92 walking

ARTICLE INDEX

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:17:51 -0700
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: walking

There's been considerable traffic about walking, in particular about
walking on the outside or inside edges of shoes. I come down strongly on
walking on the outside edge -- and here's why.

When we walk, our weight shifts to the outside edge of the shoe. When we
put our weight on the right foot, our weight rolls to the right edge of
the shoe. When we put our weight on the left foot, our weight rolls to
the left edge of the shoe. If we walk with our feet pointed in (hereafter
called "pigeon toed"), we stand a good chance (no pun intended) of losing
our balance because we're not grounded. If the foot is pointed outwards,
we are better able to maintain our balance. The outside edge will absorb
our weight that rolls outwardly.

Now think of this for a moment. I know nothing about women's shoes
(except they look painful to walk in) but I know about men's shoes. When
I have to get new heels, I notice that they aren't evenly worn out. One
side is higher than the other because of uneven wear. The uneven wear
comes from weight going to the outside edge.

By walking with my feet pointed outwards, I have better balance, which is
crucial for leading giros and molinetes. I don't want to topple over,
especially if I'm the center for turns. I'll pull the woman off balance.

To correct this problem, I had to consciously change my stance, starting
with standing in the elevator with my feet pointed out. Next came walking
to work from Union Station with my feet pointed out. To be good, I had no
choice but to change. At my age, CHANGE ISN'T EASY. (Don't even think of
asking how old!!)

I hope this message gives a better understanding of why walking with feet
pointed out is superior to walking pigeon toed .

Michael Ditkoff
Living in Washington, DC with flat feet

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:17:32 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: walking

Howdy, Michael!

I was going to send this to you privately, but decided to copy
it to the list...

> I hope this message gives a better understanding of why walking with feet
> pointed out is superior to walking pigeon toed.

Well, in terms only of tango walking, no - (bio)mechanical arguments
don't convince me. This is not to say that I disagree with you. I'm
not saying if I agree or disagree.

But to the point: isn't the first consideration
of a *practiced* dancer an artistic or aesthetic one, rather than a
mechanical one? Not that they are unrelated, but it seems to me
that the reason for a technique's existence is the aesthetic it
permits. Good tango dancers simply have few issues with balance.
Tango rarely challenges their equilibrium. Armando O., for example,
can dance almost any tango step on only the heels of his shoe, never
touching the sole. That's difficult! Armando and many others have
balance to burn. I think each of us should practice technique with
an open mind to the expressive (Stylistic, ala Tom S.?) possibilities.

The feet of a tango dancer can speak the most detailed and subtle
parts of the dance, like the hands of a hula dancer. Why else make
such a fuss about the details of foot placement - on and on? The
aesthetic comes first. If not now, then after more practice. So,
why limit ourselves to penguins or pigeons? With practice, the rules
will change and possibilities expand.

In my opinion, once you can step however you want, you should make
clean, beautiful steps *however you want*. Not simply one style or
another, but every way the music asks.

Best regards,

Frank in Minneapolis
(where the current weather feels just like D.C.!)

Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:20:16 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: walking

Michael Ditkoff wrote:

>When we walk, our weight shifts to the outside edge of the shoe.

As I see it, When one walks heel first with the foot turned out, the weight
initially lands on the outside of the heel and shifts toward the inside of
the big toe as the foot is rolled forward to prepare it to lift for the
next step. If one walks toe first with the foot turned out, the weight
lands seems to land uniformly across the front of the foot, shifts back to
the heel and then rolls forward to the inside of the big toe as the foot is
prepared for lifting.

--Steve de Tejas

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:06:05 -0300
From: SMC Administracion <adm@SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: keeping to the walking

Dear friends from Tango list

Yesterday I visited Cori & Omar , Tango teachers , here in Buenos Aires.
This was one of the physical encounters within members of this list ,
something that is nice to experience when is possible.

Omar make me dance with Cori, and later, as it was in the beginning of
tango, he make me lead him in woman role, and the subject of walking arise
inmediately.

"Alberto " he told me ," you are walking , but remember that the tango
walking had a meaning. There is no need to run , you have to walk each step
, and also your steps need to be neat , this is part of the elegance of this
dancing . Once you have learn to walk , you will keep this walking with you
, wherever you are , whomever you are dancing. It is your little country
that you bring with you."

We keep practicing , and later on Omar told me " would you like to learn
figures or steps ?" .
And I told him" Omar, frankly speaking, I prefer to keep practicing walking
, once I have this issue achieved, everything will be easier " . We two
laugh, and he made his nice comment " Alberto, I can teach you about
walking, but you are the one that will dance in the end, and will put what
you have inside into your dancing, what you are will be what you dance ".

This comment makes me think a lot, about how we keep our steps,or our way to
dance, wherever and whenever we go. Today at the local newspaper La Nacion,
an article reproduce part of the acceptance speech from a rumanian writer in
the exile , Norman Manea, He received the Nonino Award , the maximum
literary prize of Italy. He talks about writing , but it looks also useful
for tango . This is part of his speech

" I delayed the decision to leave Romania because I was childlish enough to
cheat myself saying that I was not an inhabitant of a country but of a
language. I finally ended taking with me my language, mi home, like a snail.
It is still my child shelter , my site for survival.....
The exile is, increasingly , a sign of our time. Everywhere , people face
the contradiction between modernity - an outward whirlwind, cosmopolitan- ,
and the need ( or at least the nostalgie) -an inward whirlwind of
belonging-"

Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 06:27:30 -0500
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: keeping to the walking

Alberto Gesualdi wrote:

"Alberto " (Omar) he told me ," you are walking , but remember that the
tango walking had a meaning. There is no need to run , you have to walk
each step , and also your steps need to be neat , this is part of the
elegance of this dancing . "
Absolutely correct Alberto. I finally realized that dancing tango is NOT
like driving in the Indianapolis 500. There is NO prize to the tanguero
who makes the most number of laps around the room. If you can't walk, it
means you're lacking one or all of the following elements: axis, frame,
balance, and posture. Without all four, a man can't lead nor can a woman
follow.

Tango is not a dance of figures! It is a dance of connection, warmth, and
passion (at least for those who dance close embrace).

Michael Ditkoff
Recovering from his dream of moving to New York
after he read the New York Times real estate section

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 00:21:41 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Step technique, compadritos walking

> Tango walk
>
> The foot is extended (toes down), it lands on its toes not on the heel as

> is done in ball room dancing. In Argentine Tango as you are seen coming

you

> do not show the soles of your shoes. This way of walking represents the

way

> the compadritos used to walk in the street, it has deep historical,

cultural

> and stylistical roots.

Sergio, this is interesting. It is the first I hear about it. Now, why did
the compadritos walk like that ? It would facilitate sneaking, like a Ninja
silently sneaking through the night with a black scarf wrapped around his
face, ready to juimp any time, and balancing in case someone attacks him
from behind... Please explain the historical roots. I have heard that the
salsa step originated in pickers walking along the sugar cane plants in that
step, and I have wondered why only the tango has a walk like that.

Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:27:58 -0400
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango technique: Walking

There's been a lot of discussion on how to walk. Coming back from
vacation and catching up on my voluminous emails I might be repeating a
point already made and apologize if I am.

After you finish your step, your foot should be pointed out instead of
pointing in, called pigeon toed. It's easier to maintain balance with the
foot pointed out. If you try to pivot with the feet pointed in, there's
nothing to prevent you from tipping over (except clutching your partner,
which you shouldn't do). The outside edge will keep you grounded.

Since I mentioned pivots, I'll add that you should always bring your feet
together before pivoting. Otherwise, you won't be able to maintain your
axis because your weight will be spread over both feet instead of one
foot.

Michael
Recovering from two weeks of dancing on the QE2

Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:01:23 -0700
From: Andrew <andrew@ORCADIGITAL.COM>
Subject: teaching walking back ochos

I've been using a different technique for teaching back ochos to beginners than I've seen used in classes before, and thought I'd share =
it .. I've often gotten complete beginners in my drop-in pre-practica classes to lead what feel like fairly comfortable walking back ochos =
within the space of the one-hour class, and we only spend part of the time on these .. it seems like some of the beginning classes I had =
attended often took weeks in succession to get ochos cemented, and they sometimes came with associated bad habits, so this is one possible =
alternative. I think a lot of the "ease" comes in how the concept is broken down into two distinct, easier to grasp parts. The entrance/exit =
is completely common, and the same as most people use, it's just how it's conceptualized to the learner.

First, near the beginning of most of my classes, I'll have people use weight-changes in place, so they can get the feeling of a "together" =
weight change, and get comfortable using it with the rhythm.

Then, I teach walking forward on one side in cross-feet.
I'll have everyone line up behind me and take one step onto the same-side foot to make sure everyone's unambiguously on the same foot (I =
used to have people do a step to the side, but to suggest the idea that it is something to do as a variant of your normal walking, and not a =
separate "figure" I just have a forward step with the leader's left leg now). Then, have the leader change weight without the follow, back and =
forth between his/her feet. Then alternate that with "together" weight changes, to contrast them. I try to focus on the fact that though my =
lower-body is changing weight, my upper-body is staying in place, unmoving. As analogy, I've suggested holding a bowl that's about to =
fall up on a shelf, and having the cat run under your feet - you have to change weight, but the upper part of your body/arms/frame stay in the =
same place to hold the bowl in place and not let it fall .. not a very graceful analogy, perhaps someone can suggest something different. I've =
had people suggest that this seems like a follower "helping" move, or a code, or unled follower trick - that they feel you changing weight, but =
know what you're going to do and don't change weight .. either that or that the secret as a lead is to make the weight change so subtle that =
the follower doesn't notice it, and if you can't do that you can't do the move, so in order to suggest otherwise I'll a) bring my coteacher so =
that we're on the same foot together, then change weight "without" her by jumping, or stomping, from leg to leg, and still getting her to stay =
on the same foot - due to the fact that my focus on her weight is still on the same one of _her_ legs .. then (b) do this with the leaders, =
leading them into it, so they can feel this difference .. together vs without, and without subtle vs without obvious.

With the exception of trying this with each of the leaders, which I don't always do (if it's a small class I do), these actually don't take =
all that long to do together. That's the hard part for me as a teacher, and once that works the rest of it just comes automatically:

Then, I get everyone (following along with me) now to take that forward step with the left leg again, then take just one weight-change =
"without," so the leader's leg is now his/her right, and step forward. As I used the "walk in two ski tracks" analogy for normal walking, I now =
will suggest us walking in 3 ski tracks. Step forward a few times, then change weight "without" your follow again, and you're back to walking.

