111 teaching on the dance floor
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 02:50:52 EDT
From: Sarah La Rocca <Danzisima@AOL.COM>
Subject: teaching on the dance floor
Eugenia Spitovsky wrote in response to my posting:
"Are you sure beginners can see the difference? Can they speak up even if
they do? Not really. Even if women feel
uncomfortable, physically or emotionally, they are not sure if tango
should feel this way....The rule of not teaching on a dance floor should be
well-accepted everywhere, as well-respected by everyone. Teaching during
dancing is inappropriate and should be banned everywhere."
Look, I never said anyone should be teaching on the dance floor. Where did
you get that idea? The only thing I hate more than being taught on the dance
floor is being misquoted.
I maintain that beginners aren't idiots. You may be a beginner at tango, but
you are not a beginner at life. If someone or something makes you feel bad,
uncomfortable or compromised than it IS wrong and you need to take the
responsibility for yourself and get out of there.
This is true in tango, in a taxi, in the grocery store or with your lover.
Got it?
regards,
Sarah La Rocca
NYC
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:05:23 -0700
From: Judy Stockinger <judytango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Rejecting dances/Teaching on the dance floor
I generally try not to refuse requests to dance. If
the man requesting the dance is someone I do not enjoy
dancing with either because of inexperience, "teaching
on the dance floor" behavior, or for some other
reason, I simply limit the dance to one only. A
beginner usually understands the reason for this,
others usually get the message after this happens
repeatedly.
If there is someone I truly wish to avoid dancing with
I avoid making eye contact with them, even though this
is not BA and men usually approach you to request a
dance, the avoidance of eye contact is usually
interpereted correctly.
On the few occasions that I do refuse a dance I do not
accept one with another until a new piece of music
begins...no matter how much I might want to dance with
them...I usually confide to them that I just refused
someone else and so could not possibly accept their
invitation at the moment. Most men respect this and
we will usually sit and chat until the new piece
begins..
If the leader attempts to instruct me on the dance
floor, I either ignore his comments, say "sshhhh...no
talking" or tell him kindly that I really just want to
enjoy the dance not work on a lesson.
Occassionally a beginner will ask for suggestions...I
usually tell him that he will learn what he is doing
right or wrong by the response he achieves. I do not
give unsolicited advice.
In general, I try to treat my dance partners with the
same respect and kindness with which I expect to be
treated.
Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 17:29:11 -0700
From: Judy Stockinger <judytango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Women dancing with women and teaching on the dance floor.
Speaking as a woman who likes men and who sometimes dances with other women, as a follower, the tango I dance with a woman is not the same tango that I dance with a man. It's a completely different dynamic. There are the physical differences in being led by someone who is probably smaller and more slightly built and has other anatomical features different from my ususal partners. Then, there's the cultural aspect of women being accustomed to dancing together. Maybe it's not as common for women to dance the partnered dances togther as much as free style dancing, but we do it because it's fun and it's a good way to practice. How often do you see two women dancing salsa, cha-cha, swing, freestyle. etc. and don't think it strange or loaded with any more significance than that they are simply enjoying the music and the dance. This is of course the perspective af a woman following another woman, and who prefers to dance tango with men. The woman leader's perspective may be comp!
letely different. I also want t
o add that almost ALL of the woman who have led me in tango have been unable to heed their own advice when it comes to teaching on the dance floor (!)...and I am not a beginner, but someone who is noted for having better than average following skills.
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:30:58 -0700
From: catmum <catmum@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: teaching on the dance floor
Mary Ellen,
I think it is fair to say that this has happened to most of us,
sometimes with good intentions, and sometimes it is just ego-serving.
In a teaching situation, or at a practica, where teaching/mentoring is
actively happening all around us, hopefully we are all trying to help
each other progress, and even beginners have something to offer. It is
up to each person to be a "wise consumer" and to observe carefully and
use discrimination in the process of learning.
At a milonga, it is a totally different situation, in my opinion. At
times over the years, leaders have taught, corrected, or chastised me
in the middle of a set. It seems to me, that whatever my lack or error
was, it is less grievous than theirs: The leader has broken the
connection. Without the connection, it is just steps, and you are on
your own. It is doubtful whether the follower will even remember or be
able to apply whatever "important" point the leader is trying to teach.
Most likely the leader will have a stiff, guarded, disconnected
partner for the rest of the tanda (most of us are too nice to just walk
off).
Sometimes, as a follower, when I know I have missed a lead, or not
responded as well as I could have, I have said something like "I know I
missed that," or "sorry, I don't know what to do there," and the most
gracious, and empowering thing those leaders have said to me was "it
went exactly as it was supposed to go."
Claire
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:55:17 -0500
From: "Berger, Sherwin" <Sberger@RTICO.COM>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
"At times over the years, leaders have taught, corrected, or chastised me
in the middle of a set."
I think that if every follower would flat out refuse to dance ever again
with such rude inconsiderate leaders that they would soon disappear from the
dance floor and everyone in Tango would be better off!
Sherwin Berger
Always Considerate!
Chicago Tango Dancer
-----Original Message-----
From: catmum [mailto:catmum@COMCAST.NET]
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 12:31 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] teaching on the dance floor
Mary Ellen,
I think it is fair to say that this has happened to most of us,
sometimes with good intentions, and sometimes it is just ego-serving.
