when I see intermediates or
> > self-described advanced dancers "leading" women
> > in fancy moves, without consideration for
> > connection
> > the beat of the music
> > the phrasing of the music
> > what the woman is or is not capable of
> > others on the floor
> > They are certainly not showing an appreciation nor
> > an
> > understanding of the music, nor of the social scene,
> > nor are they showing any consideration to the lady
> > who
> > consented to put her trust in his hands for the
> > duration
> > of a tanda.
> >
> >
> > Tom wrote:
> >
> > <many good comments, but I select these for my own
> > emphasis>
> >
> > > There are a lot of linear ideas for beginners:
> > rhythms, lead-follow,
> > > musical phrasing, connection, embrace, clean
> > steps, heels down
> > > (straight legs). In fact, a beginner guy can learn
> > enough in one hour
> > > to walk a lovely beginner lady around the room
> > that same day.
> >
> > Amen!
> > She will feel taken care of.
> > Both will be dancing.
> >
> >
> > > A sensible learning methodology would ensure
> > skills build in a
> > > logical sequence:
> > > (1) Stepping on the beat (walking), concepts of
> > the social dance
> > > floor, and Balance
> > > (2) Hearing the musical phrase,
> > initiating/receiving movement, lead-
> > > follow and Balance
> >
> > Amen!
> > These are topics enough for a few years.
> > Like five
> > or ten
> > or fifteen.
> > And when these are learnt well,
> > one should be able to learn figures by merely
> > watching and trying.
> >
> >
> > > intermediates trying to thrash them through ochos.
> >
> > May I add . . .
> > volcadas
> > colgadas
> > weirdadas
> > freakyadas
> > whatwasthatadas
> > and
> > oopsadas
> >
> >
> > On the other hand, it's very sweet and beautiful to
> > watch when
> > there are beginners who are dancing slowly,
> > carefully, respectfully,
> > with smiles on their faces.
> >
> >
> > Now folks, don't get me wrong. Even that so-called
> > "nuevo"
> > stuff is pretty neat to watch when it's done well.
> >
> > It's just that there's only a snowball's chance in
> > Death Valley
> > of it being done well
> > if the fundamentals were skipped over and butchered.
> >
> >
> > DJ Dave de Denver
> >
> >
>
>




Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:47:57 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Tom Stermitz wrote:

> People learn linear motions easiest, and circular motions much
> slower. This makes sense if you consider how little we spiral and
> pivot in our normal, walk-a-day world.

I'll take that further: Quality of dance correlates directly with
quality of posture. Linear movements are the easiest for
those with bad posture to perform. Spiraling and twisting
motions are damned near impossible for average members
of European/American culture to contend with.

I have observed time and again that the beginners who show
the greatest initial promise are the ones who bring good posture
to the table at the outset. My own experience shows that the
work I do on posture brings the greatest benefit. When my
connection with my partner isn't happening, I usually find that
correcting my posture brings an immediate improvement.

Good posture results directly from complete function of the
musculoskeletal system. In a state of complete function,
we have everything we need for tango to come naturally.
Muscles atrophyied and dormant from lack of use require
dancers to perform unnatural and contorted movements
at their bodies recruit surrounding muscles to do a job for
which they weren't designed.

I think teachers need to harp on posture more. It's not their
job to fix underlying causes, but they should be sending
people to Pilates, Alexander, Feldenkrais, Egoscue and
other places where people can recover full function.

<snipped to end>




Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:04:53 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles

Dear Manuel:

I agree with you completely.

I am also a big fan of proper grammer and the
ignorance of proper grammar the USA, my native
country, does drive me crazy at times, but...

I would rather have a gramatically incorrect
conversation with someone who is doing something
interesting, than have a gramatically correct
conversation with someone who is doing something
boring...lol.

Derik


--- WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Bandido,
>
> I'm a very enthusiastic fan of good language use. I
> much prefer proper
> grammar, piunctuation, etc. In written notes, it
> would be very hard to
> communicate accurately if the punctuation, grammar,
> etc. are not correct.
> However, Derik has a good point insofar as face to
> face communications go.
> The average American has a very tenuous hold on the
> concept of English
> grammar and their vocabulary is very limited, yet
> they appear to communicate
> just fine. I don't know if this applies to tango or
> not, but he's right in
> that people do communicate with gestures, pantomime
> and limited language
> skills if they really want to.
>
> Manuel
>
> (me lern 2 wite gud 1 day)
>
> visit our webpage
> www.tango-rio.com






Sent: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:43:48 -0600
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Styles


People learn linear motions easiest, and circular motions much slower. This
makes sense if you consider how little we spiral and pivot in our normal,
walk-a-day world.

