5826 Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:38:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: RonTango <rontango@rocketmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
To: tango-l@mit.edu
----- Original Message ----
> From: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Subject: Re: No place left to dance
>
>
> The point being that "alternative music" implies nuevo moves, that terrifies
> some traditionalist people and thus causes much debate.
>
> However, if the term "alternative milonga" keeps the traditionalists away,
> it gives more room for nuevo.
>
> Sort of a win-win situation then.
If nuevoists do not pass on the 'traditional' milonga, then there is a 'heads I win, tails you lose' situation for them.
If nuevoists call their milongas 'alternative', do traditionalists need to call their milongas 'traditional', or is just plain 'milonga' OK? Perhaps out of necessity they need to say 'traditional Buenos Aires style milonga with all classic tango music'. This will scare away people who dislike dancing tango in a close embrace and who dislike classic tango music for dancing tango.
And do they need to call their classes 'Argentine tango' to differentiate if from 'tango for export'? (You know, the tango danced at milongas outside Argentina)
Odd thing is, in Buenos Aires there are about 100 (just plain) 'milongas' per week where all classic tango music is played and people dance 'tango' (maybe 'tango de salon' to differentiate it from 'tango fantasia'). Perhaps it is too much to expect the rest of the tango world to follow Argentine standards.
What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor? I don't mean "I can zip around the floor with rapid and large movements and I will not collide with anyone" because this puts traditionalists into an unpleasant defensive driving mode (one foot on the break pedal, always looking in the mirrors). We don't enjoy playing tango police nearly as much as you think we do. We just want to dance in peace.
I believe we can have separate events and if we agree to label them without ambiguity, we can all respect the codes of the events we attend and tango milonguero and nuevo can both live in peace and respect each other, sort of a 'tango detente'. They will live in separate niches because they are different species of tango.
How about:
Tango milonguero dancers have 'traditional' milongas with 'all classic tango music'. The classes they teach are 'Argentine Tango'.
Nuevo dancers have 'alternative milongas' with a mix of classic tango, modern tango, nuevo tango, neotango, and non-tango music. The classes they teach are 'Nuevo Tango'.
If we had this truth in advertising, there should be a lot fewer conflicts.
Ron
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:51:46 -0400
From: macfroggy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
To: tango-l@mit.edu
It's all about the marketing.
There's a new ad in the tango magazines here for classes in "Tango Nuevo Milonguero" !!!
Now what in the heck is that?
I'm sure the phrase will attract folks who want to be on the "cutting edge" and/or perhaps to dance both traditional and nuevo.
I suppose the promoters want to appeal to everybody.
Was it that long ago when there was only "tango?"
cherie
https://tangocherie.blogspot.com
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:37:44 -0400
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
To: RonTango <rontango@rocketmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<ebb7980c0910270937k1752fbbel38dc366fd63192b6@mail.gmail.com>
> Nuevo dancers have 'alternative milongas' with a mix of classic tango, modern tango, nuevo tango, neotango, and non-tango music.
Now I want to know the definitions of "modern tango", "nuevo tango",
"neotango" and how they differ from each other.
Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:41:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
To: tango-l@mit.edu
let ?s see... definitions...
modern tango, Boedo, 1929. Why modern ? Because De Caro made an arrangement where his hornet violin, play a counterpoint to the bandoneon of Laurentz ..
nuevo tango , El negro Shicoba, 1867, made in Uruguay .the character described , who can be loose translated as the balck broom , was part of the dancing of candombe or candomble, the afroamerican dance . It has a different pattern of music, so later it was considered the first tango widely known , it is possible that many other music of those years could being played as candombe and was an evolution to tango . Sebastian Piana made an excellent compilation of songs and shoutings of street vendors on the street of Buenos Aires from 1810 onwards , writing it down into musical arrangementes. Although they are no tangos as we considered it now, two centuries later , definitely , El negro Shicoba, have a different music, nuevo.
neotango:maybe on 1897, when Rosendo Mendizabal composed el Entrerriano, using a piano, who was something completely different from the musical instruments used before.
I can keep going backwards to the big bang and the theory the explosion sounded in a 2 x 4 rhytm beating :)
alberto
--- El mar 27-oct-09, Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com> escribi?:
> De: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
> Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
> Para: "RonTango" <rontango@rocketmail.com>
> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
> Fecha: martes, 27 de octubre de 2009, 2:37 pm
> > Nuevo dancers have 'alternative
> milongas' with a mix of classic tango, modern tango, nuevo
> tango, neotango, and non-tango music.
>
> Now I want to know the definitions of "modern tango",
> "nuevo tango",
> "neotango" and how they differ from each other.
>
> Sergey
> May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
> )
>
Yahoo! Cocina
Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
--- On Tue, 10/27/09, RonTango <rontango@rocketmail.com> wrote:
What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor? I don't mean "I can zip around the floor with rapid and large movements and I will not collide with anyone" because this puts traditionalists into an unpleasant defensive driving mode (one foot on the break pedal, always looking in the mirrors). We don't enjoy playing tango police nearly as much as you think we do. We just want to dance in peace.