In a teaching situation, or at a practica, where teaching/mentoring is
actively happening all around us, hopefully we are all trying to help
each other progress, and even beginners have something to offer. It is
up to each person to be a "wise consumer" and to observe carefully and
use discrimination in the process of learning.
At a milonga, it is a totally different situation, in my opinion. At
times over the years, leaders have taught, corrected, or chastised me
in the middle of a set. It seems to me, that whatever my lack or error
was, it is less grievous than theirs: The leader has broken the
connection. Without the connection, it is just steps, and you are on
your own. It is doubtful whether the follower will even remember or be
able to apply whatever "important" point the leader is trying to teach.
Most likely the leader will have a stiff, guarded, disconnected
partner for the rest of the tanda (most of us are too nice to just walk
off).
Sometimes, as a follower, when I know I have missed a lead, or not
responded as well as I could have, I have said something like "I know I
missed that," or "sorry, I don't know what to do there," and the most
gracious, and empowering thing those leaders have said to me was "it
went exactly as it was supposed to go."
Claire
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:08:42 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
I don't think there is a leader out there who has not at one time or
other offered corrections, suggestions, hints, ideas, or even a step at
practices or milongas. This even happens in class settings, when the
teacher is present.
To continue in the devil's advocate role.
Tango places a lot of power in the role of the leader (typically male).
Power to ask ladies for a dance, power to set style, tone, musicality
of the dance; power to move the follower around the room. Tango places
the women in a receptive role, which sort of sets her up for taking the
blame for mistakes, whether they are hers or his.
Helping a newcomer lady is probably one of the primary mechanisms of
flirting offered (or "opportunity-ed" ?) by tango to an intermediate
guy. He can learn some complex figure (like an 8CB), then teach it to a
new lady. He feels competent; she feels like she has received knowledge
enabling her to get out there and dance.
This is probably even one of the primary reasons why men do tango; that
is, to appear confident, competent and capable of leading the women.
Few are really skillful enough to lead a new woman without words. Even
if she has several months of instruction rarely has enough skill to
interpret all the leads of an intermediate dancer.
So inevitably, there is some teaching going on.
Isn't this true of all lead-follow dances?
Maybe the best we can hope for is that such "teaching" be done with
courtesy and care. Isn't the measure of a gentleman is that he be
gentle?
Tom Stermitz
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
h: 303-388-2560
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:01:53 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
Tom Stermitz writes:
> Maybe the best we can hope for is that such "teaching" be done with
> courtesy and care. Isn't the measure of a gentleman is that he be
> gentle?
Screw that.
Once again, the vast majority of the focus of the
ubiquitous "Teaching at the Milonga" thread is limited
to how bad it makes most women feel. But when we just
focus on that, it invites the offenders to counter with,
"Well, that doesn't apply to me, because she *asked* me
to help her and enjoyed my teaching."
But what about the rest of us? We go to the milonga
for the tango-trance atmosphere it affords. The last
thing we need is for some clown to interrupt the reverie
of "Sollozos" by stopping in the middle of the floor to
hold up the ronda while he loudly explains what he is
trying to lead.
No teaching on the miloga floor. Period. If you
do it, you are a rude boor.
Huck, "Now tell us how you *really* feel, Huck!"
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:21:37 -0700
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
Mea Culpa, I am guilty of teaching at milongas. But I have an
excuse, your honor!
(I thought everything was OK when you have an excuse.)
I find myself teaching maybe once or twice per milonga, and
usually, though not always, with beginners.
What I do, is that when I feel that my partner is...kind of
rigid in her frame, or I feel a certain kind of "performance
anxiety", or I feel she is tight in her chest, I will whisper in
her ear, "Breathe." And smile at her.
This is important, because if they don't breathe, they will
eventually keel over, and make you look bad on the dance floor.
So far, it's worked, to varying degrees, every time. They almost
always do take a breath, the get out of the "tight" mind-frame,
and they do seem to step more freely and enjoy the dance.
Although my partners have occasionally asked for explicit
instructions, I have always recommended practicas as a better
place to work out those sorts of details.
ramiro
--- Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG> wrote:
> I don't think there is a leader out there who has not at one
> time or other offered corrections, suggestions, hints,
> ideas, or even a step at practices or milongas.
> This even happens in class settings,
> when the teacher is present.
=====
ramiro garcia
ramiro9@yahoo.com
---
In their feud [Stalin and Trotsky] both were right. Stalin was right in
maintaining that his regime was the embodiment of socialist principles.
Trotsky was right in asserting that Stalin's regime had made Russia a hell.
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:31:36 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
Huck writes:
"...But what about the rest of us? We go to the milonga for the
tango-trance atmosphere it affords. The last
thing we need is for some clown to interrupt the reverie of "Sollozos" by
stopping in the middle of the floor to
hold up the ronda while he loudly explains what he is trying to lead...No
teaching on the miloga floor. Period. If you
do it, you are a rude boor."
I identify with Huck's sentiment.
