6  teachng on the social dance floor and self confidence

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From: amilsolrac [amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Montag, 12. Februar 2001 07:45
To: TANGO-L
Cc: amilsolrac
Subject: teachng on the social dance floor and self confidence

Week ago, Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango@AOL.COM> sprach:

>

... at a Milonga, the idea is if you make a mistake, keep moving. Don't
stop to figure out what went wrong, people are dancing all around you and
here you are standing in the middle of the dance floor stopping traffic. Do
that at a practica.
<

Please, DO NOT do that in a practica. Practicas are where you learn the good
stuff, including fundamental good habits, such as that of not interrupting
the flow of the dance with some stupid "figure" that takes up the entire
width of the dancing track (all lanes). Stopping to look into some difficulty
must be done in such a way as to permit others to dance by. (If it must be
done at all: this kind of work-out is best done in class, during a tutorial
period of a practica or milonga, in private practice, etc.) Since even
teachers block the flow of dancers in practicas, it is no wonder that one
sees so often in milongas dancers with years of tango in them holding up an
entire floor with some interminable and ridiculous footsie playing sequence,
with all couples bunched up in half of the floor, and a mile of empty space
(that no one cannot get to) downstream from the footsie players.

Timmy further said:

>

Now add the technique of not bumping into any one.
<

Please, do not ever ADD this ... technique. START with it. The most
unfortunate thing about the current tango teaching that I know of is that
people are not told FROM THE VERY BEGINNING that bumping into someone else
who is visibly THERE, or moving freely in a way that increases the risk of
collisions (e.g., across or against the direction of dance), constitute
COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE behaviour REGARDLESS of the experience level of the
dancer. Teachers need to teach FROM THE VERY BEGINNING movements and modes of
execution that students CAN control well enough not to be bouncing off each
other, stepping on each other, kicking each other, etc. Telling people "you
are not allowed to ram others" seems the epitome of redundancy; but many
apparently cannot figure this out by themselves, so everyone MUST be told.
Saying that people should be taught only what they can control well enough
not to risk hitting others seems the epitome of obviousness; but apparently
it is not being done, so it must not be as obvious as it seems.

Timmy also commented:

>

Walking in the line of dance, (...) Remember the worst dancers are always end
up in the middle of the dance floor because they are out of control and
traffic that they can't maneuver around puts them there (...) Where the best
dancers are on the outside edge, (...)
<

The so-called "line of dance" is NOT a place. You are not on it or off it. It
is a direction of movement. There is a direction (or line) of dance no matter
where the dancing couple is on the floor (except dead center). It is a
direction roughly parallel to the nearest wall or other dance floor boundary,
pointing so that a couple following it circulates counter-clockwise. I do not
care to know where the good dancers vs bad dancers were in a 1945 BAs salon,
or where they are supposed to be now. I do not know if I am a good dancer or
a bad one: it depends on whether I am being compared to Carlos Copello (then
I am really BAD!) or to ... well never mind. All I know is that, no matter
where I am, I am supposed to respect the direction of dance, for instance, by
not cutting close into the path of (bad, good, or indifferent) dancing
couples who are moving conscientiously along the direction (or line) of dance
--- much less RAMMING them ... or anyone else for that matter. The rest is
very interesting folklore, or very uninteresting nonsense --- pick one.

The line of dance is NOT a queue (or "line" in the USA) either. You do NOT
"follow the line of dance" by moving around like chicken without a head
number seventeen, mindful not to overtake chicken without a head number
sixteen, and ensuring by all means at your disposal, including violence, that
chicken without a head number eighteen does not pass you, thereby becoming
chicken without a head number seventeen and relegating you to "chicken
without a head number eighteen" status. In the outermost ring of a well bred
milonga (which NO milonga around here is, really) a queue does tend to form,
where the most experienced people tend to be. Since there (unlike here) they
presumably know what they are doing, there is normally no reason to overtake
(i.e., dance around) or being overtaken, unless someone without a clue gets
there "by mistake". So a queue of some kind may form. But the same exactly
should be the case along inner lanes. Couples in one lane may move past
couples in another. This happens all the time in the best bread milongas. In
ill bread milongas people moving correctly are CLOBBERED by chickens without
a head. Chickens without a head always move across lanes, against the ronda,
along any diagonal to the direction of dance, in circles and five pointed
star patterns, regardless of who might be on their way.

Well, I started from Timmy's posting, by "quibbling" with it. I am pretty
sure that we do not really disagree much about these matters. I am not
responding to any of the other points he makes, even though there are, I am
sure, disagreements aplenty. For instance, just about everything on
musicality. But see, I am not so worried about that.

