4756 types of valses?
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:40:56 -0800
From: "anfractuoso anfractuoso" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] types of valses?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600702221440wed594d1p92efafd58a89e2f1@mail.gmail.com>
Hello everybody,
I hope there is some interest in this, more musical, type of a question. I
did try to search the archives on this subject but could not find anything
useful.
How many types (sub-classes) of vals exist in tango and how do they differ
>from each other?
For example, there is "vals boston". What is it in terms of what is
different from a regular vals?
Some other are more obvious - e.g. "vals viennese" (my designation) is a
tango vals that emulates a viennese waltz in certain characteristic
features. Examples exist by the Canaro and Rodriguez orchestras.
I am interested in real sub-classes of vals that one can identify based on
systematic features, and I am also interested in the different sub-classes
as labelled on sheet music. What I mean by this distinction is that
sometimes the sheet music labels do not mean anything different, sometimes
they do.
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:22:43 -0700
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] types of valses?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<9fb1555a0702221822o264ee8a1k1424f229c0de7a5c@mail.gmail.com>
Most people would not consider a Boston to be part of tango and the
Waldteufel-waltzes Canaro recorded are really a novelty. I've never heard
them played at a milonga. Rodriguez recorded EVERYTHING, so he does not
represent a straight lineage of tango.
To the Vals and Vals-Boston, you can add Mazurka, Java and Redova. All are
3/4.
I have some Vals-Rancheras that are 3/4 and some that are 4/4 (so then is it
still a waltz or is it a bolero?) Some switch between 3/4 and 4/4.
The answer to your question is: You know it when you hear it.
-Kinda like the difference between contemporary zydeco and contemporary
cajun. You can't define it in terms of instrumentation or score but you hear
the difference immediately.
Neil
On 2/22/07, anfractuoso anfractuoso <anfractuoso@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello everybody,
>
> I hope there is some interest in this, more musical, type of a question. I
> did try to search the archives on this subject but could not find anything
> useful.
>
> How many types (sub-classes) of vals exist in tango and how do they differ
> from each other?
>
> For example, there is "vals boston". What is it in terms of what is
> different from a regular vals?
>
> Some other are more obvious - e.g. "vals viennese" (my designation) is a
> tango vals that emulates a viennese waltz in certain characteristic
> features. Examples exist by the Canaro and Rodriguez orchestras.
>
> I am interested in real sub-classes of vals that one can identify based on
> systematic features, and I am also interested in the different sub-classes
> as labelled on sheet music. What I mean by this distinction is that
> sometimes the sheet music labels do not mean anything different, sometimes
> they do.
>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:19:34 -0800
From: "anfractuoso anfractuoso" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] types of valses?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600702222019s28ae7f44le4588ca48803c77c@mail.gmail.com>
Thank you for your reply, very interesting.
However I see now that maybe I should have made it clear that I don't
really have a problem identifying vals rhythm patterns. What I label
as a 'vals' commonly is written in 3/4 and has an accent only on the
first quarter note in each measure.
My question was about the actual features of a vals musical form that
are different between the different designations of vals. Time
signature is the most basic, as is rhythm pattern and tempo (these
three would likely be the same for all vals subclasses); others could
be characteristic legati or staccati of a particular instrument, or a
particular shape and time flow of a musical phrase, or a
characteristic beginning and/or ending, etc. etc. My other question
was how many different vals designations do you guys know or have
heard of?
It might have been better to start with an example. The superstar of a
tango vals called "Desde El Alma" is given as a 'Vals Boston' - anyone
know why? What makes it so?
I don't know what Java and Redova are, but mazurka does not have a
vals rhythm pattern despite having a 3/4 time signature because the
accent there is either on the second or third quarter note in a
measure.
Rancheras also are not really valses as they have what feels like all
three quarter notes accentuated and are much slower. In my opinion
anyway.
Cheers!
On 2/22/07, Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com> wrote:
> Most people would not consider a Boston to be part of tango and the
> Waldteufel-waltzes Canaro recorded are really a novelty. I've never heard
> them played at a milonga. Rodriguez recorded EVERYTHING, so he does not
> represent a straight lineage of tango.
>
> To the Vals and Vals-Boston, you can add Mazurka, Java and Redova. All are
> 3/4.