Nuevo Techniques (to me) involve a lot of pivoting and spiraling motions,
which are best introduced later on in the learning process. I prefer it to be
MUCH later on, after people have balance, lead-follow; after they already know
what tango looks and feels like; after they can pretty much ALREADY dance tango.

LINEAR BEFORE CIRCULAR

There are a lot of linear ideas for beginners: rhythms, lead-follow, musical
phrasing, connection, embrace, clean steps, heels down (straight legs). In
fact, a beginner guy can learn enough in one hour to walk a lovely beginner lady
around the room that same day. It is a whole lot easier to learn to TANGO (a
simple tango) than it is to learn the VOCABULARY OF TANGO.

NEGATIVE TECHNIQUE

I'm sure you have seen the poor beginner ladies being cranked off balance by
intermediates trying to thrash them through ochos. If they don't quit, they
are embodying bad habits which will take twice as long to remove. Some teachers
even show ochos in the first classes, before students can hear the beat,
before they can stand upright. And then those same bad Intermediates insist on
teaching the grapevine to every new lady that walks in the door.

A sensible learning methodology would ensure skills build in a logical
sequence:
(1) Stepping on the beat (walking), concepts of the social dance floor, and
Balance
(2) Hearing the musical phrase, initiating/receiving movement, lead-follow
and Balance
(3) Spiraling, no-pivot ochos (close-embrace) and Balance
(4) Spiraling while pivoting (turning ochos or open embrace ochos) and
Balance
(5) Turns still take a lot of practice, but... at least there is a technical
foundation for turns.

SLOWING DOWN THE LEARNING PROCESS

I think many teachers are excited about teaching cool moves, and fail to
provide a good foundation for LATER learning cool moves.

Teaching out of order doesn't speed up the learning process. To the contrary,
it slows people down because they pick up bad habits which take twice as long
to correct. At the worst end, you create a conception of tango as "A BUNCH of
COOL MOVES", rather than cool moves are "SIMPLY THINGS TO DO WHILE DANCING
TANGO".

I see a lot of intermediates with tons of vocabulary but ZERO musicality and
NEGATIVE technique. The poor women who crouch while walking backwards, or on
the other extreme look like they have a stick stuck where the sun doesn't
shine; the poor guys walking around with a hunch, or cranking with their arms.
These bad habits sometimes infect whole communities.... or if we are a little more
lucky, only the segment of the community tied to certain teachers.

Timmy here:
I enjoyed reading every word you wrote Tom.
It's extremely difficult to teach tango and keep students when there are
teachers who will teach what the student wants to learn, verus what the student
needs to learn.
Joanne and I both feel a person should learn the basics of tango first. To
learn the social dance first before going on to other areas of tango. Learn to
navigate around the dance floor before you learn to through a lady up in the
air, or kick between their legs. And how many ladies I see don't, and are not
taught, the importance of collecting their feet. They just want to learn
colgatas and leg raps instead.

I lost count on how many instructors I have had lessons with who constantly
tell us the walk is the whole dance, and how they spent years perfecting their
walk.
It's taken years to where I'm finally seeing the people in Cleveland really
dancing social tango well. Now with Neuvo being introduced, I'm sure the social
dance will lower in quality. I have talked with other cities where they
started out dancing Milonguero and when Neuvo started, the floor craft went down.

What I do see positive about Neuvo is that it is bringing young people into
tango. And I hear in Buenos Aires especially. But soon the kids see the
traditional tango and then are hooked on what I feel is the most romantic style of
tango to dance. For Joanne and I it's the contact we have when we dance that we
love.
For those who favor Neuvo, or Alturnitive, I have no problem with this. But I
do feel if you're going to hold a milonga keep it one or the other, not a
combination of the two.
I don't want to sit at a table waiting for a traditional tango, and I'm sure
the people who prefer alturnitive don't want to wait for something they would
want to dance to either.




Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 05:24:34 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>


How Villa Urquiza style (Traditional Tango) differentiates itself from the other styles: (in this video).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo

Long Steps, Embrace in "V", use of a varying embrace (elastic embrace) close, with little light to open, profuse use of embellishments, elegant erect posture. Elegant formal dressing.