~~~
Honestly, I don't understand this not being able to set the tone of the milonga or develop a reputation such that standards of behavior are not known. I really don't. Certainly not up to the point that it feels as if one is trying to keep people away.
I've never had a problem like this. Every once in a while (once a year, perhaps), I'll have to approach someone or their teacher about a navigation issue, but that's it. Local teachers talk about the line of dance, but we don't typically need to do special classes or workshops on navigation. I don't feel a need to separate out people who do social nuevo steps at our local milongas.
Milongas using Golden Age music are simply "milongas". Milongas using alternative music are "alternative milongas".
Perhaps the approach should not be that it is the "other people" that is the problem. Perhaps the approach should focus on what the milonga organizer stands for, what his/her image needs to be, and that should be strong enough on its own. I mean, would you dress in torn jeans and a t-shirt when you go into a BMW showroom?
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 07:59:04 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
>What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their
>milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and
>generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor?
It would be good as part of educating what traditionalists and nuevoists
(sic?) want is to advertise what you are seeking to attain. Just saying it
is "Tango milonguero" or "classical tango music" will not on its own create
the sort of atmosphere you want. However, "alternative milongas" says very
clearly to everyone what is allowed I think.
>Tango milonguero dancers have 'traditional' milongas with 'all classic
>tango music'. The classes they teach are 'Argentine Tango'.
I see a problem with this. A majority of tangoists are not Argentine, do not
tango in Argentina on a regular basis and some never go. They are
influenced on what happens around their local city. 90% of the tango
workshops I have gone to in Australia have taught nuevo elements. I had a
quick look at the Berlin and Montreal tango festivals and their programs had
a lot of nuevo. Even Denver had a "Nuevo milonguero classics(?!!!)"
workshop. So the majority of the worlds tango dancers believe that nuevo
moves are OK at *any* milonga is what I am proposing.
Previously, in all seriousness I said milonga hosts/organisers/clubs should
set-up a sandwich board outside the door on what "codes" are to be respected
at their milongas. Alternative ways to educate (promotion/"truth in
advertising"/image) the vast majority of tango dancers outside Argentina and
who never read this list (actually how many subscribe to this list are
there: 1000?) can be thought of, like reminders in newsletters, sheets of
paper on the tables etc. It will take time, but eventually there will be an
understanding of what is expected in each tango milonga outside BsAs.
People will then vote with their feet on whether they want to go to certain
milongas that promotes "older style tango" keeping feet on the floor etc.
Some milongas will die as people decide the music and image does not agree
them, but the as long as the remaining people are having fun, that is OK.
Fair enough?
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:13:42 -0300
From: "Brian Dunn" <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Detente
--- On Tue, 10/27/09, RonTango <rontango@rocketmail.com> wrote:
What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their
milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and
generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor?... We don't
enjoy playing tango police nearly as much as you think we do. We just want
to dance in peace.
~~~
Trini wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand this not being able to set the tone of the
milonga or develop a reputation such that standards of behavior are not
known. I really don't. Certainly not up to the point that it feels as if
one is trying to keep people away...
I've never had a problem like this...I don't feel a need to separate out
people who do social nuevo steps at our local milongas...Perhaps the
approach should focus on what the milonga organizer stands for, what his/her
image needs to be, and that should be strong enough on its own...
<<<
As much as I might agree with Trini, clearly Ron perceives a problem, a
conflict in need of resolution. So if we take his question at face value:
"What do traditionalists need to do?..." - we might refer to strategies used
in the past at milongas in Buenos Aires to control attendees' behavior.
I once saw a sign posted at the El Arranque afternoon milonga, mentioning a
dress code requiring slacks for men. Some Buenos Aires milongas back in the
last century would have signs saying (roughly translated) "Cortes and
Quebradas prohibited" (cortes and quebradas were tango moves that were
considered scandalous by some at the time, and unfit for nice girls to have
to endure at a dance).
So one approach might be to pick some "nuevo" moves or inconsiderate
behaviors that from the organizer's perspective cause problems to other
dancers, and prohibit them with a sign near the door, where the money will
be taken. To avoid misunderstanding, perhaps include in the sign some
photos showing the prohibited moves and behaviors. If necessary, offenders
could simply be offered a refund of the entrada and requested to leave - not
fun, I know, but probably only necessary once or twice before word gets
around a relatively small tango community.
I would think that a simple and obvious step like this would go a very long
way to directly solving the problem as it's defined here.
On the other hand, milongas (and tango communities in general) are social
networks whose collective behavior can be very difficult to predict. Here's
a cautionary note concerning such direct action (and its unforeseen
consequences):
"You make what you defend against, and by
Your own defense against it is it real
And inescapable..."
- A Course in Miracles
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