>
> I have some Vals-Rancheras that are 3/4 and some that are 4/4 (so then is it
> still a waltz or is it a bolero?) Some switch between 3/4 and 4/4.
>
> The answer to your question is: You know it when you hear it.
>
> -Kinda like the difference between contemporary zydeco and contemporary
> cajun. You can't define it in terms of instrumentation or score but you hear
> the difference immediately.
>
> Neil
>
> On 2/22/07, anfractuoso anfractuoso <anfractuoso@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> > I hope there is some interest in this, more musical, type of a question. I
> > did try to search the archives on this subject but could not find anything
> > useful.
> >
> > How many types (sub-classes) of vals exist in tango and how do they differ
> > from each other?
> >
> > For example, there is "vals boston". What is it in terms of what is
> > different from a regular vals?
> >
> > Some other are more obvious - e.g. "vals viennese" (my designation) is a
> > tango vals that emulates a viennese waltz in certain characteristic
> > features. Examples exist by the Canaro and Rodriguez orchestras.
> >
> > I am interested in real sub-classes of vals that one can identify based on
> > systematic features, and I am also interested in the different sub-classes
> > as labelled on sheet music. What I mean by this distinction is that
> > sometimes the sheet music labels do not mean anything different, sometimes
> > they do.
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:34:38 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] types of valses?
To: anfractuoso anfractuoso <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
A friend was doing some research and sent me this which happens to
explain the 'boston style" vals you mentioned...
I had not been aware of such a designation...but it is explained in the
5th section below, from planet tango...
(what I am amzed at is Senorita Rosita Melo wrote the music for this
classic queen of vals when she was 14 years old!)
I.
The making of Desde El Alma
1159 4
1159 5 by Alberto Paz
1159 6 Edited by Valorie Hart
1159 7
1159 8 Rosita Melo was born in Uruguay in 1903 but she lived in
Argentina since 1906. She wrote the music for Desde El Alma, a
Boston-style vals, at age 14 in 1917. In 1922 she married poet Victor
Piuma Velez who wrote the first set of lyrics for Desde El Alma.
1159 9 It was a theme dedicated to the love of a mother. In 1948,
Homero Manzi called to tell them that he was interested in including the
song in his movie Pobre mi madre querida, but with different lyrics as
demanded by the movie script.
1159 10 This would not affect the copyright ownership of the song.
Piuma Velez and Rosita Melo opposed the idea, and requested that if
Manzi wrote new lyrics, Piuma Velez's name should be included as co-author.
1159 11 Manzi agreed, the lyrics became famous and the vals,
already a classic became universally famous.
1159 12 The Boston-vals is a style originated in the city of that
name in the United States. It is associated with the piano and its
characteristic is that the player does not mark the rhythm with the left
hand as it is customary with that instrument.
1159 13 The rhythm is marked witht he right hand along with the
melody. The left hand only marks the first note of the beat, the bass.
anfractuoso anfractuoso wrote:
>Thank you for your reply, very interesting.
>
>However I see now that maybe I should have made it clear that I don't
>really have a problem identifying vals rhythm patterns. What I label
>as a 'vals' commonly is written in 3/4 and has an accent only on the
>first quarter note in each measure.
>
>My question was about the actual features of a vals musical form that
>are different between the different designations of vals. Time
>signature is the most basic, as is rhythm pattern and tempo (these
>three would likely be the same for all vals subclasses); others could
>be characteristic legati or staccati of a particular instrument, or a
>particular shape and time flow of a musical phrase, or a
>characteristic beginning and/or ending, etc. etc. My other question
>was how many different vals designations do you guys know or have
>heard of?
>
>It might have been better to start with an example. The superstar of a
>tango vals called "Desde El Alma" is given as a 'Vals Boston' - anyone
>know why? What makes it so?
>
>I don't know what Java and Redova are, but mazurka does not have a
>vals rhythm pattern despite having a 3/4 time signature because the
>accent there is either on the second or third quarter note in a
>measure.
>
>Rancheras also are not really valses as they have what feels like all
>three quarter notes accentuated and are much slower. In my opinion
>anyway.
>
>Cheers!