Cheers,


PS - I have been a few times with Carlos Copello in the same milonga. He
dances infinitely better than I do. But when it comes to navigation I noticed
that he does the same that I do. He moves right down the pike. We even passed
each other a number of times. (No eminent risk of collision.) He deviates
moderately from straight down the pike only if there is free space for it. He
does not execute interminable ridiculous figures in place, of course; but if
he did, I am sure he would leave space for us poor sods to dance by.






From: roadraat [roadraat@YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Montag, 12. Februar 2001 09:59
To: TANGO-L
Cc: roadraat
Subject: Re: teachng on the social dance floor and self confidence

Puh-lease.

Who can be bothered with this much rhetoric. Ya
practice at a practice. Ya dance at a dance. KISS.
Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Nelson

--- Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Week ago, Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango@AOL.COM>
> sprach:
>
> >
> ... at a Milonga, the idea is if you make a mistake,
> keep moving. Don't
> stop to figure out what went wrong, people are
> dancing all around you and
> here you are standing in the middle of the dance
> floor stopping traffic. Do
> that at a practica.
> <
>
> Please, DO NOT do that in a practica. Practicas are
> where you learn the good
> stuff, including fundamental good habits, such as
> that of not interrupting
> the flow of the dance with some stupid "figure" that
> takes up the entire
> width of the dancing track (all lanes). Stopping to
> look into some difficulty
> must be done in such a way as to permit others to
> dance by. (If it must be
> done at all: this kind of work-out is best done in
> class, during a tutorial
> period of a practica or milonga, in private
> practice, etc.) Since even
> teachers block the flow of dancers in practicas, it
> is no wonder that one
> sees so often in milongas dancers with years of
> tango in them holding up an
> entire floor with some interminable and ridiculous
> footsie playing sequence,
> with all couples bunched up in half of the floor,
> and a mile of empty space
> (that no one cannot get to) downstream from the
> footsie players.
>
> Timmy further said:
>
> >
> Now add the technique of not bumping into any one.
> <
>
> Please, do not ever ADD this ... technique. START
> with it. The most
> unfortunate thing about the current tango teaching
> that I know of is that
> people are not told FROM THE VERY BEGINNING that
> bumping into someone else
> who is visibly THERE, or moving freely in a way that
> increases the risk of
> collisions (e.g., across or against the direction of
> dance), constitute
> COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE behaviour REGARDLESS of the
> experience level of the
> dancer. Teachers need to teach FROM THE VERY
> BEGINNING movements and modes of
> execution that students CAN control well enough not
> to be bouncing off each
> other, stepping on each other, kicking each other,
> etc. Telling people "you
> are not allowed to ram others" seems the epitome of
> redundancy; but many
> apparently cannot figure this out by themselves, so
> everyone MUST be told.
> Saying that people should be taught only what they
> can control well enough
> not to risk hitting others seems the epitome of
> obviousness; but apparently
> it is not being done, so it must not be as obvious
> as it seems.
>
> Timmy also commented:
>
> >
> Walking in the line of dance, (...) Remember the
> worst dancers are always end
> up in the middle of the dance floor because they are
> out of control and
> traffic that they can't maneuver around puts them
> there (...) Where the best
> dancers are on the outside edge, (...)
> <
>
> The so-called "line of dance" is NOT a place. You
> are not on it or off it. It
> is a direction of movement. There is a direction (or
> line) of dance no matter
> where the dancing couple is on the floor (except
> dead center). It is a
> direction roughly parallel to the nearest wall or
> other dance floor boundary,
> pointing so that a couple following it circulates
> counter-clockwise. I do not
> care to know where the good dancers vs bad dancers
> were in a 1945 BAs salon,
> or where they are supposed to be now. I do not know
> if I am a good dancer or
> a bad one: it depends on whether I am being compared
> to Carlos Copello (then
> I am really BAD!) or to ... well never mind. All I
> know is that, no matter
> where I am, I am supposed to respect the direction
> of dance, for instance, by
> not cutting close into the path of (bad, good, or
> indifferent) dancing
> couples who are moving conscientiously along the
> direction (or line) of dance
> --- much less RAMMING them ... or anyone else for
> that matter. The rest is
> very interesting folklore, or very uninteresting
> nonsense --- pick one.
>
> The line of dance is NOT a queue (or "line" in the
> USA) either. You do NOT
> "follow the line of dance" by moving around like
> chicken without a head
> number seventeen, mindful not to overtake chicken
> without a head number
> sixteen, and ensuring by all means at your disposal,
> including violence, that
> chicken without a head number eighteen does not pass
> you, thereby becoming
> chicken without a head number seventeen and
> relegating you to "chicken
> without a head number eighteen" status. In the
> outermost ring of a well bred
> milonga (which NO milonga around here is, really) a
> queue does tend to form,
> where the most experienced people tend to be. Since
> there (unlike here) they
> presumably know what they are doing, there is
> normally no reason to overtake
> (i.e., dance around) or being overtaken, unless
> someone without a clue gets
> there "by mistake". So a queue of some kind may
> form. But the same exactly
> should be the case along inner lanes. Couples in one
> lane may move past
> couples in another. This happens all the time in the
> best bread milongas. In
> ill bread milongas people moving correctly are
> CLOBBERED by chickens without
> a head. Chickens without a head always move across
> lanes, against the ronda,
> along any diagonal to the direction of dance, in
> circles and five pointed
> star patterns, regardless of who might be on their
> way.
>
> Well, I started from Timmy's posting, by "quibbling"
> with it. I am pretty
> sure that we do not really disagree much about these
> matters. I am not
> responding to any of the other points he makes, even
> though there are, I am
> sure, disagreements aplenty. For instance, just
> about everything on
> musicality. But see, I am not so worried about that.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> PS - I have been a few times with Carlos Copello in
> the same milonga. He
> dances infinitely better than I do. But when it
> comes to navigation I noticed
> that he does the same that I do. He moves right down
> the pike. We even passed
> each other a number of times. (No eminent risk of
> collision.) He deviates
> moderately from straight down the pike only if there
> is free space for it. He
> does not execute interminable ridiculous figures in
> place, of course; but if
> he did, I am sure he would leave space for us poor
> sods to dance by.
>
>
>
> only $35
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>


