193 Tango Styles and freedom of religion.
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:55:02 -0700
From: JEAN LEDUC <jean_leduc22@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles and freedom of religion.
As I understand it there are three main tango styles. Salon, milonguero and
Nuevo Tango. Milonguero may have different names and some variations in form
(Confiteria, Del Centro, Close Embrace, "Salon", Club).
Everyone is free to dance in the style he/she prefers. Those that know all
the styles have no problems adjusting to the different circumstances. Music,
floor, partner's preference, etc. It is obvious that most ladies in Buenos
Aires can dance any style but that they have a certain preference for one
particular one. There are ladies that only know milonguero or salon. Most
New Tango dancers can dance salon with no problem.
Some difficulty arises when a leader tries dancing a style that his partner
is not familiar with. The lady does not know the ocho milonguero (cortado)
for instance. Here (imo) it is better to dance the way she feels more
comfortable with.
In Buenos Aires there are clubs where only a style is danced. People go to
those clubs to dance "only" in that style.
Milonguero or Salon for instance. To go to a Milonguero Club to dance Salon
would be a big mistake. As a leader you will probably will be accepted only
once, period. You will seat for the rest of the night. As a follower you
will be frustrated as all the leaders will dance Milonguero.
Freedom (imo) works both ways, you may dance the way you prefer but a group
of people also have the right to dance the way they like without any sort
off interference.
Here I am talking about people that know how to dance. I am not talking
about those that independently of their style ignore the rules of the dance.
Those will be a problem in any club dancing any style.
I mean, the floor is crowded nobody is going to try to do big steps, throw
ganchos, boleos, amagues, try to do long intricate figures, jumps or do
static moves that will obstruct the normal flow of the crowd.
Under these circumstances one dances in a very compact way, moving with the
rest of the dancers without changing lanes, trying not to collide or
disturbe anybody.
If I like Salon I go to a place where that style is danced, if I like
Milonguero I will not go to that particular place, the same that I would not
go to Denver, CO. to dance Salon during their Milonguero event, I find all
this very basic common sense, but common sense is not very common sometimes.
When I learn to comply with the above then I am practicing real democracy
and freedom of religion.
Can we go to places where people dance in all different styles plus their
own variations? Certainly we can.
We have to know that such places exist, there is plenty of room to dance so
the New Tangueros move all over the floor throwing ganchos, boleos, amagues,
the Salonist move slowly with elegance while the Milonguerists do their own
little steps in a corner. This is paradise! No problem, do you see any?
Vive la difference!
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 17:23:52 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles and freedom of religion.
JEAN LEDUC wrote:
> If I like Salon I go to a place where that style is danced, if I like
> Milonguero I will not go to that particular place, the same that I would not
> go to Denver, CO. to dance Salon during their Milonguero event,
I'm from Denver.
I attended our milonguero weekend.
For two tandas, I danced open-embrace, in the outer circle,
in a compact formation, with no collisions even during boleos.
I've been in B.A. next to Osvaldo Zotto as he did the same
on a crowded floor.
Salon style doesn't need a lot of room.
> We have to know that such places exist, there is plenty of room to dance so
> the New Tangueros move all over the floor throwing ganchos, boleos, amagues,
> the Salonist move slowly with elegance while the Milonguerists do their own
> little steps in a corner. This is paradise! No problem, do you see any?
At our milonguero weekend, the "milonguerists" danced in two, sometimes
three circles around the room, pulsating with the music, moving together
as if a single body.
The others danced in the space remaining in the center.
It worked out quite well.
Deejay Dave,
from Denver
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:23:18 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Tango Styles
Some recent discussions on Tango-L may have perpetuated a view that
Argentine tango can be described as having two major branches----a social
branch known as "milonguero" and an exhibtion branch known as
salon/fantasia. From a historical perspective, this view seems pretty
weak.
One can readily identify five social styles of tango, salon, orillero,
milonguero, club and nuevo. See
<https://www.tango-rio.com/tango.htm>.
Breaks in tango's history make it difficult to ferret out historical
authenticity on the basis of what most people currently dance socially.