>
>
>On 2/22/07, Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Most people would not consider a Boston to be part of tango and the
>>Waldteufel-waltzes Canaro recorded are really a novelty. I've never heard
>>them played at a milonga. Rodriguez recorded EVERYTHING, so he does not
>>represent a straight lineage of tango.
>>
>>To the Vals and Vals-Boston, you can add Mazurka, Java and Redova. All are
>>3/4.
>>
>>I have some Vals-Rancheras that are 3/4 and some that are 4/4 (so then is it
>>still a waltz or is it a bolero?) Some switch between 3/4 and 4/4.
>>
>>The answer to your question is: You know it when you hear it.
>>
>>-Kinda like the difference between contemporary zydeco and contemporary
>>cajun. You can't define it in terms of instrumentation or score but you hear
>>the difference immediately.
>>
>>Neil
>>
>>On 2/22/07, anfractuoso anfractuoso <anfractuoso@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello everybody,
>>>
>>>I hope there is some interest in this, more musical, type of a question. I
>>>did try to search the archives on this subject but could not find anything
>>>useful.
>>>
>>>How many types (sub-classes) of vals exist in tango and how do they differ
>>>>from each other?
>>>
>>>For example, there is "vals boston". What is it in terms of what is
>>>different from a regular vals?
>>>
>>>Some other are more obvious - e.g. "vals viennese" (my designation) is a
>>>tango vals that emulates a viennese waltz in certain characteristic
>>>features. Examples exist by the Canaro and Rodriguez orchestras.
>>>
>>>I am interested in real sub-classes of vals that one can identify based on
>>>systematic features, and I am also interested in the different sub-classes
>>>as labelled on sheet music. What I mean by this distinction is that
>>>sometimes the sheet music labels do not mean anything different, sometimes
>>>they do.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:51:33 -0700
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] types of valses?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<9fb1555a0702222051j529b0a65w5c2a3da19a5b91d7@mail.gmail.com>
Check out the great Musette artists like Gus Viseur, Tony Murena, Emile
Vacher and Menard Ferrero from the mid-20 to the late 30s. They play Valse,
Valse-Boston, Java and Mazurka all with accent on the first.
Racheras come in 2/4 3/4 and 4/4. I have recordings of 4/4 songs that are
designated by the artist as 'Vals-Ranchera'. The score is very different
>from a Ranchera-Bolero with the bajo-sexto being very syncopated, something
that could explain why they call it a waltz.
The artists are not always the most meticulous when it comes to analysing
what they do. -Thank god.
Neil
On 2/22/07, anfractuoso anfractuoso <anfractuoso@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you for your reply, very interesting.
>
> However I see now that maybe I should have made it clear that I don't
> really have a problem identifying vals rhythm patterns. What I label
> as a 'vals' commonly is written in 3/4 and has an accent only on the
> first quarter note in each measure.
>
> My question was about the actual features of a vals musical form that
> are different between the different designations of vals. Time
> signature is the most basic, as is rhythm pattern and tempo (these
> three would likely be the same for all vals subclasses); others could
> be characteristic legati or staccati of a particular instrument, or a
> particular shape and time flow of a musical phrase, or a
> characteristic beginning and/or ending, etc. etc. My other question
> was how many different vals designations do you guys know or have
> heard of?
>
> It might have been better to start with an example. The superstar of a
> tango vals called "Desde El Alma" is given as a 'Vals Boston' - anyone
> know why? What makes it so?
>
> I don't know what Java and Redova are, but mazurka does not have a
> vals rhythm pattern despite having a 3/4 time signature because the
> accent there is either on the second or third quarter note in a
> measure.
>
> Rancheras also are not really valses as they have what feels like all
> three quarter notes accentuated and are much slower. In my opinion
> anyway.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> On 2/22/07, Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Most people would not consider a Boston to be part of tango and the
> > Waldteufel-waltzes Canaro recorded are really a novelty. I've never
> heard
> > them played at a milonga. Rodriguez recorded EVERYTHING, so he does not
> > represent a straight lineage of tango.
> >
> > To the Vals and Vals-Boston, you can add Mazurka, Java and Redova. All
> are
> > 3/4.
> >
> > I have some Vals-Rancheras that are 3/4 and some that are 4/4 (so then
> is it
> > still a waltz or is it a bolero?) Some switch between 3/4 and 4/4.
> >
> > The answer to your question is: You know it when you hear it.