Tango walk with a narrow base, the feet brush heels as they pass each other, the foot lands either toe or heel first. Walking on a line with external rotation of the foot.

1 - Milonguero - Cacho Dante -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk

Shorter steps, embrace more frontal (where the V is less evident), close embrace only, different degree of elegance, Tango walk with a wider base, the feet are right under the hips, the feet do not brush heels as they pass each other, the foot land flat on the sole, walking on two lines, no external rotation of the foot. Less use of embellishments.

2 - Milonguero - Susana Miller- Same as #1 except that here the embrace is more in V, and there is more play with the rhythm. Use of ocho cortado.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Any40gQTc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odl9DBOQsYQ&feature=related

3 - Nuevo Tango -

Fabian Salas - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inw_V_a1W0&feature=related

Tendency to use non traditional tango music.

Very open embrace, colgadas, soltadas, volcadas, piernazos, changes of direction, changes in the embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas.


Mariano Chicho Frumboli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5Bxtck3Uw&feature=related

A very open embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas and changes of direction. Elegance is sacrificed in exchange for an element of "surprise".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lro4WfRpzM&feature=related

Tendency to use non traditional tango music (in this case Argentine flokloric music is used). Some piernazos, some volcada, a very open embrace, some soltadas.
See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/





Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:21:07 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

I always thought that there were a number of traditional salon
(social) styles of tango, of which Villa Urquiza is just one, so I
wanted to know how Villa Urquiza fit within that set of styles. The
reason I say this, is that the tango of each neighborhood always had
its own distinguishing aspects, and VU is just one neighborhood.

In my mental organization of tango styles, milonguero is another
subset of traditional social tango, as they say, a version of tango
suited to crowded, downtown milongas.

Now you are saying that Villa Urquiza IS tradtional salon tango, and
Milonguero is not salon tango. Is that correct?

Nuevo tango is another subset of traditional tango, with considerable
influence from fantasy elements borrowed from Todaro to Zotto. Nuevo
(to me) has nothing to do with non-tango music.

But, I wouldn't really call Nuevo a style, rather it is an analysis of
movements and a set of opportunities, just like fantasy is a set of
moves and opportunities. Nuevo has nothing to do with a wide open
embrace. Chicho (perhaps the bastard son of nuevo) is one end, but if
you ever watch Gustavo (surely the godfather of nuevo) he normally
dances with a very traditional salon appearance.

Is fantasy a style?


On Nov 12, 2008, at 10:24 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:

>
> How Villa Urquiza style (Traditional Tango) differentiates itself
> from the other styles: (in this video).
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo
>
> Long Steps, Embrace in "V", use of a varying embrace (elastic
> embrace) close, with little light to open, profuse use of
> embellishments, elegant erect posture. Elegant formal dressing.
>
> Tango walk with a narrow base, the feet brush heels as they pass
> each other, the foot lands either toe or heel first. Walking on a
> line with external rotation of the foot.
>
> 1 - Milonguero - Cacho Dante -
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk
>
> Shorter steps, embrace more frontal (where the V is less evident),
> close embrace only, different degree of elegance, Tango walk with a
> wider base, the feet are right under the hips, the feet do not brush
> heels as they pass each other, the foot land flat on the sole,
> walking on two lines, no external rotation of the foot. Less use of
> embellishments.
>
> 2 - Milonguero - Susana Miller- Same as #1 except that here the
> embrace is more in V, and there is more play with the rhythm. Use of
> ocho cortado.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Any40gQTc
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odl9DBOQsYQ&feature=related
>
> 3 - Nuevo Tango -
>
> Fabian Salas - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inw_V_a1W0&feature=related
>
> Tendency to use non traditional tango music.
>
> Very open embrace, colgadas, soltadas, volcadas, piernazos, changes
> of direction, changes in the embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas.
>
>
> Mariano Chicho Frumboli
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5Bxtck3Uw&feature=related
>
> A very open embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas and changes of
> direction. Elegance is sacrificed in exchange for an element of
> "surprise".
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lro4WfRpzM&feature=related
>
> Tendency to use non traditional tango music (in this case Argentine
> flokloric music is used). Some piernazos, some volcada, a very open
> embrace, some soltadas.
> See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are
> part of your life
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/
>







Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:05:09 -0600
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Cc: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>

Yes, Traditional Tango is a better description than Villa Urquiza, and
Sergio's description is apt.