Nor does stage dancing offer much insight into social styles of tango. To
find the historical roots of social tango, the best choice is to look at
the social styles of older dancers--some of whom have now passed away. In
doing so, what one most readily finds is a salon-style, orillero-style and
club-style tango. Yet looking at these styles, it is possible to see a
natural evoulution to nuevo-style tango. One can also find many historical
precedents for Tete's personal style--which formed much of the basis for
what is now considered milonguero-style.
Examining fantasia against the background of these social styles, one can
readily see that fantasia draws upon the idioms of social tango. In
particular, fantasia liberally uses elements of salon-, orillero- and
nuevo- style tango, but fantasia is typically danced in an open embrace
with exaggerated movements and additional elements (often taken from
ballet) that are not part of the social tango vocabulary. These balletic
elements fit well with salon-style tango because the partnering in
open-embrace salon-style tango is similar to that in ballet. Those who see
fantasia dancing without understanding to what extent it draws upon social
dance idioms seem to become easily confused.
Ignorance of the old salon-style tango (which some have suggested is
disappearing) removes a key for understanding how the various styles relate
to each other. All of the other styles--orillero, milonguero, club, nuevo
and fantasia--are obviously related to old salon-style tango, even though
they seem more distantly related to each other.
Such ignorance is understandable, however. In many social dance venues,
the old salon-style tango has been supplanted by a flashier salon/fantasia
hybrid and/or a simpler milonguero style. Those who lack experience with
or knowledge of the other social forms of tango find it easy to believe
that Argentine tango has two major branches.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:31:42 -0700
From: ruddy zelaya <ruddy.zelaya@SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles
Dear Steve,
I read your latest posting with interest and I'm afraid that
I have to disagree with you. Your concluding remark that "Those who
lack experience with or knowledge of the other social forms of
tango find it easy to believe that Argentine tango has two major
branches", specially, prompt me to reply because it leaves me with the
impression that a) those who believe the aforementioned statement
are mistaken, and b) that the arguments presented in your message
are satisfying enough to refute that theory. I dispute both points.
Let me start off by saying (in a good way, you know me ;-) that your
statement "Breaks in tango's history make it difficult to ferret out
historical authenticity on the basis of what most people currently
dance socially" is not correct. Barring the nebulous origin of the
term "tango", an absolute "birth" date for the dance, and certification
of its "parents" (whence it came), very little remains that is open
to controversy or dispute. Through the work of eminent "tangologists"
such as Jose Gobello, Horacio Salas, Horacio Ferrer, Francisco Garcia
Jimenez, Fernando Asssuncão, to mention just a handful out of hundreds,
we tango history afficionados are able to have most questions answered.
To "find the historical roots of social tango" the best choice is
precisely not to look at the social styles of older dancers (I'll
explain myself in a minute) but rather explore the writings of the
people who witnessed it and committed their thoughts to paper.
I'll start my explanation by asking the following question, is your
vocabulary today the same as it was 20-30-40(!) years ago? If the
answer -I suspect- is no, then if we think of tango as a way of
communicating between dancing partners using an specific vocabulary
doesn't it follow that a similar maturation process is likely to
have had happen? I submit that the probability of older dancers
(in their 60-70s or even 80s) dancing today the same way as they
did when they were teenagers or twentysomethings is slim to nil.
Fortunately, there are quite a few descriptions of what the dance
looked like back in those days. Memory is fallible. Written records
can be trusted.
The belief that there is something mysterious or unknown about the
evolution of tango is due in part to the real controversy surrounding
its origins, i.e., we don't know for sure the exact ratios in which
the different "parent dances" were blended in order to come up with
the first "true" tango dance. But once we go beyond that, there is
enough historical (as in written) evidence to diagram the evolution
of the dance from its earliest forms to today's. Thus, in its main
parts that history looks like this:
Liso --> Salon --> Apilado
/1880s-1910s 1910s-today 1940s-today \
/ Nuevo (1990s-today)
/ /
Proto-Tango --> Canyengue --> Orillero --> Cabaret --> Fantasia
1850s-1870s 1870s-1920s 1880s-1930s 1940s-1950s 1950s-today
Bear in mind that history is a continuum and social change (barring
revolutions or natural catastrophes) is never abrupt. Thus, a certain
amount of overlap has always occurred. Just as today Salon, Apilado,
Fantasia, and Nuevo coexist, there was a time when Canyengue, Liso,
Salon and Orillero coexisted. Moreover, there have been several
"revivals" or "retro" movements that bring back archaic forms of the
dance (and music) back in vogue. Apilado, for example, that dates back to
the 1940s, all but dissapeared during the 60's and 70's but is back
in fashion today. Dancers danced the appropriate style according
to venue, likes, and abilities. Cabaret tango (also called show
tango) evolved into tango-for-export and became Fantasia tango when
ballet idioms were added. True Canyengue and Orillero, alas, are no more.