Hearing another leader chattering away in low tones as I am dancing near
them is very distracting and annoying, in my experience. It doesn't matter
if the discussion/monologue is related to teaching brilliant tango gems or
discussing dinner plans. First of all, I've noticed that if the leader is
focusing on verbal conversation, that leader probably isn't paying as much
attention to navigation as they otherwise would. I have learned to stay
away from them while they mumble, much as I would a blind backstepper. But
ultimately, it's the unwanted audio "entertainment" that offers the greatest
challenges when trying for a tango trance anywhere near them.
As I've mentioned before, if the host can provide space somewhere else off
the floor (preferably in another room) for those who can't resist teaching
while visiting a milonga, this offers the greatest good for the greatest
number.
I can understand the urge to help someone. But I challenge all leaders who
occasionally feel the need to talk/teach during the milonga to use the
occasion as an opportunity to develop their "nonverbal teaching" skills.
I've sometimes had to teach beginners whose native language I couldn't speak
well. Teaching across a language barrier, I thus had to rely almost
completely on what I could "say" without words. It's amazing to discover
how much of tango instruction can be conveyed SILENTLY simply by dancing
with a beginner, going slowly, pausing if needed, and repeating as
necessary. You can always clarify something verbally, if needed, within
three minutes when the song ends.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:55:05 EDT
From: TimmyTango@AOL.COM
Subject: teaching on the dance floor
Yes, I have given recommendations to my partner while dancing. I did it while
moving with the music and I did not stop the line of dance. If something went
wrong, I usually said "can we try that again."
Is that teaching, or just helping? I call it helping. Everyone does it. I
find nothing wrong with that.
But it's the people who will take a person for 3, 4 or more tangos that are
teaching, or trying to steal someone else's students.
What point I find wrong with this is "The blind leading the blind." It's
usually the person who shouldn't be teaching that teaches on the dance floor, and
the people who should, don't.
A person who teaches during a dance doesn't have a daily or weekly lessons.
They usually will teach a the person what they want to learn and not what they
need to learn. To teach a person Ganchos or Sacadas on their first or second
lesson is crazy. The people can't even walk straight or find their balance or
know what their axis is, and here they are, Throw me up in the air.
As a person just staring out in any dance, you should learn in a controlled
order, never going faster than your learning ability.
(crawl before you walk, and walk before you run)
We have to teach some of these leaders to dance at the followers level, not
his own. Gavito always says, "Make the women look like a queen, and you will
look like a King."
And ladies, have you ever danced with a man who was just showed off to the
people sitting around the dance floor, putting you in all kinds of advanced
steps you never seen before, while your dancing out of control, and didn't know
what was coming next.
It's up to you women to stop men like this. In BsAs the men have respect for
the women. Ladies, how do you want to be treated?
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:24:12 -0500
From: Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
I have never seen so much response to any subject as to this question of
teaching on the dance floor or more specifically teaching at a milonga.
This only tells me that it must be a problem or a benefit depending on
your perspective most everywhere.
I tend to land on the side of milongas are for relaxation and enjoying
the atmosphere. And lessons and practicas are the place for instruction.
At a milonga I try to do whatever teaching with a non verbal
communication. But I have not always adhered to this 100% of the time. I
do recollect one particular lady who never attended classes or practicas
and relied on attending dances to learn not only tango but a large
number of other dances.
For whatever reasons this was her method of operation. Non verbal
leading can be a very enjoyable and a follower can learn a lot but when
it comes to learning technique there has to be some instruction. Well
shoot me, this lady has been able to coax a little instruction out of me
on occasion. Should I refuse? Perhaps but wow does she have a beautiful
smile and she wanted help. And I have always been a rescuer. :-)
What I really want to address is that a certain percentage of tango
people are uptight and anal about their own view of tango. How it should
be danced, how it should be conducted, How this or how that. I know from
my own exit polls of people leaving tango that this attitude has been
discussed as a turnoff. An atmosphere of discord and tension is one of
the reasons stated for not wishing to come back. (Disclaimer: My poll
was not scientifically based and as such can be biased.)
My observation is generally the more experienced someone becomes the
less likely they are to be close minded about other possibilities and
opportunities. I have observed this in all areas of our lives not just
in tango.
My advice would be to learn to relax and enjoy your own dance. No one
can disturb your tango unless you yourself turn over the power to them.
Learn what your own boundaries are and then to communicate your
boundaries in a pleasant, considerate manner. If communicated in this
manner most people will not be offended.
Blessings,
leonardo k
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:22:45 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
Ok, first off, this is *not* a personal attack on you, Leonard.
Leonard Kunkel wrote:
> At a milonga I try to do whatever teaching with a non verbal
> communication.
A question, not an accusation (think Krishnamurti) - if the mind is
holding onto the concept of "teaching," where is there room for the
music, your partner, the "flow" of the room, etc.? If your follower is
flawlessly responding to your slightest invitation, does the concept of
"teaching" ever enter the mind? Not saying that you do or think this,
Leonard, but it goes back to this patronizing attitude that our follows
(read: women) need to be "fixed" somehow.
> I do recollect one particular lady who never attended classes or practicas
> and relied on attending dances to learn not only tango but a large
> number of other dances. For whatever reasons this was her method of operation.
In other words, a disrespectful freeloader. Not wanting to invest time
and money to actually go to a class or practica, she prefers to bat her
eyes and con free lessons out of people on the dance floor. Wonderful....