=====
New address. Frontal lobe surgery.
Docile. Loves personal mail.




From: rajan [rajan@EMC.COM]
Sent: Montag, 12. Februar 2001 10:56
To: TANGO-L
Cc: rajan
Subject: Re: teachng on the social dance floor and self confidence

Nelson Fleet wrote:

> Who can be bothered with this much rhetoric. Ya
> practice at a practice. Ya dance at a dance. KISS.
> Keep It Simple, Stupid.
>

There is only one thing for a beginner to try to do
before everything else and that is to not to bump
into anyone or let anyone bump into you no matter
whose fault it is and *still try to keep to the
music* i.e., not stop. I also think perhaps it is
also the most difficult part :-)

Trying to teach or talk or wrestle with the follower
inside the dance floor may lead to collisions since
it is difficult for the leader to have control under
those circumstances.

rajan.



From: adm [adm@SMCAR.COM.AR]
Sent: Montag, 12. Februar 2001 13:04
To: TANGO-L
Cc: adm
Subject: A grammar correction about teachng on the social dance floor and self confidence

> Nelson Fleet wrote:
>
> > Who can be bothered with this much rhetoric. Ya
> > practice at a practice. Ya dance at a dance. KISS.
> > Keep It Simple, Stupid.
> >

Sorry Nelson, but you place a comma where it id does not go.

KISS means Keep It Simple Stupid.

Simple: adjective
Stupid: Noun

meaning: plain and easy to understood.

By placing the comma you change the meaning, and becames aggressive.
Simple: noun , easy
Stupid: noun, the student that is trying to cope with all the new feelings
and movements. He could be a lot of
things, but definitely, he or she is not stupid.


Kind regards

Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires



From: amilsolrac [amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Dienstag, 13. Februar 2001 17:27
To: TANGO-L
Cc: amilsolrac
Subject: Re: teachng on the social dance floor and self confidence

Nelson Fleet <roadraat@YAHOO.COM> posted to the venerable Tango-L

> Puh-lease. (...) KISS (...) <

thus graduating up from giving us his maestros's CV in installments, detailed
analyses of lead and follow for beginners, and arbitration of list content.
It behooves us to be patient with new comers: a little "youthful"
rebeliousness is perhaps a natural part of the initial enthusiasm that tango
so often generates. It is maybe even a good thing, who knows. I could gently
chide some of the veterans of the list for egging on, in this and other
cases, harmless nonsense that does not question any of the established
beliefs (or even knows about them). But I cannot. I was one of the first ones
to do it this time!

However, it is may be opportune to relate what I happened to learn yesterday.
A well known professional tanguera in this area had her foot BROKEN in a
milonga a couple of years back. Someone stepped hard on her. This is one more
of many serious injuries about which I found out over time, some of them
having required many months of recovery.