> >
> > -Kinda like the difference between contemporary zydeco and contemporary
> > cajun. You can't define it in terms of instrumentation or score but you
> hear
> > the difference immediately.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > On 2/22/07, anfractuoso anfractuoso <anfractuoso@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello everybody,
> > >
> > > I hope there is some interest in this, more musical, type of a
> question. I
> > > did try to search the archives on this subject but could not find
> anything
> > > useful.
> > >
> > > How many types (sub-classes) of vals exist in tango and how do they
> differ
> > > from each other?
> > >
> > > For example, there is "vals boston". What is it in terms of what is
> > > different from a regular vals?
> > >
> > > Some other are more obvious - e.g. "vals viennese" (my designation) is
> a
> > > tango vals that emulates a viennese waltz in certain characteristic
> > > features. Examples exist by the Canaro and Rodriguez orchestras.
> > >
> > > I am interested in real sub-classes of vals that one can identify
> based on
> > > systematic features, and I am also interested in the different
> sub-classes
> > > as labelled on sheet music. What I mean by this distinction is that
> > > sometimes the sheet music labels do not mean anything different,
> sometimes
> > > they do.
>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:01:30 -0800
From: "anfractuoso anfractuoso" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] types of valses?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600702230801wb48be21rde46a5707117a90c@mail.gmail.com>
Ah, thank you!! That's exactly what I was hoping for. I can't believe
I missed that description of a boston style vals..
By the way, some of the dates are wrong on the excerpt on Rosita Melo
you quoted. She was indeed 14 when she composed this famous vals.
However this happened in 1911, not 1917. She was born in Uruguay to
Italian parents in 1897, not 1903, and emigrated to Argentina around
1899 when she was two years old (not in 1906).
Cheers
On 2/22/07, Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> A friend was doing some research and sent me this which happens to explain the 'boston style" vals you mentioned...
> I had not been aware of such a designation...but it is explained in the 5th section below, from planet tango...
> (what I am amzed at is Senorita Rosita Melo wrote the music for this classic queen of vals when she was 14 years old!)
> I.
>
>
>
>
> The making of Desde El Alma
> 1159 4
> 1159 5 by Alberto Paz
> 1159 6 Edited by Valorie Hart
> 1159 7
> 1159 8 Rosita Melo was born in Uruguay in 1903 but she lived in Argentina since 1906. She wrote the music for Desde El Alma, a Boston-style vals, at age 14 in 1917. In 1922 she married poet Victor Piuma Velez who wrote the first set of lyrics for Desde El Alma.
> 1159 9 It was a theme dedicated to the love of a mother. In 1948, Homero Manzi called to tell them that he was interested in including the song in his movie Pobre mi madre querida, but with different lyrics as demanded by the movie script.
> 1159 10 This would not affect the copyright ownership of the song. Piuma Velez and Rosita Melo opposed the idea, and requested that if Manzi wrote new lyrics, Piuma Velez's name should be included as co-author.
> 1159 11 Manzi agreed, the lyrics became famous and the vals, already a classic became universally famous.
> 1159 12 The Boston-vals is a style originated in the city of that name in the United States. It is associated with the piano and its characteristic is that the player does not mark the rhythm with the left hand as it is customary with that instrument.
> 1159 13 The rhythm is marked witht he right hand along with the melody. The left hand only marks the first note of the beat, the bass.
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:06:03 -0800
From: "anfractuoso anfractuoso" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] types of valses?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600702230806i37b896dfk8d7c3e7cc0eca92e@mail.gmail.com>
Thank you very much, that's great info I will try to follow up on.
I did know that what the artists designate not always corresponds to a
systematic classification of musical forms based on real differences
(or maybe that's putting it mildly).
Cheers
On 2/22/07, Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com> wrote:
> Check out the great Musette artists like Gus Viseur, Tony Murena, Emile
> Vacher and Menard Ferrero from the mid-20 to the late 30s. They play Valse,
> Valse-Boston, Java and Mazurka all with accent on the first.
>
> Racheras come in 2/4 3/4 and 4/4. I have recordings of 4/4 songs that are
> designated by the artist as 'Vals-Ranchera'. The score is very different
> from a Ranchera-Bolero with the bajo-sexto being very syncopated, something
> that could explain why they call it a waltz.