After the tanda, I usually take these people by the hand, lead them to
the hosts, and say, "These people are wonderful teachers, perhaps you
would enjoy taking their classes, I'm simply not qualified, yada, yada."
>
> What I really want to address is that a certain percentage of tango
> people are uptight and anal about their own view of tango. How it should
> be danced, how it should be conducted, How this or how that. I know from
> my own exit polls of people leaving tango that this attitude has been
> discussed as a turnoff. An atmosphere of discord and tension is one of
> the reasons stated for not wishing to come back. (Disclaimer: My poll
> was not scientifically based and as such can be biased.)
Can I venture a supposition that most of the people voicing these
objections to etiquette are baby-boomers ("Nobody can tell me what to
do!")? Why is it that people that have a modicum of respect for
tradition and other cultures are viewed as "uptight and anal"? I agree
that there's no One True Way to *dance* tango, but there is over a
century of evolved tradition as to how to conduct oneself at a milonga.
Are my teachers and people like Susana Miller wrong for saying, "no
teaching at a milonga"?
> My advice would be to learn to relax and enjoy your own dance. No one
> can disturb your tango unless you yourself turn over the power to them.
It gets a bit difficult to "relax and enjoy your own dance" when I'm
spending almost 100% of my time protecting my partner from flying feet,
bumper car tango, stage wannabes hurtling through the space at
trans-warp speeds with no regard for others, and guiding her around
impromptu rehearsals by resident egomaniacs and stalkers. It's always a
lot nicer and easier to get to tango trance when everyone is considerate
of other couples and the space in general. And it's not beginners who
are the problem - it's the intermediates and alleged "advanced" dancers
who think the rules don't apply to them.
The best times I have ever had at milongas was when it was *so* crowded
that the stage wannabes, self-appointed "teachers", and other
insensitive boors had to shut up and dance. The ronda achieved a flow,
the couples started dancing *with* each other rather than in their own
little worlds, and the energy and spirit of the milonga went through the
roof. Sadly, it never lasts long....
Michael the Uptight and Anal
Tango Belligham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:37:34 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
Jeez... you took the page out of my pet peeves notebook. Here in the SF bay
area navigation is practically non-existent in some of the milongas. Many of
the dancers (leaders are the guilty ones!!) don't respect lanes, zig zagging
every way, especially the outer lane where I tend to dance, consequently I get
cut off many times during the evening.... I could go on and on and on......
arrrghh!
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 7/24/2004 14:29:37 Pacific Standard Time,
michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM writes:
It gets a bit difficult to "relax and enjoy your own dance" when I'm
spending almost 100% of my time protecting my partner from flying feet,
bumper car tango, stage wannabes hurtling through the space at
trans-warp speeds with no regard for others, and guiding her around
impromptu rehearsals by resident egomaniacs and stalkers. It's always a
lot nicer and easier to get to tango trance when everyone is considerate
of other couples and the space in general. And it's not beginners who
are the problem - it's the intermediates and alleged "advanced" dancers
who think the rules don't apply to them.
The best times I have ever had at milongas was when it was *so* crowded
that the stage wannabes, self-appointed "teachers", and other
insensitive boors had to shut up and dance. The ronda achieved a flow,
the couples started dancing *with* each other rather than in their own
little worlds, and the energy and spirit of the milonga went through the
roof. Sadly, it never lasts long....
Michael the Uptight and Anal
Tango Belligham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:58:47 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
Michael the Uptight and Anal wrote in response to Leonard Kunkel the
Undefined thus:
>Leonard Kunkel wrote:
>
>>At a milonga I try to do whatever teaching with a non verbal
>>communication.
A question, not an accusation (think Krishnamurti) - if the mind is holding
onto the concept of "teaching," where is there room for the music, your
partner, the "flow" of the room, etc.? If your follower is flawlessly
responding to your slightest invitation, does the concept of "teaching" ever
enter the mind?
The point well stated. The devil is in the attitude as usual.
On the other hand, I have experienced this _uncommon_ instance of
unconscious learning at yesterday s milonga. My partner has inspired me to
lead steps I have never led before. I am sure she wasn t familiar with those
steps either. Yet everything clicked. Have we tried or thought about
teaching each other? Not at all. Yet we both have learned quite a bit (at
least I have).
Wasn t this the way the dance has developed originally? Not that I would
recommend everyone to study tango this way not many dancers have a
distinct, unexpected, challenging dance personality and one might not have a
century to reach current level of tango.
Cheers, Oleh K.
http://TangoSpring.com
>From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
>Reply-To: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] teaching on the dance floor
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:22:45 -0700
>
>Ok, first off, this is *not* a personal attack on you, Leonard.
>
>Leonard Kunkel wrote:
>
>>At a milonga I try to do whatever teaching with a non verbal
>>communication.
>A question, not an accusation (think Krishnamurti) - if the mind is
>holding onto the concept of "teaching," where is there room for the
>music, your partner, the "flow" of the room, etc.? If your follower is
>flawlessly responding to your slightest invitation, does the concept of
>"teaching" ever enter the mind? Not saying that you do or think this,
>Leonard, but it goes back to this patronizing attitude that our follows
>(read: women) need to be "fixed" somehow.