Once people have the hang of this, I have them take the outside step to the left of the follow (the 3rd track step), and follow it with an =
outside step to his/her right, then the original outside step to his/her left. Getting out of it being just the same as the walking in =
cross-feet exercise above. Here we are in comfortable walking ochos, in a style that also works comfortably for close-embrace!

For my one-hour classes, I usually spend the first half-hour doing basics, and the second half-hour on something a little more complicated. =
This fits quite comfortably into the second half hour, with a little room to spare, as long as the class isn't too huge. One of the =
advantages I've found with this is that it breaks it up into a) walking into cross step, then b) turnign that into ochos .. learning cross-step =
and ochos and a quick-step (as it's often taught) all in one step is a lot for a beginner to handle. Another advantage is that it provides =
another "move" for a beginner to use - walking forward in cross-step - as a part of the instruction, so without any extra time they've gotten =
two "moves." It also is an easy bridge into several other moves, which I'll teach if I have extra time - walking in cross-feet forward on the =
right side, walking backwards in cross-feet, and walking cross-foot drags. Another large advantage, I think, is that it gets people to =
think of them as essentially a forward walking step from the beginning, because it's taught as a variation of a forward (crossfoot) walk - not =
as a "turning" step, and thus the leaders don't start doing those huge shoulder/upper-body pivots with their lead to get the ochos .. they also =
don't start pushing and pulling as much when they're trying to get the follow to do that "pivot" - because they don't think about the pivot. =
All they're doing is walking forward, to one side and then the other of the follow, so it's a nice, comfortable, walking ocho, that also works =
comfortably for milonguero/close-embrace dancing and general social dancing. If you focus on the pivot in the instruction, all this =
unpleasant work from the lead goes into creating the follow pivot, which is generally unnecessary and uncomfortable.

Love to hear any comments or criticism .. this is just an approach that I found helped accelerate the teaching to beginners a lot for me, and =
hopefully might help other people trying out ideas for teaching beginners.

Andrew
(from Portland)

Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:06:43 +0200
From: Eero Olli <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
Subject: Re: teaching walking back ochos

I liked the idea of doing them from walking. I have to admit that I use
the pivot-step-pivot approach, which puts more requirements in teaching the
pivots. I find your idea of using the walk as a basis interesting, and I
will try your approach as soon as I have a chance. It sounds like it is
quicker, and better suited, when one does time to do the whole routine.

Here is how I teach ochos. It is not complete translation of my program,
but it has the the parts I hope you might find interesting. All in all, I
would plan for two to three hours, at a point when my students have already
danced 2-4 hours in a class:

PIVOT ALONE:
* First, everybody practices pivots while supporting them selves from a wall.
* We do exercises for finding one's axis in movement.
* Then we walk doing pivots in different angles.
* Do both forward walk and backward walk with pivots.

LEADING OF PIVOT:
Men are standing with their feet a shoulder width apart weight on both
feet. They stretch their arms straightforward and put their hands flat
together. Arms are kept stiff like a stick. Now they have to imagine that
the woman's axis is like a broomstick between their hands and they roll the
broomstick half turn right and left, by only rotating their upper body
around its own axis (or using their shoulders).

MEN PRACTICE ALONE:.
* ROLLING OF THE BROOMSTICK: Keep feet together. No
weightshifts. Emphasis keeping the broomstick in one place, even if its
'rolled' between hands. Watch out for men who are trying to do this by
bending their elbows, they are not using their upper body properly.

Rolling-of-the-broomstick-movement has to be separated from moving the
woman's axis, which would equal to her step. TWO WAYS TO MOVE THE BROOMSTICK:
* The men keep their hands in the same position, but now they turn their
front 90-degrees, which would equal to a step for a woman (around the
man). And possibly add a weight shift (without moving their feet). This
will be very useful for change of direction. And later I will come back to
this movement to do a simplified half-giro.
* The men keep their hands in the same position, but take a step
themselves. This will also move the women's axis and the women will have
to take a step.

PIVOT AND STEP COMBINATIONS TOGETHER:
So far we have done a) rotating of women's axis (the pivot). And b) moving
women's axis by change of his front or his step, which leads to her
step. I add one rule: Men have to use women's hip to aim, so that the
women will always take a clean front, back or side step. At this stage it
does not matter what kind of steps the men make.
* I just let them play for a while with different combinations they make up
themselves... People will soon figure out what is and what is not possible.

I find this very useful in terms of teaching followers to wait for the
step, and leaders to wait for the follower's hip to be position before any
step is lead.

It does of course require some 'cleaning up', in order to become nice
ochos. The best part so far is that students realize that everything is
possible, and ochos is just one variation among many possibilities.

After they know the stuff above, which takes an hour or little more to
teach they are ready to do back and forward ochos. However, then I need
only little time to do the ochos. You all know how to do ochos, so I will
not write any of it here.

There are a couple of exercises that I find useful for cleaning up ochos:

1) STRAIGHTEN UP: after a few ochos, straighten up the abrazo - turn
towards each other so that hips and shoulders are parallel. This will
probably change the couple's orientation in relation to the line of
dance. Does the couple need to turn to be back in line of dance? This
straightening up is crucial: dancers are not precise enough in what they
do, so they need a way to 'fix' what ever flaws in position, abrazo and
line of dance, they might have gotten themselves into.

2) CROSSED ARMS for better positions: Women need to find their place in
FRONT of the man. Cross the follower's arms: men let their arms hang
down. Women cross their own arms in front of them = Women's left hand
holds the man's left shoulder, and women's right hand holds the men's right
shoulder. This crossed shoulder grip makes it easier to relate the ocho to
a man's shoulder movements. * Do ocho back and ocho forward.

3) SPEED AND DEGREE OF PIVOTS:
I use car metaphors. The couple is the car, and leading a pivot is like
turning the steering wheel. For a 90-degree turn, you do not want to turn
the steering wheel 90 degrees. Give just a little turn, and wait until the
car is turned.
= Men have to allow time for the women to turn her hips. When the hips are
turned enough stop leading the pivot -- straighten up and/or take a step.
If the men want a quick pivot, the pivot signal must be quick.
If the men want a large degree of pivot, they either give a large signal
(and complete it quickly) or they give a small signal (and wait longer).
* Let the students experiment

4) OCHO VARIATIONS:
* Ochos with small pivots (like 30-degrees) is a walk forward for the man.
* Ochos with large pivots (like 180-degrees, but usually the women are too
stiff and not able to do these without loosing contact with partner.)
Respect the woman's physical limits, and always walk in the direction her
hip is pointing at. Quality of Abrazo has higher priority than mans wish to
do a certain type of ocho.
* Ochos with different combinations of pivot.
* Change entrances and exits: after a 'straighten up' the man can take a
step in any direction. (Sometimes necessary to get back into the line of
dance)

Students are bevildered after this, because there are so many options and
anything seems to be possible. It will take some time for them to get
comfortable with more than just a few options. Therefore, large parts of
the rest of the beginners class is spendt dansing and getting secure.

I think that often men are 'poorer' than women in a beginners class. This
approach gives women enough challenges to make participation interesting.
They have all the time be ready to do anything, which forces them to be
patient, and wait for the lead, because they realize from the very
beginning that a pivot, does not equal an ocho.

Best,
eero

Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:11:37 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: human words for human beings (was: teaching walking back ochos)

> ski tracks. Step forward a few times, then change
> weight "without" your follow again, and you're back
> to walking.

Not to criticize Andrew in particular (especially
since I think his description of how to teach the lead
for back ochos is well-thought out and may well be
very good - have to try it). But I am always
disconcerted to read postings on this list where one
partner is called the "leader" and the other the
"follow." The person leading is a "leader"; the
person following is a "follower"; the act of leading
is the "lead" (or mark). I suppose if "follow" were
anything it would be the act of following. But it is
not a word for a human being.

I know it's probably local slang in some places, and I
know that language is flexible. (I also know that
quibbling about words leads to long boring posts from
the self-righteous, and I hope I am not one of them -
but you never can tell...) But this usage makes me
think about how much tango is thought of in terms of
the leaders, how much instruction is directed at the
leaders, and how often the followers become nameless,
faceless pieces of equipment - necessary for the
dance, but not quite participants. I'm afraid calling
people "follows" reinforces the inequity.

I have followed for several years, during which time I
have been acutely aware of periods of instruction and
dance in which my role could practically have been
fulfilled by an inflatable doll for all the difference
it made to the instructor or the leader. I am aware
of adopting the same mindset sometimes when I am
working on the lead - and it doesn't make me feel good
about myself. But there it is. I am trying to
overcome this mindset, and I invite others to do so
also. First item on the agenda: let's call humans by
words that refer to active beings, rather than
abstract concepts.

Cheers!
Marisa

Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:49:11 -0700
From: Andrew <andrew@ORCADIGITAL.COM>
Subject: Re: human words for human beings (was: teaching walking back ochos)

I understand and empathize with your suggestion, and don't want to start a
long thread on pc speech, but I think there are also some reasons to use
this phrasing, and as some sort of terminology has to be used in a lot of
the posts to any tango list, thus making this subject fairly relevant, it
seems like it might be alright to post an alternative viewpoint to the list
in reply.

I used the terms pretty intentionally, but perhaps with a different
"reading" than you're taking from them. The way I usually see these posts
or articles written refer to the man and the woman - the man does this, the
woman does that .. I find this somewhat troubling due to the fact that
several of my favorite leads are women, and that I like to follow. As such,
I need some way of referring to the dance roles with consistent gender
neutrality. If I'm referring to people off the floor, and what they're
doing, I would not refer to them by using role names. However, if - as
another example - I am referring to employees in my company, and am
referring to company business, I may be likely - without dehumanizing
anyone - to refer to to people by the names of their roles/positions - the
engineer will do this, the tech writer will work with the support person to
do that, the marketing people will handle this part of the campaign while
the CEO and VP Finance will take care of this. I, the janitor, will take
care of the coffee spill .. ;)

Anyhow, within a framework of a dance discussion, in a dance that at it's
core involves a distinct separation of roles between the lead and follow -
this is not to say there is a difference in importance between the roles,
nor have I implied such - even when the roles are switched, or the lead is
swapped back and forth, there is always this lead and follow aspect to the
dance - providing detailed descriptions of what the (equal!) partners are
doing, and doing so without gender specificity, suggests either referring to
"lead" and "follow" - referring only to the roles within the role of the
dance - or to constantly saying "the one who leads does this, then the one
who follows does that, then the one who leads takes the one who follows
around until the one who leads can ... " etc etc, which is unduly clunky for
my compositional comfort.