Milonguero style was done at the same time, in the city center, very
simply, in various styles, with major emphasis on walking and back
ochos. In 1993 or 94 Susana Miller opened her school to teach it,
featuring the style of Tete. Milonguero style was subsequently promoted
as the only real social tango, ignoring Traditional Tango or that done
in Villa Urquiza and in most neighborhoods of the city.

I find Chicho's "Nuevo Tango" in his first video 'way more tango than
Fabian's, it's really quite lovely and not only because of the music.
Chicho and his partner have a real connection. . Fabian always looks, to
me, like he and his partner are experimenting in how clever and
wonderful they can be (and they are!!), but I see no connection. Without
connection, there is no tango, IMHO, regardless of style or skill. I
also find that when dancing tango techniques to non-tango music the
connection is lost. Not because you can't have a connection without
tango music, but because if you are dancing in a tango way, tango music
is necessary to complete the connection. For example if you are dancing
to blues or Frank Sinatra, you can have plenty of connection; but of
course it isn't tango. I have danced tango movements to Frank Sinatra,
and although enjoyable, it isn't tango and the connection isn't there.
Whereas i can dance foxtrot to Frank or slow swing to blues with plenty
of connection.

Que se yo, soy una vieja verde,
Abrazos,
Barbara in Vallarta

Sergio Vandekier wrote:

>How Villa Urquiza style (Traditional Tango) differentiates itself from the other styles: (in this video).
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo
>
>Long Steps, Embrace in "V", use of a varying embrace (elastic embrace) close, with little light to open, profuse use of embellishments, elegant erect posture. Elegant formal dressing.
>
>Tango walk with a narrow base, the feet brush heels as they pass each other, the foot lands either toe or heel first. Walking on a line with external rotation of the foot.
>
>1 - Milonguero - Cacho Dante -
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk
>
>Shorter steps, embrace more frontal (where the V is less evident), close embrace only, different degree of elegance, Tango walk with a wider base, the feet are right under the hips, the feet do not brush heels as they pass each other, the foot land flat on the sole, walking on two lines, no external rotation of the foot. Less use of embellishments.
>
>2 - Milonguero - Susana Miller- Same as #1 except that here the embrace is more in V, and there is more play with the rhythm. Use of ocho cortado.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Any40gQTc
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odl9DBOQsYQ&feature=related
>
>3 - Nuevo Tango -
>
>Fabian Salas - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inw_V_a1W0&feature=related
>
>Tendency to use non traditional tango music.
>
>Very open embrace, colgadas, soltadas, volcadas, piernazos, changes of direction, changes in the embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas.
>
>
> Mariano Chicho Frumboli
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5Bxtck3Uw&feature=related
>
>A very open embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas and changes of direction. Elegance is sacrificed in exchange for an element of "surprise".
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lro4WfRpzM&feature=related
>
>Tendency to use non traditional tango music (in this case Argentine flokloric music is used). Some piernazos, some volcada, a very open embrace, some soltadas.
>See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/
>
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1783 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 10:01 AM
>
>
>






Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:07:02 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>


I will give my opinion on this subject with the knowledge that other may have a different one. I have been trying to explain the differences and evolution of the tango styles since the mid nineties. It has been a very difficult task. The advent of You tube has greatly facilitated this endeavor as they make obvious the differences.


Tom says:

"The reason I say this, is that the tango of each neighborhood always had its own distinguishing aspects, and VU is just one neighborhood."

It is true that historically each neighborhood had its own distinguishing aspects, this is less obvious in modern times.

Tango used to be learnt inside the neighborhood, where the old milongueros taught the new comers, these days there are more uniform tango lessons all over the city that diluted the differences.

Traditional tango as it was danced in the 40s. was always danced in Villa Urquiza, and in many other places as danced by Nito, Zotto, Copello, Pugliese, Diego Difalco, etc.

It was more recently that the style called "Milonguero" from the crowded milongas of downtown became internationally known as "the social form of dancing tango" this in great part due to the fact that the tourists mostly visit the downtown milongas.

In the meantime Traditional tango was danced in Villa Urquiza as always. When people discovered this, they started calling traditional tango,"Estilo Villa Urquiza".