>
>>I do recollect one particular lady who never attended classes or practicas
>>and relied on attending dances to learn not only tango but a large
>>number of other dances. For whatever reasons this was her method of
>>operation.
>
>In other words, a disrespectful freeloader. Not wanting to invest time
>and money to actually go to a class or practica, she prefers to bat her
>eyes and con free lessons out of people on the dance floor. Wonderful....
>
>After the tanda, I usually take these people by the hand, lead them to
>the hosts, and say, "These people are wonderful teachers, perhaps you
>would enjoy taking their classes, I'm simply not qualified, yada, yada."
>
>>
>>What I really want to address is that a certain percentage of tango
>>people are uptight and anal about their own view of tango. How it should
>>be danced, how it should be conducted, How this or how that. I know from
>>my own exit polls of people leaving tango that this attitude has been
>>discussed as a turnoff. An atmosphere of discord and tension is one of
>>the reasons stated for not wishing to come back. (Disclaimer: My poll
>>was not scientifically based and as such can be biased.)
>
>Can I venture a supposition that most of the people voicing these
>objections to etiquette are baby-boomers ("Nobody can tell me what to
>do!")? Why is it that people that have a modicum of respect for
>tradition and other cultures are viewed as "uptight and anal"? I agree
>that there's no One True Way to *dance* tango, but there is over a
>century of evolved tradition as to how to conduct oneself at a milonga.
>Are my teachers and people like Susana Miller wrong for saying, "no
>teaching at a milonga"?
>
>>My advice would be to learn to relax and enjoy your own dance. No one
>>can disturb your tango unless you yourself turn over the power to them.
>
>It gets a bit difficult to "relax and enjoy your own dance" when I'm
>spending almost 100% of my time protecting my partner from flying feet,
>bumper car tango, stage wannabes hurtling through the space at
>trans-warp speeds with no regard for others, and guiding her around
>impromptu rehearsals by resident egomaniacs and stalkers. It's always a
>lot nicer and easier to get to tango trance when everyone is considerate
>of other couples and the space in general. And it's not beginners who
>are the problem - it's the intermediates and alleged "advanced" dancers
>who think the rules don't apply to them.
>
>The best times I have ever had at milongas was when it was *so* crowded
>that the stage wannabes, self-appointed "teachers", and other
>insensitive boors had to shut up and dance. The ronda achieved a flow,
>the couples started dancing *with* each other rather than in their own
>little worlds, and the energy and spirit of the milonga went through the
>roof. Sadly, it never lasts long....
>
>Michael the Uptight and Anal
>Tango Belligham
>www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:12:45 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
> Michael the Uptight and Anal wrote in response to Leonard Kunkel the
> Undefined thus:
*ROFL*. Priceless, absolutely priceless! Thank you, Oleh - you made my day!
> On the other hand, I have experienced this _uncommon_ instance of
> unconscious learning at yesterday’s milonga. My partner has inspired me
> to lead steps I have never led before. I am sure she wasn’t familiar
> with those steps either. Yet everything clicked. Have we tried or
> thought about teaching each other? Not at all. Yet we both have learned
> quite a bit (at least I have).
>
Or, as jazz trumpeter Clark Terry said so many years ago, "Imitate,
Assimilate, Innovate." Jazz guitarist Emily Remler pointed out that she
spent years copying other peoples' licks and idioms during practice, but
that her subconscious reassembled them and what came out in performance
was uniquely hers! Sounds like something similar happened to you....
Cheers,
Michael the U. and A.
--
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:07:21 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
> Mea Culpa, I am guilty of teaching at milongas. But I have an
> excuse, your honor!
>
> What I do, is that when I feel that my partner is...kind of
> rigid in her frame, or I feel a certain kind of "performance
> anxiety", or I feel she is tight in her chest, I will whisper in
> her ear, "Breathe." And smile at her.
>
> This is important, because if they don't breathe, they will
> eventually keel over, and make you look bad on the dance floor.
>
> So far, it's worked, to varying degrees, every time.
If it has worked, you have been lucky, Ramiro.
I can't help feeling reminded of an experience I once had years ago, when I
went to a milonga in another city, did not know anyone, and finally was
asked by some man who had been hanging around for a while, and I had watched
him get rejected by another woman too. Stupid me accepted. The whole dance
was hell, beginner that I was, and only used to dancing salidas and ochos,
mostly. I could not make head or tail of it. The whole thing felt like
repeated aborted attempts at a crooked 8cb with a rockstep, leftover from
ballroom lessons in teenage days, thrown in somewhwere . Moreover, there was
no lead. Finally, he said:"Why don't you just give yourself up to the dance?
Just let go and let it happen!" "WHAT dance?", I thought, and felt that
having this glib new age stereotype thrown at me in this conceited way was
adding the ultimate insult to injury.
When I came back from the dance floor, the other ladies informed me, that I
had become a victim of "The Hound" or whatever they called him, and that I
had been very unlucky.
I think, at a milonga, no comment is better than any comment, Ramiro.
With the right leader, who is clear, considerate and completely concentrates
on the woman, even a beginner will melt in his arms. "Go this way, turn that
way, relax, feel that electrical current", are all things a skilled leader
is able to communicate with his body only.
Astrid
P.S.