It also seems like suggesting that saying that this phrasing dehumanizes the
one who follows, but not mentioning the lead, suggests that there is
something inherently "less" about the follow role, which I disagree with ..
the follow role, the follow, is in every way equal in importance to that of
the lead - there is no "inequity" between a lead and a follow role for me,
as you suggest .. it (the follow role) is a consensual, powerful role, and
referring to someone as a "follow" within the confines of step descriptions
shouldn't imply anything more negative than referring to someone as "lead"
within them.

Anyhow, I do understand your concerns, but I think this syntax also has some
advantages, and following does not seem like a negative role to me ..
particularly as I enjoy following, and don't mind being referred to as a
follow for descriptive purposes while I am doing so. I hope we can agree to
disagree. :) I'd also wholeheartedly agree with part of your concern,
which is that the follow / one who follows often does get taken for granted
and treated like a doll in classes as well as on the floor .. certainly
something to ameliorate.

Yours sincerely,
Andrew

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 7:11 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] human words for human beings (was: teaching walking back
ochos)

> > ski tracks. Step forward a few times, then change
> > weight "without" your follow again, and you're back
> > to walking.
>
> Not to criticize Andrew in particular (especially
> since I think his description of how to teach the lead
> for back ochos is well-thought out and may well be
> very good - have to try it). But I am always
> disconcerted to read postings on this list where one
> partner is called the "leader" and the other the
> "follow." The person leading is a "leader"; the
> person following is a "follower"; the act of leading
> is the "lead" (or mark). I suppose if "follow" were
> anything it would be the act of following. But it is
> not a word for a human being.
>
> I know it's probably local slang in some places, and I
> know that language is flexible. (I also know that
> quibbling about words leads to long boring posts from
> the self-righteous, and I hope I am not one of them -
> but you never can tell...) But this usage makes me
> think about how much tango is thought of in terms of
> the leaders, how much instruction is directed at the
> leaders, and how often the followers become nameless,
> faceless pieces of equipment - necessary for the
> dance, but not quite participants. I'm afraid calling
> people "follows" reinforces the inequity.
>
> I have followed for several years, during which time I
> have been acutely aware of periods of instruction and
> dance in which my role could practically have been
> fulfilled by an inflatable doll for all the difference
> it made to the instructor or the leader. I am aware
> of adopting the same mindset sometimes when I am
> working on the lead - and it doesn't make me feel good
> about myself. But there it is. I am trying to
> overcome this mindset, and I invite others to do so
> also. First item on the agenda: let's call humans by
> words that refer to active beings, rather than
> abstract concepts.
>
> Cheers!
> Marisa
>
>
>
>

Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:31:34 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: human words for human beings (was: teaching walking back ochos)

Hi, Andrew,

I think you've missed what my linguistic concern is -
although we're in sync otherwise. We do not disagree,
I think, except that I only accept "leader" and
"follower" as descriptions for people. "Lead" and
"follow" are actions. In this posting, you use "lead"
as well as "follow" for humans, but you did not in
your previous posting. Nor is it common.

In any case, I did not say that calling a person a
follower denigrated their role in the dance. I did
say that their role is commonly treated as less
important, by many people. And I think that calling
the leader by a name which describes an active human
("leader") while calling the follower by a name which
denotes an action ("follow") may reflect this problem
- and even contribute to it.

You will notice that engineer, tech writer, support
person, marketing people, CEO, VP Finance, and
janitor, are all the names of professions - you did
not call them "design", "write", "type", "market",
"supervise", "number-crunch", or "sweep". (I admit the
last one crept into English at a time when people used
chimneys - but it was not an honored status, no matter
what you see in Mary Poppins.)

Anyhow, I'm all for using leader and follower as
sex-neutral terms (even if I do always respond to
"men" while leading). And for having them be
sex-neutral roles, as far as that goes. I just don't
want to call people by the names of actions - and I
really don't want to only call half the people that
way.

Cheers!
Marisa

--- Andrew <andrew@ORCADIGITAL.COM> wrote:

> I understand and empathize with your suggestion, and
> don't want to start a
> long thread on pc speech, but I think there are also
> some reasons to use
> this phrasing, and as some sort of terminology has
> to be used in a lot of
> the posts to any tango list, thus making this
> subject fairly relevant, it
> seems like it might be alright to post an
> alternative viewpoint to the list
> in reply.
>
> I used the terms pretty intentionally, but perhaps
> with a different
> "reading" than you're taking from them. The way I
> usually see these posts
> or articles written refer to the man and the woman -
> the man does this, the
> woman does that .. I find this somewhat troubling
> due to the fact that
> several of my favorite leads are women, and that I
> like to follow. As such,
> I need some way of referring to the dance roles with
> consistent gender
> neutrality. If I'm referring to people off the
> floor, and what they're
> doing, I would not refer to them by using role
> names. However, if - as
> another example - I am referring to employees in my
> company, and am
> referring to company business, I may be likely -
> without dehumanizing
> anyone - to refer to to people by the names of their
> roles/positions - the
> engineer will do this, the tech writer will work
> with the support person to
> do that, the marketing people will handle this part
> of the campaign while
> the CEO and VP Finance will take care of this. I,
> the janitor, will take
> care of the coffee spill .. ;)
>
> Anyhow, within a framework of a dance discussion, in
> a dance that at it's
> core involves a distinct separation of roles between
> the lead and follow -
> this is not to say there is a difference in
> importance between the roles,
> nor have I implied such - even when the roles are
> switched, or the lead is
> swapped back and forth, there is always this lead
> and follow aspect to the
> dance - providing detailed descriptions of what the
> (equal!) partners are
> doing, and doing so without gender specificity,
> suggests either referring to
> "lead" and "follow" - referring only to the roles
> within the role of the
> dance - or to constantly saying "the one who leads
> does this, then the one
> who follows does that, then the one who leads takes
> the one who follows
> around until the one who leads can ... " etc etc,
> which is unduly clunky for
> my compositional comfort.
>
> It also seems like suggesting that saying that this
> phrasing dehumanizes the
> one who follows, but not mentioning the lead,
> suggests that there is
> something inherently "less" about the follow role,
> which I disagree with ..
> the follow role, the follow, is in every way equal
> in importance to that of
> the lead - there is no "inequity" between a lead and
> a follow role for me,
> as you suggest .. it (the follow role) is a
> consensual, powerful role, and
> referring to someone as a "follow" within the
> confines of step descriptions
> shouldn't imply anything more negative than
> referring to someone as "lead"
> within them.
>
> Anyhow, I do understand your concerns, but I think
> this syntax also has some
> advantages, and following does not seem like a
> negative role to me ..
> particularly as I enjoy following, and don't mind
> being referred to as a
> follow for descriptive purposes while I am doing so.
> I hope we can agree to
> disagree. :) I'd also wholeheartedly agree with
> part of your concern,
> which is that the follow / one who follows often
> does get taken for granted
> and treated like a doll in classes as well as on the
> floor .. certainly
> something to ameliorate.
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Andrew

Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:26:55 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: human words for human beings (was: teaching walking back ochos)

Andrew,
Marisa complained, that you were using "the leadER", while calling the woman
"the follow", meaning, the man is a person, the woman is only a function.

> Anyhow, within a framework of a dance discussion, in a dance that at it's
> core involves a distinct separation of roles between the lead and follow -

Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:24:21 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: human words for human beings (was: teaching walking back ochos)

----Original Message Follows----

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:10:04 -0800
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking in a bad pair of shoes

David Hodgson wrote:

> That when they came to the cities the toes of the
> shoes were much tighter
> and really hurt their toes. Ever try walking around
> in a bad pair of shoes,
> I have found there are elements of this in the walk.

I'm sorry David, I don't understand what you mean
about the walk in tango being like walking in bad
shoes. I've heard people describe some really strange
things related to how to place your feet on the floor,
toe-heel, pointed in or out, or whatever. But it
always made sense to me to place your feet on the
floor as your normally would. Could you explain what
you mean?

Thanks,
Rose
Portland, OR

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:37:42 -0800
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking in a bad pair of shoes

Not a problem Razor Girl;
The reference was more to experience what it must have been like for these
guys way back when. I am impressed with how much discomfort the women can
put up with (IE: bad shoes), most guys just do not seem to handle or hide
discomfort as well (for what ever reason and I have my personal theories,
yes this is a broad generality).

The part I see in the walk these days (at least for the lead), is having
weight on one foot or the other rather than both feet at the same time. I
know when I have had a bad pair of shoes I am usually hopping on one foot or
the other trying to give the free one a break (in short no weight on both
feet at the same time).

As far as the walk these days it really depends on what you want to
communicate. But in general you are right, the walk is like a nice stroll
through the park or down the avenue.

David~

-----Original Message-----

From: Razor Girl [mailto:dilettante666@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:10 PM
To: David Hodgson; TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Walking in a bad pair of shoes

David Hodgson wrote:

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:40:06 -0500
From: Chan Park <Chan.K.Park@NASA.GOV>
Subject: Hugging Meditation and Walking Meditation

Rose,
Thank you for the wonderful expression you have found for tango. Good to know I am not the only one relating dancing tango to meditation. Recently I have been reading Master Hanh's book on "Walking Meditation" to get some inspiration for tango. Your finding is very inspiring..., and I am enlightened.

When you have time, please visit my Tango Zen web site at http://TangoZen.com and give your thoughts.

Chan
-----Original Message-----

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:28:00 -0000
From: Alex <alejandro.delmonte@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject: Re: Hugging Meditation and Walking Meditation

Interesting, Chan, how interesting. In a recent post of mine to this list I
mentioned the meditative nature of tango (as I see it anyway), and
sheepishly complained that no-one ever mentions this, so I'm glad to feel
that I'm not a lone voice preaching in the desert.