Summary "Traditional tango" and "Villa Urquiza tango" are the same.

Tom Says:

"In my mental organization of tango styles, milonguero is another subset of traditional social tango, as they say, a version of tango suited to crowded, downtown milongas."

Yes, Traditional tango and Milonguero Style are social forms of tango but generally speaking Traditional tango may also be used for stage while milonguero is normally danced socially.

"Now you are saying that Villa Urquiza IS traditional salon tango, and Milonguero is not salon tango. Is that correct?"

Assuming that Tom is addressing me: my answer is :

Villa Urquiza and traditional tango is the same style called by two different names.

Salon tango in Argentina means the style danced at the milongas to differentiate it from the one danced on stage.

Milonguero is therefore one of the Salon styles.

"Nuevo tango is another subset of traditional tango, with considerable influence from fantasy elements borrowed from Todaro to Zotto. Nuevo (to me) has nothing to do with non-tango music."

Nuevo Tango is not "Traditional Tango" it is a form that developed recently as result of Gustavo Naveira, Fabian Salas and Chicho Frumboli, didactic approach to tango. Originally it was an analytic teaching form that slowly, over a period of 10 - 15 years selected moves from traditional tango and perhaps added some new ones such as piernazos, the back boleo, etc. and in this fashion, Nuevo became a "Tango Style". As it is being taught and danced by many people.

Nuevo Tango is then another style that may be used socially or for exhibition .

Nuevo tango is danced like all the tango styles to traditional tango music, but for those of us that frequently go to their milongas it is obvious that they have a tendency to use alternative music to have more freedom for their dancing moves.

"Chicho (perhaps the bastard son of nuevo) is one end, but if you ever watch Gustavo (surely the godfather of nuevo) he normally dances with a very traditional salon appearance."

It is true, Gustavo uses a traditional tango embrace to dance but the great majority of the Nuevo Tango dancers use a very open tango embrace as shown in the videos. Chicho is not a "bastard son of nuevo' he has been there from the very beginnings with Gustavo and Fabian.

As it is usual in tango each one has his own personal way of dancing even within a particular style.

"Is fantasy a style? "

Fantasy is another name used to describe "Traditional tango" in its more florid appearance. The one where all the possibilities of tango are exhibited socially or on stage.

Best regards, Sergio
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:36:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>

Sergio,

I certainly bow to your superior knowledge of Tango. But! I didn't mention this in my previous post but D?rte Ricklefsen y Ramiro Gigliotti do a 'change of direction' at 0.23 of the original video and they also do one at 1.07 of the second video you posted. I wasn't really sure if this is part of traditional Salon Tango or not. But now you say it's part of Nuevo Tango. I hate to say 'Gotcha' but you did say that the original video had no Tango Nuevo. I know it's picky and pedantic, but this is my nature. Do you agree that D?rte Ricklefsen y Ramiro Gigliotti do a 'change of direction' and is that traditional Tango or Nuevo? Personally, I think the answer is that traditional and Nuevo are getting mixed up nowadays and I think that's great - provided it's still in the style of traditional Tango. I think that I dance traditional Salon Style Tango but I do enjoy 'changes of direction'.

Jack?



> From: Sergio Vandekier sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com

?

>
> How Villa Urquiza style (Traditional Tango) differentiates itself from the other
> styles:? (in this video).
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo
>
>
> 3 - Nuevo Tango? -
>
> Fabian Salas? -? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inw_V_a1W0&feature=related
>
> Very open embrace, colgadas, soltadas, volcadas, piernazos, changes of
> direction, changes in the embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas.
>
>











Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 07:38:34 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
To: "'Tango-L List'" <tango-l@mit.edu>

Is this relevant and accurate?

http://www.tejastango.com/tangostyles.jpg

-----Original Message-----



Sent: Friday, 14 November 2008 2:07 AM
To: Tango-L List
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles


I will give my opinion on this subject with the knowledge that other may
have a different one. I have been trying to explain the differences and
evolution of the tango styles since the mid nineties. It has been a very
difficult task. The advent of You tube has greatly facilitated this endeavor
as they make obvious the differences.








Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:57:17 -0600
From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>

There should be a corrolary to Godwin's law[1]

As a tango-l discussion grows longer, the probablility of it devolving
into a debate about styles approaches 1.

(and/or)

In the absence of any other interesting theme, a tango-l discussion
can be started successfully on the topic of tango styles.