The reason why I trace a direct line from the proto-tango to Fantasia
is that, historically speaking, tango Fantasia is the closest in spirit
to the "true" tango. Tango from its inception was a way for the males
to show-off in front of each other and more importantly, the females.
It was flamboyant, exciting to watch, shameless in its look-at-me
selfpromotion, and a way to scream to the four winds I-AM-THE-BEST-PICK-ME
without having to say it in so many words.
As you state, tango Fantasia draws from Salon, and Orillero (on Nuevo
I disagree because the converse is more likely) as well as ballet.
It has to. Tango Liso, Salon or Apilado do not lend themselves well
to be "watchable" by non-tango dancers sitting several yards away from
a stage. To be quite honest, that has as much appeal as watching commuter
traffic. Thus, it is by necessity that tango Fantasia is the way it
is: Open so that the audience can see the bodies, flamboyant so that
the people on row J of the Third Tier can understand what it is that
the dancers are saying to each other, and balletic to enhance the
meager set of idioms available to a social tango dancer.
Tango Fantasia is one branch. The second branch started with the
tango Liso (liso=simple). Viejo Tanguero wrote in 1913 as follows:
"Interpreted by the girls -for the most part italians- that couldn't
adapt to the movement given to it by the true stock criollos and it was
then that the name <<tango liso>> was given to it." Thus, tango Liso
diverges from Canyengue in that it was a tamed version of it, without
ondulations, crude movements (cortes y quebradas), and less cadence.
That's the tango that went to Paris. The tango that came back to America
was a "tango afrancesado" -Frenchy tango- and one that the purists condemned
as not being the "true" tango anymore even back then in the late 1910s.
By blending ballroom idioms with the tango Liso you end up with tango
de Salon. By shortening Salon tango idioms you end up with tango Apilado
(or milonguero, club, petitero or the less charitable caquero, etc.)
I think it is too early to classify Nuevo tango into the first or the
second major branch. Salsa is a melange of rumba, mambo, danzon, cumbia,
bolero, tango(!!), etc. The so-called Nuevo tango is the Salsa of tango
(I don't mean that disparingly so put yer guns away ;-) in that it borrows
from every tango style and even non-tango dances. To wit, it has walks
and giros like tango Salon, the man's left arm can be Salon, Canyengue,
or Apilado, the dancers may break off the embrace (the trade mark of tango)
and turn on their axis entirely a la swing or salsa, etc., etc.
If Nuevo tango becomes the dominant style at the milongas then it will
become the rightful heir to the Salon tango branch. If stage dancers adopt it
and it becomes accepted by the international audiences then it would sit
squarely on the Fantasia branch. It can also continue on its own, thus
giving rise to a third branch. Or it may become extinct once the fad
wears off (does anybody remember swango? -swing + tango; tango rueda?
tango + contra(??); malango? -malambo + tango; sango? -samba + tango).
So, in my opinion there are two major branches of tango (at least for now)
dating all the way back to the 1880s with Salon and Fantasia at their ends.
Truth be told, though, the whole thing is academic. It's all tango after
all. One should enjoy whatever variant they like best as long as they
don't interfere with others or spook the horses ;-)
Best regards to you and Susan.
---
ruddy
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:06:31 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles
Ruddy Zelaya wrote:
>There is enough historical (as in written) evidence to diagram
>the evolution of the dance from its earliest forms to today's.
>Thus, in its main parts that history looks like this:
>
> Liso --> Salon --> Apilado
> /1880s-1910s 1910s-today 1940s-today \
> / Nuevo
> / / 1990s-today
>Proto-Tango-->Canyengue-->Orillero-->Cabaret --> Fantasia
>1850s-1870s 1870s-1920s 1880s-1930s 1940s-1950s 1950s-today
>So, in my opinion there are two major branches of tango
At least we agree that the two branches are not salon/fantasia and
milonguero. ;-)
Although I respect your timeline, I do see the recent history a little
differently.