I used to practice (soto) Zen myself in times past, and just yesterday I was
browsing the only book on Zen I still keep --the rest felt superfluous so I
gave them away-- 'Zen's mind, beginners' mind' (Shunryo Suzuki), and I was
thinking... 'This is the best tango book I've ever read...' I'm sure you
know what I mean without my having to elaborate!

Best, Alex in London, UK.

PS: Nice website, sparse and elegant -- the tango way...

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 2:40 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Hugging Meditation and Walking Meditation

> Rose,
> Thank you for the wonderful expression you have found for tango. Good to

know I am not the only one relating dancing tango to meditation. Recently I
have been reading Master Hanh's book on "Walking Meditation" to get some
inspiration for tango. Your finding is very inspiring..., and I am
enlightened.

>
> When you have time, please visit my Tango Zen web site at

http://TangoZen.com and give your thoughts.

>
> Chan

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:11:22 +0000
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Hugging Meditation and Walking Meditation

Alex <alejandro.delmonte@NTLWORLD.COM> writes:

> Interesting, Chan, how interesting. In a recent post of mine to this
> list I mentioned the meditative nature of tango (as I see it
> anyway), and sheepishly complained that no-one ever mentions this,
> so I'm glad to feel that I'm not a lone voice preaching in the
> desert.

You're certainly not the only one. It's been mentioned a few times on
this list, and it's mentioned in passing here
<http://www.totaltango.com/acatalog/tango_health_37.html>, a magazine
feature from a few years ago. Christine mentioned it occasionally
during workshops too.

[...]

Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 2:40 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Hugging Meditation and Walking Meditation

> Rose,
> Thank you for the wonderful expression you have found for tango. Good to

>
> When you have time, please visit my Tango Zen web site at

http://TangoZen.com and give your thoughts.

>
> Chan

--
Chan K. Park
Office of Patent Counsel, Code 503
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Greenbelt, MD 20771
Phone: 301-286-2426
Fax: 301-286-9502
Chan.K.Park@nasa.gov

Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Hugging Meditation and Walking Meditation

> Alex <alejandro.delmonte@NTLWORLD.COM> writes:
>
> > Interesting, Chan, how interesting. In a recent post of mine to this
> > list I mentioned the meditative nature of tango (as I see it
> > anyway), and sheepishly complained that no-one ever mentions this,
> > so I'm glad to feel that I'm not a lone voice preaching in the
> > desert.
>
> You're certainly not the only one. It's been mentioned a few times on
> this list, and it's mentioned in passing here
> <http://www.totaltango.com/acatalog/tango_health_37.html>, a magazine
> feature from a few years ago. Christine mentioned it occasionally
> during workshops too.
>
> [...]

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:58:10 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay (E-mail)" <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Walking on the Balls of feet

I've got to agree with Roberto and Jack. I can feel when a leader walks on
the balls of his feet, and it doesn't feel good. (I also can't stand to have
a pea under my 20 mattresses :)!) Yet I hear teachers suggesting this. So I
started watching how dancers really dance, rather than just listening to
what people teach. Yes, most good dancers, especially in Bs.As, roll
through their feet from heel to toe.

Has anyone else noticed there are a lot of teachers out there who are
teaching something that is quite different from what they actually do? I
hear a lot of stuff that's kind of "regurgitated", rather than thought out.
Let's face it - most of us who have been in this awhile are dancing WAY
differently (I hope!) than when we started learning so many years ago! (Does
anyone teach "collection" anymore? Except to the Bridal party, anyway) What
worked to teach people back then doesn't always work anymore. Of course,
there's also a school of thought that says "we'll teach them this way, then
correct it later". But I wish I wouldn't have learned so much the wrong way,
because it took a long time to fix it. Some people never fix it.

There are some people who come to class already walking nicely. Some need to
learn a better way to walk, better posture, with more direction. In a group
lesson, what can you do to include everyone while not overcorrecting those
who are OK already?

Lois Donnay
Minneapolis

> I agree with Roberto in the fundamental sense. Neither 8
> count basic nor walking on the ball of the feet help
> beginners. 8 count basic makes beginners do their part
> instead of leading/following, and get them use to patterns.
> And making beginners walk on the ball of their feet (forward
> movement), since it is not the natural way of walking, throws
> them off balance (unless they have dance background) and
> increases the use of arms for balance, limits their movement.

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:50:26 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking on the Balls of feet - Collection

Lois, you asked ...

... Does anyone teach "collection" anymore?

I don't understand what you mean, that is, why collection is apparently not
important.

I always teach collection. I find that beginning dancers, especially those
coming from a salsa background, do not habitually collect when they step,
with the result they look like wide-legged cowboys/girls. I think collection
is critical to creating the elegance of tango, not to mention bringing you
back to your center/axis, so that you are prepared for whatever spontaneous
step is coming next. If you haven't collected, that is you have your
un-weighted foot out to the side, then your axis is not directly below you,
and you've inevitably limited the options for the next step.

So please help me understand where you're coming from with your comment.

J in Portland

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:01:08 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Walking on the Balls of feet - Collection

I never use the word "collection" because it implies bringing the feet
together and stopping, which is a staccato way of walking, not a
smooth, flowing one. In my opinion, "passing by close" is better
language and creates a better foundation.

Staccato is okay, it just shouldn't be the default.

On Jul 1, 2004, at 9:50 AM, Jay Rabe wrote:

> Lois, you asked ...
>
> ... Does anyone teach "collection" anymore?
>
> I don't understand what you mean, that is, why collection is
> apparently not
> important.
> ...
> So please help me understand where you're coming from with your
> comment.
>
> J in Portland

Tom Stermitz
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
h: 303-388-2560

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:28:03 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay (E-mail)" <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Walking on the Balls of feet - Collection

The Bridal Party Collection is what I'm talking about, and seems to be one
of the first things I've got to correct when people come to me from other
classes. It is my feeling that collection should be a result of correct axis
and posture, not the other way around. If people are collecting by bringing
their feet tightly together instead of finding and keeping a good axis, they
will never be able to do a boleo or many of the other lovely things you get
to do. The "tight leg" that results by holding your legs together rather
than holding your axis also can make a follower slow to follow.

Does any of this make sense?

Lois

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Jay Rabe
> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 10:50 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Walking on the Balls of feet - Collection
>
>
> Lois, you asked ...
>
> ... Does anyone teach "collection" anymore?
>
> I don't understand what you mean, that is, why collection is
> apparently not important.
>
> I always teach collection. I find that beginning dancers,
> especially those coming from a salsa background, do not
> habitually collect when they step, with the result they look
> like wide-legged cowboys/girls. I think collection is
> critical to creating the elegance of tango, not to mention
> bringing you back to your center/axis, so that you are
> prepared for whatever spontaneous step is coming next. If you
> haven't collected, that is you have your un-weighted foot out
> to the side, then your axis is not directly below you, and
> you've inevitably limited the options for the next step.
>
> So please help me understand where you're coming from with
> your comment.
>
> J in Portland
>
> Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan
> from McAfee. Security.
>
>

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:34:20 -0400
From: John Gleeson <john.gleeson@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Walking on the Balls of feet - Collection

The more normal phrase used in the dance world is,
I believe, "brushing your feet" - which implies not
stopping the movement.

John G.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Walking on the Balls of feet - Collection

> I never use the word "collection" because it implies bringing the feet
> together and stopping, which is a staccato way of walking, not a
> smooth, flowing one. In my opinion, "passing by close" is better
> language and creates a better foundation.
>
> Staccato is okay, it just shouldn't be the default.
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2004, at 9:50 AM, Jay Rabe wrote:
>
> > Lois, you asked ...
> >
> > ... Does anyone teach "collection" anymore?
> >
> > I don't understand what you mean, that is, why collection is
> > apparently not
> > important.
> > ...
> > So please help me understand where you're coming from with your
> > comment.
> >
> > J in Portland
>
> Tom Stermitz
> 2525 Birch St
> Denver, CO 80207
> h: 303-388-2560
>

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:28:12 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking on the Balls of feet - Collection

>Lois, you asked ...
>
>... Does anyone teach "collection" anymore?

I do. This is how I explain the lead to progressive back ochos: collecting
forces leader to move his axis from side to side which in turn shifts
follower's axis - hence the lead (of course couple has to be in the
crossfeet position before the lead). If you do not collect your axis will
not move, follower will simply walk back instead of doing back ochos.

All of the above is applicable to milonguero style.

Jay's comment below is valid too.

Cheers, Oleh K.

http://TangoSpring.com

>From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Reply-To: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Walking on the Balls of feet - Collection
>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:50:26 +0000
>
>Lois, you asked ...
>
>... Does anyone teach "collection" anymore?
>
>I don't understand what you mean, that is, why collection is apparently not
>important.
>
>I always teach collection. I find that beginning dancers, especially those
>coming from a salsa background, do not habitually collect when they step,
>with the result they look like wide-legged cowboys/girls. I think
>collection
>is critical to creating the elegance of tango, not to mention bringing you
>back to your center/axis, so that you are prepared for whatever spontaneous
>step is coming next. If you haven't collected, that is you have your
>un-weighted foot out to the side, then your axis is not directly below you,
>and you've inevitably limited the options for the next step.
>
>So please help me understand where you're coming from with your comment.
>
> J in Portland
>

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:17:00 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: walking on the balls of the feet

I am very confused - this whole topic strikes me as very odd. Are we
talking about some kind of toe-ball-heel style, or walking on
demi-pointe while walking forward? Here in Seattle there is only one
instructor who teaches something similiar, and he was a student of Copes
at some point. I have never heard of anyone else advocating that style
unless they were teaching some kind of stage tango. Just this morning I
took out Fabian Salas' Tango Fundamentals DVDs, Vol. 1, and put it in
slow motion. Mr. Salas even mentions how to place the foot - placing the
outside edge down first and then rolling onto the whole foot. The only
time I can see him walking ball-heel is when he steps backward, and then
only as a transitional state to being on the whole foot.

Many of my teachers have talked about landing on the whole foot, so I
must admit to a great deal of confusion. Who is actually advocating this
alternative, and are they advocating it for social AT or stage AT? What
are the advantages of landing on the ball of the foot, as opposed to the
whole foot?

Also (and please correct me if I am mistaken here), should not the focus
be on body alignment and staying slightly forward, but still in balance,
on one's axis while walking? It seems to me if one does that, the foot
issue would take care of itself.