Of course we do not need to get to consequences of "real" Dance Sport
proportions to be strongly motivated to wipe out brutish / ignorant /
inconsiderate / anoying behaviour on the dancing floor. I do not care for
fake / condescending "sensitive"; but I certainly believe classical couple's
dancing should be, inter alia, a form of artistic expression, for which
gentle and genteel people of both sexes meet. Nelson may even prove to be one
of them over time. He is just angry at me ...

Cheers,

PS - Nelson, this will be easier for you to learn than leading, navigating,
or arguing in a rational manner. DO NOT include entire postings by other
people as attachments to your own. There is even a rule against it in the
materials you received from our long suffering list administrators.






Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:35:43 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: f

> Honestly all. This is probably a good time to ignore Farqyu's posts.
> Read his name phonetically (whole name). He's just stirring up trouble for fun.

I'm with you Joseph. Knowing myself, I've said more than enuf about this alt tango thing. I'm sorry about that. I'll chill in the future...

peace...
r






Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:06:52 +0200
From: skoc <skoc@NOOS.FR>
Subject: Re: f

About phonetic reading of his name, it was so obvious that there was no
need to to insist any further on that subject.

What matters to me is the assimilation he does of the concepts of Turkey and
foundamentalism which, in my opinion, are two opposite ideas. Anyway how can
you imagine a country where you can dance tango in several different spots
every night only in Istanbul be qualified as foundamentalist ?

Second thing Turkey is NOT an arabic country, There is nothing wrong about
being arabic but it simply isn't so... there are probably more Arabs here in
France than in Turkey, this doesn't make of France an arabic country either.
It just isn't the same culture. Since all these events, assimilations of
concepts by analogy of ideas are going beyond the limits of absudity. If you
don't watch out, perceptions can generate reality.

So the troll is basically a liar and as he showed it in his recent postings,
he is an ennemy of Turkey and of democracy. He is just trying to harm the
image of the country by several pathetic attempts.

End of it.

Now for the music and dance to answser Rick, I think there is so much one
should learn about traditionnal tango before getting into anything else,
that for me, in the case of tango, being original comes to lower the
quality.

It is so easy to pass contemporary tango or alternative non-tango music in a
milonga and think you're cool, you cannot imagine, all you need to do is to
play it. On the other hand, I understand the frustration of having to dance
on recordings of the 30'-50's.

I do listen to contemporary Tango, I love Piazzolla but I listen to him at
home or in a concert hall. In milongas, I think there could be one or two
specific Piazzollas (but didn't he say himself that his music wasn't for
dancers, what else do you need?), Ewan Mc Gregor, Gotan Project or something
strange but one tanda with 2 or three of these are enough, NOT the whole
night !

Same for dancing, I believe one should work and know how to execute complex
movements but during the milonga, you have to show respect other people who
don't necessarily have accept being kicked or bothered by a space consuming
phenomena who thinks he is original.

I think tango music will really evolve if there is serious money to be made,
like in Salsa. Salsa music has never been as good as now because there is a
lot of competition and many brilliant musicians are getting into it and
because the winner gets the big stake.

When this will happen for tango, believe me, you will know it. For the time
being, I will use my favorite quote "difference is worth only if it
corresponds to a superiority" and it is not yet the case for dancable tango.
Whatever happens, it won't happen unless the roots are explored thouroughly.
Piazzolla did this work but he decided to take a distance with the dancers.
Just like in Swing whatever happened for the dancers finished in the 50's
then, the music evolved into jazz and other forms of music without the
dancers. But history of music is continuously written and it is very
possible that dancers and musicians will genuinely meet again.

I just remembered what Duke Ellington responded to an interviewer
questionning him about how he managed to keep such brilliant musicians. He
responded "I pay them well". Well, I guess he said it all.

Meanwhile, it could be a strategy to worship anyone that claims to do
neo-tango music hoping that others will join the movement into a qualitative
dynamic... why not?

Go ahead, I'll join you later !

I hope you won't qualify my views as being "foundamentalist" :-D

Kindest regards
Sedat

> Honestly all. This is probably a good time to ignore Farqyu's posts.
> Read his name phonetically (whole name). He's just stirring up trouble

for fun.

I'm with you Joseph. Knowing myself, I've said more than enuf about this alt
tango thing. I'm sorry about that. I'll chill in the future...

peace...
r


> Honestly all. This is probably a good time to ignore Farqyu's posts.
> Read his name phonetically (whole name). He's just stirring up trouble

for fun.

I'm with you Joseph. Knowing myself, I've said more than enuf about this alt
tango thing. I'm sorry about that. I'll chill in the future...

peace...
r


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