First we must recognize that tango is danced in a spectrum of
individualistic or
personal styles, and many tango dancers who are Argentine do not accept a
categorization of their own dancing by any broad stylistic name. They
simply say they are dancing tango, their own style, or the style of their
neighborhood or city. In addition, a few confuse the issue further by
identifying their own style by a name that other dancers associate with a
different style. Consequently, clearly describing the characteristic of
various styles has been challenging, potentially controversial, and
possibly
misleading.
One of the difficulties I have with Ruddy's evolution of tango chart, is
that it seems to rely more heavily on step content than rhythmic
sensibilities. This is most evident in showing apilado in the salon
branch. This style seems to have rhythmic sensibilities from the
canyengue/orrilero branch. Hence, I would be inclined to show this as a
new branch.
In addition, what Ruddy calls "apilado" others have divided into two
styles--club and milonguero. Club has a close embrace but not the apilado
embrace that characterizes milonguero. Hence, I could not combine these
styles under the label "apilado."
Fantasia seems to have roots the canyengue/orillero branch Ruddy shows it
evolving from, but it also seems to draw from salon tango, particularly in
its rhythmic sensibilities.
I agree that fantasia emerged before nuevo tango, but today's fantasia does
seem draw upon nuevo.
It appears to me that nuevo draws primarily from fantasia, but also from
social dance traditions of both salon and orillero. I do not really see
elements of club- or milonga-style tango in nuevo--either from a rhythmic
perspective or on the basis of step content. Maybe others would disagree.
Liquid tango, which I think has developed primarily from nuevo, does
incorporate elements of club-style tango.
In addition, some dancers see orillero as surviving to today. Let's
continue all branches that are surviving to today along with their
offshoots, and let's integrate the rhythmic sensibilities along with step
content. My result is as follows:
Proto-Tango
/
\
Canyengue
/ \
\ Liso
/ \
Orillero Salon
\-->\---------------->\------------->\ /
/ \ \ \ \
\ \ /<-----\---------/<---\<----/<----/
/ \ / \ \ \ / \
\ Club/Milonguero \ / Cabaret /
/ \ \ \ \ \ \
\ / \ \ / / /
/ \ \ \ \ Fantasia \
\ / \ \ / / \ /
/ \ \ \ \ / / \
\ / \ \ / / \ /
/ \ \ \\/ / \
\ / \ Nuevo \ /
/ \ \ / / \ / \
\ / \ / \ \ \ /
/ \ \ / / \ / \
Orillero Club/Milonguero Liquid Nuevo Fantasia Salon
If we leave club and milonguero joined as one style, we are left with six
branches of styles today. If we ask which branches are major, however, we
find that the mixed heritage of the club/milonguero, liquid, neuvo and
fantasia make it difficult to draw any conclusion.
If we combine our branches on the basis of step content, as Ruddy seems to
do, we can argue that the two major branches are orillero/fantasia/nuevo
and salon/club/milonguero, as he has done. If we combine our branches on
the basis of rhythmic sensibilities, as some others might do, we can argue
that the two major branches of tango are orillero/club/milonguero and
salon/fantasia/nuevo.
>Truth be told, though, the whole thing is academic. It's all tango after
>all. One should enjoy whatever variant they like best as long as they
>don't interfere with others or spook the horses ;-)
I agree, but apparently Eduardo Arquimbau does not as reported by Linda
Valentino:
>{An]other observation that Eduardo made is the tendency for Americans to
mix
>styles within one tango, which he thinks looks really bad. He (and other
>teachers I've spoken to) believe that it's fine to dance more than one
>style, but that you dance only one style within one tango, depending on
the
>music.
I do not find it too surprising that we Americans mix historical styles of
tango as we dance. First, most of us have studied with a variety of
teachers, who rarely identify their style with a particular era. Second,
few of us have a sufficient historical knowledge of styles to distinguish
them. Third, we can see by looking at the historical chart that new styles
combine elements of previous styles with new innovations.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