I also do not appreciate being asked to verbally respond to the
question:"Was it as good for you as it was for me?" ; )
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:09:11 +0000
From: Russell Ranno <russellranno@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: teaching on the dance floor
If, in the spirit of the dance, my partner suggests that we take a deep
breath together, I am joyous...
Russell
>From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
>Reply-To: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] teaching on the dance floor
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:07:21 +0900
>
> > Mea Culpa, I am guilty of teaching at milongas. But I have an
> > excuse, your honor!
> >
> > What I do, is that when I feel that my partner is...kind of
> > rigid in her frame, or I feel a certain kind of "performance
> > anxiety", or I feel she is tight in her chest, I will whisper in
> > her ear, "Breathe." And smile at her.
> >
> > This is important, because if they don't breathe, they will
> > eventually keel over, and make you look bad on the dance floor.
> >
> > So far, it's worked, to varying degrees, every time.
>
>If it has worked, you have been lucky, Ramiro.
>I can't help feeling reminded of an experience I once had years ago, when I
>went to a milonga in another city, did not know anyone, and finally was
>asked by some man who had been hanging around for a while, and I had
>watched
>him get rejected by another woman too. Stupid me accepted. The whole dance
>was hell, beginner that I was, and only used to dancing salidas and ochos,
>mostly. I could not make head or tail of it. The whole thing felt like
>repeated aborted attempts at a crooked 8cb with a rockstep, leftover from
>ballroom lessons in teenage days, thrown in somewhwere . Moreover, there
>was
>no lead. Finally, he said:"Why don't you just give yourself up to the
>dance?
>Just let go and let it happen!" "WHAT dance?", I thought, and felt that
>having this glib new age stereotype thrown at me in this conceited way was
>adding the ultimate insult to injury.
>When I came back from the dance floor, the other ladies informed me, that I
>had become a victim of "The Hound" or whatever they called him, and that I
>had been very unlucky.
>I think, at a milonga, no comment is better than any comment, Ramiro.
>With the right leader, who is clear, considerate and completely
>concentrates
>on the woman, even a beginner will melt in his arms. "Go this way, turn
>that
>way, relax, feel that electrical current", are all things a skilled leader
>is able to communicate with his body only.
>
>Astrid
>P.S.
>I also do not appreciate being asked to verbally respond to the
>question:"Was it as good for you as it was for me?" ; )
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:53:55 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Teaching on the dance floor
Even though it looks like the topic is exhausted, I have some thoughts about
it I'd like to share.
Of course it is not a good idea in the way most people perceive it. Ego is
often involved, but..
Why teaching? Tango is a very abstract activity, it requires a lot of
thinking conscious or unconscious, and it similar to any science ( math is
science ). It is well known that when someone tries to explain it to others,
he himself structurizes and expands his knowledge a lot, it is an amazingly
powerful method of education of the "teacher" himself.
What is wrong when a small 7th grade boy having been learned at school how
to solve quadratic equations is explaining it to his friend? Nothing wrong
with it, it is only good, and school teachers encourage it.
So what is wrong then about teaching on the floor which some of us
understand as when an inexperienced man tries to tell even younger beginner
what to do? The wrong thing about it is that he is usually "teaches" wrong.
Think about it! I see it like his teachers where teaching him wrong! He does
not know what to tell, and how to do things right. And that is what and how
he was taught! On the other hand, if his teachers where good, he just
reconveys their knowledge. It shouldn't be too bad.
There are all sorts of people attracted to tango for various reasons. I only
want to show that we can think more of the problem from different angles not
simplifying it and hiding behind paper gates of various "rules".
I am not even speaking about when people exchange their views, share new
steps, or even argue about technique, and when a knowledgeable person give
others some hints ( it only his reputation is at stake, who cares? ). There
is nothing which can be possibly wrong about it as soon as they let others
dance.
Igor Polk
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 03:29:48 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Teaching on the dance floor
Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> escribis:
What is wrong when a small 7th grade boy having been learned at school how
to solve quadratic equations is explaining it to his friend? Nothing wrong
with it, it is only good, and school teachers encourage it.
Igor,
I am afraid your're missing the point that others made:
The 7th grader won't explain anything to his friend during class. The teacher (Trini ;-))?) will put him/her out, as she should!
Lucia
Abrm tu cuenta aqum
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 20:46:40 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teaching on the dance floor
Igor Polk writes:
> So what is wrong then about teaching on the floor which
> some of us understand as when an inexperienced man tries
> to tell even younger beginner what to do?
Any teaching on the floor is wrong because it annoys
the hell out of the rest of us who have paid to come to
a milonga (read, tango trance), not a practica. A milonga
and a practica might be the same in your podunk town, but
they sure aren't in mine, or in Buenos Aires, or anywhere
I'd ever spend precious time and money travelling to to tango.
Huck, "smilies for sale, 50 cents"
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 22:01:25 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching on the dance floor
Huck,
Yes, I feel the same, teaching on the floor is annoying in "tango trance",
and not only.
I do not see many "teachers" on the floors, so it is really a very small
matter to me. Bad music might cause me more troubles to keep "tango trance".
Igor.
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 22:14:34 -0800
From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@MAC.COM>
Subject: Teaching on the dance floor
I am sure you all have your perspectives that have a valid basis.