Michael
Tango Bellingham

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:08:34 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Walking on the Balls of feet - Collection

It seems to me, reading over this discussion, that there are several useful
ideas or questions being talked about, using various wordings, which are in
fact separable.

On this I am a 'splitter' - I believe it is more useful to separate them if
we are to have a useful discussion about teaching methods etc.

So, here goes, a Possibly Useful List:

1) Do teachers teach what they actually do, on the subject of walking?
2) If they do not, is their teaching method still useful?

3) Is tango based on a particular way of walking?

{If your answer to 3 is "no", skip 4 through 10!}

4) Should people be taught to modify their walking when they start tango?
5) Should people be taught to modify their walking later in their tango
learning?

6) Does it matter which part of the foot strikes the floor first? If so
which part is best: the heel, or the ball, or the toe, or some other part
of the foot?
7) Does it matter which part of the foot the weight ends up on, when weight
is fully transferred to that foot? If so, which part is best: the heel,
the ball, or the toe, or some other part of the foot?

8) Should people bring their feet/ankles/legs to touch each other between
steps?
9) If the answer to 7 is "yes", is it best to teach this directly (eg "bring
your feet together", or indirectly (eg "hold your axis and bring all your
weight onto the supporting foot and relax the other leg").
10) If the answer to 7 is "yes", should be people be taught to pause their
leg as they pass through the 'feet together' position?

11) Does asking 'what do famous teachers _teach_" tell us something useful?
12) Does asking 'what do famous teachers _do_" tell us something useful?
13) Does a teacher being also a famous or respected social dancer make
their teaching more useful?
14) Does a teacher being also a famous or respected performer make their
teaching more useful?
15) Does a teacher being from BA, or dancing or performing in BA, make
their teaching more useful?

Of course, I have some opinions on some of these, but mainly I wanted to
have the discussion continue, away from name dropping and flaming!

Also...

> The Bridal Party Collection is what I'm talking about...

What is "Bridal Party Collection"? Is it like a UK military 'slow march' -
step, pause, step, pause - with the 'pause' in the 'feet together' position?

--

Gary Barnes
Canberra, Australia

"more tango, more often"

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:36:22 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: walking on the balls of the feet

Nicole wrote:
The problem is, most beginners and on average most people that are
non-dancers, I have found in my 8 years of teaching, don't have their weight
distributed correctly on their foot in their "natu
ral" way of moving

Could you explain that some more? Where exactly is the "correct" point of
gravity in a natural way of moving?

two thoughts:
Michael wrote:
Mr. Salas even mentions how to place the foot - placing the

> outside edge down first and then rolling onto the whole foot.

The only image that comes to my mind is that of a bow-legged penguin. Sorry
, Michael. ; )
I do not see how this can possibly work out in an elegant way. I have been
taught to slide along the floor with the inner ridge of the big toe and the
bunion very slightly touching the floor, toes turned slightly out. This not
only looks elegant but also is a great one for balance: you always have two
feet on the floor, and can lean on that ridge and slightly support your
weight if necessary, like if the leader pushes you, you get bumped by
another couple or something else is trying to throw you off your axis. The
outside edge of the foot first? Nah, only babies walk like that, I believe.
Please explain, if otherwise. Maybe this works better in men's shoes? I am
getting a hunch that walking mostly backwards in high heels, and walking
mostly forwards in flat shoes is an entirely different story, so men and
women may be talking about two different things here, creating a lot of
misunderstanding with each other.

Tom wrote:
(3) Teaching women in social tango to take LOONNGG back-steps. This
doesn't function on the social dance floor, it leads them to bob up and
down, arch their backs or tip their axis forward and back. This is
another contributer to injured backs.

I was taught to do that in the beginning. Thing was, my teacher also took
loooonngg steps, so it worked fine. But when I tried that (as a beginner)
with a verrry tall beginner leader, who was in the habit of taking very
short, timid steps, to protect himself from falling over at his great height
(and who had his weight on his heels too), it caused him instant major
anxiety.
For all I know, the woman's steps should be exactly as long as the man leads
them. I have recently been told by an aspiring tango teacher to take longer
steps during a dance. But his steps were medium short, and I would have had
to backlead him to make mine longer. Note: only ask a woman to take long
steps, if you can project your weight that far forward with a long stride
yourself.

Astrid

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:55:04 +0200
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: walking on the balls of the feet

Hello Astrid,

> Mr. Salas even mentions how to place the foot - placing the
> > outside edge down first and then rolling onto the whole foot.
>
> The only image that comes to my mind is that of a bow-legged penguin.

[snip]

> Please explain, if otherwise. Maybe this works better in men's shoes? I am
> getting a hunch that walking mostly backwards in high heels, and walking
> mostly forwards in flat shoes is an entirely different story, so men and
> women may be talking about two different things here, creating a lot of
> misunderstanding with each other.

Mr. Salas is correct (somewhat unsurprisingly), and your hunch is correct,
too. Walking forward is quite different from walking backward, high or low
heels don4t make a big difference in that respect. Try walking forward with
the inner edge of the foot leading...and watch yourself in a mirror doing it
;-)

>
> For all I know, the woman's steps should be exactly as long as the man
> leads
> them.

(*applause*)

I have recently been told by an aspiring tango teacher to take

> longer
> steps during a dance.

The emphasis is on *aspiring*. Ignore him, please!

Cheers,
Andreas

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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:57:44 +0200
From: Ecsedy �ron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: Walking on the Balls of feet - general approach

The Gary's list below is definitely worth a checking out.

The whole ball/heel thing in tango, or in any dance - IMHO - is a sham.

Just think: why do you need to use either ball/heel? What is the purpose? Why does any part of the foot have to get "extra attention"? =
The answer is simple: In tango you need to keep your posture (axis) the same all the time. You can't wobble or swing you torso. To achieve this, =
you need your feet to support you as you wouldn't have feet but rather wheels... Which means: you need to to put the largest possible area of =
support surface (your feet, or part of it) fast (before your weight leaves the other feet). If you take small steps, this is easy: you put =
weight immediately on your entire feet (feels as you would fall on your toes: why? You are keeping the posture which WAS built up so your upper =
body is forward - resulting the weight to be shifted onto your toes - in the first place.). If you take larger steps, you are in trouble. You can =
either push yourself "in the air" and "fall" onto the other feet, slide through the floor or use your heels as support for a little while. (I =
saw people teaching all these, but IMO these are all viable options) In any case, the goal is to put the most area of feet onto the ground. =
However, why should be the balls of the feet be the focus? Try to pivot and tell me: if you pivot with a full foot on the ground where is the =
centre of rotation - if you aim to assure the least amount of torsional stress to your feet?

Also, you must consider that a social dance with the history of tango could use any and all possible techniques, as the dance was formed by =
individuals and was never really canonized. This also means: any technique that enables you to execute the moves comfortably (for both =
dancers) is viable.

Cheers,
Aron

PS: With the exception of a few peculiar moves and styles, focusing on the ball of the feet IS key to all types of dancing.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Barnes
> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 4:09 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Walking on the Balls of feet - Collection
>
> It seems to me, reading over this discussion, that there are
> several useful ideas or questions being talked about, using
> various wordings, which are in fact separable.
>
> On this I am a 'splitter' - I believe it is more useful to
> separate them if we are to have a useful discussion about
> teaching methods etc.
>
> So, here goes, a Possibly Useful List:
>
> 1) Do teachers teach what they actually do, on the subject
> of walking?
> 2) If they do not, is their teaching method still useful?
>
> 3) Is tango based on a particular way of walking?
>
> {If your answer to 3 is "no", skip 4 through 10!}
>
> 4) Should people be taught to modify their walking when they
> start tango?
> 5) Should people be taught to modify their walking later in
> their tango learning?
>
> 6) Does it matter which part of the foot strikes the floor
> first? If so which part is best: the heel, or the ball, or
> the toe, or some other part of the foot?
> 7) Does it matter which part of the foot the weight ends up
> on, when weight is fully transferred to that foot? If so,
> which part is best: the heel, the ball, or the toe, or some
> other part of the foot?
>
> 8) Should people bring their feet/ankles/legs to touch each
> other between steps?
> 9) If the answer to 7 is "yes", is it best to teach this
> directly (eg "bring your feet together", or indirectly (eg
> "hold your axis and bring all your weight onto the
> supporting foot and relax the other leg").
> 10) If the answer to 7 is "yes", should be people be taught
> to pause their leg as they pass through the 'feet together' position?
>
> 11) Does asking 'what do famous teachers _teach_" tell us
> something useful?
> 12) Does asking 'what do famous teachers _do_" tell us
> something useful?
> 13) Does a teacher being also a famous or respected social
> dancer make their teaching more useful?
> 14) Does a teacher being also a famous or respected
> performer make their teaching more useful?
> 15) Does a teacher being from BA, or dancing or performing
> in BA, make their teaching more useful?
>
> Of course, I have some opinions on some of these, but mainly
> I wanted to have the discussion continue, away from name
> dropping and flaming!
>
> Also...
>
> > The Bridal Party Collection is what I'm talking about...
>
> What is "Bridal Party Collection"? Is it like a UK military
> 'slow march' - step, pause, step, pause - with the 'pause'
> in the 'feet together' position?
>
>
> --
>
> Gary Barnes
> Canberra, Australia
>
> "more tango, more often"
>

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:26:21 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: walking on the balls of the feet, balance and posture

Nicole wrote what her "walking professor" taught her in college:
"Weight should land slightly in front of the arch, right at the back part of
the metatarsal for "proper" standing weight, with hips tucked, back straight
to keep solid balance on the ground, all aligned with a straight axis from
the top of your head to the bottom of your pelvis (that's the way our spine
is designed).

> This is not only a dancers way, but also what I've had chiropractors and

podiatrists and my "walking" professor in college say this is the "way for
proper balance to inflict less injury to your spine, knees and feet"."

I would like to add to this the best piece of advice I ever received in all
my years of dancing, from a female teacher on tango-l, who does not want to
be named. XY, this has helped me so much, and I will be forever grateful.
This has changed the entire way I move, and my body has changed and adapted
to this and feels so much better, lighter, taller and springier this way.
Here is (again) what she wrote to me at the time:

"I have discovered that pulling the weight of the upper body out of the
groin is the way to take the weight off the feet and knees (especially
knees because that is where dancers get injured most). I encourage my
students and all serious dancers to take Martha Graham beginner modern
classes because that technique is incredible for the tango and needs no
separate interpretation to be incorporated into the tango. It builds the
center and teaches dancers how to use their abdominals in tango so that
their shoulders don't sink into the hips and hips don't sink into the
knees, and the rest does not sink into the feet."