>
> The artists are not always the most meticulous when it comes to analysing
> what they do. -Thank god.
>
> Neil
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:48:41 -0000
From: "John Ward" <johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] types of valses?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Smithsonian Folkways issued an interesting CD: "Bandoneon Pure: Dances of
Uruguay" by Rene Martino Rivero (who bears a startling resemblance to
British actor Ricky Gervais). On it are these valses:
Corazon de oro (vals oriental)
La loca de amor (vals criollo)
Desde el alma (vals boston)
Other subdivisions are:
El choclo (tango criollo)
Mirinaque (milonga uruguaya)
Vieja morena (pasodoble academico)
Taquito militar (milonga orillera)
Camino al don (foxtrot cancion)
With the CD is an 80 page booklet describing the bandoneon and the music in
great detail. I quote:
The vals oriental as a genre continued the tradition of the cielito of the
Banda Oriental del Uruguay (Banda or Republica Oriental del Uruguay is the
complete name of the state) . . . the different varieties of vals - vals
oriental, vals criollo, vals boston, and vals porteno - held an important
part in [Francisco Canaro's] life.
John Ward
Bristol, UK
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:40:08 -0800
From: "anfractuoso anfractuoso" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] types of valses?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600702231340m7998ed08p2c07489e2313ec9b@mail.gmail.com>
Hello,
Thank you for that!
Vals oriental seems to have more of a geographical connotation rather
than musical, but I will follow up on that. It looks like 'Oriental'
in those days simply meant, anywhere in the world, that something came
>from the neighbours to the east of you - in this case Uruguay from the
viewpoint of Argentina/Buenos Aires.
I wonder about vals criollo versus vals porteno... (not the meaning,
but if there are musical differences)
I am also reminded of a lot of Rodriguez valses that have this
charming almost childish simplicity, yet sweetness, to them. They
might have instruments playing largely in unison, and also vocal
'choir' refrain done in unison in the unpretensious way a group of
children might sound like. I am thinking that these valses deserve a
label like folksy or country. I wonder if these would be the
equivalent of 'vals criollo'?
Cheers
On 2/23/07, John Ward <johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>[...]
> The vals oriental as a genre continued the tradition of the cielito of the
> Banda Oriental del Uruguay (Banda or Republica Oriental del Uruguay is the
> complete name of the state) . . . the different varieties of vals - vals
> oriental, vals criollo, vals boston, and vals porteno - held an important
> part in [Francisco Canaro's] life.
>
> John Ward
> Bristol, UK
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 06:56:43 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] types of valses?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Thanks for pointing us to this--I've been looking for a CD of vals....
John Ward wrote:
> Smithsonian Folkways issued an interesting CD: "Bandoneon Pure: Dances of
> Uruguay" by Rene Martino Rivero (who bears a startling resemblance to
> British actor Ricky Gervais). On it are these valses:
>
> Corazon de oro (vals oriental)
> La loca de amor (vals criollo)
> Desde el alma (vals boston)
>
> Other subdivisions are:
>
> El choclo (tango criollo)
> Mirinaque (milonga uruguaya)
> Vieja morena (pasodoble academico)
> Taquito militar (milonga orillera)
> Camino al don (foxtrot cancion)
>
> With the CD is an 80 page booklet describing the bandoneon and the music in
> great detail. I quote:
>
> The vals oriental as a genre continued the tradition of the cielito of the
> Banda Oriental del Uruguay (Banda or Republica Oriental del Uruguay is the
> complete name of the state) . . . the different varieties of vals - vals
> oriental, vals criollo, vals boston, and vals porteno - held an important
> part in [Francisco Canaro's] life.
>
> John Ward
> Bristol, UK
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
business, technology, entertainment and media law
"practical legal solutions for creative people"
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://www.arborlaw.com
"When grain is made into refined white flour, more than 30
essential nutrients are largely removed. Only four of those
nutrients are added back in a process called "enrichment."
Using this same logic, if a person were robbed of 30 dollars
and the thief then returned 4 dollars to his victim for cab
fare home, then that person should be considered "enriched"
by 4 dollars, not robbed of 26." -- Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.
Updates in business, technology, entertainment and media law
a r b o r l a w -- https://www.arborlaw.com/blog/