I for one, having taught something similar to Tango for 47 years -
disagree. A quiet few words on a major need of your junior partner
can help them overcome and everyone enjoys another blossoming dancer,
who may often outperform their peers and even many instructors. That
was my career.
Being courteous and thoughtful of all Tangueros and guests is a prime
strategy for all of us. Our goal is to perform the dances to the
music and create an experience with your dance partner that both
enjoy.
I for one, would not be receptive to impolite and pushy dancers. I
would do my best to be polite and informative, inviting them to
participate as we all do in performing such a lovely dance.
Dr. Zarlenga, a citizen of many countries,
Pura vida, y vivate por el duende del tango.
At 8:46 PM -0700 3/9/06, Huck Kennedy wrote:
>Igor Polk writes:
>> So what is wrong then about teaching on the floor which
>> some of us understand as when an inexperienced man tries
>> to tell even younger beginner what to do?
>
> Any teaching on the floor is wrong because it annoys
>the hell out of the rest of us who have paid to come to
>a milonga (read, tango trance), not a practica. A milonga
>and a practica might be the same in your podunk town, but
>they sure aren't in mine, or in Buenos Aires, or anywhere
>I'd ever spend precious time and money travelling to to tango.
>
>Huck, "smilies for sale, 50 cents"
>
--
Rich coast
of flowers and dreams,
dancing nights
and candle light
as the mist passes
into the night ...
I miss her breath
of life and ...
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 13:29:00 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching on the dance floor
>From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@MAC.COM>
>
>I am sure you all have your perspectives that have a valid basis.
>
>I for one, having taught something similar to Tango for 47 years -
>disagree. A quiet few words on a major need of your junior partner
>can help them overcome and everyone enjoys another blossoming dancer,
>who may often outperform their peers and even many instructors. That
>was my career.
>
>Being courteous and thoughtful of all Tangueros and guests is a prime
>strategy for all of us. Our goal is to perform the dances to the
>music and create an experience with your dance partner that both
>enjoy.
>
>I for one, would not be receptive to impolite and pushy dancers. I
>would do my best to be polite and informative, inviting them to
>participate as we all do in performing such a lovely dance.
>
>Dr. Zarlenga, a citizen of many countries,
>Pura vida, y vivate por el duende del tango.
I think the above words are wise. The so called rules of tango cannot be
applied in a draconian way. All rules have exceptions and each case is
different. We all know that dancing in line of dance is one of the basic
things that make tango more enjoyable to dance. Yet, in many communities the
people dance in all kind of haphazard directions and in their own way...
Some of them are actually quite vocal in their objection to accepting any
rules imposed on their dancing. Likewise, other "rules" of tango don't apply
in some places because the local consensus is that they don't like those
rules and they will not accept them. There are groups or communities that
specifically proclaim that they do not adhere to any arbitrary set of rules
or customs "just because they do it in BsAs" because after all, we are not
in BsAs....
In many cases this is unfortunate for those tangueros and tangueras who
prefer the more traditional approach. Many things such as the playing of
non-tango music at milongas, the absence of tandas, disregard of the LOD and
other things that are distressing to the purists have become fairly
commonplace and are actually the rule in some communities.
The temptation to criticize and lambaste their preference is very compelling
among some of us ;-), but in reality, trying to change those things by force
or trying to impose any rules that differ from their norm is going to be
counterproductive. Furthermore, harsh criticism and ridicule is going to
result in hard feelings and entrenchment of beliefs. The same applies to
wholesale indictments of people for perpetrating all sorts of perceived
infractions whether it's true or not.
Regards,
Manuel
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 13:49:01 -0500
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching on the dance floor
Words of wisdom, Manuel...
But if going to Buenos Aires is too expensive and too foreign, maybe sending
the recalcitrants for a learning experience to Pittsburgh USA c/oTrini or
Woodstock USA c/o Ilene would help? No, probably not...
seth
On 3/10/06, WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> .
> Some of them are actually quite vocal in their objection to accepting any
> rules imposed on their dancing. Likewise, other "rules" of tango don't
> apply
> in some places because the local consensus is that they don't like those
> rules and they will not accept them. There are groups or communities that
> specifically proclaim that they do not adhere to any arbitrary set of
> rules
> or customs "just because they do it in BsAs" because after all, we are not
> in BsAs....
>
>
>
> Manuel
>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:28:25 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching on the dance floor
>From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
>
>Words of wisdom, Manuel...
>
>But if going to Buenos Aires is too expensive and too foreign, maybe
>sending
>the recalcitrants for a learning experience to Pittsburgh USA c/oTrini or
>Woodstock USA c/o Ilene would help? No, probably not...
>
Well, I don't know how to say this so it's not construed as some kind of
judgement or criticism, but all joking aside, that would not "work" or
"reform" these recalcitrants as you call them.... Many of them have indeed
gone to Bs As and experienced the tango over there. This is why I say that
trying to impose rules or traditions on people is often times
counterproductive.
For whatever reason, some people come back from Bs As feeling one way about
tango and others come back with a diametrically opposite idea.... There are
those who become purists and adhere to the old customs even more than the
Argies of today's milongas. OTOH, others come back with all sorts of ideas
about how to integrate what they liked in Bs As with what they like in the
USDA (or wherever) and they produce some sort of amalgam or synthesis that
pleases them and their friends.