Add to this Pilates exercises, which aim directly to strengthen the deep
muscles in the middle of your body, which hold the spine straight in the
lower back, keep the stomach in and your ribcage raised, and and your axis
will be notably strengthened, and all your moves made considerably more
elegant.

I am glad that there are at least a few people on tango-l, who really know
what they are talking about. Thank you, Nicole.

Astrid

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:47:28 +0200
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: walking on the balls of the feet

>
> . Try walking forward with
> > the inner edge of the foot leading...and watch yourself in a mirror
> doing
> it
> > ;-)
>
> Nothing laughable about that. I have watched, many times. The inner edge
> of
> the foot is not leading, it is just what is what is close to the floor, it
> really is the inner part of the ball of the foot. The whole thing is
> called
> the hook step, I have been told. What is leading the movement is really
> more
> the chest, as the weight is slightly forward, and there is some tension on
> the upper surface of the foot.

Ok, I see what you meant. What I was talking about was the "basic method",
if there is such a thing. When you extend your leg forward without any
tension, the natural thing usually is that the outer edge of the front part
of the foot is touching (caressing) the ground. I guess that is what Fabian
Salas was talking about. With the method you describe you would probably not
fully extend the leg, correct?
When I walk in tango, I use different ways of setting down my foot, among
them probably sometimes the method you describe above, more often than not
rolling from heel to toes in the milonguero way. Anything goes as long as it
fits your movement system of the moment in the dance, and as long as it fits
the music.

>
> Walking forward is quite different from walking backward, high or low
> heels don4t make a big difference in that respect.
>
> Only a man would say that, as you have never tried. Heels make a huge
> difference in your movements, your balance (more difficult to maintain,
> takes a lot of training) they change the entire alignment of the body.
> That
> is why women tend to dance tango on tip toes, when they do not wear high
> heels. And women do not always walk backward, esp. not when practising the
> walk on their own.

Argh! Stop. I was not meaning to say high heels don4t make a difference, and
yes, I am quite glad I don4t have to wear those things... What I was trying
to say is that the height of the heels is not the determining factor; if the
leg is totally relaxed, the foot tends to touch the ground with the
inside/big toe when moved backwards, and with the outside when moved
forward. Basic exercise with most teachers, I think, so I tend to call it
the basic method...

>
> Should I write in German?
> Astrid

Only if you give me more verbal slaps. ;-)
I should try to be a bit less sloppy in formulating stuff...

Cheers,
Andreas

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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 03:25:12 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Walking

I suppose this might be the most obvious thing, but for those people
making the transition out of the beginning stages of tango, who notices
the way walk off the dance floor feels different than "Before Tango"?

--
Christopher L. Everett

Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com

Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 16:28:04 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango

Well, to be more "precise":

It is somewhat hard to discern the "precision" in
social Tango, not least because precision is
associated with coldness, premeditation and analysis.
Social Tango is a warm, "between friends" dance. Stage
Tango has all the previously mentioned bad
characteristics, and too many people take it as a
model to emulate, obviously due to exposure to shows,
movies and visiting teachers rather than to the real
stuff.

If one wants to get the most from a Tango visit to
Argentina, one would do well to visit provincial towns
to see the real social dance. Bs As in my view is too
cosmopolite, and corrupted by exposure to the
learners, the curious, and by teachers and performers
catering to tourists.

Lucia ;->

--- Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
escribis:

> Lucia wrote:
>
> >I agree with Trini's remonstrance, I was
> >unnecessarily edgy.
> >
> >Regarding Jeff's comment on dancing precision: I do
> >not agree with his remark. The best social Tango
> >dancers have a relaxed, smooth and elegant quality,
> >achieved after many years of much dancing.
> >
> >Lucia
> >
> Of course ! A relaxed, smooth and elegant quality is
> the essence of
> tango, but -- this can only be achieved by
> precision. Learning to
> achieve precision is really the question. Learning
> to walk is the first
> absolutely imperative lesson in precision. After
> this precision becomes
> natural a relaxed, smooth and elegant quality
> happens.
>
> From Lucia previously:>> Many American dancers are
> obsessed by Tango figures, and dismiss the walk. It
> should be noted though that it takes many months for
> an Argentine dancer to study the walk with a teacher
> in order to become a professional dancer, and they
> practice continually.<<
>
> Amen! a number of great maestros, with 40 or 50
> years of tango under
> their belts, have stayed with us at our home in
> California, and every
> morning, before coffee, they would practice walking
> up and down our
> living room/dance floor. When we would go to the
> supermarket, they
> practiced in the aisles. There is no substitute or
> quick fix for
> perfecting the tango walk.
>
> We tell our students that if they learn to walk
> well, by constant
> practice, then add nicely done salidas, cadencias
> and an a few back
> ochos they can dance tango happily and beautifully
> all their lives. Do
> they listen? Do they believe us? Lo dudo. ?que se
> yo?
>
> Barbara
>

Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 13:36:58 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango

>From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
>precision is
>associated with coldness, premeditation and analysis.

Coldness? Premeditation? Analysis? How about natural physical prowess or
athletic ability? How about skill from practice? How about just plain
dancing to the music and with your partner?

>Social Tango is a warm, "between friends" dance.

Does this mean that it must be imprecise or sloppy?

>Stage
>Tango has all the previously mentioned bad
>characteristics, and too many people take it as a
>model to emulate, obviously due to exposure to shows,
>movies and visiting teachers rather than to the real
>stuff.

Stage tango is an exhibition, a labor of artists. It's no different from an
Ice Skating show a Broadway musical or the Cirque De Soleil. Why is it
necessary to ascribe "bad" characteristics to it? Is it necessarily wrong
for people to want to emulate what they see? If you are familiar with
American culture you know that many young boys aspire to be the next athlete
star and the young women often aspire to be the next famous starlet, singer,
etc. They are inspired by the work of the pros. It might not be "social
dancing", but it does not get any more "real" that that.

>If one wants to get the most from a Tango visit to
>Argentina, one would do well to visit provincial towns
>to see the real social dance. Bs As in my view is too
>cosmopolite, and corrupted by exposure to the
>learners, the curious, and by teachers and performers
>catering to tourists.

It's been some time since I was in Buenos Aires, but as I recall, the
milongas were full of regular people dancing tango. I did not have the
opportunity to enjoy the pleasure of visiting provincial towns, but it's a
well known fact that the "real" tango scene is in Bs As. The tango is so
much a part of Bs As that it's inextricable. The provinces are not know at
all for their tango scenes. The provinces are known for the folklore, the
estancias, the gauchos, the fishing, hunting, horseback riding, etc. The
best of the best in tango are much more likely to be found in Bs As and
ironically, in other big cities throughout the world, even though many
superlative tango dancers have come from the provinces themselves. IMHO,
there is no "tango purity" or uncorrupted "tango scenes" in the provinces of
Argentina. The "real thing" can be seen and enjoyed in Bs As more than in
any other part of the world.

Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 22:01:10 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango

> >From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
> >precision is
> >associated with coldness, premeditation and analysis.
>
> Coldness? Premeditation? Analysis? How about natural physical prowess or
> athletic ability? How about skill from practice?

Well, said, Manuel. I agree completely. The big mistake that many
dilettantes make is that they think, they can replace the countless long
hard hours of practise a skillful artist has gone thru before becoming what
he is by something like "a warm heart, spontaneousness and intuition." Fact
is, these things do help, but true use of "spontaneousness and intuition"
can be only made once one has acquired a proper foundation and has mastered
the technique to such a degree that one does not need to think about it when
dancing.
There is a world of difference between a dancer who is not thinking about
technique because he has got it all stored in his subconscious, and a dancer
who does not think about technique because he does not know it !

> >Social Tango is a warm, "between friends" dance.
>
> Does this mean that it must be imprecise or sloppy?

Yes. This may come as a surprise to you, Lucia, but aspiring artists with an
interest in esthetics sometimes have friends too...
Sorry, but all this talk about "cold analysis", Jeff's "typical engineering
approach" and so on sounds like sour grapes to me.
And Lucia is the same person who told us a while ago that proper dancers
should go thru an audition before they are allowed to learn tango, that they
have to spend "months" (haha) learning how to walk the tango, that Americans
cannot learn a dance like that etc.

What it all comes down to, I hope I got this right, is that the only person
on this list who is qualified and has the right to dance tango because she
has the right attitude is Lucia herself, maybe?

Astrid

Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:28:23 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango - About Tango Precision being an Oxymoron

Oxymoron: a combination of contradictory terms
The following argument is intended for Social Tango
only.

--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> escribis:

> > >From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
> > >precision is
> > >associated with coldness, premeditation and
> analysis.
> >
> > Coldness? Premeditation? Analysis? How about
> natural physical prowess or
> > athletic ability? How about skill from practice?
>
> Well, said, Manuel. I agree completely.

Since some have publicly trumpeted their conviction
that Social Tango is a dance of precision, a
correction is needed lest their pernicious views
corrupt the innocent.

If we glance at the definition of "precision" in an
English dictionary:

1. Used or intended for accurate or exact measurement

2. Made so as to vary minimally from a set standard.

I would add, a quality that can be reproduced exactly
and repeatedly with a minimum of variance.

If there's an English linguist reading, I would
appreciate a correction. For I never heard about a
"precise walk". But a limping walk, sensuous walk,
hobbling walk, fast. slow, timid, confident, macho
walk, etc. One could also mull over the terms
"precision dancer, (if it exists)" and "skilled
dancer". I know about "precisin bombing" though ;->

Before you start suspecting that maybe "precision" is
a term ill-suited to Social Tango, let's see if there
are dances that the term applies accurately to.

Take the classical ballet: the dancers, in pas de deux
for example, are judged on synchronicity, paralleism
of limbs, equal angles, height of movement,
repeatebility.

This is called Precision!

And to be able to dance like a Bolshoi or a Royal
Ballet dancer, you have to a personal application,
whic yes, includes a mix of will, premeditation,
coldness and analyisis, along with other
characteristics.

It needs also grace and talent, but sorry to say, some
correspondents to this list, including Astrid who
enjoys displaying her ignorance, seem to think that
natural talent is replaceable by hard work.