:-)

-joe

_________
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law





Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:18:43 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
To: Tango-L <tango-L@mit.edu>

I think Steve's chart is reasonable. Taxonomies often have multiple
overlapping branches, and we know that Tango always had cross
fertilization, so I'm sure there is no single categorization scheme.

You can muddy things if you lump too much together or if you split
things into too many sub-styles.

Steve doesn't mention more detailed styles like Villa Urquiza, but I
still don't know how VU differs from the tango of other neighborhoods.
Sergio says VU is the same as Traditional Salon tango, but that
ignores the other neighborhoods.

The only main thing I disagree with is that for me Nuevo Tango is more
of an analysis than a style, and doesn't have much to do with non-
tango music.

Someone asked whether "alterations" or "changes of direction" existed
before nuevo. I'm sure they did either as individual passing steps or
certain sequences like chains. What nuevo brought was a discovery of
all the possibilities.

On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Vince Bagusauskas wrote:

> Is this relevant and accurate?
>
> http://www.tejastango.com/tangostyles.jpg
>





Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 03:34:00 GMT
From: "larrynla@juno.com" <larrynla@juno.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Tom Stermitz, Sergio Vandekier, your evident knowledge, common sense, and sheer clarity of expression fill me with admiration. That last is saying much, considering that I've been a professional editor and writer in a technical field, and now am working long and hard to turn my fiction-writing avocation into a vocation.

One comment. Tom wrote "tango of each neighborhood always had its own
distinguishing aspects" and Sergio agrees, also writing "this
is less obvious in modern times".

Buenos Aires the megaplex is pretty big, holding about a third of the 40+ million Argentines, and taking up a few dozen miles in each direction. You can see why individual milongas might develop their own individual styles.

Countering that is the size of the core city itself. Shaped like an ocagon that got badly battered in a fight, it is less than ten miles through. Still plenty big enough so that until fairly recently most people only went to the milongas in easy walking distance. (And many if not most still do that.)

Countering THAT is the public transportation system of BsAs. The underground is extensive and being expanded and rides are cheap and as cheap as those of buses. They do quit running at 10:00 pm, however, and the lines don't go all the way to city edge. The cab system is extensive and cheap, also, with about 40,000 taxis.

Another factor countering the compartmentalization of tango styles is the communication system in Sergio's "modern times." It has pretty much kept pace with those of other modern countries. You could see black-and-white films in the 1930s with tango dancing in them and Argentina's film industry is quite healthy. TV reception in the city has long been available, and it includes a 24-hour channel, Solo Tango, devoted to tango. This includes shows on the history, personalities, music, culture, and dancing of tango. Of course, most of the dancing is done by professionals doing choreographed routines, but they still provide some common expectations by viewers of what tango dancing is.

In addition Argentina is a very computer literate nation and there are often several internet cafes on each city block in the downtown area. YouTube and similar video services can be seen on these computers, though I suspect playing the music aloud is frowned upon! Plus date rates are low, especially when shared with sometimes a few dozen other people in the cafe.

Then, of course, Argentines (many of whom are English-literate) have access to foreigners yacking about tango in forums like this one. No doubt they are highly impressed by us - though whether positively or the reverse is a question I am not eager to see answered!

Also - Huck Kennedy's question. Yes, that's a short segment of paso doble Gloria and Eduardo did in the video you linked to. (Notice that it had a few tango adornments.) What a lot of people seem not to know, or to forget, is that Argentina is a modern country with many sophisticated, educated people fully conversant with what is happening around the world, and have long been. That includes all kind of dancing, social as well as ballet and modern dance. There is a big group of salsa fans in Argentina, and also of (ugh!) "International Ballroom" dancers. And some of the best swing dancing I've ever seen has been in some milongas in Argentina.

And now the mention of canyengue adds yet another ribbon to the tapestry of tango.

All of this talking I have done on the communication and transportation systems of Argentina is to one point. Tango dancers there have a sophisticated menu of dance moves each dancer can use to create their own unique personal style - such as, for instance, to move the arms usually raised up in most tango styles down to the waist level.

That experiment, like all experiments, will probably fail to show us any advantage in the efficiency and beauty of tango dancing. But it might. And those who lack the courage to risk failure by making such experiments are doomed, eventually, to a static and sterile kind of dancing. That is fine. It is their right to make that choice. I choose otherwise.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com


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