Still, what I mostly want to say is that public condemnations of people for
imagined or exaggerated misdeeds is no better than lambasting individuals or
groups for not doing things in some sort of orthodox manner.... Mind you,
I'm pretty much of a purist when it comes to tango, but that does not keep
me from observing that people have other ideas and values than make more
sense to them. As I said before, I want to give up the idea that I must be
right and someone else must be wrong... I have my likes and dislikes, and I
can choose to dance with some and not others or dance to some music and not
other, etc. The one thing that seems to create the most trouble all around
(for me anyways) is to argue and bicker with others about personal likes and
dislikes.
Best,
Manuel
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:56:55 -0800
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching on the dance floor
last post makes lot of sense.
yes the rules always have exceptions. I dont remember when was the last time I was bothered by "teaching" in the milonga, there are more pressing issues.
Well I understand it is always a good idea to educate people and or to have general guidelines. But to have rules and interpret and apply them in literal way IMHO is never a good idea. We cannot afford to have Taliban type mullahs in tango, i am obviously exagerating here, tango people are generally nicer;).
As we know all problems of this world caused by the righteous puritanical regimes. May here be we should not make dogmas out of virtues ;). After all we dance tango to escape from real world with all its Talibans and Khomeinis.
WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>From: seth
>
>Words of wisdom, Manuel...
>
>But if going to Buenos Aires is too expensive and too foreign, maybe
>sending
>the recalcitrants for a learning experience to Pittsburgh USA c/oTrini or
>Woodstock USA c/o Ilene would help? No, probably not...
>
Well, I don't know how to say this so it's not construed as some kind of
judgement or criticism, but all joking aside, that would not "work" or
"reform" these recalcitrants as you call them.... Many of them have indeed
gone to Bs As and experienced the tango over there. This is why I say that
trying to impose rules or traditions on people is often times
counterproductive.
For whatever reason, some people come back from Bs As feeling one way about
tango and others come back with a diametrically opposite idea.... There are
those who become purists and adhere to the old customs even more than the
Argies of today's milongas. OTOH, others come back with all sorts of ideas
about how to integrate what they liked in Bs As with what they like in the
USDA (or wherever) and they produce some sort of amalgam or synthesis that
pleases them and their friends.
Still, what I mostly want to say is that public condemnations of people for
imagined or exaggerated misdeeds is no better than lambasting individuals or
groups for not doing things in some sort of orthodox manner.... Mind you,
I'm pretty much of a purist when it comes to tango, but that does not keep
me from observing that people have other ideas and values than make more
sense to them. As I said before, I want to give up the idea that I must be
right and someone else must be wrong... I have my likes and dislikes, and I
can choose to dance with some and not others or dance to some music and not
other, etc. The one thing that seems to create the most trouble all around
(for me anyways) is to argue and bicker with others about personal likes and
dislikes.
Best,
Manuel
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 17:37:41 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching on the dance floor
Dear Manuel:
Exactly. You are right. All this judgemental stuff,
rules, "have to's", is not really in the spirit of
Argentine tango. Argentine Tango is mostly a
wonderful social experience and it should be enjoyed.
It is not a job. It is not work to be done.
People who have no sense of humor about tango are
dull, boring and totally predictable. Why would anyone
want to share a dance with them. They are not growing
and they bring other people down by criticizing them.
It is terrible. My opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 Cell
--- WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
>
> >
> >Words of wisdom, Manuel...
> >
> >But if going to Buenos Aires is too expensive and
> too foreign, maybe
> >sending
> >the recalcitrants for a learning experience to
> Pittsburgh USA c/oTrini or
> >Woodstock USA c/o Ilene would help? No, probably
> not...
> >
>
> Well, I don't know how to say this so it's not
> construed as some kind of
> judgement or criticism, but all joking aside, that
> would not "work" or
> "reform" these recalcitrants as you call them....
> Many of them have indeed
> gone to Bs As and experienced the tango over there.
> This is why I say that
> trying to impose rules or traditions on people is
> often times
> counterproductive.
>
> For whatever reason, some people come back from Bs
> As feeling one way about
> tango and others come back with a diametrically
> opposite idea.... There are
> those who become purists and adhere to the old
> customs even more than the
> Argies of today's milongas. OTOH, others come back
> with all sorts of ideas
> about how to integrate what they liked in Bs As with
> what they like in the
> USDA (or wherever) and they produce some sort of
> amalgam or synthesis that
> pleases them and their friends.
>
> Still, what I mostly want to say is that public
> condemnations of people for
> imagined or exaggerated misdeeds is no better than
> lambasting individuals or
> groups for not doing things in some sort of orthodox
> manner.... Mind you,
> I'm pretty much of a purist when it comes to tango,
> but that does not keep
> me from observing that people have other ideas and
> values than make more
> sense to them. As I said before, I want to give up
> the idea that I must be
> right and someone else must be wrong... I have my
> likes and dislikes, and I
> can choose to dance with some and not others or
> dance to some music and not
> other, etc. The one thing that seems to create the
> most trouble all around
> (for me anyways) is to argue and bicker with others
> about personal likes and
> dislikes.
>
> Best,
>
> Manuel
>
>