To continue the argument, is ballet, or quadrille,
true dances of precision, comparable to Social Tango?
Then, does anyone still think that Social Tango can be
defined as a dance of precision? That there are
elements in Social Tango that can be measured
according to the definition of "precision", time and
again, and for every couple?

Lucia ;->

Huh, to think what befell to a simple dancing walk to
the tune of a bandoneon!...

Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 04:20:55 -1200
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango - About Tango Precision being an Oxymoron

There definitely is a precision about tango. To dance tango
well is like opening a combination lock. If the combination
is 36-12-24, 40-15-24 won't open the lock.

There is a definite alignment with tango. When the partners
are out of alignment, it's difficult (or impossible) to
dance. So many people concentrate so much on footwork and
ignore body position.

For example, to successfully sweep the woman's foot, I have
to get her to step backwards on her left foot and sweep her
right foot with my left foot on her side step. As I sweep
her foot, my hips must turn because I have to pivot on my
support (right) foot to face her after the sweep. The
difference between successfully and almost getting it right
can be inches. (There are other ways to sweep.)

Yes, tango has warmth, passion, and chemistry. However,
without technique, it's difficult to stroke tango's flames.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Leaving for NY on Thursday, 1:05 Track 23

Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:11:10 -0800
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango - About Tango Precision being an Oxymoron

The suffering of the world caused by extremists, how could tango be an exception ;).

On one side you have technically oriented, technique for the sake of technique category. On the other extreme are old school who think, you learn tango for tens of years, that social dancing = bad posture, sloppy footwork, that you have to be old, fat, ugly and have a pot belly etc etcyou have be Argentine ofcourse.

Or may be there is a meeting point somewhere between?.

By the way the world is moving, if you have to be as old as those molingueros to be good, it might bit too late for lot of people. They better be doing something else or they may invent something else that works for them and how can you blame them?.

Either teach them how to dance real tango or dont say anything;).

Lot people do think that they can learn tango, that you have something, some talent and for what you lack you go to teachers. Many people earn their living as a result. What is wrong with that?

IL

Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR> wrote:Oxymoron: a combination of contradictory terms
The following argument is intended for Social Tango
only.

--- astrid escribis:

> > >From: Lucia
> > >precision is
> > >associated with coldness, premeditation and
> analysis.
> >
> > Coldness? Premeditation? Analysis? How about
> natural physical prowess or
> > athletic ability? How about skill from practice?
>
> Well, said, Manuel. I agree completely.

Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 02:23:38 -0600
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango; joys of simple tango

>>astrid wrote:
>>Lucia is the same person who told us a while ago that proper dancers
should go thru an audition before they are allowed to learn tango, that
they have to spend "months" (haha) learning how to walk the tango, that
Americans cannot learn a dance like that etc. <<

If not precision, what do people learn by walking the tango for months?
Are they learning passion, warmth, etc. or are they learning tango? One
can practice passion and warmth without walking, even without dancing at
all, without standing up! If one isn't capable of passion or warmth, I
don't think that dancing tango badly will make up the deficit.

If not to learn the correct (by whoever's standards) way of walking,
what did the student of olden times practice in those months? What, if
not the precise way of walking the tango? The emotions that tango
releases cannot be realized until one's body relaxes into the movements,
implying an internalized precise knowledge.

I said in a previous post that Al and I try (without outstanding
success) to convince our students that beautifully executed
utlra-simple dancing is much more rewarding AND impressive to
knowledgeable others, than the latest and/or flashiest moves. However I
must admit that this is an extremely difficult concept to communicate
(to convince). Even harder than teaching musicality. We urge our
students to take the beginning class over and over even as they go on to
more advanced material. We prefer to teach beginners, because we
believe that the essence of tango is in walking and the first techniques
of movement, leading and following. Although our own style is close/open
salon Villa Urquiza (whatever you want to call it, but not strict close
embrace/milonguero), this philosophy applies to most styles, maybe not
Nuevo Tango, where flash rather than connection seems to rule.

I believe that dancing simple tango well is a lofty goal for anyone,
and that achieving mastery in only that will take as long as it takes,
probably years, requires precision, practice and devotion, and is
infinitely more satisfying than keeping up with every latest
fad/technique. That said, it's ever so much easier to do barridas,
ganchos, leans and back sacadas to impress the populace.
Abrazos from Puerto Vallarta,
Barbara
www.tangobar-productions.com

Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:00:19 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango; joys of simple tango

Tango walk is very special. Many people pointed that out here.
It is very complex. I know 2 types of tango walk which I call for myself
"Salon" and "Street". They are variations of the same thing.
Tango walk is the most advanced element in tango which is sufficient enough
for the great dance.
Taking beginner classes does not help, because teachers do not teach tango
walk
at the beginner classes. Many people who teach do not even know what tango
walk is.

Tango walk is so important, that I like to say to myself - if I know tango
walk - I dance tango.
If not - no matter what I do, I am not dancing tango - it is something else.

What do you think, if teachers start teaching with tango walk instead of
8-counts,
would be the result achieved earlier and easier?

Improvisations on tango walk are innumerous. Tiny and large.
I have this crazy idea that all tango elements are improvisations on tango
walk
- tango has a linear structure. Of course, there two more dancing
structures:
circular, and in-one-place - on the square. Hmm....

At the same time I believe to have perfect tango walk, one has to know well
most of other tango elements and understand very well what is connection.
And tango elements are necessary to know, but it is not enough.

On precision. There are 2 types of precision. Mechanical and adaptive.
One steps mechanically perfectly precisely following a memorized pattern.
Another, adapts himself to the partner, partner to himself, and to
circumstances in execute
the best possible move to the best possible point. Like a missile on a
target.
What precision do you like?

Igor Polk.

Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:29:38 -0500
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango; joys of simple tango

On 11/8/05, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:

>
>
> On precision. There are 2 types of precision.

Like say, precision precision, and fuzzy precision?-)

What precision do you like?

>
>
> Igor Polk.

Seth

Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:51:33 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango; joys of simple tango

> Tango walk is the most advanced element in tango which is sufficient

enough

> for the great dance.
> Taking beginner classes does not help, because teachers do not teach tango
> walk
> at the beginner classes. Many people who teach do not even know what tango
> walk is.
> What do you think, if teachers start teaching with tango walk instead of
> 8-counts,
> would be the result achieved earlier and easier?

I can see why you keep asking all these questions on the list. It seems like
your teacher really does not have a clue. I don't know who you are studying
with, but I'd suggest, get out of there soon and find someone else. That
walking is not taught on beginner's level, and the 8 count is cannot be
generalised like this. Most of the better classes here in opkyo run by
Argentines start with walking exercises, then balancing exercises, executing
pivots on your own and such. The first part of the "step combination of the
day" (if the teacher believes in this stuff) is shown 15-20 minutes into the
class.

Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 21:16:27 EST
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango; joys of simple tango

Igor wrote:
Tango walk is the most advanced element in tango which is sufficient
enough

To wit Astrid replied:

I can see why you keep asking all these questions on the list. It seems like
your teacher really does not have a clue. I don't know who you are studying
with, but I'd suggest, get out of there soon and find someone else. That
walking is not taught on beginner's level and the 8 count is cannot be
generalized like this. Most of the better classes here in opkyo run by
Argentines start with walking exercises, then balancing exercises, executing
pivots on your own and such. The first part of the "step combination of the
day" (if the teacher believes in this stuff) is shown 15-20 minutes into the
class.

To which I ask why do we even bother with the list? I we can't have
discussions without being shot at, why would anyone participate?
If I began my first tango lesson that my wife talked me into and my teacher
told me that I would have to learn the "Tango Walk" and until I did do it
with great precision I would learn any patterns, then he/she began with 20
minutes and another 20 minutes of balance exercises with 10 minutes of discussion
thrown in for good measure, my wife might get me back for a second lesson,
but if it repeated. I would probably say holy sh*t this is a bore and no fun, I
am outa here. At the risk of generalization I would say, at least in the
States, the primary reason to learn Tango is to enjoy oneself and ones partner
in a discipline that is fun. Leave me the impression that it's not fun and I
am not there.
Different cultures have different motivations or ways of dealing with those
motivations, but that would only mean the duration of the discomfort not
necessarily the acceptance of it. This opinion does not lessen the need for
precision or the need to execute the Tango walk, but only the when and how it is
introduced. Good teachers are able to read the mood and motivation of the
class and will introduce or work on fundamentals in different ways and times.
This will vary from student to student, class to class. If individuals are
really going to experience and love Argentine Tango, they will have to learn
the walk and be increasing more precise in their movements.
Mark Twain said and I am paraphrasing and definitely out of his context, but
I think the comment is accurate…"practice and experience shall give them
that confidence, elegance and precision which alone can make the accomplishment
graceful…"
We have to encourage, not dictate this development. Precision is a
continuum, except for a few; most will not or can not attain the precision need to be
great. Many will think they are, and relative to the masses they are great,
but it’s the masses that pay the bills and have fun that lets the few of
enjoy their fun and our quest.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle

Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:52:40 -0500
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango; joys of simple tango

Well Barbara:
Try this. Give them the figures they want. When they can't execute them,
tell them "all that glitters is not gold. You don't have the skill yet.
Skill requires axis, frame, posture and balance. You're not going to learn
it in two months."Or better yet, dance poorly with Al to give them a sample
of bad dancing. Part of the problem is beginners need a baseline to
determine what is "good" dancing.

I'm reminded of the old TV program "Kung Fu" with David Carradine. The kung
fu master would always say something like "grasshopper. You must learn
patience to learn." Well tango is the same way. Some things can't be rushed.

Michael
Leaving for NY on Thursday

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 3:23 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Walking the tango; joys of simple tango

> >
> I said in a previous post that Al and I try (without outstanding
> success) to convince our students that beautifully executed
> utlra-simple dancing is much more rewarding AND impressive to
> knowledgeable others, than the latest and/or flashiest moves. However I
> must admit that this is an extremely difficult concept to communicate
> (to convince).

> Abrazos from Puerto Vallarta,
> Barbara
> www.tangobar-productions.com
>

Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 23:06:18 -0500
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Walking the tango; joys of simple tango

I forgot. I wrote an article about this situation for the United States
Amateur Ballroom Dance Association. It's on line at www.usabda.org
Click on "amateur dancers" on the right side of the page. Click on "Jul/Aug"
issue. It's on page 17 of 40. The article is "The Karate Kid learns tango."

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
It only cost $1000 to fix my computer.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Walking the tango; joys of simple tango

> Well Barbara:
> Try this. Give them the figures they want. When they can't execute them,
> tell them "all that glitters is not gold. You don't have the skill yet.
> Skill requires axis, frame, posture and balance. You're not going to learn
> it in two months."Or better yet, dance poorly with Al to give them a
> sample
> of bad dancing. Part of the problem is beginners need a baseline to
> determine what is "good" dancing.
>
> I'm reminded of the old TV program "Kung Fu" with David Carradine. The
> kung
> fu master would always say something like "grasshopper. You must learn
> patience to learn." Well tango is the same way. Some things can't be
> rushed.
>
> Michael
> Leaving for NY on Thursday
>
>
> -----

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:42:30 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Walking Backward

As we all know, the woman arrives at tango with years of practice
walking backwards in her daily life. Plus, think how often she
twists, pivots and steps back while at the grocery store, work, etc.
Seriously, the fundamental skill of walking backward takes some
effort, and bad habits learned early take twice as long to eliminate
later on.

Short list of instructions to help new-beginner women avoid bad
technique:
- "Keep your heels down" (moving heel)
- "Step on the beat" (fully change weight on the beat)
- "Juntitas las patitas" (feet close together)

That list fixes (i.e. helps fix) 90% of bad habits.

Short list for adv-beginner women:
- "Keep your heels down"
- "Stretch your soas and achillies, don't reach"
- "Push-off, Move axis through space, don't reach"
- "Flowing motion with the floating leg"
- "Settle into the hips"

Good technique is not so much about the feet, rather we want a good
foundation in the core of the body, and the way the legs float and
push off.

Stage or Social Tango?

I think a lot of teachers simply repeat what their teacher(s) taught
them without examining whether it really works, or whether it works
for all people. Also, a huge percentage of traveling teachers are
stage stars with ballet background. In contrast, a huge percentage of
tango students are not ballet-trained and are not athletic 20 year olds.

Layered learning:

Learn a good foundation before adding details. Even if you go on to
stage dancing, I think it is better to have a foundation in social
tango. That is, moderate, relaxed steps with balance. If you want to
add a specific decoration with the foot, or a dramatic reach for
certain movements, that should be an added layer on top of a more
moderate or universal foundation, after balance and good-following
have been achieved.

Many Difficulties caused by Poor Language:

Several common difficulties for the ladies are: walking stiff-legged,
walking in a crouch, leading with the butt, arching the back,
stepping too big, lifting up on the hips. These difficulties can be
made worse by common teacher language:

- Walking stiff legged can be caused by telling her to have
straight legs
- Walking in a crouch can be caused by telling her to walk on her
toes.
- Arching or Leading with the butt can be caused by telling her to
reach
- Stepping too big can be cause by telling her to step big.
- Stiff hips can be caused telling her not to move her hips

Careful word-choice helps a lot, by creating self-images of proper
movement. Feedback is needed to avoid mis-communication. I work
carefully not to use any of the above language. I have found one very
simple phrase to HELP avoid those problems:

"Keep your heels pointed down".

Helping language for the floating leg: "Stretch your soas (lower-
tummy), stretch your achilles, float your leg. For the supporting
leg, "settle into your hips" (tango-hips, not salsa-hips), "don't go
up on tip-toes".

This single, simple (fairly simple) request of keeping heels down
helps avoids tippy-toes, crouching, stiff-legs, butt-sticking-out,
arching, long-steps, reaching. It also prepares her for spiraling
smoothly (because her soas and lower tummy are accustomed to
stretching), and ochos (because she isn't reaching before the pivot
is finished).

Axis moves through space: Push off rather than reach.

A stride in tango is about moving the axis through space. Reaching to
step can cause the axis to tip and connection to break. This takes
time to acheive, but it is helped if the woman learns to be stable on
and push off from the supporting leg while relaxes the floating leg,
using it more like a pendulum than an active, muscular leg.

Avoiding injury

Poor movement (arching or reaching, plus spiraling the body) can
cause injury. (Ask around. A number of famous dancers have injured
their backs.) Yeah, I know a lot of 20-year old stage star who arch,
reach, step huge, go way up on toes. I would say that they are not
yet injured!

Plus, I don't teach many young, athletic dancers from ballet. Even
when I teach ballet dancers, I have found that the language of,
"heels down", "relaxed leg", "don't go up on ball of foot" "settle
into the hip" (difficult for them!) helps them to avoid looking like
ballet-dancers-trying-to-do-tango.

On Apr 11, 2006, at 7:43 AM, burl burl wrote:

> ...answer--for instance, how exactly should they step backward.
> They have usually been told 3 different things by three different
> guys who have no idea, and now they want a forth opinion.
>
> They want to know: do they step back first, leaving both hips
> level with the floor and then bring both hips back over their
> feet? Should their hips start moving back as they are stepping
> back or do they wait until the back leg is straight. Does the
> traveling foot go up on their toe as the foot brushes past the
> planted foot? Is there ever a time when both legs are straight or
> is only the back leg straight when the heal comes down? How does
> the woman's back step differ from the mans? Is it all much simpler
> than this and she just has to walk like a cat and forget about
> details?
>
> yours
> Burleigh

Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:12:16 -0700
From: burl burl <burlq7@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Walking Backward

Tom and Sergio I think you for the very detailed answers, but like everyone else I have been told 3 or 4 different ways to do just about everything in tango so I would like to clarify a few points:

Tom-your repeated calls for sinking into the hip are at direct odds with other teachers (I mean the real kind like you find in New York). They believe the hips should travel level backward and that if you sink into a hip this throughs your axis off when you start the inevitable back-ocho. If one hip rides slightly high around in the ocho the upper body spirals. If you mean sink into both hips then I don't understand how you can do this without sticking your butt out, which you have cautioned against.

Your short list of what to tell a begginer squares with what I have heard elsewhere. Except for keeping the heels down. They believe this is a purely stylistic point, and that what you do with your moving foot is up to you. However the majority seems to side with you.

Sergio;
My followers want Salon Style which at least in New York seems to be synonymous with close embrace that opens very slightly in a V and shifts to accomadate the steps (but the embrace is still sacred in some kind of way which nobody has yet to explain to me when it is and isn't sacrificed for a fancier move). They say (ie the women I practice with) they are worried about the line their backward reaching leg makes when it straightens out and the heel comes down. If that tells you what style we are dancing I'll be impressed.

Anyway, thanks for your time.

yours
Burleigh

Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG> wrote:
As we all know, the woman arrives at tango with years of practice
walking backwards in her daily life. Plus, think how often she
twists, pivots and steps back while at the grocery store, work, etc.
Seriously, the fundamental skill of walking backward takes some
effort, and bad habits learned early take twice as long to eliminate
later on.

Short list of instructions to help new-beginner women avoid bad
technique:
- "Keep your heels down" (moving heel)
- "Step on the beat" (fully change weight on the beat)
- "Juntitas las patitas" (feet close together)

That list fixes (i.e. helps fix) 90% of bad habits.

Short list for adv-beginner women:
- "Keep your heels down"
- "Stretch your soas and achillies, don't reach"
- "Push-off, Move axis through space, don't reach"
- "Flowing motion with the floating leg"
- "Settle into the hips"

Good technique is not so much about the feet, rather we want a good
foundation in the core of the body, and the way the legs float and
push off.

Stage or Social Tango?

I think a lot of teachers simply repeat what their teacher(s) taught
them without examining whether it really works, or whether it works
for all people. Also, a huge percentage of traveling teachers are
stage stars with ballet background. In contrast, a huge percentage of
tango students are not ballet-trained and are not athletic 20 year olds.

Layered learning:

Learn a good foundation before adding details. Even if you go on to
stage dancing, I think it is better to have a foundation in social
tango. That is, moderate, relaxed steps with balance. If you want to
add a specific decoration with the foot, or a dramatic reach for
certain movements, that should be an added layer on top of a more
moderate or universal foundation, after balance and good-following
have been achieved.

Many Difficulties caused by Poor Language:

Several common difficulties for the ladies are: walking stiff-legged,
walking in a crouch, leading with the butt, arching the back,
stepping too big, lifting up on the hips. These difficulties can be
made worse by common teacher language:

- Walking stiff legged can be caused by telling her to have
straight legs
- Walking in a crouch can be caused by telling her to walk on her
toes.
- Arching or Leading with the butt can be caused by telling her to
reach
- Stepping too big can be cause by telling her to step big.
- Stiff hips can be caused telling her not to move her hips

Careful word-choice helps a lot, by creating self-images of proper
movement. Feedback is needed to avoid mis-communication. I work
carefully not to use any of the above language. I have found one very
simple phrase to HELP avoid those problems:

"Keep your heels pointed down".

Helping language for the floating leg: "Stretch your soas (lower-
tummy), stretch your achilles, float your leg. For the supporting
leg, "settle into your hips" (tango-hips, not salsa-hips), "don't go
up on tip-toes".

This single, simple (fairly simple) request of keeping heels down
helps avoids tippy-toes, crouching, stiff-legs, butt-sticking-out,
arching, long-steps, reaching. It also prepares her for spiraling
smoothly (because her soas and lower tummy are accustomed to
stretching), and ochos (because she isn't reaching before the pivot
is finished).

Axis moves through space: Push off rather than reach.

A stride in tango is about moving the axis through space. Reaching to
step can cause the axis to tip and connection to break. This takes
time to acheive, but it is helped if the woman learns to be stable on
and push off from the supporting leg while relaxes the floating leg,
using it more like a pendulum than an active, muscular leg.

Avoiding injury

Poor movement (arching or reaching, plus spiraling the body) can
cause injury. (Ask around. A number of famous dancers have injured
their backs.) Yeah, I know a lot of 20-year old stage star who arch,
reach, step huge, go way up on toes. I would say that they are not
yet injured!

Plus, I don't teach many young, athletic dancers from ballet. Even
when I teach ballet dancers, I have found that the language of,
"heels down", "relaxed leg", "don't go up on ball of foot" "settle
into the hip" (difficult for them!) helps them to avoid looking like
ballet-dancers-trying-to-do-tango.

On Apr 11, 2006, at 7:43 AM, burl burl wrote: